Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:52 PM The Kloss article is brilliant. It shows pretty much similar findings to what I have but goes into much greater detail and some more accurate dates from earlier editions. The main thrust re 'Water is Wide' is interesting and to date it must be the definitive article on this branch of the family. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:36 PM Hi, It's on youtube- two places. The Dubliners' "I Wish (Till the Apples Grow)" also found as online as "Love is Pleasin'." 1964 Release. I wish, I wish, I wish in vain, I wish, I wish, I was a youth again But a youth again I can never be Till the apples grow on an ivy tree. I left me father, I left me mother I left all me sisters and brothers too I left all me friends and me own religion I left them all for to follow you. But the sweetest apple is the soonest rotten And the hottest love is the soonest cold And what can't be cured love has to be endur-ed love And now I am bound for Americ-ka. Oh love is pleasin' and love is teasin' And love is a pleasure when first it's new But as it grows older sure the love grows colder And it fades away like the morning dew. And love and porter makes a young man older And love and whiskey makes him old and grey And what can't be cured love has to be endur-ed love And now I am bound for Americ-ka. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:07 PM Steve- Susan's Complaint isn't related in any way- it's just curious that a similar stanza chanced to have been written. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:58 PM Hi, Lighter-- $1.29, is it on youtube? I've read about that version. Lomax added songs in 1916 and Rambling Boy was one- it appears in the subsequent editions. Unfortunately there's no info given. Steve-- I got a date of 1890 for one of the Songsters so it look like they are after circa 1883 when Radoo was published in a songbook in London by R. Marsh (Bodleian). Here's an interesting text that I've seen so it must have been published before. Fauset lists it as a variant of Butcher Boy. From: Folklore from Nova Scotia collected by Arthur Huff Fauset (1899-1983), New York: American Folk-Lore Society: G.E. Stechert and Co., Agents, 1931. [Must I Go Bound] (Variant 1) - sung by Peter Dyer. Colored. Born in Barcelona, Spain. Aged about 55. Came to the United States at an early age, and settled in Nova Scotia about 20 years ago. Retired grocer, Yarmouth. Must I go bonds[bound], must I go free, Must I love a man that don't love me? And must I act the childish part, To marry a man that'll break my heart? Last night my lover promised me That he would take me across the deep blue sea. But now he's gone an' left me alone, I'm an orphan girl without any home. Must I go bonds[1], must I go free, Must I love a man that don't love me? And must I act the childish part, To marry a man that'll break my heart? There was a place in London town Where my true love sat himself down. He takes another girl on his knee, And tells to her what he won't tell me. Must I go bonds[1], must I go free, Must I love a man that don't love me? And must I act the childish part, To marry a man that'll break my heart? 1. bound |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:51 PM You have to balance similar wording against the use of stock phrases by the broadside writers. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:50 PM Susan's Complaint has similar wording/sentiments in the last couplet but it could easily be co-incidence. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:46 PM I put 18829 in because it was once part of Roud 60 and there are hybrids with 60. Fortey can easily be dated 1887 looking at other songs nearby in the songster. Both 'So it was!' and 'Oh, the Jubilee!' came out in 1887. I have all of the EFDSS journals from 1899 to date. I'll have a look at the Kloss article. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Lighter Date: 01 Feb 17 - 01:47 PM The Dubliners' "I Wish" was apparently recorded in 1963 and released on Jan. 1, 1964. It's worth $1.29 to hear it sung all the way through by the inimitable Ronnie Drew: https://www.amazon.com/Wish-Till-Apples-Grow-Tree/dp/B01KBK3P0A/ref=sr_1_1?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1485974399&sr=1-1&keywords=dubli Lomax's "Rambling Boy" does not appear in the first (1910) ed. of Cowboy Songs. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 01 Feb 17 - 01:38 PM Hi, If you're a cowboy looking for a traditional cowboy song- well here's one from Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax, 3nd edition, 1916 p. 397-398: RAMBLING BOY I am a wild and roving lad, A wild and rambling lad I'll be; For I do love a little girl And she does love me. "O Willie, O Willie, I love you so, I love you more than I do know; And if my tongue could tell you so I'd give the world to let you know." When Julia's old father came this to know,— That Julia and Willie were loving so,— He ripped and swore among them all, And swore he'd use a cannon ball. She wrote Willie a letter with her right hand And sent it to him in the western land. "Oh, read these lines, sweet William dear. For this is the last of me you will hear." He read those lines while he wept and cried, "Ten thousand times I wish I had died" He read those lines while he wept and said, "Ten thousand times I wish I were dead." When her old father came home that night He called for Julia, his heart's delight, He ran up stairs and her door he broke And found her hanging by her own bed rope. And with his knife he cut her down, And in her bosom this note he found Saying, " Dig my grave both deep and wide And bury sweet Willie by my side." They dug her grave both deep and wide And buried sweet Willie by her side; And on her grave set a turtle dove To show the world they died for love. This is a version of the "Cruel Father" broadside (my B version) which has the 'rambling boy' opening. The second stanza is one that borrowed from the opening Nelly's Constancy, 1686. After the cruel father discovers his daughter is in love with the "wild and roving lad" the father presses him to sea, where the lad is killed by a cannonball. His ghost haunts the father that night and later his daughter hangs herself leaving a note that blames her father. It ends with the "Died for Love" stanza. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:47 AM Hi, In Ramsay's "The tea-table miscellany" there's a ballad called Susan's Complaint and Remedy, which begin with the lass bemoaning the loss of her false lover- similar to "Constant lady"- the sentiment is given from stanzas 2: II. Why does my love Willy prove false and unkind? Ah I why does he change like the wavering wind, From one that is 1oyal in ev'ry degree? Ah! why does he change to another from me? However, the first part of the 4th stanza seems to be close to our ballad: IV. But now he has left me, and Fanny the fair Employs all his wishes, his thoughts and his care: He kisses her lip as she sits on his knee, And says all the sweet things he once said to me: Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 31 Jan 17 - 09:16 PM Hi Lighter, I do want Dubliner's version. It's helpful if their source is given- although it may be difficult to ascertain. Steve, I'm not sure of the reason you are bringing "Waly, Waly" into this thread now- I only sense it has something to do with "Must I go Bound,"-- just a guess. I have considered including it as an appendix. I assume you've seen the online article by Jürgen Kloss, October 2010/July 2012 "The Water Is Wide" The History Of A "Folksong". Here's a link: http://www.justanothertune.com/html/wateriswide.html What do you think of it? The other article and it's on my web-site is: Some Notes on "O Waly Waly" by J. W. Allen; Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 7, No. 3 (Dec., 1954), pp. 161-171. Here's a link: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/some-notes-on-o-waly-waly-by-j-w-allen-1954.aspx What do you think of that article? * * * * Steve, Do you think either Fortey songster with Radoo is before 1880? What did you think of the Radoo info in The Right Honourable, 1888? Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Lighter Date: 31 Jan 17 - 06:05 PM Richie & Steve, do you have (or want?) the version of "I Wish, I Wish," recorded by the Dubliners in the '60s? I haven't checked, but it's interestingly different from what I see here. Rewritten lyrics, perhaps, but still essentially "folky." |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 31 Jan 17 - 05:01 PM Looking at the 16th/17th century versions of 18829 I think an attempt should be made to separate 'Waly Waly' from 'The Unfortunate Swain'. In their earliest forms they only have 1 stanza in common and that is the 'leaned my back against an oak' stanza. The probability is that the English lament borrowed this from the Scottish but it could be the other way round. The seminal 'Unfortunate Swain' seems to have been pieced together sometime in the middle of the 18th century. At least 4 of its stanzas come from 17th century ballads. The first 4 stanzas and the 9th are all aabb pattern and 5 to 8 are all abab. Whilst the narrator in printed versions can be male or female in roughly equal numbers the earliest seem to be the male narrator ones. In later versions as one would expect the order of stanzas starts to break down, and goes completely to pot in oral versions. 'The earliest 'Waly Waly' I have is 1727 Ramsay in 5 double quatrains. Orpheus Caledonius of 1733 with tune is in quatrains and has one quatrain different to Ramsay. 'Oh wherefore should I busk my head' is replaced by 'When cockle shells turn silver bells' stanza. Herd/Percy etc. follow Ramsay. Before looking closer at oral versions where there are lots of hybrids can you add to these 16th/17th century versions? |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:13 PM Hi, Somehow I'm back in Ireland!!! Here's a poem which is a rewrite of our "Died for Love" songs. I'm only given the first part that relates to out ballads; From: Day and Night Songs; by William Allingham 1855 XII. THE GIRL'S LAMENTATION. (To an old Irish Tune.) With grief and mourning I sit to spin; My Love pass'd by, and he didn't come in; He passes by me, both day and night, And carries off my poor heart's delight. There is a tavern in yonder town, My Love goes there and he spends a crown, He takes a strange girl upon his knee, And never more gives a thought to me. Says he, "We'll wed without loss of time, And sure our love's but a little crime;"— My apron-string now its wearing short, And my Love he seeks other girls to court. O with him I'd go if I had my will, I'd follow him barefoot o'er rock and hill; I'd never once speak of all my grief If he'd give me a smile for my heart's relief. In our wee garden the rose unfolds, With bachelor's-buttons, and marigolds; I'll tie no posies for dance or fair, A willow twig is for me to wear. For a maid again I can never be, Till the red rose blooms on the willow tree. Of such a trouble I heard them tell, And now I know what it means full well. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 30 Jan 17 - 09:28 PM Hi, Just included "Every Night When the Sun Goes In" on my site as one of many related ballads and songs: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7d-every-night-when-the-sun-goes-in.aspx It has a photo by Sharp of Effie Mitchell, two of her children and her mother, Hannah. There's a better photo at R.V. Williams site but I couldn't figure out how to copy it. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:56 PM Steve: When you click on "The Right Honourable" link -- it takes you to between page 171 and 172. you should see top of page 172. Scroll down on the right bar control and you'll see the music. or, Just enter: "The Right Honourable" Radoo at Google books and it'll take you there. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:47 PM Hi, This is the longest Sharp MS version not published: The Blue Eyed Boy- sung by Hezekiah Crane of Flag Pond, Tennessee on September 3, 1916. Collected by Cecil Sharp. In North Carolina I once did dwell With a blue-eyed boy I loved so well, He courted me my life away And then with me he would not stay. He took me to some farmer's house, And sit me down upon a chair, And took a strange girl on his knee, He told her that he wouldn't tell me. I know, I know, the reason why, She has more gold and silver than I; Her gold will rust, her silver will fly, And then she will be as poor as I. I'll go upstairs and I'll sit down, Take a pen and ink and write it down, I'll lay my head upon the bed, And think of what dear mother said: Go dig a grave both wide and deep, Place a marble stone at my head and feet, and on my heart place a snow-white dove, To show the world I died for love. And this is one of the shortest ones: I Wish, I Wish- sung by Jacob Sowder of Callaway, Virginia on 17 August, 1918 from Sharp's MSS. I wish, I wish, I wish in vain, I wish I were a child again; But that I ain't I never will be Till apples grow on a willow tree. Your gold shall rust and silver shall fly But constant love shall never die. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:09 PM Fortey was printing over a very long period. I haven't got the dates handy. However a lot of the songs in the same songster are datable. I'll have a look. Still can't get at the book at all. What do I click on when I get to the initial page? |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:30 PM Hi, This is another clearly related version that has to many changes to be a version-- with stanzas similar to perhaps to Careless Love: Sharp's EFSSA, II 1932 edition p. 268: No. 189 Every Night when the Sun goes in- Sung by Mrs. EFFIE MITCHELL at Burnsville, N. C , Oct. 6, 1918 1. Ev'ry night when the sun goes in, Ev'ry night when the sun goes in, Ev'ry night when the sun goes in, I hang down my head and mournful cry. True love, don't weep, true love, don't mourn, True love, don't weep, true love, don't mourn, True love, don't weep nor mourn for me, I'm going a way to Marble town. 2 I wish to the Lord that train would come (3 times) To take me back where I come from. True love, don't weep, etc. 3 It's once my apron hung down low (3 times) He'd follow me through both sleet and snow. True love, don't weep, etc. 4 It's now my apron's to my chin (3 times) He'll face my door and won't come in. True love, don't weep, etc. 5 I wish to the Lord my babe was born, A-sitting upon his pappy's knee, And me, poor girl, was dead and gone, And the green grass growing over me. True love, don't weep, etc. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:13 PM Hi, Steve, the music (Right Honourable, 1888) is on p. 171, just move up a little past the music to where it's called "A wild little American negro song. . ." Even though it's a fictional account the music is provided and there would be no logical reason for them to "make up" facts about it. They call it a Civil War song and imply that it's an older plantation song. Not enough proof but so far I've not found any info about it or even the word "Radoo" as being a known slang for "adieu." Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:00 PM Hi, Here's the link again to The Right Honourable, 1888: https://books.google.com/books?id=vFGcpvuOGdUC&pg=PA171&dq=%22The+Right+Honourable%22+radoo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjrrng3urRAhWG It seems to me that Radoo would precede "There is a Tavern" which borrowed from it to make the chorus. Right now I have them both appearing around 1883- since the Bodleian has 1877-1884 and both appear in different songbooks for R. Marsh. Steve, can you date either of the Fortey Songsters? I was thinking c. 1890 but that doesn't help prove an earlier date. One correction: in my last post the extra stanza appears in William Hill's later "Students' Songbook" editions but not his 1883 one. Hill's 1883 text and Adam's 1891 text are nearly identical. I can find little info on F.J, Adams now- I did find some several years ago but I can't find it. I'm finishing up Sharp's US versions. Here's a version in Sharp's EFSSA II, 1932. Clearly related but not really a version. Hmmmm! No. 190 I Love my Love- Sung by Mrs. ELLEN WEBB at Cane River, Burnsville, N. C, Sept. 21, 1918 Hexatonic (no 4th). 1. All my friends fell out with me Because kept my love's company; But let them say or do what they will, I love my love with a free good will. 2 Over the mountain I must go, Because my fortune is so low; With an aching heart and a troubled mind For leaving my true love behind. 3 The Powers above look down and see The parting of true love and me. 'Tis as hard to part the moon and sky As it is to part true love and I. 4 When I have gold she has her part, And when I have none she has my heart; And she gained it too with a free good will, And upon my honour I love her still. 5 The winter's past and summer's come, The trees are budding one by one; And when my true love chooses to stay, I'll stay with her till the break of day. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Jan 17 - 01:19 PM 'Shall I be bound' must be treated as a commonplace. It's wording varies quite a lot so it might be possible to trace its closest source using that information, but don't just look at our 2 songs. It could have come from elsewhere. Your link to The Right Honourable didn't work. It just took me to Google books where there were no full texts available. I spotted the likely chapter but couldn't get access. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 30 Jan 17 - 11:20 AM Hi, Still looking at Radoo, and There is a Tavern. Radoo has the Must I go bound (Shall I Go Bound) stanza which is found in two of the US versions I've put on so far. Here it's the last stanza: Must I go bound, must I go free, Must I love a young man that won't love me? O no, O no, that never shall be, Till apples grow on an orange tree. [Jane Hicks Gentry Hot Springs, NC on August 23, 1916 Sharp B] This indicated along with versions collected by Randolph that the "Must I Go bound" text was fairly common in the US and at least in two versions of Butcher Boy. Randloph mention a text from Roxburghe, which I presume is: Shall I be bound, that may be free? Shall reason rule my raging mind? Shall I love him that loves not me? No, though I wink, I am not blind. [Maid's Revenge upon Cupid and Venus] Radoo was published by 1884 [Bodleian date 1877-1884] and I still think it predates Tavern in the Town and was used in its creation along with Butcher Boy. I have a copy of William H. Hills There is a Tavern in the Town dated 1883 from "Students' Songs." Even though he had edition in 1880 and 1881 I think the 1883 date is about right. From the Bodleian print comes this information: Written by W.H. Hills. Arranged by B. Forms Music Francis Day & Hunter London, W. Which is not in the Students' Songs editions. Hill's copyright was granted in 1884: Original entry, Apr. 8, 1884, no. 7553. THERE IS A TAVERN IN THE TOWN; by William H. Hills. [47 (C) by William H. Hills, Boston, Mass., as the author, in renewal for 28 years. Renewal no. 1786, Mar. 30, 1911. Original entry in Students songs. Hill's text is missing a stanzas in Adam's 1891 version [at Levy] and there is one text change of one half a line. It's rumored that F.J. Adam's version was first published in 1881 but I have no proof of that yet. Anyone? Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Jan 17 - 09:56 AM No worries! |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 29 Jan 17 - 10:14 PM Hi, Now I see Adam's sheet music which I downloaded is not the first edition and I suppose the presumed edition 1881 edition is missing so the info in the 1888 book means: Much to do about nothing :) So I answered my own question. Back to the drawing board. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 29 Jan 17 - 08:45 PM Hi, Even though "The Right Honourable" is fiction I suppose (the music is provided), it's still dated 1888 which is three years before Adam's 1891 sheet music. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 29 Jan 17 - 08:34 PM OK, I see now-- it was in W. S. Fortey's "The Popular Songster" and also in W. S. Fortey's "Yankee Barnum's Songster"- I didn't ck to see other editions were combined. What did you think of the info in 1888 book, "The Right Honourable"? Here's the link: https://books.google.com/books?id=vFGcpvuOGdUC&pg=PA171&dq=%22The+Right+Honourable%22+1888+Radoo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSqObj3Oj Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 29 Jan 17 - 07:48 PM Hi Steve- if you click the link it takes you to the book, "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" dated 1840. According to several sources[] Radoo is a Creole word for "adieu" and in the 1888 book, "The Right Honourable" it was called "a genuine plantation song." According to the authors, Radoo was learned by Zenobia from a "Southern States woman" who heard it sung on plantation presumably before the Civil War. It was called a Civil-War song and was the African-American "attempt at adieu." Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:28 PM Yes but Radoo is not in that songster. There are several songsters on that page and the one Radoo is in was printed much later by Fortey probably after my sheet music was published. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:07 PM Hi, I don't have access to the the US printing by Turner & Fisher, New York & Philadelphia [no date given] Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:39 PM Steve: Printed: Orlando Hodgson 111 Fleet Street, London You should know he printed at that location between 1836-44. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:29 PM Although "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" is attributed to Jim Crow [AKA Dartmouth "Daddy" Rice] that doesn't mean Rice wrote it or knew the songs in the book. None-the-less it's still attributed to Jim Crow as the author, dated 1840. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:21 PM Steve- I put the link to Radoo on that post above text. The date is 1840. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:16 PM Hi, Two corrections from last post: Title is "Radoo, Radoo, Radoo" and first and last verse the second radoo should have two "oo's" as radoo. Adams based his verses on text from the "Died for Love" ballads and borrowed the form and chorus from "Radoo, Radoo, Radoo" a minstrel song attributed to Jim Crow [Dartmouth "Daddy" Rice] in "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" by Jim Crow, 1840. Here's text of There is a Tavern in the Town" [original sheet music at Levy]: There is a Tavern in the Town. Song and Chorus. The Season's Success. Words and music by F.J. Adams, 1891 There is a tavern in the town, in the town And there my dear love sits him down, [sits him down] And drinks his wine 'mid laughter free And never, never thinks of me. Chorus Fare thee well, for I must leave thee Do not let the parting grieve thee And remember that the best of friends must part, [must part] Adieu, adieu, kind friends adieu, adieu, adieu I can no longer stay with you, stay with you I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree And may the world go well with thee. He left me for a damsel dark, damsel dark Each Friday night they used to spark, [used to spark] And now my love once true to me Takes that dark damsel on his knee Oh! dig my grave both wide and deep, wide and deep Put tombstones at my head and feet, head and feet And on my breast carve a turtle dove To signify I died of love. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:57 PM The 1840 date looks extremely suspect to me! Where is this 'Jim Crow's Vagaries? I have books on Rice and none of them mention this. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:46 PM Hi, The Roud number for "Two Hearst/"Early, Early, by the Break of Day" appears to be Roud 60 and that should be changed since this is a different but related song. I'm working on the US songs today. It appears that Jim Crow's [Dartmouth "Daddy" Rice's] "Radoo, Radoo" published in 1840 is the origin of "There is a Tavern in the Town" or at least it was reworked by F.J. Adams in 1891, as a Tin-Pan Alley/late minstrel type song. Radoo means "Adieu" and is called an old Creole song or as sung by African Americans from South-America. More information about Radoo or the origin of this 1840 song is needed. Here's a link to the 1840 song: https://books.google.com/books?id=SSJYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PT123&dq=%22Radoo+Radoo%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf79b7oejRAhXGOSYKHWp6BOEQ6AE From: "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" by Jim Crow, 1840. Radoo Radoo (Adieu) Radoo, radoo, kind friends, radoo, radooo, radoo, And if I never more see you, you ,you, I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree, And may this world go well with you, you, you. Shall I be bound, shall I be free, free, free, And many is de girl dat don't love me, me, me, Or shall I act a foolish part, And die for de girl dat broke my heart, heart, heart. Give me a chair and I'll sit down, down, down, Give me a pen, I'll write it down, down, down, And every word that I shall write, A tear will trickle from my eye, eye, eye. Radoo, radoo, kind friends, radoo, radooo, radoo, And if I never more see you, you ,you, I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree, And may this world go well with you, you, you. There are two stanzas (two and three) that are vaguely related to the Died for Love songs and their relatives ("Must I Go Bound.)" Steve sent me this but probably didn't know it's origin. It was reprinted after the success of "There is a Tavern." Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 27 Jan 17 - 12:26 PM Hi, I have more info on "Early early". There's a recording by Robert Cinnamond, "Early, Early, by the Break of Day" by Peter Kennedy and one online The Two Hearts by Geordie Robertson which begins: The Two Hearts Early, early by the break of day, Doon by yon green field I chanced to stray I spied a fair maid [continues] http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/68916;jsessionid=3E5997AE75B28D710569B0EA88412D32 A copy of th Irish broadside has been published in Ulster Folklife. Traditional Folk index calls it "Died for Love " III Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 27 Jan 17 - 11:27 AM Hi, Yes, I forgot to mention stanza two is from Picking Lilies/Unfortunate Swain but it's "Will Ye Gang Love" which borrows stanzas. Steve-- Here's an interesting tidbit you may not know and I didn't mention earlier, the first stanza "What A Voice" is similar to (common source)or based on the broadside "A new song called William and Nancy or The two hearts"- a version is in the Bodleian but it's also published in Belfast by Alex Mayne of High Street. An Irish version was collected and the stanza appeared: 'What voice , what voice now is yon I hear? It's like the voice of my Willie dear. Oh, had I the wings, love, I'd feel no fear, But fly forever till I knew thee near.' The text is similar but no other stanzas seem to be in common- let me know what you think, Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Jan 17 - 10:44 AM HI Richie, as I'm sure you're aware this is a definite and simple hybrid. the first 2 stanzas are from 'Deep in Love' group, the chorus I think is peculiar to Scottish versions so probably added there as is the link stanza 3. The following 3 are from BYS, the next is a local composition and the last a commonplace. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 27 Jan 17 - 09:38 AM Hi, I'm still wrapping up UK versions. I finally have the transcription of For Love by Willie Mathieson Listen: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/15020;jsessionid=9AA340DD3D5A4D6DCDEA32656021217A One of teh stanzas was sung in the wrong order, which I've changed. For Love- from Willie Mathieson, learned from Annie Massie, maid at East Toddlehills, about 1894. My lovie stands in yon stable door A combing doon his yellow hair. His curly locks they enticed me But I'll never tell you who is he. Chorus: Oh will ye gang love and leave noo Oh will ye gang love and leave me noo Will ye forsake a lover true And go with the one ye never knew. I was in the garden the other day I pulled a rose baith fresh and gay, I pulled the violets as they grew blue But I little kent what love can do. I was standing at the door one day I saw my love go across the moor My heart grew sick and my eyes grew dim To think my bonnie love left me ahin As lang as my apron it did bide low He followed me through frost and snow But noo its up aye tae my chin My love gangs by but he comes nae in. There is a Tavern in the toon My love gaes in and he sits him doon He taks anithcr girl on his knee And isna that a grief to me. A grief to me and I'll tell you why Because this girl has more gold than I. But her gold it will waste and her beauty fade And this poor girl she will be like me. But I'll tak aff my hose and sheen And I'll follow him through Aberdeen, But I'll scorn him as he scorned me But I'll never tell you who is he. You'll dig my grave both wide and deep Put a marble stone at my head and feet And in the centre two turtle doves To let them know that I died for love. This is a hybrid of "Will Ye Gang Love" and "Died For Love." The title is taken from the latter, Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Jan 17 - 08:31 AM And you've just scratched the surface! What you've mainly learnt here is to take no notice of previous research and do your own. The confusion around 18830 is all down to me, but I'm still not fully convinced it can easily be separated into 2 distinct songs. On narrative certainly but there are too many hybrids if that is the case. You are slowly convincing me and I need to take a closer look at the problem when the book is finished. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 27 Jan 17 - 12:02 AM Thanks for the pointers Steve. "Butcher Boy" came over way before the printed sheet music of 1860 with Jersey City- that's obvious before even looking at the versions. Started the US/Canada headnotes- not too long and with usual errors but here's the intro so far: The origin and fundamental sources of The Butcher Boy have befuddled leading US musicologists from Kittredge(1916) to Cox (1925) and on to Belden (1940). The main source of confusion appears to be the underlying broadsides that in most cases were unavailable. Kittredge, however, had at his disposal the Harvard Library and Belden, despite mentioning two related early sources, The Deceased Maiden Lover and The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire says, "The location is Sheffield park in Pitts's broadside of that title, which comes closest of all British stall prints to the American ballad. . .". Belden was unaware that the Pitts broadside was a later printing of Sheffield Park that had borrowed stanzas from "The Constant Lady/Near Woodstock" broadside which Chappell called "The Oxfordshire Tragedy[]." Leading UK musicologists fared no better. The web of confusion that ensnared variants of "Died for Love," "Love has Brought Me To Despair," "Deep in Love" with "Waly, Waly" and "Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William" is still being regurgitated today. When Broadwood pointed out the melody of "Sailing Trade[]" was used in a version of "I Wish, I Wish" some how the compleely different texts became similar and the ballads were related. With Steve Garham's assistance Steve Roud broke up his Roud 60 into a number distinct groups with different Roud numbers. However, the job is not complete and because of the mixing of stanzas it's difficult for any unanimous categorization. For example, look at The Traditional Ballad Index's entry for Roud 18830 which they assume is variants of Cruel Father but instead is Rambling Boy. In the US Kittredge began by saying, "The piece appears to be an amalgamation of "The Squire's Daughter" (also known as "The Cruel Father, or, Deceived Maid") with "There is an Alehouse in Yonder Town" (well known as a student song in this country under the title "There is a Tavern in the Town")." "The Cruel Father" ballads are somewhat different ballads with a different plot: The cruel father when he finds out his daughter is in love with a prentice boy sends him to sea where he is killed in a battle by a cannonball. The prentice's ghost haunts the father that night who come home to find his daughter has hung herself with a rope. She leaves a note blaming her father for her death. The similarity of Cruel Father with "The Rambling Boy," is the opening line, the suicide and the "Died for Love" ending; with the Butcher Boy" the similarity is the suicide and "died for love" ending; with the later reduction "The Maidens Prayer" the similarity is the suicide and the "died for love" ending. So it's clear that Kittredge's statement shouldn't have "Squire's Daughter" in it. Certainly "There is an Alehouse" is very similar but is missing the suicide. Rambling Boy has the suicide and the reason for the suicide is similar. When Kittredge says Alehouse is "well known as a student song in this country" it should be noted that the similarity is that one stanza was taken from Alehouse/Brisk Young Lover and There is a Tavern was written around that one stanza-- it's not as if they are the same song-- but obviously the stanza is similar. So Kittredge's statement became the standard-- but in 1925 Cox refined the amalgamation--Cox now based the ballad on four different songs instead of two. Cox states in Folk Songs of the South[], "The Butcher Boy" is made up of modified extracts from (1) "Sheffield Park"; (2) "The Squire's Daughter" (called also "The Cruel Father, or, Deceived Maid"); (3) "A Brisk Young Sailor" (or its abbreviated version, "There is an alehouse in yonder town"); and (4) "Sweet William" ("The Sailor Boy"). Cox kept Kittredge's two fundamentals (The Cruel Father, as pointed out-- is a poor choice) and added Sheffield Park and Sweet William. Additionally he said that Alehouse was an abreviation of Brisk Young Sailor which has an added opening stanza[]. Cox did not know that Sheffield Park, the Pitts broadside, was reworked by adding stanzas of another broadside[] (see above) and it is the other broadside's stanzas that are found mixed with Butcher Boy. Sheffield Park was printed circa 1770 as "The Unfortunate Maid" and later about 1790 as "The Youth from Sheffield Park." The Pitt's print of the early 1800s was reworked with a new ending derived from stanzas of Constant Lady." So it's not really Sheffield Park but Constant Lady that should be mentioned by Cox. Sweet William was mentioned by the English writers[] as having the same melody under the title, The Sailing Trade[]. There are other similarities-- Kidson's Lancashire version has the same ending stanzas-- but again the plot is different (same as Cruel father's plot is different)-- alas and alack!!! The Butcher Boy is not made up of Sweet William although the endings stanzas may be held in common. Fifteen years later Belden and the Missouri Folklore Society published "Ballads and Songs" named, I believe, after Kittredge's 1917 article in the JAF of the same title. Belden's headnotes contend (as mentioned earlier) that Sheffield Park "comes closest of all British stall prints to the American ballad." Belden is in fact referring to the Pitt's reworded broadside and the added stanzas of "Constant Lady" as being "closest." The two early broadsides he mentions-- 1. The Deceased Maiden Lover and 2. The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire are essentially the same. The Deceased Maiden Lover, however similar, is not the ballad used-- it's 2. Constant Lady. "The Deceased Maiden Lover" is a reworking of lutenist Robert Johnson's "A Forsaken Lover's Complaint" c. 1611. Belden's assertion may be responsible for "Deceased Maiden Lover" being listed as a version of Died For Love in Sam Henry's Songs of the People, by the editor Gale Huntington. Yes, it's a tangled web. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Jan 17 - 09:54 AM Until I see evidence to the contrary I'm happy to accept the Butcher's Boy was crystallised in America and that any British versions are derived from or influenced by the American oecotype. I believe that one British version actually mentions 'Jersey City'. FWIW my thoughts on evolution of BYS: The very influential c1840 broadside was derived from the 18thc 'The Lady's Lamentation'. As far as I can see the 'Brisk Young Sailor' first stanza is present in all early versions where the 'alehouse' stanza is also present so they came together as a job lot (along with the 'belly low' stanza). All 3 occur together right into the collecting period in the longer versions so from at least 18thc to modern day. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 25 Jan 17 - 08:24 PM Hi, Cruel Father, my B, has a distinct plot but there aren't many versions. Two broadsides and the chapbook Answer and two trad versions-- the other trad versions from the US are weak connections but should be included. I already said it was a different ballad. However it does have the opening of Rambling Boy, the suicide and the "died for love" ending. Cruel Father is related to Queen of Hearts-- which borrows its plot- although not in a convincing way. It's easy to see Rambling Boy, Cruel Father and Queen of Hearts forming another related family. The do have the "Died for love ending and for all practical purposes disappeared in by the mid-1900s. As far as "Brisk Young Lover/There is an Alehouse"-- I'm now thinking Alehouse was first and Brisk Young Lover added an opening stanza. The Scotch versions go back a ways and I believe the "alehouse" stanza was part of the "I Wish I Wish" versions. So you can't say the "I Wish" versions are versions without the "alehouse stanza." I posted the three Scotch version to make this point-- the "I wish" songs are not little fragments with the "I wish" stanza-- they also have the alehouse stanza. The Alehouse/I Wish and Foolish Young Girl are fairly similar and there are two endings: 1. Til and apple grows on an orange tree and 2) she gathers flowers, makes her bed and dies of a broken heart [Constant Lady]. There are a number of "Butcher Boy" versions in the UK and the version from the US/Canada may have be adapted in the US but they also may have come from the UK initially. I'm starting the North American version very soon so that should unlock more of the mystery, Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:58 PM Hi Richie, With songs of this type it doesn't make any difference what others in earlier years have said about them. In my opinion the only way to make this very difficult decision for your own purposes is to amass as many of the extant versions as possible, with broadside texts playing a primary role, and initially see which ones can easily be separated from the pack. You might want to impose your own rough rules in order to differentiate as I have done. You've already set me thinking about separating Rambling Boy and its Answer which I had put together. Stanzas that start with 'I wish' are extremely common in songs of this type and must not be taken as relating one song to another. Another approach is to establish stanzas and groups of stanzas that should be considered commonplaces and then leave them out of the equation initially. The 2/3 suicide stanzas occur in at least 4 of the songs under consideration for instance. The 'Dig my grave' stanza has attached itself to a whole host of songs. You only have to look at the 17th century texts I sent you to see that several of the stanzas in 'Deep in Love' were already commonplaces then. At various points in the last 4 centuries both broadside writers and singers have strung together whole catalogues of these stanzas to make new songs. I said it wouldn't be easy. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:52 PM Hi, Heres a trivia question. Where did the text from the 4th stanza of Butterworth's "A Brisk Young Sailor" come from? FOLK SONGS FROM SUSSEX published in 1913- tune Mr. Ford. [7] A brisk young sailor courted me A brisk young sailor courted me, He stole away my liberty, He won my heart with a free good-will, He's false, I know, but I love him still. There is an alehouse in yonder town, Where my love goes and sits him down, He takes another girl on his knee, And don't you think that's a grief to me? A grief to me! I'll tell you why, Because she's got more gold than I, Her gold will waste and her beauty blast, And she'll become like me at last. O what a foolish girl was I To give my heart to a sailor boy, A sailor boy although he be, I love him better than he loves me. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 24 Jan 17 - 11:50 PM Here's Llyod's version of Pitman's Love song that he revived from John Bell of Newcastle whose version dates c.1830: I Wish I Wish (or: the pitman's love song)as sung by A. L. Lloyd (Trad) I wish my love she was a cherry A-growing on yon cherry tree And I myself a bonnie blackbird How I would peck that sweet cherry I wish my love she was a red rose A-growing on yon garden wall And I myself a drop of dew How on that red rose I would fall I wish my love was in a little box And I myself to carry the key I'd go in to her whenever I'd a mind And I'd bear my love good company I wish my love she was a grey ewe A-grazing by yonder riverside And I myself a fine black ram Oh on that ewe how I would ride My love she's bonnie, my love she's canny And she's well favoured for to see And the more I think on her my heart is set upon her And under her apron I fain would be I wish my love she was a bee-skip And I myself a bumble-bee That I might be a lodger within her For she's sweeter than the honey or the honeycomb tea. This is obviously a different song but it does have the I Wish opening. I've seen Pittman's Love song grouped with version of out ballad I Wish I Wish. It's curious that many of the "I Wish I Wish" variants (like the three posted in this thread by Scottish singers) also have the alehouse stanza- does that mean they aren't versions of I Wish I Wish anymore? Aren't they all the same- whether two stanza like Joseph Taylor's, or threes stanzas or six stanzas? The singers, the Scottish School and Roud consider the alehouse stanza to be part of I wish. So how are they separate variants? Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Richie Date: 24 Jan 17 - 05:00 PM Hi, TY Steve, Lighter. Most are: Roud 60 Brisk Young Lover Foolish Young Girl; Irish Boy Roud 495 I Wish I wish Roud 18828 Maiden's Prayer ("She was a maiden young and fair") I noticed a sub-set of Roud 60 called "There's an Alehouse" and after looking at the versions the first stanza of Brisk Young Sailor is left off almost as if it was once added on. I think that's why MacColl didn't mention the Brisk Young Lover songs. I'm wondering also about Pitman's Love song and the 'I Wish I wish" songs. Is there a relationship? Lloyd apparently thought they were related. Richie |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Steve Gardham Date: 24 Jan 17 - 02:57 PM And there's probably quite a few Richie hasn't got yet, but don't forget we're talking about a whole genre of songs here. We've identified at least 10 so far that should be considered separate songs. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II From: Lighter Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:16 PM >close to 200 UK versions Wow. |
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