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BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Senoufou Date: 01 Feb 17 - 12:18 PM '...self-righteous Aspergers sufferers...' ?? Not sure at whom you're directing that remark Steve, but my niece is a genuine 'Aspergers sufferer' and it isn't a term to be used lightly. Taking the moral high ground isn't a case of self-righteousness, merely standing up for what one believes to be true and good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Feb 17 - 12:01 PM Bloody Nora, there seems to be a crowd of self-righteous Asperger's sufferers posting here this afternoon! That's the last time you'll try THAT style of tongue-in-cheekery around here, innit, Jack! 😂 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jack Campin Date: 01 Feb 17 - 11:56 AM Maybe this will join 1984 in the best seller lists? Rogue Male First published several months before Britain was at war. I wonder what publisher now would have as much guts as Chatto and Windus did back then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: bobad Date: 01 Feb 17 - 11:48 AM Not really a surprise as Jack is a proponent of Communism and that is a favoured tool oft employed by them to eliminate those who fail to toe the party line. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Senoufou Date: 01 Feb 17 - 11:32 AM To even think of assassination of a person is totally evil. No-one with any humanity in them at all would suggest such a course of action. Surely we've come a long, long way from savagery? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Iains Date: 01 Feb 17 - 11:21 AM Ake. The snowflakes get quite horrid when they have a meltdown. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 01 Feb 17 - 11:16 AM Given the history of the US, only a very special kind of person would suggest such a thing....even in jest. That's three suggestions of assassination that I have spotted on this forum since the election, and I haven't had time to do much reading. I don't remember any such suggestions from "the hate filled right wing nuts" here, when President Obama was elected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Iains Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:48 AM I think the electronic footprint of such a scheme would have a jackboot stamp on it with great rapidity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jack Campin Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:34 AM Wouldn't it be a better move to crowdfund an assassination? It wouldn't come cheap, but somebody with the wherewithal - a privately owned howitzer or access to a cruise missile control room, say - must have their price. (The one think you know about anyone in the military is that they can be bought - they wouldn't be in it otherwise). How would you go about setting up such an initiative? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: bobad Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:29 AM Jim is usually self regulating and can be relied on to eventually realise when he is bogged down in futile thread creep arguments. He is also usually apologetic for such lapses... Lol..........you've got to be kidding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Bonzo3legs Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:10 AM Well I'm all ready for The Transports!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:56 AM I posted that prematurely by accident. I'll start again. Now excuse me everybody. Whoa. Hold your horses. Now I'm doing my dog-with-bone bit here but I don't care. At 03.51am today, Teribus posted the following: Perhaps someone on this forum could direct me to any map produced by Palestinian National Authority.... Carroll, Greg F, Steve Shaw, DtG have been asked many times in the past and to-date none of them have ever been able to produce one. The statement about being asked to produce maps is untrue, blatantly so. Two of us named there have already complained that we have NEVER BEEN ASKED ANY SUCH THING. We've been met with a load of bluffing, spittle-flecked aggression and insults, instead of a simple acknowledgement that the statement is untrue and is being withdrawn. The man who made this statement is well known here for picking his adversaries up sarcastically on tiny details itn their posts,yet here he is, making unsubstantiated, baseless accusations. Note, by the way, that I've decided to use some of his own favourite terminology in compiling this post. Teribus, withdraw the remark. Folks, we should all refuse to take this man seriously until he does so. People who through testosterone-fuelled hubris can't acknowledge mistakes are not to be trusted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Iains Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:53 AM PFR you are totally correct. It is monty pythonesque each time I visit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:45 AM Teribus - I could spend time countering every point you put, conducting in depth research, making certain I am fully prepared on every detail of every issue that obsesses you... but.. eff that... I've got much more essential commitments & interests in life to get on with... I actually respect your intelligence and articulate writing style.. but have been on this planet long enough to know a reactionary bore when I'm in the company of one... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:43 AM Now excuse me very body. Whoa. Hold your horses. Now I'm doing my dog-with-bone bit here but I don't care. At 03.51am today, Teribus posted the following: Perhaps someone on this forum could direct me to any map produced by Palestinian National Authority.... Carroll, Greg F, Steve Shaw, DtG have been asked many times in the past and to-date none of them have ever been able to produce one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:41 AM Why is it that actual facts, like those above What, facts like I have discussed Palestinians lands with you? I have never discussed that with you. Neither you or anyone else can counter or dispute that so you are left with leaving your little scottie dog calling people names. :D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:37 AM Bobad - Jim is usually self regulating and can be relied on to eventually realise when he is bogged down in futile thread creep arguments. He is also usually apologetic for such lapses... Iains - "PFR I believe the thread is about the message, not the messenger." .. seriously...???.. this is mudcat BS... threads are indivisibly about both...!!!!! .. and all the more laughable for it... 🙄 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Stu Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:35 AM "Will the snowflakes be all over this like another rather nasty rash?" Oh dear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:33 AM Tell me pfr, what aspect of my "supposed" megalomania did you find so disappointing? - Establishing the fact that there is no Petition to not allow trump into the UK? - Clarifying that there was no Trump imposed world-wide ban on Muslim immigration to the USA? - Highlighting that election promises made by Trump are far from being MUCH, MUCH WORSE than those of the Nazi Party Why is it that actual facts, like those above and those presented by Iains, that show what Trump has done is not without precedent and no different to what has been done by others is so disturbing to you? Neither you or anyone else can counter or dispute any of them - so you are left with calling people names. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Iains Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:23 AM PFR I believe the thread is about the message, not the messenger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: bobad Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:21 AM Well PFK, I reserve the right to challenge Carroll whenever he injects the "Israelis" (read Jews) into a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with them. If that makes it a borefest for you perhaps you might consider addressing your displeasure to him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:10 AM Teribus Oh I am sure you have been asked No I have not but thank you for proving that you have made it up. Not only can you not find anything but you have taken to making up more to justify your first lie. where you and the rest of your mates leapt to his defence. As far as I can see Jim needs no help from me. Even if he did, I could not provide any as I really do not know anything about the Palestinian lands. Ake. Still nothing to add but pointless abuse I see. When will you make a valuable contribution to anything instead of just jeering from the sidelines? Little wonder that so many of your posts are deleted. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Feb 17 - 09:02 AM Iains - forgive me for not knowing who you are, or which side of the Atlantic you reside... You're not one of those mudcat personas that stick in the mind for any memorable reason.. But your use of the insult 'snowflake' does indicate an unoriginal uncreative mind, so reliant on pre-fab fashionable political peer group sanctioned language.....???? ... of course I could be wrong.... 😜 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Iains Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:53 AM And more. Despite the Schengen Zone. ID for EU train rides. To my mind this is a far more dangerous progression. Will the snowflakes be all over this like another rather nasty rash? http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/told-airport-style-identity-checks-coming-train-travel/181552#more-181552 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Iains Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:46 AM Seems the EU is jumping on the border control bandwagon. Will the snowflakes start protesting this as well? http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-eu-borders-idUSKBN15G4EI?il=0 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:40 AM ...and this was such an interesting thread to read before the inevitable Teribus megalomania & Bobad monomania borefest hijacked and effed it right up.... 😣 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:12 AM My how the world has changed since the election of DJ......all the lies distortion and misrepresentation being exposed on this forum. Well done Mr T, I thought I was the only one to recognise DtG's passive aggressive tendencies. :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: bobad Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:02 AM Anyone who has visited Israel, and has evidence of it on their passport, cannot visit Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen. Meanwhile, 16 Muslim states, including Yemen, Iran, Iraq and Syria have a blanket ban on Israelis entering their countries. No outrage about that but, then again, why would there be when our resident megaphones for the regressive left blare on about how the Jews control governments and media and are the cause of anti-Semitism in the Labour party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:01 AM Oh I am sure you have been asked, just cannot be bothered to track through every thread on this forum where Jom might have trotted out this particular one of his pet hobby-horses and where you and the rest of your mates leapt to his defence. As far as "your word" goes? I wouldn't trust you or your word as far as I could pitch an Admiralty cast anchor. And your current "passive/aggressive" act doesn't fool anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Feb 17 - 07:39 AM so no future comments about Palestinians and any desire on their part for a two-state solution from you either as you claim to know nothing about it. Absolutely spot on Teribus. No future comments, no present comments, no past comments. Still no evidence of my ever being involved then? Why did you claim I was? DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 01 Feb 17 - 07:26 AM Thanks DtG, so no future comments about Palestinians and any desire on their part for a two-state solution from you either as you claim to know nothing about it. Of course what that does bring into play what were the only recognised and officially recognised "borders" of the Mandate of Palestine defined and established under the authority of the League of Nations in 1923 - An area representing 23% of the original 1920 Mandated Territory of Palestine (The other 77% having been allocated to the Arabs of Palestine for their sole settlement) in which anyone could settle anywhere within its boundaries, Jew, Christian, Muslim. Still no takers on the acceptability of those countries that exercise a universal ban on entry of Israeli citizens? No protests, no placards? No comment on Obama's six month ban? What hypocrites the outraged liberal-left are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Feb 17 - 07:04 AM Well, you have all been asked now - ball is your court. I have already said I know nothing about it. Why ask me? Do I take it by the lack of your providing evidence that I had ever commented on it that you just made up that I had ever been involved in this argument? DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Iains Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:53 AM No Shaw. It is 100% cut and paste. That way you cannot nitpick on punctuation. but it still does not stop a pathetic snipe does it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:42 AM It's exactly what your devious and extremely dishonest posts deserved. You can try to divert away to your silly maps point as much as you like. But you lied. And you are unapologetic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:39 AM The Guardian reports that "The British parliament will hold a debate on calls to cancel Donald Trump's state visit, due to be hosted by the Queen this year, after 1.6 million people signed a petition in support of scrapping or downgrading the invitation.The debate will be held in Westminster Hall on 20 February and will also consider a rival petition in support of the US president's visit, which has 114,000 signatures." These simplistic half-truths fall directly into the lap of so-called 'fake news' stories that have predominantly been whipped up by the same mainstream media who have been complaining about it. What "half-truths?" As far as I can see, this is a reasonably accurate report of what's going to happen. As for the rest rest of your "great post," it's mostly good ol' copy 'n' paste. The excellent grammar and punctuation is a dead giveaway. And if you really want to play a silly numbers game over petitions, how come you didn't mention the four million-plus who signed for a second referendum? Ah yes, nothing quite as effective at producing half-truths and fake news as selective information! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:34 AM Thanks Shaw - that was exactly the response I thought I'd get. No such map exists, no such map has ever even been considered. So whenever anybody ever hears the words "Palestinians" in connection with any mention of a "two-state solution" or any aspiration to any such solution you know that it is complete and utter bullshit. Glad to have got that out of the way once and for all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Stu Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:32 AM "As far as the petition is concerned the heartlands of this campaign as seen from the petitions map is Oxford, Cambridge and central London – hardly representative of the Muslim community of Britain." Unfortunately, this statement renders the rest of your post irrelevant; a clumsy attempt to deflect debate from the core issue at the heart of the petition, the fact people don't want to give legitimacy to an authoritarian who has promoted his family and white supremacists to the White staff and who for many represents a return to the darker politics of the past, as he demonstrated in his campaign. It's utterly irrelevant where the "campaign heartlands" are or what the demographic of the signatories of the petition are; this is an exercise in democracy and the debate is going ahead, exactly as it should. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:24 AM "Well, you have all been asked now - ball is your court." You really haven't got any shame, have you? You lied about several of us and now you're trying to tell us that the ball's in our court? You know where you can stick your map question, don't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:17 AM Great post Iains - unfortunately none of the extremely relevant points that you have raised will be addressed. You on the other hand will be vilified for having made them. Nevertheless please keep it up, I do enjoy reading your extremely informative contributions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Iains Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:02 AM The Guardian reports that "The British parliament will hold a debate on calls to cancel Donald Trump's state visit, due to be hosted by the Queen this year, after 1.6 million people signed a petition in support of scrapping or downgrading the invitation.The debate will be held in Westminster Hall on 20 February and will also consider a rival petition in support of the US president's visit, which has 114,000 signatures." These simplistic half-truths fall directly into the lap of so-called 'fake news' stories that have predominantly been whipped up by the same mainstream media who have been complaining about it. As far as the petition is concerned the heartlands of this campaign as seen from the petitions map is Oxford, Cambridge and central London – hardly representative of the Muslim community of Britain. It should be noted that in Britain, no-one is allowed into the country from those same countries. A visa is required after a vetting process, the same exists in the EU. As far as the USA is concerned, Trump has clearly stated those refugees coming from anywhere in the world will be decided on merit. That is no different to what existed before in the US under Obama. The order does NOT ban all Muslims indefinitely – only those from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen – temporarily, whilst Trump decides from his own experts what should happen permanently. The ban is for 90 days whilst this advice is being considered. Trump is also carrying exactly what he was elected to do, something of a rarity these days. Part of the Executive Order, says the following: "In order to protect Americans, the United States must ensure that those admitted to this country do not bear hostile attitudes toward it and its founding principles. The United States cannot, and should not, admit those who do not support the Constitution, or those who would place violent ideologies over American law. In addition, the United States should not admit those who engage in acts of bigotry or hatred (including "honor" killings, other forms of violence against women, or the persecution of those who practice religions different from their own) or those who would oppress Americans of any race, gender, or sexual orientation." One assumes that most intellectually functioning people would agree with that statement. Largely unreported though is the other side of the story exposed by 'NewsBusters': "Mainstream media networks devoted 57 times more coverage to President Donald Trump's temporary "ban" on travel from seven terror-prone countries than they did to President Barack Obama's permanent ban on Cuban refugees to the U.S." It is estimated that over 70,000 Cubans were killed by Castro and his forces. Where were the protestors and their placards? Like the presidential race to the Whitehouse, Trump was given a huge boost by the media because, as they admitted, it sold papers and drove massive volumes of traffic to their websites – revenues rapidly increased. In 2013 ABC News reported that "State Department stopped processing Iraq refugees for six months in 2011," after the discovery that two al-Qaeda operatives had used the program to enter the U.S. and move to Bowling Green, Kentucky. The ABC report goes on to say that "even for many who had heroically helped U.S. forces as interpreters and intelligence assets. One Iraqi who had aided American troops was assassinated before his refugee application could be processed, because of the immigration delays, two U.S. officials said." Where were the protestors and their placards against Obama's 6 month ban? And here's another strange fact, this time From the BostonGlobe: WASHINGTON — As a senator, Barack Obama offered measured praise for the border control legislation that would become the basis for one of Donald Trump's first acts as president. "The bill before us will certainly do some good," Obama said on the Senate floor in October 2006. He praised the legislation, saying it would provide "better fences and better security along our borders" and would "help stem some of the tide of illegal immigration in this country." Obama was talking about the Secure Fence Act of 2006, legislation authorising a barrier along the southern border passed into law with the support of 26 Democratic senators including party leaders like Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and Chuck Schumer. Where were the protestors and their placards? In the meantime, France, still struggling to assimilate immigrants and their descendants from its former North African and sub-Saharan colonies, has forced many French Muslims to feel discriminated against who see themselves as aliens in the country where they were born or grew up. According to a report in The National, 15,000 French Muslims have left for the UAE alone in the last year, with many more migrating as a direct result of the way they have been treated. Placards anyone? Germany's Chancellor Merkel is to throw out 100,000 Muslims straight back into the very war torn countries they escaped from purely for her own political reasons – she is standing for re-election. Any protestors in London? And when David Cameron stood grandstanding in Tripoli after the extremely violent assassination of Gaddafi that saw an oil producing sovereign state, who was threatening no-one, especially not Britain, with less poverty than Denmark ended in a failed state with 30,000 Muslims killed, 50,000 Muslims wounded and hundreds of thousands of Muslims displaced from their homes – where were the protestors? The Child Victims of War campaign to stop Britain attacking Libya didn't reach 100 signatures. The highly publicised Change.Org campaign for "Justice for the UK Victims of Libyan Terrorism" attracted just 13,500 signatures. The PetitionParliament campaign to "Stop UK companies from profitting from Libyan crisis" attracted just 1 signature. The PetitionParliament campaign to "No UK military intervention in Syria or Libya" garnered just 45 signatures. The PetitionSite campaign "UK: Don't Abandon Libya!" managed just 1,462 signatures. Where were all these protestors when people were appealing for real help? In the USA a petition by Change.Org "Speak Out Now To Stop US Intervention in Libya" gathered 140 supporters. The PeaceInIraq Centre instigated a petition: "President Obama: Put Iraq Back on the Agenda" that managed just 11,600 signatures. All they wanted was a plan for a stronger humanitarian effort to be made in Iraq. A petition called "Stop the War Machine. A Petition for Peace" to Congress achieved just 3,784 supporters. Trump displays a type of malignant narcissism rarely seen in the leaders of modern democracies and the press and been keen to label him. We have yet to see what Trump actually achieves. I suspect not much given the American constitution other than executive powers that Obama created and abused like no other President before him Lastly, it might not have occurred to many of the same protestors that Britain's vote to leave the European Union has left the country in desperate need of trading partners. Last month Britain exported £4.4billion and Imported £3.4billion from America. If Trump gets the hump and decides he is more welcome elsewhere, the liberal left will have done for the working population of Britain exactly what they have done in the last 4 decades. They abandoned the very people who needed their help at the start of a right-wing neoliberal ideology four decades ago that has done nothing since but hollow out the industrial heart of one of the greatest trading nations that ever existed and pushed much of the the working and middle classes into a completely new class – called the working poor. Where are these protestors and their placards when it's really important? A perspective from "true Publica" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:01 AM Well, you have all been asked now - ball is your court. If any of you believe that for one nano-second the "Palestinians" are interested in a "two-state" solution then produce the map, drawn up by them that recognises a Palestine state and the sovereign state of Israel. We all know no such map exists and that the "Palestinians" have no interest at all in any solution bar one that guarantees the complete and utter destruction of the state of Israel and it's Jewish population. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Nigel Parsons Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:59 AM From: David Carter (UK) - PM Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:15 AM I don't think our craven Prime Minister has been filmed holding hands with the leaders of any of the countries which ban Israeli citizens though Teribus. Yes, but was she holding his hand because: A, She likes him? B, He suffers from bathmophobia (fear of steps/slopes)? C, She wanted to be sure where his hand was? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:07 AM Carroll, Greg F, Steve Shaw, DtG have been asked many times in the past and to-date none of them have ever been able to produce one. I should like to inform this forum, the whole world and the universe that I too have never, ever, EVER been asked to produce one either. And though Greg is currently not around, I think I can say with considerable confidence that HE has never been asked to produce such a map either. I can check that if anyone insists. We really are in the realms of alternative facts here, aren't we, Teribus? Or is it post-truth, can't decide... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:24 AM Carroll, Greg F, Steve Shaw, DtG have been asked many times in the past and to-date none of them have ever been able to produce one. I have never commented on anything to do with the subject. Why suggest I have and why would you ask me when I know nothing about it? I can only suggest that you either come up with anything I have said about the Palestinian state or we can assume that you have made it up. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:23 AM Several of the States Teribus cites as an excuse for Trumps tacism are considered fit regimes to sell weapons and instruments of repression to - Syria being typical - Teribus broke his neck defending ammunition and riot control equipment sales to Assad - that support is largely responsible for the present slaughter. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: David Carter (UK) Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:15 AM I don't think our craven Prime Minister has been filmed holding hands with the leaders of any of the countries which ban Israeli citizens though Teribus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Feb 17 - 03:58 AM This has been raised and discussed over and over again in arguments we have had - it has been raised as an excuse for Israeli atrocities as if one cancelled out the other This present ban has been put into place by America, the leader of teh Western World - not by countries already in religious disputes with Israel over their treatment of Muslims Al such behaviour generated by religious intolerence is unacceptable - Americas behaviour is just that and it is backed by our Government As things stand at present, it stands to unleash a world wide religions war - Isis has welcomed Trump's behaviour - that says what needs to be said One racist act does not justify another - we ca only influence the politicians who govern us Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 01 Feb 17 - 03:51 AM "While Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party and coalition government support the bill, it has been met with fierce opposition from Palestinians, Barack Obama's administration, the EU and others in the international community in favour of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict." Since when have the Palestinians ever been "in favour of a two-state solution"? Perhaps someone on this forum could direct me to any map produced by Palestinian National Authority, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, Hamas or Hezbollah that shows what they see as being the borders of the "two-states" they think the "Palestinians" are working towards. Carroll, Greg F, Steve Shaw, DtG have been asked many times in the past and to-date none of them have ever been able to produce one. Can't see any meaningful reference to Trump in that Independent Article Jom, so like most of your links it serves no purpose whatsoever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 01 Feb 17 - 03:31 AM As it has been brought up by Jim and taking into account that all these protests have been triggered by an executive order from the current US President temporarily banning immigrants entry to the USA from certain countries. Perhaps all those supporting such protests could explain why previously they have been totally silent and not raised one squeak about all the countries that have a ban in place that refuses entry to their countries if you are Israeli or to anyone who even has an Israeli stamp in their Passport? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Feb 17 - 03:11 AM "I think the semites would be happy for you to stop 'defending' them, maybe stop mentioning them at all." And I think the world would be a safer place if people like you woud stop trying to defend atrocities by dishonest name calling and suppression of facts Those "semites" you refer to are "self-hating" Jews if they don't toe the regimes line. You have proof of the claim that anybody who criticises Israel is Anti-semite - feel free to produce evidence - otherwise, the accusation remains what it has always been - an effort to defend ethnic cleansing and land seizure. Now - put up or piss off - as they say in the best of circles - your squalid behaviour fouls the atmosphere. Jim Carroll Trump's contribution to ethnic cleansing. "The Israeli parliament has begun a week-long debate on the final adoption of a bill that would legalise thousands of 'wildcat' Jewish settlement homes on privately owned Palestinian land in the West Bank. The Regulation Bill would legalise at least 3,900 Israeli homes built without permission from the government, in 54 of the 'wildcat' settlements known as 'outposts'. The legislation stipulates original owners of the land would be given either generous financial compensation or land elsewhere. If approved, it would be the first time Israel has applied its own civil law to land it recognises as Palestinian-owned in the West Bank, law professor Amichai Cohen told AFP. While Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party and coalition government support the bill, it has been met with fierce opposition from Palestinians, Barack Obama's administration, the EU and others in the international community in favour of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) has called it a "declaration of war", and Israel's Attorney General Avichai Mandelblit reportedly told Mr Netanyahu earlier this month that he would not defend the legislation against legal challenges because he believes it violates both Israeli and international law. The bill was originally due to pass into law on Monday, but in opposition members of the Knesset tabled 500 revisions and requested more than a month of further debate in protest. Around 2,000 people in support of the legislation demonstrated outside the building while MKs debated its future. The week-long discussion is a compromise pushed through by the Knesset House Committee, after which the bill will be voted on. It is expected that parliament will approve it in its final form. The international community views all Israeli construction in the West Bank and East Jerusalem over the 1967 Green Line as illegal, whether authorised by the Israeli government or not. Israel has made several bold new policy moves when it comes to settlements since US President Donald Trump was sworn into office 11 days ago, including plans for thousands of new Israeli homes in existing settlements. The Regulation Bill was reportedly taken off the Knesset slate in 2016 while Prime Minister Netanyahu's Likud party waited for Mr Obama - who was critical of settlement building - to leave office. The Independent, 31 January, 2017 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 31 Jan 17 - 10:14 PM more trolls than Peer Gynt |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: bobad Date: 31 Jan 17 - 09:29 PM Don't listen to Shaw, Robo, he and Carroll are the worst trolls on this forum, among other things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 17 - 08:39 PM You are siding with the worst troll on this forum, robomatic, when you defend bobad against Jim. The post you're defending is a typical example, though not the worst. Just in case you didn't know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: robomatic Date: 31 Jan 17 - 08:31 PM Jim Carroll: Oh the cowardice - bleedin' antisemitic troll Again: Pot, Kettle. I think the semites would be happy for you to stop 'defending' them, maybe stop mentioning them at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Jan 17 - 08:29 PM I think it's important that in these serious times, we retain a little humo(u)r. If you missed it before, take a look at the link Jack Campin posted above: Trump is a Bam. Thanks, Jack. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 17 - 08:01 PM "Rod Liddle is the editor of the Spectator. One of the UK's foremost political publications." The Spectator is a rock-solid Tory rag with an undignified roster of recent editors which includes Nigel Lawson, Boris Johnson and the estimable aforementioned Rod Liddle. It is owned by the billionaire tax-avoiding Barclay brothers, who also own the Telegraph. Just the kind of light reading for a socialist such as yourself, akenaton, with such ideal role models for you at the helm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 31 Jan 17 - 07:59 PM Getting confused as to who has said what again Jom? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 17 - 07:15 PM "Rod Liddle is the editor of the Spectator. One of the UK's foremost political publications." Who - you mean this Rod Liddell? His comments have repeatedly caused controversy, and his acrimonious divorce in 2004 from Rachel Royce received much attention from the media. He was accused of racism for making remarks about the African-Caribbean community and for the content of his posts to an online forum. A November 2011 article by Liddle in The Spectator about the trial of two men involved in the murder of Stephen Lawrence led to the magazine being prosecuted for breaching reporting restrictions. A court hearing was held in June 2012, in which The Spectator pleaded guilty to contempt of court and accepted a fine of £5,000 plus costs.[5][6] Or this one? Liddle's Immigration Is A Time Bomb was broadcast by Channel 4 in 2005. The complaints that followed it included that he should not have allowed British National Party leader Nick Griffin to speak unchallenged. Ofcom adjudicated that the programme was fair, and the complaints were dismissed. Liddle subsequently argued, after Griffin was acquitted in February 2006 of two charges of inciting racial hatred, that the charges were "too ephemeral, too dependent upon the mindset and political disposition of the juror, and upon what is happening outside of the courtroom, on the streets."[24] Or this one ? Alleged misogyny and racism[edit] In August 2009, in his Spectator blog he wrote about Harriet Harman, deputy leader of the Labour Party, in unflattering terms. Liddle began the article by asking: "So — Harriet Harman, then. Would you? I mean after a few beers obviously, not while you were sober."[26] Tanya Gold asserted in The Guardian that Liddle had delivered a "tissue-thin polemic." Pointing out that it was The Spectator's cover story that week, Gold wondered if, after 100 years of striving to improve women's rights, whether "we're back in the schoolyard – or is it the brothel?"[27] Rachel Cooke in The Observer nearly two months later recalled finding Liddle's piece "so disgusting I flushed violently all the way from my breastbone to my forehead when I first read it. I looked like I had German measles."[28] Liddle asserted two months later that the Harman column "was supposed to be a parody of guttural, base sexism", a joke he assumed readers would understand. After the negative response from Gold (and then Cooke, among other female journalists) he continued: "And then I suppose I came to the conclusion – gradually – that I must have got it wrong."[29] In June 2014, he said that of those he had offended, Harman was the one person to whom he would apologise.[30] In November 2009, again for The Spectator website, he offered "a quick update on what the Muslim savages are up to," a brief article about the stoning to death of a 20-year-old woman in Somalia after she was accused of adultery, and the similar death of a 13-year-old the year before. He made remarks, considered sarcastic, that read: "Incidentally, many Somalis have come to Britain as immigrants recently, where they are widely admired for their strong work ethic, respect for the law and keen, piercing, intelligence."[31][32] In December 2009, on his Spectator blog, Liddle referred to two black music producers, Brandon Jolie and Kingsley Ogundele, who had plotted to kill Jolie's 15-year-old pregnant girlfriend, as "human filth" and said the incident was not an anomaly. He continued: The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community. Of course, in return, we have rap music, goat curry and a far more vibrant and diverse understanding of cultures which were once alien to us. For which, many thanks.[33] When he was accused of racism, Liddle said he was instead engaging in a debate about multiculturalism.[34][35] In March 2010 the Press Complaints Commission (PCC) upheld a complaint against Liddle, who became the first journalist to be censured over the contents of a blog, because he had not been able to prove his claim about the crime statistics.[36] After the publication of London crime figures in June 2010, The Sunday Telegraph suggested Liddle was largely right on some of his claims, but that he was probably wrong on his claims about knife crimes and violent sex crimes.[37] Independent editor rumour and Millwall supporters website[edit] The Guardian reported on 8 January 2010 that the expected purchase of The Independent by Alexander Lebedev, a Russian billionaire, would be followed by the appointment of Liddle as editor.[38] Roy Greenslade wrote on 11 January that the reports were provoking a "major internal and external revolt" by The Independent's staff and readers.[39] The stories about Liddle's posts on Millwall Online apparently further reduced the likelihood of his being offered the job.[40] Finally, on 19 February, Stephen Brook of The Guardian reported that Liddle was no longer in the running for the post.[41] Tim Luckhurst, Professor of Journalism at the University of Kent, argued that Liddle's chance of editing The Independent was removed "by the people behind a viciously intolerant campaign of liberal bigotry".[42] In January 2010, The Mail on Sunday and The Observer drew attention to allegedly racist and misogynist comments posted under the username "monkeymfc"—a name Liddle has used—on Millwall Online, a fan club web forum with no official connection to Millwall Football Club. Liddle at first attributed some of the comments to opposition fans logging in under his name to embarrass him. He later admitted he had written some of the posts that were being criticised, including one in support of the BNP excluding Black and Asian people from the party.[43] Another post, in which he joked about not being able to smoke at Auschwitz,[44] led to his being asked to explain what he meant in The Jewish Chronicle.[40] While he said in June 2014 that his comments were taken out of context, he does not regret making them. "No. Never. Absolutely not. I thought about my mates at Millwall Online, God I respect them so much more than these other people, these ghastly fucking people."[30] Stephen Lawrence, Lee Rigby, disabled and transgender people[edit] In November 2011, an article by Liddle for The Spectator suggested the trial of two men accused (and later convicted) of murdering Stephen Lawrence would not be fair.[45] It was referred to the Attorney General (Dominic Grieve) by the judge for possible contempt of court,[46] and he ordered the jurors not to read it. Having decided that it may have breached a court order, Grieve passed the case on to the Crown Prosecution Service and the Director of Public Prosecutions.[47] The decision that The Spectator was to be prosecuted by the CPS for breaching reporting restrictions was announced on 9 May 2012, with a court hearing scheduled for 7 June, although Liddle as the author was not himself liable for prosecution.[5] Fraser Nelson, the magazine's editor, announced that the prosecution would not be contested,[48] and the magazine pleaded guilty at the hearing. The magazine's fine was £3,000, plus £2,000 compensation to Stephen Lawrence's parents and £625 costs.[49] In January 2012, Liddle claimed that many people in the UK were "pretending to be disabled" in his column for The Sun,[50] an opinion defended by James Delingpole who thought "Rod's point is well made".[51] Frances Ryan in The Guardian accused him of "belittling something that on a daily basis affects real people" who can be "a huge benefit to society. Maybe for a month Liddle would like to try that."[52] On 23 May 2013, Liddle wrote about the murder of soldier Lee Rigby near the Royal Artillery Barracks in Woolwich, London. In the original version of a blog article for The Spectator, he referred to the perpetrators as "two black savages".[53] After many objections to his language use,[54] this phrase was modified.[55] Liddle apologised.[53][56] In May 2015, the Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO) upheld a complaint from Trans Media Watch that Liddle had been discriminatory towards Emily Brothers, a blind and transgender Labour candidate at the 2015 general election, in two Sun columns published in December 2014 and January 2015. In commenting in the way he had Liddle had breached two sections of the editors' code.[57][58] "Or this one "So, Crispin Blunt MP feels hurt because laws proscribing amyl nitrate [sic] (or 'poppers') would criminalise the entire gay community. ... I would have thought that the requirement for amyl nitrate to relax the sphincter muscle and lube to accommodate entry was God's way of telling you that what you're about to do is unnatural and perverse. Or your body's way of telling you – your call. So eeeeuw. ... Crispin and others can always use a jemmy [crowbar] instead.[64]" Surely you mean Rod Liddell, the extremist right wing Homophobic, misogynistic, racist journalist who doesn't think twice (if at all) about insulting non-whites, homosexuals and women Must sign up to anything he has to say!!! But I can see why you respect him - a father-figure, no doubt "You can tell a man who boozes, by the company he chooses", And the bleedin' pig got up and walked away" As the song goes "I will discuss things that have actually happened, I will discuss things on what the principles involved have actually said." No you won't - you will only discuss the alternative truth that this shit-pot generates You have no more cojones than your spineless mates - though, in your case, it's understandable considering your spectacular foot-in-mouths Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 31 Jan 17 - 06:47 PM Rod Liddle is the editor of the Spectator. One of the UK's foremost political publications. "Another one bites the dust" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 17 - 06:42 PM Rod Liddell is a shallow career polemicist. Barking mad. Him agreeing with you is like saying that Mickey Mouse agrees with Donald Duck about Scooby Doo being the world's greatest intellect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 31 Jan 17 - 06:29 PM The end of "liberalism" as explained by Rod Liddle......Mr Liddle agrees with my view that the battle against the liberal myth comes from both left and right of the political spectrum......Mudcat "liberals" pay heed. The end of "liberalism" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 31 Jan 17 - 03:18 PM I will discuss things that have actually happened, I will discuss things on what the principles involved have actually said. What I will not do is enter into any discussion based on your suppositions and wilder flights of fancy on what might happen in the future. Reviewing your last post there is not one single thing that you have stated in it that meets the criteria detailed in my first paragraph. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 17 - 03:01 PM "oh, the irony!" Oh the cowardice - bleedin' antisemitic troll "Now Stu and myself reckon that the Nazi Party one was much worse," meaningless paper Teribus Trumps poison is in the eating not what he says In a matter ow eeks he has managed to fuck up what little co-operation there was between those fighting Isis and has breached the constitution and is firing those who try to live up to it - he is a traitor to his country His Syrian promises will disappear like smoke at one word from I can't ever remember a world-wide petition opposing a newly instituted President, nor can I remember millions taking to the streets immediately he took office You lied when you said you weren't a supporter - or maybe you just didn't have the bottle to admit it, like all of you people who haven't tha balls to stand up for what you support. What a spinelessly dishonest shower you all are puppet-master Putin Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 31 Jan 17 - 02:50 PM Jom, I believe that the point of difference being discussed between myself and Jack Campin centres on our difference of opinion as to whose manifesto was worse. That of Donald Trump (Six points) or Hitler's 1933 Nazi Party Manifesto (With it's 25 points) - Now Stu and myself reckon that the Nazi Party one was much worse, Jack has yet to reply (Not really interested in what you think). By the way it is Jack Campin who appears "to be labouring under to simple-minded impression that you need to write things down in a manifesto" - taking it as being read that in any election campaign Election Promises = Manifesto. It has yet to be found that whatever Trump is doing is unconstitutional. But so far: 1: There is no petition at all that calls for Trump to be denied entry to the UK - To state that there is is a lie. 2: There is no blanket ban on Muslim emigration or entry to the USA. There is a Temporary ban on immigration applications from selected countries A look at what Trump ordered: ___ SYRIA Trump's order directs the State Department to stop issuing visas to Syrian nationals and halts the processing of Syrian refugees. That will remain in effect until Trump determines that enough security changes have been made to ensure that would-be terrorists can't exploit weaknesses in the current vetting system. ___ REFUGEES Trump ordered a four-month suspension to America's broader refugee program. The suspension is intended to provide time to review how refugees are vetted before they are allowed to resettle in the United States. Trump's order also cuts the number of refugees the United States plans to accept this budget year by more than half, to 50,000 people from around the world. During the last budget year the U.S. accepted 84,995 refugees, including 12,587 people from Syria. President Barack Obama had set the current refugee limit at 110,000. The temporary halt to refugee processing does include exceptions for people claiming religious persecution, so long as their religion is a minority faith in their country. That could apply to Christians from Muslim-majority countries. ___ EXTREME VETTING Trump's order did not spell out specifically what additional steps he wants to see the Homeland Security and State departments to add to the country's vetting system for refugees. Instead he directed officials to the review the refugee application and approval process to find any other security measures that can be added to prevent people who pose a threat from using the refugee program. During the Obama administration, vetting for refugees included in-person interviews overseas, where they provided biographical details about themselves, including their families, friendships, social or political activities, employment, phone numbers, email accounts and more. They also provided biometric information, including fingerprints. Syrians were subject to additional, classified controls that administration officials at the time declined to describe, and processing for that group routinely took years to complete. ___ OTHER IMMIGRATION Trump's executive order suspends all immigration from countries with terrorism concerns for 90 days. The State Department said the three-month ban in the directive applied to Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia and Yemen — all Muslim-majority nations. The order also calls for Homeland Security and State Department officials, along with the director of national intelligence, to review what information the government needs to fully vet would-be visitors and come up with a list of countries that don't provide it. The order says the government will give countries 60 days to start providing the information or citizens from those countries will be barred from traveling to the United States. Barring any travel to the U.S. from those seven countries, even temporarily, appears to at least partially fulfill a campaign promise Trump made to ban Muslims from coming to the United States until assurances can be made that visitors are properly vetted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: bobad Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:58 PM Did you memorise your Nazi quotes from your training days, by the way? Jim Carroll This from someone who runs crying to the mods to silence those who call him out for the little fascist that he is.............oh, the irony! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:39 PM "What else would you expect to read in a NAZI Party Manifesto" 26 - and we want really cool uniforms that'll look far more sexy chic and designer label than those really drab itchy uniforms worn by the Britisher pig dog Tommies. 27 - oh and while we're at it, the best guns in the world, and tanks, and planes, and rockets that look like they are out of the future... 🚀 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:38 PM Did you memorise your Nazi quotes from your training days, by the way? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:36 PM "What else would you expect to read in a NAZI Party Manifesto Jim?" Isn't this what is happening in the U.S. at present - a president attempting to over-ride the constitution and sacking collegues who insist on obeying it? You appear to be labouring under to simple-minded impression that you need to write things down in a manifesto You've put this mind-numb argument before - it can't be true because its not what they put in their manifesto. Thought you didn't believe in the printed word (unless it supports your own idiocy) Make up your mind - you can't pick-'n-mix in these arguments. What Trump is doing is unconstitutional and is being ruled so by the judiciary, until he closes it down Don't know why I'm explaining this to you anyway - you're not one of his supporters, are you? My arse you're not Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:22 PM Jim Carroll - 31 Jan 17 - 01:10 PM "25 In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State," {Point 25 of 25 taken from the 1933 Manifesto of German Nazi Party} There you go - fascism by definition What else would you expect to read in a NAZI Party Manifesto Jim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:10 PM "25 In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State," There you go - fascism by definition - Mussolinis bundle of staves. The state should be the servant of the people, not its dictator Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:04 PM "Every time you invoke Hitler another white nationalist gets his wings." The only argument these people are prepared to offer for Trump is that he is the people's choice - none of them with either tackle the facts of his behaviour or its implications - I make the Hitler analogy as an example of the people having made the choice they did, then and now. As things stand at present I don't believe there to be a cat's chance in hell of Trump pulling of a fascist coup - he is happily in the process of alienating all those elements necessary for one to take place. The judiciary are opposing his unconstitutional behaviour, the mass media has been dismissed crudely as "liars", the security services were the first to be put in the cross-hairs because of their reporting on Russian involvement..... all necessary coup-fodder. German Fascism was a product of the times - a failed revolution leading to mass disillusionment, mass poverty due to an international depression and stringent reparation demands and a historical scapegoat - the Jews. I don't think any of this exists internally so far in the U.S. (can't even blame the Native Americans!!), but I'm not so sure of beyond your borders There is little doubt that Trump will continue to use the Muslims as scapegoats, but the implications of a holy war against Islam is beyond both reach and reason for him at present. In the meantime, the Islamophobic shit he is kicking up in Europe is, I believe the immediate problem - six European elections in the offing, all with Ultra-Right candidates waiting in the wings and cheering your man on. Add a sprinkle of defeated religious fanatics, light the touch-paper and hastily retire...! My comments on Hitler are aimed at our home grown bunch of Mudcat sickos who have been whittling away since I was a member. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:04 PM You are completely wrong Stu, I have no wish to see violence from either side. I explained my position fully in another post which has been conveniently(for the "liberals") deleted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 31 Jan 17 - 12:50 PM "Trump's election promises add up to something VERY MUCH WORSE than the Nazis' manifesto." - Jack Campin What were Trump's election promises? Here they are: 1: Regenerate and rebuild US infrastructure - creates jobs in the US construction and steel industries. 2: The Great Wall of Mexico. 3: Comprehensively confront and defeat ISIL. 4: A protected free market for Americans. 5: Stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons. 6: Intention clearly stated to reclaim off-shored jobs, to pay down the national debt, while keeping China at bay as an economic rival. Jack mentions "the Nazis' manifesto" - Here it is: The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party 1 We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples. 2 We demand that the German people have rights equal to those of other nations; and that the Peace Treaties of Versailles and St. Germain shall be abrogated. 3 We demand land and territory (colonies) for the maintenance of our people and the settlement of our surplus population. 4 Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman. 5 Those who are not citizens must live in Germany as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens. 6 The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen. We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favour of the party without regard to character and fitness. 7 We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich. 8 Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately. 9 All citizens must possess equal rights and duties. 10 The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all. Therefore we demand: 11 That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished. 12 Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits. 13 We demand the nationalization of all trusts. 14 We demand profit-sharing in large industries. 15 We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions. 16 We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalisation of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small trades people, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities. 17 We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land. 18 We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race. 19 We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law. 20 In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State. 21 The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centres, by prohibiting juvenile labour, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young. 22 We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army. 23 We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand: (a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens. (b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language. (c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich. Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved. 24 We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the principle: COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD 25 In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations. The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states. The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives. I KNOW which of those lists sound scarier to me Jack. Now what were Trump's demands Jack? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Stu Date: 31 Jan 17 - 12:19 PM "Trump's election promises add up to something VERY MUCH WORSE than the Nazis' manifesto." Balderdash. This sort of hyperbole helps no-one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: robomatic Date: 31 Jan 17 - 12:03 PM Every time you invoke Hitler another white nationalist gets his wings. Donuel: LOL We should remember that we in the U.S. have been spoiled by wealth and luck. Neither are forever. We have experienced brushes with demagoguery in the past. Perhaps Andrew Jackson. Lincoln, our hero, definitely assumed great power and was declared a demagogue by his opponents. Huey Long comes to mind. Ever read "All The King's Men" by Robert Penn Warren? I understand there's been a run on "1984" by George Orwell, which is an important book and a work of genius, but only partially apropos to our situation. Other great works that approach totalitarianism from the inside are: "Darkenss at Noon" by Koestler, "Brave New World" by Huxley, and their somewhat progenitor: "We" by Zamyatin. It is too early to tell if Trumpism can develop into something like Hitlerism. I do not think it is the same thing, although an important factor is that many people think Trump is mentally diseased. The big question is how far this penetrates into the populace, and I don't see it going too far, because of typical American diversity (even if you limited the sample to 'white' people) and our truly revolutionary freedom of speech. And while the fact of President Trump makes me queasy, the thought of President Pence makes my bowels clench. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jack Campin Date: 31 Jan 17 - 11:36 AM Every time you invoke Hitler another white nationalist gets his wings. The problem with invoking Hitler is that it reassures reactionaries that they aren't that bad. The Nazis have ended up as the paradigm of evil and almost by definition are thought of as the worst possible. Trump's election promises add up to something VERY MUCH WORSE than the Nazis' manifesto. If he gets his way, in 100 years' time Hitler will be a footnote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Stu Date: 31 Jan 17 - 11:34 AM "I do not know who will be beating up on who, but it certainly will not be pleasant for the US populace." Sound like Ake can't wait for Trump's kristallnacht. Nice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Jan 17 - 11:15 AM I just watched "London Has Fallen" a very recent, very violent, very gloriously stupid action movie regarding the near total [CGI] destruction of London landmarks in an attempt to assassinate the USA President on a [state ?] visit... The President and his heroic bodyguard fought back and killed scores of terrorists, mercenaries, and assorted henchmen, as if they were mere skittles... Dunno if Trump might be a bit too old to cope with all the running, climbing, ducking, and jumping.. let alone the car and helicopter crashes... 😜 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: robomatic Date: 31 Jan 17 - 11:11 AM Backwoodsman- Thanks for your comment. Refer to mine from Date: 30 Jan 17 - 02:32 PM All Hail Sally Yates. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Donuel Date: 31 Jan 17 - 11:05 AM Jim you are a bit of an important one note melody. You might not know but a guy over here named Glen Beck warned of the possibility of a fascist takeover, He did this for years while calling Obama every name in the book until he even got thrown off of Fox news. With your intelligence I believe it would be best to look for bridges instead of the crevasse. Every time you invoke Hitler another white nationalist gets his wings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 17 - 10:48 AM TRUMP'S and BREXIT'S DEMOCRACY HERE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jack Campin Date: 31 Jan 17 - 10:45 AM What would be the fallout if anything were to happen to him whilst visiting the UK? Most of America would heave a huge sigh of relief that the problem had been dealt with without incurring a lot of domestic aggro. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Jan 17 - 09:54 AM Brown shirts, and brown nosers... Brown must be this season's most fashionable colour amongst elite conservative social circles.... 💩 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 17 - 09:25 AM And still the handful of Trump's behavior refuse to discuss his policies and their implications for the rest of us Yes - we all know what you are Ake and those of us who read your support for what mass-murder Breivik had to say, your support for forcing asylum seekers to wear "yellow-star- like identification, your hatred of liberals and "disease-carrying" homosexuals and now your unqualified for a thuggish bully like Trump have always known what you are. You appear to believe your time has come - just a reminder of what happened last time. "DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: gillymor Date: 31 Jan 17 - 09:15 AM "Call out the Brownshirts!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 31 Jan 17 - 09:08 AM I think you know me better than that D, I mean what I write. Prolonged protests over the policies of a democratically elected government with eventually provoke a response.....I do not know who will be beating up on who, but it certainly will not be pleasant for the US populace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 31 Jan 17 - 09:02 AM What would be the fallout if anything were to happen to him whilst visiting the UK? How much security would be implemented in addressing this question, and in turn what would the fallout be from that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jack Campin Date: 31 Jan 17 - 08:49 AM Scottish comments: Trump Is A Bam |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 31 Jan 17 - 07:30 AM There is now a counter petition saying the state visit should go ahead. This is not as well thought put as the main petition since it assunes the main petition is lomiting free speech, which it isnt. Teribus was not the only one who needed to see the exact wording of the original pwrition. By that as it may, the "counter" petition is currently at 95,448 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 17 - 06:52 AM Headline in the Times today say that a Trump State visit is likely to upset her Maj Nice cartoon showing her saying "One wonders whether one should consider building a wall" - or words to that effect Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Jan 17 - 06:52 AM Well said, Stu and thanks BWM. Both very useful posts in different ways! DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 31 Jan 17 - 06:47 AM I have to say, ake, that sounds very much like "give in, or be beaten up." If you didnt mean it to be read that way, i suggest you find an alternative way of expressing it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Stu Date: 31 Jan 17 - 06:08 AM "Recall all the glory of the British Empire and scare the shit out of Trump!" There was a discussion about this on the news last night, where several commentators were saying the trump camp is distinctly twitchy about The Donald addressing the Commons and Lords in a joint session, as often occurs during state visits. It appear's Trump's low self-esteem might express itself by refusing to address the houses as he feels intimidated by them, and would be worried about any protests from MPs or Lords; he's considered too thin-skinned to deal with any criticism (refer to his tweets). On top of this, it looks like he's going to be foisted on Brenda for far longer than she'd like, and they intend to billet him in Balmoral where he can play golf far away from the plebs he so vocally claims to represent, but who know a fascist when they see one. Of course Theresa The Appeaser and her cabal of witless poshos and right-wing sycophants seem unable to comprehend that their actions have consequences, hence the ill-timed and frankly stupid invite. Brexit has basically rendered us as beggars on the trade table, having to snuggle up to nasty regimes and the sort of feckless bastards we should be rallying against, but of course we have no bargaining power compared to the EU or the far eastern and asian countries. If we looked like a poodle to GWB under Blair, we look like some sort of anal parasite on Trump under May, and this serves neither of our peoples any good in any way. The visit will be interesting for sure, and as long as innocent people don't die (as in the killing of Ian Tomlinson) perhaps the Great Dictator will finally understand some of us still value compassion and humanity above turning a fast buck for your mates and getting white supremacists into the White House. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 31 Jan 17 - 05:26 AM I found this FB piece very interesting... From Heather Richardson, professor of History at Boston College: "I don't like to talk about politics on Facebook-- political history is my job, after all, and you are my friends-- but there is an important non-partisan point to make today. What Bannon is doing, most dramatically with last night's ban on immigration from seven predominantly Muslim countries-- is creating what is known as a "shock event." Such an event is unexpected and confusing and throws a society into chaos. People scramble to react to the event, usually along some fault line that those responsible for the event can widen by claiming that they alone know how to restore order. When opponents speak out, the authors of the shock event call them enemies. As society reels and tempers run high, those responsible for the shock event perform a sleight of hand to achieve their real goal, a goal they know to be hugely unpopular, but from which everyone has been distracted as they fight over the initial event. There is no longer concerted opposition to the real goal; opposition divides along the partisan lines established by the shock event. Last night's Executive Order has all the hallmarks of a shock event. It was not reviewed by any governmental agencies or lawyers before it was released, and counterterrorism experts insist they did not ask for it. People charged with enforcing it got no instructions about how to do so. Courts immediately have declared parts of it unconstitutional, but border police in some airports are refusing to stop enforcing it. Predictably, chaos has followed and tempers are hot. My point today is this: unless you are the person setting it up, it is in no one's interest to play the shock event game. It is designed explicitly to divide people who might otherwise come together so they cannot stand against something its authors think they won't like. I don't know what Bannon is up to-- although I have some guesses-- but because I know Bannon's ideas well, I am positive that there is not a single person whom I consider a friend on either side of the aisle-- and my friends range pretty widely-- who will benefit from whatever it is. If the shock event strategy works, though, many of you will blame each other, rather than Bannon, for the fallout. And the country will have been tricked into accepting their real goal. But because shock events destabilize a society, they can also be used positively. We do not have to respond along old fault lines. We could just as easily reorganize into a different pattern that threatens the people who sparked the event. A successful shock event depends on speed and chaos because it requires knee-jerk reactions so that people divide along established lines. This, for example, is how Confederate leaders railroaded the initial southern states out of the Union. If people realize they are being played, though, they can reach across old lines and reorganize to challenge the leaders who are pulling the strings. This was Lincoln's strategy when he joined together Whigs, Democrats, Free-Soilers, anti-Nebraska voters, and nativists into the new Republican Party to stand against the Slave Power. Five years before, such a coalition would have been unimaginable. Members of those groups agreed on very little other than that they wanted all Americans to have equal economic opportunity. Once they began to work together to promote a fair economic system, though, they found much common ground. They ended up rededicating the nation to a "government of the people, by the people, and for the people." Confederate leaders and Lincoln both knew about the political potential of a shock event. As we are in the midst of one, it seems worth noting that Lincoln seemed to have the better idea about how to use it" It seems there's more than one way to skin a pussy (grabber). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Stu Date: 31 Jan 17 - 05:19 AM "....if the American people are democratic enough to allow him do so." The American people have the right to object to their values and constitution being attacked and hold their politicians accountable, as do we here in the UK. We know you're in favour of a dictatorship Ake, but one fuck of a lot of us are not and we will resist. Peacefully and with the integrity the thugs you support lack. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 17 - 05:16 AM "Glad to see you have stopped even the pretense of being a socialist now ak" Yup America Uber Alles just about does it Now for his Gay closet!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Jan 17 - 04:21 AM Glad to see you have stopped even the pretense of being a socialist now ake. About time you came clean. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 31 Jan 17 - 04:08 AM Don't think the state visit will make a blind bit of difference Joe. Pres Donal John and his administration seem determined to change the US politically and socially.......if the American people are democratic enough to allow him do so. If they do not desist from their childish protests you may find that the new found conservative voice of America may be heard......and that would mean real civil unrest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 17 - 04:07 AM "Recall all the glory of the British Empire and scare the shit out of Trump! Can it be done?" Certainly now with ring-kissers like May Blossom. The Empire was always a force for evil anyway - go look at "Trump Worshippers" like Teribus, for examples of how great it was. The only thing that will stop Trump is to impeach him - I would have thought that his Constitutional criminality would have done that by now anyway "MORE MADE-UP CARROLL SHIT" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Mr Red Date: 31 Jan 17 - 03:57 AM Trump clearly has an arse for a head with so much shit spirting out!!!!!!!!!!!! explains a whole lot of Orange |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Jan 17 - 03:38 AM I dunno. I think the impressive experience of a State Visit to the UK, might make El Trumpo a little nervous. He might feel forced to put his bluster away for a little while. Recall all the glory of the British Empire and scare the shit out of Trump! Can it be done? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Stu Date: 31 Jan 17 - 03:13 AM "There'll be hundreds of thousands of people who'll turn out to let this man know in no uncertain terms that he's not welcome here." Yep, and the police will treat us with contempt, you watch. They'll kettle us, beat us and abuse us for simply exercising our right to protest. Innocent people will be hurt. It'll be ugly, upsetting and totally in the spirit of the new fascist world being constructed by Trump, Theresa The Appeaser, Farage etc. However, we must get through this with dignity and we must retain the one thing our new authoritarian rulers don't have: integrity. We have six million reasons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Bonzo3legs Date: 31 Jan 17 - 03:03 AM Trump clearly has an arse for a head with so much shit spirting out!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 31 Jan 17 - 02:30 AM A bit of an aside but it relates to why we offered a state visit in the first place (and it seems it is unpresidented to offer one in the first year of a presidency) Oliver Letwin on Newsnight said offering was our Ace card and we played it. And he said it in defence of the state visit. Careless analogies like that amuse me: any player of Bridge, Whist or similar games will tell you playing the Ace right at the start is the mark of an amateur: you use it later to control the game, not right at the start when your opposite will just give dross in return. And the same here: as remarked above offering a state visit too early weakens your hand, rather than strengthening it . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 31 Jan 17 - 01:43 AM Still no examples of my "Trump-worship" Shaw. Just another of your baseless accusations flung out without the slightest shred of substantiation - how typical of you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 07:19 PM Your stupidest post ever. I'll leave the comedy for others to exploit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 30 Jan 17 - 06:59 PM Please Shaw give us all an example of this supposed Trump-worship of mine? Your post will have given Akenaton as much of a laugh as it did me. You just haven't been around on this forum long enough Shaw. Ake and I have had some real horrors of arguments in days past, but over the course of time I think that a mutual respect one for the other has developed. As he would be the first to state that although we may be poles apart of certain things we have respect for the manner in which the point of view is put across and I am sure we'd actually enjoy each other's company - you and the rest of the "usual suspects" only seem to seek and enjoy the company of those who wholeheartedly agree with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 06:38 PM Of course it was. All those things. But your Trump worship (not to speak of your Netanyahu sycophancy) disses thousands of Muslims and millions of refugees who are, er, slightly less privileged than old queenie. What's more, I have yet to see you criticise once on this forum, going back years, the most homophobic, mysogynistc bigot on the board, just because he happens to share your distorted world view. Now I'm not accustomed to expressing regret more then once for something I've posted, so carry on milking it if you must (after all, you have nothing else). But do expect your own blatant hypocrisy in your defence of Trump and akenaton to be constantly thrown back at you if you do. Of course, you could easily shoot my fox if you admit to all the deficiencies of these scumbags. But you're no tactician, are you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 17 - 06:38 PM 'the Labour rightists got help from the Israelis with accusations of anti-semitism.' My god, isn't it shocking the power yielded by those perfidious Jews in how they can influence Labour party members into make anti-Semitic statements. Just how do they do it - must be some form of mass hypnosis, that's what I think. But then again they murder Christians – especially Christian children – to use their blood for ritual purposes, such as an ingredient in the baking of Passover matzah so I wouldn't put it past them, right Carroll? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 30 Jan 17 - 06:22 PM What Trump worship Shaw? You are no different to him your veneer is so thin it is almost transparent. Your comment was ageist, misogynistic, disgusting, offensive and horrendously disrespectful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:53 PM Well Teribus, I diss one over-privileged and cosseted old woman, tastelessly I admit (yep, bad call by me), but you diss anyone and everyone who doesn't agree with your Trump-worship. For example, I've been watching demos all over the world on the telly tonight and guess what? Not a gas mask, crash helmet, head-to-toe disguise in sight and not a hint of violence. Cor, these rampant lefties must have lost their bollocks, eh? 😂 And you defend and legitimise akenaton, the worst misogynist that most people will ever have come across either on this forum or in real life. Sanctimoniousness doesn't suit you, old chap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:49 PM Quite right right Teribus - made up shit - but that's the bleedin'Irish for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:22 PM "One third of the British people have admitted to being racist" - Jim Carroll More Jim Carroll "Made-up-shit" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Donuel Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:18 PM Joe Who has Trump's ear? Of course Bannon and his son in law but one of the most unique voices is Joe Scarborough a Republican editorial talking head on NBC. Trump watches Joe every morning. There is reason to believe Trump gauges success based upon that show. There is an opening segment that seems to be talking to Trump exclusively. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:10 PM In response to this from Stu Stu - 30 Jan 17 - 11:28 AM Trumper will be looking forward to GRABBING HER PUSSSSAAAAYYYYY because him and his followers think that kind of thing is all right. Which says a lot about them. we got this from Steve Shaw: Steve Shaw - 30 Jan 17 - 11:31 AM "Unless it's healed up." Care to explain the unacceptable misogynist difference between the objectionable statement attributed to Donald Trump and that equally objectionable one made by you Shaw? That post of yours Shaw speaks volumes about you - and you used to teach children? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:06 PM It really is a waste of time reasoning with people who don't even have the balls to defend what they are supporting Obama was probably the best US President in m lifetime - it's taken Trump aless than a week to prove himself the worst That's what people are supporting with their silence - the graveyards of the world are full of the reult of such support - frim Nazi Germany to Pinochet's Chile and Assad's Syria Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:03 PM I think it's been said above, but I think the petition is not to invite Trump on state visits to the United Kingdom. I can see a "statement value" to that, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. Wikipedia has a pretty good article on state visits, although I might question its statement that "State visits are considered to be the highest expression of friendly bilateral relations between two sovereign states..." I've seen plenty of state visits where the parties involved were not particularly friendly. It would be a shame for other governments to refuse to talk with the U.S. during the Trump administration. Maybe somebody can talk some sense into Trump, since his brain seems to be an empty slate.... -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:44 PM Good list, Dave - and I applaud all those accomplishments. The lack of single payer healthcare in Obamacare was disappointing to me. I think the Obama Administration's biggest failure was failure to pass a comprehensive immigration reform bill. That should have been done in his first two years, when he had a Democratic majority in Congress. I don't understand why that didn't happen, why it wasn't a priority for his first two years. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:24 PM the failure was the last eight years of Democrat Government? Let's have a look at this failure shall we? Ended the 2008 Recession Reformed Health Care Regulated the Big Banks Eliminated bin Laden Threat Withdrew Troops from Iraq and Afghanistan Achieved nuclear Agreement With Iran Achieved World's Largest Trade Agreement International Climate Change Agreement Biggest job creation ever Halved deficit spending Legalised same sex marriage in all states and on and on and on... and on a personal front Obama achieved a second term in office and won the Nobel peace prize. Do you seriously think that the recently elected lunatic will be able to claim the anything like the same achievements? Oh, hang on, yes he will claim them I will rephrase. Do you think will actually do anything like as much good? DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:15 PM Try reading and taking in what people far more intelligent than you are saying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:03 PM "Why would you bother voting for the same old failure?" Surely the failure was the last eight years of Democrat Government? Why should the electorate give them another eight? The people who elected Donal John were the victims of that failure, redundant workers black folks, blue collar America, they wanted action, a president who would do what he said....and it looks like they have got it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Donuel Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:02 PM I am hoping he goes to London for the full Parade REALLY What if Donald is killed by a pen when he lurches forward inside his limo in London when a horse has a shoe nail go through his flesh and the horse wildly gets in front of the limo and Pence has a mishap in the shower that leaves him in a coma and Paul Ryan is dispatched by a rogue exercise machine and Orrin Hatch chokes to death on a Reeses Peanut Butter Cup the President would be Thomas A Shannon Jr. appointed by Obama, schooled in Oxford and William and Mary. That is Until Rex Tillerson is approved kinda like kind hearts and coronets |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 03:03 PM "Over 45% of Americans never bothered voting. If they didn't vote, i don't see they've got anything to bitch about. I can't see this bloke is much different to Bush, Reagan, Nixon...." Well you've answered your own question, haven't you? Why would you bother voting for the same old failure? Unless, of course, you've been educated to the extent of being able to make a real choice... People who don't vote are entitled to bitch just as much as people who did vote. They have to use the same services, are subject to the same laws and PAY THE SAME TAXES as people who do vote.. There are many reasons why people don't vote, one of which may well be that they realise they don't know enough to make an honest decision. To my mind that's a damn sight better than voting because you've been taken in by some populist bigot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 17 - 02:40 PM "If they didn't vote, i don't see they've got anything to bitch about." Always assuming that one or other of the candidates are worth voting for Voting is not an objective in itself - it is there to allow you to choose who you wish to represent you. If none does, the system has failed you - if a large number of people are not satisfied, the system has failed a large number of people. Trump won the support of the most reactionary One third of the British people have admitted to being racist - does their vote produce a fair vote for Britain as a whole consindering there are around a million plus Muslim residents - and many many more none British citizens? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: robomatic Date: 30 Jan 17 - 02:32 PM To me this thread and the notion of spending time on a long sign-up list for preventing a state visit from the President of the United States right after one to the US from Prime Minister May is a case of missing the point - badly. Many people are letting themselves be diverted by bright shiny objects, which is one of the reasons we got into this situation in the first place. We've got a Supreme Court appointment about to be announced and Lord knows what military operations going forward (notice the American casualty we just had in YEMEN?) The New York Times has an article about how the rush to enact travel ban led to chaos. My point about the lack of excitement on prohibiting access to other worldly ne-er do wells is to highlight the extent to which the Trump regime is able to stimulate knee-jerk response. That is not just a symptom. THAT'S A TACTIC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Jan 17 - 02:22 PM PS Ake, that comment wasn't meant to be witty. It was said in utter despair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Jan 17 - 02:20 PM Over 45% of Americans never bothered voting. If they didn't vote, i don't see they've got anything to bitch about. I can't see this bloke is much different to Bush, Reagan, Nixon.... they have all kinds of weirdos. This ban is something that was in his manifesto. Millions of Americans must have voted for it. We don't like it when Americans mess about in our affairs. there was a lot of resentment when Obama made his 'back of the queue' comments. Do we have the moral right to tell elected American Presidents that they are wrong and must do what WE think? From this country - I think it was very clear that people weren't backing Hillary Clinton. I lost count of the number of Americans I said to - if you don't back her, you will get Trump, and he's awful. they simply didn't believe me. or didn't seem to care. Perhaps Trump is what America wants. the election results say so. He fought a successful campaign. Its not a case of being a Klan member. Its case of - are you really sure you know what's going on here - cos I'm not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Senoufou Date: 30 Jan 17 - 01:43 PM I can't for the life of me understand why a State Visit has been offered so very soon after The Thing was elected. Quite a few presidents were never invited for one at all, just 'informal' trips to 'meet' the Queen, nothing fancy. Most waited a couple of years before coming on a formal State Visit to London. But this time, the chap was hardly installed before the Golden Ticket shot through his letterbox. What's the hurry? If he does come, I do hope he won't try to touch the Queen, take her hand (ridiculous, dominant gesture!) or any of that stuff. She certainly won't take kindly to such silliness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 01:37 PM Will the first mod to read this post please change the thread title to BS: Petition opposing Trump's UK state visit. There! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 30 Jan 17 - 01:30 PM That's the third time the wording has been posted on the thread. I notice the thread title is still incorrect though - more 'alternative facts'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jan 17 - 01:17 PM Here's the petition against a State Visit over 1,400,000. You can watch the numbers as they go up on this link. The thing with this one is that those signing will range right across the political spectrum. Ardent royalists will be signing it by the thousands, seeing the visit by this squalid bloke as a serious insult to the Queen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 30 Jan 17 - 01:07 PM Donuel mentioned CNN and NBC are covering it. A search shows even Fox News is mentioning it, though admittedly in as passing a fashion as they can muster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 Jan 17 - 12:46 PM Well at the very least, if Trump visits Scrumpyshire, he will be denied an estate visit... my old mum can't stand the sight of him and wouldn't ever let him in her council house... .. and mum, despite being treated for dementia, still has enough wits about her to tell me how much she is suspicious that Trump is no good and not to be trusted, whenever his face appears on BBC news... If only the USA electorate were as clear thinking as a little old British working class lady in her mid 80s with a serious brain and personality disorder... 😜 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 30 Jan 17 - 12:16 PM Thanks again BWM for actually providing the wording of the petition that has more than a million signatures that says it would allow Donald Trump to visit the UK in his capacity as President of the United States of America - which of course means that there is no petition as detailed in the title of this thread. If I haven't miscounted I posted the link to the actual petition in post #16. Not surprisingly the petition contains the actual wording of the petition... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 12:06 PM There'll be hundreds of thousands of people who'll turn out to let this man know in no uncertain terms that he's not welcome here. If I get the chance to be one of them I'll probably leave my kitchen utensils and crash helmet at home, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 30 Jan 17 - 12:00 PM Of course no one imagines that. Al, though we can picture him fuming if he doesn't get to play with the horses and carriages. But you remember the saying "For evil to succeed it is sufficient if good men do nothing"? We protest his behaviour as unacceptable. Nothing may come of it apart from 1.3 million of us telling each other we are not alone in that view. But that is vastly preferable, however futile in practice, to silent acquiesce. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 17 - 11:42 AM "which of course means that there is no petition as detailed in the title of this thread." Banning people from visiting countries, certainly on the grounds of race or religion, seems to be confined to Trump's America - so far, early days yet. Britain is usually happy to heed to her Master's Voice and jump when required JIm Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Jan 17 - 11:32 AM So what will happen now? Will Turnip suddenly fall to his knees and say - I've been a bad boy. I'm sooooo sorry. i really want the soldiers with tassles on their heads and the royal retards lining up....I am now prepared to be a jolly decent chap from now on. Dream on...ah forgot for a moment that's your normal state. Sleepwalking through the political realities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 11:31 AM Unless it's healed up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 30 Jan 17 - 11:31 AM I posted the wording of the petition because, unlike The Ginger Tosser, his followers and fans, I prefer truth to 'alternative facts'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Stu Date: 30 Jan 17 - 11:28 AM "I've no doubt Queen Liz and President Donal John will get on very well. I don't think either she or Phil are very "liberal" and DJ will charm her." Trumper will be looking forward to GRABBING HER PUSSSSAAAAYYYYY because him and his followers think that kind of thing is all right. Which says a lot about them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 11:26 AM No, Teribus, but it's been clarified more than once, quite early in the thread. Do try to keep up. And try to find slightly more important things to nitpick about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Donuel Date: 30 Jan 17 - 11:23 AM This issue is now being covered by CNN and NBC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 30 Jan 17 - 10:59 AM Thanks again BWM for actually providing the wording of the petition that has more than a million signatures that says it would allow Donald Trump to visit the UK in his capacity as President of the United States of America - which of course means that there is no petition as detailed in the title of this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: MikeL2 Date: 30 Jan 17 - 09:34 AM Hi Bonzo Sorry to about " the real Bonzo". We have for many years taken rescued dogs. Some years ago we took border collie cross that had lost one leg in an accident. He turned out to be a wonderful member of the family and lived for many years giving us friendship and love. Some years ago he died and having to take him to the vet upset me so much that I can't face taking any more dogs because I can't take the pain of this again; much as we love them. Sad time regards MikeL2 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: gillymor Date: 30 Jan 17 - 09:00 AM You really don't want him within arms length of the Royal Snatch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Vashta Nerada Date: 30 Jan 17 - 08:51 AM You have a good laugh now, Ake, but when Trump is out on his ass, we'll laugh hardest. And you don't want him at any state functions in the UK - if he's there with Liz (or perhaps one day soon, her son Charles) he'll insist on being seated on the throne since it's the best chair in the house. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 17 - 08:28 AM "What can you do to stop it being a state visit?" Coomonsense and simple humanity failing, pressure might do the trick, otr at least, expose the Government on where they stand on Trump's policies Nearly two million decent (whoops, sorry ******* "Liberal") Brits have signed the petition to date. Trump's presidency is beginning to bite internationally Six Muslims (so far) have been murdered in a mass shooting in Quebec No doubt more silence from the Mudcat branch of The Klan. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 30 Jan 17 - 08:12 AM No, Big Al. The leader of any country visiting another does mot make it a state visit. If wikipedia is to be relied on - if! - Obama met the UK prime minister and the queen three times in the UK but only one was a state visit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Jan 17 - 08:09 AM What can you do to stop it being a state visit? I suppose we could just have it covered by the Lincolnshire Standard - nobody reads that much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 30 Jan 17 - 08:08 AM I've no doubt Queen Liz and President Donal John will get on very well. I don't think either she or Phil are very "liberal" and DJ will charm her. They say Liz was delighted over the Brexit result and good things come in three's. "Two down an' one to go " says Liz. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 30 Jan 17 - 08:01 AM Mudcat post of the year ,so far, from Big Al Whittle. " I loved that interview with Chuka Umuna. the one where he said Theresa May had to stand up to the president of the USA. This from a guy who wouldn't even stand up to Jeremy Corbyn. My God! the Oscars are going to be insufferable this year!!! " Well said Al, best laugh I've had since Brexit! :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Jan 17 - 07:58 AM Of course its a state visit. he's a head of state. he's not going to wait in that camp in Calais, is he? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 30 Jan 17 - 07:40 AM Here's the actual wording, copied from the petition site - seems clear to me that nobody's trying to stop Trump visiting the UK, just asking for it not to be a State Visit... "Donald Trump should be allowed to enter the UK in his capacity as head of the US Government, but he should not be invited to make an official State Visit because it would cause embarrassment to Her Majesty the Queen. Donald Trump's well documented misogyny and vulgarity disqualifies him from being received by Her Majesty the Queen or the Prince of Wales. Therefore during the term of his presidency Donald Trump should not be invited to the United Kingdom for an official State Visit." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 17 - 07:06 AM Not for the want of trying Doesn't it worry you that two major parties - all the Tories, the right wing of Labour, are dancing tunes played by foreign leaders? It does me Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Jan 17 - 06:57 AM 'the Labour rightists got help from the Israelis with accusations of anti-semitism.' didn't do em much good! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 17 - 06:49 AM " an electable face at the head of Labour. presumably he didn't fancy roughousing it with Corbyn's trots." Nope - the right challenged Corbyn on the basis of his refusing to support the status quo No point in Labour winning seats in Parliament if those who put them there are going to continue losing jobs, rights and remain poor The only ones to benefit out of that are the political careerists. Just as Trump got the help of the Russians, the Labour rightists got help from the Israelis with accusations of anti-semitism. The Fascists in Franbce are now publicly declaring that Trump's victory has made victory for them possible. National politics has become international - it doesn't surprise me that the flag- waggers seem happy with that one. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Jan 17 - 06:41 AM Never had you down as Winston Churchill fan, Steve. I remember one Paddy's day, i did a gig at this Irish pub in Grantham. The brewery had renamed it The churchill - just arrived one morning with a sign to hang outside. Great was the rejoicing, as you can imagine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 06:26 AM Well let's just take a look at Teribus's shrugging defence of the electoral college. One example of what happened with what should have happened: Florida has 29 votes. Trump's side won by a whisker in Florida. So he got all 29 votes and Clinton got none. What should have happened was that Trump got 15 and Clinton 14. You correctly state that the electoral college allocation to states fairly reflects their populations. Well in Florida's case a 15 to 14 split would have fairly reflected the wishes of the people of Florida. Thought you'd be up for that. "If I thought that the likes of Steve Shaw would ever have any say in teaching anything connected with politics to children, I'd have my children out of school in an instant and have them educated privately - oh hang on, wait a minute, that is exactly what myself and my wife (a teacher) did do and it turned out to be the best investment we ever made, worth every penny." God, I feel sorry for them. Unless, of course, you're going to tell me that they all turned out to be ruthless capitalists who make their livings by ripping people off. Didn't want them mixing with the hoi polloi, eh? A mix of you and a public school bringing up the kids? God help 'em. Hope they're resilient! "By the way Shaw, in this day and age, if people are totally ignorant it is generally entirely their own fault, you won't acknowledge that, but somewhere along the line taking personal responsibility comes into the equation." And where do you suppose people should begin their political education? What resources do they have, bearing in mind that not everyone has a professorial-level brain? Without education, people are vulnerable to the Daily Mail and The Sun and soundbite-bigots such as Farage. My grandad worked in Salford docks and lived in council houses all his life but voted Tory because the priest in the pulpit told him to. You don't really understand education, do you? Was that because of a deficit in your own? It is not about "telling people stuff." It's about showing people how to grab information for themselves and how to make sense of it and how to be critical. My dad taught me to drive and I passed my test first time. Then it was up to me to gain experience and turn myself into a safe, competent driver. Without those early lessons I couldn't have done that. People need a start and that applies to education for politics just as with everything else. The political establishment, especially on the right, has a vested interest in keeping people ignorant, denying them political education. Ignorant people are far easier to manipulate and persuade by means of superficial half-truths or downright lies. Your kneejerk reaction, suspecting anyone suggesting political education in schools of being a red under the bed, is facile and fully indicative of your own long-time submission to indoctrination. Never mind. We'll stick with silly "citizenship tests" instead that require you to know who followed Henry VIII and what city the Beatles came from, then take oaths of allegiance under a flag with your arm across your chest. God save the Queen! Gahd bless Merka! And what do you think of old Winston's comment about the ignorance of voters? "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Jan 17 - 06:17 AM No the deal was definitely he was going to be middle of the road - an electable face at the head of Labour. presumably he didn't fancy roughousing it with Corbyn's trots. The ones whose relentless abuse so annoys the delicate little socialist that Jeremy is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:51 AM "No doubt the visit will result in protests. " We know from past experience that our forces of "law and order" and the British State have a nasty record o protecting the far-right from such protests - from Mosley's Black-shirts, to official visitors from Fascist States. Can't remember suppression of petitions before - a really disturbing new kid on the British block "This from a guy who wouldn't even stand up to Jeremy Corbyn." Don't you mean, this is the guy who wouldn't stand beside Jeremy Corbin's support the Socialist principles for which his party was created and preferred the right wing career politics option, Al? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Georgiansilver Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:33 AM I truly believe that a visit of this nature should take place. Political meetings and state visits have always had their place. If it fails as a public relations arrangement or if it gives our Queen grief.etc, etc, then we all learn a lesson from it. I see banning him from coming as a grief causer to the US as a whole which is unnecessary and undiplomatic. , whatever any individuals in the US think of Trump. I personally am not enamoured with the man as I think he is and will be a 'loose cannon' but we should not change our international relationship because of one man. Should every country in the world start banning him from state visits? He is after all in 'the position of responsibility that all previous presidents have had the responsibility for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:17 AM What about the Saudi Arabian visits? Yes ake. Seeing as you brought it up... How come Trump has banned people from Syria entering the US on the grounds of terrorist activity and not banned people from Saudi Arabia? Was it not Saudi citizens that perpetrated9/11 attacks while there have been no known attacks on the US by Syrian refugees? How long are you going to carry on being an apologist for this lunatic? DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:15 AM No doubt the visit will result in protests. That is the right of people in this country whether you like it or not. It behoves you to uphold that right and express the hope that the behaviour of both police and ordinary people will keep the protests peaceful. That's what your last paragraph should have said. What you actually said would have been very chilling had it come from anyone in authority instead of a tabloidistic nutjob. And I'll point out that the vast majority of people who demonstrate about things in this country manage to do it peacefully and with good humour. Your little bit of spleen at the end of your post sounds horribly like the beginnings of a justification for the fascistic banning of demonstrations. And that is precisely what foments the violence you pretend to abhor. Then you can make your move and start to ban all sorts of other things in the name of "public order," then you can take it from there... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:15 AM Who is 'Mr. Saville'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:13 AM Yes and half a million members of the Labour Party, Steve. Still going to bloody lose though , aren't we? I loved that interview with Chuka Umuna. the one where he said Theresa May had to stand up to the president of the USA. This from a guy who wouldn't even stand up to Jeremy Corbyn. My God! the Oscars are going to be insufferable this year!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Jan 17 - 05:06 AM He's the elected President. How the fuck could it be anything except a state visit? that we turn every state visit from every arsehole into a bloody pantomime with everything from the household cavalry and Widow Twanky herself on display is our fault. Not Mr Trump's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:59 AM We're now over the million. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:51 AM "Now why would this be the logical next step over there in Miltown Malbay, Co. Clare Jim?" It seems your brand of fascism is becoming international - what with US presidents playing and the Brits dancing Dispute the petition if that's what turns you on - ignoring the extremism of banning petitions seems to be your thing Go polish your jackboots - you might be needing them when the call comes - though you'll probably be too busy serving greasy frie-ups for the stormtroopers Seems toy be your place in that particular pecking order Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:45 AM "Getting our front doors kicked in by jackboots seems the logical next step." Now why would this be the logical next step over there in Miltown Malbay, Co. Clare Jim? The other petition that has nearly 1 million signatures does not ban Donald Trump as Head of State visiting the UK, whereas the petition copied out in Jim Carroll's post wants Trump banned from visiting the UK because of the temporary 90 day ban he has decreed against seven specified states. The premise would appear to be banning people and denying them access is wrong, so it is perfectly right and acceptable that we should impose a permanent ban and deny him access - Utterly preposterous. As is the next bit of twaddle: "Allowing him to visit our country as though he were a normal leader will add to his authority and strengthen his power. He must not be treated as normal." Ehmmmm hate to point this out to Mr.Saville and to Jim Carroll, but Donald Trump IS the elected and inaugurated President of the United States of America now sworn into Office. This does make him in Mr. Saville's terms "a normal" leader. Being the Head of State of the most powerful nation on the planet, I do not think that he needs any foreign endorsements to "add to his authority and strengthen his power". With regard to the other petition if he has been invited to visit the UK as the United States of America's Head of State then it is only good manners and sensible diplomacy for him to be received by our Head of State and for the visit to be officially recognised as a "State Visit". No doubt the visit will result in protests where peaceful protesters turn up carrying various implements they would otherwise never leave the house with, wearing gasmasks and crash helmets, covered head to foot, they will claim extreme provocation due to a police presence and there will be violence, people (Most likely police and innocent bystanders) injured and damage to other people's property, as they protest "peacefully". Still never mind it will be good practice for them in the run up to Brexit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Senoufou Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:23 AM Over 977,000 now. It's obviously going to make a million quite soon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:14 AM Sorry, tried to link to a Mail Online article claiming that No. 10 have 'rejected' the petition to cancel Trump's State Visit, which was posted on FB, but I can't find it now. Maybe it was another example of 'Alternative Facts'? The Daily Mail specialises in those. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 30 Jan 17 - 04:02 AM news/article-4170964/No10-rejects-calls-cancel-Donald-Trump-s-state-visit.html?ito=social-facebook">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 17 - 03:44 AM "BBC News this morning has reported that the petition has been rejected by the Tory government" I knew nothing of this petition - I assume this is a different petition I received this morning (message dated yesterday) "Ian Saville 20 hrs · There is a petition asking that Trump not be invited for a state visit, which I have signed. However, I have also put up a petition saying he should not be invited for any sort of visit: I've made a petition – will you sign it? Click this link to sign the petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/…/spons…/yPupbe6AYDPTwro9b8Tq My petition: Donald Trump should be banned from visiting the United Kingdom. Given Donald Trump's executive order barring citizens from 7 Muslim countries from entering the United States, his views on climate change, his attitude to women, his encouragement of violence and the authoritarian tone of his statements, it is not in the interests of the UK to allow him to visit. It is clear that Donald Trump is an authoritarian President, whose views pose a grave danger to UK citizens and to the whole world. Allowing him to visit our country as though he were a normal leader will add to his authority and strengthen his power. He must not be treated as normal. He has already demonstrated that the rhetoric he spouted during his election campaign was not just bluster, and he is prepared to put extreme anti-humanitarian policies into practice. We must not give him credence. Click this link to sign the petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/…/spons…/yPupbe6AYDPTwro9b8Tq I attempted to sign it only to find that it has been blocked pending investigation What the **** is happening? This is totally unprecedented. This is appalling - an open case of an attempt to block protest on behalf of an extremist right wing foreign leader. "It would be wise Not to antagonise President Donal John in this manner." And we have our own home-grown little crop of right wing Mudcat quislings ready to sell out our democracy on behalf of this monster. One of Trump's first actions on being elected was to demand that Farage, the fascist residue of British politics, be appointed Ambassador This piece of work has his supporters here as well - 'bout time we dug out our "be careful of who you talk to - wall have ears" notices. Getting our front doors kicked in by jackboots seems the logical next step. And still our home-grown Trumpeters refuse to address either Trump's extremist nature and the effect it is beginning to have on all of us. 'Bout time they crawled out of their woodwork and justified themselves. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 30 Jan 17 - 02:54 AM FWIW, the petition isn't to stop Trump coming to the UK, it's to stop it being an official State Visit - not the same thing. BBC News this morning has reported that the petition has been rejected by the Tory government - obviously Maggie May enjoys having her pissy grabbed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Teribus Date: 30 Jan 17 - 02:24 AM The 2016 Presidential Election and the election campaign that preceded it was, according to the rules, "legal". The US system has got two major "flaws" if you can call them that: 1: The Electoral College system. Clinton may have got 3 million more votes in total but Trump won more Electoral College votes by winning more states 304 to Clinton's 227. Get rid of that system and you end up with whoever wins the high population states wins the election to the detriment of the views and desires of the rest of the country. Certain UK voters on this forum complain about this sort of thing in UK Politics (In England it is London and the South-East rule; in Scotland it is the Edinburgh-Glasgow central belt - Because that's where the votes are, so those are the "concerns" that matter) - so the Electoral College system ensures that the tail does not wag the dog. 2: If you have a system whereby ANYONE can stand for election to what is the most powerful position on earth, then the inevitable result given the worst of all circumstances is TRUMP - someone with enough money to throw at the election yet someone who has never held elected office in his life, or ever had any experience of working in a purely political environment wins the election. That is what you got, it is NOT his fault that he won (Personally I thought towards the campaign he was trying everything he could to lose by alienating as many significant groups of electors as he could - yet he still won). He does not need the endorsement of any other nation or government, he is the President of the United States of America, and like it or not, the world has to do business with him as they have had to do business with all his predecessors since the end of the Second World War. 3: In the 2016 Election Campaign out a whole host of candidates the two main parties succeeded in nominating the two candidates that were most loathed and mistrusted by the US electorate - I do not have a clue as to how that can happen, or how that can be allowed to happen. This flurry of "Executive Orders" might prove to be a good thing as each gets slapped down - it will prove to Trump that he cannot rule by decree. On another thread Akenaton linked to an article in "The Spectator", well worth a read - it was not as some thought anti-education - it was about the selective type of education put forward by the so-called "liberal elite". It was not some "racist" alt-right group that brought about the Brexit vote in the UK, or brought Trump to the White House in the USA it was the vote of what this so-called "liberal elite" call "the ordinary people". For a perfect example of what this so-called "liberal elite" think of the ordinary man in the street read Steve Shaw - 29 Jan 17 - 08:38 PM "As for democratic rights and civic responsibility, well the yanks have the same problem as we do - a totally ignorant, through no fault of their own, electorate. I well remember staffroom discussions about the need for political education in schools." If I thought that the likes of Steve Shaw would ever have any say in teaching anything connected with politics to children, I'd have my children out of school in an instant and have them educated privately - oh hang on, wait a minute, that is exactly what myself and my wife (a teacher) did do and it turned out to be the best investment we ever made, worth every penny. By the way Shaw, in this day and age, if people are totally ignorant it is generally entirely their own fault, you won't acknowledge that, but somewhere along the line taking personal responsibility comes into the equation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 30 Jan 17 - 02:13 AM I do not support government by petition any more than I support government by referendum: it is the responsibility of government to decide whether there is a state visit or not. On the other hand I regard it as a fundamental part of any democratic system that the citizens have ways to express their opinions, including marches and petitions. So I fully support this petition in terms of its starement and as paet of a general principle. Will it create chaos? No. The government will decide how to address it, but the petition is not calling for any restrictions on business dealing with Trump, or his administration. But let me be direct: i signed this petition because i am opposed to restricting travel for the innocent as well as the guilty. I am opposed to restricting rights to family planning. I am opposed to treating women as objects to be grabbed. I am opposed to torture. If the price of supporting that stance is making Putin feel happier, it is unfortunate but I am prepared to pay it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: ragdall Date: 30 Jan 17 - 01:30 AM Keep up the great work, petition signers. If the goal of Putin in assisting Trump's victory was to create Chaos and divisions in the USA and Western world, he's been successful beyond his wildest dreams. rags |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: ragdall Date: 30 Jan 17 - 01:25 AM Hugs to Bonzo. May your faithful buddy rest in peace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 17 - 08:38 PM We're not calling for him not to be let in, Al. We want to prevent any visit becoming a state visit, the kind of thing that will gift him unwarranted legitimacy. He lost by three million votes and is behaving ignorantly and thuggishly. The onus is on him to change his ways and earn that legitimacy, not have it handed to him on a plate by an obsequious Tory government. As for democratic rights and civic responsibility, well the yanks have the same problem as we do - a totally ignorant, through no fault of their own, electorate. I well remember staffroom discussions about the need for political education in schools. You'd have thought we were suggesting a recipe for the next revolution. It was Churchill who said (words to this effect) that if you want to know what's wrong with democracy, just spend five minutes in conversation with the average voter. That's why we've got Trump and that's why we're heading our disastrous way out of the EU. If you keep people ignorant you keep them pliable. The political elite all know that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: gillymor Date: 29 Jan 17 - 08:11 PM Paraphrasing Henny Youngman, "Take my President, please!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 29 Jan 17 - 07:58 PM I think it would be very rude to not let him in. I don't have the confidence in great acts of rudeness as a form of convincing a person they are wrong that so many people on this forum seem to have. The fact is that the number of people who bother voting and using their democratic right in the USA is a disgrace. All this shit about holding your hand over you heart when the national anthems played - its just not working when it comes to teaching civic responsibility. That's why they've been saddled with Trump. You have to wonder if half the people protesting now, voted when they had the chance. God knows the man did everything he could to prove he shouldn't be President. You can't blame him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 17 - 07:39 PM I wonder how many of his supporters have kids - if so, this is what they are beqeathing them DOOMSDAY CLOCK Also not worth commenting on, just like the rest of the FUCKED-UP planet. no doubt Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 17 - 07:27 PM "He was democratically elected." Sigh.... SO WAS ******* HITLER What this thug is doing has now been ruled unconstitutional Trump used basic racism to get elected - promised of keeping "aliens" out with walls, He is now unconstitutionally abusing the rights of American citizens and well as abusing one of the things America was based on - the promise to give refuge to those in need He is a fascist - and those continuing to support him are supporting his unconstitutional fascism It is to the great shame of Britain (but no great surprise) that our Prime Minister was the first state leader to spring across the Atlantic to 'kiss his ring' He isn't even serious about American Security One of the Muslim States significantly missing from Trump's racist hit list is SAUDI ARABIA I WONDER WHY!! Profit before security for this Billionair thug And his supporters here are still refusing to comment on the man and his policies Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Jack Campin Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:45 PM We have been here before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment_and_arrest_of_Augusto_Pinochet How long will it take Trump to match Pinochet's murder toll? Two weeks maybe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Senoufou Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:40 PM It's heartening to see so many Americans protesting about this ban in the streets of many cities there. And I see that Trump has changed his 'edict' with regard to visitors from the UK with dual nationality. He doesn't seem to know what he's about does he? He looks a bit silly now, having to go back on his initial ruling. I think a State Visit should be deferred for a few months until we see which way the wind blows. Things are already looking a bit wonky in my view. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:15 PM "It's relevant because I brought it up." So everything that's ever "brought up" here is relevant, eh? Or is that just a very large capital I? 😂😂😂 The petition is an appropriate response to the travel ban. Why should we allow this man to come here, travelling so freely that he can even meet the Queen, when he bans travel for thousands of perfectly decent human beings on account of their religion, accident of place of birth, or ethnicity? Are you beginning to get it yet? And we're not wanting to stoop to his level: we still want him to be free to come here but without all the ceremonials and trappings. Right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:10 PM I meant it is not relevant in the sense that they are independant issues. It is flawed logic to try to weaken an argument about one cause by pointing to other causes that were not supported, especially if that not-support is regarded as opposition to those causes. Also: mentioning something on the thread does not of itself make those things relevant to the thread. So if I mention tiger and lion sanctuaries (as i did before I decided the point was too abstruse) they would not then become relevant to petitions or trump. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:01 PM 813,813 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: robomatic Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:50 PM DMcG Wrote: I don't know. Certainly there have been petitions against other state visits. But it is a not relevant - if anyone wants to start a petition against any of the people you list they can. Someone happened to start one about Trump's visit and - at the moment - roughly a thousand more people are signing it every minute. If other people are not the subject of petitions it in no way makes this one suspect. It's relevant because I brought it up. Reminds me of the use of the word 'snowflake' to mean anti-anti-Trump, except when it's used to be anti-Trump. Is the UK still safe from Michael Savage? Now there's a 'flake'! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:41 PM I'm getting worse. I thought it said not to allow turnip...it was the missing capital letter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Senoufou Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:37 PM 791,265 signatures now! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Iains Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:59 PM But Ake, America's oil sits under Saudi sand. We would not want to antagonize them too much. - might lose the oil and the lucrative arms contracts. All very conveniently overlooked as the snowflakes make idiots of themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:53 PM He was elected in the US by Americans. The petition is about the opinions and attitude of the British people. Those are two distinct things, ake. But feel free to start a petition in favour of him meeting the queen, ake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:52 PM "President Donal John," is it now? That is neither witty nor funny. It marks you out as a pointless buffoon. The rest of your post once again reveals your utter misunderstanding of what has happened and what Trump is about. I asked you some questions yesterday. You dodged, as expected, hoping that you could divert away from responding properly by saying something completely idiotic. Well you can't. You simply don't know what's going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:49 PM You are not addressing my point about president Trump delivering what he promised. He was democratically elected. What about the Saudi Arabian visits? A few hundred commies protested that... a dictator who routinely decapitates homosexuals....Really discriminates against women etc. No, it is mainly "liberal" bile. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Iains Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:49 PM I believe the number is now high enough to demand a debate in the house of commons. It will be interesting to see how all these "superior beings" deal with the subject. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:39 PM Well personally I don't see the UK getting a good trade deal whether we have a petition or not. Without the EU the UK is desperate for a trade deal and as i said on another post that is about the weakest possible position from which to enter a negotation. And Trump is experienced enough to know it. And, no it is not a media led campaign, or at least not in the traditional media; it hasn't been going long enough to appear in the press or, as far as i know, on broadcasts. But people on facebook and and Twitter and similar have told their contacts and so on. Surely you realise Trump has said that twitter is a way of bypassing the corrupt media? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: akenaton Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:25 PM It would be wise Not to antagonise President Donal John in this manner. As we are well on our way out of the EU on a rock hard Brexit we shall be depending on a favourable trade deal with the US. These internet protests are idiocy promoted by a media still stinging from its double defeat. In 2007, the Queen received on a State Visit, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and members of the Royal family have been sent to various Middle Eastern dictatorships by our government without any recourse to Internet protests. The real reason for this campaign is bile by people who in the main have no interest or understanding of the political reality. President Trump is putting into practice what he promised before the election.... policies which were accepted at the ballot box by the electors of the United States of America On TV this morning a black guy was interviewed, he made it clear that in certain areas like New Orleans, unemployment amongst black people is running at 52% America has serious domestic problems and at least you now have a President who is prepared to take on the media and the establishment in an attempt to make the US safer and to tackle unemployment amongst the forgotten sectors of American society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:13 PM It is tailing off a bit now, but 750,000 looks near certain, with 1,000,000 possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 29 Jan 17 - 01:53 PM Here is a link to the site |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 29 Jan 17 - 01:47 PM Since I raised it, here's the current figures for UK parliamentary electors: ...between 2014 and 2015 are: England – 37,399,900, a fall of 1.1% Wales – 2,181,800, a fall of 2.0% Scotland – 3,896,900, a fall of 3.4% Northern Ireland – 1,243,400, a rise of 0.9% |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 29 Jan 17 - 01:46 PM where is the link? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 29 Jan 17 - 01:42 PM .. Which is not that far off 1% of the entire UK population. Including children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Bonzo3legs Date: 29 Jan 17 - 01:32 PM Petition now stands at over 500,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Jan 17 - 01:24 PM Somehow I doubt Trump is the kinda guy to care about any overseas petitions, though at the same time I suspect he will be unable to resist concocting some kind of petty spiteful retribution to inflict against our nation....??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 29 Jan 17 - 01:16 PM I don't know. Certainly there have been petitions against other state visits. But it is a not relevant - if anyone wants to start a petition against any of the people you list they can. Someone happened to start one about Trump's visit and - at the moment - roughly a thousand more people are signing it every minute. If other people are not the subject of petitions it in no way makes this one suspect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: robomatic Date: 29 Jan 17 - 01:00 PM Just curious: Are you petitioning or have successfully petitioned to have the following also verboten w/in UK: Putin Erdogan Mugabe el-Sisi Netanyahu Like I said, Just Curious ?????????????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: DMcG Date: 29 Jan 17 - 12:29 PM It is more subtle than thw title suggests. If granted - which I doubt - Trump could come to the UK and undertake every bit of state business that may arise. All he would be denies is the pomp and ceremony of meeting the queen which is the thing that would hurt his ego most. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Senoufou Date: 29 Jan 17 - 12:24 PM Bonzo, I'm so sorry you have had to lose your dog. He looks beautiful in your photo. I bet your heart is breaking. We had our cat Minty put to sleep two weeks ago and we're still in bits. I'm sure Bonzo had a very happy life with you. Eliza |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 29 Jan 17 - 11:43 AM When I signed it had reached 200,000+ Now 300,000 and rising. RtS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Jan 17 - 11:40 AM Sorry about your pooch, Bonzo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Bonzo3legs Date: 29 Jan 17 - 10:56 AM Incidentally, please spare a thought for the real 3 legged Bonzo who was put to sleep very peacefully on Thursday, after much suffering over recent weeks from worn out joints and latterly kidney and breathing problems. Bonzo RIP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Donuel Date: 29 Jan 17 - 10:20 AM Rumsfeld and Cheney are still subject to arrest in some places in Europe Is there a link for UK mates? I JUST REALIZED the UK has far more powerful anti hate speech laws than the USA This BS but... I bet in the UK a lot of frustration and bile builds up and that mudcat is almost an oasis to get hate out of their system. Their discussions have more detail and erudite arguments than many US arguments. Also a lot more name calling free for alls, that may be frowned upon in the UK. I don't know how social media works in the UK but its a thought. Keep Free Speech alive for all including Akenaton, beardedbruce and others who only go round and around in the same circle. thanks bonzo3legs |
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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Bonzo3legs Date: 29 Jan 17 - 09:25 AM Mo Farah 1 hr · "On 1st January this year, Her Majesty The Queen made me a Knight of the Realm. On 27th January, President Donald Trump seems to have made me an alien. I am a British citizen who has lived in America for the past six years - working hard, contributing to society, paying my taxes and bringing up our four children in the place they now call home. Now, me and many others like me are being told that we may not be welcome. It's deeply troubling that I will have to tell my children that Daddy might not be able to come home - to explain why the President has introduced a policy that comes from a place of ignorance and prejudice. I was welcomed into Britain from Somalia at eight years old and given the chance to succeed and realise my dreams. I have been proud to represent my country, win medals for the British people and receive the greatest honour of a knighthood. My story is an example of what can happen when you follow polices of compassion and understanding, not hate and isolation." |
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Subject: BS: Petition to not allow trump into the UK From: Bonzo3legs Date: 29 Jan 17 - 09:19 AM SIGNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
