BS: We're off, barring an earthquake

Subject: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 05:48 AM

Yesterday's vote was hardly a surprise and there's a lot of fighting still to do. I believe that coming out of the EU is going to be a total catastrophe. I also think that there's no-one to call our idiotic prime minister to account. Jeremy, you can't form a front bench worthy of the name and a fifth of your MPs have just defied you, including a number of Labour big-hitters. The party of which I'm a member is a basket case and, let's face it, you're toast. The party desperately needs someone who's not in your camp and who hasn't got too much Blair-Brown-Miliband loser baggage. Fatally-split parties are routinely demolished by the electorate. God knows where this country, and Labour, go from here.

I almost feel like a bloody LibDem, God help me.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 05:51 AM

Black humour moment: good job I proofread that. The first version came out as "fatally-split panties."

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stu
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:19 AM

Actually Steve, several of my mates have been talking of doing the same thing. As Labour is no longer an effective opposition we need someone to act in the interests of anyone who hasn't drifted to the right, and it seems the LibDems are the only choice.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:19 AM

I wonder what goes on in the background sometimes, Steve. I agree with your points and, as a fellow member, cannot help but be disappointed with the performance of late. I think Corbyn is well intentioned but, given the hostility of the press and some of the PLP, he is on a hiding to nothing! Maybe the intention was to get a new broom to sweep the Tory sleepers out of the party and then, when his leadership had become untenable, replace him with someone who would be both popular and able to return the party to their roots? I think you mentioned Keir Starmer recently and while I previously knew little about him he does look a fair bet.

As to fatally split panties, the less said the better.

:D tG

PS - Talking of fair bets, what are odds of this thread staying clear of right wing sneerers, Farage apologists and socialists in inverted commas... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:26 AM

Don't panic, most frustrated/tearful "liberals" are joining UKIP.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:37 AM

Wouldn't bet on that, Dave!

I did wonder whether Corbyn's three-line whip, doomed from the outset, was his deliberate attempt to manoeuvre himself into a position from which he could say, well I can't carry the party with me so let's look for a dignified stepdown without any infighting. I hope so but I doubt it. He's a tenacious bugger if nowt else.

Ben Bradshaw holds our last outpost in the Westcountry and he voted against. As did Stella Creasy, very sure-footed and a fighter, though not exactly anti-divisive.

Stu, the idiotic LibDems delivered us this bloody mess, and their near-annihilation in 2015 was the only joy I could glean from that election. And their current leader harbours the kind of obnoxious notions about gay marriage and abortion that would go down well in the Trump camp. So no thanks. And only seven out of nine voted against, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:41 AM

Ok, let's have UKIP membership statistics, akenaton, along with the former political affiliations of recently-joined members. If you can't provide these figures right now, I respectfully ask you to go and play on the railway.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:56 AM

Join the Lib-Dems.

I may well be accused of 'triumphalism' here but I think the reason the Labour Party is at a dead end is that, in the minds of most people, they achieved their main ojectives years ago. We have a Welfare State, State pensions, Medical Care free at the point of access, a minimum wage and all sorts of legislation to protect our rights. In an attempt to stay relevant the Labour party keeps trying to fight the old battles over and over again and fails to face up to the fact that the real new challenge is reducing the level of debt we leave to future generations.

Old Labour members will blame Maggie for the collapse of heavy industry. Others remember the political ambitions and practical intransigence of the Trade Unions. Still there as evidenced by the recent rail strikes. Also, and this has been said before, once we lost the captive markets of Empire we were over-producing industrially, with increasingly obsolete machinery and practices, and for thirty years everybody, Labour and Tories alike, refused to take responsible action. Maggie was forced to bite the bullet and you all hate her for it.

At least the Lin Dems are not tied to the Unions. The general public might look favourably on that.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:59 AM

I should have bet on it being unsullied for only 7 minutes. I could have made a fortune :-D

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 07:25 AM

Oh, don't you worry, Stanron. We hate her for a lot more reasons than that. She legitimised government by spiv in the late 80s which Blair and his cronies cheerfully perpetuated. Look where it got us. As for recent industrial action on the railways, there is nothing "political" going on. That is just the lame kneejerk of you Tories. It's about rank bad management, lousy industrial relations and cost-cutting putting passenger safety at risk The working people of this country have been lied to about unemployment by this government and millions are enduring under-employment, seasonal work, pay that doesn't cover their uncontrolled rents, companies who won't recognise trade unions for reasons we don't even need to think about, temporary contracts, zero-hours contracts, bogus apprenticeships, bogus "self-employment" to relieve firms of paying your stamp and no job security. And if you get made redundant don't expect your "redundancy pay" to keep you going while you search for another job. The working people of this country need a strong opposition voice and strong unions more than ever. And do try to get your information from somewhere other than the Daily Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:05 AM

Corbyn and the despicable gang of weasels he leads did absolutely NOTHING to stop Farage so I suppose it's not surprising he wants to be first in the queue to lick Trump's arse.

Nonetheless I didn't see such a craven display of utter acquiescence to fascism coming.

The Scottish Nationalists need to open a franchise in England.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:08 AM

Thanks Steve. Two laughs for the price of one. Your attempt at patronising was 100% inaccurate and the rest of your post proves my main point.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:12 AM

You're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:43 AM

Corbyn and the despicable gang of weasels he leads did absolutely NOTHING to stop Farage

I understand the sentiment, Jack, but think it is a bit unfair. The Farage rot had set in well before Corbyn and the current shadow cabinet were in position. By the time they were there any attempt at stemming the flow would have been futile. I would certainly blame Milliband as much as Cameron for pandering to the popularist right wing wave but I think Corbyn and co. are just trying to make the best of a bad job. Maybe they are not doing or cannot do enough given how far things have gone :-(

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:51 AM

The three line whip was a lose-lose situation. If he had not had a three line whip then the closet-Remainer angle defying the people's will would have been played continuously. Having a three line whip with rebels looks weak and incompetent. Having a three line whip with no rebels was always extremely unlikely but if it had been achieved we would be hearing about the main rebels losing their principles.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:36 PM

I must say, I think Diane Abbott is being treated abysmally by the media. Hanged, drawn and quartered without trial, including by the despicable Andrew Neill on This Week, which I've just watched. Cor, all these people who have suddenly become medical experts! She made it crystal clear last week on Question Time that she thought the only right thing to do was to vote to trigger Article 50 and that is what she would do, in spite of having voted to remain. I didn't agree, but hey, that is precisely what she said. So there was no "bottling."

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 03:06 AM

bin saying it since JC was put forward.

Michael Foot Mk2

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 03:31 AM

Sick people frequently turn up in the commons for critical votes. Diane Abbot is even taken to task by her own party for failing to vote because of a migraine..
The Guardian:-"Diane Abbott has been accused of cowardice and asked to apologise by a fellow Labour MP after missing the historic article 50 vote on Wednesday evening.

Despite claims from the shadow home secretary's office that she had fallen ill with a sudden migraine, John Mann claimed she "gave herself a sick note" rather than help to trigger Britain's exit from the EU."
    True or false her non vote will likely destroy her career and credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:17 AM

Yep, the self-same John Mann who arranged the cameras to be present before staging his theatrical attack on Ken Livingstone. A thoroughly dishonest man. You really want to believe him over Diane Abbott?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:31 AM

It is not a case of what I believe. It is a case of what her electorate, party, and the general public believe. Now matter how she attempts to spin her excuses, she will be judged for failing to turn up for a major vote. I would say her future is dammed.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:46 AM

I agree with Steve, Until we know for sure that Diane Abbott was/wasn't suffering from an acute medical problem, it's very wrong in my opinion to accuse her of 'bottling it' regarding her sudden retreat from the House. She could have been ill with any number of things, and it's nobody's business exactly what the illness was. She's been signed off for a number of days, and 'should return at the end of next week'. Dreadful to label her a coward and so on without the true facts being known.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:48 AM

Brittain's future is damned. Diane Abbot will not have much damn nation (sic) heaped in her. That will be reserved for JC!

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 05:27 AM

The point is that she didn't bottle anything. She had already made her view and her voting intention crystal clear the week before. Your post of 03.31am contains all the same insinuations that the right-wing media and her political adversaries have been coming out with. If you didn't believe those insinuations you wouldn't have posted them. In this country we still tend to adhere to innocent until proven guilty. As for her career, I doubt that she'll be shedding too many tears if things do indeed go against her.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 01:53 PM

A selection of headlines below.AS yet the migraine is attracting little sympathy ( or belief)

Wanted: good press for Diane Abbott
Spectator.co.uk (blog)-6 hours ago
As Diane Abbott continues to receive flak today for missing the Article 50 vote thanks to 'a migraine' (with #PrayForDiane doing the rounds ...
Diane Abbott facing calls to quit shadow cabinet over Brexit vote no ...
Mirror.co.uk-19 hours ago
'Did you bottle it?' Diane Abbott swerves questions after missing ...
Express.co.uk-12 hours ago
Diane Abbott fails to vote in Brexit Bill debate after going home with ...
Telegraph.co.uk-2 Feb 2017
MP Diane Abbott dodges questions after missed Brexit Bill vote
ITV News-2 Feb 2017
Drinks in the Red Lion pub... then Diane Abbott gets a 'migraine' and ...

For a politicians that all thrive on publicity, this ain't going well!

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 02:16 PM

Well now, there's a roster of fair-minded reports! The Spectator and Telegraph are right-wing Tory rags and the rest deal in tabloid sensationalism. And you don't really understand migraine, do you? The drinks in the bar were on THE DAY BEFORE, Iains. How many drinks did she have, Iains? Did she get pissed? Do you know something we don't know? You haven't a clue, have you? It's despicable to imply that having a drink the day before and having a migraine 24 hours later are in any way connected. Bit of a lynch mob mentality, innit, Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 02:19 PM

Well they're all slinging mud with great enthusiasm, but as I already said, no-one knows for sure what the poor lady is suffering from. I occasionally get crippling vertigo which comes on very suddenly. I stagger about, vomit and fall over. It's dreadful and apparently is related to migraine but without the pain, (a kind of vestibular neuritis). If this is similar to Ms Abbott's condition, she would have had to exit the Chamber instantly and get home somehow as fast as possible.
There are many embarrassing and/or painful illnesses which demand a swift withdrawal from public places. People should reserve judgement until the truth is known.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 02:31 PM

Sometimes we just have to take people at their word. Maybe she'll tell us in her own time what really happened, or maybe what really happened is what we've already been told. In the meantime we should see these despicable tabloid headlines for what they are. Diane Abbott (of whom I'm no fan, by the way) is one of those lefties who are easy meat for the tabloids. She was got at (and I thought she deserved it, frankly) for sending her child to a private school and she's been on the cusp ever since. But fair dos, eh? Iains is demeaning himself big-time by conniving in these innuendos and smears.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 03:10 PM

The vote that Diane Abbot missed was probably one of the most significant in recent history. Plenty of time has elapsed for her inner circle to have provided evidence to quieten the pack. That this has not occurred says a lot. Even you must admit that for the shadow home secretary to bottle out of a critical vote is strange behaviour.
By the way Shaw, connive implies being secretive. Nuffin secret about what I am saying. By the way you are correct many do despise her for sending her child to a private school, and were desperate to get at her as a result of this.(a bit of Labourite envy perhaps?)
Where she decides to have her children educated is a matter for her. It is her misfortune to have membership of an organisation that makes an issue of such private, personal decisions.

By the way in no way do I consider it demeaning to comment on her behaviour. It is just another nail in the coffin of a party desperate to self destruct. After the next general election I doubt Labour will have enough seats to play a game of monopoly. You will have to find another horse to back in order to seek your utopia. That will be far more satisfying for me than responding to your constant insults.
Can you try playing the B side once in a while, you a side tracks are getting repetitive?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:18 PM

From the Guardian, a staunch Labour party paper:-

"Poor old Diane Abbott. There she was, desperate to cast her vote on article 50 at 7pm, only to go down with a migraine just a couple of hours beforehand. The Labour MP John Mann has rather cruelly accused her of throwing a sickie to save herself from the dilemma of choosing between her constituency, 80% of which voted for remain, and Jeremy Corbyn's three-line whip. As someone who has been known to take the odd sickie myself – though obviously never while I've been working for the Guardian – I feel obliged to give Diane a few tips on the right way of doing it. Don't get photographed having a few drinks in the pub the night before. Don't make an impassioned speech in Westminster Hall less than an hour before you want to bunk off. Don't tweet less than an hour after you are officially throwing up with a migraine. The key to a good sickie is plausibility. Some well-placed, attention-seeking coughs, several hours before you plan to go home. Talk loudly on the phone about how ill you are feeling and that you aren't sure you're going to make it through the day. Then wait for a colleague to suggest you go home."

Oh Dear!

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:34 PM

Question from a foreigner, if you'd be so kind: Did Jeremy Corbyn want the British Labour Party to vote 'Leave'?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 06:13 PM

Well do let me help you, Iains. First, the Guardian is very far from being a staunch Labour paper. No way. I've been taking the Guardian for over forty years and, my God, how it has so often frustrated me. Second, the item you pasted a lump from, but failed to attribute, was penned by John Crace. His role in the Grauniad is always to take a light-hearted and sarcastic view of politics (and his "digested read" is a sine qua non, by the way). He's my favourite and I never miss his articles. But he is in no way a heavyweight political commentator, Iains. John is all about fun and light-hearted piss-takes. The trouble with you is the same as the trouble with those guys who quote from the Bible. They quote stuff, often without attribution (as in your case), without understanding either the sentiment or the context of what they're quoting. I can tell you for nothing that Diane would have loved his piece (and almost certainly will have read it).

So you don't think it's demeaning to comment on her "behaviour." Well, she told us she had a migraine atttack. Well I have two friends who are prone to migraines and I experience migraine auras myself on occasion. It is not very nice. Life grinds to a halt and there is nothing you can do about it. You are prejudging her. She's a bit of a leftie so she must have been coming the old soldier with her migraine. Well let me tell you something, Iains. You don't know that. I don't know that. Nothing in her behaviour over the 24 hours before her migraine militates against what she's told us. And for you to imply that is pathetic - and totally in character, sadly, as you've demonstrated a few times here recently.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 06:23 PM

Thompson, we suspect that Jeremy is extremely lukewarm about the EU. His demeanour during the campaign didn't exactly make anyone suspect otherwise. It has been an issue, to be honest. "Dragging his feet" would just about sum it up.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 06:44 PM

Just to add to my last post, it means nothing whatsoever that Ms Abbott was seen drinking in the pub the evening before, or even if she was Morris dancing an hour before. I can be happily trundling round Tesco's when wham! my poor husband has to half carry me to the car and get me home immediately. It's astonishing how suddenly these things can strike. One can't just 'bravely carry on'. It can't be done. One can't even sit up without being sick. Flat on one's back staring at the ceiling is the only way to get through it. If it was anything like this, I feel very sorry for her. We can't know what happened, but no-one should be called a liar and a coward in this way.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 07:01 PM

You're a star, Senoufou. As I said, I get migraine auras, but without the headache. I never know when it's going to happen but I can't do a damn thing once it starts and it lasts for about 45 minutes and I'm knackered afterwards. I can be hunkydory one minute, then it hits, and then I'm stuffed. I can't imagine what people who also follow through with the headache go through. Damn sight worse than me, that's for sure. Thing is, a bit like deafness, you can't see it from the outside. So, if you're of a certain mindset, you prejudge. Nice.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 02:41 AM

During the run up to the Brexit Referendum the official stance of every single political party in the UK with the obvious exception of UKIP was to vote to remain in the EU. Eurosceptic members of every single political party with the exception of UKIP formed the official opposition to the UK's membership under the banner "Vote Leave".

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:24 AM

Shed no tears for miss Abbott. A posturing "liberal", seeking celebrity status at the close of her political career.
I have no idea what Mr Corbyn was thinking of when he appointed her.

Abbott would be much more comfortable amongst the careerists and wet eyed "liberals" who compose the rump of the Parliamentary Party.

As I said already Mr Corbyn's mandate is from the rank and fie membership who know that electoral power is beyond them at present.
Mr Corbyns job is to educate and propose alternatives to global Capitalism, he has a strong political base of committed socialists, but against the whole of the media and with a Party of backstabbers he has no chance of power.....nor should he want it at this juncture.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:13 AM

One question related to the thread title - Just where are we "off" to?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:17 AM

Presumably a reference to the commenter cliche at the start of a horse race "And - they're off!". Whether it is the winning post we are off to or hell in a hand cart we may know soon, or it may be several decades before it is clear.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:38 AM

As we survived and thrived for centuries before without the EU I dare say we can do so again, particularly since the balance of trade between us and the EU and us and the rest of the world has been shifting steadily over the past five years from the former to the latter.

The vote has been taken and we will trigger Article 50 and once that notification has been delivered the process is irreversible - No race at all.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:43 AM

"As we survived and thrived for centuries before without the EU"
We had an Empire, Industries and a system capable of suppressing discontent.
We may have the latter, but the others all long gone.
Brexit has been a shambles and has opened the door to the worst aspects of humanity - Trump being the worst example so far, with scum like Lepen waiting in the wings..
Now we are in the process of deciding who we are to be dependent of in the future
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:48 AM

What's that thing they have to put on investment advert and similar these days? Ah yes, "Past Performance Is No Guarantee of Future Results". Or if you prefer a more ancient version, you can't step in rhe same river twice. That we managed in the past in a world whose financial and business structures were entirely different may be encouraging and give hope but that's as far as I can take it.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stu
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:01 AM

"As we survived and thrived for centuries before without the EU I dare say we can do so again...

This is why old white men have ruined the world for everyone else. Hankering after an age that never existed, will never exist and their myopic, blinkered, parochial world view means they can't understand why the way forward for us as a species is not in the petty isolationism of nation states but in combining the strengths

Your generation has failed us, but you don't have the wit to see it or the humility to contemplate your own fallibility or admit your failure. You should get out of the way before you, Trump, Farage,Le Pen and the rest of your backward, authoritarian leadership fuck it up even more for generations to come.


Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly aging
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand
Cause the times they are a-changing

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:04 AM

We've allowed Farage, Gove and Johnson to persuade us to cut ourselves adrift from Europe, and Trump is treating people like Merkel as though they're about on the same footing as Putin. Yet here's Theresa May, holding his hand and betraying an unseemly rush to get him here and to make "special deals." Well it isn't going to happen. He's a ruthless, exploitative businessman and he'll take very little notice of us when he finds how little we have to offer him, and he is seriously, possibly fatally, undermining the EU, which, believe it or not, we are still going to need big-time. We're stuffed, and the Blimps and little Englanders have a nasty shock coming. So far, were half way down the tower block we jumped off and my, isn't the blue sky and wind in our hair wonderful!

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:22 AM

Stu wrote: the petty isolationism of nation states

This could be quite a good description of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:29 AM

And how, pray, is a close-knit organisation of 28 states with free movement, a common currency for most and tariff-free trading indicative of 'isolationism," Stanron?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:38 AM

The European Single market is a market for it's members only. It isolates itself from the whole of the rest of the world. If the EU single market was larger than the rest of the world's economies lumped together it would have some merit. As part of the EU the UK is not allowed to trade individually with the rest of the world. The UK is not allowed to trade individually with the largest part of the world's economy. As part of the EU the UK is isolated from the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:44 AM

I have no antipathy to the people who voted to leave, or at least I dont mean to have, but it is very hard to know ourselves that well. I think we came to the wrong decision, yes, and there was a very deceitful campaign from both sides which will have deceived some people on both sides, yes. I hope I don't go futher than that, in my opinion, those who voted to leave were mistaken. But who was right and who was wrong is of little importance in finding our way forward from where we are now, which is why I think on balance Labour's decision to impose a three line whip was the best choice from a very poor set of alternatives. But be clear: working to make the best of where we are does not mean stopping criticising the people who got us here. We have to make the best deal we can with the USA. I fear even the best deal will be appalling because our hand is so weak - and Trump's "Art of the Deal" has a bit specifically about how to take advantage of those who are desperate to negotiate. But we have no alternative to doing the best we can overall. And I mean overall: a trade deal that loses control of working rights, or the NHS or individual freedoms we have worked for many decades is not the best deal overall in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:52 AM

I see Diane Abbott is now advertising for a communications officer.
"The lucky applicant must 'be at ease in a high pressure environment and have a proven track record in press work and be able to work flexible hours'"
They forgot to add that in order for the job to have any future heshe will have to apply more spin than a gyroscope.

The UK opposition party has as much teeth as my pet rooster!




http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/wanted-good-press-diane-abbott/

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 08:10 AM

Very true we no longer have an Empire, but there again Jom today we no longer need one. One of the things that Empire did do was it brought industrial capability with it to the reaches of that Empire. Globalisation is a fact of life and we have the best known, best trusted and largest financial hub in the world.

Precisely what the UK vote to leave the EU has to do with Trump winning the US Presidential election I have yet to fathom? - "Brexit has been a shambles and has opened the door to the worst aspects of humanity - Trump being the worst example so far" - Idiotic contention even for you Jom.

DMcG - the UK has not existed in a vacuum over the past 43 years - it may come as a surprise to you but we have been living, trading and doing business with an ever changing world throughout - to suggest anything other than that is ridiculous, you know that and I know that. Among the top seven economies in the world that of the UK is out performing them all.

"Only ill brought up louts and schoolyard bullies refer to people agressively by their surnames" - says Jim Carroll addressing Steve Shaw who in the post immediately before that wrote this:

"We've allowed Farage, Gove and Johnson to persuade us to cut ourselves adrift from Europe, and Trump is treating people like Merkel as though they're about on the same footing as Putin."

What was that you were saying about surnames again Jom?

According to Jom Shaw you are an ill brought up lout and a schoolyard bully"

I am sure following posts from both will come out with some form of snivelling and feeble reasons that excuses and exempts themselves from such censure. I use Carroll and Shaw as a mark of my total contempt for them both based purely on their behaviour on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 08:23 AM

The Empire made remade the nations in our image, destroyed native cultures and languages in the process and left a chaotic bloodbath in its wake
Both Brexit and Trump are the result of maipulated populism, as will be any rise of fascist states in the future
It's not rocket science
"What was that you were saying about surnames again Jom?"
I'm rerefering to members of this forum who are discussing with each other - I obviously lack a respect of these scum which you obviously have
Your infantile use of "Jom" http://mudcat.org/blickifier.cfmis a contant remainder of the insecurity you pointed out in others
Nice to see my points are still striking home
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 08:26 AM

As you say, Teribus, we both know and understand the UK has not been in a business vacuum for the last 43 years. But we also both know that one of the things stopping it being a vaccuum was the relationship with the EU. Losing that has an effect. I was quite conciliatory in saying we might not know exactly what for decades. But I stand by what I said: being successful before the existance of the EU is no reason to assume we will be without it. Maybe we will, maybe we won't: time will tell but simply asserting all will be ok is not enough.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stu
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 08:51 AM

"As part of the EU the UK is isolated from the rest of the world."

Oh give over. Do you understand anything about modern capitalism? The EU allows us to trade feely with other member countries (it's our biggest market, remember?) and by acting together as one gives us immense leverage when negotiating trade deals. As for being isolated, the EU provides 50% of ALL gobble development aid, helping poorer nations develop and progress.

Brexit has pissed all that away, and now we have to crawl up Trump's shitter to ingratiate ourselves with his capricious, amoral and unethical regime. This isn't an equal relationship and never will be. How undignified and pathetic does May look as she shills for Trump at the EU, making the UK look like what it now is; doomed to increasing irrelevancy on the world stage except as a poodle and apologist for the US. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 09:11 AM

Stu wrote: the EU provides 50% of ALL gobble development aid

I know it's a typo, we all make them, but I can't help but smile.

Remind me how long it took the EU to do a trade deal with the US before the Ochre Joker kicked it out?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stu
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 09:21 AM

It is a pretty funny typo!


"Remind me how long it took the EU to do a trade deal with the US before the Ochre Joker kicked it out?"

It was dead in the water before Trump was elected, and rightly so in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 09:26 AM

Appallingly, shared hatreds are more contagious and uniting than shared loves.

The stress of misplaced and displaced persons is only just beginning.
Climate change and all that goes with it will adversely effect the 7 Billion people on this Planet. I experienced a world of 2 billion people expanding to 3 Billion. We will not see that population again but the inevitable famine will bring the numbers down.

The enlightened people know what needs to be done but for now it looks like the immortal corporations will own this century.

The shared right wing based hatreds are not the problem. They are the symptoms.

Its the heat not the humidity, humility or the futility.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:01 AM

That was just a macroscopic viewpoint while all of your well informed microscopic observations have their respected place as well.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:31 AM

Extreme stupidity at 08.10am apropos of surnames, Woodcock. 😂

I said only a very short while ago that I am no fan of Diane Abbott and that she deserved the flak she got for sending her child to a fee-paying school. Perhaps, Iains, you would apprise us all as to how that equates to a "mutual appreciation society." You do seem to have a thing about poor Diane, don't you? I reckon you fancy her on the quiet.

Stanron, the single market is TARIFF-FREE for its members. The individual nations still do trading deals with other countries. Got my brand-new Mountain Warehouse gilet this morning. Made in China it was. Last time I checked, we were in the single market but China wasn't. I'm not expecting to be arrested for smuggling.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:51 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Made in China it was. Last time I checked, we were in the single market but China wasn't.

So when we leave we will be able to trade with the EU too. What exactly is the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:56 AM

Tariffs, that's the problem. Duh.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 11:34 AM

Steve, the fact that Diane Abbott chooses to send her child to a private school is a question only of relevance to her and her child. That it will enable her child to have a far better education than from the public sector, or that it stinks of hypocrisy is really none of your business. Perhaps if your and your colleagues in the public sector had achieved better results the private sector would not be constantly growing, and the question of where she chose to educate her child would not arise.
    You are very protective of your own party but subject the President of the United States to all sorts of abuse. Are you schizophrenic? or do you insist your role models are sacrosanct while heaping abuse on those you dislike.
    You cannot seriously expect to have it both ways and maintain some semblance of credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 11:39 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Tariffs, that's the problem. Duh.

Tarriffs work both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 12:33 PM

I totally disapprove of fee-paying schools (which is my business), consider that they should be abolished and assert that no self-respecting socialist would send their children to one. End of.

Your comment about "my party" and the US president is puerile. If you wish to defend Trump here, fire away. Don't forget to defend his Islamophobia, the fact that he is being applauded by fascists such as the KKK, his dismissal of the rule of law, his predatory attitude to women and his concept of building walls being better than building good relations. Once you start your valiant defence of him we may just remind you of a few more of his personal qualities. And, in case you haven't noticed, I've suggested here that Corbyn should now be considering his position.

I have no diagnosed mental illnesses and it behoves you to avoid suggesting that people with whom you disagree may be suffering from one. That is trolling for a start and, coming from you with your extremely shaky and ill-considered opinions and inability to stick to the argument, very unwise.

As for semblances of credibility, you shoot yourself in the foot almost every time you post. If I were you I'd spend a lot more time considering carefully what you post before you send it, and you should stop trying to patronise people here. You look very foolish when you do that.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 12:42 PM

Well, Stanron, we buy £89 billion more in goods from the EU per annum than we sell to the EU. The EU is far and away our largest trading partner, if that's the right word. If we don't get a reasonable deal, which we probably won't, tariffs will hit us hard. The thing is that we are in unknown, dangerous waters. I don't remember that being talked up much in the campaign. Conveniently, the leave campaign thought it was too hard for us to take in. But just wait until the job losses kick in.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 12:48 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Countries don't put tariffs on goods they export, they put tariffs on goods they import. The UK imports more from the EU than the EU imports from the UK. Therefore we, by that I mean our government, will get more out of the exchanges than their EU equivalents. Their goods will become more expensive over here and our exports will become more expensive over there. A short term gain for both governments and only a short term loss for those who can't be bothered to to find non taxed alternatives. Any loss of business as a result of this will be proportionate to the overall size of trade. As a result the EU losses will be greater than the UK losses. You appear to be assuming that the EU will be stupid about this and maximise rather than minimise these losses. If this is so we certainly are better off out.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 01:04 PM

Yebbut it's about those financial services too, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:08 PM

OK, Stanron, you've got me worried as I'm no economist. But if we leave the EU without a decent trade deal, we are well and truly stuffed. Read this article from the Independent (I'm useless at links so you'll have to google it):

Brexit: True cost of UK leaving EU without trade deal revealed

EXCLUSIVE: An analysis by The Independent of official data suggests British exporters would face a cost of at least £4.5bn - and in all likelihood they would take a hit many times larger...

Etc. And why would the EU give us a deal that would have lots of the other members rushing for the door after a similar deal? Ain't gonna happen.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:16 PM

Steve I must be missing something. You quote:-"
Your comment about "my party" and the US president is puerile. If you wish to defend Trump here, fire away"
I do not defend Trump, although his election was certainly the lesser of two evils. I merely point out to you(again) that you feel it quite reasonable to heap opprobrium on President Trump while defending a member of the labour party who missed a vital vote and has still not given a satisfactory explanation to her own party. You make it very clear from your patronizing comments you cannot tolerate any dissent from your single track mindset. Having a "confirmed socialist" posting here constantly is bad enough, the thought of any of you gaining power is frightening. Still we have the consolation Labour has lost all credibility and militant tendency or whatever you socialists like to call yourselves these days, likewise will become history.
Good riddance I say!

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:00 PM

Hello? Did I hear a squeaky noise?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:21 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: But if we leave the EU without a decent trade deal, we are well and truly stuffed.

It's an 'IF' article of course, and if I've got the right one it's nearly five months old. The opinions it expressed don't seem to be part of the current concensus but, as you say, they come up with the cost being £4.5 billion a year.

I did a bit of a search to try and find our current contribution and the best I could come up with was that in 2015 our net contribution was (would be?) over £8.5 billion. I imagine the figure for 2019 would be larger. Let's say that in 2020 it would have been £9 billion. Then a £4.5 billion cost of not paying £9 billion is a saving. Incidentally I also came across an article from 2014 talking about how our contribution was going up by £2.7 billion a year. I can't remember if that actually happened or not but once we leave it won't happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:01 PM

I need to do some study here, I'll be the first to admit. However, while the report is a few months old, I can't see that that much has changed. Everything's an "if" at the moment but things don't look too bright to me for an amazingly good final deal. It's not just a balance of payments argument. It's also about a poor deal shattering confidence among our manufacturing industries and the job losses that could ensue.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 05:47 AM

See your old pal Tony Blair is still banging the drum for EU Membership, and it would appear that Shaw and the "usual suspects" are still 100% behind him.

Pity the press are giving the charlatan the oxygen he requires to remain in the spotlight, he wrought enough harm to the UK when he was elected to an office of immense influence - today he is yesterday's man whose opinions carry no more weight than anyone else's.

What was the job he lusted after when he slipped out of the seat as Prime Minister in favour of Gordon of Cartoon? Oh yes he wanted to be President of the EU. Tell us Shaw what was his bank balance in 1994 compared to what it is now? His property portfolio alone is worth more than £30 million - didn't have anything like that in 1994.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:02 AM

Well tell me about Trump's portfolio too. That's a silly game, frankly. And what's with "still?" I've never been behind Blair and I never voted New Labour! And why are you so uncomfortable with an ex-PM having a public voice? Because you don't agree with him, by any chance? Would you say he has as much right to speak out as, say, the editor of the Daily Mail, who no-one ever voted for? What about the Archbishop of Canterbury, or the string of ex-ones?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:39 AM

Is there any reason why you and the rest of the "usual suspects" can never answer a direct question Shaw?

Tony Blair was nowhere near being a multi-millionaire in 1994 - he sure as hell is now in that time he was:

1. Leader of the Opposition
2. Prime Minister
3. Middle-East Peace envoy

Where and how did he accumulate his wealth and why are we the UK tax-payer still paying for his protection?

Compared to Blair, financially Trump is an open book.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:45 AM

I really don't give a flying fart. We are stuck with rich elites, especially in the US, whether we like it or not. So, as they appear in general to be the people who usually run things, we have to take note. Just hold your nose and stop being scared of Blair. Believe me, he's a bloody pussycat next to Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 08:09 AM

Who's the "WE" Shaw, I fortunately am not bothered by any such "rich elite", how does this "bothering" manifest itself? I can see how the wages bill at Anfield might upset some in far more deserving yet lower paid occupations, but as you are a "fan" your club's super-stars get a free pass.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 10:53 AM

"Compared to Blair, financially Trump is an open book."
Ask the students he tried to rip off how "open" hs book is.
Not sure of the significance of comparing Blair
Blair is a right-wing politician and possible war criminal - one of the predators of the British Parliamentary system
Perhaps you mean he is a British crook rather than an American one??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 12:41 PM

Certainly no free pass from me. I consider the wages of the top premier league players to be obscene. But, Teribus, let me apprise you of why they get paid so much. Do stop me if at any time you feel embarrassed, by the way. It's the market, Teribus. It's pure and simple capitalism. Competition among top clubs for top players. Supply and demand. TV companies, prepared to pay billions for the rights to show matches, bid more and more each year. They recoup those billions from advertising (that's why the poor old Beeb gets to show highlights only). Advertising for the goods that you and I have to buy. It's how big corporations make money. Ultimately, you pay. It's all about the profit motive. And the shareholders, who do even less work for their money than those footballers! Don't let's forget the shareholders! Gosh, you haven't stopped me yet! Surprise, surprise! The very system that you espouse, that you champion, that you're scared that "the left" want to dismantle, is the system than ensures that those footballers get all that money that you're complaining about! Well, Teribus, let me tell you that I'm right with you! LETS DUMP CAPITALISM TOGETHER! 🗑💰🗑

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 01:55 PM

Comprehension Shaw, comprehension. What part of me not being "bothered" by a rich elite do you not understand - they clearly "bother" you though.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 01:59 PM

Well, Twitler and his Cabinet are all the rich elite- and most thinking persons find them "bothersome" at the very least.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 02:05 PM

You accused me of giving footballers a free pass. Which I don't. I was wondering why footballers earning big money upset you more than spivs in the City, non-doms, tax evaders, oligarchs who buy up expensive properties in London, hedge-fund managers and bankers, none of whom yiu ever give a negative mention to. Oh, I forgot: all those people are more directly emblematic of the capitalist system you adore. Poor old footie players only entertain the hoi-polloi, don't they, so they're a bit easier to have a bash at, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 04:37 PM

Good heavens Shaw, you and your clichéd socialist "stereotypes" are showing. Let's have a good look at your list shall we?


1: The so called spivs in the City. The ones that are part of the fact that they work and operate the largest financial hub in the world. the one that accounts for a massive proportion of this nations GDP and a massive contributor to the nations coffers. Without them our country would be immensely poorer.

2: Non-doms, tend to be foreign, rich and influential, they bring money into the country and are useful in establishing contacts related to UK business interests abroad.

3: Tax evaders? If you know any Shaw it is your duty as a citizen to report them to the authorities. Or did you mean Tax Avoiders? What they do is perfectly legal - You find professional footballers in both groups.

4: Oligarchs who buy up expensive properties in London, well somebody has to do it and I would prefer that they spend their money here than elsewhere. By the way professional footballers also buy expensive properties in London.

5: Hedge-fund managers, do you draw a pension from your former employer Shaw? I ask because of the many in the UK who do you will find that those Hedge-Fund Managers had a great deal to do with ensuring that you get paid it, so don't knock 'em mate they do a very important job for the elderly of our country. What interest does a bank pay you on your savings Shaw? the hedge-fund manager and his pals got me 16.69% on my "savings" last year - that is the sort of performance when applied to far larger investors like Insurance Companies and pension funds ensures that pensions continue to get paid - I would have thought you'd know that all Trades Union Pension funds use them.

6: Bankers, the world could not function without them.

The world operates under a capitalist system and has done for a number of centuries now. Those who attempted other systems have gone to the wall - ask the U.S.S.R. Perhaps you should try reality instead of complete and utter bollocks Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 05:28 PM

Yes, I'm afraid MrT is perfectly correct, and I say that as a lifelong socialist......There is absolutely no chance of a socialist administration taking power any time soon, nor in the present circumstances would it be beneficial.

If we do not want the country to lapse into "failed State" mode a capitalist government which is prepared to govern in an efficient manner is the only answer, that means getting our people back into work and exiting the EU. The "liberal" dream is exactly what it says on the tin.....a myth.
Promulgated by people who basically hate their country and treat huge sections of the population with derision.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:24 PM

"Reality," Teribus? So where do you think those top footie players get their dosh from? Why, capitalism! You're very quick to defend the spivs, bankers, hedge funds, etc.,that rip us all off. but then you attack the footballers who work in a system just the same as that lot who rip us all off, forgetting that they provide entertainment for tens of millions every week. You don't like it? Tough shit. I don't like the yuppie-descendants either but I can't get away from their baleful influence. You pay for the advertising that pays the footballers' wages, so sit at home and fume. Tough shit again. But YOUR guys just about wrecked the world economy, whereas with my team you can just turn the telly off. You have nothing to complain about, have you?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 02:11 AM

As stated previously Shaw. I am not bothered by the group you refer to as "The Rich Elite" - You however, obviously are. I have no problem at all with professional footballers or "manufactured" pop stars. If people are mug enough to pay for the entertainment they provide then more fool them.

By the way me pointing out the reality that your list included many who make a massive contribution to the economic wellbeing of our country does not make those groups of people "MINE" it makes them "OURS" and their contribution is far greater and far more important than that of YOUR entertainers.

These people who you said ripped us off were themselves ripped off massively on the strength of a lie deliberately implied and fostered by Bill Clinton's Democratic Administration back in 1998 when they thought it would be good for the Democrats in the 2000 election for people to be fed a line of credit that they should never have been considered for under normal circumstances. At the time the implied lie told those lending the money was that all such loans would be guaranteed by the US Federal Reserve (Of course the US Federal Reserve was never consulted - probably because they would have said no - and as the source of this implied lie was the US Government it was never questioned).

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 03:52 AM

Senoufou, you may be interested in this article by Atul Gawande about headaches and how a good medical service works, and with interesting stuff about vertigo.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:13 AM

As I've explained, Teribus, it's all capitalism, and, ultimately, you pay for the footballers' wages via the more expensive stuff you buy which is more expensive because of the advertisers who pay out the billions to telly companies who then pay the football clubs. And hey, you raised the Anfield lads first! You should watch more football on the telly, mate. It's not like the good old days when the team coach stopped at the chippy for lunch on the way to the match, games were played on mudbath pitches in front of shivering hordes of fans who were nearly all standing up, and the players were brain-damaged by a ball that got heavier and heavier as it absorbed water as the match went on. By the end of the match it was like heading a bag of nutty slack. Today there is amazing speed and skill, the grounds are great and the lads look after themselves. No ten pints and a twenty-pack at the pub after training for them! And just think, if you begin to enjoy it you'll at least be getting something back for that investment in footballers pay that capitalism forced you to make!

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:17 AM

Yes, a missed bloody apostrophe. Dont think I didnt notice it's omission.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 10:57 AM

Never, ever been remotely interested in football Shaw but I suppose you are referring back to the days when we could actually perform well and win international competitions, as opposed to now.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 05:30 PM

Well I love it and I'm getting something back from my involuntary contributions to top players' wages, unlike you. Shame about Burnley today though. The team of my youth and my dad's side. Boo hoo.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:05 PM

I'm really fed up with this stuff about it being "defying the people's will" to call for a chance to stop Brexit. Our whole semidemocracy is founded on the principle that after every election the opposition sets out to change "the people's will", as expressed in that election, and at the next election to succeed in getting people to reject the result of that election.

Democracy is all about challenging "the people's will". The logic of this "defying the people's will" is that once there's been an election we should all line up with the winners, and never have another election. That's the way dictators typically operate.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:52 PM

I agree with every word of that. And, whilst I strongly dislike Blair, and aside from the fact that his intervention is severely ill-timed with regard to upcoming by-elections, I can find nothing to disagree with in his remarks. In 1975 we voted, overwhelmingly, to stay in Europe. For most of the time since then there have been calls from eurosceptics for a second referendum. So, in June last year, we got our second referendum. Ah yes, you may say, but the EU is very different now to what is was then (though let's not indulge in too much hyperbole there), so a new vote was legitimate. The self-same people who called for that second referendum now condemn anyone calling for a third referendum as undemocratic. Well I'll make the same argument as they made when they wanted last June's referendum: on a particular day we made a rather simple decision to leave the EU. Well, since then a lot of things have changed, such as the near-collapse of Sterling, the threat of inflation coupled to suppressed wages, the rise of fascism in Europe and a dangerous and unpredictable idiot installed in the White House. That isn't all: once negotiations begin, we will hear of many more adverse decisions made against us. By the time we get to leaving day, maybe in 2018, the world is going to be a very different place to what it is today. So calls for a third (not a second) referendum are no less democratic than Farage, Teribus and co. demanding that that we shouldn't have one. I really have to wonder what it is they're scared of.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 09:33 PM

Admitted to the EEC 1973 sold to the British public as us joining a simple trading block (Basically lied to by our own government)
Referendum on whether to stay in 1975 what was supposed to be a trading block (Again lied to by our own Government)

Now I make that an interval of two years

Maastricht Treaty altered the EEC that we voted to join - British electorate not consulted
Lisbon Treaty introduced by the back door that markedly altered the EU we did not vote or seek to join - British electorate incensed at not being given the opportunity to have a say in this change ( Referendum promised by Brown but the Government reneged on it)
Referendum to leave 2016

I make that an interval of 41 years since last decision was put to the electorate of the UK.

Now apparently the "Remoaners" want a second referendum supported by Tony Blair (Failed EU Presidential Candidate) within 8 months - You have got to be joking.

The EU is currently in turmoil, people from all sides have been screaming that the EU requires radical reform and up until six months before the UK Referendum the EU has steadfastly refused to contemplate even the most modest reform programme - Now that the UK has voted to leave the EU is about to topple over an abyss?? It would appear that we have far greater influence leaving than ever we did being part of it - Even then what word of reform from the EU Commission?? - NOTHING - Under such circumstances I'd say it deserves to fail.

By the way what is "Tone" hoping to get out of this "intervention" of his? Another shot at becoming the next President of the EU - One thing is for certain he sure as hell will not have the UK's best interests at heart - only his own.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 05:13 AM

Well said Teribus, I would add that the straw which broke the camel's back regarding the EU was the admittance of poorer countries from Eastern Europe under the "free movement" legislation.

As our workers were losing their jobs to Globalisation, they saw hundreds of thousands of immigrants being admitted annually to "make the economy competitive", while they were being effectively written off by successive governments.
We were also fortunate to have an extremely brave and well informed politician on hand to fight our case.
Without Mr Farage, Brexit would never have happened as our Party Politicians were either too self serving or too cowardly.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:49 AM

(Disregarding that last ignorant intervention by akenaton) Teribus, that was a masterclass in missing the point. There is nothing undemocratic or disgraceful about campaigning for a third referendum. A lot has already changed since last June and a lot more is going to change in the next two years, very likely mostly adversely. Calling for a reconsideration at the end of negotiations, taking into account the intervening ructions in the rest of the world, seems not only legitimate but thoroughly desirable. You are equally entitled to campaign AGAINST a third referendum: in fact, that's kind of what you're doing in your post and whenever you attack Blair for his latest remarks. And as you're so fond of telling us that the British people have spoken, etc., what's so wrong with letting them speak again, as many times as we like? As I asked in my last post, what are you Brexit evangelicals scared of? That the people will misspeak next time?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 09:51 AM

"Calling for a reconsideration at the end of negotiations, taking into account the intervening ructions in the rest of the world, seems not only legitimate but thoroughly desirable." - Shaw

It is you that misses the point.

Reconsideration at the end of negotiations - What negotiations Shaw? The only ones that matter are those with the EU which of course cannot take place until after Article 50 has been triggered and of course everyone knows that once that has been done the process of the UK leaving the EU is irreversible. Having triggered Article 50 the UK would then have to reapply to join the EU - And oh what a wonderful bargaining position we'd be in then - CHUMP.

If things stay on track Article 50 gets triggered sometime next month - best get busy Shaw, shoulder to shoulder with Tony Blair once more.

"taking into account the intervening ructions in the rest of the world" - More inane waffle, like Jom doing his Chicken Little impersonation - The sky is falling!!!! What ructions are going to happen in the world in the next month Shaw that will affect things one way or another?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 10:05 AM

Ructions in the next two years, not month. If you could desist from thinking up your next insult for a second it might help you to focus on what I typed. And there is nothing in any legislation anywhere that says triggering Article 50 is irreversible. Your post is all over the place. Maybe your Sunday roast was overcooked or the gravy too salty or something. Anyway, I'm just watching some of those overpaid Tottenham players slaughtering Fulham in the FA Cup (well, if the strikers could actually do slightly better than missing a barn door from three yards they would be). I recommend it.