BS: We're off, barring an earthquake

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 08:26 AM

As you say, Teribus, we both know and understand the UK has not been in a business vacuum for the last 43 years. But we also both know that one of the things stopping it being a vaccuum was the relationship with the EU. Losing that has an effect. I was quite conciliatory in saying we might not know exactly what for decades. But I stand by what I said: being successful before the existance of the EU is no reason to assume we will be without it. Maybe we will, maybe we won't: time will tell but simply asserting all will be ok is not enough.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stu
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 08:51 AM

"As part of the EU the UK is isolated from the rest of the world."

Oh give over. Do you understand anything about modern capitalism? The EU allows us to trade feely with other member countries (it's our biggest market, remember?) and by acting together as one gives us immense leverage when negotiating trade deals. As for being isolated, the EU provides 50% of ALL gobble development aid, helping poorer nations develop and progress.

Brexit has pissed all that away, and now we have to crawl up Trump's shitter to ingratiate ourselves with his capricious, amoral and unethical regime. This isn't an equal relationship and never will be. How undignified and pathetic does May look as she shills for Trump at the EU, making the UK look like what it now is; doomed to increasing irrelevancy on the world stage except as a poodle and apologist for the US. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 09:11 AM

Stu wrote: the EU provides 50% of ALL gobble development aid

I know it's a typo, we all make them, but I can't help but smile.

Remind me how long it took the EU to do a trade deal with the US before the Ochre Joker kicked it out?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stu
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 09:21 AM

It is a pretty funny typo!


"Remind me how long it took the EU to do a trade deal with the US before the Ochre Joker kicked it out?"

It was dead in the water before Trump was elected, and rightly so in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 09:26 AM

Appallingly, shared hatreds are more contagious and uniting than shared loves.

The stress of misplaced and displaced persons is only just beginning.
Climate change and all that goes with it will adversely effect the 7 Billion people on this Planet. I experienced a world of 2 billion people expanding to 3 Billion. We will not see that population again but the inevitable famine will bring the numbers down.

The enlightened people know what needs to be done but for now it looks like the immortal corporations will own this century.

The shared right wing based hatreds are not the problem. They are the symptoms.

Its the heat not the humidity, humility or the futility.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:01 AM

That was just a macroscopic viewpoint while all of your well informed microscopic observations have their respected place as well.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:31 AM

Extreme stupidity at 08.10am apropos of surnames, Woodcock. 😂

I said only a very short while ago that I am no fan of Diane Abbott and that she deserved the flak she got for sending her child to a fee-paying school. Perhaps, Iains, you would apprise us all as to how that equates to a "mutual appreciation society." You do seem to have a thing about poor Diane, don't you? I reckon you fancy her on the quiet.

Stanron, the single market is TARIFF-FREE for its members. The individual nations still do trading deals with other countries. Got my brand-new Mountain Warehouse gilet this morning. Made in China it was. Last time I checked, we were in the single market but China wasn't. I'm not expecting to be arrested for smuggling.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:51 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Made in China it was. Last time I checked, we were in the single market but China wasn't.

So when we leave we will be able to trade with the EU too. What exactly is the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:56 AM

Tariffs, that's the problem. Duh.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 11:34 AM

Steve, the fact that Diane Abbott chooses to send her child to a private school is a question only of relevance to her and her child. That it will enable her child to have a far better education than from the public sector, or that it stinks of hypocrisy is really none of your business. Perhaps if your and your colleagues in the public sector had achieved better results the private sector would not be constantly growing, and the question of where she chose to educate her child would not arise.
    You are very protective of your own party but subject the President of the United States to all sorts of abuse. Are you schizophrenic? or do you insist your role models are sacrosanct while heaping abuse on those you dislike.
    You cannot seriously expect to have it both ways and maintain some semblance of credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 11:39 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Tariffs, that's the problem. Duh.

Tarriffs work both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 12:33 PM

I totally disapprove of fee-paying schools (which is my business), consider that they should be abolished and assert that no self-respecting socialist would send their children to one. End of.

Your comment about "my party" and the US president is puerile. If you wish to defend Trump here, fire away. Don't forget to defend his Islamophobia, the fact that he is being applauded by fascists such as the KKK, his dismissal of the rule of law, his predatory attitude to women and his concept of building walls being better than building good relations. Once you start your valiant defence of him we may just remind you of a few more of his personal qualities. And, in case you haven't noticed, I've suggested here that Corbyn should now be considering his position.

I have no diagnosed mental illnesses and it behoves you to avoid suggesting that people with whom you disagree may be suffering from one. That is trolling for a start and, coming from you with your extremely shaky and ill-considered opinions and inability to stick to the argument, very unwise.

As for semblances of credibility, you shoot yourself in the foot almost every time you post. If I were you I'd spend a lot more time considering carefully what you post before you send it, and you should stop trying to patronise people here. You look very foolish when you do that.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 12:42 PM

Well, Stanron, we buy £89 billion more in goods from the EU per annum than we sell to the EU. The EU is far and away our largest trading partner, if that's the right word. If we don't get a reasonable deal, which we probably won't, tariffs will hit us hard. The thing is that we are in unknown, dangerous waters. I don't remember that being talked up much in the campaign. Conveniently, the leave campaign thought it was too hard for us to take in. But just wait until the job losses kick in.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 12:48 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Countries don't put tariffs on goods they export, they put tariffs on goods they import. The UK imports more from the EU than the EU imports from the UK. Therefore we, by that I mean our government, will get more out of the exchanges than their EU equivalents. Their goods will become more expensive over here and our exports will become more expensive over there. A short term gain for both governments and only a short term loss for those who can't be bothered to to find non taxed alternatives. Any loss of business as a result of this will be proportionate to the overall size of trade. As a result the EU losses will be greater than the UK losses. You appear to be assuming that the EU will be stupid about this and maximise rather than minimise these losses. If this is so we certainly are better off out.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 01:04 PM

Yebbut it's about those financial services too, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:08 PM

OK, Stanron, you've got me worried as I'm no economist. But if we leave the EU without a decent trade deal, we are well and truly stuffed. Read this article from the Independent (I'm useless at links so you'll have to google it):

Brexit: True cost of UK leaving EU without trade deal revealed

EXCLUSIVE: An analysis by The Independent of official data suggests British exporters would face a cost of at least £4.5bn - and in all likelihood they would take a hit many times larger...

Etc. And why would the EU give us a deal that would have lots of the other members rushing for the door after a similar deal? Ain't gonna happen.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:16 PM

Steve I must be missing something. You quote:-"
Your comment about "my party" and the US president is puerile. If you wish to defend Trump here, fire away"
I do not defend Trump, although his election was certainly the lesser of two evils. I merely point out to you(again) that you feel it quite reasonable to heap opprobrium on President Trump while defending a member of the labour party who missed a vital vote and has still not given a satisfactory explanation to her own party. You make it very clear from your patronizing comments you cannot tolerate any dissent from your single track mindset. Having a "confirmed socialist" posting here constantly is bad enough, the thought of any of you gaining power is frightening. Still we have the consolation Labour has lost all credibility and militant tendency or whatever you socialists like to call yourselves these days, likewise will become history.
Good riddance I say!

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:00 PM

Hello? Did I hear a squeaky noise?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:21 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: But if we leave the EU without a decent trade deal, we are well and truly stuffed.

It's an 'IF' article of course, and if I've got the right one it's nearly five months old. The opinions it expressed don't seem to be part of the current concensus but, as you say, they come up with the cost being £4.5 billion a year.

I did a bit of a search to try and find our current contribution and the best I could come up with was that in 2015 our net contribution was (would be?) over £8.5 billion. I imagine the figure for 2019 would be larger. Let's say that in 2020 it would have been £9 billion. Then a £4.5 billion cost of not paying £9 billion is a saving. Incidentally I also came across an article from 2014 talking about how our contribution was going up by £2.7 billion a year. I can't remember if that actually happened or not but once we leave it won't happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:01 PM

I need to do some study here, I'll be the first to admit. However, while the report is a few months old, I can't see that that much has changed. Everything's an "if" at the moment but things don't look too bright to me for an amazingly good final deal. It's not just a balance of payments argument. It's also about a poor deal shattering confidence among our manufacturing industries and the job losses that could ensue.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 05:47 AM

See your old pal Tony Blair is still banging the drum for EU Membership, and it would appear that Shaw and the "usual suspects" are still 100% behind him.

Pity the press are giving the charlatan the oxygen he requires to remain in the spotlight, he wrought enough harm to the UK when he was elected to an office of immense influence - today he is yesterday's man whose opinions carry no more weight than anyone else's.

What was the job he lusted after when he slipped out of the seat as Prime Minister in favour of Gordon of Cartoon? Oh yes he wanted to be President of the EU. Tell us Shaw what was his bank balance in 1994 compared to what it is now? His property portfolio alone is worth more than £30 million - didn't have anything like that in 1994.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:02 AM

Well tell me about Trump's portfolio too. That's a silly game, frankly. And what's with "still?" I've never been behind Blair and I never voted New Labour! And why are you so uncomfortable with an ex-PM having a public voice? Because you don't agree with him, by any chance? Would you say he has as much right to speak out as, say, the editor of the Daily Mail, who no-one ever voted for? What about the Archbishop of Canterbury, or the string of ex-ones?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:39 AM

Is there any reason why you and the rest of the "usual suspects" can never answer a direct question Shaw?

Tony Blair was nowhere near being a multi-millionaire in 1994 - he sure as hell is now in that time he was:

1. Leader of the Opposition
2. Prime Minister
3. Middle-East Peace envoy

Where and how did he accumulate his wealth and why are we the UK tax-payer still paying for his protection?

Compared to Blair, financially Trump is an open book.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:45 AM

I really don't give a flying fart. We are stuck with rich elites, especially in the US, whether we like it or not. So, as they appear in general to be the people who usually run things, we have to take note. Just hold your nose and stop being scared of Blair. Believe me, he's a bloody pussycat next to Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 08:09 AM

Who's the "WE" Shaw, I fortunately am not bothered by any such "rich elite", how does this "bothering" manifest itself? I can see how the wages bill at Anfield might upset some in far more deserving yet lower paid occupations, but as you are a "fan" your club's super-stars get a free pass.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 10:53 AM

"Compared to Blair, financially Trump is an open book."
Ask the students he tried to rip off how "open" hs book is.
Not sure of the significance of comparing Blair
Blair is a right-wing politician and possible war criminal - one of the predators of the British Parliamentary system
Perhaps you mean he is a British crook rather than an American one??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 12:41 PM

Certainly no free pass from me. I consider the wages of the top premier league players to be obscene. But, Teribus, let me apprise you of why they get paid so much. Do stop me if at any time you feel embarrassed, by the way. It's the market, Teribus. It's pure and simple capitalism. Competition among top clubs for top players. Supply and demand. TV companies, prepared to pay billions for the rights to show matches, bid more and more each year. They recoup those billions from advertising (that's why the poor old Beeb gets to show highlights only). Advertising for the goods that you and I have to buy. It's how big corporations make money. Ultimately, you pay. It's all about the profit motive. And the shareholders, who do even less work for their money than those footballers! Don't let's forget the shareholders! Gosh, you haven't stopped me yet! Surprise, surprise! The very system that you espouse, that you champion, that you're scared that "the left" want to dismantle, is the system than ensures that those footballers get all that money that you're complaining about! Well, Teribus, let me tell you that I'm right with you! LETS DUMP CAPITALISM TOGETHER! 🗑💰🗑

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 01:55 PM

Comprehension Shaw, comprehension. What part of me not being "bothered" by a rich elite do you not understand - they clearly "bother" you though.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 01:59 PM

Well, Twitler and his Cabinet are all the rich elite- and most thinking persons find them "bothersome" at the very least.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 02:05 PM

You accused me of giving footballers a free pass. Which I don't. I was wondering why footballers earning big money upset you more than spivs in the City, non-doms, tax evaders, oligarchs who buy up expensive properties in London, hedge-fund managers and bankers, none of whom yiu ever give a negative mention to. Oh, I forgot: all those people are more directly emblematic of the capitalist system you adore. Poor old footie players only entertain the hoi-polloi, don't they, so they're a bit easier to have a bash at, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 04:37 PM

Good heavens Shaw, you and your clichéd socialist "stereotypes" are showing. Let's have a good look at your list shall we?


1: The so called spivs in the City. The ones that are part of the fact that they work and operate the largest financial hub in the world. the one that accounts for a massive proportion of this nations GDP and a massive contributor to the nations coffers. Without them our country would be immensely poorer.

2: Non-doms, tend to be foreign, rich and influential, they bring money into the country and are useful in establishing contacts related to UK business interests abroad.

3: Tax evaders? If you know any Shaw it is your duty as a citizen to report them to the authorities. Or did you mean Tax Avoiders? What they do is perfectly legal - You find professional footballers in both groups.

4: Oligarchs who buy up expensive properties in London, well somebody has to do it and I would prefer that they spend their money here than elsewhere. By the way professional footballers also buy expensive properties in London.

5: Hedge-fund managers, do you draw a pension from your former employer Shaw? I ask because of the many in the UK who do you will find that those Hedge-Fund Managers had a great deal to do with ensuring that you get paid it, so don't knock 'em mate they do a very important job for the elderly of our country. What interest does a bank pay you on your savings Shaw? the hedge-fund manager and his pals got me 16.69% on my "savings" last year - that is the sort of performance when applied to far larger investors like Insurance Companies and pension funds ensures that pensions continue to get paid - I would have thought you'd know that all Trades Union Pension funds use them.

6: Bankers, the world could not function without them.

The world operates under a capitalist system and has done for a number of centuries now. Those who attempted other systems have gone to the wall - ask the U.S.S.R. Perhaps you should try reality instead of complete and utter bollocks Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 05:28 PM

Yes, I'm afraid MrT is perfectly correct, and I say that as a lifelong socialist......There is absolutely no chance of a socialist administration taking power any time soon, nor in the present circumstances would it be beneficial.

If we do not want the country to lapse into "failed State" mode a capitalist government which is prepared to govern in an efficient manner is the only answer, that means getting our people back into work and exiting the EU. The "liberal" dream is exactly what it says on the tin.....a myth.
Promulgated by people who basically hate their country and treat huge sections of the population with derision.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:24 PM

"Reality," Teribus? So where do you think those top footie players get their dosh from? Why, capitalism! You're very quick to defend the spivs, bankers, hedge funds, etc.,that rip us all off. but then you attack the footballers who work in a system just the same as that lot who rip us all off, forgetting that they provide entertainment for tens of millions every week. You don't like it? Tough shit. I don't like the yuppie-descendants either but I can't get away from their baleful influence. You pay for the advertising that pays the footballers' wages, so sit at home and fume. Tough shit again. But YOUR guys just about wrecked the world economy, whereas with my team you can just turn the telly off. You have nothing to complain about, have you?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 02:11 AM

As stated previously Shaw. I am not bothered by the group you refer to as "The Rich Elite" - You however, obviously are. I have no problem at all with professional footballers or "manufactured" pop stars. If people are mug enough to pay for the entertainment they provide then more fool them.

By the way me pointing out the reality that your list included many who make a massive contribution to the economic wellbeing of our country does not make those groups of people "MINE" it makes them "OURS" and their contribution is far greater and far more important than that of YOUR entertainers.

These people who you said ripped us off were themselves ripped off massively on the strength of a lie deliberately implied and fostered by Bill Clinton's Democratic Administration back in 1998 when they thought it would be good for the Democrats in the 2000 election for people to be fed a line of credit that they should never have been considered for under normal circumstances. At the time the implied lie told those lending the money was that all such loans would be guaranteed by the US Federal Reserve (Of course the US Federal Reserve was never consulted - probably because they would have said no - and as the source of this implied lie was the US Government it was never questioned).

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 03:52 AM

Senoufou, you may be interested in this article by Atul Gawande about headaches and how a good medical service works, and with interesting stuff about vertigo.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:13 AM

As I've explained, Teribus, it's all capitalism, and, ultimately, you pay for the footballers' wages via the more expensive stuff you buy which is more expensive because of the advertisers who pay out the billions to telly companies who then pay the football clubs. And hey, you raised the Anfield lads first! You should watch more football on the telly, mate. It's not like the good old days when the team coach stopped at the chippy for lunch on the way to the match, games were played on mudbath pitches in front of shivering hordes of fans who were nearly all standing up, and the players were brain-damaged by a ball that got heavier and heavier as it absorbed water as the match went on. By the end of the match it was like heading a bag of nutty slack. Today there is amazing speed and skill, the grounds are great and the lads look after themselves. No ten pints and a twenty-pack at the pub after training for them! And just think, if you begin to enjoy it you'll at least be getting something back for that investment in footballers pay that capitalism forced you to make!

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:17 AM

Yes, a missed bloody apostrophe. Dont think I didnt notice it's omission.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 10:57 AM

Never, ever been remotely interested in football Shaw but I suppose you are referring back to the days when we could actually perform well and win international competitions, as opposed to now.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 05:30 PM

Well I love it and I'm getting something back from my involuntary contributions to top players' wages, unlike you. Shame about Burnley today though. The team of my youth and my dad's side. Boo hoo.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:05 PM

I'm really fed up with this stuff about it being "defying the people's will" to call for a chance to stop Brexit. Our whole semidemocracy is founded on the principle that after every election the opposition sets out to change "the people's will", as expressed in that election, and at the next election to succeed in getting people to reject the result of that election.

Democracy is all about challenging "the people's will". The logic of this "defying the people's will" is that once there's been an election we should all line up with the winners, and never have another election. That's the way dictators typically operate.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:52 PM

I agree with every word of that. And, whilst I strongly dislike Blair, and aside from the fact that his intervention is severely ill-timed with regard to upcoming by-elections, I can find nothing to disagree with in his remarks. In 1975 we voted, overwhelmingly, to stay in Europe. For most of the time since then there have been calls from eurosceptics for a second referendum. So, in June last year, we got our second referendum. Ah yes, you may say, but the EU is very different now to what is was then (though let's not indulge in too much hyperbole there), so a new vote was legitimate. The self-same people who called for that second referendum now condemn anyone calling for a third referendum as undemocratic. Well I'll make the same argument as they made when they wanted last June's referendum: on a particular day we made a rather simple decision to leave the EU. Well, since then a lot of things have changed, such as the near-collapse of Sterling, the threat of inflation coupled to suppressed wages, the rise of fascism in Europe and a dangerous and unpredictable idiot installed in the White House. That isn't all: once negotiations begin, we will hear of many more adverse decisions made against us. By the time we get to leaving day, maybe in 2018, the world is going to be a very different place to what it is today. So calls for a third (not a second) referendum are no less democratic than Farage, Teribus and co. demanding that that we shouldn't have one. I really have to wonder what it is they're scared of.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 09:33 PM

Admitted to the EEC 1973 sold to the British public as us joining a simple trading block (Basically lied to by our own government)
Referendum on whether to stay in 1975 what was supposed to be a trading block (Again lied to by our own Government)

Now I make that an interval of two years

Maastricht Treaty altered the EEC that we voted to join - British electorate not consulted
Lisbon Treaty introduced by the back door that markedly altered the EU we did not vote or seek to join - British electorate incensed at not being given the opportunity to have a say in this change ( Referendum promised by Brown but the Government reneged on it)
Referendum to leave 2016

I make that an interval of 41 years since last decision was put to the electorate of the UK.

Now apparently the "Remoaners" want a second referendum supported by Tony Blair (Failed EU Presidential Candidate) within 8 months - You have got to be joking.

The EU is currently in turmoil, people from all sides have been screaming that the EU requires radical reform and up until six months before the UK Referendum the EU has steadfastly refused to contemplate even the most modest reform programme - Now that the UK has voted to leave the EU is about to topple over an abyss?? It would appear that we have far greater influence leaving than ever we did being part of it - Even then what word of reform from the EU Commission?? - NOTHING - Under such circumstances I'd say it deserves to fail.

By the way what is "Tone" hoping to get out of this "intervention" of his? Another shot at becoming the next President of the EU - One thing is for certain he sure as hell will not have the UK's best interests at heart - only his own.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 05:13 AM

Well said Teribus, I would add that the straw which broke the camel's back regarding the EU was the admittance of poorer countries from Eastern Europe under the "free movement" legislation.

As our workers were losing their jobs to Globalisation, they saw hundreds of thousands of immigrants being admitted annually to "make the economy competitive", while they were being effectively written off by successive governments.
We were also fortunate to have an extremely brave and well informed politician on hand to fight our case.
Without Mr Farage, Brexit would never have happened as our Party Politicians were either too self serving or too cowardly.

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 07:49 AM

(Disregarding that last ignorant intervention by akenaton) Teribus, that was a masterclass in missing the point. There is nothing undemocratic or disgraceful about campaigning for a third referendum. A lot has already changed since last June and a lot more is going to change in the next two years, very likely mostly adversely. Calling for a reconsideration at the end of negotiations, taking into account the intervening ructions in the rest of the world, seems not only legitimate but thoroughly desirable. You are equally entitled to campaign AGAINST a third referendum: in fact, that's kind of what you're doing in your post and whenever you attack Blair for his latest remarks. And as you're so fond of telling us that the British people have spoken, etc., what's so wrong with letting them speak again, as many times as we like? As I asked in my last post, what are you Brexit evangelicals scared of? That the people will misspeak next time?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 09:51 AM

"Calling for a reconsideration at the end of negotiations, taking into account the intervening ructions in the rest of the world, seems not only legitimate but thoroughly desirable." - Shaw

It is you that misses the point.

Reconsideration at the end of negotiations - What negotiations Shaw? The only ones that matter are those with the EU which of course cannot take place until after Article 50 has been triggered and of course everyone knows that once that has been done the process of the UK leaving the EU is irreversible. Having triggered Article 50 the UK would then have to reapply to join the EU - And oh what a wonderful bargaining position we'd be in then - CHUMP.

If things stay on track Article 50 gets triggered sometime next month - best get busy Shaw, shoulder to shoulder with Tony Blair once more.

"taking into account the intervening ructions in the rest of the world" - More inane waffle, like Jom doing his Chicken Little impersonation - The sky is falling!!!! What ructions are going to happen in the world in the next month Shaw that will affect things one way or another?

Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 10:05 AM

Ructions in the next two years, not month. If you could desist from thinking up your next insult for a second it might help you to focus on what I typed. And there is nothing in any legislation anywhere that says triggering Article 50 is irreversible. Your post is all over the place. Maybe your Sunday roast was overcooked or the gravy too salty or something. Anyway, I'm just watching some of those overpaid Tottenham players slaughtering Fulham in the FA Cup (well, if the strikers could actually do slightly better than missing a barn door from three yards they would be). I recommend it.