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BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Keith A of Hertford 24 May 17 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 17 - 05:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 17 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 17 - 01:42 PM
Jim Carroll 23 May 17 - 01:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 17 - 12:08 PM
Jim Carroll 23 May 17 - 10:30 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 17 - 10:27 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 17 - 09:30 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 17 - 08:25 AM
bobad 23 May 17 - 08:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 17 - 07:06 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 17 - 06:59 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 17 - 06:52 AM
bobad 23 May 17 - 06:31 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 17 - 06:24 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 17 - 06:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 17 - 06:01 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 17 - 05:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 17 - 05:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 17 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 17 - 12:48 PM
Jim Carroll 22 May 17 - 11:36 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 17 - 11:11 AM
The Sandman 22 May 17 - 08:05 AM
Teribus 22 May 17 - 07:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 17 - 06:57 AM
The Sandman 22 May 17 - 06:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 17 - 04:04 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 17 - 03:11 AM
Teribus 22 May 17 - 01:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 17 - 01:22 PM
Jim Carroll 21 May 17 - 11:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 17 - 10:55 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 17 - 08:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 17 - 02:41 PM
Jim Carroll 20 May 17 - 12:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 17 - 12:15 PM
Teribus 20 May 17 - 12:02 PM
Jim Carroll 20 May 17 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 17 - 11:28 AM
bobad 20 May 17 - 11:25 AM
bobad 20 May 17 - 10:59 AM
Teribus 20 May 17 - 10:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 17 - 10:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 17 - 10:08 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 17 - 09:38 AM
bobad 20 May 17 - 08:37 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 17 - 08:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 17 - 04:49 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 17 - 06:09 AM

Jim,
Just your disgusting invention of an enmity between Ben Gurion and Nahum Goldman - you made it up.


"Goldmann's animosity toward Ben-Gurion was both longstanding and well known;"

You lose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 17 - 05:00 AM

Piss off Keith
Yiou have been givven loads and loads of evidence which you choose to ignore - you offer none
You are your old usual waste of space
Bo-ring
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 17 - 04:36 AM

Jim,
"was his prediction in 1949 about the refugees who had left Israel."
Do you have any basis for claiming this


Yes.
From your post,
"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinians] never do return ... The old will die and the young will forget," said David Ben-Gurion, the founder of Israel, in 1949."
It is obvious from the context that he was talking about the Arabs who had left Israel in 48/49.


Just your disgusting invention of an enmity between Ben Gurion and Nahum Goldman - you made it up.

"Did Ben-Gurion really say that? Maybe. It's just that (a) there is no independent verification of the quote; (b) it jibes perfectly (suspiciously so) with Goldmann's own views; (c) Goldmann's animosity toward Ben-Gurion was both longstanding and well known; (d) Goldmann waited some twenty-three years after the statement was allegedly made to publicize it; and (e) Ben-Gurion, conveniently dead for five years at the time of the book's publication, was in no position to acknowledge or deny Goldmann's veracity."
http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/media-monitor/the-goldmann-paradox/2013/08/21/

"Remember that the far more numerous Jewish refugees who had been thrown out of Arab states were given no hope of ever returning."

It is a fact that many more Jews than Arabs were displaced in 1948-49
Now there are no displaced Jews because Israel settled them all, but millions of Arab refugees because the Arab states refused to settle them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:42 PM

Another
"A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. ? I am certain that we well not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreements with our Arab neighbors or by some other means. . . [If the Arabs refuse] we shall have to speak to them in another language. But we shall only have another language if we have a state."
As quoted in Chomsky, Noam, Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians (Updated Edition) (South End Press Classics Series).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:06 PM

"No Jim. I have produced what he really said."
So you7 are saying I have invented them - you called me a liar, so that is the only conclusion to be reached
I have given you at least half a dozen exaples oeof exactly what he said - You choose the one that suits
"was his prediction in 1949 about the refugees who had left Israel."
Do you have any basis for claiming this - especially in the light of the pronounced intention of the founder of Zionism of driving all Arabs out?
No - of course you haven't
Just your disgusting invention of an enmity between Ben Gurion and Nahum Goldman - you made it up.
"Remember that the far more numerous Jewish refugees who had been thrown out of Arab states were given no hope of ever returning."
Absolute ******* nonsense
Palestinian refugees that have been driven out of their homeland without a hope of returning make up the largest number of any national group of refugees on the planet - there are 6.5 million Palestinian refugees scattered over the world today
Want to produce your figure
No?
Thought not!
You are a liar and a fanatic Keith
Jim Carroll

More to ignore - you've had all these before, but it's fun putting them up again to see you ignore them
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992
        
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
        
Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001
        
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - present


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 12:08 PM

You have been given the source to all these quotes, who made them and when and where they were made and you offer nothing but denials in return

No Jim. I have produced what he really said.
The people you support have to lie because they have no case otherwise.

The quote "The old will die and the young will forget..." was his prediction in 1949 about the refugees who had left Israel.

Remember that the far more numerous Jewish refugees who had been thrown out of Arab states were given no hope of ever returning. Israel had to settle them all.
The Arab states chose not to resettle the Arab refugees, incarcerating them in camps without human rights or hope to the present day!

The old Jewish refugees have died and the young have forgot, but happily in the Jewish state.
That is how it should have happened for Arab refugees in the Arab states.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 10:30 AM

MANFRED GERSTENFELD ELD ATTACKS HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS ANND OTHER FELLOW JEWS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 10:27 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 09:30 AM

"Liar Jim's fake quote,"
You have been given the source to all these quotes, who made them and when and where they were made and you offer nothing but denials in return
You have just accepted that thois one was genuine by inventing the stupidly untrue suggestion that "Goldman was an enemy of Ben-Gurion."
You aren't even bright enough to stick to your own excuses
Now you are flailing around to defend what was said.
I don't tell lies - I never have
You, in contrast, have heaped up lie after lie to push your hate-filled agenda.
That's what you people do
Your blustering idiot of a mate asked if I would like to be linked to me claiming to know more than the signatories of the treaty - I said "yes please"
He rode off into the sunset.
He claimed to produce have produced a lisrt of my "lies" - he produces only a list of things I have said which contradict his own unqualified arguments
That makes him a meglomanic liar
I have just given you a whole bundle of statements by Ben Gurion, Theodor Hertzl and others - you choose to pretend they are not there
That makes you a liar.

"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinians] never do return ... The old will die and the young will forget," said David Ben-Gurion, the founder of Israel, in 1949."
Is the GUARDIAN lying
Did I make all this up - if not, it is you who is lying
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:25 AM

Well I don't agree with him. And I should like to remind you that attacking the policies of Israeli regimes is not the same as attacking the state of Israel. I don't know how many times I have to tell you: I support the state of Israel and its continued existence. I should like to see Israeli leaders develop the vision to enable all the people of Israel, Jew and non-Jew alike, to have far greater security and peace than they currently endure. They are miles from that at present.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:03 AM

Well I tend to refer to the politicians, in other words the Israeli regimes.

New antisemitism is the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, emanating simultaneously from the far-left, radical Islam, and the far-right, and that it tends to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the State of Israel. The concept generally posits that much of what is purported to be criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.

Manfred Gerstenfeld, The Deep Roots of Anti-Semitism in European Society. Jewish Political Studies Review 17:1-2 Spring 2005


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 07:06 AM

Liar Jim's fake quote,
"We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66).,

What ben Gurion really said, liar.
"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption ? proven throughout all our activity in the Land ? that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs. "
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:59 AM

"Lying and fabricating are the stock-in-trade of Jew haters."
Being one yourself - you should know Bobad
You are the only one ever to have attacked Jews on this forum
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:52 AM

Well I tend to refer to the politicians, in other words the Israeli regimes. You are obsessed with mentioning Jews. Jim's right about you, isn't he. By constantly associating the Jews with wrongdoing, something that neither Jim nor I ever do, you are in effect the most prominent antisemite on this board. We talk about politicians. Why can't you do the same?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:31 AM

Lying and fabricating are the stock-in-trade of Jew haters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:24 AM

Palestinian groups and leaders have been presented with charade after charade dressed up as "peace negotiations" by Israeli regimes that never have to give an inch. Cheers to the US for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:02 AM

"Goldman was an enemy of Ben-Gurion."
No he was't
"After the war he worked actively with David Ben-Gurion towards the creation of Israel,[28] although he, with Moshe Shertok, advised Ben-Gurion, in vain, that the declaration of independence be delayed in order to allow more time for reaching a diplomatic entente with the Arabs.[29][30][31] He was concerned that an Arab-Israeli war would break out after the British left their Mandate and the State of Israel was proclaimed.[citation needed]"
You are making this up - why should you do this - thetorical question - you can't stop lying through your teeth
Even if he was he would not make such a thing up publicly - a leading and respected Zionist lying about a respected Jewish Zionist leader - are you completely insane
Zionists have intended to drive out the Arabs as far back as THeodor Hertzl - whose quote you chose to ignore
The other quote from Ben Gurion regarding driving out Arabs comes fro a letter to his son in 1937
Now respond to everything, not just the bits you think you can wriggle around

Some more quotes for you to ignore or deny
"Ben-Gurion said yesterday that he was prepared to accept the [Peel partition] proposal of the Royal commission but on two conditions: [Jewish] sovereignty and compulsory transfer ..... As for the compulsory transfer-- as a member of Kibbutz Ramat Hakovsh [founded in 1932 in central Palestine] I would be very pleased if it would be possible to be rid of the pleasant neighborliness of the people of Miski, Tirah, and Qalqilyah." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 70)
"With regard to the refugees, we are determined to be adamant while the war lasts. Once the return tide starts, it will be impossible to stem it, and it will prove our undoing. As for the future, we are equally determined to explore all possibilities of getting rid, once and for all, of the huge [Palestinian] Arab minority [referring to the Palestinian Israeli citizens of Israel] which originally threatened us. What can be achieved in this period of storm and stress [referring to the 1948 war] will be quite unattainable once conditions get stabilized. A group of people [headed by Yosef Weitz] has already started working on the study of resettlement possibilities [for the Palestinian refugees] in other lands . . . What such permanent resettlement of 'Israeli' Arabs in the neighboring territories will mean in terms of making land available in Israel for settlement of our own people requires no emphasis." (Benny Morris, p. 149-150)
"I imagine that the INTENTION is to get rid of them. The interests of security demand that we get rid of them." (1949, The First Israelis, p. 28)
Ben-Gurion commented on the proposed Peel Commission Partition plan as follows in 1937:
"We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66).,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:01 AM

Also no Palestinian leaders or groups.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:49 AM

What a shame then that these alleged aspirations of Ben Gurion are still a million miles from being achieved. The fact that that no Israeli regime has ever shown any appetite for achieving them is at the root of most of the problems the Middle East has endured for over half a century.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:28 AM

"questionable, Unverified Source: Clifford claims that Ben-Gurion wrote: "If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural, we have taken their country." In fact, according to Nahum Goldmann, Ben-Gurion allegedly said this to him. Goldmann was an adversary of Ben-Gurion, and he came out with this alleged quote, verbatim, in his book published two decades later (The Jewish Paradox, 1978), five years after Ben-Gurion died. There was no recording of the quote, and Ben-Gurion was no longer around to dispute it."

"And, finally, here's a real Ben-Gurion quote that Clifford chose not to share:
In our state there will be non-Jews as well ? and all of them will be equal citizens; equal in everything without any exception; that is: the state will be their state as well. ...The attitude of the Jewish State to its Arab citizens will be an important factor?though not the only one?in building good neighbourly relations with the Arab States. If the Arab citizen will feel at home in our state, and if his status will not be the least different from that of the Jew, and perhaps better than the status of the Arab in an Arab state, and if the state will help him in a truthful and dedicated way to reach the economic, social, and cultural level of the Jewish community, then Arab distrust will accordingly subside and a bridge to a Semitic, Jewish-Arab alliance, will be built... (Ba-Ma'Araha Vol IV, Part 2, pp. 260, 265, quoted in Fabricating Israeli History, Efraim Karsh, p.67)"
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

Read the rest to see another faked quote and a list of real quotes that give the lie to what you claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:08 AM

Jim,
Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

Goldman was an enemy of Ben-Gurion.
No-one but Goldman heard him say it. He claims it was in a private conversation, that he never mentioned for ten years then put it in his book when Ben Gurion was safely dead.
It contradicts everything he really said.

In no sense is such an unsubstantiated claim a "documented fact" and you know that because I have put this before you at least twice before.
The quote is a fake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 17 - 12:48 PM

Incidentally
Another quote for you to deny, this time from Theodor Herzl - founder of modern Zionism

The earliest insider information we have on Zionism's thinking is from the diary of Theodor Herzl, the founding father of Zionism's colonial-like enterprise. He wrote:
"We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country? expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
Those words were committed to paper by Herzl in 1895 but they were not published (in other words they were suppressed) until 1962.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 17 - 11:36 AM

"If that is not just another lie, QUOTE ME DOING IT!!"
Nearly forgot
Exactly how many times have you denied this
It's certainly documented - hasn't stopped you denying it - witout a shred of proof
"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
You certainly claim to know more than:
"Nahum Goldmann (Hebrew: נחום גולדמן‎) (July 10, 1895 ? August 29, 1982) was a leading Zionist and the founder and longtime president of the World Jewish Congress."
I won't even begin to mention the number of times you have dismissed fully documented evidence on the Sabra Shatila massacre - or fully documented reports of the atrocities that took place during the Gaza incursions, or the documented condemnation of the Israeli settlments from international bodies
Your whole arguments have been based on denial of facts - you have never offered anything else.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 17 - 11:11 AM

"shall I dig out your post where you claimed to know better than Arthur Griffith and George Gavan Duffy "
Please do - three Joms doesn't inspire confidence though
You never learn, do you?
Silly little strutter
"she now denounces the IRA for what they did"
Oh that's all right then
Nothing like pragmatism to stay in politics
I wonder if this will emerge during the election - I doubt it somehow
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/britains-secret-terror-deals-truly-disturbing-bbc-panorama-allegations-of-collusion-must-be-fully-investigated-says-amnesty-international-31261593.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 17 - 08:05 AM

KEITH,you need to relisten to the interview.he denounced the violence, that is the same thing it denounces ira violence and uda and uvf violence and violkence by britsh armed forces like bloody sunday , and even handed denunciation of all violence by all involved and that includes the violence of the british army.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 17 - 07:06 AM

Oh Jom, thought you'd have known better:

"It was you wasn't it who claimed that you knew more about the negotiations related to the Anglo-Irish Treaty" - my claim

to which you responded - "Liar - I have never made such a claim"

But you did Jom, shall I dig out your post where you claimed to know better than Arthur Griffith and George Gavan Duffy what went on behind closed doors at 22 Hans Place, Knightsbridge in December 1921.

You forget Jom, I have a far better memory than you, I have a far better grasp of detail than you and a far better understanding of history than you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 17 - 06:57 AM

I believe she stood down because of her past, but was re-elected.
Unlike Corbyn and McDonnell, she now denounces the IRA for what they did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 17 - 06:36 AM

a conservative councillor[,MariaGatland] for croydon is a fomer IRA MEMBER


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 17 - 04:04 AM

Not them - Keith's deliberate misrepresentation of what they said

Lie. I always provided linked quotes.

Don't insult outr intelligence by denying documented facts Keith

If that is not just another lie, QUOTE ME DOING IT!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 17 - 03:11 AM

"have you, or your pals ever been able to "shoot down in flames2
Not them - Keith's deliberate misrepresentation of what they said
Unlike you pair of half-wits, I have never challenged experts in their field other than to put contrary arguments by other experts
You, on the other hand, put up virtually nothing and dismiss everything that doesn't fit your agenda as "made up shit"
"It was you wasn't it who claimed that you knew more about the negotiations related to the Anglo-Irish Treaty"
Liar - I have never made such a claim
On the contrary - your entire case on Ireland has been based on ignorance of and hate for the Irish people - brainwashed children, celebrations for mass murder, the gullibility of a nation who really didn't want independence but were conned into it by foreigners....
At the time the whole of Ireland was commemorating the event that virually ended Britain's dominance over the country you weer depicting them as bloodthirsty morons - you are a pair of racist idiots, and like all racists you are both as thick as pig-shit about the people you attempt to invoke hatred against
Your intranegent refusal to accept documented facts was spectacularly demonstrated with your total refusal to accept what had been written about Bin Laden's business dealings - didn't fit so it wasn't true
Sabra Stadium couldn't be used as it was a wreck, Falagists being moved in from the airport, bulldozers being used to bury bodies...... all backed up with written evidence, all dismissed as "made up Carroll shit".
I certainly know more than you pair of comedians, but who doesn't
You think you can put this over by talking down to people - you are totally unable to stop yourself from doing it "Jom"
Know nothings tend to be like that
You want an example of your team idiocy
"I do not believe it because I am well read on this,"
I very much doubt if Keith has ever read a book from cover to cover in his like - his is a world of hastily cgathered and selective cut-'n-pastes (you are so arrogant, you can't even be bothered to do that - you just pontificate in a bullying manner and hope nobody checks)
No quotes contradicting the statement in question, not a single shred of evidence he has read anything (thought all out arguments - he even admitted he was "just putting Israel's case"
Arguing on the basis of just one side's point of view and failing to put things in context is not being "well read"
Keith appears to be coming down with a nasty bout of the giggles - perhaps he should lay off the sauce
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 17 - 01:43 AM

Hi Jom which "real historians and experts" have you, or your pals ever been able to "shoot down in flames"? The total arrogance of that statement defies description. That you, armed with all your intolerance and bigotry cloaked in ignorance that in someone of your years is remarkable can argue that you know more about history than those who have made it their lives work studying the subject. But there again I am not surprised. It was you wasn't it who claimed that you knew more about the negotiations related to the Anglo-Irish Treaty than those who actually took part in the discussions themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 17 - 01:22 PM

Jim,
"I do not believe that Ben Gurian "wrote" any such thing. Where did he?"
as does Teribus, constantly and you offer nothing in return


I do not believe it because I am well read on this, and it contradicts everything he really said.

You claim it but you can't verify it because it is not true.
Will you verify it now? Ha ha ha!

You said, "Don't insult outr intelligence by denying documented facts Keith

So tell us what "documented facts" I have denied!

Will you?
Ha ha ha ha!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 17 - 11:31 AM

"What have I claimed that was not verified Jim?"
What have you verified Keith?
You've stopped putting up "real historians and experts" since they were all shot down in flames, you never respond to what has been put up other than to deny it outright, you claim that linked articles have been invented by me
"I do not believe that Ben Gurian "wrote" any such thing. Where did he?"
as does Teribus, constantly and you offer nothing in return
You are now the worst kind of bore - a self-important individual who appears to believe himself to be interesting and certainly authoritative enough to believe he has the right to manipulate and censor discussion
You offer nothing - your presence here seems to be attention seeking and your honest, what little there was of it - went on holiday a long tome ago.
I an co and count the brick if I want to be bored so if you have notheing constructive to say - I'm off
Jim arroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 17 - 10:55 AM

You have claimed before to have "documented facts," but when asked for them all we got was bluster and vacuous, infantile abuse.
Just like now.

What have I claimed that was not verified Jim?
Specify, and I will oblige.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 08:16 PM

Perhaps this time you will actually tell us what they are!!"
You sick, stupid litle man
You offer nothing yourself and lie about not being given anything
Typical of what the State of Israel has become in the hands of the extreme right, but, just lieke David Iriving, they make an effort at pretense
Any moron can just deny, but it takes a special breed tp persistently lie in public
Before you ask for an example - how about - "Perhaps this time you will actually tell us what they are!!"
You really do have no self respect, do you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 17 - 02:41 PM

Don't insult outr intelligence by denying documented facts Keith

Not them again!
Perhaps this time you will actually tell us what they are!!
I can't wait!

You've been given the actual quorte a dozen times - denying facts is your metier

Ben Gurion never said it. The only evidence is one person who claimed to have heard it, in private, kept quiet about it for twenty years, then wrote a book!
Ben Gurion never said it, never mind wrote it as just claimed.
If he did, give us the reference liar.

You and your bullshitting mate produce nothing but claims that you can not substantiate. Made up claims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 12:50 PM

"It is not a war crime. Israel has never been shown guilty of one."
If it had not been committing war crimes America wouldn't have had to prevent it from being tried by using so many vetoes
Don't insult outr intelligence by denying documented facts Keith
You have been given them - now where are yours?
""Not true Jim,"
You've been given the actual quorte a dozen times - denying facts is your metier
What was the point of your paste in from Wiki?"
Not for your benefit Keith - but if you want to know, get someone to explain it for you
"I do not believe that Ben Gurian "wrote" any such thing. Where did he?"
Fuck off Keith - you've been given the article - take it up with them - you might try spelling the name corectly before you search for it.
You and your bullshitting mate produce nothing but denials - at least your counterpart, David Irving, makes an effort
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 17 - 12:15 PM

OK, but why single out Israel?"B=ecause they aare the one we are talking about and those are the ones you choose to defend
The fact that Israel is not alone in commuting war crimes and human rights atrocities does not alter the fact one iota


It is not a war crime. Israel has never been shown guilty of one.
You always and only refer to Jewish settlers, and never the illegal Chinese settlers in Tibet, illegal Turkish settlers in Cyprus, illegal Russian settlers in the Baltic states, etc.

According to Ben Gurion, it was stolen

Not true Jim, and what was the point of your paste in from Wiki?

Your "Foreign Policy Journal" article describes Israel's right to exist as a myth.
That outrageous claim demands that the whole piece be dismissed.

I do not believe that Ben Gurian "wrote" any such thing. Where did he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 20 May 17 - 12:02 PM

Where and when have I ever made up information Jom. Got any examples of me doing that? If I did it would be the easiest thing in the world to refute what information I have given. Yet you and your pals have never once been able to do that. Now why is that Jom? Answer of course is simple and obvious, the information, facts and detail I provide are correct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 11:46 AM

You continue to ignore the information you are given and simply make up your own and you dare to call facts "made up shit"
You are a friggin' bullying megalomanic Teribus
Jim Carroll
More to ignore
Declaration of intent by Ben Gurion
"When the idea of partition was first raised years earlier, for instance, Ben-Gurion had written that "after we become a strong force, as the result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine". Partition should be accepted, he argued, "to prepare the ground for our expansion into the whole of Palestine". The Jewish State would then "have to preserve order", if the Arabs would not acquiesce, "by machine guns, if necessary."
FOREIGN POLICY JOURNAL
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 11:28 AM

"Keep on spouting your filth Carroll - "Keep cowering behind your anonymity and blaming the Jewish People for Israeli war crimes and you'll continue to be regarded as an antisemitic troll
"
OK, but why single out Israel?"B=ecause they aare the one we are talking about and those are the ones you choose to defend
The fact that Israel is not alone in commuting war crimes and human rights atrocities does not alter the fact one iota
Stop being stupid
I would be equally condemnatory if we were discussion American or Former Yugoslavian war crimes
Pointing at others is no defence, you silly little man
" As far as I am aware no land was given to anybody - more Jim "made-up-shit"."
No?
According to Ben Gurion, it was stolen
"The 1948 Palestinian exodus, also known as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎‎, "al-Nakbah", literally "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm"),[1] occurred when more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Palestine war.[2] Between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were sacked during the war, while urban Palestine was almost entirely extinguished.[3] The term "nakba" also refers to the period of war itself and events affecting Palestinians from December 1947 to January 1949.
The precise number of refugees, many of whom settled in refugee camps in neighboring states, is a matter of dispute[4] but around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (50 percent of the Arab total of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[5][6] Approximately 250,000-300,000 Palestinians had fled or been expelled prior to the Israeli Declaration of Independence in May 1948; a fact which was named as a causus belli for the entry of the Arab League into the country, sparking the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
The causes are also a subject of fundamental disagreement between historians. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare and fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre,[7]:239?240 which caused many to leave out of panic; direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities; the voluntary self-removal of the wealthier classes;[8] collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders.[9][10] and an unwillingness to live under Jewish control.[11][dubious ? discuss][12]
Later, a series of laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented them from returning to their homes, or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees.[13][14] The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing,[15][16][17] while others dispute this charge.[18][19][20]
The status of the refugees, and in particular whether Israel will grant them their claimed right to return to their homes or be compensated, are key issues in the ongoing Israeli?Palestinian conflict. The events of 1948 are commemorated by Palestinians both in the Palestinian territories and elsewhere on 15 May, a date now known as Nakba Day."
Wiki
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 17 - 11:25 AM

As for the myth of thousands years of Arab presence in what is today Israel see Palaestina, ex monumentis veteribus illustrata written by the Dutch scholar and orientalist Adrian Reland. In 1695 Reland undertook a tour of Israel, known as Palestina at the time, and surveyed 2,500 places where people lived at that time.

His most prominent conclusions:

1. Not one settlement in the Land of Israel has a name that is of Arabic origin.

2. Most of the land was empty, desolate.
   Most of the inhabitants were Jews, the rest Christians. The very few Muslims were nomad Bedouins who arrived in the area as construction and agriculture labor reinforcement, seasonal workers. In Gaza for example, lived approximately 550 people, fifty percent Jews and the rest mostly Christians.

3. No Palestinian heritage or Palestinian nation.
The book totally contradicts any post-modern theory claiming a "Palestinian heritage," or Palestinian nation. The book strengthens the connection, relevance, pertinence, kinship of the Land of Israel to the Jews and the absolute lack of belonging to the Arabs, who robbed the Latin name Palestina and took it as their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 17 - 10:59 AM

Keep on spouting your filth Carroll - you are creating quite the impressive record.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 20 May 17 - 10:59 AM

"The cast majority of today's Israelis are settlers who were given land by the British" - Says Jom

Apart from the Jews that had remained in the area and had been happily living there for over 800 years, Jews from the diaspora had been returning to BUY land from 1847 until 1920 when the League of Nations Mandate was created and given to Great Britain to administer. In 1923 77% of the mandated territory was hived off and reserved solely for the Arab population of Palestine. The remaining 23% represents the area we now refer to as Israel, the West Bank and Gaza and in that area anyone of any religion, or any ethnic group could settle. This was a deliberate move on the part of the League of Nations an organisation that Jom seems to have completely forgotten about

Now then Jom care to tell us what land was given by the British to the Jews. As far as I am aware no land was given to anybody - more Jim "made-up-shit".

What was taken over from the Ottomans was territory where land was owned by the Ottoman government and much of the rest belonged to absentee landlords who lived in Cairo and Damascus. In the first period of Jewish settlement (1847 - 1920) the Ottomans made a point of deliberately selling the Jews land that they considered to be useless. In the second period 1920 to 1948 the Jews bought land either from the absentee landlords or from the British Administrators. The largest influx of Jewish settlers arrived AFTER the mandate period

1800 "Palestine":
Jews - 7,000
Christians - 22,000
Muslims - 246,000

1890 "Palestine":
Jews - 43,000
Christians - 57,000
Muslims - 432,000

1914 "Palestine":
Jews - 94,000
Christians - 70,000
Muslims - 525,000

1922 "Palestine":
Jews - 84,000
Christians - 71,000
Muslims - 589,000

1931 "Palestine":
Jews - 175,000
Christians - 89,000
Muslims - 760,000

1947 "Palestine":
Jews - 630,000
Christians - 143,000
Muslims - 1,181,000

So Jom in the 57 years from 1890 to 1947 the Jewish population of "Palestine" went from 43,000 to 630,000 an increase of 587,000 the majority of that increase would not be settlers but children born to Jewish families already there.

In the 70 years since the end of the mandate and the departure of the British the population of Israel has grown from 630,000 to roughly 8,310,000. Now we know where at least 830,000 of those came from - they were Jews forcibly robbed of all their possessions and deported from Arab countries where they had lived for centuries - no "right of return" for them Jom. But as with the previous increase most of the increase in population will be accounted for by the children born to Israelis already settled there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 17 - 10:45 AM

you have the fact that Israeli seizure of land has been internationally recognised as A CRIMINAL ACT

OK, but why single out Israel?
What about the Chinese in Tibet, the Turks in Cyprus, etc.?

you have the maps
Tthey show that Israel only took land while beating off attacks from it, and have taken not a square centimetre since 1973 while giving away vast swathes including half of Egypt and all of Gaza.

Yoou are the ones accusing the Jews of Israeli regime war crimes and atrocities - not me.

No. That is just you and Steve.

I don't think I have ever come across anybody who as ever attempted to denigrate the Jewish People to the extent you have

We have not.

In return to being allowed to settle as refugees from the RIGHT-WING NAZI Holocaust as refugees of course

Another recognised anti-Semitic statement Jim.

The cast majority of today's Israelis are settlers who were given land by the British - they went on to steal more, as Ben Gurion admitted

He did not. As you know that quote was faked.


"In return for not being attacked, Israel would stop defending itself from those attacks and peace and prosperity would prevail."
An oft repeted lie to defend terrorist war crimes


It is a simple fact. Explain what you think wrong about it.

Israel will never stop its persecution and murder until all the Arabs havce been driven out and Israeel is a monotheistic state


No Arabs have been driven out of Israel. Their community prospers and grows and will soon outnumber the Jews.

"Israel withdrew. Gaza started attacking them,"
You've been given the maps - compare them to even the land the Brits gave


The only extra land is the West Bank.

The "people who know better" are the land thieves and killers who you have admitted you are defending

No. Just putting Israel's side of the story. What is wrong with that?

Respond to the articles or put up some that prove them wrong

it was one article and I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 17 - 10:08 AM

Jim,
The most of them were "blow ins" who came to the area as refugees
The cast majority of today's Israelis are settlers

So you deny the right of Jews to exist in Israel.
That is considered to be ant-Semitic Jim. That view would not be tolerated by any political party here or in Ireland, except the extreme Left or Right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 09:38 AM

"They gave Gaza to the Arabs and what did they get in return - thousands of rockets fired at them"
The most of them were "blow ins" who came to the area as refugees
They were not in the position to give people who had occupied the land for many centuries anything
You are doing your mates' trick of ignoring the facts Bobad - you have the maps, you have the statements from Jews and non-jews alike, you have the fact that Israeli seizure of land has been internationally recognised as A CRIMINAL ACT
It's like praising a rapist by saying "at least he gave me my knickers back"
"but to be expected from haters like you."
Fuck you you cowardly antisemitic prick
Yoou are the ones accusing the Jews of Israeli regime war crimes and atrocities - not me.
I don't think I have ever come across anybody who as ever attempted to denigrate the Jewish People to the extent you have
If you are Jewish, you live up perfectly to the accusation of being a "self-hater"
Your preference appears to be for those who instigated the holocaust - a "kapo" mentality
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 17 - 08:37 AM

Israel never has to give anything in return.

They gave Gaza to the Arabs and what did they get in return - thousands of rockets fired at them.

They are also willing to give Judea and Samaria to the Arabs for a homeland but they will not do so until the security of their citizens is assured.

Israel giving over large tracts of the land that was assigned to them for their homeland by the League of Nations in return for peace and security is overly generous by any standard so saying that they never have to give anything in return is a blatant lie but to be expected from haters like you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 08:14 AM

"Ah so Jom it would appear that it is perfectly OK for the Arabs of Palestine to openly declare their intention to grab land and annihilate a race but it is totally reprehensible for the Jews of Palestine to defend themselves. Tell me the rationale behind that thinking.
"
You've had a full answer to that one - your selective dyslexia appears to be becoming a problem to your understanding anything
Go find someone who can explain it to you
"Huh?
In return for what??
Huh ?
In return to being allowed to settle as refugees from the RIGHT-WING NAZI Holocaust as refugees of course
The cast majority of today's Israelis are settlers who were given land by the British - they went on to steal more, as Ben Gurion admitted
"In return for not being attacked, Israel would stop defending itself from those attacks and peace and prosperity would prevail."
An oft repeted lie to defend terrorist war crimes
Israel will never stop its persecution and murder until all the Arabs havce been driven out and Israeel is a monotheistic state
"Israel withdrew. Gaza started attacking them,"
You've been given the maps - compare them to even the land the Brits gave
The "people who know better" are the land thieves and killers who you have admitted you are defending
Respond to the articles or put up some that prove them wrong
Even the Israeli Jews are disturbed at what is happening
-you choose to defend Israeli fascism - you have never shown a shred of interest in what the Jews have to say - fully in line with your owen politics
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 17 - 04:49 AM

Jim and Steve
Israel never has to give anything in return.

Huh?
In return for what??

In return for not being attacked, Israel would stop defending itself from those attacks and peace and prosperity would prevail.

Israel had occupied Gaza.
It was actually quite prosperous then.
Israel withdrew. Gaza started attacking them, so Israel defended itself with a blockade, and incursions when the rocketing gets extreme.

Steve,
You keep saying that but you keep reading my posts. Are you insane?


Huh?? It is not "insane" to read the views of others even when they are easily proved wrong by quoting people who know better.
It is fun actually.


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