BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 01:26 PM

I loved the Dingle peninsula when we were there. Only spent a shot time there but even the journey was magical. I am sure you will be able to name the places I forgot so I will not look them up. We were staying in Finuge, hometown of Sean McCarthy, just outside Listowel. I cannot recal the full journey but I know we stopped briefly in Tralee before crossing a high mountain pass to drop down to Dingle itself. The view across the bay to Blasket (?) was stunning. After a stop in Dingle we headed off and followed a more roundabout route to get back.

They had a Sean McCarthy festival while we were in Finuge and I got to meet his widow! Part of the festivities were in the village hall which was dry but had a pub across the road. The number of people nipping out for 5 or 10 minutes at a time was quite phenomenal :-) There were also a lot of Irish rebel songs and stories, none of which I felt were threatening at all but one evening when I was in a bar in Listowel the local brancj of the Chelsea fan club came in after losing to Man United. When one asked where I was from I said Bolton :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 01:02 PM

"They gave details to the party for them to deal with it."
You've given this excuse before Keith and followed it with your antisemitic suggestion that they did not describe that antisemitism publicly because of their love of the party
It is antisemitic to suggest that Jewish people would put the interests of a political organisation before that of their people
You said you had produced plenty of facts - you lied
Now you are back to your 'Jewish pact of silence' claim - make up your mind - which story are you going to stick with?.
Dig away - you'll get to Australia eventually
You don't know Labour has a serious problem - we only know Labour has treated the accusations seriously and held enquiries - a million miles from what is happening on the opposite bench in Parliament.
Put up your examples and nobody will be able to deny them - if they are substantiated.
You dishonest claimed you had already put them up - stop lying and put them up - that's what you would have to do in a court
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:36 PM

"I detailed the facts that support that belief."
ow you are doin a Keith - if Labour is guilty of the accusations made against it what form does that antisemitism take and why is nobody prepared to describe it?

Corbyn Leader? Fact
Smokescrewen
Corbyn regards Hamas and Hezbollah as friends and is on record as stating such. Fact
No, but even if it was, that does NO mean there is a problem of antisemitism within the Labour Party
Corbyn said he regarded Hezbolah "friends" (around the time Britain was describing Assad as an ally and was still propping up the Qaddafi regime with arms and political support)
He has since withdrawn that description, saying he regretted making itit   
Corbyn supports BDS Fact
Good on him - BDS is supported by all religius denominaqtions and shades of political thought - Jews and no Jews alike - throughout the world
Labour's NEC Commissioned an Inquiry into anti-Semitism in OULC. Fact
Baroness Royall stated that although not "institutionalised" anti-Semitism within the OULC did need to be addressed urgently and immediately. Fact
And it was - it is not an indication that there was a majort problem or in anyway more of a phenomenon in the Laboutr Party - just that what there was needed to be dealt with.
Last March, the Tory Party was accused of having a problem with islamophobia - as a response, they appointed a racist as foreign secretary.
Royall's Inquiry prompted Labour to commission a far wider reaching Inquiry under Shami Chakrabarti. Fact
See above
Labour's NEC fail to implement Baroness Royall's recommendations. Fact
The enquiries that were hald found there to be no significant problem - fact
All smoke and mirrors - totally meaningless.
We are still waiting for the British Muslim's demand for an enquiry to be responded to - that we should all live that long!!!
There will be no proven problem with antisemitism in the Labour Party until it is described and quantified - until such time, it will remain merely unsubstantiated accusations.
Jim Carroll

A Jewish view of Labour antisemitism
AS A JEWISH LABOUR MEMBER, I'M SICK OF ANTI-SEMITISM BEING USED AS A POLITICAL WEAPON AGAINST JEREMY CORBYN
Michael Segalov
For years now I've travelled across the UK to report from far-right, fascist and neo-Nazi rallies. I've seen the real threat that faces Jews in the country, those who wear swastikas as badges of honour. Where was your concern for my community then?
It's become an all too regular occurrence, waking up to headlines reporting that anti-Semitism in the Labour party is now an endemic problem, and that bad feeling against Jewish people in the party is on an upward trajectory.
As a Jewish Labour Party member, they are stories that should have me alarmed. I know from experience just how dangerous anti-Semitism can really be: vast swathes of my ancestors were lost to the murderous hands of the Nazis, and observant Jewish friends of mine have been harassed and attacked on British streets. I've read the slurs, faced the trolls, had neo-Nazis shout abuse in my face.
And yet it's not just anger against bigots that hits as I scan story after story, but frustration towards those trying to use an all too real threat facing my community for their own political gain. Since Corbyn's election as Labour leader, unsupportive MPs, campaigning groups and journalists have been desperate to paint him and the movement who support him as anti-Semitic fanatics, despite knowing it's really not the case.
I could tell you about my own experiences, how I've never experienced or witnessed anti-Semitism inside the party – but that's just what I've seen, non-Jewish defenders of my religion will claim. My experiences, and those of countless other Corbyn-supporting Jewish members who I've spoken to, aren't reflective of what's really going on, apparently.
Just a few months ago, I found myself sat in the Channel 4 News studio, tasked with discussing anti-Semitism under Corbyn. Sat opposite me was John Woodcock MP, desperate to tell me it's the "hard-left" who are "associated [with] Soviet Russia" with anti-Semitic views infiltrating the party who were responsible for stirring up hatred.
Now, we only need look at the most high-profile of cases to see that anti-Semitism is by no means a product of Corbyn's supporters. Naz Shah, MP for Bradford West, was rightly suspended for sharing anti-Semitic posts on Facebook, not a Corbynite but a backer of Yvette Cooper in the last leadership election. Ken Livingstone, similarly sanctioned for his remarks about Hitler, has been a party grandee for decades. An insurgent? I think not.
Woodcock pointed me towards "a rise in anti-Semitic incidents" within the party, without having a single statistic or figure to back it up. It's an answer I hear time and time again, and for those of us – Jewish or otherwise – committed to fighting anti-Semitism, enough is enough.
It's tiring and it's frustrating, but moreover it's frankly dangerous.
For years now I've travelled across the UK to report from far-right, fascist and neo-Nazi rallies, and the counter-demonstrations that take place alongside. I've seen the real threat that faces Jews in the country, those who profess hatred for Jews and our religion, who wear swastikas as badges of honour, who'll salute like a Nazi in front of your face. Where was your concern for my community then?
It's not just the distinct absence of those MPs in Labour who now claim to be at the forefront of the fight against anti-Jewish prejudice that's striking, but the presence of those they now claim to be British Jewry's biggest threat.
It's the left, and Corbyn's supporters, who've put their bodies on the line time and time again to protect us from these racist organisations.
That's why these cries of anti-Semitism make a mockery of a real and present danger. Corbyn's commitment to fighting discrimination and prejudice has been well documented for decades. His supporters are those who've stood alongside him. Accusing these people now of peddling prejudice is nothing but political point-scoring at its worst. It undermines real hatred, and waters down the impact of calling out anti-Semitism when it rears its ugly head.
I'm not saying Labour members haven't experienced anti-Semitism inside the Labour Party, and of course, a progressive movement like Labour should hold itself to higher standards than other organisations. Those few who blindly label all incidents of anti-Semitism as anti-Corbyn slander and restrictions on critiquing Israel need to listen to the voices of victims and let conversations about Judaism and Israel be led by Jewish members: we are here and we know how to speak,
This isn't to say I don't value the concern, but I want to make a few things perfectly clear. Anti-Semitism is not a problem particular to Labour; using the words "Judaism" and "Israel" interchangeably is just as (if not more) common on the right as on the left.
Oppression, discrimination and Jewish identity are complex; the relationship between our religion and the state of Israel is constantly debated; disagreements will happen inside our community. Let us lead these discussions. Don't quickly take sides simply to advance your faction, angle or personal interests.
And if you're truly concerned about fighting racism and anti-Semitism, I look forward to seeing you stand alongside us in meetings and on the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:25 PM

In May I'm taking a party of 10 on a week long tour of the Dingle peninsula. Another beautiful area.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:19 PM

Jim,
You said the Jewish victims of the antisemitism refused to give dtails so how can we possinly have had them

They gave details to the party for them to deal with it.

We know for a fact that Labour has a serious problem because of statements from numerous prominent people including Sadiq Khan, Tom Watson, the current and former leaders of Scottish Labour, and the "entire NEC" which includes Corbyn himself.

Why do yo persist in this Keith

Only because you persist in denying it!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:16 PM

Why do you believe that?

Because nearly half of people in the UK display antisemitic leanings and it is nowhere near that in the Labour party. It is no so much that no other party has had to deal with it. It is that no other party has even looked yet. Do keep up Keith.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:13 PM

"I do not dispute any of your facts and there is no real need to embolden the word. None of them indicate that the Labour party have a bigger issue than anyone else though do they" - DtG

"None of them indicate that the Labour party have a bigger issue than anyone else" - You mean ignoring the FACT that all the facts you accept are ALL specific to the LABOUR PARTY.

Going back to your YouGov Survey article in the Guardian - what was the percentage given of Jews questioned who no longer felt safe in the UK? Jewish Students do not feel safe attending University Labour Club debates and meetings - WHY? Because they are generally open and Labour Youth and Students vote to support BDS as does the Party Leader. Intimidation, racism and misogyny at Constituency Labour Parties. And they all seem to be at ones where dissent is shown to the Leader - Coincidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:10 PM

Dave,
. I do not believe the problem is worse than any in any other group of people.

Why do you believe that?
No other party has had to deal with that issue. No other party has had all those complaints from within. You are in denial Dave.

senior people within the Labour party have admitted that there is a problem and that they are working towards addressing it. Do you think that is a bad thing?

No, but those people also say that Labour is not working towards addressing it. That is a bad thing.

We heard it from Labour Peer Baroness Royale just days ago, and she was appointed by Corbyn to lead an enquiry into it and produce a report which she says has been ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:07 PM

Er, look a little more closely, Dave. Corbyn, in front of a Home Affairs Select Committee, expressed regret for calling Hamas and Hezbollah friends, regretted his choice of words and giving the explanation that he was trying to be inclusive at the time, encouraging reconciliation. Issuing the "fact" Teribus-style is to intend to mislead by omission. If you leave it at the point where Corbyn called them friends and omitted the stuff I've just given you, you may be misled into thinking that that is still his opinion. Which it isn't. I think it's rather important, and far more honest, to give the full story. I know how inconvenient that can be when it flies in the face of a demonising agenda. Maybe I'll get back to the other stuff later. We had the most gorgeous rainbow here half an hour ago. Chicken and chips for tea!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:37 AM

I did ask what you believe, Teribus and, to your credit, you gave a good measured answer. It is still just a belief though and does not measure up to the facts produced in the surveys I have linked.

No, I do not dispute any of your facts and there is no real need to embolden the word. None of them indicate that the Labour party have a bigger issue than anyone else though do they. In fact, they show that the Labour party are already addressing the issue while everyone else seems to have difficulty even acknowledging that antisemitism is a problem in general.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:31 AM

It is a worry and one that we should be ashamed of, bobad. Particularly considering that this survey has rates of antisemitism going down in other countries. There are factors like the number of Muslim residents who, whether we like it or not, are more likely to be antisemitic. The reasons for that are a different argument.

What it does show though is that while the other parties and the country in general do not seem to be acknowledging the issue, the Labour party is already addressing it. So, once again, we come to the point I keep trying to make. The Labour party membership are no more antisemitic than anyone else. Considerably less so if the figures add up. I know it is futile trying to get that point across though so we may as well stick to more pleasant topics like the Yorkshire dales, holidays and botany.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:27 AM

You rarely say anything, but you do ask a lot of questions, I answer them.

Oh and by the way you did ask what I BELIEVED. I detailed the facts that support that belief.

Corbyn Leader? Fact
Corbyn regards Hamas and Hezbollah as friends and is on record as stating such. Fact
Corbyn supports BDS Fact
Labour's NEC Commissioned an Inquiry into anti-Semitism in OULC. Fact
Baroness Royall stated that although not "institutionalised" anti-Semitism within the OULC did need to be addressed urgently and immediately. Fact
Royall's Inquiry prompted Labour to commission a far wider reaching Inquiry under Shami Chakrabarti. Fact
Labour's NEC fail to implement Baroness Royall's recommendations. Fact

Care to dispute any of those Facts Gnome? They've certainly unsettled and worried a number of Labour Party Members particularly Jewish members - another inconvenient Fact for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:25 AM

"You have had lots of facts."
None - and indicative of that fact is that once again you refuse to produce them here
You said the Jewish victims of the antisemitism refused to give dtails so how can we possinly have had them
Suspensions are inevitable when accusations are made - where are your facts
Why do yo persist in this Keith - haven't you humiliated yourself enough with your dishonesty?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:17 AM

Almost half of Britons hold antisemitic view, poll suggests

Doesn't surprise me in the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:12 AM

Here is some more food for thought for you. Almost half of Britons hold antisemitic view, poll suggests .

Amongst lots of interesting facts and figures there are some gems. Including It also found that one in four (25%) Britons believed that Jews chase money more than other British people, a figure which rose to 39% of those participants who identified themselves as Ukip voters.

Now, I am sure people can so the sums but just how many people were suspended over allegations of antisemitism? Was it 50? Tell you what, I'll be kind and double that. No, hang on, Ill multiply by 10 and make it nice round 500. There are, what, 500,000 current members. 500 as a percentage of 500,000 anyone? Is it 39% like UKIP? Or 25% like the general public? Sorry, you will have to help me out here...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:07 AM

The Connemara is exceptionally beautiful and extremely varied. I would recommend it to anyone............. well nearly everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:05 AM

Hmmmmmmmm So Momentum has FLOODED into the Labour party has it.

At the last count Momentum had 20,000 members.

The Labour Party 500,000.

I make that 4%, IF all 20,000 members FLOODED into Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:53 AM

I have already said...

Oh, sorry, forget it was more than 2 posts ago.

I have already said that I believe that Labour does have a problem with antisemitism. I do not believe the problem is worse than any in any other group of people. You have said specifically that the problem is not the Labour party itself and you will not say whether you believe that labour party member are more prone to antisemitism than any other group of people. The only facts that you come out with is that some senior people within the Labour party have admitted that there is a problem and that they are working towards addressing it. Do you think that is a bad thing?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:46 AM

Sorry - they were not dressing. They were already dressed. If they had have been dressing that would have been even stranger.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:46 AM

Dave,
You have made it quite clear that it is your belief and cannot back it up with any facts.

You have had lots of facts.
Numerous suspensions.
The statement last week from Baroness Royale.
Statements from numerous prominent people including Sadiq Khan, Tom Watson, the current and former leaders of Scottish labour, and the "entire NEC" which includes Corbyn himself.

Labour has a serious problem with anti-Semitism, while other parties do not.
That is a fact, and is the full answer to your question.

Do you believe they are all lying Dave?
Do you have any evidence to justify dismissing any of them Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:44 AM

Never done the three peaks all in one go. Did do the round of Kinder some years back from Hayfield - That was a killer as well. 25 miles and up and down Kinder Scout 4 times! Called in the Sportsman pub near the start of the mass trespass when we had finished and had drunk our pints before the barman had made it back with our change! One really odd thing on that walk. We started about 7:30 am and as we made our way up the Snake path there were 2 blokes coming down dressing in 1930s hiking gear. Tweeds, shirts and ties an all. Very odd.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:38 AM

I haven't refused to answer it. I'm still thinking about it. I'll let you know. I'm a bit busy 'til November though.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:37 AM

I made the severe error of doing the Three Peaks in a brand-new pair of boots that I'd bought the day before. We couldn't hang about either as we'd decided to do it on a gloomy day in late October. It took me five pints in a pub in Settle before the pain started to subside. Pendle and surrounds are one of my favourite areas. Only half an hour out of Bury up t'M66 an' all. All my dad's side come from round theer.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:31 AM

You have still not answered the question. Do you believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else? It really is a simple question.

It is not as simple as the questions that Steve and Jim refuse to answer.
How would I know if they are more likely to be anti-Semitic or not?
All I have to go on is the fact that Labour itself believes it has a serious problem, and who am I to argue with them?

Jim,
"No I am not!"
You have accused me of antisemitism - yes you are

I have not Jim.
I just pointed out to you that comparing Israel to the Nazis, which you do, is anti-Semitic by the most widely used definition of it.

Then you are more stupid than you appear to be - Bobad does it all the time, so does bBearded Bruce, MtheGM did it, and numerous others, regularly

Then it will be easy for you to provide an example.

The Israeli Minister of Justice said it publicly and you supported her doing so.....

I did not, and I do not accept that she did.

A reliable witnesses's SUBSTANTIATED EVIDENCE may be accepted or rejected alongside all evidence but never at any time would an unsubstantiated accusation be ever be taken seriously -

These are witnesses who say they have seen and heard anti-Semitism within Labour.
Such a witness statement is hard evidence for a court, and several would be proof beyond reasonable doubt for any intelligent jusry.
Case proven.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:29 AM

Fair enough, Teribus. You have made it quite clear that it is your belief and cannot back it up with any facts. I can live with that and have often said the same. As long as we know it is just a belief rather than a hard fact we can work round it.

I must say I love this though. but there again you very rarely ever say anything and obviously believe very little. If I rarely say anything then why do you argue with me so often? :-)

Now, back from the ridiculous to the sublime. It is my belief that the three peaks area of Yorkshire is one of the finest scenic locations in the country. And that comes from a Lancastrian! There are prettier places and there are grander places but none that I know of have such diversity in such a compact area.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:20 AM

"I agree Raggytash but surely the answer is to open a new thread on the beauties of the English countryside."

Oi, Connemara's in IRELAND!! Racism!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:18 AM

DtG - I believe I did answer your simple question fully, giving my reasons for what I believe - something you never do, but there again you very rarely ever say anything and obviously believe very little.

Now for anyone arguing the opposite in your view wouldn't they have to have the same statistics to argue their point? And remember nobody is, or has ever argued that the Labour Party is anti-Semitic, only that there is a problem with anti-Semitism within the Labour Party that has become increasingly more noticeable since Corbyn took over. And YES for the reasons I have given - "I do believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else?" with such a leader in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:17 AM

"Don't forget Mosley Jim."
I don't David - nor do I forget that Nazi is short for national Socialist.
Totally meaningless if your aim has nothing whatever to do with Socialism.
My family weer Socialists in pre-war Liverpool and they took to the streets to stop Mosely's Blackshirts who weer being defended by the good old British bobbies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:13 AM

"Simple short answer to that on examination of the "evidence" is YES."
Nice to see the "evidence" in inverted commas at long last
The nest step is to find what it is.
Accusations are not "evidence" - they are only allusions.
Evidence proper is a full description of what accusations consist of.
I know plenty of people who find black people intimidating or don't trust Orientals or Asians
For these accusations to become tangible they need to be described
Your suggestion of post Milliband antisemitism doesn't make sense - antisemitism is the domain of the right - it was that particular school of thought that condemned six million Jews to death
This is what Corbyn said about the report accusations - makes far more sense than believing that a philosophy based on anti-bigotry suddenly about faced, coincidently when Corbyn announced his support for BDS

"Although the committee heard evidence that 75% of antisemitic incidents come from far right sources, and the report states there is no reliable evidence to suggest antisemitism is greater in Labour than other parties, much of the report focuses on the Labour party.
As the report rightly acknowledges, politicising antisemitism – or using it as a weapon in controversies between and within political parties – does the struggle against it a disservice."
Corbyn added that he believed the committee was unfair in its criticism of Chakrabarti for being insufficiently independent. "This fails to acknowledge public statements that the offer to appoint Chakrabarti to the House of Lords came after completion of her report, and was based on her extensive legal and campaigning experience," he said.

This is an official by the Jewish Socialist Group, far more authoritative that the right wing on the socialist aims of the party than career politicians like Milliband and his ilk
Jim Carroll

"Statement on "Labour's problem with antisemitism"
From the Jewish Socialists' Group
Antisemitism exists and must be exposed and fought against in the same way as other forms of racism by all who are concerned with combating racism and fascism.
Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same. Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews.
Criticism of Israeli government policy and Israeli state actions against the Palestinians is not antisemitism. Those who conflate criticism of Israeli policy with antisemitism, whether they are supporters or opponents of Israeli policy, are actually helping the antisemites. We reject any attempt, from whichever quarter, to place legitimate criticism of Israeli policy out of bounds.
Accusations of antisemitism are currently being weaponised to attack the Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour party with claims that Labour has a "problem" of antisemitism. This is despite Corbyn's longstanding record of actively opposing fascism and all forms of racism, and being a firm a supporter of the rights of refugees and of human rights globally.
A very small number of such cases seem to be real instances of antisemitism. Others represent genuine criticism of Israeli policy and support for Palestinian rights, but expressed in clumsy and ambiguous language, which may unknowingly cross a line into antisemitism. Further cases are simply forthright expressions of support for Palestinian rights, which condemn Israeli government policy and aspects of Zionist ideology, and have nothing whatsoever to do with antisemitism.
The accusations do not refer to antisemitic actions but usually to comments, often made on social media, long before Jeremy Corbyn won the Labour leadership. Those making the charges now, did not see fit to bring them up at the time, under previous Labour leaders, but are using them now, just before mayoral and local elections, when they believe they can inflict most damage on the Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
The attack is coming from four main sources, who share agendas: to undermine Jeremy Corbyn as leader of Labour; to defend Israeli government policy from attack, however unjust, racist and harmful towards the Palestinian people; and to discredit those who make legitimate criticisms of Israeli policy or Zionism as a political ideology. As anti-racist and anti-fascist Jews who are also campaigning for peace with justice between Israelis and Palestinians, we entirely reject these cynical agendas that are being expressed by:

• The Conservative Party

• Conservative-supporting media in Britain and pro-Zionist Israeli media sources

• Right-wing and pro-Zionist elements claiming to speak on behalf of the Jewish community

• Opponents of Jeremy Corbyn within the Labour party.
The Jewish Socialists' Group recognises that ordinary Jewish people are rightly concerned and fearful about instances of antisemitism. We share their concerns and a have a proud and consistent record of challenging and campaigning against antisemitism. But we will not support those making false accusations for cynical political motives, including the Conservative Party, who are running a racist campaign against Sadiq Khan, and whose leader David Cameron has referred to desperate refugees, as "a swarm" and "a bunch of migrants". The Conservative Party demonstrated their contempt for Lord Dubs, a Jewish refugee from Nazism, when they voted down en masse an amendment a few days ago to allow 3,000 child refugees into Britain while Labour, led by Jeremy Corbyn, gave total support to Lord Dubs and his amendment.
The Jewish Socialists' Group sees the current fearmongering about antisemitism in the Labour Party for what it is – a conscious and concerted effort by right-wing political forces to undermine the growing support among Jews and non-Jews alike for the Labour Party leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, and a measure of the desperation of his opponents.
We stand against antisemitism, against racism and fascism and in support of refugees. We stand for free speech and open debate on Israel, Palestine and Zionism."

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 09:47 AM

Don't forget Mosley Jim. He more than anyone is the inspiration for the current bunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 09:46 AM

Here we go again.😡

PointlesspointlesspointlesspointlesspointlessPOINTLESSpointbloodyless...

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 09:20 AM

Good points Teribus but there is one thing missing. The question was "Do you believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else?" Your points, albeit valid, do not address the question as they do not perform the necessary comparison with others. Do we have any statistics showing what the percentage of antismites is in the Labour party compared to incidence in the rest of the population. Unless we do, how can anyone say that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else? Please note, I am talking about Labour party members in general. Not any subset of that.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 09:05 AM

"Do you believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else? It really is a simple question."

I agree it is really a simple question and one that anyone fully prepared to look honestly and critically at what has been going in the Labour Party since the departure of Ed Miliband could answer.

As to the question itself - Do I believe that Labour Party members are more likely to be anti-Semitic than anyone else? - Simple short answer to that on examination of the "evidence" is YES.

Reasons for arriving at that conclusion as follows (None of these reasons apply to "anyone else"):

1: After Labour failed to win the 2015 General Election Ed Miliband resigned as leader and was succeeded by Jeremy Corbyn. Jeremy Corbyn is on record as describing Hamas and Hezbollah, both proscribed terrorist organisations as being friends.

2: With the election of Jeremy Corbyn a group called "Momentum", which is basically a rework of the "Militant Tendency" of old flooded to "join" the Labour Party to ensure that Corbyn stayed as leader.

3: Anyone who challenged Corbyn's leadership felt the weight of such "dissention" - ask Angela Eagle.

4: Corbyn supports BDS, so does "Momentum" and I would say the bulk of their membership.

5: When the OULC voted on it the Jewish Co-Chairman resigned stating that the reason for his resignation centred around Jewish members not feeling safe at meetings - Does backing BDS really require that those assembled at meetings sing "Rockets over Tel Aviv"?

6: While those here draw fine lines between Jew and Israeli regime and "Palestinian" and their "leaders" the bulk of the membership of "Momentum" do not and if the "Great Leader" says that he supports BDS as a means of bringing down Israel then "his" crew are highly likely to support any "Palestinian" position against any view held by a Jew, whether in Israel or in the UK.

7: One Inquiry into the OULC led by Baroness Royall, led to another investigating racism, misogyny, intimidation. Over 50 members, some quite high profile members too, at least four Constituency Labour Parties suspended. Labour's NEC tried it's best to muzzle Royall's report, the second Inquiry led by Chakrabarti was a classic "whitewash" it's sole purpose the second the full content of Royall's report was known (No thanks to Labour or it's NEC).

8: Baroness Royall made a number of recommendations some of them she clearly stated as requiring urgent and immediate attention to address concerns related to anti-Semitism - Apparently Labour's NEC have decided to ignore those recommendations and Hamas and Hezbollah still remain firm friends of the "Great Leader".

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:45 AM

Sorry Dave - didn't reply - I like to seperate my friends from my foes
I have no objection to rock per-se - whatever turns you on.
It's when it is claimed to be something it is not that cause the problems, especially to a researcher - hence the "pretentious".
I grew up with and grew out of rock music - I have an extremely broad taste in music, but it doesn't include modern pop of any form - it doesn't do anything for me and it is too ephemeral to get a firm grip on - don't get me started abot the "pump up the volume" school of non-thought - musical fascism at its most extreme.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:36 AM

"Regressive right / regressive left = two sides of the same coin."
Meaningless nonsense
You have chosen your friends, I'll stick with mine.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:33 AM

Regressive right / regressive left = two sides of the same coin.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:31 AM

Don't beat about the bush, Jim. Tell us what you really think :-) You must bear in mind of course that we are talking early 70s here. When talking pretentious crap I don't think you can hold a candle to prog. rock. I still love it though :-D And, surely, this is an ideal place for such an argument ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:02 AM

Sorry forgot to reply
"Have you heard the song already then?"
Certainly have - once was enough
Pretentious crap and impossible to follow with the noise they've wrapped around it - nothing to do with folk music as I understand it
But that's an argument for elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:57 AM

"regressive left."
The regressive right sent six million Jews to their deaths
Regressive right Pinochet oversaw the rape, torture and murder of his opponents and his friend, regressive right Thatcher described his policy as her kind of democracy
Regressive right Assad continues to massacre his own people
Regressive right Trump has appointed a raving antisemite onto his team and is consorting with historical antisemite Mm LePen (still no comment from you).
Hitler was of the regressive right, as were his supporters and his stauch ally Mussolini
It's nice to know you are happy to align yorself with this particular branch of politics - please feel free to refer to us as "the regressive left" whenever it takes your fancy
I would be happy to wear your badge with pride
Enjoy your night out at the Biergarten
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:45 AM

More fascistic behaviour from the usual pack of jackals as they try to close down a thread about a subject that makes them uncomfortable - welcome to the brave new world of the regressive left.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:40 AM

I did wonder, Jim, but played it safe just in case. I guess I am too used to dealing with wazzocks who treat everything said as an opportunity to score points ;-)

Have you heard the song already then?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:38 AM

I loved Mr. Fox, and Bob's a great writer. I still occasionally do 'Fiddler's Cross'.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:16 AM

Can't you fellers tell when you'being wound up?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:13 AM

No - That is Simon Pegg. Bob Pegg and his wife Carolanne were the founder members of early 70's Folk/Rock band Mr Fox. Bob writes songs which often display his love of the Yorkshire dales. If you do YouTube the song I was particularly referring to is here

Mr Fox - The Gypsy

Long song but one of my favourites. Not sure if it will be your cup of tea, Jim, but even if it isn't it will be infinitely preferable to going round and round in circles :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:00 AM

Now for something far more serious
Who is Bob Pegg?
Is he the comic actor who starred in the hilarious 'Sean of the Dead' or 'Hot Fuzz', or, 'Paul' or 'World's End'
The name rings a bell
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:40 AM

"No I am not!"
You have accused me of antisemitism - yes you are
"I am not aware of anyone who does that."
Then you are more stupid than you appear to be - Bobad does it all the time, so does bBearded Bruce, MtheGM did it, and numerous others, regularly
The Israeli Minister of Justice said it publicly and you supported her doing so.....
Anybody who makes such a suggestion is antisemitic by definition.
Anybody who accuses Jewish politicians of a pact of silence to cover up the nature of antisemitism to protect their party is an antisemite - you did that
Your own right wing extremist statements include describing all male Muslims of being implanted to have underage sex - straight from the philosophy that sent six million Jews to their deaths.
It doesn't come any more right-wing extreme than that.
"A reliable witness is regarded as strong evidence in any court"
What an unbelievably stupid statement - even for you
A reliable witnesses's SUBSTANTIATED EVIDENCE may be accepted or rejected alongside all evidence but never at any time would an unsubstantiated accusation be ever be taken seriously - never
You have quoted no reliable witnesses - you have repeated unfounded accusations - substantiate them or abandon your fanatical crusade against the Labour Party.
What exactly are you accusing Labour Party members of - kidnapping Christian children to use them for blood sacrifices maybe?
WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS "SERIOUS ANTI SEMITISM" IN THE LABOUR PARTY
I've asked you this several times and you have said you don't know - are you any neared to finding out yet?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:36 AM

Now, back to the more serious business. Sounds a good idea to me Raggy. I remember Rob from years back. He appeared at Swinton Folk Club many a time and, when we were having fun with the local 'Journal' someone submitted a write up that included the phrase Rob's aunties van in the same paragraph as Rob van Sante. They didn't complain :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:33 AM

You have still not answered the question. Do you believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else? It really is a simple question.

As to Not just because it is not in the manifesto, silly

Here is the post I made and you responded to. Your words in bold.

The Labour party cannot be antisemitic. It is not in it's manifesto.

Exactly true. It has a serious problem with some of its members, but the party itself can not be said to be anti-Semitic and no-one has suggested it is.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:31 AM

Not heard about Bob Pegg moving to Whitby but there is a strong rumour that Rob Van Sante has bought a house here.

For many years Whitby has resembled an Old Folkies Care Home though.

I once had the idea of several of us buying a mansion to split into apartments with a communal area. The idea was that you had to be a folkie to buy an apartment, you would agree only to sell to another folkie and that a management fee could be used to provide welfare cover for those nearing their time.

I still think there is some mileage in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:22 AM

Dave,
I have already said, and Steve and Jim have agreed, that antisemitism is a problem in the Labour party but no more so than in any other walk of life.

According to many within the Party, including senior figures and people who have suffered it, Labour has a particular problem which other major parties seem not to have.

You have already said that you do not believe the Labour party itself is antisemitic as that is not in its manifesto. Do you therefore believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else?

Not just because it is not in the manifesto, silly.

As I have already explained, I do believe that Labour has a particular problem with anti-Semitism because so many senior Labour people say it does.