Do you listen to the words?

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 08:47 AM

Peggy Seeger said, "If you find yourself listening to the instrument, the song is not working"

I have to respectfully disagree with Peggy here. There are plenty of songs where the arrangement/instrumentation make them.

Whether it's to your personal taste or not, I think you'd be hard pushed to suggest that, despite its lyrics being completey meaningless, Procul Harum's A Whiter Shade Of Pale doesn't work.

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 08:29 AM

One of the reasons I prefer tune sessions to song sessions is poorly iterated lyrics.

I don't think you meant to say that... in the worst singarounds I've been to the lyrics have been very well iterated.

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 08:26 AM

You're probably right Phil. Each to their own.

I think it also depends on the song. Chris Woods' excellent and very powerful Hollow Point wouldn't be worth anything like as much if you didn't listen to the words. Other songs however have such a strong melody that words are indeed secondary.

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 08:12 AM

"Words can be very important but if they are set to a naff melody or performed with a poor arrangement,"
Similarly, if they have great tunes and sung well, but accompanied badly, they are equally rejected - as should be the case.
Good singing can transform a "naff melody" into an indefensible aspect of the song - some of our greatest ballads have melodies, when separated from the words, are as dull as ditch-water.
Peggy Seeger once gave an excellent lecture on accompaniment in which she said, If you find yourself listening to the instrument, the song is not working".
She also said, "The first thing to decide about accompaniment is whether it is necessary - if it isn't don't bother".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 07:54 AM

Yes, I listen to the words. I know some music appreciators who listen to the overall combination of instrumentation and words, but the words are secondary. I think that's just how their brain works. I like well constructed words and a good tune. I have a slight contrarian streak in that if I'm at a primarily singing session I sometimes wish someone would play a tune, while at an instrumental session, I think here's where a good song would fit in. I try to actually not break up the vibe of a gathering, but the thought's there.

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Johnny J
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 07:12 AM

Words can be very important but if they are set to a naff melody or performed with a poor arrangement, many people just won't listen long long enough to appreciate the content or follow the story.

That's where most so called singer songwriters fall down...with weak melodies. Maybe, they'd be as well off sticking to poetry or prose?

Of course, a lot of songwriters adopt the trick of adding the lyrics to an existing melody or "stealing the tune". Sometimes it works but, quite often, it does an injustice to the melody or original song.

So, please, songwriters. Do try to get both things right. The melody and arrangement is extremely important too. There's no need to be too clever either or a virtuoso musician to compose a nice melody though. "Simple" is often better.

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 06:57 AM

why the input about bloody Pop songs

Because there aren't any physical boundaries between musical genres, Leadfingers. And, thankfully, the discussion of all types of music is welcome here. The home page no longer even makes mention of 'Folk and Blues'.

I'm very much in the music first camp, whatever the genre. When I first became interested in folk, it was the overall sound that appealed to me. Whilst I've become more interested in the words over time, there are still a lot of traditional songs (even some performed unaccompanied) that I love but don't have much idea what the story is.

If I just enjoy the sound, what's wrong with that?

What applies to opera also applies to so called 'World Music'. For example, when I first heard this traditional Malian song I hadn't a clue what it was about. I still found it sublime.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=voz6u3efBaA

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 06:14 AM

One of the reasons I prefer tune sessions to song sessions is poorly iterated lyrics. I'm left wondering if it is my ears or their diction. The long notes sung are all vowels. Consonants before and after these vowels are crucial in defining content. It should be singer's 101 but it seems not to be. Or am I going deaf? Let's play a tune.

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 06:07 AM

A question such as this needs to be qualified - what kind of song are you discussing.
English language folk song is word based and largely narrative so the words are essential - ideally, they take precedence over the accompaniment but, unfortunately, more often than not nowadays, the music acts as a distraction.
Popular song (pop music) used to be word based, but that is no longer the case - most of the time it is impossible to follow the words of modern pop-songs anyway.
Opera is interesting in that it is a balance between words and music and can be appreciated either way - as narrative (if you are conversant with the language or the plot) or simply as beautiful music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 06:06 AM

I THOUGHT this was supposed to be a Folk and Blues site , so why the input about bloody Pop songs ??

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Kampervan
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 05:58 AM

Words, words, words. Without being able to understand the words I get less than half the experience.

I know what people mean about opera, there are some arias where the music is just so wonderful that it transports you. But, the majority of the music in most operas is not like that and, without understanding the words, I find it pretty boring.

60's 70's pop music I understood and could sing along with. Still remember most of the owrds too.

Folk music - if it's a song then listening to and understanding the words are essential, otherwise it's an instrumental! IMHO of course.

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: banjoman
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 05:43 AM

I find that a lot of modern music of all genres drowns out most of the words anyway.
Words are important, but often the music sets the tone or scene for them. Otherwise the words often seem meaningless.
My favourite (Tom Paxton) shows how to make words work and every word is clear and needs little effort to hear
I agree with the comments about opera, but its necessary to actually know the story beforehand, the words then make some sense.

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: JHW
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 05:41 AM

Agree very much with Raymond and others. There certainly are PERFORMERS out there who think the performance matters more than the song.
SINGERS know better. I'll admit it's usually the melody that grabs me first but unless you listen to the song the singer is wasting his/her time so yes I do my best to listen as I do my best to put the words over when it's my turn to sing.
Chris Coe (I'm told) said "You should always stand behind the song, never in front"

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 05:33 AM

I try to but so many young singers don't enunciate clearly, just mumble.
(Yes I know I'm half deaf, but I can hear others clearly)
RtS

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: BobKnight
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 05:08 AM

Well, seems for some folk I've been wasting my time trying to right lyrics with meaning - when a few grunts and mewls would do the same.
Nah! It's all about the lyrics, telling a story, and well wrapped up in a nice tune. If you don't want to listen to the words, that's fine, because I'll be writing songs for those who DO listen to the words - I know I do. You'll never find a meaningless, la la la la la line in any of my songs.

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 05:00 AM

The words should be the most important component.


..... if you can't hear the words how can the story fit together?


That may be true only in the narrow world of folk music.

The popularity of opera, sung in Italian, German or whatever, amongst anglophones suggests that only the most basic grasp of the story-line is required for enjoyment. The words are important. but for their musicality rather than their meaning. My father-in-law always preferred to listen to opera in the original language as he reckoned that translations put the "ee"s, the "oo"s and the "ah"s in the wrong places as the music went high or low. For him, this outweighed the need to follow the plot within the song itself.

In other genres, words are less important. The lack of a good story line never held back Little Richard.

DC

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: mg
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:31 AM

i don't listen well to the words. just the way my brain works, even when i tell myself i have to listen to the words my brain just goes away from them ...i generally don't know what the words are..most of them..unless i read them...i know phrases and lines perhaps but i rarely know the story...i am more of a tune person...but i get the jist of it usually i hope..thisis about a shipwreck/flowers in may/jilted lover etc.

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:28 AM

This is the main problem in music ~ I learn the words and they are the most important aspect in folk song as they tell the STORY, if you can't hear the words how can the story fit together?

Folk artists are moving gradually into musical arrangements based on the folk song tune and discarding the folk story ~ this is just awful ~ the reason is more to do with big stage production and giving "voice" to the instrumentalists ~ a self enhancement with little thought for the audience who are being deprived in many cases of the sentiments and story line and understanding of the song purpose

We must be careful I think, and the gradual move towards popular music is an inevitable conclusion ~ folk song is folk song and should be audible and understandable without much amplification and accompaniment (if any)

Ray

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:12 AM

I never used to listen to song words, it was always the tune. All those sixtys and seventys hits that know well but can't recognise any of the words.

It always amazed me in those musical quiz/panel shows where they had to identify hits from the words; I never got any of them.

Robin

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:59 AM

The words should be the most important component.

But many recordings do not give the impression that the artist(s) shares that opinion.

Subject: RE: Do you listen to the words?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:47 AM

If it's a song , surely the words are the most important component ?

Subject: Do you listen to the words?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:35 AM

Is it my age or do others find themselves not listening to the words of many artists?