BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 06:43 PM

the basic cultural/psychological reasons for his popular appeal

The miserable state of underfunded U.S. education has a great deal to do with it. Remember Trump "love[es] the poorly educated" - and with good reason.

But if you think it's bad NOW, wait 'til DeVos gets thru with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 07:00 PM

"Underfunded" by itself has little to do with underlying reasons. Attitudes about funding levels in competition with military and other **important** goals need a kick in the rear. And the overwhelming insistence on 'states rights' in determining educational priorities IS a cultural/psychological factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 08:02 PM

Congratulations Bill. I felt bad a thread started by you was too easily dismissed. It was sort of like Elizabeth Warren being told to sit down.

Half a dozen times I've put out some fires and left some embedded suggestions which has changed behavior significantly.

As a vulgar populism sweeps the country I have witnessed the audacity of an established old bigotry is causing fist fights in strip Mall Parking lots and belligerent pick up truck drivers.

As Colbert and John Stewart asked for a return to sanity we should preserve the golden strings of musicians opinions to gather, soothe and educate instead of adding hate. Folk music may be the panacea of these times.

As a classical musician I know the unique brother and sisterhood among musicians in concert together and separately. It is a powerful source that can change emotions like no other expression. Music surpasses partisanship. It doesn't always work but it is beautiful when Bernstein accomplished this in both Israel and Berlin.

Admin gradually set up verbal metal detectors until we were all reminded of a kind of security that became the focus and a game to be waged and challenged. Old habits gradually fade.

Bill pass along my sentiments if they are concordant in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 08:10 PM

"Underfunded" by itself has little to do with underlying reasons

I don't recall blaming underfuding "by itself" ;>)

The end product of uneducated/undereducated individuals who cannot think critically or logically & thus can't tell fantasy from reality is also a cultural factor of some moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 08:29 PM

Well I imagine it could be the same in the US as it is here (going from results of polls). There is a total lack of political education. If you ever bring up the topic you're in danger of being suspected of being a revolutionary commie. Keeping people ignorant is vital to the right. Ignorance leave you vulnerable to specious arguments, prejudice spouted with authority from on high and downright lies. You won't question those things unless you have at least some knowledge of politics and the wherewithal to ask questions sceptically. You talk about democratic deficits, disenfranchisement and the like. The biggest defect of democracy by a country mile is the ignorance of those who are entitled to vote. Politics is by far the most important thing that affects people's lives. Yet we really don't want the inconvenience of people actually understanding it.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 12:55 AM

you know what they used to say. its the economy - stupid!

in a way i guess it is.

forget the weirdness of this man's behaviour, the xenophobia a distressing side issue, but not really the central point.

the point of his appeal is that he has an explanation and a proposed solution for America haemoraging manufacturing jobs to countries to the east and south.

he is proposing import taxes on foreign goods, consequences for firms who relocate outside the USA. he saying if you want a stake in America's wealth , it costs. there are responsibilities

Can it work? Can it stop or even slow down the apparently inevitable?

the point is he's recognised a major problem. and he's having a bash at it. and that recommends him to an awful lot of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 02:22 AM

I don't think there is the remotest chance Trump's plan will work. However, let's have a think about a way it could (however unlikely).

Import taxes have been anathema for years - every trade deal and economist (maybe) has argued against them. And the reason is pretty basic. For most products the size of the international market is many times the size of the national market, so the ease of selling internationally is a key factor in how big your company can become.

But the costs of this are that smaller local competitors are squeezed out or taken over and, in the fight for competitiveness, the jobs move to the lowest cost, which is typically abroad.

So imagine we now have steep tax barriers. The big firms are hit, and hit hard. Job losses are inevitable. But along with this, the scope for the smaller business focused on local markets could pick up. Over a period of a few years, many of the lost jobs could be picked up elsewhere. Then, why concentrate on goods we can sell internationally? If your product line is, for example, locally raised/grown food, the international market is not too interesting to you. Equally, if the tariffs on imported food are high, it stimulates your local market.

And there is also a possible environmental benefit - losing all those air miles transporting goods everywhere. And then finally there is all that money raised from the tariffs. Trump would put those in lowering taxation; other would prefer to invest it in education and other social goods.

Can it work? As I said, not a chance in my opinion. But it is self evidently crazy? No, it is not. It is just at odds with everything we have done for decades. That does not mean it is crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 04:46 AM

Trump admits he only sleeps for four hours.

Thatcher famously only got half normal sleep. She ended with Alzheimer's. It is not automatically a correlation, given the vagaries of "current medical understanding on the subject", but:

There is a blood brain barrier, and veins in the brain differ by being concentric tubes. Inner caries blood, the outer is constricted during waking hours, but during sleep it expands and carries fluid to flush out all the by-products of the burning of fat/sugars etc with oxygen. Principle of that detritus are prions. Now you may make the connection.

Not a given, but a gamble. Reagan? Wilson?

you heard it here- One more reason to get a good night's sleep TED talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 05:43 AM

Linking dementia to lack of sleep is a conclusion way too far from what little evidence there is.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 07:59 AM

That's not the point - whether it works or not.

The point is that he's opened up a dialogue on an issue none of the others won't face. And they won't face it, because by and large they're not from a class that is affected - yet.

Of course - neither is Trump from that class. His comittment to succeeding is hugely suspect of course.

But that's why he's won an election.

Badmouthing him about being what we can all see is a strange and uncultured man, is not germane to to anything.

People will be looking for him to deliver, and my feeling is that he won't have to deliver very much, because no one else has started to engage with the plight of workers displaced by the policies of multi nationals.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 08:13 AM

I don't think economic disenfranchisement is as central an issue as it's made out to be. Yes, there are some people who've gotten raw deals from globalization, and I understand their anger. But I think there are a lot more Trump supporters who believe they've gotten raw deals because they've been told they have. They accept the premise while ignoring the fact that they're actually doing quite well.

There's a housing development near where I live that I drive through occasionally. House prices start at $450,000, every house has a two-car garage with two almost new cars in it, and almost all of their professionally maintained lawns had Trump-Pence campaign signs on them during election season. The only economic hardship most of those folks will face this year is having to decide whether to buy a new boat or a new motor home because they can't afford to do both.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 09:29 AM

Interesting piece of insight from The Irish Times's American correspondent this morning
Jim Carroll

TRUMP HAS ALREADY MADE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN BY INSPIRING HIS OPPOSITION
Listen up, haters. The brief reign of Donald the First has been completely head-spinningly nuts so far. But let's stay calm and look for the silver lining, or in this case, the garishly gold lining. Trump has indeed already made some of America Great Again. Just not the aspects he intended. He has breathed new zest into a wide range of things: feminism, liberalism, student activism, newspapers, cable news, protesters, bartenders, shrinks, Twitter, the American Civil Liberties Union, Saturday Night Live, town halls, George Orwell, Margaret Atwood, Hannah Arendt, TV presenter Stephen Colbert, and the separation of powers among them.
As Trump blusters about repealing Obamacare, many Americans have come to appreciate the benefits of the law more. Lena Dunham credited the "soul-crushing pain and devastation and hopelessness" of Trump with helping her get a svelte new figure. Trump may even have pierced the millennial malaise, as we see more millennials showing interest in running for office.
Every time our daft new president tweets about the "failing" New York Times, our digital subscriptions and stock price jump, driven by readers eager for help negotiating the disorienting Trumpeana Oceana Upside Down dimension rife with gaslighting, trolling, leaking, lying and conflicts.
Similarly, whenever Trump rants about Alec Baldwin's portrayal of him and tweets that Saturday Night Live is "not funny," "always a complete hit job" and "really bad television!," the show's ratings go up. They are now at a 20-year high. Trump was roundly mocked for turning his Supreme Court announcement into an episode of The Bache-lor, but it must be said that the president has more talent for devising cliffhangers than anyone since Charles Dickens.

Unbelievably schtocky
Administration officials told The Times that the White House even got Judge Thomas Hardiman, the runner-up to Neil Gorsuch, to play along and help make the final rose ceremony suspenseful by feinting a drive toward Washington. It was unbelievably schlocky, and yet the end result was a national civics lesson, with a whopping 33 mil¬lion-plus people tuning in.
Ordinarily staid senate hearings for cabinet choices are now destination TV. As Trump puts forth people who want to plant Acme dynamite in the agencies they will head and as Republicans at the federal and state levels push their conservative agenda, Americans have a refreshed vigour for debating what's at stake for the environment, education, civil rights and health insurance - and a new taste for passionate, cacophonous town halls.
Trump has made facts great again. By distorting reality so relentlessly, he has put every¬one on alert for alternative facts. "With great assurity," as Trump likes to say, the president has also made White House press briefings relevant again by raising the stakes. The 'Time's Michael Grynbaum calls Sean Spicer's live briefings "daytime television's new big hit" - outdrawing soap operas such as General Hospital and The Bold and the Beautiful.
As he alarms and exhausts, the Short-Fingered Vulgarian deserves this credit at least: We're all on our toes now. The pink pussyhats are at the barricades, on the watch for any curtailment of women's rights and any mansplaining by older white Southern men.

Misery of staffers
The president loves his pat-and-yank handshakes and hugs and blown kisses with m ale VIPs. "I grabbed him and hugged him because that's the way we feel," he said of greeting Japan's prime minister. But The Times's Maggie Haberman reports that the White House radiates with the misery of staffers.
The riled-up art scene has taken to trolling the Troller in Chief. The Museum of Modern Art dropped its customary detachment on politics to protest Trump's ban on refugees from seven predomi¬nantly Muslim countries by replacing artwork on display by Cézanne, Picasso and Matisse with contemporary works from Iran, Iraq and Sudan.
The Public Theater an¬nounced it would open Shake¬speare in the Park in May with Julius Caesar, a play about a populist seeking absolute power. The play, the theatre said, has "never felt more contemporary".
Still, the main way that Trump is proving that America is great is that the affronted and angered are rising up to take him on. Institutions designed to check a president's power and expose his scandals, from the courts to the comics to the press - are all at Defcon 5 a state of military alertness - except for the Republican Congress, which seems to be deaf.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 10:36 AM

Jim using words like schlock I'd swear you were American. Fun post or its accuracy.

Mr. Red you may have an insight. Proving it takes time and research.
On a TV call in show I suggested that Reagan had Alzheimer's a full five years before we were told. The TV panel of psychiatrist and doctors had a good laugh and ran from any real response.

Big Al, TODAY Trump meets with the Canada PM Trudeau. T wants to get rid of NAFTA.
We have an export value added tax. Some car parts go back and forth 7 times and would be made too expensive to survive a value added tax each time it crosses the border with Canada. If we asked Trmp about this I am sure he is unaware of the coat benefits of his crazy repeal plans. H does not even know about the benefits o a weak dollar vs a strong dollar. Your plan can work with enough codicils and changes to the tax code but then the Trump plan is no better than what we have as far s simplicity goes.

I can ask a senior Federal Economist about this complex issue for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 10:54 AM

I don't really think a federal tax officer/expert will add to the gaiety of nations. I think Trump has correctly recognised that they are part of the problem. Having a general view of taxation, finance, etc doesn't seem to work. most working musicians can tell you that. we haven't all got 2.3 kids, and some businesses don't fit into the net yield nonsense. We need more flexibility in financial institutions and taxation.

What Trump has promised to do is cut a swathe through the laws of the land and screw the bastards who are screwing America.

I'm not sure he can do this. His attempt with the anti immigration law shows that the lawmakers aren't just going to fold in terror and respect in front of the President. But then again - i didn't think he could win an election.

the term Maverick could have been invented for guys like Trump. like you say watch and be afraid...he doesn't seem to get on with anybody very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 11:29 AM

But I think there are a lot more Trump supporters who believe they've gotten raw deals because they've been told they have

Agreed, BW- but I think you have the percentages of the two groups reversed.

Part of the "Make Amerika Great" campaign's appeal was a longing for a return to ther past - a MYTHICAL past that never existed. Like the folks waiting for the railroad to come back thru town or the closed mines to re-open. The railroad ain't coming back, folks- and that economic hole you're in? You've just put into office a cadre of the very people that dug that hole for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 01:30 PM

"Jim using words like schlock"
That's a direct quote from the Irish Times, but I understood it is a Yiddish word - I heard it used by my Jewish friends a lot in Manchester.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 03:17 PM

the term Maverick could have been invented for guys like Trump. like you say watch and be afraid...he doesn't seem to get on with anybody very much.

That's not the American understanding of the term maverick. If someone is "a maverick" they're independent, it's meant to praise their ability to function apart from the herd. It doesn't mean scary or can't get along with everyone else.

I think the term you're searching for might be "grouch" or "outlyer."

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 03:57 PM

"Maverick" is perfect.

The important thing is that the corrupt political system and its tame rat the news and entertainment media is being exposed. They are all crawling out from under their stones spitting bile......THEY are afraid....very afraid. The myth is crumbling.

Regarding Barthes, I agree with DMcG he has exposed one small area of a huge movement......in the main the public are starting to reject neo- liberalism and social "liberalism", they don't believe it anymore, they want a life for their children and themselves.
They have finally made the connection between left, right, and the media.......the biggest con in history.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 04:23 PM

in the main the public are starting to reject neo- liberalism and social "liberalism", they don't believe it anymore

And instead are embracing, with Trump and the Trumpists, corporatism, cronyism, oligarccy, "trickle-down" economics, environmental pollution union-busting, racism, destruction of Medicare & Social Secutity & public education, etc. etc. AS THE WAY FORWARD?

If you're right, Ake, "the public" are even more ignorant and stupid than I've given them credit for, and are ba perfect example of cognitive dissonance.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 05:24 PM

you can't be serious Ake.

self interest is the dynamo that drives Trump. i don't think great insights into the human condition are his stock in trade. that's more Billy Graham and the Pope.

however the massive indifference to the fate of displaced workers was a massive marketing opportunity that he was smart enough to recognise.

the main party candidates are all in hock to the big companies for their campaigns.

then comes this guy who is very media savvy. he doesn't need an advertising agency - he's a gift to whichever party backs him. i bet he did it for relatively speaking nothing. and because he's not in hock he can say the unsayable.

god alone knows what he will achieve for the people who have given him their trust, but they'd better count the cutlery before he splits - going on his past record.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 05:29 PM

god alone knows what he will achieve for the people who have given him their trust

Doesn't take a deity - excluding the 1%, what he will achieve for for the people who have given him their trust is ZIP.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 05:37 PM

I won't dwell on it unless we have to, Ake, but I think it is clear enough that while I think Bartnes does address one of many factors behind the election, I don't go along with the comment about IIiberal values. I would also make a very much stronger distinction between neoliberalism, which is essentially about deregulation of business and trade deals, and social liberalism, which is about how we treat each other. These are quite different, and blurring the distinction is at best unhelpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 05:44 PM

maverick - Meriam Webster no word of respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 07:28 PM

Big Al, Come to think about it, We are on our second Billie Graham, we have two Popes in the Vatican and for President we have Bannon and Trump on top of the emergency shadow government.

We seem to have plenty of redundancy when it come to the transfer of corruption and fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 07:35 PM

There are too many organizations and teams calling themselves "Mavericks" for the negative reading you're implying, Mr. Red. And Trump ain't one of 'em. (Partly because he's feuding with Mark Cuban who owns the Dallas Mavericks.) To paraphrase what Lloyd Bentson told Dan Quayle in their VP debate, I know Mavericks, and you're no Maverick.

He was a Roy Cohn toady and that alone should have alarmed the majority of the population into never considering his candidacy.

Angels In America was written to reflect the time when the AIDS crisis was full-blown, in the Reagan era. I'm willing to bet if we look through that text and pass it over today's events we'll find lots of plot elements and epigramatic lines that address the political turmoil of today. Trump isn't a closeted gay man, he's a predator who is out in the open and getting away with it. Cohn taught him well.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 08:35 PM

akenaton, you said in part: ..."the corrupt political system and its tame rat the news and entertainment media is being exposed."

In your first sentence you have made 2 assumptions/claims. It is NOT obvious to everyone that the political system 'as a whole' is corrupt, nor that they control and/or significantly influence the media. There are examples of corruption and unwarranted influence, but sweeping generalizations are no more useful in analyzing the issues than they are when politicians use them to cajole the public.

Jim Carroll, DMcG, Big Al, Steve Shaw and Donuel have all tried to get at the basic point, and I agree with much they have said and if I had more time, would like to enlarge, discuss and critique some of their points. I simply don't sit here 12 hours a day monitoring the posts.
   I do recognize when someone takes a few words from someone's comment and instantly does a 90 degree turn in order to REstate their own pet themes and beliefs. It's like watching KellyAnne Conway... or many other political figures... respond to a question by changing the subject in order to regurgitate their side's talking points.

   I renew my requests to help clarify the issues... and "They are all crawling out from under their stones spitting bile.. is not exactly helpful...

'nuff said...

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 08:38 PM

"Maverick" actually has too many positive connotations for it to be even remotely applicable to Trump. Brett and Bart Maverick, who I watched avidly when a sprog, were ultimately men of good character despite cheating at cards. Maverick cattle were always depicted as wild, free spirits in the westerns. Wrong word. He's the enemy within. If he's a maverick bovine, he's one that's carrying tuberculosis, beef tapeworm and foot and mouth disease. Or, in his case, foot in mouth disease. And he's farting out airship loads of damaging methane to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 09:11 PM

ah yes...fond memory...as my old Daddy used to say...

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 09:30 PM

I'll concede that Trump is part Maverick, the part that goes in the barn door last.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 10:35 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Executive orders?
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 01:32 PM

Without argument much more of this Russian oily love story with Trump was known as early as July by US intelligence. It was classified. It is now partly declassified. This case will deliberately open slower than a flower for all to see.

We are dependent on both our side and Russian sides of this deal to open it up for us to judge if this is treason or just a cash deal.

What this is about is the Russian state owned oil corporation who suddenly says they gave away one fifth of state owned oil profits {perhaps sold) to an unknown entity.

maraca? Mexico? Mongolia? or maybe a multi billionaire.

We know about Trump's representative named Price and how all this coincides in space and time. Price became a hot potato and separated from the Trump campaign.

We now know who and how much this deal to remove sanctions is about.

There are CIA factions who consider themselves unbound by the Constitution and the business of America is business and wants total classification. There are those that want the Russian deal to become transparent.

Trump wants intelligence to shut up.
He wants media to shut up.
He accuses them of traitorous betrayal.


To put a fine point on this:

The deal now has proof of existence but there is no proof as to Trump's personal cut of the 19% of all Russian oil profits.
Yet. I suspect it will be made public in time.

.........................

Now it is about General Flynn's part in this deal, but the CIA recorded Flynn up to his ass in the art of Trump's deal. Trump still thinks the presidency needs his deal making talent. Sorry Donald, good deals might be good for you but America is about a new deal beyond profit, beyond fear, beyond our borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 10:50 PM

The purchase of Alaska was no secret.
The Louisiana purchase was no secret.

Why is the Russian oil deal a secret?
Tillerman knows.

How will we judge Trump for this?
We shall see DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 03:43 AM

"you can't be serious Ake."
'Fraid not Al
SOMEONE HAS TO KEEP THE FLAG FLYING
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 04:04 AM

Bill, how can you say in all seriousness that the political system is not massively corrupt when it has been exposed as such during the run-up to the election. Firstly the Democratic Party working against Mr Sanders to enable Mrs Clinton, an establishment icon to win.
Half the Republican establishment briefing against their own Presidential candidate to undermine him in every way they could.
I believe that many in the Republican hierarchy would have actually preferred to see a Clinton Presidency.

These matters would never have come to light without the "whistleblowers" who are now demonised by the Democrats as Anti American, :0).

We have exactly the same situation in the UK where the Established Parties are all dedicated to stop CHANGE in its tracks. Any real change like our exit from the EU are because of the populist revolution appearing all over Western Europe and the US.

It appears to me that the "left" are living a couple of decades behind the action. As I have said before, to effect change we need unity of purpose not division. Donal John has been democratically elected under the rules and must be given a chance to put his policies into practice........Detante with Russia, Jobs for the American people, an affordable healthcare service, an end to illegal immigration, don't seem like the works of the devil to me?

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 04:13 AM

Why is this idiot with his Nazi insignia allowed to post on this forum. Does anyone find this sort of thing funny?....or is it simply desperation.....it does seem strange when members are trying to have a civilised discussion and having their posts removed.

What the hell has Nazi Germany got to do with this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Stu
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 04:27 AM

" Any real change like our exit from the EU"

Nobody's attempting to stop that, it's that May et al don't have carte balance to act on all our behalf via the scrutiny and debate of our elected representatives and those responsible for overseeing the rule of law. This is precisely the "taking back control" you wanted, and now you whine about it.

There are choices besides a disastrous hard Brexit; were you in business you'd understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 04:38 AM

"Why is this idiot with his Nazi insignia allowed to post on this forum."
For the same reason someone is allowed to present statements from an extreme racist like Ann Coulter, a misogynist, hate-mongering journalist who advocates poisoning politicians and locking liberals up in Guantanamo.
"What the hell has Nazi Germany got to do with this thread?"
It has everything to do with your politics and your adoration for Fuehrer Trump
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 04:41 AM

Ake
If you object to strong debate, desist from using language like "They are all crawling out from under their stones spitting bile"
Jim Crroll

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 05:24 AM

I think I must have missed something. That'll teach me to have the audacity to go to bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 07:38 AM

The spitting bile remark was aimed at the media, not the Mudcat membership. Although there have been about half a dozen threads dedicated to the insult and ridicule of President Donal-John.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 07:54 AM

"The spitting bile remark was aimed at the media, not the Mudcat membership."
You aim the same level of bile at liberals and lefties.
Amazing for a "socialist"
You decide not t comment on a neo-fascist journalist who advocates poisoning opponents of Trump
Double standards again.
The flags remain until someone removes them - they stand for what needs to be said
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 08:53 AM

I celebrate whistle blowers.

Russia is said to use Snowden as a good will bargaining chip soon with Trump so Snowden may be extradited and imprisoned.:^(

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 10:28 AM

Bernie Sanders is an Independent who serves under the flag Democratic Socialist or Progressive. The so-called "Socialist" participating in this thread is actually a Trump apologist, a GOP/Tea Party supporter. Who for some reason can't admit to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 10:54 AM

I tell you what. you gotta admire the foresight of those guys who refloated the Trump name after all his projects turned to shit.

They've got the keys to Fort Knox now.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 11:01 AM

"Although there have been about half a dozen threads dedicated to the insult and ridicule of President Donal-John."
Nowhere near enough and why on earth should we not be able to acknowledge his character - or is that form of censorship what we can look forward to in your Brave New World
Jim Carroll?

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 11:35 AM

Ake... and Jim Carroll... this is why the mods have deleted posts and closed threads. You cannot keep the personal insults and irrelevant bomb-tossing out of it!
See PMs...

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 12:16 PM

Hi Bill Thanks for the PM, I have replied.

Hope you also sent one to Vasha.......who seems to disbelieve my socialist credentials.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Stu
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 12:35 PM

"who seems to disbelieve my socialist credentials"

You're not a socialist Ake, although I don't doubt you were one. A socialist would NEVER support ultra free-marketeers like Farage, the UKIPs and Trump; it runs counter to everything they believe in.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 01:27 PM

Are you a mod now, Bill? Life can get confusing!

To her eternal credit, one moderator takes on akenaton publicly on the forum. Another one is privately willing to tolerate him as merely someone he disagrees with. I think it's more serious than that. A lot of the most frequent below-the-line contributors (both usual suspects and not) find the content of many of his posts to be deliberately provocative, wrong-headed and bigoted. I don't take offence at anything on this forum, but I do not want my views to be placed as somehow equal but opposite to his. His views on Trump, socialism, immigrants, women and gay people are utterly obnoxious to me and they are not in any regard equal and opposite to mine, Dave's, Jim's or anybody else's - and let's keep that separate from forum behaviour, an entirely different potential source of complaint against a number of us. Different but not separate: if this person is allowed to continue to sully the forum in his particular way, then the weaknesses inherent in human nature will inevitably tempt others to have it back at him and the place will be dragged down. I'll finish this little rant with my usual closing remark. This isn't my gig. So I'm just sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 02:06 PM

Farage is just a bedfellow.

like Dennis Skinner, i'm a socialist and i want out of the eU.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 02:18 PM

?? Steve...I don't think I have said anything to suggest *I* was a mod. I personally think that it would be difficult to discuss the issues at the same time as being a moderator/censor on the topic.

I am reminded of a line I heard many years ago when someone was asked if they 'did something'.. "No I didn't... and if I had, I'd deny it."

I used it a couple of times myself long ago when I was questioned about 'having an affair' with some woman... it simply wasn't relevant for THAT person to know one way or the other.

I do know that above the line, one person has limited rights to edit the "In Memorium" thread... there was one VERY brief experiment a long time ago when Max tried allowing folks to edit their own posts, but I think it proved too difficult when editing changed the flow of the discussion as people altered what they had written. (It was supposed to be just a way to change bad spelling and flawed HTML... but...)

----------------------------
I have gotten a couple of PM replies from Ake, who says HE will try to follow my suggestions, but I fear the topic is dying under the weight of "Traditional Mudcat Thread Creep"

I am trying to follow news & ideas in the FaceBook thing, where very few remarks are deleted. At least there posts usually slide out of sight after a while and can be hard to find again due to the overwhelming volume. I prefer the Mudcat format, as it 'can' allow more serious discussions...over years, even.... but Google doesn't index FB, and a search doesn't lead new people to a topic. Sadly, FB has lured a huge # of folks into it's ad-ridden, format with tons of shallow crap mixed with real treasures.

"It was all so different before everything changed."