BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 03:19 AM

Bill, the name is not meant as an insult, I am sure it reflects the background of Mr Trump's mother Maryanne MacLeod.
As I explain before it is a Lewis Tradition to use linked Christian names.
I agreed with you to embark on a civil discussion, as it is your thread would you please put an end to the personal remarks from others here.....as a liberal and a democrat, I'm sure you will see that as fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 08:58 PM

Jaysus, my watery eyes failed me at the proofreading stage. You can probably work it out, but here's what it should have read:

"After all, there is the fuel of economic turmoil just round the corner. I demur totally from the received wisdom that all these people..."

And I agree about akenaton, who I don't hesitate to name, and I'd counsel against trying to play the role of his wise uncle. That merely gives him precisely the succour he needs to carry on, fortified. Keep him at disdainful arm's length. He's poison.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 08:47 PM

Voting may be a complex matter but, because of voter ignorance, a very simple factor comes into play, namely ruthless manipulation. Sixty-three million people voting for a misogynistic, bigoted bully were not voting rationally with a full knowledge and understanding of the complexity of the issues and challenges facing the country and the wider world. Seventeen million people who were swayed by the lies of little Englanders were not voting rationally to get the UK out of the EU. The Dutch are going to give a far-right candidate the highest number of votes and the French are in danger of electing a fascist. If the EU collapses, which it may well, Europe, freed of its EU obligations to be democratic, abide by the rule of law and observe human rights, may start to face the same kinds of political turmoil that led us into two world wars. After all, there is the fuel economic turmoil just round the corner I demur totally from the received wisdom that all these people voting for dangerous solutions are doing it because they feel "disenfranchised." That is made-up shit, to coin a cliché, innocent of evidence bar that derived from vox pops instigated by tendentious-minded men-with-mics. Jesus, even in the finest democracies a very large minority are "disenfranchised" at every election. The kind of democracy we brag about in our western civilised countries is a sham that relies on the electorate being ignorant of what is really at stake and being far too easily satisfied that, once every few years, they "get to have a say." Ignorant people are very easy to manipulate. Western democracy dictates that we make people happy because they think they can choose, then carry on acting like a near-dictatorship. Thank God for the courts, but even they are now threatened and vilified on both sides of the Atlantic. Be very afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 08:39 PM

Term limits are the idea of those who think politicians get too fat in office. I happen to think that they defeat the benefits of having experienced politicians who know how the government works stay in office and train others as they arrive. The Tea Party made such a dent in the Congress and Senate when Bush was in office that they didn't really know what they were doing, they just tried to push through what they wanted. A third to a half of them have already left office, now that they have an idea of what is involved. The most satisfactory way to get rid of politicians is to unelect them, but you need to convince those who vote for that party that change is needed. It does eventually happen.

Gerrymandering and the Electoral College need to be removed, today we need one person one vote, and every vote needs to count. The GOP has managed to lock down so many congressional seats because of their artful dilution of Democratic voters in "safe" districts that one day that may be a case before the Supreme Court - if someone can figure out how to bring it forward.

Trump doesn't understand all of that, and the GOP is reaping the rewards of an undisciplined administration that frankly doesn't seem to care if they look presidential or even legal. This conversation is about how Trump fooled enough people into voting for him, voters who hope that some crumbs will fall their way during this administration so that they personally will benefit, to hell with everyone else who has to live with the low pay or pollution or deportations or financial chicanery, they are conservative voters who don't want consumer protections in place.

That other essay linked to above looks at various French philosophers:

(Foucault was the tough one, Derrida was the dreamy one, Lacan was the mysterious one — I like to imagine them sometimes as a black-turtlenecked, clove-smoking boy band called Hors de Texte, with the hit album "Discipline 'n' Punish.") Instead of constructing multivolume monuments of systematic thought, Barthes wrote short books built out of fragments. He was less interested in traditional coherence than in what he called jouissance: joy, surprise, adventure, pleasure — tantric orgasms of critical insight rolling from fragment to fragment. He proclaimed the death of the author and advocated a style of reading he referred to as "writerly," in which readers work as active creators of a text.

I have read these authors, and I also like Lyotard, who has written about archetypes and narrators. I detested Ronald Reagan as a president, but recognized his actor's ability to tell a story. Bill Clinton could mesmerize listeners as he described clearly how things work. Obama was an excellent speaker, tying all of the threads of a story together in what we recognize as presidential speech.

Trump just can't do it. He doesn't understand how to focus on others, he can't tell a good story, he can't stay on script because his thoughts always come racing back to himself. He's still trying to re-write the result of election night, galled by the idea that he didn't win the popular vote and therefore must erase Hillary and her supporters by suggesting millions of illegal voters cast those three million votes that put her ahead.

Trump is an archetype, and I'd like to see this conversation identify what that archetype is. A petty apologist from Scotland would like to shut down discussion that accomplishes this: I would ask that people simply ignore his uninformed remarks, and proceed with the conversation as if he isn't in the room. In other words, don't feed the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 07:54 PM

They vote with their bellies, not by the influence of highbrow psychology.

The aim of psychology is not to influence, but to analyze. Psychologists who study voting behavior aren't trying to get people to vote in a certain way (unless they're working for a political campaign). They're trying to determine why people vote the way they do.

And claiming that people "vote with their bellies" is simplistic. Yes, there are some for whom economic disenfranchisement is a bitter reality. They do vote with their bellies. But they're not most people. Trump received the votes of about 63 million people. If there were that many people in the US "voting with their bellies" we'd be in a depression that would make the 1930s look like a boom decade.

People are complex. They behave the way they do for a multiplicity of reasons, some good, some bad. And voting is as complex as any human behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 06:43 PM

Oh, and Vashta: good job!

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 06:39 PM

Half[sic] the Republican establishment briefing against their own Presidential candidate

What that actually demonstrates, Ake is that (tho a critically endangered species due to the rise of the alt-right, anti-government "Tea Party" bozos) there are still a few Republicans who retain at least the rudiments of intelligence and of a sense of decency and who recognize the clown now in the White House for what he is and has always been.

It would be even better for the country if at the end of the day they weren't such gutless wonders.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 06:15 PM

I did try to tell you, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 05:55 PM

Ake...in one sentence you use a silly 'name' that no one else uses... Donal-John... and slip sideways into a pronouncement about "the whole of Western Europe" and " a well off elite".

Then you expound on what Barthes 'means'. I'm not at all sure that's his view and I have no time right now to re-read it and decide... it's Valentines Day here and I have a good lady to celebrate with.

We'll see how this progresses overnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 05:53 PM

Jed Legum wrote the piece and excerpted from Barthes' essay in which Barthes wrote about wrestling vs boxing. Barthes was a philosopher and culture critic who died in 1980, about the time that Trump was palling around with Roy Cohn, so if he had written about Trump, it would probably have been in the context of choosing a better quality of mentor.

The "well-off elite" - you don't even know who that is. You don't seem to recognize that the western middle class white male, when compared to the rest of the world, IS the well-off elite, even though he thinks his standard of living is being diminished because women and minorities are FINALLY rising as far as income and fair treatment. A crass over-simplification of a shifting society where for centuries conservative white men (and some of their women) have had the upper hand, now comes down to those individuals deciding that everything can be solved (for them) if a clown is put in office instead of someone with drive and intellect. From another essay about Barthes:

"Mythologies" is often an angry book, and what angered Barthes more than anything was "common sense," which he identified as the philosophy of the bourgeoisie, a mode of thought that systematically pretends that complex things are simple, that puzzling things are obvious, that local things are universal — in short, that cultural fantasies shaped by all the dirty contingencies of power and money and history are in fact just the natural order of the universe. The critic's job, in Barthes's view, was not to revel in these common-sensical myths but to expose them as fraudulent. The critic had to side with history, not with culture. And history, Barthes insisted, "is not a good bourgeois." ¹

The altruistic political movement today is multicultural, has educated men in conjunction with lots of women and previously marginalized minorities; it is educated, and I suspect you're as dismissive of education as you are liberal politics.

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." --Isaac Asimov

Bread and circuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 05:50 PM

the hateful mess of 'reconstruction'

????? Are you talking "Birth of a Nation" or Eric Foner here?

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 05:46 PM

Vashta.."a downward spiral of the American political society." may only be one of many eddies in a larger current. I'm not sure that this is any worse than the mid-60s when the Dixiecrats reversed the party names and ideologies.... or any worse than the hateful mess of 'reconstruction' after the Civil War.
   There are many problems today, but we simply cannot lump both major parties and all the minor ones into the same clogged pile of &#$%*.
They are not simple mirror images of one another... they function on different levels with different goals and different methods. It is useless to chant "Throw them all out! Term limits!" Any serious change will require working from within... from various angles... to create a genuine concern for some sort of Utilitarian view that allows **fair** treatment for everyone... rich AND poor. Right now we have the Golden Rule... "He who has the gold makes the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 03:59 PM

The problem with Barthes proposition of course, is that the movement against the establishment is not confined to those who voted for Donal-John, the whole of Western Europe has had enough of being lectured by a well off elite on how to conduct themselves socially and politically while their jobs a standard of living go down the pan.

Barthes considers politics to be a showground in which victory in elections compensates for an ever falling standard of living and political incursions into traditional social values, I consider that he has made an accurate assessment of the situation which pertains at the moment, but do not believe for a minute that "ordinary people" as opposed to the political and social elite are stupid. They vote with their bellies, not by the influence of highbrow psychology.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 03:34 PM

Look again at the essay from the first post:

But why can't voters see that what Trump offers is just an act? As Barthes illustrates, that's asking the wrong question.

It is obvious that at such a pitch, it no longer matters whether the passion is genuine or not. What the public wants
is the image of passion, not passion itself. There is no more a problem of truth in wrestling than in the theater.

This analogy reveals why the attacks on Trump are so ineffective. Recently, Rand Paul and others have taken to calling out Trump
as an "entertainer," rather than a legitimate candidate. This is as effective to running into the middle of the ring during
Wrestlemania and yelling: "This is all fake!" You are correct, but you will not be received well.

This is describing a downward spiral of the American political society. Under this lens, with "normal" politics and Trump politics being equal, "traditional punditry [was] incapable of understanding his appeal." The article was written before he became a candidate. Trump simulacrum as a political statesman was misunderstood by many voters to be real. More than a few French philosophers are turning in their graves at this moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 02:21 PM

"Are you a mod now, Bill? "
Perhaps he sould be - as long as he is even handed
I'sd be more than happy to be moderated if Teribus's serial insulting was brought into check
If there were Oscars bor ill mannered rudeness...... but I suppose that's what we get when insecurity goes untreated
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 02:18 PM

?? Steve...I don't think I have said anything to suggest *I* was a mod. I personally think that it would be difficult to discuss the issues at the same time as being a moderator/censor on the topic.

I am reminded of a line I heard many years ago when someone was asked if they 'did something'.. "No I didn't... and if I had, I'd deny it."

I used it a couple of times myself long ago when I was questioned about 'having an affair' with some woman... it simply wasn't relevant for THAT person to know one way or the other.

I do know that above the line, one person has limited rights to edit the "In Memorium" thread... there was one VERY brief experiment a long time ago when Max tried allowing folks to edit their own posts, but I think it proved too difficult when editing changed the flow of the discussion as people altered what they had written. (It was supposed to be just a way to change bad spelling and flawed HTML... but...)

----------------------------
I have gotten a couple of PM replies from Ake, who says HE will try to follow my suggestions, but I fear the topic is dying under the weight of "Traditional Mudcat Thread Creep"

I am trying to follow news & ideas in the FaceBook thing, where very few remarks are deleted. At least there posts usually slide out of sight after a while and can be hard to find again due to the overwhelming volume. I prefer the Mudcat format, as it 'can' allow more serious discussions...over years, even.... but Google doesn't index FB, and a search doesn't lead new people to a topic. Sadly, FB has lured a huge # of folks into it's ad-ridden, format with tons of shallow crap mixed with real treasures.

"It was all so different before everything changed."

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 02:06 PM

Farage is just a bedfellow.

like Dennis Skinner, i'm a socialist and i want out of the eU.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 01:27 PM

Are you a mod now, Bill? Life can get confusing!

To her eternal credit, one moderator takes on akenaton publicly on the forum. Another one is privately willing to tolerate him as merely someone he disagrees with. I think it's more serious than that. A lot of the most frequent below-the-line contributors (both usual suspects and not) find the content of many of his posts to be deliberately provocative, wrong-headed and bigoted. I don't take offence at anything on this forum, but I do not want my views to be placed as somehow equal but opposite to his. His views on Trump, socialism, immigrants, women and gay people are utterly obnoxious to me and they are not in any regard equal and opposite to mine, Dave's, Jim's or anybody else's - and let's keep that separate from forum behaviour, an entirely different potential source of complaint against a number of us. Different but not separate: if this person is allowed to continue to sully the forum in his particular way, then the weaknesses inherent in human nature will inevitably tempt others to have it back at him and the place will be dragged down. I'll finish this little rant with my usual closing remark. This isn't my gig. So I'm just sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Stu
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 12:35 PM

"who seems to disbelieve my socialist credentials"

You're not a socialist Ake, although I don't doubt you were one. A socialist would NEVER support ultra free-marketeers like Farage, the UKIPs and Trump; it runs counter to everything they believe in.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 12:16 PM

Hi Bill Thanks for the PM, I have replied.

Hope you also sent one to Vasha.......who seems to disbelieve my socialist credentials.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 11:35 AM

Ake... and Jim Carroll... this is why the mods have deleted posts and closed threads. You cannot keep the personal insults and irrelevant bomb-tossing out of it!
See PMs...

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 11:01 AM

"Although there have been about half a dozen threads dedicated to the insult and ridicule of President Donal-John."
Nowhere near enough and why on earth should we not be able to acknowledge his character - or is that form of censorship what we can look forward to in your Brave New World
Jim Carroll?

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 10:54 AM

I tell you what. you gotta admire the foresight of those guys who refloated the Trump name after all his projects turned to shit.

They've got the keys to Fort Knox now.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 10:28 AM

Bernie Sanders is an Independent who serves under the flag Democratic Socialist or Progressive. The so-called "Socialist" participating in this thread is actually a Trump apologist, a GOP/Tea Party supporter. Who for some reason can't admit to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 08:53 AM

I celebrate whistle blowers.

Russia is said to use Snowden as a good will bargaining chip soon with Trump so Snowden may be extradited and imprisoned.:^(

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 07:54 AM

"The spitting bile remark was aimed at the media, not the Mudcat membership."
You aim the same level of bile at liberals and lefties.
Amazing for a "socialist"
You decide not t comment on a neo-fascist journalist who advocates poisoning opponents of Trump
Double standards again.
The flags remain until someone removes them - they stand for what needs to be said
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 07:38 AM

The spitting bile remark was aimed at the media, not the Mudcat membership. Although there have been about half a dozen threads dedicated to the insult and ridicule of President Donal-John.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 05:24 AM

I think I must have missed something. That'll teach me to have the audacity to go to bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 04:41 AM

Ake
If you object to strong debate, desist from using language like "They are all crawling out from under their stones spitting bile"
Jim Crroll

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 04:38 AM

"Why is this idiot with his Nazi insignia allowed to post on this forum."
For the same reason someone is allowed to present statements from an extreme racist like Ann Coulter, a misogynist, hate-mongering journalist who advocates poisoning politicians and locking liberals up in Guantanamo.
"What the hell has Nazi Germany got to do with this thread?"
It has everything to do with your politics and your adoration for Fuehrer Trump
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Stu
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 04:27 AM

" Any real change like our exit from the EU"

Nobody's attempting to stop that, it's that May et al don't have carte balance to act on all our behalf via the scrutiny and debate of our elected representatives and those responsible for overseeing the rule of law. This is precisely the "taking back control" you wanted, and now you whine about it.

There are choices besides a disastrous hard Brexit; were you in business you'd understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 04:13 AM

Why is this idiot with his Nazi insignia allowed to post on this forum. Does anyone find this sort of thing funny?....or is it simply desperation.....it does seem strange when members are trying to have a civilised discussion and having their posts removed.

What the hell has Nazi Germany got to do with this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 04:04 AM

Bill, how can you say in all seriousness that the political system is not massively corrupt when it has been exposed as such during the run-up to the election. Firstly the Democratic Party working against Mr Sanders to enable Mrs Clinton, an establishment icon to win.
Half the Republican establishment briefing against their own Presidential candidate to undermine him in every way they could.
I believe that many in the Republican hierarchy would have actually preferred to see a Clinton Presidency.

These matters would never have come to light without the "whistleblowers" who are now demonised by the Democrats as Anti American, :0).

We have exactly the same situation in the UK where the Established Parties are all dedicated to stop CHANGE in its tracks. Any real change like our exit from the EU are because of the populist revolution appearing all over Western Europe and the US.

It appears to me that the "left" are living a couple of decades behind the action. As I have said before, to effect change we need unity of purpose not division. Donal John has been democratically elected under the rules and must be given a chance to put his policies into practice........Detante with Russia, Jobs for the American people, an affordable healthcare service, an end to illegal immigration, don't seem like the works of the devil to me?

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 17 - 03:43 AM

"you can't be serious Ake."
'Fraid not Al
SOMEONE HAS TO KEEP THE FLAG FLYING
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 10:50 PM

The purchase of Alaska was no secret.
The Louisiana purchase was no secret.

Why is the Russian oil deal a secret?
Tillerman knows.

How will we judge Trump for this?
We shall see DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 10:35 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Executive orders?
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 01:32 PM

Without argument much more of this Russian oily love story with Trump was known as early as July by US intelligence. It was classified. It is now partly declassified. This case will deliberately open slower than a flower for all to see.

We are dependent on both our side and Russian sides of this deal to open it up for us to judge if this is treason or just a cash deal.

What this is about is the Russian state owned oil corporation who suddenly says they gave away one fifth of state owned oil profits {perhaps sold) to an unknown entity.

maraca? Mexico? Mongolia? or maybe a multi billionaire.

We know about Trump's representative named Price and how all this coincides in space and time. Price became a hot potato and separated from the Trump campaign.

We now know who and how much this deal to remove sanctions is about.

There are CIA factions who consider themselves unbound by the Constitution and the business of America is business and wants total classification. There are those that want the Russian deal to become transparent.

Trump wants intelligence to shut up.
He wants media to shut up.
He accuses them of traitorous betrayal.


To put a fine point on this:

The deal now has proof of existence but there is no proof as to Trump's personal cut of the 19% of all Russian oil profits.
Yet. I suspect it will be made public in time.

.........................

Now it is about General Flynn's part in this deal, but the CIA recorded Flynn up to his ass in the art of Trump's deal. Trump still thinks the presidency needs his deal making talent. Sorry Donald, good deals might be good for you but America is about a new deal beyond profit, beyond fear, beyond our borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 09:30 PM

I'll concede that Trump is part Maverick, the part that goes in the barn door last.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 09:11 PM

ah yes...fond memory...as my old Daddy used to say...

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 08:38 PM

"Maverick" actually has too many positive connotations for it to be even remotely applicable to Trump. Brett and Bart Maverick, who I watched avidly when a sprog, were ultimately men of good character despite cheating at cards. Maverick cattle were always depicted as wild, free spirits in the westerns. Wrong word. He's the enemy within. If he's a maverick bovine, he's one that's carrying tuberculosis, beef tapeworm and foot and mouth disease. Or, in his case, foot in mouth disease. And he's farting out airship loads of damaging methane to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 08:35 PM

akenaton, you said in part: ..."the corrupt political system and its tame rat the news and entertainment media is being exposed."

In your first sentence you have made 2 assumptions/claims. It is NOT obvious to everyone that the political system 'as a whole' is corrupt, nor that they control and/or significantly influence the media. There are examples of corruption and unwarranted influence, but sweeping generalizations are no more useful in analyzing the issues than they are when politicians use them to cajole the public.

Jim Carroll, DMcG, Big Al, Steve Shaw and Donuel have all tried to get at the basic point, and I agree with much they have said and if I had more time, would like to enlarge, discuss and critique some of their points. I simply don't sit here 12 hours a day monitoring the posts.
   I do recognize when someone takes a few words from someone's comment and instantly does a 90 degree turn in order to REstate their own pet themes and beliefs. It's like watching KellyAnne Conway... or many other political figures... respond to a question by changing the subject in order to regurgitate their side's talking points.

   I renew my requests to help clarify the issues... and "They are all crawling out from under their stones spitting bile.. is not exactly helpful...

'nuff said...

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 07:35 PM

There are too many organizations and teams calling themselves "Mavericks" for the negative reading you're implying, Mr. Red. And Trump ain't one of 'em. (Partly because he's feuding with Mark Cuban who owns the Dallas Mavericks.) To paraphrase what Lloyd Bentson told Dan Quayle in their VP debate, I know Mavericks, and you're no Maverick.

He was a Roy Cohn toady and that alone should have alarmed the majority of the population into never considering his candidacy.

Angels In America was written to reflect the time when the AIDS crisis was full-blown, in the Reagan era. I'm willing to bet if we look through that text and pass it over today's events we'll find lots of plot elements and epigramatic lines that address the political turmoil of today. Trump isn't a closeted gay man, he's a predator who is out in the open and getting away with it. Cohn taught him well.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 07:28 PM

Big Al, Come to think about it, We are on our second Billie Graham, we have two Popes in the Vatican and for President we have Bannon and Trump on top of the emergency shadow government.

We seem to have plenty of redundancy when it come to the transfer of corruption and fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 05:44 PM

maverick - Meriam Webster no word of respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 05:37 PM

I won't dwell on it unless we have to, Ake, but I think it is clear enough that while I think Bartnes does address one of many factors behind the election, I don't go along with the comment about IIiberal values. I would also make a very much stronger distinction between neoliberalism, which is essentially about deregulation of business and trade deals, and social liberalism, which is about how we treat each other. These are quite different, and blurring the distinction is at best unhelpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 05:29 PM

god alone knows what he will achieve for the people who have given him their trust

Doesn't take a deity - excluding the 1%, what he will achieve for for the people who have given him their trust is ZIP.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 05:24 PM

you can't be serious Ake.

self interest is the dynamo that drives Trump. i don't think great insights into the human condition are his stock in trade. that's more Billy Graham and the Pope.

however the massive indifference to the fate of displaced workers was a massive marketing opportunity that he was smart enough to recognise.

the main party candidates are all in hock to the big companies for their campaigns.

then comes this guy who is very media savvy. he doesn't need an advertising agency - he's a gift to whichever party backs him. i bet he did it for relatively speaking nothing. and because he's not in hock he can say the unsayable.

god alone knows what he will achieve for the people who have given him their trust, but they'd better count the cutlery before he splits - going on his past record.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 04:23 PM

in the main the public are starting to reject neo- liberalism and social "liberalism", they don't believe it anymore

And instead are embracing, with Trump and the Trumpists, corporatism, cronyism, oligarccy, "trickle-down" economics, environmental pollution union-busting, racism, destruction of Medicare & Social Secutity & public education, etc. etc. AS THE WAY FORWARD?

If you're right, Ake, "the public" are even more ignorant and stupid than I've given them credit for, and are ba perfect example of cognitive dissonance.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 03:57 PM

"Maverick" is perfect.

The important thing is that the corrupt political system and its tame rat the news and entertainment media is being exposed. They are all crawling out from under their stones spitting bile......THEY are afraid....very afraid. The myth is crumbling.

Regarding Barthes, I agree with DMcG he has exposed one small area of a huge movement......in the main the public are starting to reject neo- liberalism and social "liberalism", they don't believe it anymore, they want a life for their children and themselves.
They have finally made the connection between left, right, and the media.......the biggest con in history.

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 03:17 PM

the term Maverick could have been invented for guys like Trump. like you say watch and be afraid...he doesn't seem to get on with anybody very much.

That's not the American understanding of the term maverick. If someone is "a maverick" they're independent, it's meant to praise their ability to function apart from the herd. It doesn't mean scary or can't get along with everyone else.

I think the term you're searching for might be "grouch" or "outlyer."

Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 01:30 PM

"Jim using words like schlock"
That's a direct quote from the Irish Times, but I understood it is a Yiddish word - I heard it used by my Jewish friends a lot in Manchester.
Jim Carroll