BS: UK nuclear subs

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 04:02 AM

Not forgetting
SOMEONE WHO SUPPORTS BRITAIN ABROAD AND IS LOYAL TO FELLOW RIGHT-WINGERS
AND FOREVER ON THE UP AND UP
Maybe it's all this non-support you've been giving them - waddya think??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:59 AM

"I have no intentions in entering into a dialogue with someone who is supporting a party he doesn't support - I think that sort of madness might be infectious." - Jim Carroll

About the most idiotic stance I have ever heard. It is also very demonstrative of Jim's greatest failing when it comes to any discussion.

To illustrate this point

Jim Carroll states some point of view on a political party or event. What he states is viewed by someone else as being incorrect and that person responds to Jim's post pointing out the errors and details what they think is the real and factual case. Jim then flies into a rage, accuses whoever of being every sort ".....ist" under the Sun, guilty of every "...ism" imaginable with the added certainty that they must be the most fervent supporter of the party and ideology he is criticising - which of course is "complete and utter" bollocks to use Shaw's expression (Please note the expression of Shaw's that I am referring to is the word "Bollocks" - the "Complete and utter" bollocks is my opinion of Jim Carroll's debating style)

You see Jim you can come out with totally unsubstantiated slurs and accusations aimed at UKIP, or any other party, and I can criticise you for doing so without being a supporter of that party. My motivation for drawing your attention to the errors in your statement being simply to establish what the real facts of the matter are. When it comes to politics on this forum I have very little respect for ANY politician or any political party. I am probably the most A-political person on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:54 AM

"I do insist I am not an extremist, and await an example of extremism from me."
Anybody who describes all make Pakistanis as being implanted to rape underage women is as extreme as a bag of frogs
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?"
As I said - extreme as a bag of frogs
"No it never has. Remind us of this proof."
Just have Keith - don't staryt pretending you haven't been given it again Keith - old trick of yours
"Their vote has steadily increased."
Yep It increased from one to no M.P.s in the last election
A SERIOUS PARTY
A RESPONSIBLE PARTY

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:28 AM

Jim,
Ukip's racism has been debated and proved over and over again

No it never has. Remind us of this proof.
You linked to an article where some people claimed a poster was racist.
The police decided it was not and took no action.

I do insist I am not an extremist, and await an example of extremism from me.

There is no obvious increase in their popularity, no sign that they have made any grounds as a party,

Admit you are wrong about that Jim.
Their vote has steadily increased.
In the general election Ukip came second in 118 of the 650 parliamentary seats.
They had more support than the Lib Dems and half Labour's vote.
"Overall, Ukip secured 12.6% of the vote, an increase of 9.5 percentage points from the 2010 election, the largest of any major party and more than three times the size of the SNP's improvement."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/09/margate-ukip-greens-electoral-reform-farage

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 09:43 AM

"How on earth can someone who holds such sensible and informative views on folk music, write such drivel on politics?"
Probably the same way somebody who declares himself a "socialist" can express such contempt for the left and everything it stands for.
Why not try answering the points rather than indulging in cowardly stone-throwing from the sidelines.
Feel free to expose my arguments as "drivel" any time you feel up to it - but don't leave it too long - none of us are getting any younger
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 05:52 AM

How on earth can someone who holds such sensible and informative views on folk music, write such drivel on politics?

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 04:44 AM

I have no intentions in entering into a dialogue with someone who is supporting a party he doesn't support - I think that sort of madness might be infectious.
No more dialogues Keith
Ukip's racism has been debated and proved over and over again - his posters, his campaign message, his taking up where Powell and B.N.P. left off - his party's attraction for the racist nutters of society - all old ground.
"Can you give an example of them doing that, "
YES
I won't raise your racist smear about "cultural implants" or Jewish parliamentary 'silence on antisemitim, or Irish children brainwashed to hate Britain" here, but I am happy to do so if you insist your not an extremist.
Petrhaps I won't - as I said, no more dialogues for "love of the party" (or in our case, 'forum@ eh Keith
But as I have said "once stated publicly, forever written in stone".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 04:01 AM

Jim,
Ukip has always campaigned on a racist ticket - they took up where Powell
and B.N.P. left off

You make the claim but can not back it with a single fact.
Where is your evidence of racism?

By playing on people's Xenophobia, Brexit helped to swing the vote

Can you give an example of them doing that, or is it just another baseless smear?

There is no obvious increase in their popularity, no sign that they have made any grounds as a party,

Yes there is. Their vote has steadily increased.
In the general election Ukip came second in 118 of the 650 parliamentary seats.
They had more support than the Lib Dems and half Labour's vote.
"Overall, Ukip secured 12.6% of the vote, an increase of 9.5 percentage points from the 2010 election, the largest of any major party and more than three times the size of the SNP's improvement."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/09/margate-ukip-greens-electoral-reform-farage

You'll be telling us your not an extremist next

I am not an extremist.
You will find no extreme view in any post of mine, but do try to prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 03:40 AM

"How little you know or understand Jim.
You must be in a constant state of confusion."
Don'y you start hiding your ignorance behind defensive insults Keith - one ignorant talking-down o-brain is enough and you certainly have no grounds to start
Ukip has always campaigned on a racist ticket - they took up where Powell
and B.N.P. left off
Ukip was an element in winning (funny how reisking the economy and the future of the British people can bed described that way) Brexit.
By playing on people's Xenophobia, Brexit helped to swing the vote - they won nothing.
There is no obvious increase in their popularity, no sign that they have made any grounds as a party, they have no policy beyond their hate stirring
Their antics as an organisation, their attraction for extremist loonies, their public fisticuffs, their inand about turn leadership, the clownish behaviour of their leading figures....... - a serious contender - I don't think so.
Come out from bihnd your insulting bluster and tell us why anybody would support this party you don't support (or claim not to)
They are so electable even you don't have the bottle to admit your support for them, and who can blame you
You've broken your neck trying to prove that a decent political party is antisemitic (and failed miserably) and now you are supporting a party (you don't support!!) that has a history of racism and hate stirring against the most desperately needy members of humanity.
You'll be telling us your not an extremist next
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 09:45 PM

Oh dear Shaw a thread where you have run out of steam and cannot resort to meaningless waffle - Otherwise recognised as "Complete and utter" bollocks, to use your expression to divert everybody's attention ( Please note the expression of Shaw's that I am referring to is the word "Bollocks" - the "Complete and utter" bollocks is my opinion of what Steve Shaw normally writes on any question under the Sun).

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 05:22 PM

Why don't you just evaporate, Keith? The word "tiresome" was invented just for you. Just toddle off and enjoy life.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 03:29 PM

Jim,
And led Britain out of the EU - that's how principled a party they are - get people to vote for them and destroy the thing they voted for.
People who voted for EU candidates presumeably believed in the EU otherwise they wouldn't have bothered voting.

How little you know or understand Jim.
You must be in a constant state of confusion.
UKIP has ALWAYS campaigned to get us out, and that was how they won the last EU election and the referendum.

But for all the fears stirred up by the establishment the referendum would have been even more clear cut. They almost persuaded me to vote against.

It is a one shot party based on a racist campagn to get the UK out of Europe

They deny racism, and in the other threads none of you could identify any racism in their publications.
If there is nothing there, how do you know they are racist?

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 06:56 AM

A follow up point about Ukip
It is a one shot party based on a racist campagn to get the UK out of Europe
Now that Britain is out and Ukip has no MPs, it has no role whatever nationally - as marginal as that
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 06:27 AM

I was just going to post a message to Dave as he's up in the Dales to try Dent. That's nearly on topic, innit! Whaddam I like!

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 05:07 AM

I should point out (not that it bothers me one iota) that people are not keeping on-topic.

Some of these people are the very same ones who complain about off topic postings.

Just saying like.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 04:58 AM

"I am no supporter, but UKIP actually beat all the other parties in the 2014 EU election."
And led Britain out of the EU - that's how principled a party they are - get people to vote for them and destroy the thing they voted for.
People who voted for EU candidates presumeably believed in the EU otherwise they wouldn't have bothered voting.
The candidates they voted for then set about destroying their objective - what kind of politics is that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 04:52 AM

"What "insecurity" Jom? "
Enough !!
I'm tired of these threads being turned into personal slanging matches, mainly through your talking down to everybody who disagrees with you but only you start any posting with insulting behaviour - interminably
Now you seem to have been joined by another acolyte
If you can't take part in s discussion by referring to people by their chosen titles and stoop referring to them as "a pack", I suggest you take your mindless behaviour elsewhere and let the rest of us discuss things in an adult manner
I really have had a bellyful of threads being fucked up by brutish bad manners
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 04:42 AM

Jim,
It's eternal leadership idiocies, resignations, foot-in-mouths and generaal clownish displays and its attraction for the lunatic fringe of British politics makes it the laughing stock that it is - as you say, "some fringe".

You have just described the Labour Party, not UKIP Jim!

I am no supporter, but UKIP actually beat all the other parties in the 2014 EU election.
Some fringe.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 02:36 PM

Teribus. Insecurity is the new buzzword for the pack. I think they need to ask Akela what it means.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 02:01 PM

What "insecurity" Jom? What on earth have I got to feel insecure about?

Certainly nothing connected with anything you might try to put up by way of argument.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 10:57 AM

"I'm persistent certainly Jom"
in being an ugly-minded insecure lout - if that's what you mean
Eaxch time you post is a reminder of where you stand in the 'pecking order'
Your folks must be very proud of what you've turned into
Did you notice - youalways throw your toys out of the pram when you're stuck?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 10:49 AM

I'm persistent certainly Jom, especially when I have to wade through the ill-informed, bigoted, biased and intolerant ramblings that your posts represent.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 09:46 AM

"Jom Cattoll "
And your persistent, ill brought up, unimaginative loutishness makes you a mindless bully
Please go and play and let the adults argue it out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 09:27 AM

Do you know what we call opinion in the absence of evidence? We call it prejudice

None so blind, T; none so blind......

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 08:23 AM

"Do you know what we call opinion in the absence of evidence? We call it prejudice." ― Michael Crichton, State of Fear

Which makes you Jom Cattoll the most prejudiced person on this forum.

On the application of reasoning and logic with respect to the employment/unemployment thing. The UK has consistently had a higher rate of employment than the EU and a lower rate of unemployment than the EU since 2005 so how if employment opportunities are lower in the EU does being a member state help British citizens find work? If unemployment is higher in the EU how does being a member state help British citizens find work? Answer to both is - IT DOESN'T

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 07:41 AM

Jim:
I heve no idea what the postition will be as far as Brits already living abroad - I do know that the door will have closed to future workers seeking employment.
It's amazing what you 'know' when the negotiations have yet to take place.

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned 'logic' alone. For a reasoned debate both logic and facts are needed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 07:03 AM

"Firstly, no decision has yet been made about what will happen to ex-pats in Europe, or EC citizens in UK. "
Yes, lets' take it jlogically
The benefits of being aan EU member have been put at risk and there is no reason that Britain should retain them when they become just another country
I heve no idea what the postition will be as far as Brits already living abroad - I do know that the door will have closed to future workers seeking employment.
You choose not to mention the decade-long destabilisation the economy - not part of your logic, apparently
"Jom,"
You seem to have as little belief in your own arguments as anybody else has - otherwise, why would you continue to hide behind your bullying bluster?
Europe faces six elections this year- all contested by neo-fascist parties opposing membership of the EU - Austria was a near-miss, LePen is a possibility and is almost certainly in cahoots with Trump already, the rest will all have taken heart from
Ukip has one MP and no policy beyond stopping immigrants - it's life-blood is right-wing populism
It's eternal leadership idiocies, resignations, foot-in-mouths and generaal clownish displays and its attraction for the lunatic fringe of British politics makes it the laughing stock that it is - as you say, "some fringe".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:50 AM

Steve the man can say whatever he wants. The problem is that he is so detested that remainders are likely to desert in droves as soon as he babbles on about another referendum and remaining. He is, to quote a well used phrase:- "The turd in the punchbowl"

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:42 AM

Blair may not be much help, but I'd like to see you challenge the rationality of what he's saying. And please don't give me that "undemocratic" guff. It's undemocratic to say that a man shouldn't be saying what he thinks. That might change, of course, when the Trumps, Le Pens, Wilders and Farages of this world gain the ascendancy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:37 AM

The 'a' is optional, Stanron. And you don't agree with me because the expression is a sarcastic one, indicating that what I've just said Is the opposite of what I really think. Do go and look things up before putting your foot in it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:20 AM

I would say that Blair coming back to reinvigorate the "remainders" has to be the biggest own goal of all time for them. Never in the field of human conflict has a man generated so much contempt. I do like the comments section in the daily wail about him- there are some real classics. Good old Guido Fawkes just loves the man too.

https://order-order.com/2017/02/17/labour-condemn-blairs-contempt-democracy/#disqus_thread

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Stanron
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 06:12 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: I should coco!

Put an 'a' on the end of that and I'd agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 05:51 AM

I'd say that the people clutching at straws here are those whining about things that have not happened - "invented reality" - oh yes Shaw worry, "the sky is falling".

As nothing compared to your invented reality that we are going to be a great trading nation once again, that other countries will come running into our arms, that we will once again "get back control" (tell it to the multinationals!). The country is leaving the EU precisely because your side peddled a pack of lies about an invented reality.

"Because of Brexit and Trump, the EU is in danger of collapse."

As you seem to have cast yourself as the forum's expert on talking bollocks,

Well I thought you'd be over the moon about the prospect of an EU collapse as you've never said one good word about it. But here you are trying to soothe us by saying that talk of its collapse is bollocks. Why would that be, I wonder? I'll tell you why. Because you know damn well that an uncontrolled, chaotic collapse of the EU (no other kind would be possible) would pitch the world into severe danger. All those fascists, including Putin, are waiting in the wings, aren't they, and Mr "America First" won't have a clue how to handle it except for becoming more and more isolationist and protectionist. Just him and China. Whoop-de-doo!

Take a bloody good look at dissatisfaction with the EU within the European member states Shaw and you will find that it is widespread, well established and was in existence long before Brexit and long before Donald Trump won the 2016 US Presidential election.

Indeed, but the game has changed. All that long-term dissatisfaction is now seasoned with a heavy dose of waiting-in-the-wings fascism thinly disguised as populism. You've defeated your own argument by pointing to that dissatisfaction. With the help of the fascist threat, the EU could be terminally undermined.

You mention Le Pen. The Political Party she leads was founded when? It was formerly led by who - Her father wasn't it? And he was elected leader of it WHEN**?

Similarly Geerd Wilders**

** As Shaw will not answer questions asked. In the case of Jean-Marie Le Pen his National Party was formed by him in 1972 the year BEFORE the UK joined the EU. While Wilders formed his Party in 2004

Indeed. But these threats have changed from marginal to mainstream. Trump, Le Pen, Farage and Wilders are no longer clowns on the sidelines almost but not quite as entertaining as Screaming Lord Sutch. As you gleefully point out in the case of Farage, these people are gaining millions of votes. No threat? Brave new world for little England? I should coco!

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 05:08 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 10:08 AM

"The UK employment rate has been higher than the EU average every year since 2005."
At present there are 1.2 million British people working in Europe; at least 30,000 of them are drawing unemployment benefit (one of the perks of membership that stands to be lost).
Are you seriously suggesting that the British economy can stand the strain of them having to return?

Let's take that logically (if that's possible).
Firstly, no decision has yet been made about what will happen to ex-pats in Europe, or EC citizens in UK. It may be that this will continue as at present, but with reduced ability for more people to move freely to find work (or go on the dole).
Secondly, if the system did require a wholesale relocation of workers to their home countries then, according to the figures you quote, we would receive 1.2 million people who have shown themselves willing and able to work and 30,000 people who currently claim unemployment benefit. That's an unemployment percentage of 2.5%. That should improve our employment statistics.
Unless of course you believe that all the ex-pats will be forced to return, but all the EC workers currently here will remain here.

The sky is not falling, but feel free to continue your Chicken Little impersonation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 04:49 AM

"the fringe nature of Ukip"

Some fringe Jom, in the last UK General Election only two political parties, the Conservatives and Labour, succeeded in getting more votes than UKIP.

"Because of Brexit and Trump, the EU is in danger of collapse."

That was Shaw's statement and that is the "Complete and utter bollocks" I challenged him on.

Won't really bother with yours as you are only spouting your "same old usual bollocks"

The EU's common currency, the Euro, was rushed into being against the specific advice of the man who came up with the idea, who insisted that a common currency could only be introduced after full fiscal and political union had been achieved. The EU Commission ignored him in order to push their own ideological goals and the result has been that they have destroyed the economies of the southern/Mediterranean member states - Greece, Cyprus, Italy, Spain, Portugal.

Take a look at the countries that have said "NO" to EU diktat in the past - you will not find the UK among them. The Eurosceptic parties have grown in popularity because the failings of the EU have become increasingly more apparent - no other reason.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 03:38 AM

"long before Donald Trump won the 2016 US Presidential election. "
Of course the problem parties have existed long before Trump - that is not the point
Up to recently they have been regarded as fringe parties and have appealed ony to the extreme - the rejection of BNP and the fringe nature of Ukip are typical of how they were regarded
The possibilities of them being taken seriously have accelerated with the advent of the Brexit mob and the election of Trump due to the use of scapegoat populism - the blaming of immigrants and refugees for the nation's problems.
Trump has been quick to take advantage of the tactic - he has latched on to Russia for support, LePen has been photographed at Trump Tower and yesterday he tore up the One State solution to win over Netunyahu as a supporter - right-wing extremists all.
The extreme right are coming into their own - one is in the White House (and the British PM was first to genuflect and kiss his arse).
Trump and Brexit have turned a distant threat into possibility.
Now for the stream of old usual insecure abuse from Teribus - off you go laddie!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 03:12 AM

Ehmmmm, I'd say that the people clutching at straws here are those whining about things that have not happened - "invented reality" - oh yes Shaw worry, "the sky is falling".

"Because of Brexit and Trump, the EU is in danger of collapse."

As you seem to have cast yourself as the forum's expert on talking bollocks, I take it that quoted above is merely one of your finer examples which I suppose would fall under the classification of "Complete and utter" bollocks.

Now should I be bothered to review your position on Brexit on the appropriate threads, would I find a Shaw predicting catastrophe for the UK and descriptions of the EU ever moving forward to the sunny uplands of economic success, prosperity and attainment of the "socialist" Utopia?

Take a bloody good look at dissatisfaction with the EU within the European member states Shaw and you will find that it is widespread, well established and was in existence long before Brexit and long before Donald Trump won the 2016 US Presidential election.

You mention Le Pen. The Political Party she leads was founded when? It was formerly led by who - Her father wasn't it? And he was elected leader of it WHEN**?

Similarly Geerd Wilders**

** As Shaw will not answer questions asked. In the case of Jean-Marie Le Pen his National Party was formed by him in 1972 the year BEFORE the UK joined the EU. While Wilders formed his Party in 2004

If the EU is under threat it is because of it's own actions, it's monstrous corruption, inefficiency and slavish adherence to ideology irrespective of the problems being faced and sage advice given.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 08:09 PM

This supposed rise in "fascism" ...."democracy" as we know it has not been destroyed and at the moment is under no threat whatsoever.

Wow, I see that 1930s complacency never died!

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 06:41 PM

This supposed rise in "fascism"...what do you think has caused it?

Fascists, perhaps? "Alternative facts"? Persons of yours and Trump's and LePen's and Farage's ilk?

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 05:38 PM

You're struggling. Clutching at straws. I hope you saw Trump on the telly tonight in his news conference. Watch that, watch him attack the judges, watch him attack the media, watch him lie about Russia - then tell me again that democracy isn't under threat. Watch the rise of people like Wilders and Le Pen. You ok with all that? Well I'm bloody not. Because of Brexit and Trump, the EU is in danger of collapse. Hurrah, I hear you shout. But that collapse will fuel years of economic crisis and will give succour to the types of populists/fascists that, at the very best, I never hear you condemning. Well you and I will be long gone. Dunno about you, but I'm a dad and a grandad.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 04:49 PM

This supposed rise in "fascism" in Europe and in the US Shaw, what do you think has caused it?

The undoubted and outstandingly successful governance of the countries involved by the liberal socialist left?

As far as I am aware "democracy" as we know it has not been destroyed and at the moment is under no threat whatsoever.

If you think the EU is doomed and about to suffer an uncontrolled meltdown why on God's earth do you advocate that we should remain a part of something so fragile and unstable?

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 04:06 PM

Baling out Greece is the least of anyone's worries at the moment. You may not have noticed it, but the rise of populism/fascism in Europe and the US (the two phenomena are inextricably intertwined) are not just threatening the existence of the EU (which you and your little cabal here are crowing about), but of democracy itself. All we need is an unseemly, uncontrolled collapse of the EU, the inevitable economic meltdown in Europe to follow and a fascist or three in power. You seem happy to see Europe set back a hundred years. And I thought you liked history.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 02:48 PM

" Jom"
Latest display from of persuasive argument – from this thread alone – so far - no doubt much more to come

Best stick to your wild flowers and your diet.

Only to you Stu, only to you.

Priceless Raggy - f**kin' priceless
Stick to orchids pal - you know S.F.A. about submarines.
And no Raggy unlike you I do not believe everything I read in the Press.

Well Stu at least you seem to realise that the point Raggytush was trying to make was a load of shit.

What part of "the Vanguard Class of nuclear missile carrying submarines is unaffected" did you fail to understand?

Do you do that "veracity check" before or after you post complete and utter codswallop Raggers? Applied to this thread it would appear that you only do your checking after the event of you going into print and making a complete and utter arse of yourself.

Ah Raggyarse, paying far too much attention to Jom I see - you shouldn't because off traditional music he's not really all that reliable.

What's the matter Raggedarse plain English comprehension too difficult for you, or are you catching Jom's dyslexia - never thought it was contagious. What is it about you Raggy that compels you to react to every post by trying to make some pathetic smart-arse remark that never quite gets there but just merely succeeds in you jamming both your feet firmly in your mouth - here is a classic example:

"Delude yourselves all you want, but the performance figures all stack up against you. "
Apples and oranges
Comparing a small relatively wealthy island with most of a continent which is mainly rural and virtually devoid of industry it utter nonsense
And none of you have responded to the almost certain losses of jobs that will occur - despite your blustering insecurity
You never learn, do you?
Bullying idiot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 02:13 PM

Oh dear Shaw and Jom are being routed by commentators turning their own logic and arguments against them.

Delude yourselves all you want, but the performance figures all stack up against you. Merkel and Germany at the moment are hoping and praying that Greece will not give the Eurozone another hit, as at the moment Germany cannot afford to bail them out.

Tell me Jom are you saying that prior to 1973 no UK citizens worked in Europe? Or elsewhere in the world for that matter?

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 10:08 AM

"The UK employment rate has been higher than the EU average every year since 2005."
At present there are 1.2 million British people working in Europe; at least 30,000 of them are drawing unemployment benefit (one of the perks of membership that stands to be lost).
Are you seriously suggesting that the British economy can stand the strain of them having to return?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 09:00 AM

Well, Iains and Stanron, Wilders and Le Pen are both anti-EU fascists. Italy is out of love with the EU too. Merkel may well lose her grip. Then of course there's Putin. You may be feeling prematurely triumphalist about all that. As for me, I'm just recalling what Europe was like before we had the fully-fledged EU, when we had an economic crisis (inevitable again if the EU implodes) and when we had a few fascists at the helm. Anyone for Salazar, the Greek colonels, Franco...and Hitler? Do you think Mr "America first" will jump in to save us?

There will be no "good deals" for us. We're stuffed whatever happens. And we are the major contributor to that. Your days of hope are days of cloud cuckoos.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 08:15 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 06:42 AM

"So if we have so little to sell to the EU, why do we need access to their market?"
Because being a member of the EU brings more than an out let for goods - a source of work for the unemployed Britain cannot cope with for a start

That's a classic!
According to the EU (I hope you accept their statistics)The UK employment rate has been higher than the EU average every year since 2005. How continuing to be a member of a group with lower percentage employment than us will help our unemployed I fail to see. Table here
And for percentage employed, never below 7th place on that table.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 07:22 AM

Stanron. +100

Not forgetting of course: Geert Wilders, a Eurosceptic, taking a lead in the polls, Greek rumours of adopting the US$, Marine Le Pen becoming more popular by the moment.

Seems the wheels on the bus are not entirely turning with the expected degree of precision. In fact they are in danger of falling off.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 06:52 AM

A lovely, well made, set of points Steve. Lots of other members see the advantages of leaving the EU suggesting that the UK is not all that daft in getting out first. We were first with steam trains, first with the jet engine and first out of the economical and political disaster that is the EU. Same old same old. Other countries wanting the same deal would have to be able to offer the same levels of financial contribution and defence contribution. The only one that comes near is France and if France leaves at least the EU will be able to stop moving it's Parliament back and forward between two different places every month. Stuffed? Stuffed with hope and opportunity perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: UK nuclear subs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 06:42 AM

"So if we have so little to sell to the EU, why do we need access to their market?"
Because being a member of the EU brings more than an out let for goods - a source of work for the unemployed Britain cannot cope with for a start
The present situation in our non-existent manufacturing industry cannot continue indefinitely - a revival of shipbuilding has been a dream for over a decade - planning for future expansion has to be a vital factor.
As little as we have to offer, we have to sell somewhere - Europe is the most convenient and it is also a rout to beyond.
Mayfly and her acolytes seem to be dreaming of a future with the States under a totally unstable President - hence here being to being prepared to drop her national knickers so quickly - putting all your eggs in one rotten basket.
Brexit was sold on a Xenophobic ticket - even if it were morally acceptable, it is not enough reason to take such a massive leap in the dark.
Jim Carroll