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Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III

Related threads:
Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART IV (86)
Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II (124) (closed)
Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants (125) (closed)


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Subject: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 02:51 PM

      This is an edited PermaThread®, used for a special project. This thread will be moderated. Feel free to post to this thread, but remember that all messages posted here are subject to editing or deletion.
      -Joe Offer-

Hi,

This is a study of Died for Love songs as suggested by Steve Gardham, who also studied these ballads/songs and has provided a number of excellent versions and broadsides.

From this I've organized the ballads/songs as such: (link with unfinished rough draft: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7-died-for-love-brisk-young-sailorrambling-boy.aspx)

A. Died for Love-- Roud 60 ("I Wish, I Wish") Roud 495
   a. "The Effects of Love- A New Song," broadside; 1 sheet; 1/80. British Library 11621.k.4(158), London c.1780.

B. The Cruel Father ("A squire's daughter near Aclecloy,") her love is sent to sea- dies of a cannonball; Roud 23272
   a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790.
   b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799.
   c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800
   d. "Answer to Rambling Boy," four printings from US Chapbooks: 1. The Harper: to which are added, Shannon's flowery banks, The rambling boy, with The answer. Bung your eye, Henry and Laury [i.e. Laura]. London [i.e., Philadelphia : s.n., 1805?] 2. The Rambling boy, with the Answer : to which is added, Blue bells of Scotland, Good morrow to your night cap, Capt. Stephen Decatur's victory, Green upon the cape. From Early American imprints., Second series, no. 50722. [Philadelphia]: [publisher not identified], 1806; 3. The Bold mariners: The rambling boy, and the answer: Roslin Castle, to which is added the answer: Flashy Tom. [Philadelphia? : s.n.], January, 1811; 4. Ellen O'Moore. The Bold mariners. The Rambling boy. Barbara Allen. [United States : s.n.], January, 1817.
   e. "Sweet William," as written down about July 1, 1915, by Miss Mae Smith of Sugar Grove, Watauga county, from the singing of her stepmother, Mrs. Mary Smith, who learned it over forty years ago. submitted by Thomas Smith, Brown Collection, c.1875.
   f. "Rambling Boy" Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax 1916 edition.
   g. "Cruel Father" sung by Fanny Coffee of White Rock, Virginia on May 8, 1918. Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection.
   h. "The Wrecked and Rambling Boy" from Mrs. Audrey Hellums, Tishomingo, Mississippi. Hudson C, 1926
   i. "Oh Willie" from Mary Lou Bell of Staunton Virginia; 1932
   j. "The Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe.
   k. "I Am a Rambling Rowdy Boy," sung by Rena Hick of Beech Mountain, NC collected in December, 1933 by Melinger Henry. Songs Sung in the Southern Appalachians, by Mellinger Henry, London c.1934.
   l. "Black Birds.' Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Allegheny County, NC, 1938
   m. "Oh Willie" sung by Rod Drake of Silsbee Texas; See Owens, 1952.
   n. "Rude and Rambling Boy," Buna Hicks Sugar Grove, NC , 1966. Warner

C. The Rambling Boy ("I am a wild and a rambling boy") Roud 18830, c. 1765
   a. "The Wild Rover," The Musical Companion (British Library) London, c. 1765.
   b. "Rambling Boy," To which is Added, The New Vagary O, Shepherds I Have Lost My Love, The Drop of Dram, Fight Your Cock in the Morning. Published by W. Goggin of Limerick BM 11622 c.14, dated 1790.
   c. "Rambling Boy," from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799. Same text as "Rambling Boy" printed by William Scott in Greenock no date, probably early 1800s [c. 1812].
   d. "Rambling Boy," broadside J. Pitts, 14 Great St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials, London c. 1806
   e. "The Wild Rambling Boy," T. Birt, Printer, 39, Great St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials; London c. 1833.
   f. "The Rambling Boy" broadside first line "rake and rambling boy" (Manchester Reference Library, Ballads Vol. 5, page 392) Gardham 5A

D. Brisk Young Lover ("A brisk young sailor courted me,") Roud 60
   a. "The Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her Sweetheart," from the Manchester Central library; c.1775. It is mixed with Oxfordshire Tragedy c. 1686 (after stanza 4) and called a sequel to Oxfordhire by Ebsworth.
   b. "A New Song Call'd the Distress'd Maid," London, (no imprint) in the Madden Collection Cambridge University Library (Slip Songs H-N no. 1337) c.1785.
   c. ["A Faithful Shepherd"] - from John Clare (b. 1793 in Helpstone), MS dated 1818
   d. "Brisk Young Sailor," broadside by W. Pratt, Printer, 82, Digbeth, Birmingham; c.1850
   e. "Brisk Young Sailor," broadside by Bebbington, Manchester; c. 1855
   f. "Brisk Young Sailor" sung by Starlina Lovell, gypsy, in Wales area. Collected by Groome, published 1881.
   g. "There Was Three Worms," sung by Mr. Bartlett of Dorset in 1905; collected by H.E.D Hammond. From: Songs of Love and Country Life by Lucy E. Broadwood, Cecil J. Sharp, Frank Kidson, Clive Carey and A. G. Gilchrist; Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Vol. 5, No. 19 (Jun., 1915), pp. 174-203.
   h. "A Brisk Young Sailor." Sung by Thomas (William) Colcombe, Weobley, Herefords, noted F.W. Jekyll, Sep. 1906.
   i. "A Brisk Young Sailor." Tune noted by Francis Jekyll in 1908. Tune and 1st stanza given by Mr. Ford of Scaynes Hill, Sussex; additional words by Mrs. Cranstone. From the George Butterworth Manuscript Collection (GB/12/3).
   j. "Died For Love" (A bold young farmer) Isla Cameron

E. Butcher Boy ("In Jersey city where I did dwell") Roud 409; Roud 18832
   a. "The Butcher Boy." broadside [Philadelphia]: J.H. Johnson, song publisher, 7 N. Tenth St., Philadelphia., c. 1860
   b. "The Butcher Boy," broadside from H. De Marsan (New York), 1861-1864 Bodleian, Harding B 18(72) c. 1860
   c. "The Butcher Boy of Baltimore," words and music by Harry Tofflin. "Wm. J. Schmidt, 2507 W. North Ave. NY c. 1865
   d. "The Butcher Boy" Henry De Marsan's New Comic and Sentimental Singer's Journal, Issue 1, p. 16, NY, 1871
   e. "The Butcher Boy." Broadside by Henry J. Wehman, Song Publisher, No. 50 Chatham Street, New York City; c.1880.

F. Foolish Young Girl, or, Irish Boy ("What a foolish girl was I,") Roud 60
a. "The Irish Boy," Elizabeth St. Clair of Edinburgh, c.1770; Clark, The Mansfield Manuscript (2015) pp.4-6.
b. "The Maid's Tragedy," a broadside from St. Bride's Printing Library S447 (my ref BS 1900), c1790.
c. "A New Love Song," Gil, No. 6, printed by Bart. Corcoran, Inn's Quay, Dublin c. 1774?
d. "The Irish Boy," a broadside, Poet's Box, 80 London Street, Glasgow, c. 1872
e. "Sailor Boy," sung by Georgina Reid of Aberdeenshire, about 1882 Duncan C
f."Foolish Young Girl" From John Strachan, of Strichen, b. 1875 heard the song as a child. His mother used to sing it, c. 1885.
g, "Student Boy," sung by W. Wallace of Aberdeenshire about September, 1908 Duncan B
h. "Foolish Young Girl," sung by Jean Elvin, Turriff, 1952- recorded by Hamish Henderson. From "Tocher: Tales, Songs, Tradition" - Issue 43 - Page 41, 1991.
i. "The Young Foolish Girl," sung by Jeannie Hutchison, Traditional Music from the Shetland Isles (online) SA1974.13.3

G. Queen of Hearts ("The Queen of Hearts and the Ace of sorrow") Roud 3195
a. "The Queen of Hearts" Pitts Printer; Wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse 6, Great St. Andrew street; 7 Dials, London- c.1820
b. "The Queen of Hearts" Wright, Printer, 113, Moor-Street, Birmingham c. 1833
c. "Queen of Hearts" Collected Baring-Gould as sung by a workman engaged on the Burrow-Tor reservoir at Sheepstor, the water supply for Plymouth, 1894

H. The Darling Rose ("My love he is a false love,"); an imitation of a minstrel version.
a. "The Darling Rose," a broadside (GPB 585) Air- Beauty and the Beast; October 4, 1851

I. "There is a Tavern in the Town" by William H. Hills, 1883. ("There is a tavern in the town") Roud 18834
a. "There Is a Tavern in the Town" from 1883 edition of William H. Hill's Student Songs. Also R. Marsh songbook od similar date published Marsh & Co., St. James's Walk, Clerkenwell, London.
b. "Randoo, Randoo, Randoo" which has the chorus of "There is a Tavern" which should pre-date 1883. Earliest print is circa 1883 in R. Marsh songbook published Marsh & Co., St. James's Walk, Clerkenwell, London. Also W. S. Fortey's "The Popular Songster" and W. S. Fortey's "Yankee Barnum's Songster" [no date given] and in the 1888 fictional book, "The Right Honourable": A Romance of Society and Politics, by McCarthy and Campbell-Praed; published by D. Appleton and Company.
c. "Tavern in the Town" by F. J. Adams, 1891.
d. "The Drunkard Song." Rudy Vallee, 1934

J. Maiden's Prayer ("She was a maiden young and fair") c.1918; Roud18828
a. The Soldier's Love- sung by Fred Cottenham (Kent) c.1925
b. Maiden's Prayer- Airman's Song Book, p126 by C Ward Jackson and Leighton Lucas, dated c. 1933.
d. "All You Maidens Sweet and Kind." From Hamish Henderson's "Ballads of World War II" (Caledonian Press, Glasgow, 1947). Recorded (almost) verbatim on Ewan MacColl's "Bless 'em All and Other British Army Songs" (Riverside, 1959).
e. Maiden's Prayer- sung by Doreen Cross of Hessle, East Riding, Yorkshire in 1974. From "An East Riding Songster," 1982 by Steve Gardham.
f. Sailor Boy- sung by Tony Ballinger of Brockworth. Recorded by Gwilym Davies, Upton St. Leonards, Gloucestershire on 14 April, 1977; Gwilym Davies Collection.

* * * *

Only a small number of ballads have been added under each letter (only B is nearly complete) but it's clear what the ballads are. So far I've finished around 200 UK ballads and about 80 US/Canada variants. These are available under "British & other versions" and "US & Canada versions." The UK versions are nearly complete although some are missing.

Since these ballads are also related to a number of different ballads, I've begun separate studies of each one- the following ballads/songs are ones that I've started and as of today several are finished or I've written at least part of the headnotes:

7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William (Soldier Boy; Sweet William; Pinery Boy; Early, Early in the Spring)
7B. Love Has Brought Me to Despair (Constant Lady; Love Has Brought Me to Despair; False Lover;)
7C. Sheffield Park-- Roud 860 ("The Unfortunate Maid;" "The Young Man of Sheffield Park;" "In Yorkshire Park" )
7D. Every Night When The Sun Goes In (Every Night When The Sun Goes Down)
7E. Will Ye Gang Love, or, Rashy Muir (Rashie Moor; Rashy Moor)
7F. My Blue-Eyed Boy (Bring Back My Blue-Eyed Boy)
7G. Early, Early by the Break of Day (The Two Lovers; (broadside): A new song called William and Nancy or The Two Hearts)
7H. She's Like the Swallow (She's Like the Swallow; The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire)
7I. I Love You, Jamie (Foolish Young Girl)
7J. I Know my Love by his Way of Walking (I Know My Love)
7K. Love Is Teasing (Love Is Pleasing)
7L. Careless Love (Reckless Love, Loveless Love, Careless Love Blues)

* * * *

If you would like to be part of this thread, you may post a traditional Died for Love version with source or just make a comment. Thanks to Gwilym Davies who has sent me MP3s of several versions he's recorded. I am also missing a number of versions which you may have access to. Posting them would help. I'll be bring missing versions up as we go.

We've talked about Careless Love briefly but I've added it as 7L. Clearly it's related to Died for Love. One question I have is from an online statement from Peggy Seeger's website:

Peggy Seeger says 'Careless Love' descends from an English song 'You've Been Careless Love,' and she sings it in 3/4 time or waltz rhythm.

What is this English song? And what are the UK variants that use the "Love, oh love, oh careless love" verse? Are there any?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 03:27 PM

Hi,

I'd like to find any UK versions that are not Died For Love that have the "Careless Love" text. The following may better explain the ballad and what I need as a UK example--here's an excerpt from my headnotes:

[This famous song has been adapted by a number of singers of different genres (folk, blues, jazz, country, pop) of music in the US and abroad. The song is identified by this stanza which is sometimes used as its chorus:

Love, oh love, oh careless love,
Love, oh love, oh careless love,
Love, oh love, oh careless love,
Oh look what careless love has done.

Although a number of floating stanzas have been attached to Careless Love and in some versions its identifying stanza and theme have been lost, this song/ballad was either derived from or is similar to "The Died for Love Songs" and in particular the "apron" stanzas relating to the maid's pregnancy as found in the "Brisk Young Lover," "Alehouse" and "I Wish, I Wish" songs.

It's clear "what careless love has done." The maid is pregnant and bewails her pregnant condition. If she'd have listened to what mama said, she would be sleeping in Mama's bed[]. Instead she must face the stigma associated with being an unwed mother- not a happy proposition either in Scotland or rural Appalachia. As in the Died for Love songs she faces the prospect of being abandoned. Here's a stanza sung by Miss Grace Hahn, Fayetteville, Arkansas, 1941[]:

Go hand me down my old valise,
And bundle up my dirty clothes,
And if my momma asks about me
Just tell her I'm sleeping out of doors.

Many of the standard Careless Love stanzas directly correspond to those found in the Died for Love songs. It's already clear that the "apron" stanzas are related. Now consider these other stanza from Mrs. Lillian Short, Galena, MO, 1942:

Ain't this enough to break my heart, (3 times)
To see my man with another sweetheart? [He takes another girl on his knee]

Now my money's spent and gone (3 times) [She has more gold than I]
You pass my door a-singing a song.

Oh I love my mamma and my papa too (3 times) [I'd leave my mother, I'd leave my father]
But I'd leave them both and go with you.

Naturally, different blues type lyrics have become attached to Careless Love that are not part of the fundamental song. By the 1920s the stanzas about pregnancy were being replaced and other floating stanzas were added:

I wish that eastbound train would run
I wish that eastbound train would run
I wish that eastbound train would run
And carry me back where I come from

Times ain't like they used to be
Times ain't like they used to be
Times ain't like they used to be
Carry me back to Tennessee.

This is especially true of many of the early country texts by Riley Puckett and others. The song then becomes a song with the Careless Love stanza and floating "blues" or "abandonment" type lyrics. Even more confusing is when the floating lyrics are from other similar songs as in this stanza from Perrow (MS of 1909, Mississippi Whites):

I'm going to leave you now;
I'm going ten thousand miles.
If I go ten million more,
I'll come back to my sweetheart again.

These lyrics are from "Ten Thousand Miles" a different song, with a similar sentiment. Careless Love is listed as Roud 422 and unfortunately a number of different songs are also part of Roud 422. This is not a lament about "turtle doves" or "lonesome doves" leaving their mate or about a lover "leaving and going away."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 04:41 PM

Hi,

Aunt Molly Jackson of Kentucky obviously thought these two songs were woven from the same cloth. In the 1930s Jackson sang the words to "Butcher's Boy" with the melody of "Careless Love" which was recorded by Lomax. Listen: https://lomaxky.omeka.net/items/show/59 Each two lines of Jackson's "Butcher Boy" makes a stanza- so it takes twice as long to sing!!!

The following stanzas are similar to the Appalachian lyrics my female singer sang in my bluegrass group in the early 1990s:

Careless Love

Love, oh love, my careless love,
Love, oh love, my careless love.
Love, oh love, oh careless love,
Oh look what careless love has done.

Once I wore my apron low,
Once I wore my apron low.
Once I wore my apron low,
I could not keep you from my door.

Now my apron strings won't pin,
Now my apron strings won't pin.
Now my apron strings won't pin,
You pass my door and won't come in.

I love my mama and papa, too,
I love my mama and papa, too.
I love my mama and papa, too,
I'd leave them just to go with you.

When I die, don't bury me deep;
When I die, don't bury me deep,
When I die, don't bury me deep,
Place a marble rock at my head and feet.

Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove,
Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove,
Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove,
For to show to the world I died for love.

We also did a version with floating lyrics that I sang with,

Sorrow, sorrow to my heart (3X)
Since I and my true love did part.

Oh I wish that train would come (3X)
And carry me back where I come from.

, &etc. with Careless love as first verse and chorus.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 06:54 PM

Hi,

Lastly-- I'll be adding to my headnotes of Careless Love before moving on. Here is a link http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7l-careless-love.aspx to the rough draft with a close-up of a painting I did of Careless Love about 10 years ago-- it depicts a young pregnant girl standing in the doorway on the porch of a cabin in Appalachia. Before her is a large hound dog sleeping and beside her is her father-- whittling. Her lover, who just passes by but doesn't stop in, is confronted by her mother who stands on the porch-- waving a shotgun! The close-up is poor resolution so it looks fuzzy but you get the point.
There are other scenes in the full-view of the painting but they are hidden- I've done about 36 song paintings which can be viewed here: http://mattesonart.com/careless-love.aspx Several of the paintings are displayed at the KY Music Hall-of-Fame.

Comments and different versions are welcome. Anything that can relate the identifying stanza

Love, oh love, oh careless love,
Love, oh love, oh careless love,
Love, oh love, oh careless love,
Oh look what careless love has done.

to a version in the UK would be appreciated,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:50 PM

Hi,

Great news!!! I finally got the Leach ballad, Beam of Oak. His book, "Folk Ballads and Songs of the Lower Labrador Coast" (by MacEdward Leach) came in the mail today. Beam of Oak was mentioned in the Died for Love first thread (see link above- closed thread). It is an excellent traditional version of B, similar to the broadside-- "Cruel Father or Deceived Maid." This is one of only three extant traditional versions that are reasonably close to the original.

Beam of Oak - Sung by Stuart Letto of Lance au Clair, Labrador in July, 1960.

1. A farmer's daughter, you may understand,
She fell in love with a servant man.
And when her father came this to hear,
He separated her from her dear.

2. We haven't been scarce three days at sea,
When they fell into a bloody fray.
It was this young man's lot to fall;
He lost his life by a cannon ball.

3. Scarce three days after, this young man was seen;
His deathly ghost to her father came,
With his deadly wounds by his bedside stood,
With his arms and shoulders all covered with blood.

4. So when this lady came this to hear,
How she had lost her own true dear,
That very night to the beam of oak
She hung herself with her own bed rope.

5. Her father he came home late that night,
Inquiring for his own heart's delight,
He went upstairs and the door he broke;
He found her hanging to the beam of oak.

6. The servants, they all gathered round,
All for to cut this fair maiden down,
And in her bosom there was concealed
A written note of true loves revealed.

7. It was wrote with blood by a woman's hand.
She wrote these words, as you may understand.
Saying, "Father father the worst of men,
Twas you that brought me to this untimely end.

8. "You sent my Willie away from me,
Which caused my ruin and his destiny."
Her father, he did speechless remain,
And the tears ran down his cheeks like rain.

9. Her father, so we are told, went mad;
Her mother being almost as bad;
May this sad tale now a warning be
Of this sad, doleful sad, tragedy.

This is the title of The Traditional Ballad Index entry which gives Roud 18830 as the Roud number. According to Steve Gardham, Roud 18830 is Rambling Boy, a different ballad with the same ending (suicide). If you look at Roud 18830 only two versions are Cruel Father (Beam of Oak and Rambling Boy- the cowboy song of c. 1916). Apparently Rambling Boy and Cruel Father have not been separated yet, or some confusion exists, which is typical of the Died for Love ballads. As far as I know, I have every version of "Cruel Father"-- all 19 versions-- except most of them are very corrupt. If you remember in the Died for Love II thread (link above- closed) I posted an old Hicks/Harmon version from Rebecca Harmon that could date back to the 1700s in Virginia. Harmon's version is typical of most US versions- it's very corrupt. There is not actually a Roud number for Beam of Oak (assuming Roud 18830 is Rambling Boy) but Steve Gardham told me to use Roud 23272. So I'm petitioning the brilliant Steves (Gardham and Roud) to get this str8ened out!!!!

The "beam of oak" is what the daughter ties the rope upon which she uses to hang herself. The suicide by hanging and the similar opening is what ties this variant to Rambling Boy and some other Died for Love songs. The suicide, for example, is also found in Foolish Young Girl. The plot of Cruel Father is this: A father finds out his daughter has fallen in love with an apprentice and presses the young man to become a sailor aboard a man-o'-war. Soon after going to sea, the sailor is killed in battle by a cannonball. That very night the sailor's ghost haunts the father. Shortly thereafter the father comes home and finds his daughter "hanging from a rope." After he cuts her down he finds a note on her breast calling him the worst of all men. Only the Queen of Hearts shares this plot, but in the Queen of Hearts the plot is only two stanzas added at the end- as an afterthought.

It seems possible that Cruel Father is the progenitor of the Rambling Boy which is the same ballad without a distinct plot and uses floating Died for Love stanzas. In Rambling Boy the girl's suicide is the result of her unrequited love.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 08:41 PM

Hi,

The only other variant that could possibly be related, is this odd version found in "Folksongs of Florida," Morris, 1950. Morris identifies this as a variant of "Butcher Boy" by the melody and a few related stanzas.
Mrs. G. A. Griffin, an outstanding informant for both Morris and Lomax, was born in 1863 in Georgia. By the time she was thirteen she learned the bulk of her older ballads from her father, John Hart, who was a fiddler. This is therefore dated pre-1877 -- the date when she left her father and moved to Florida.
In my opinion this too is an unusual rendition of the "Cruel Father" (see last post) sung from the man's point of view. The plot would be similar: When the lovers were discovered her father presses the young man to sea where he must spend his "wretched life" with out his lover. He utters the famous Died for Love ending. Suddenly, he is visited by his true love (this could be a dream sequence or it has simply turned into a "night visit" ballad and he is a ghost). He pledges, "I love her now until I die."
This is all speculative. Since the song by its melody and text is placed as a version of Butcher Boy by Morris and it has the cannonball reference, it makes some sense. Morris says that the song has, "an existence of its own," however, he doesn't have an idea what that could be.

67. BETSY, MY DARLING GIRL
(Archive 956-81).

"Betsy, My Darling Girl." Recorded on March 19, 1937, from the singing of Mrs. G. A. Griffin, Newberry, Florida, learned from her father in Georgia by 1877-- with music.

1. I'm going up yonder to yonders town,
Where the cannon balls flash round and round,
And there I'll spend my days and years
My weeks, my months, my wretched life.

2. I called for a chair to seat myself upon,
And a pen and ink to write her name down,
And every line I shed a tear
For Betsy, O Betsy, my darling girl.

3. So dig my grave both steep and deep,
And marble stones at my head and feet,
And on my breast put a snow white dove
To show the world I died for love.

4. Who's at my gate, that darling girl?
Who's at my gate, that darling girl?
Who's at my gate, my own true love?
I love her now until I die.

5. Come in, my own true love,
Come in, come my darling girl;
Come in, come my own true love,
For I love you now until I die.

6. O give to me your lily-white hand,
O give to me both your heart and hand.
She gave to me her lily-white hand,
For I love her now until I die.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 05:01 PM

Hi,

Moving on to other related songs/ballads. We haven't covered Sailor Boy or Sweet William which borrows from Died for Love and other songs.

One other song is "The Colour of Amber." A similar stanza is also known famously as "Black is the Color/Colour." A single version of three stanzas (with one Died for Love stanza) was collected in the UK by Mike Yates in 1974. A number of Newfoundland versions use the title which are unique variants of Sailor Boy (divergent plot some similar stanzas):

The Colour Of Amber (MacEdward Leach)

Oh, the colour of amber is my love's hair,
And her rosy cheeks do my heart ensnare;
Her ruby lips so meek and mild,
Ofttimes have pressed them to those of mine.

and here's a stanza from NC collected by Sharp from William Wells:

2 Yellow was the colour of my true love's hair,
Cheeks was like a lily fair.
If he returns it'll give me joy;
Never love any but a sweet soldier boy.

This 1916 version is a variant of Sweet William. The question is: should these be part of the ballads related to Died for Love?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 05:32 PM

Hi,

To consider which to include, let's look at both. Roud lumps them - he gives both versions, Mary Ann Haynes UK version and the Newfoundland versions as Roud 1716 when they are different songs that share a similar first stanza.

"The Colour of Amber" sung by Mary Ann Haynes in 1974 (on Voice 11):
   
Oh, the colour of amber was my love's hair,
And his two blue eyes they enticed me,
And his ruby lips, they being soft and fine,
Oh, many a time they've been pressed to mine.
   
Oh, I'll go a-fishing in yonder's brook
There I'll catch my love with a line and a hook,
And if he loves me, oh, like I love him,
No man on earth shall part us two.

Now, I wish, I wish, now this is all in vain.
Oh, I wish to God I was a maiden again.
Oh, a maid again I shall never more be,
Whilst apples growed on a orange tree.

This has one stanza of Died for Love and the first stanza is found similarly in a relative- Sailor Boy. here's one of several Newfoundland versions.

The Colour Of Amber- Collected in 1951 from Nicholas (Nick) Davis of St Shott's, NL, by MacEdward Leach. This is a variant of "Early, Early in the Spring" which is Laws M1, Roud #152:

Oh, the colour of amber is my love's hair,
And her rosy cheeks do my heart ensnare;
Her ruby lips so meek and mild,
Ofttimes have pressed them to those of mine.

As I sailed down the London Shore,
Where the loud cannon balls they roar,
In the midst of danger ofttimes I've been,
Ofttimes I have thought on you, Mary Green.

As I sailed down the London Shore,
I kept writing letters o'er and o'er;
I kept writing letters to you, my dear,
Out of all of them I received but one.

If you wrote letters back to this town,
Out of all of them I received but one;
You're false, oh, false love is none of mine,
Don't speak so hard of a sailmaker.

Straightway I went to her father's house,
And it's on this fair maid I did call;
Her father spoke me this reply,
Sayin', daughter dear, don't you love the boy.

I asked this father what he did mean,
Or would his daughter married be,
To some other young man to be a wife,
For I will go farther and take a life.

Now since my love has a man received,
A single life I will still remain;
I will plough the seas till the day I die,
I will split the waves till 'neath them I lie.

Very different songs with a similar first stanza. The Newfoundland version, a variant of "Early, Early in the Spring" which is Laws M1, Roud #152, is curiously similar to the Georgia version "Betsy, My Darling Girl"-- which is one thing that attracted me to the song. Although "The Colour of Amber" (Black is the Colour) stanza with variation appears in some versions of Sailor Boy, the Newfoundland ballad, "The Colour of Amber" has a different plot. See: "Early, Early in the Spring" Laws M1, Roud #152 for details.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 11:41 AM

Hi,

I started the headnotes of Sailor Boy/Sweet William but left them, here's a link: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7a-the-sailor-boy-or-sweet-william.aspx

The Died for Love stanzas are found only in traditional versions. Here are two good examples from the UK in the late 1800s:

Sweet William- Collected by Lucy Broadwood from Mrs Harley, Bewdley, 1893

O father, father, build me a boat,
That on this wild ocean I may float,
And every ship that I chance to meet
I will enquire for my William sweet.

I had not sailed more than half an hour,
Before I met with a man on board (man of war?)
"Kind captain, captain, come tell me true,
Is my sweet William on board with you?"

"Oh no, fine lady, he is not here,
That he is drown-ed most breaks my fear,
For the other night when the wind blew high
That's when you lost your sweet sailor boy."

I'll set me down, and I write a song,
I'll write it neat, and I'll write it long,
And at every word I will drop a tear,
And in every line I'll set my Willie dear.

I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain,
I wish I was a sweet maid again,
But a maid, a maid I never shall be
Till apples grow on an orange tree.
For a maid, a maid, I shall never be,
Till apples grow on an orange tree.

* * * *

"Early, Early All in the Spring." Sung by Mrs Hollings, originally from Lincolnshire (c.1870?); collected by Frank Kidson; published in JFSS, 2 (1906), 293–4.

Early, early all in the spring,
My love was press'd to serve the King ;
The wind blew high and the wind blew low,
And parted me and my young sailor boy.

"O father, father, make me a boat,
That on the ocean I may float,
And every [French, fresh, king's] ship as I pass by,
I will enquire for my sailor boy."

She had not sailed far across the deep,
Before five king's ships she chanced to meet,
"Come, jolly sailors, come tell me true—
Does my love sail in along with you?"

"What clothes does your true love wear?
What colour is your true love's hair?"
"A blue silk jacket, all bound with twine;
His hair is not the colour of mine."

"Oh no fair lady, your love's not here—
He has got drown'd, I greatly fear;
For on yon ocean as we passed by,
'Twas there we lost a young sailor-boy."

She wrung her hands, and tore her hair,
Like some lady in deep despair,
Saying "Happy, happy is the girl," she cried,
"Has got a true love down by her side."

She set her down and wrote a song—
She wrote it wide, she wrote it long;
At every line she shed a tear,
And at every verse she said "My dear."

When her dear father came home that night,
He called for his heart's delight;
He went upstairs, the door he broke,
He found her hanging by a rope.

He took a knife and cut her down;
Within her bosom a note was found,
And in this letter these words were wrote:
"Father, dear father, my heart is broke.

Father, dear father, dig me a grave—
Dig it wide and dig it deep;
And in the middle put a lily-white dove,
That the world may know I died for love."

* * * *

The broadsides and Christie's "Sailing Trade" have no stanzas in common with Died for Love songs. Here's a short list of broadsides-- maybe Steve Gardham can add to this and provide an early print date:

1. Sailor Boy ("Down by a crystal river side") printed by Pitts c. 1820.
2. Sailor Boy and his Faithful Mary ("A sailor's life is a merry life") printed J. Harkness, printer, Preston: Printed at 121, Church-street; between 1840 and 1866 and also by Pitts.
3. A New Song call'd the Young Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her True Love ("'Tis early, early all in the Spring") printed c.1867 by P. Brereton, 1, Lower Exchange St., Dublin.
4. The Sailor Boy and his Faithful Nancy, a Catnach broadside--Harvard College, 25242.17, vii, 198.
5. The Young Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her True Love ("'Tis early, early all in the Spring") printed by James Guthrie, Illustrated by Jack Yeats, 1909 County Dublin.

The "Colour of Amber" or "Black is the Colour" stanza is the maid's response to the question 'What did her sailor boy look like?' (see 4th stanza of "Early, Early" above) after she hails a ship in search of her sailor boy.

The other stanza in common with Died for Love that's not as obvious is the "writing a letter/note (or song)" stanza which the maid does after she learns her sailor boy has drowned. This is similar to the writing of the note by the maid before she hangs herself in the Died for Love songs such as Cruel Father, Rambling Boy, Butcher Boy and Maiden's Prayer.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 01:10 PM

Hi Richie,
You will probably know from your many Child Ballads you have studied that the letter writing motif is extremely common in both Child Ballads and broadside ballads. It should not be taken as an indicator of borrowing or relation unless there is more text in common.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:01 PM

Hi

Steve, glad you're back. In this case its the position of "letter writing" stanza in the ballad (before she dies) that creates a commonality. A number of writers including Malcom Douglas (on Mudcat) have pointed out this 'letter writing' stanza as a common stanza between Died for Love and Sailor Boy. I guess it seemed obvious to me. Do you want further evidence?

Steve, do you have any early broadsides of Sailor Boy not listed by me? Are there any Sailor Boy broadsides with stanzas of Died for Love?

By the way I created a study of "The Colour of Amber" on my site: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7m-the-coulor-of-amber.aspx It will include the Sailor Boy/Black is the Colour relationships as well as the two different songs titled "Colour of Amber".

Still plugging away,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:24 PM

Have you got the Mississippi 1909 version of Careless Love from JAFL?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:37 PM

Do you have this unique piece from the Gardiner manuscripts?

Through Lonesome Woods (Roud 3461) On the EFDSS website it is ref. GG/1/20/1304

The last line of st 1 and all of st 2 are from the alehouse stanza, and stanza 3 appears to be an echo of stanza 3 in 'She's Like the Swallow'. The rest seems to be unique, unless you can trace any of it. To me it looks like a garbled made up piece from half remembered fragments.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:45 PM

In all of my searches through collections I have never come across anything in the British Isles that relates to the Careless Love stanza. I was singing this song back in the early 60s before I became fully immersed in English trad song so I would have spotted anything had I seen it and noted it down. Personally I would treat Peggy's comments in the same vein as Bert's or Ewan's. Peggy was interested in singers and immediate sources but not really histories to the extent that we are.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:13 PM

Hi Steve,

I couldn't find any UK versions of Careless Love either, Steve. I do have Kelly's Love by Odum but it's in 1911 JAF- is that the version? I'll check out the Gardiner. TY.

Here's a version of Sailor Boy named Black is the Color:

BLACK IS THE COLOR- sung by a Missouri woman with a guitar; from a field recording in the possession of the late Bil Godsey, Champaign, Illinois before late 1950s

Chorus: Black, black is the color of my true love's hair,
His face is like some lily fair.
If ever he returns it will give me great joy,
For none can I love but my sweet sailor boy.

Oh Ma, oh Mother, go build me a boat
That I may on the ocean float,
And call to the ships as they pass by,
Tell me, pray, have you seen my sweet sailor boy.

She built her a boat on the deep, deep main,
And she spied three ships come out from Spain,
And she called to the captain as they passed by,
Tell me, pray, have you seen my sweet sailor boy?

Chorus.

"Oh no," said the captain, "That never can be,
"For your love was drowned in the deep salt sea,
"There off Rock Island as we passed by,
"It was there that we lost your sweet sailor boy."

She stove her boat into the rocks,
And I thought that the poor lady's heart was broke.
She wrung her hands and she tore her hair
Just like someone in deep despair.

Chorus.

Go dig me a grave both wide and deep,
Place a marble slab at my head and feet,
And on my breast place a mourning dove
To show to the world I died for love.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:49 PM

The JAFL version is from an article 'Songs and Rhymes from the South' by Perrow. p147 No3.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 04:18 PM

Sweet William/The Sailor Boy (Roud 273). The earliest I have appears to be the Goggin of Limerick starting 'It was early in spring' of about 1780 but there seems to have been a variety of versions by c1800. Here's a summary of broadside versions I have access to.

The Sailor Boy/The Sailing Trade usually with 9 sts later 8, fl 'The sailing trade is a weary life/trade', Robertson printed it in 1801 and there is a version in Ashton's 'Real Sailor Songs' p63, Johnston, Falkirk also printed it about the same time. In 1817 Hutchinson of Glasgow.

The Sailor Boy, Goggin, with 7 sts 'It was early in Spring' Brereton's you have and then a 9 sts version with no imprint 'The Constant Lover and her Salior Boy' 'Early early all in the spring' (Irish)

Sailor Boy/ The Maid's Lament for her Sailor Boy fl, 'Down by a chrystal riverside' 7 sts as you have it, printed by Evans, Pitts and Catnach.

Then the later Harkness which you have with 8 sts.

I'll check the Goggin but I think you have versions of all the others.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 04:34 PM

Before you ask here's Goggin.

It was early in Spring
I went on board to serve the King,
The raging seas and the winds blew high,
That parted me and my sailor boy.

I wish I had a little boat
That o'er the Ocean I might float,
To watch the French as I pass by,
Inquiring for my Sailor boy.

We had not Sailed but an hour or two
When she beheld the whole ships crew.
My whole ships crew tell unto me
If my sweet William is on board with thee.

Your sweet William he don't sail hear
And for his loss we greatly fear.
On yon green Island as we passed by
It's there we lost your young sailor Boy.

She wrung her hands and she tore her hair,
Like a fair maiden in deep despair,
her boat she flung against the rocks
Crying what shall I do since my true love's lost.

I'll tell my dream to the hills high;
And all the small birds as they fly,
Ah, happy, happy is the girl she cried,
That has her true-love by her side.

Come all ye seamen now dress in blue
And all you ladies dress in the same,
From the Cabbin boy to the main mast high,
And mourn in black for my sailor boy.

I don't recognise the first 2 lines of stanza 6 and any of stanza 7. The whole definitely smacks of having been taken from oral tradition. There is a very strong likelihood of earlier printings going back at least to about 1770. There is absolutely nothing to suggest the original was Irish.

When I get time I'll do a mini study of all the broadsides, but I need to have a much more detailed look at the 2 Rambling Boy pieces first. Could you please let me have a copy of the 'The Rambling Boy and Answer'? My Robertson copy is difficult to decipher in places


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:27 PM

Hi,

I do have the Perrow version and the three JAF articles he wrote on my site. After Perrow left Harvard he eventually ended up teaching in Missouri, then Mississippi (in 1909) then to Louisville, KY where he taught English.   

3. CARELESS LOVE (From Mississippi; country whites; MS. of R. J. Slay; 1909.)

I'm going to leave you now;
I'm going ten thousand miles.
If I go ten million more,
I'll come back to my sweetheart again.

Love, oh, love! 'tis careless love {twice)
You have broken the heart of many a poor boy,
But you will never break this heart of mine.*

I cried last night when I come home {twice)
I cried last night and night before;
I'll cry to-night; then I'll cry no more.

Who will shoe your pretty feet?
And who will glove your hand?
Who will kiss your red rosy cheeks?
When I am in that far-off land?

"Pa will shoe my pretty little feet;
Ma will glove my hand;
You may kiss my red rosy cheeks,
When you come from that far-off land."

This has a "True Lover's Farewell" stanza also in "Lonesome Dove"/"Ten Thousand Miles" and the floaters from Child 76 "Who will Shoe" which are also found in "My Blue Eyed Boy" variants. But this is not Child 76 :)

Thanks for the Sailor Boy broadsides, I knew to ck Robertson site but I hadn't yet. My earliest was the Pitts c. 1820. Still don't see any Died for Love stanzas from print. The Ashton 'Real Sailor Songs' has this stanza:

The colour of amber is my true love's hair,
His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare,
His ruby lips are soft, and with charms,
I'd fain lay a night in his lovely arms.

which is floating stanza related to the Black is the Color ballads. I still suspect Niles got his version from Sharp who collected it in 1916 and published it the next year.

I have a link to Roberston's "Rambling Boy with the answer"-- there are two editions online 1799 or 1803 and another by a different publisher that's online (pdf) as well (early 1800s). I haven't see the US versions from the early 1800s.

I can email a jpeg or give a link, let me know,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:38 PM

A link will be fine thanks, Richie.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:44 PM

Hi,

Steve and all, here's a link to Rambling Boy with the Answer: http://digital.nls.uk/chapbooks-printed-in-scotland/pageturner.cfm?id=108856194&mode=fullsize This is a fairly clean copy.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:52 PM

Thanks, Richie.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 09:19 PM

Hi,

I assume this is the earliest broadside of The Sailing Trade, a similar text with tune was given by Christie in 1876. This may be the first print with the "colour of amber" stanza. From "Four Excellent New Songs," Edinburgh. Printed by J. Morren about 1800.

The Sailing Trade.

THE sailing trade is a weary trade;
It's rob'd me of my heart's delight,
And left me here in tears to mourn,
Still waiting for my love's return.

Like one distracted this fair maid ran,
For pen and paper to write a song:
And at every line[1] she dropt a tear,
Crying, Alas! for my Billy dear.

Thousands, thousands all in a room.
My love he carries the brightest bloom;
He surely is some chosen one,
I will have him, or I'll have none.

The grass does grow on every lea,
The leaf doth fall from every tree;
How happy that small bird doth cry,
That[2] has her true love buy her lie.

The colour of amber is my true love's hair,
His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare,
His ruby lips are soft, and with charms,
I've lain many a night in his lovely arms.

Father, father, build me a boat,
That on the ocean I may float;
And at every ship that doth pass by,
I may enquire for my sailor boy.

She had not sail'd long on the deep,
Till a man of war she chanc'd to meet,
O sailor, send send me word.
If my true love Will be on board.

Your true love William is not here,
For he is kill'd and so I fear;
For the other day as we pass'd[3] by,
We seed him list in the Victory,

At the first ship that she did meet,
She did enquire for her Willie sweet;
They told her that just the other day,
They had lost a brave young sailor boy.

She wrung her hands and tore her hair,
Crying alas! my dearest dear,
And over board her body threw,
Bidding all worldly things adieu!

FINIS.

1. in this line "at" was misplaced.
2. spelled "Taht"
3. spelled "pase'd"


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 10:53 AM

That's a stanza longer than all the versions I have. Thanks for that, Richie, and for the heads up on the Scottish garlands. Gonna be busy for a few days going through these.

The extra verse is the penultimate one here.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 12:49 PM

Hi,

This is the "colour of Amber stanza" from the 1800 "Sailing Trade" that is the 1st stanza and identifying stanza in "Black is the Colour" as well as Mary Ann Haynes ballad collected by Mike Yates in 1974:

The colour of amber is my true love's hair,
His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare,
His ruby lips are soft, and with charms,
I've lain many a night in his lovely arms.

If you'll notice the last line is corrupt in later editions including Ashton's "Real Sailor Songs" of 1891:

The colour of amber is my true love's hair,
His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare,
His ruby lips are soft, and with charms,
I'd fain lay a night in his lovely arms.

* * * *

Here's the stanza is "The Colour Of Amber" (variant of Early, Early in the Spring--Laws M1 Roud #152) collected in 1951 from Nicholas (Nick) Davis of St Shott's, NL, by MacEdward Leach.

Oh, the colour of amber is my love's hair,
And her rosy cheeks do my heart ensnare;
Her ruby lips so meek and mild,
Ofttimes have pressed them to those of mine.

Here's the stanza (2nd stanza- I've given three stanzas) in a West Virginia version of Sailor Boy about 1901:

Way down on Moment's River side
The wind blew fair with gentle guide;
A pretty maid that sat and mourned;
"What shall I do? My true love's gone.

"His rosy cheeks, his coal-black hair,
Has drawn my heart all in a snare;
His ruby lips so soft and fine,
Ten thousand times I've thrust in mine.

"And if ten thousand were in a row,
My love would make the brightest show,
The brightest show of every one;
I'll have my love or I'll have none.

You'll notice the first stanza is from "Constant Lady" 1686 and is later used in the 1820 Pitts broadside-- it's "crystal river side" in 1686.

And last, here's the stanza collected by Cecil Sharp from Lizzie Roberts in North Carolina in 1916:

But black is the color of my true love's hair,
Her face is like some rosy fair.
The prettiest face and the neatest hands,
I love the ground whereon he stands.

* * * *

The oldest US version I've found is an MS from a soldier's diary from the Civil War. His name is William H. Landbeth and he was in Shelby's force in Missouri about 1864:

Heart-Rending Boat Ballad

1. father father bild Me a Boat
and pot it on the oason that I may float
her father was welthy he bilt her a Boat
an pot it on the oason that She Mite float
She Stopte on the Boat She eride out Goy
Now ll find my sweet salar Boy.

2. She handent Bin Snilcn far on the Main
She Spide three Ships come in from Spain
She hailed each captain as ho drew ni
An of him She did in quire of her swee Salar Boy.

3. Capttain Captain tell mo trew
if my sweet william is in your crew
Il tell you far lady II tell you My Dear
your Sweet William is not hoar.

4. At the head of rockeyilent as we past By
Will was taken Sick an tharo did die
She stove her boat a gains a rock
I thaut in my Soal her heart was Break
She rong her band She toar her hair
Jest like a lady in dis pair.

5. go bring me a Cher for to set on
a pen and ink for to set it down
at the end or ever line she dropt a tire
at the end of ever virs it was o My dire.

6. go dig my grave booth Wide an deep
poot a marvel Stone at ray head an feet
an on my breast you may corv a dove
too let the world no that I dido for love.

* * * *

Now I don't feel so bad about my spelling and typing :)

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 01:01 PM

Some versions of Sailor Boy are so different that they have no stanzas in common which usually means an early substantial rewrite.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 03:23 PM

Hi,

As I pointed out- and this is still bewildering-- all print versions of Sailor Boy/Sweet William have no stanzas in common with the Died for Love songs. The "colour of amber" stanza is common to the four songs I outlined in the last post but is a tangent. The only possible exception is the "For pen and paper to write a song" which is really a floater (as Steve pointed out) unless placed after she discovers her sailor boy is dead (missing) and before her suicide-- then it's a suicide note/song. It's still a weak connection.

However, traditional versions of Sailor Boy/Sweet William almost all have stanzas of Died for Love and several have the hanging suicide which means they are related to the Cruel Father/Rambling Boy/Butcher Boy/Maiden's Prayer group.

As pointed out in JFSS and other publications, similar melodies are used for both.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 06:10 PM

Commonplaces can and frequently do consist of groups of stanzas, e.g, the page boy messages in Child Ballads. The suicide sequence in all these songs is also of that type. In most cases many of the stanzas should be considered commonplaces. That doesn't stop us looking for relationships and probable evolutionary routes though.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 08:09 PM

Hi,

This is a simple explanation: the Died for Love ballads are similar in style, melody and theme to Sailor Boy/Sweet William. [A maid falls in love, is separated from her love, searches for him, finds he's dead and kills herself.] While singers were blending the two ballads, printers kept printing the same stock broadsides-- not taking tradition into account. Still it seems odd that a version with the added Died for Love stanzas was not printed. The ballad was popular in North America and UK and a number of traditional versions in the US date back to mid-1800s-- so it's been here long before that.

Unlike the Butcher Boy, its cousin, no prints were made in the US.

I'm posting this excellent version from Jim Cleveland of Brant Lake, New York collected by Gwilym Davies in 1998. Jim is the oldest son of Sara Cleveland (1905-1992) one of the outstanding ballad singers in the US. She got her repertoire from her Irish/Scottish family and local singers.

Butcher Boy-- sung by Jim Cleveland (b. 1924) of Brant Lake, New York about 14 February, 1998.

1. In Dublin City, where I did dwell
A butcher boy I loved full well,
He courted me, both night and day,
But with me now he will not stay.

2. When my apron was hanging low
My love would follow through rain or snow
But now my apron is to my knees
He'll pass me by as he knew not me.

3. Oh mother dear I feel so bad
I sometimes think I shall go mad;
O daughter dear do not grieve so,
For life is filled with pain and woe.

4. She went upstairs to make her bed,
And nothing to her mother said,
Her father came and the door he broke
He found her hanging to a rope.

5. He took his knife and cut her down
And on her bosom these words he found:
A foolish girl, I know am I
To hang myself for a butcher boy.

6. Must I go bound while he goes free,
Must I love a boy who won't love me?
Or must I live my life in shame,
And raise a child without a name?

7. Go dig my grave both wide and deep,
Place marble stones at my head and feet.
And on my breast lay a turtle dove
To show the world that I died for love.

The setting is Dublin and the "full well" in the second line place it in the UK as an old version. Although short, it's missing nothing and the sixth stanza is very powerful and heart-breaking. This was one of Jim's best ballads.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 10:31 PM

Hi,

Here's a version mentioned by Steve that is Roud 3461. It's sung from the male perspective and is clearly related although only one stanza is in common, stanza 2. There's one US ballad related to Died for Love from an unknown source usually sung from the male perspective, I'll introduce it later.

Dibden Town in stanza 2 is probably "Dibden Purlieu" is a village situated on the edge of the New Forest in Hampshire. Stanza 3 seems like it was plucked from "The Soldier's Return." The last stanzas have the feeling of the end of "Trees They Do Grow High" with life's passing of time.

Through Lonesome Woods- sung by Henry Perkes of Cadnam, Hampshire on October 20, 1908. Collected by Gardiner.

1. Through lonesome woods I took my way,
So dark, so dark, as dark can be.
Where leaves were shivering on every tree
Which don't you think 'twas grief to me.
        
2. As I was going up Dibden town
I saw my true love a-sitting down.
I saw her sitting on another man's knee,
Which don't you think 'twas grief for me.
        
3. I called my true love by her name,
Then up she rose and to me came.
I gave her kisses by one, two, three
But none so sweet as she gave me.        

4. Now the winter's gone, the summer's come,
The small birds from the nest is sprung.
I'll tell you plainly unto your face,
"You're not the young man that I love best."
        
5. Now the winter's gone, the summer's come,
The small birds from their nest is sprung
I'll neither borrow nor I'll lend
But I'll keep my heart for a better friend.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:06 PM

Hi,

Here's a version of Sailor Boy and Careless Love-- which was collected by my grandfather and is a result of his leading vocal music at Southern Music Vocal Camp at Banner Elk in the summer 1933. Mellinger Henry was a good collector but he couldn't write music, so he persuaded my grandfather to help him. That persuasion ended up becoming the first of his folk Music books, Beech Mountain Folk Songs and Ballads:

CARELESS LOVE- sung by Edward Tufts, Banner Elk, NC, July 15, 1933 from Beech Mountain Folk Songs and Ballads, M. Henry and M. Matteson.

"Captain, Captain, tell me true:
Does my Willie sail with you?"
No, oh no, he's not with me-
He got drowned in the deep blue sea."

Refrain: Love, O love, O careless love,
Love, O love, how can it be?
Love, O love, O careless love,
To love someone that don't love me.

Love, O love, O love divine.
Love, O love, O love divine.
Love, O love, O love divine,
Lucile, you know you'll never be mine.

Refrain

Hail that eaptain as he passes,
Hail that captain as he passes,
Hail that captain as he passes,
That's him, I have my Willie at last.

Refrain

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:54 PM

Hi,

There's a traditional version of "Sailing Trade" in Songs the Whalemen Sang by Gale Huntington dated 1847. The "colour of amber" stanza is a bit different:

That short blue jacket he used to wear
His rosy cheeks and his coal black hair
His lips as smooth as the velvet fine
Ten thousand times he has kissed mine.


A SAILOR'S TRADE IS A ROVING LIFE -From the log aboard the whaling ship, Elizabeth, port was New Bedford, Massachusetts 1847, Kendall repository.

A sailor's trade is a roving life
It's robbed me of my heart's delight
He has gone and left me awhile to mourn
But I can wait till he does return.

That short blue jacket he used to wear
His rosy cheeks and his coal black hair
His lips as smooth as the velvet fine
Ten thousand times he has kissed mine.

Come father build me a little boat,
That o'er the ocean I may float;
And every ship that I do pass by,
I will enquire for my sailor boy.

She had not sailed far o'er the deep[1]
Before a king's ship she chanced to meet,
Captain captain, send me word
Does my sweet William be on board?

Oh no fair lady William is not here
He's drowned or so I fear
On yon green island as we pass
Gives the last mark of your sailor boy.

She wrung her hands and tore her hair
Like some female in deep despair
And then her boat to the shore did run
Saying how can I live since my sailor's gone.

Come all ye women that dress in white
Come all ye men that take delight
Come haul your colors at half mast high
And help me to weep for my sailor boy.

I will sit down and write a song
I will write it both sweet and long
At every line I will drop a tear
At every verse: where is my dear.

Come dig me a grave both wide and deep
Place a marble stone at my head and feet
And on my breast a turtle dove
To let the world[2] know that I died for love.
__________________
Footnote:

1. water was spilled on the log and the next two stanzas read:


She had not sailed far o'er
Before a king's ship
Captain captain,
Does my sweet

Oh no fair
He's
On
Gives

2. MS missing "To let the world"

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Feb 17 - 03:29 PM

Possible alternatives for the missing lines:

Captain captain, come tell me true,
Does my sweet William sail among your crew/on board with you.

Oh no fair maiden, he is not here,
He's been drowned we greatly fear
On yon green island as we passed by
Gives us to think lies your sailor boy.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 17 - 04:07 PM

Thanks Steve,

You're good at filling in the blanks!!!

I wanted to point this out (I suspect Steve knew this already)-- the Sailor Boy stanza:

If there are thousands, thousands in a Room
My Love she carries the brightest Bloom;
Sure she is some chosen one,
I will have her, or Ill have none.

is taken from Picking Lilies/Unfortunate Swain which is also tied into Died for Love with this stanza:

Must I be bound, must she be free,
Must I love one that loves not me;
If I should act such a childish part
To love a Girl that will break my heart.

which has been adapted in various ways. Another stanza from Unfortunate Swain is used for "Deep in Love" which I consider a separate song. I think it's prudent now to look at the "Must I Go Bound?" songs and the use of "Must I Go Bound?" in Died for Love. Even Jim Cleveland's Butcher Boy (5 posts back) uses it to great advantage:

6. Must I go bound while he goes free,
Must I love a boy who won't love me?
Or must I live my life in shame,
And raise a child without a name?

I'll start working on it,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 17 - 04:27 PM

Hi,

Here's another use of Must I Go Bound? in the Butcher Boy. Frequently the last two lines of the standard stanza (Unfortunate Swain) are replaced. Also since most versions are sung from the female perspective, the stanza now appears:

Must I be bound and you go free?
Must I love one who ne'er loved me?
Why should I play such a childish part
To go after a boy who will break my heart?

This would be one way the standard stanza would be found in the Died for Love songs and their relatives. There are earlier broadsides with Must/Shall I Go Bound? but this is a standard stanza that has evolved from the mid-1700s.

Butcher Boy- sung by Spencer Moore of Chilhowie, Virginia with guitar; learned in 1925. Recorded by Gwilym Davies in 1997. Transcription R. Matteson, 2017.

[guitar intro]

In London City where I did dwell,
A butcher boy I loved so well,
He courted me, my life away,
And then with me he would not stay.

Must I go bound and you go free,
And love the boy who don't love me;
He takes another girl on his knee,
And he tells her things that he won't tell me.

[instrumental]

Go dig my grave both wide and deep
Place marble at my head and feet,
And on my breast a snow-white dove,
To show the world I died for love.

[instrumental]

Must I go bound and you go free,
And love the boy who don't love me
He takes another girl on his knee
And he tells her things that he won't tell me.

[instrumental]

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 17 - 04:37 PM

Hi,

Under the "Must I Go Bound" title are several Irish ballads/songs, one was published in 1909 and is only two stanzas (the first is repeated).

The second stanza appears in Martin Parker's "Distressed Virgin", 1629:

I put my finger to the bush,
thinking the sweetest Rose to find,
I prickt my finger to the bone,
and yet I left the rose behind.

It's also prominent in "Waly, Waly," and is found in later broadsides. This is from Herbert Hughes "Irish Country Songs" Volume I. 1909:

MUST I GO BOUND AND YOU GO FREE- Fragment of an old song from County Derry

Must I go bound and you go free,
Must I love the lass who wouldn't love me,
Was e'er I taught so poor a wit,
As to love the lass would break my heart.

I put my finger to the bush,
To pluck the fairest rose,
I pricked my finger to the bone,
Ah, but then I left the rose behind.

So must I go bound and you go free,
Must I love the lass who wouldn't love me,
Was e'er I taught so poor a wit,
As to love the lass would break my heart.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 17 - 05:59 PM

Hi,

One early use of "Must I Go Bound?" that is clearly related to the Died for Love songs is the broadside ballad titled "The Complaining Lover- A New Song" (ca. 1795, Madden Ballads). Here, the first three stanzas are particularly relevant:

1. Must I be bound that can go free,
Must I love one that loves not me.
Let reason rule thy wretched mind,
Altho' I wink I am not blind.

2. He loves another one he loves not me,
No cares he for my company,
He loves another I'll tell you why
Because she has more gold than I.

3. Gold will wast and Silver will flys,
In time she may have as little as I,
Had I but gold and Silver in store,
He would like me as he has done before.

Stanzas 2 and 3 are found similarly in Nelly's Constancy of c1686 but the "The Complaining Lover" stanzas are clearly stanzas found in Brisk Young Lover/Alehouse followed by a stanza with "Must I go Bound?"-- which links both.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 17 - 07:04 PM

Hi,

I finally wrote about 4 pages of my "Must I Go Bound?" headnotes: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7o-must-i-go-bound.aspx

This paragraph from my headnotes (rough draft) sums up some of the confusion:

"Must I Go Bound" is associated with and used in the Died for Love songs, particularly "Brisk Young Lover," "Alehouse" and "Butcher Boy." It is also associated with and found in some songs in the related song family such as "My Blue Eyed Boy" and "Love is Teasing." However, since it is part of the Unfortunate Swain broadside it is also used in the ballads and songs associated with that broadside which include "Seeds of Love," "Waly, Waly" and "Deep in Love."

Comments welcome,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 17 - 09:17 PM

Hi,

I was just looking as Kidson's "I am a Rover":

"O, am I bound or am I free?
Or am I bound to marry thee?
A married life you soon shall see,
A contented mind is no jealousy."

which has a different take 'Or am I bound' and there's a broadside. Steve-- what is the date of the broadsides "The Rover" Roud 1112 ?

Anyway, the next stanza is from Rashy Moor/Muir the Scottish song:

As I crossed over Dannamore," [yon dreary moor/rashy moor]
There I lost sight of my true love's door;
My heart did ache, my eyes went blind,
As I thought of the bonny lass I'd left behind.

And it has a stanza from Sailor Boy and Died for Love (I Wish)- talk about floaters. Because it's printed (prob. later part 1800s) I have to include it (and should) as a separate ballad (of floaters!!!) So with the marriage theme in stanza 1, is that "Yon Green Valley"?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 17 - 10:59 PM

Hi,

Steve and all, I'm signing off for the day. I did finish:
7M. The Colour of Amber--http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7m-the-colour-of-amber.aspx

7N. Through Lonesome Woods-- http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7n-through-lonesome-woods.aspx

I also wrote 5 pages of Must I Go Bound and added I am a Rover (The Rover)

This is where I am so far:

7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William (Soldier Boy; Sweet William; Pinery Boy; Early, Early in the Spring)
7B. Love Has Brought Me to Despair (Constant Lady; Love Has Brought Me to Despair; False Lover;)
7C. Sheffield Park-- Roud 860 ("The Unfortunate Maid;" "The Young Man of Sheffield Park;" "In Yorkshire Park" )
7D. Every Night When The Sun Goes In (Every Night When The Sun Goes Down)
7E. Will Ye Gang Love, or, Rashy Muir (Rashie Moor; Rashy Moor)
7F. My Blue-Eyed Boy (Bring Back My Blue-Eyed Boy)
7G. Early, Early by the Break of Day (The Two Lovers; (broadside): A new song called William and Nancy or The Two Hearts)
7H. She's Like the Swallow (She's Like the Swallow; The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire)
7I. I Love You, Jamie (Foolish Young Girl)
7J. I Know my Love by his Way of Walking (I Know My Love)
7K. Love Is Teasing (Love Is Pleasing)
7L. Careless Love (Reckless Love, Loveless Love, Careless Love Blues)
7M. The Colour of Amber (Color of Amber;)
7N. Through Lonesome Woods
7O. Must I Go Bound?
7P. I am a Rover (The Rover) Roud 1112
7Q. Deep in Love (Deep as the Love I'm In)

I'm getting ready to start Deep in Love. I have Deep in Love originating with "The Sea-mans leave taken of his sweetest Margery" circa 1629 (Second Part). I think Deep in Love should be different than "Must I Go Bound" which covers a lot more territory - that's just my opinion. It's okay to have both stanzas in the same version- since that's how they appear in broadsides. I just think they are autonomous.
I've looked at Baring Gould (the problem) and briefly RV Williams ballads online. Maybe you can provide more evidence. I haven't seen anyone using "The Sea-mans leave taken of his sweetest Margery" circa 1629 (Second Part) as a source. I need to review when I'm not tired.

All the best,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Feb 17 - 09:41 AM

Hi,

"I am Rover" (Roud 1112) has a nice illustration and the headnotes are nearly done: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7p-i-am-a-rover-the-rover.aspx

Steve-- here's what I have for Deep in Love, I haven't looked through my notes. Obviously it appears in Unfortunate Swain/Picking Lilies (with Must I Go Bound) around 1750 and is part of Waly, Waly.

Since I have it just after 1626 in "The Sea-mans leave taken of his sweetest Margery" printed for Francis Coles, I consider it to be different and inserted just as most of the stanzas in Waly/Unfortunate Swain are. Certainly most of the stanzas have their own identity. Here's the stanza from second part:

Man.
I have seaven Ships upon the Sea,
and are all laden to the brim;
I am so inflamd with love to thee,
I care not whether they sinke or swim.

The other stanza which is relevant is:

Maid.
If I had wist before I had kist,
that Love had been so deare to win;
My heart I would have closd in Gold,
and pinnd it with a Silver pin.

I have some more notes somewhere. I'll start working on it,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Feb 17 - 11:50 AM

Hi,

Here's the ballad from the horse's mouth- the originator of the title, "Deep in Love"- Sabine Baring Gould. It was published in his Songs And Ballads Of The West (1891). Baring-Gould did a study of the ballad as we can see from his detailed MS notes. Here's what he published in 1891:

LXXXVI. Deep in Love. This very curious song was obtained by the late Rev. S. M. Walker, of Saint Enoder, Cornwall, from an old man in his parish. Miss Octavia L. Hoare sent it me as preserved by Mr. Walker. We have obtained the same song from Mary Sacherley, aged 75, perfectly illiterate, at Huckaby Bridge, Dartmoor. Mary Sacherley is daughter of an old singing moor man, who was a cripple, on Dartmoor. She possesses the unique distinction of having a house that was built and inhabited in one day. The circumstances are these: Her husband's father had collected granite boulders to erect a cottage on a bit of land that he deemed waste, but a farmer interfered as he began to build. He accordingly had all the stones rolled down hill to a spot by the road side, heaped one on another in rude walls, rough beams thrown across, and covered with turf, and went into the house the same night. In that house his grandchildren are now living.

Two of the stanzas, 3 and 5, are found in the Scotch song, " Wally, Wally, up the bank," "Orpheus Calsdonicus," 1733, No. 34; stanzas 4 and 5 in the song in "The Scott's Musical Museum," 1787 — 1803, VI., p. 582 ; Herd's "Scottish Songs," 3rd ed., 1791, I., p. 140; part of last stanza is like our conclusion. In "The Wandering Lover's Garland," circ. 1730, are two of the verses worked into an
independent ballad, showing that the original is earlier. Again taken down from W. Nichols, of Whitchurch, near Tavistock, it was a song of his grandmother's, who sixty years ago was hostess of the village inn.


DEEP IN LOVE.

1. A ship came sailing over the sea,
As deeply laden as she could be;
My sorrows fill me to the brim,
I care not if I sink or swim.

2. Ten thousand ladies in the room,
But my true love's the fairest bloom,
Of stars she is my brightest sun,
I said I would have her or none.

3. I leaned my back against an oak.
But first It bent and then it broke;
Untrusty as I found that tree.
So did my love prove false to me.

4. Down in a mead[ow] the other day,
As carelessly I went my way,
And plucked flowers red and blue,
I little thought what love could do.

5. I saw a Rose with ruddy blush.
And thrust my hind into the bush,
I pricked my fingers to the bone,
I would I'd left that rose alone!

6. I wish! I wish! but 'tis in vain,
I wish I had I my heart again
With silver chain and diamond locks,
I'd fasten it in a golden box.

Baring-Gould's notes are transcribed here: http://www.sbgsongs.org/userimages/Deeplove-comp.pdf In stanza 4 he had "mead" instead of "meadow." Obviously rewritten by Baring-Gould to make each stanza have an AABB rhyme- in fact he took out the line that names the song-- Deep in Love-- it should be first stanza, the third line, "But not so deep as in love I am."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Feb 17 - 02:53 PM

What's wrong with 'mead'? It fits perfectly the flowery description of the rest of the song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Feb 17 - 05:33 PM

Hi Steve,

Well it's taken from Unfortunate Swain, I guess I thought it was a mistake. Here's how it is printed:

Down in yon Meadow fresh and gay,
Picking of Flowers the other day,
Picking of Lillies red and blue:
I little thought what Love could do. [Unfortunate Swain]

Now it's right?

Down in yon Mead fresh and gay,
Picking of Flowers the other day,
Picking of Lillies red and blue:
I little thought what Love could do.

Since it's supposedly traditional he could have sung, "mead" :) Baring-Gould completely reworked this version leaving off the line than names the song. I still think it's "meadow." No big deal just two letters-- unless you step on something- "ow" that hurt :)

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Feb 17 - 05:57 PM

Hi,

The problem with these songs based on the Unfortunate Swain is that every stanza but two (stanzas 7 and 8) is a floater. As an example, let's use a short version collected by George Butterworth:

            Down in those meadows fresh & gay,
            Plucking flowers the other day,
            I plucked those flowers both red and blues,
            I little thought what love could do

            The roses are such prickly flowers
            They should be gathered when they are green,
            I pricked my finger into the bone,
            I left the sweetest rose behind.

            I leaned my back against an oak,
            I thought it was a trusty tree,
            But first it bent,then it broke,
            And so did my false love to me.

            In yonder deep there swims a ship,
            She swims as deep as deep can be,
            Not half so deep as I am in love,
            I little care if I sink or swim.

It's not "Deep in Love" unless you put the last stanza first then it's "Deep in Love." Right now it's "Down in those Meadows" based on the "Unfortunate Swain" identifying stanza or it could be called "Unfortunate Swain" if the singer or collector even knew it came from that broadside.

Or if it began with the third stanza:

            I leaned my back against an oak,
            I thought it was a trusty tree,
            But first it bent, then it broke,
            And so did my false love to me.

Now it's titled "I Leaned my Back" or "Trusty Tree." Each stanza is an autonomous floater.

If only two stanzas-- it makes it easier to name :)

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Feb 17 - 06:19 PM

Hi,

Here's another example:

"Down In Yon Meadows", tune and text from Thomas Hepple; Manuscript, ca.1857

            Down in a meadow fresh & gay
            Plucking flowers the other day,
            Plucking flowers both red and blue,
            I little thought what love could do.

            Where love is planted there it grows,
            It buds & blossoms like any rose,
            Such a sweet and pleasant smell,
            All flowers on earth can it excel.

            There thousands thousands all in a room,
            My love she carries the highest bloom,
            Surely she must be some chosen one,
            I will have her or, I will have none.

            I put my hand into a bush,
            Thinking the sweetest rose to find,
            But I prick'd my finger to the bone,
            I left the sweetest rose behind.

            I spy'd a ship sailing on the sea
            Laden as deep as she could be,
            But not deep as in love I am,
            I care not whether she sink or swim.

            Must I be bound and she go free
            Must I love one that loves not me;
            Why should I act such a childish part
            To love a girl that should break my heart.

This is not "Deep in Love" and it is almost appropriately titled (Down in a Meadow). It's also not "Must I be Bound." It can't be named or classified by any other stanza.

If it began with another stanza, it could be named by that stanza. It can be classified under Unfortunate Swain. I'm working on this now but this is a problem with Roud 18829 (which I was going to look at later) and some Roud numbers-- thank goodness everything isn't this complicated!!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Feb 17 - 07:26 PM

Hi,

Not sure if I put the Unfortunate Swain text here. I'm including a few brief unfinished notes from my "Deep in Love" headontes:

The placement of the identifying "Deep in Love" stanza as the opening stanza is one way to validate the title being "Deep in Love." Some other ways are: the identifying stanza is repeated as a chorus or if there are two stanzas in the variant. The "Deep in Love" stanza does not have other stanzas that usually go with it but rather it is from a set of stanzas found in "The Unfortunate Swain" which can reasonably be sung in any order. A number of broadsides were printed starting about 1750. This standard text is from The Merry Songster. Being a collection of songs, Printed and sold in Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, London, [1770?]:

"The Unfortunate Swain"

1. Down in a Meadow both fair and gay,
Plucking a Flowers the other day,
Plucking a Flower both red and blue,
I little thought what Love could do.

2. Where Love's planted there it grow(s),
It buds and blows much like any Rose;
And has so sweet and pleasant smell,
No Flower on Earth can it excell.

3. Must I be bound and she be free?
Must I love one that loves not me?
Why should I act such a childish Part
To love a Girl that will break my Heart.

4. There's thousand thousands in room,
My true love carries the highest Bloom,
Sure she is some chosen one,
I will have her, or I'll have none.

5. I spy'd a Ship sailing on the Deep,
She sail'd as deep as she could swim;
But not so deep as in Love I am,
I care not whether I sink or swim.

6. I set my Back against an oak,
I thought it had been a Tree;
But first it bent and then it broke,
So did my false Love to me.

7. I put my Hand into a Bush,
Thinking the sweetest Rose to find,
l prick'd my Finger to the Bone,
And left the sweetest Rose behind.

8. If Roses are such prickly Flowers,
They should be gather'd while they're green,
And he that loves an unkind Lover,
I'm sure he strives against the stream.

9. When my love is dead and at her rest,
I'll think of her whom I love best
I'll wrap her up in Linnen strong,
And think on her when she's dead and gon[e].

Songs related to or derived from The Unfortunate Swain, also known as Picking Lilies, are identified by the opening, "Down in a Meadow." Notice that Baring-Gould's "Deep in Love' stanza 4 opens with "Down in a Meadow[]." Stanzas 7 and 8 are usually joined and come from Martin Parker's "Distressed Virgin" of c.1626. The other stanzas usually appear along with the "Deep in Love" stanza in print and in tradition. The choice and the order of stanzas seem arbitrary. What's remarkable is that the individual stanza exhibit a wide variety of emotions from the exhilaration of love (stanzas 1, 2,4,5) to the agony of despair and death (stanzas 3,6,7,8,9).

The first stanza or more accurately the first line is occasionally found in the Died for Love songs and their relatives. It's mixed with the similar first line from "Constant Lady," a broadside more commonly used in Died for Love. Stanza 4 ("If there's a thousand in the room") is found in Sailor Boy (Sweet William) a "traditional" relative[] of Died for Love.
* * * *

I never finished my headnotes. They are here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7q-deep-in-love-deep-as-the-love-im-in.aspx

As a general rule, with very few exceptions (one being "Must I Go Bound"): Stanzas from Unfortunate Swain are not found in the Died for Love songs. Died for Love is aligned with Constant Lady and the False Squire. Some of the related songs like Sailor Boy, for example, have a common stanza.

Unfortunate Swain is aligned with "Down in the Meadows;" "Love is Teasing;" "Waly, Waly;" "Water is Wide;" "Deep in Love" and "Must I Go Bound."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Feb 17 - 09:31 PM

Hi,

I looked at MSS of Roud 28829. The link I posted that claims to have Baring-Gould's complete notes-- are just his final reworked pages, not his actually messy notes. Baring-Gould version in Song's of the West was completely reworded to have an AABB rhyme so it should be disregarded. The actual traditional versions are very sketchy and I'll need to spend some time to figure out what he did. However, there are several versions.

Unfortunately Baring-Gould labeled these different variants of Unfortunate Swain, Deep in Love, which apparently became a label that somehow stuck-- when it's the rewording of the third line of 9 random stanzas. As mystifying as that is to me- so be it (or, as Sir Paul penned, "Let it Be").

I've found a couple traditional versions that I feel qualify to be Deep in Love versions. One is a song sung by Newcastle miners:

From Notes and Queries (page 441) 1867:

Song.—I came across a song a few days ago, of which I append the words. I was told that it is a fragment of a song frequently sung by the Newcastle pitmen. The melody, as I heard it, is very quaint, and also good, and has an ancient ring about it. Perhaps you or some of your readers can give the rest of the song, or anything of its history, &c.

"I saw a ship sailing on the sea.
As deeply laden as she could be;
But not so deep as in love I am,
For I care not whether I sink or swim.

"I leaned my back against an oak,
Thinking it was some trusty tree;
But first it bent, and then it broke,
And so did my false love to me.

"I put my hand into a thorn,
Thinking the sweetest rose to find;
I pricked my finger to the bone.
And left the beauteous flower behind.

"I wish, I wish, but 'tis all in vain—
I wish I had my heart back again;
I'd lock it up in a silver box,
And fasten it with a golden chain."

C. L. Acland.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 24 Feb 17 - 01:01 PM

Hi,

I've finished the headnotes to "I am a Rover": http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7p-i-am-a-rover-the-rover.aspx

I want to thank Steve Gardham for sending me copies and texts/ also Gwilym Davies for sending mp3s. Steve I need "I Love you Jamie" from Greig Duncan to finish that and Deep in Love by Gladys Stone in Kennedy, Folksongs of Britain & Ireland (1975) p.349 Collector, Bob Copper.

I've briefly looked at Yon Green Valley (Green Valley) and wonder- does anyone has any older versions of that song?

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 24 Feb 17 - 09:56 PM

Hi,

I've started "Yon Green Valley" which has a stanza in common with "I Am a Rover" and is related to Died for Love and its family. Here the first page: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7r-yon-green-valley-green-valley-.aspx

I need some help tracking down versions but it won't be easy. It's found mainly in Canada. I found a version in "Never Had a Word Between Us": Pattern in the Verbal Art of a Newfoundland Woman; Debora G. Kodish - 1981. Its chorus:

Down in yon green valley that lies far away,
Where me and my bonny boy spent manys a pleasant day
Where me and my bonny boy spent manys a pleasant time
He soon proved false to Floro on the lovely banks of Bine.

Anyone have the book who can post it? Know a version like that?

* * * *

Debra Cowan of Massachusetts has a version, it begins:

Green Valley

For a young man courted me earnestly
It was with his wishes I did comply
It was his false vows and flattering tongue
He beguiled me love when I was young

In yon green valley we both went down
Where the pretty small birds come a-whistling 'round
Changing their notes from tree to tree
As the sun arose on yon green valley.

I need to find her source or any closely related version. Anyone?

* * * *

This is related but it's a different song- sung from the male perspective. Any other versions or info?

The Journal of American Folk-lore, Volume 22, Parts 3-4
Barry-- Irish Come-all -Ye's

1. Early early all in the spring,
When gentle small birds begin to sing,
Changing their notes from tree to tree,
As the sun arose over yon green valley.

2. For six long months my love she did prove kind,
And then six after, she changed her mind,
   Saying "Farewell, darling, I must away,
You know my parents I must obey!"

3. He held her fast, he would not let her go,
   Saying, "Mary, Mary, my mind you know,
   Fulfil those vows you made to me,
As the sun arose over yon green valley!"

* * * *

Other than that there's a version called "Must I Go Bound" by Bascom Lama Lunsford recorded in 1935. Or a version titled "Green Valley" recorded by Lomax in Michigan in 1938. Anyone? Other versions?

I'll do probably one or two more "appendix" additions- then it's a matter of finishing everything. Any comments or suggests are welcome.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 02:12 PM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 02:32 PM

Hi,

I've rewritten my Died for Love headnotes for my A and B. The A version notes aren't too long so I'll included them. These are versions of Roud 60 and 495. You may read the rough draft here http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7-died-for-love-brisk-young-sailorrambling-boy.aspx where it may be easier to read. Comments and suggestions are welcome, Richie.

* * * *

The epitaph, "I died for love" has been echoed in the many various ballads of this study. The "Died for Love" ballads today are identified by certain characteristics-- some of which are missing or have changed which makes categorization of these related ballads difficult. The general characteristics are:

1. The ballad story is told by a maid who falls in love with a false lover, a rambling boy. She tells him of her deep love and that she would leave her family and friends to go with him.
2. When he is courting her he follows her through frost and snow. When she becomes pregnant he passes by her door.
3. He goes to a town, house or alehouse and takes another girl on his knee. She relates: He tells her thing he won't tell me.
4. She laments: It's a grief, and I'll tell you why-- because she has more gold than I. But her gold will waste and her beauty will fly, then she'll be the same as I.
5. She wishes her baby could be born and sitting on its nurse's knee and "I'll be under the clay with green, green grass waving over me."
6. She wishes she was a maid again, but that can never be-- till an apple grows on an orange tree.
7. She goes up to her room and her mother asks, 'What's the matter with you dear?" She tells her mother she doesn't know the pain and suffering pain and woe--her daughter asks her mother for a chair and a pen and ink to write it down.
8. When her father comes home late at light he asks for his heart's delight. He goes upstairs the door he broke, he found his daughter hanging from a rope. He takes a knife and cuts her down and on her breast a note he found saying: What a foolish girl am I to fall in love with a butcher (Irish) boy. Go dig my grave both wide and deep, place a marble stone at me head and feet, and on my breast put a turtle dove, to show the world that I died for love.

A, "Died For Love," is the title of this study and under this title fall a number of ballads mostly of more recent origin. It is the general theme of A which unifies this study: A maid is suffering from either the loss or betrayal of her lover and has "died for love." In many versions the maid is pregnant by her false lover and wishes she was a maid again or that she was dead and her baby could be born. One early broadside, Aa, "The Effects of Love- A New Song," printed in London c. 1780 shows the generic stanzas associated with the "Died for Love" ballads. The core ballads under A (my B-G) show how and why "she died for love" with considerable variation. In the subsequent core ballads after A the maid's circumstances prove to be so dire (she's abandoned, pregnant) that she commits suicide or simply dies of a broken heart. In his 1954 article in The English Folk Dance and Song Society Journal (Volume 7, p. 168) J. W. Allen called the broadside Aa "a veritable pot-pourri of songs." Stanzas 4 and 5, for example, are found similarly in the circa 1701 broadside "Arthur's Seat Shall Be My Bed, or: Love in Despair," an older parallel broadside. This shows the difficulty of classifying these ballads which are made up of random floating stanzas from various older broadsides. I give Aa, which is more a love song than a ballad, in its entirety:

Aa, "The Effects of Love- A New Song, (broadside) London c. 1780:

    1. O! Love is hot, and Love is cold,
    And love is dearer than any gold;
    And love is dearer than any thing,
    Unto my grave it will me bring.

    2. O when my apron it hung low,
    He followed me thro' frost and snow;
    But now I am with-child by him,
    He passes by and says nothing.

    3. I wish that I had ne'er been born,
    Since love has proved my downfall;
    He takes a stranger on his knee,
    And is this not a grief to me.

    4. I wish that my dear babe was born,
    And dandled on its daddy's knee,
    And I in the cold grave did lie,
    And the green grass grew over me.

    5. Ye Christmas winds when will ye blow;
    And blow the green leaves off the tree,
    O, gentle Death, when will you call,
    For of my life I am quite weary.

    6. Unloose those chains love, and set me free
    And let me at liberty;
    For was you hear (sic) instead of me,
    I'd unloose you love, and set you free.

Aa had been copied in Sabine Baring-Gould's notebook by 1890 after he visited the British Museum. He used the broadside in several studies of ballads related to Died for Love and even claimed one of his informants had sung it nearly exactly as it was published.

As is typical of many of the early broadsides, Aa consists of floating stanzas that convey the despair of a maid who has become pregnant and wishes death would claim her to end the suffering and the bonds of love. Stanzas 2, 3 and 4 are core stanzas of Died for Love. The older broadsides of the late 1600s about a maid in despair which include "Arthur's Seat," "Constant Lady and the False Squire," "Nelly's Constancy" and "Jealous Lover" established a foundation for the more closely related ballads of the 1700s. Besides Aa, "The Effects of Love" were other similar broadsides which also told a tale of the maid's despair. The "Forsaken Lover" of c. 1780 also had floating stanzas from a broadside with quite different stanzas titled "The Unfortunate Swain" as well as two stanzas closely related to Died for Love:

I wish to Christ my babe was born,
And smiling in its daddy's arms,
I myself wrapt up in clay,
Then should I be free from all harm.

Had I but kept my apron down,
My love had ne'er forsaken me,
But now he walks up and down the town
With a harlot, and not with me.

"The Complaining Maid" of c.1780 opened with three stanzas which are very similar to those found in Died for Love:

Must I be bound that can go free,
Must I love one that loves not me.
Let reason rule thy wretched mind,
Altho' I wink I am not blind.

He loves another one he loves not me,
No cares he for my company,
He loves another I'll tell you why
Because she has more gold than I.

Gold will wast and Silver will flys,
In time she may have as little as I,
Had I but gold and Silver in store,
He would like me as he has done before.

These and other broadsides of the 1700s such as "Wheel of Fortune" were sung from the perspective of a maid in deep despair. They were usually constructed of floating stanzas that evolved from the early ballads of the 1600s which established the general Died for Love theme about a maid who has been rejected by her false lover, is pregnant and wishes she were dead. The variants of A have the "apron" and "I wish I Wish" stanza of Roud 495 plus they include at times the "alehouse" stanza and the "foolish young girl" stanza. The emphasis of A is on the three Died for Love stanzas of Aa (stanzas 2, 3 and 4) but A includes Characteristics 1-6 (see the earlier list) which includes the alehouse stanza (Roud 60). A does not have the Brisk Young Sailor opening nor the suicide; instead, it has three endings:

1. The first and most common ending is associated with the "I Wish, I Wish" stanza:
       I wish, I wish, I wish in vain,
       I wish I was a maid again,
       But a maid again I never shall be,
       Till an apple grows on an orange tree.
After this ending, it is presumed that the maid continues on in her pregnant condition in a state of despair. No conclusions are drawn about what will happen in the future. This popular ending appears in the mid-1800s so it's not much older than c.1840.

2. The second comes from the common stanza as found in c1780 broadside, The Effects of Love:
       I wish that my dear babe was born,
       And dandled on its daddy's knee,
       And I in the cold grave did lie,
       And the green grass grew over me.
This ending also has no specific finality to it although her condition is so extreme it seems her wish will shortly come true.

3. The last ending is drawn from the parallel broadside, The Constant Lady and the False-Hearted Squire. This ending is taken from Elsie Morrison of Moray in 1956 as recorded by Hamish Henderson:
      To her bed this fair maid went
      She placed the lilies below her head
      Twas there she lay and she never spoke
      Twas all through love that her young heart broke.
In this ending, borrowed from a different broadside, the maid dies of a broken heart.

* * * *


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 04:46 PM

Hi,

Here's my Cruel Father (B version) notes. It's interesting that there is no Roud number for this except Steve told me to use Roud 23272 a number for "The Isle of Cloy" a version of B. Again, it's better viewed online but it's easier to assimilate in little chucks :) http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7-died-for-love-brisk-young-sailorrambling-boy.aspx although it's improved it probably needs to be redone at least once. To see all the ballads of B, look at the first post in this thread, Richie

* * * *

From the ashes of the maid's ruin came B, titled Cruel Father after Ba, a Madden broadside of c.1780. Although B was printed in the last half of the 1700s, it may be from a much older missing broadside which could be the originator of the older members of the Died for Love family[11]. Evidence of this missing antecedent is found in Rambling Boy, C, which is B without B's detailed story line and a traditional Scottish version "The Irish Boy" from an Edinburgh MS dated 1770. "The Cruel Father" along with "The Rambling Boy" introduced an important new twist to the maid's vague story, an element not found in the floating stanzas of the "maid in despair" broadsides:

       the maid-- distraught over the loss or abandonment of her lover--writes a note then commits suicide. Her father comes home, finds her hanging by a rope and cuts her down. He reads the note on her breast which instructs him to bury her in a certain way so the world will know she "died for love."

This new twist is found in a traditional version "The Irish Boy," from an MS by Elizabeth St. Clair of Edinburgh, c.1770 and many of the subsequent members of the Died for Love family. It is especially important in Butcher Boy and Maiden's Prayer, a variant still popular in the UK today. And most importantly-- B and C introduce the culminating "Died for Love" stanza ("Dig my grave both wide and deep") which is a unifying stanza found in the "Died for Love" songs and their relatives. Since Ba has the common "died for love" ending and suicide, it places B as a family member in spite of its very different story. Although Bb from a Scottish chapbook is titled "Answer to Rambling Boy," it is not closely related to the "Rambling Boy" (my C) that precedes it or the Pitts "Rambling Boy" broadside of c.1820 which begins, "I am a wild and rambling boy." Both the chapbook "Rambling Boy" and the Pitts broadside, are different ballads than those of B-- they are B with B's plot removed-- replacing the plot of B are the floating stanzas of A. Both "The Rambling Boy" and Bc, "The Answer to Rambling Boy," were also published four times in the US (Philadelphia) in the early 1800s[12]. A number of very corrupt versions[13] of B, usually appearing in collections under the "Butcher Boy" title, have been collected in the US. Here is Ba, "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid" from the Madden Collection, dated c1780:

A squire's daughter near Aclecloy,
She fell in love with a prentice boy,
Buy when her father came to hear,
He separated her from her dear.

[Now all for to increase her pain,[14]
He lent her true love to the main;]
To act his part with a gallant tar,
On board the Terrible man of war.

He had not been three months at sea,
Before he fell in a bloody fray;
It was tins young man's lot to fall.
And he lost his life by a cannon-ball.

That very night this man was slain,
His Ghost unto her father came,
With dismal moans by the bed he stood,
His neck and breast all smear'd with blood.

A fortnight after this lady fair
She fell in fits for her only dear
That very night on her bed awoke,
And hung herself in her own bed-rope.

He took a knife and cut her down
And in her bosom a note was found.
It was wrote in blood by a woman's hand,
These few lines as you shall understand.

A cruel father you was [worst] of men,
'Tis you have brought me to my sad end,
You sent my jewel where the stormy winds did blow,
Now, alas! it has prov'd my overthrow.

Once my dear love is slain
And bury'd in the watery main,
May this warning be, for your cruelty,
I will die a maid for my jewel's sake.

Dig me a grave, both wide and deep;
Place a marble-stone for to cover it,
And in the middle a turtle dove,
To show young virgins I dy'd for love!"

After the first stanzas it's clear that B has a much different story than A, C-F or for that matter: any other versions except G. Except for the opening lines, suicide and ending, B is a different ballad. The three extant older print titles include: "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," "Answer to Rambling Boy" and "The Squire's Daughter." Besides a number of corrupt traditional versions found in the US, there are three credible traditional variants; the first, titled Cruel Father, was collected by Sharp in Virginia[15] in 1918; the second, titled "Isle of Cloy," was collected by E.J. Moeran in Suffolk in the 1930s while the last, titled "Beam of Oak,"was collected by Macedward Leach in Labrador in 1960. B has these identifying characteristics with variation:

1) A maid, who is a squire's daughter near Auchnacloy, (County Tryone, Ireland) falls in love with a prentice boy/rambling boy. When her "cruel" father finds out about their love, he separates them by pressing the boy to sea. A similar theme with a different ending is found in the "Drowsy Sleeper" broadsides.
2) Several months after the prentice/rambling boy is sent to sea on a man-of-war, there's a battle and he dies by a cannonball. That very night, his bloody ghost visits the father.
3) A fortnight later his daughter hears of her lover's death and distraught-- writes a note and goes to her room. Her father comes home, looks for his daughter and getting no answer breaks down her door to find her hanging from a rope. "He took a knife and cut her down and in her bosom a note was found." The note, written in blood, blames the "cruel father" for her "sad overthrow."
4) The ending of Ba, "Cruel Father," is the standard stanza: "Dig me a grave, both wide and deep/ Place a marble-stone for to cover it/ And in the middle a turtle dove/To show young virgins I dy'd for love!" Both the suicide and ending show Ba's association with Rambling Boy, Butcher Boy, and the more modern version of the 1900s, Maiden's Prayer.

Because the male suitor is from Auchnacloy, (County Tryone, Ireland) its possible that B and also C are of Irish origin. Notice in B, that there is no false lover, no pregnancy is mentioned and that she does not hang herself because of her false lover but because her cruel father separated them and sent her lover to sea where he was killed by a cannonball. B, therefore, is a different ballad. As mentioned earlier: by its opening lines, the suicide, and ending stanza, B is included here as a version of "Died for Love." B, without identification, has often been lumped together in collections with versions of "The Butcher Boy" and other "Died in Love" ballads. The existence of B was pointed out by Roger deV. Renwick in his chapter 'Oh, Willie': An Unrecognized Anglo-American Ballad from his book, Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths. Although Renwick fails to identify the original source of his "new" ballad, he does show the differences and identifies most versions in various collections. The American versions of B that Renwick calls "Oh Willie" are found between Be-Bo except for Bi, which is English. Most of the traditional US versions are badly corrupted and are missing most of the story. Only in Bg (Sharp MS from Virginia in 1918) are enough details given to approximate the ballad story. Many US versions of B just mention the father who "swore he'd use his cannon ball" and for Renwick that was enough to include them a versions of "Oh Willie," my B. Another American identifier for B is the name "Willie" who in most American versions is not sent to sea, not killed at sea and his ghost doesn't return to haunt the cruel father. Surprisingly, there is no Roud number for B and despite Renwick's article, B is still not recognized. The Traditional Ballad Index calls B, "Beam of Oak," after the excellent version from Labrador, yet after a sketchy analysis they call it Roud 18830, the apparent Roud number for C, Rambling Boy. The various Died for Love ballads were at one time lumped under Roud 60 and through the diligence of Steve Gardham the vast Roud 60 was broken up and assigned different Roud numbers from the 18820s and 18830s. Some minor modification of Roud numbers is still required.

Let's look at some similarities of B and C which share a very similar first line. The male suitor is usually named "Willie" in B, in some versions of C the suitor's name is also "Willie" and occasionally in C he cuts down the rope when he finds his love hanging-- a role usually carried out by her father. Her suitor is also named "Willie" in Robertson's 1799 version titled "Rambling Boy," my Cc. Another reason to believe both B and C were once derived from a single older print version is the "I wish I were a black-bird or thrush" stanza found in two American traditional versions of B and also Cd, the Pitts' "Rambling Boy." Other similarities are found in Robertson's 1799 "Rambling Boy," my Cc, which has the suicide and "Go dig my grave both wide and deep" stanza found in Ba.

A few traditional ballads tell the full story found in Ba-Bc. One of them, "The Isle of Cloy," Bh, was collected by the composer E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. In the US there are a number of versions of B, most very corrupt. Notice that Bb, "Answer to Rambling Boy," was printed in the United States (Philadelphia) four times between 1805 and 1817. These US printings I've listed under Bd. The US printings seem to have had little effect on tradition and although "Oh Willie" versions have been found it's unclear if they could be from British tradition or from a US print. A variant titled "Rude and Rambling Boy," from Buna Hicks of Sugar Grove, NC has been traced to Rebecca Harmon, daughter of old "Counce" Harmon who disseminated ballad from his forbears brought from Virginia before the Revolutionary War. The use of "bed rope," an antiquated term found only in the older broadsides, indicates the Hicks/Harmon ballad to be very old.

One other variant, H, The Queen of Hearts, has the story of B but it is significantly abbreviated and added as two stanzas to the end of those broadsides. I've separated them and indicated the commonality. It's important to note that although B was not printed after 1800, the stanzas of B were printed in the Queen of Hearts, a broadside of the 1820s-1850s. This means the ballad story of B was still known although the ballad seemed to disappear and even now has not been properly acknowledged.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 08:38 PM

Hi,

This will be the third installment of my headnotes and is solely about "The Rambling Boy" (Roud 18830), a ballad wildly popular in the UK in the late 1700s and early 1800s. Although the first stanza and tune were catchy (see Kittredge JAF 1916) the ballad as created by a broadside writer (or writers) was fatally flawed and died a quick death. As always the text may be read on my site: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7-died-for-love-brisk-young-sailorrambling-boy.aspx The fatal flaw? It was poorly assembled from another broadside, read on and you shall see, Richie.

* * * *

C, "The Rambling Boy" was printed in collections and chapbooks in England, Ireland and Scotland in the 1700s. The earliest record of it is in "The musical companion: Being a chosen collection of the new and favorite songs, sung at the theatres and public gardens." This collection of 18 songs was printed in London about 1765. In this collection the title is "The Wild Rover," a title not commonly used for the "Rambling Boy" songs. Today, "Wild Rover" is a title for a different song but there is a related family member titled, The Rover ("I am a rover who is quite well-known") with a vaguely similar first stanza. "Rambling Boy" was first printed under the "Rambling Boy" title in a chapbook "The Fencibles in the Suds: A New Song to which are Added, 2. the Rambling Boy. 3. the Irish Lassey. 4. the Roving Tinker" printed in Dublin in 1782. Another chapbook published by W. Goggin of Limerick has "Rambling Boy, To which is Added, The New Vagary O, Shepherds I Have Lost My Love, The Drop of Dram, Fight Your Cock in the Morning," BM 11622 c.14, dated 1790. A Scottish chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, has "Rambling Boy with the Answer" (the Answer is B) which was printed in Saltmarket, Glasgow in 1799.

The Rambling Boy usually begins, "I'm a wild and rambling boy" or "I'm a rake and rambling boy" both of which are found in a different ballad about a highway robber (Laws 12, Roud 490) similarly titled "Rich and Rambling Boy," or "Rambling Boy," and also "A Wild and Wicked Youth," "In Newry Town," "The Robber's Song," "The Roving Blade," or "The Flash Lad." Since the opening line and the titles are the sometimes the same, it's easy to confuse the two. The highway robber ballad which was probably fashioned on the opening line of A and/or B has remained popular throughout the 1900s especially in America while C, The Rambling Boy was never popular in America and only one fragment has been collected from NY in the 1820s. Only B with it's similar opening line ("I am a rowdy rambling boy") has been found in America, but usually in a corrupt state.

Our Rambling Boy (Round 18830) text from the Musical Companion (2nd song) of 1765, London, follows:

1. I am a wild and a rambling boy,
My lodgings are in the Isle of Cloy,
A wild and a rambling boy I be,
I'll forsake them all and follow thee.

2. O Billy! Billy! I love you well,
I love you better than tongue can tell
I love you well but dare not show,
To you my dear, let no one know.

3. I wish I was a blackbird or thrush,
Changing my notes from bush to bush,
That all the world might plainly see,
I lov'd a man that lov'd not me.

4. I wish I was a little fly,
That on his bosom I might lie.
And all the people fast asleep,
Into my lover's arms I'd softly creep.

5. I love my father I love my mother,
I love my sisters and my brothers
I love my friends and relations too,
I would forsake them all to go with you.

6. My father left me house and land,
Bid me use it at my command
But at my command they shall I never be;
I'll forsake them all love and go with thee.

7. My father coming home late one night
And asking for his heart's delight.
He ran up stairs, the door he broke.
And found her hanging in a rope.

8. He took a knife and cut her down,
And in her bosom a note was found:
Dig me a grave both wide and deep.
And a marble stone to cover it.

The text is a series of floaters and "I Wish" stanzas from older broadsides with stanzas 1, 7 and 8 being in common with B, The Cruel Father. Stanza 2 is taken directly from the 1686 broadside Nelly's Constancy which is found modified in a number of Died for Love ballads and is even the title of one-- I Love You Jamie, a Scottish variant. Stanzas 3 and 4 are from the tradition of Died for Love being "I wish I was" ballad stanzas (see: Pitman's Love Song). Stanza 5 is a floater found in many Died for Love songs and older broadsides while stanza 6 is unique but appears with considerable variation in later versions. Stanzas 2-6 are designed to show the maid's deep love for her Rambling Boy however, the abrupt and sudden suicide show the ending stanzas were tacked on and the connecting stanzas were missing. It's as if a broadside writer took B and removed the plot and filled it with floating love stanzas. With this fatal flaw in broadside construction, the suicide never made sense.

Ca also retains the name Billie/Willie as found in B an indication that the construction of C was made from B, or and earlier missing broadside. The same or similar Rambling Boy text was reprinted a number of times in broadsides of the 1800s, probably first by J. Pitts of 14 Great St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials, London about 1806. About 1888 Baring-Gould, who has access to the British Museum(Library) broadsides, copied the opening stanzas of the Pitts broadside in his notebooks as version C. The broadside, "Rambling Boy" was printed by J. Catnach, at 7 Dials between 1813 and 1838 was "sold by T. Batchelar, 14, Hackney Road Crescent; Marshall, Bristol; Price, St. Clement's; Bennett, and Boyse, Brighton; J. Sharman, Cambridge; & J. Pierce, Southborough," showing that it was widely distributed.

As stated earlier, the difference between B and C is that the plot of B is missing and is replaced by random stanzas showing the maid's deep love for her rambling boy-- she is trying to prove her love for him but since he is a rambling boy it seems he's left her and she's broken-hearted. The problem is: the earlier stanzas of "Rambling Boy" 1-6 provide little or no justification for the suicide whereas in B the reason for the suicide is reasonable: she kills herself because her father sent her lover to sea where he's killed by a cannonball. In Cc, as in a corrupt version of B, it's the rambling boy who comes home and finds his lover:

My love he came late in the night,
Seeking for his sweet-heart's delight;
He ran up stairs, the door he broke,
And found his love all in a rope.

The Rambling Boy was very popular by the end of the 1700s and several versions of it were printed in plays of the early 1800s where it was known as a street ballad as demonstrated by this excerpt from the 1806 "Songster's Museum of Celebrated Modern English, Irish, and Scotch Songs" ("v" is written for "w" as in the old comic style):

(Spoken) — Come, good customers, here's an entire new song, call'd 'I am a vild and roving boy,'—
'Come you sir, strike up.' — Stop Doll, let's rosin first.
(To the tune sung by the Beggars in the streets)

She.-- I am a vild and a rambling boy,
He.-- My lodgings in the isle of Troy;
She.-- A rambling boy although I be,
He.-- I'd leave them all, and follow thee.

(That 'ere man vants a ballad, Doll, vy don't you look about.)

She.-- l vish I vas a little fly,
He.-- In my love's bosom all for to lie,
She.--That all the world might plainly see,
He.-- I loves the girl that loves not me.

(This is a bad halfpenny, your honor, I'd thank you for another.)


That the ballad in 1806 is now being sung by "the beggars in the streets" is an indication of its popularity. It's known primarily as an Irish ballad as the rambling boy is from Auchnacloy, although its real source is unknown. In Lady Morgan's 1833 work "Manor Sackville" which was published as the first of three drama plays in "Dramatic Scenes from Real Life" she depicts scenes from Irish life and includes part of the ballad "Rake and Rambling Boy":

[Denis O'Dowd is heard singing on the stairs]

I am a rake, and a rambling boy,
My lodging it's in Auchnacloy;
A rambling boy, dear, altho' I be,
I'll forsake my home, love, and follow thee.
Fal lal la, fal lal lal la.

I wish I was a little fly,
On my love's buzzom I would lie;
Then, all the wor-ald might plainly see,
That I loved a girl, and she loved not me.
Fal lal la, fal lal lal la.

My fader being out very late one night,
He called sorely for his heart's delight;
He went up stairs, and the door he broke,
And he found her hang-ging by a rope.
Fal lal la, fal lal lal la.

Another example is from Roderic Random, a comic opera (in three acts) by Samuel William Ryley, dated 1800. This version includes one stanza of Rambling Boy, the rest is similar to stanzas from the related older broadside ballads:

Joe and Bet, the Ballads Singers

I. Down by a Christian [crystal] River side,
Where little fishes they do glide;
A damsel there I chance to see
That cry'd out-- woe is me.

II. [Joe.]-- I wish I was a little fly,
[Bet.]--That on his bosom I might lie;
[Joe.]-Then all the world might plainly see
[Bet.]-I lov'd a man that lov'd not me.

III. [Joe.]--This Damsel now began for to complain,
[Bet.]--And her true love she called by his name;
Ah! wretched woman that I be,
[Joe.]--My true love's gone-Ah! woe is me.

IV. [Joe.]-- Come all true Loviers listen a while[],
[Bet.]-How a false man did me beguile,
With my poor heart he did make free,
[Joe.]--Which makes me cry, Ah! woe is me.

Notice the 1st stanza begins similarly to the Pitts' "Sailor Boy" broadside and also the form is modified from “A Forsaken Lover's Complaint” by Robert Johnson c. 1611 (3 lines with a chorus). Only the second stanza is directly related to Rambling Boy- still it's a curiosity! The last example that the ballad had already become popular in the early 1800s is found in the actor's skit found in "The Actor's Budget; Consisting of Monologues, Prologues, Epilogues, and Tales" by William Oxberry, 1811:

Vocal and Rhetorical Imitations of Ballad-Singer

There's Dolly and I, when ballads we cry,
On a couple of stools see us stand;
The people all crowd, while she bawls aloud,
And I takes my fiddle in hand —(Imitates.)
(Speaking in a squeaking tone of voice.) Come, neighbours and friends, here's a new song, entitled and call'd, I am a wild and roving boy, -Come, play up,
(Speaking in a gruff tone.) Stop, let's rosin first
(Singing with a squeaking voice.) "I am a wild and roving boy,"
(Singing in a gruff voice.) "And my lodging is in the island of Cloy;"
(Squeaking.) "A rambling boy altho' I be,"
(Gruff) "I'll forsake them all, and I'll follow thee." Speaking.) There's a man wants to buy a ballad there—
(Squeaking) "Were I a blackbird or a thrush,
(Gruff) "Hopping about from bush to bush."
(Speaking.) Sing, Moll—(Squeaking.) "Then all the world might plainly see,"
(Speaking) It's a bad halfpenny, Moll.—
(Singing.) "I love the girl that loves not me."


The two stanzas from the ballad singers skit (once removed from the dialogue) appear as:

I am a wild and roving boy,
And my lodging is in the island of Cloy;
A rambling boy altho' I be
I'll forsake them all, and I'll follow thee.

Were I a blackbird or a thrush,
Hopping about from bush to bush.
Then all the world might plainly see,
I love the girl that loves not me.

Since our ballads are usually about a girl or maid in deep despair the last line (above) usually appears, "I lov'd a man that lov'd not me" or similarly. Changing "girl" to "man" works equally as well; "I love the man that loves not me." Cc, "The Rambling Boy" was printed along with Bb, "Answer to Rambling Boy" in a Scottish chapbook by Robertson in 1799 under the title, "The Rambling Boy, with the answer." Four printings were also found in US chapbooks from 1805 until 1817. Cc has the suicide found in B and F and also the complete quatrain "Go dig my grave both wide and deep"-- not found in all versions of C-- most versions give only two lines:

Dig me a grave both wide and deep.
And a marble stone to cover it.

Cc has a slightly different first line identified with several "rake and rambling boy" broadsides and begins:

I am a rake and a rambling boy.
I'm lately come from Auchnacloy;
A rambling boy although I be,
I'll forsake them all and go with thee.

The location of his lodging in the 1811 Oxberry skit above-- the Island of Cloy-- has persisted in broadsides and become the title of a broadside and a traditional version. The location has appeared in this corrupt state in both B, and C. Both stanzas in the 1811 example above are found similarly in Cc, The Rambling Boy in the Scottish chapbook. The Isle of Cloy (Roud 23272) is also used in B, where her father sends her lover to sea and he dies when struck by a cannonball. After his death she hangs herself (as in Butcher Boy) leaving a note which blames her father. E.J. Moeran collected The Isle of Cloy in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. A.L. Lloyd sang this song in 1956 on his Tradition album The Foggy Dew and Other Traditional English Love Songs. It begins:

"It's of a lady in the Isle of Cloy"

It also appears in the Pitts Broadside "Rambling Boy" as (second line):

"My lodgings are in the Isle of Cloy,"

In Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths by Roger Dev Renwick he says, Isle of Cloy is "not found in any official British place names and hence may be a folk name" which shows he doesn't know the source. The source became apparent to me through a series of spellings as the place-name appears in the older prints. Notice the slight change in The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid-- Madden Collection,

"A squire's daughter near Aclecloy."

to the accurate place-name in a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow (1799):

"I'm lately come from Auchnacloy;"

Auchnacloy is an archaic spelling (meaning "field of the stone") for Aughnacloy, County Tyrone in Northern Ireland. So
Isle of Cloy= Aclecloy= Auchnacloy. The folk process!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 09:43 AM

Excellent analysis, Richie! I'm beginning to agree, we need a new number for one of them, probably the one with the narrative as it's less common.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 07:48 PM

Hi,

That's what I like about you Steve you aren't entrenched in a position. Folk studies studies are evolving, just like your study of Child 295-- the walls must come down!!! Chatting with Steve Roud seems the prudent course of action.

The other area is the Unfortunate Swain or "Down in the Meadow/Down in Yon Valley" which is still Roud 60-- it shouldn't be. These songs have only one stanza occasionally in common (Must I Go Bound) with Died for Love. In tradition that stanza is usually missing. Although used in Died for Love, Must I go Bound is better separated.

Roud 18829 should be one variant, probably Must I Go Bound. "Deep in Love" is Unfortunate Swain or "Down in the Meadow/Down in Yon Valley." Baring-Gould and UK collectors called all versions of Unfortunate Swain- Deep in Love--that can be fixed. They can all be lumped or I'd be in favor of having Deep in Love separate and Unfortunate Swain or "Down in the Meadow/Down in Yon Valley" as a different Roud number.

Early, Early at the break of day (Two Hearts) is only two broadsides and two trad versions but should not be Roud 60 anymore.

These are all suggestions.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 05:46 AM

Bob Roberts' version of Sailor Boy (or whatever other title you prefer) has two delightful features: the localisation in stanza 4 and the spoken bit at the end.

Oh father, father, build me a boat
And on the ocean I'll go afloat.
And every ship that I chance to see,
I'll make enquiry for my boy Billee.

She 'adn't long sailed on the sea
When a man o' war ship she chanced to see.
Oh captain, captain, come tell me true,
Is me Billy boy there aboard wi' you?

What's the colour o' your Billy's hair?
What kind o' cloth does your Billy wear?
His hair is auburn, 'is eyes are blue,
And 'e wears the cloth of the navy blue.

I doubt, I doubt your Billy's not 'ere.
Last night 'e was drownded off Yarmouth pier.
You mind the time when the sea ran 'igh?
It parted us and your Billy boy.

Oh mother, mother the waves are wide.
The waves are long, and with him I'll bide.
So on 'em cast a turtle dove,
To show the world that I died in love.
(spoken) and over the side she went.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 10:08 AM

Lovely stuff, Richard! Bob was very inventive with the pieces he picked up and prone to localising. Here he made it more of a sea song. The 'Billee' bit has several connotations. I believe he also sang Thackeray's 'Little Billee' and he would have been familiar with the last of the Billyboys sailing on the east coast.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 28 Feb 17 - 09:48 AM

Hi,

TY, Richard for that version of Sailor Boy. I have the title "Sailor Boy (Sweet William)" which are the two main titles. The maid's usual reaction after learning of the death of her sailor boy is to jump overboard. In versions that have acquired stanzas from Died for Love she hangs herself. I've just started a study of Sailor Boy but it will take some time so it's not ready. I'm waiting to get studies done of the lesser relatives first :)

Steve and all, I've started "Down in the Meadows (Unfortunate Swain)" here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7s-down-in-a-meadow-unfortunate-swain.aspx I assume it's Roud 18829 although Unfortunate Swain isn't 18829 and I'm not sure (since I didn't see them in 18829) about some of the others like Christie's "Prickly Rose" and Johnson's "In Yon Garden" which dates back to the mid-1700s.

Steve what is the Roud number for these versions of Unfortunate Swain?

The study is just started so it's rough. Any other versions of Down in the Meadows would be appreciated, I only have about 10 so far.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Feb 17 - 10:30 AM

At the moment 'Unfortunate Swain' is included in 18829. If you want to make a case for a separate number then I'm sure Steve will listen.

My Master Title by the way, as you should already know, is 'Deep in Love' based on the title that appears most in published collections.

Remember a loose rule we use for deciding whether songs are variants of each other, as opposed to separate songs with a few floaters in common, is if the 2 (or more) songs have 50% of material or more in common. Of course this is fairly straightforward with narrative songs but not so with laments like these. I have 60-70 versions and will send some as soon as I get time. Now, back to those juicy songsters on the NLS site.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 28 Feb 17 - 11:31 AM

Hi,

I checked-- Unfortunate Swain is actually still Roud 60 a couple versions are 18829 but if you do a Roud search "Unfortunate Swain" it's Roud 60. I assume that was left over from days past.

They should all be 18829 I suppose, as for changing the number I think 18829 is fine and I know "Deep in Love" is the accepted title (via Baring-Gould) and although that makes no sense - that's the way it is. I'd prefer "Down in the Meadow" or "Down in Yon Meadow" so that's what I'm using. Maybe it can changed someday to Down in the Meadow.

Do you know how to access "John Johnson MS book"? Says: (digital copy in Vaughan Williams Memorial Library) p.31. Since there are digital copies it should be available- maybe not tho.

Thanks,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 28 Feb 17 - 03:45 PM

Hi,

I've finished for now Deep in Love: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7q-deep-in-love-deep-as-the-love-im-in.aspx

I've identified four versions that can reasonably be titled "Died in Love." The other versions are part of "Down in the Meadow" (Unfortunate Swain).

A. "I Saw a Ship" sung by Newcastle miners communicated by C.L. Acland. From Notes and Queries p.441, 1867.
B. "Deep in Love" Sent to Baring-Gould by Miss Octavia L. Hoare, Cornwall Cottage Dean, Kimbolton about 1889 from Baring-Gould's MS. See also the published version [in blockquotes] of "Deep in Love" by the same informant, Rev. S. M. Walker as it appears in Songs And Ballads Of The West (1891) by Sabine Baring-Gould, ‎Henry Fleetwood Sheppard, ‎Frederick William Bussell.
C. "I Spied a Ship Sailin' on the Sea"- sung by Miss Mutch collected by Gavin Grieg about 1908. Greig-Duncan Collection
D. "Seven Ships on the Sea" fragment sung by Jane Gentry in 1916 at Hot Springs, North Carolina; Sharp MS

The version sent to Baring-Gould was only for stanzas. The version he published in Songs of the West was six stanzas and altered in every stanza to have AABB rhyme.

Steve-- thanks for sending me "I Spied a Ship Sailin' on the Sea"- sung by Miss Mutch collected by Gavin Grieg about 1908 in Greig-Duncan Collection.

Here's the logic: Every song with the "I saw a Ship" stanza is Deep in Love and even songs without that stanza but with stanzas from Unfortunate Swain are Deep in Love. Yet "The Water is Wide" is not Deep in Love and it has that stanza. I petition for a change in the established tradition.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Feb 17 - 05:04 PM

John Johnson Ms. Off the top of my head I can't remember this but if it's at the VWML then it's available. I don't know when I'll next be there. Can you tell me more about the ms book?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 01 Mar 17 - 11:18 AM

Steve and all,

There are 52 entries from V. Williams online for John Johnson's MS book (digital copy in Vaughan Williams Memorial Library). John Johnson was from Fittleworth Essex- he was the father of Gladys Stone- you just sent me her "Deep in Love." Apparently he died about in 1940s or 50s. There's no way I could find these songs collected by Johnson at the V. Williams site.

Anyone?

Finished the headnotes to Yon Green Valley and can confirm now that Barry's "Early in the Spring" is the first extant US version and first published version (1908) although it was learned in Ireland: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7r-yon-green-valley-green-valley-.aspx

I have more of the unknown song I need help identifying. It's a Newfoundland song in "Never Had a Word Between Us": Pattern in the Verbal Art of a Newfoundland Woman by Debora G. Kodish, 1981 p. 102.

Down in yon green valley that lies far away,
Where me and my bonny boy spent manys a pleasant day
Where me and my bonny boy spent manys a pleasant time
He soon proved false to Floro on the lovely banks of Bine.

I loves him very dearly, it's more than tongue can tell.
Down in my father's garden he first won the heart of mine.
His heart proved false to Floro on the lovely banks of Bine.

When he came a courting me he promised me he'd wed
And when he had my favor gained was far from me he fled.
His love it flew like morning dew wherever the sun do shine,
He soon forgot young Floro on the lovely banks of Bine.

I loves him very dearly, it's more than tongue can tell.
Down in my father's garden he first won the heart of mine.
His heart proved false to Floro on the lovely banks of Bine.

When I heard this false young man to London had gone away.
I packed up all my jewelry all on that very day.
To flee from friends and parents in search of him to find.
I'll forsake my father's dwelling on the lovely banks of Bine.

Straight way I posted unto fair London town.
I heard my love was married to a lady of reknown.
You well may guess my feelings, I mean no ill design.
Think on unhappy Floro on the lovely banks of Bine.

Down in yon green valley that lies so far away.
Where me and my bonny boy spent manys the pleasant day.
Where me and my bonny boy spent manys the pleasant time.
He soon proved false to Floro on the lovely banks of Bine.

Remember now, we calls to mind, those days are past and gone.
When young unhappy Floro deserted from her home.
To flee from friends and parents and now in sorrow find
Those leathern walls and iron bars far from the banks of Bine.

Sorry it's long and repetitious- I got it from Google Books, no title- I thought it was a version but I'm not so sure. Anyone know this ballad?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Mar 17 - 04:02 PM

Poor Flora on the Banks of Boyne/ Lovely Banks of Boyne.

The only online version I have seen is in the Crawford Collection at the English Ballads part of the Santa Barbera website titled 'Lovely Banks of Boyne'. It's Laws P22. The only oral version I have is from Nova Scotia.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Mar 17 - 04:03 PM

I have several broadside copies but none before c1850.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 01 Mar 17 - 05:39 PM

Hi,

TY Steve. It's interesting that it has the false young man on yon green valley who leaves her-- [same as Yon Green Valley] then she follows him to London- different ballad.

I'll ck it out and see if there's any connection,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 04:30 PM

Hi,

The last related version I am doing a brief study of is "Bury Me Beneath The Willow (Weeping Willow Tree), found in the US, Roud 410.

There are some related English broadsides "Willow Tree" but they seem to not be the direct source and it may be an unknown print version from the US from the mid-1800s possibly based on a British broadside. Here's the study on my site: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7t-bury-me-beneath-the-willow.aspx

There is a thread on this but maybe some new light may be shed. For now its origin is unknown.

Here are some of my headnotes with one text:

The origin of Bury Me Beneath The Willow is currently unknown. It's presumably fashioned after an unknown print version of some ancestor of Died for Love possibly of English origin[1]. The song dates back in the 1800s in the US and has been recorded by a number of early country artists including the Carter Family, who recorded it three times[2]. There are a number of possible antecedents but none are close enough to the popular US song to demonstrate a traceable lineage. What is known is that the ballad has the standard Died for Love theme with, in some variants, the Died for Love ending stanza. It is also associated with two other members of the Died for Love family: The "There is a Tavern/Radoo, Radoo" songs with the line, "I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree" and the "My Blue Eyed Boy" songs which have similar lyrics in the US while one UK variant is titled "The Willow." For these reason I'm including Bury Me Beneath The Willow (Weeping Willow Tree) as Appendix 7T.

This is the plot of the song as told by a woman singer: A maid's lover has abandoned her. Tomorrow was to be their wedding day, but now he is courting another girl. An angel softly whispers that he has been untrue and he no longer cares for her. The singer asks her friends to "bury me beneath the willow... And when he knows that I am sleeping, maybe then he'll think of me."

The identifying stanza, which is sometimes used as a chorus or repeated, is a variation on the "Go dig my grave" ending. One stanza which the Burnett-Rutherford version added at the end, but which the Carters did not use, was:

Upon my grave you'll plant a rosie,
Below my tomb a turtle dove,
To show the world I died to save him,
But I could not win in love.

A standard text was printed in The American Songbag by Carl Sandburg 1927 from Jake Zeitlin, with additional text from verses from R. W. Gordon.

O BURY ME BENEATH THE WILLOW

1 O bury me beneath the willow,
Beneath the weeping willow tree,
And when he comes he'll find me sleeping
And perhaps he'll weep for me.

2 Tomorrow was our wedding day,
But God only knows where he is.
He's gone, he's gone to seek another
He no longer cares for me.

3 My heart's in sorrow, I'm in trouble,
Grieving for the one I love
For oh, I know I'll never see him
Till we meet in Heaven above.

4 They told me that he did not love me,
But how could I believe them true
Until an angel whispered softly,
"He will prove untrue to you."

5 Place on my grave a snow-white lily
For to prove my love was true;
To show the world I died to save him
But his love I could not win.

6 So bury me beneath the willow,
Beneath the weeping willow tree,
And when he comes he'll find me sleeping
And perhaps he'll think of me.

Any texts of versions are welcomed. I'd like to find a direct antecedent, one standard stanza includes a visit by and angel who tells her that her lover is false.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 12:43 PM

Hi,

I'm posting two related broadsides and a US print version:

THE WILLOW TREE

1 O take me to your arms, love,
For keen the wind does blow,
O take me to your arms, love,
For bitter is my woe;
She hears me not, she cares not,
Nor will she list to me,
Whilst here I lie alone to die,
Beneath the willow tree.

2 My love has wealth and beauty-
The rich attend her door;
My love has wealth and beauty,
And I, alas, am poor!
The ribband fair, that bound her hair,
Is all that's left to me;
While here I lie, alone to die,
Beneath the willow tree!

3 I once had gold and silver
I thought them without end;
I once had gold and silver,
And I thought I had a friend.
My wealth is lost- my friend is false-
My love he stole from me;
And here I lie, in misery,
Beneath the willow tree!

Ballads Catalogue 2806 c 18(337), Bodleian Ballads, c. 1815-1855, J. Pollock, North Shields.
____________________

THE WILLOW TREE

1 Don't you remember the vows so tender,
You fondly pledged to me,
When the stars & moon so sweetly shone
'Twas under the willow tree.
You vow'd you'd ne'er deceive me,
And fondly I believed thee,
When the moon shone so sweetly,
Over the willow tree.

2 Why did you say my lips were red
And made the scarlet pale,
And why did I, poor silly maid,
Believe the flattering tale.
I thought you ne'er deceived me,
So fondly I believed thee,
When you vow'd so sweetly,
You'd love no other but me.

3 Did you but know the silent tear
I've fondly shed for thee,
I never close my languid eyes
Unless to dream of thee,
And of joys that are departed,
I think quite broken-hearted,
And your world when last we parted
I love no other but thee.

4 Would I could tear you from my heart,
But that will never be,
Till I lie in the silent grave
Under some willow tree.
Then should you this way wander
You'd heave a sigh and ponder,
In her cold grave lies yonder,
The girl that died for me.

Harding B11 (3284), c. 1813-1838, J. Catnach, London, Bodleian Collection.
____________________________

BENEATH THE WILLOW TREE
"Words Thomas Dibdin" Music Dr. J. B. Herbert

1 Oh! take me to your arms my love,
For keen the wind doth blow,
Oh! take me to your arms my love,
For bitter is my woe.
She hears me not, she cares not,
Nor will she list to me.
She hears me not, she cares not,
Nor will she list to me.
And here I lie in misery,
Beneath the willow, the willow tree.

2 I once had gold and silver,
I thought them without end,
I once had gold and silver,
I thought I had a friend;
My wealth is lost, my friend is false,
My love is stolen from me,
My wealth is lost, my friend is false,
My love is stolen from me,
And here I lie in misery,
Beneath the willow, the willow tree.

Thomas Dibdin. Sheet music, 4/4, for bass solo; 1884, Balmer & Weber, St. Louis
__________________

None of these is the right antecedent but they are close. The unknown print source for "Bury Me Beneath the Willow" may be in the US about 1850 so searching in Bodleian may not help.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 01:08 PM

Hi,

I had a break through on one of the related ballads: "Love is teasing", to read online: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7k-love-is-teasing-love-is-pleasing.aspx

What has been known is the identifying stanza "Love is teasing, love is pleasing" has been found in the 1500s- translated:

[Hey trollie lollie, love is jolly,
A while, (a) while it is new,
When it is old, it grows full cold,
Woe befalls the love untrue.]

Also it's found in Waly, Waly and Jamie Douglas (Motherwell- Child J). Stanzas are found in Waly, Waly, and early related broadsides "Arthur's Seat," circa 1700 and the second, "The Unfortunate Swain," circa 1750. Stanzas are also borrowed from Died for Love (see Lucy Stewart's version).

What isn't know is: the standard UK versions also collected by Jean Ritchie from an Irish woman in the US are based on the broadside Wheel of Fortune.

Here are the four stanzas from Wheel of Fortune:

Wheel of Fortune

When I was young I was much beloved
By all the young men in the country;
When I was blooming all in my blossom,
A false young lover deceived me.

I did not think he was going to leave me,
Till the next morning when he came in;
Then he sat down and began a-talking,
Then all my sorrows did begin.

I left my father, I left my mother;
I left my sister and brothers too;
And all my friends and old aquaintance,
I left them all to go with you.

If I had known before I had courted,
That love had been so ill to win,
I wad locked my heart in a chest of gold,
And pon'd it with a silver pin.

To view online: http://ballads.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/static/images/sheets/20000/19042.gif The last stanza is found similarly in Waly, Waly, and Arthur's Seat.
Wheel of Fortune (see also Christie) dates back to at least the early 1700s (1714-1740) when it was sung by bassist Richard Leveridge (1670-1758) at the Theatre Royal In Lincolns Inn Fields. Not all versions uses the stanzas but the ones collected in the early 1900s in the UK do (see also Jean Ritchie's Irish version).

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 01:32 PM

Hi,

I finished the rough draft headnotes (for now) for Love is Teasin-- wow, it involves a number of songs and ballads:

Waly, Waly,
Jamie Douglas,
Arthur's Seat,
Wheel of Fortune,
Love is Pleasing,
I'm Often Drunk
Water is Wide
What Can't Be Cured
Youth and Folly,
Love is Lovely
Keg of Brandy
O'Reilly From The County Kerry
When First I Came to the County Limerick
(see also: Young Reilly)
Little Sparrow/Young Ladies
Oh What Needs I Go Busk and Braw

Here are my headnotes: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7k-love-is-teasing-love-is-pleasing.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 09:36 PM

Hi,

I wanted to also point out that the US/Canada ballad, Peggy Gordon (Maggie Gordon) that dates back to the early 1800s also has the "Water is Wide" stanza and is also based on "I'm Always Drunk but Seldom Sober." Peggy Gordon does not have Love is Teasin' stanza or the other stanzas from Unfortunate Swain that are part of the the UK "Water is Wide."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:50 PM

My god, you cast your net wide, Richie! Just back from London seeing grandson no.2 arriving.

Once you decide which stanzas are definitely commonplaces you can start rigidly separating the different songs

Are you sure the 'Wheel of Fortune' sung by Leveridge is the same song? There are several songs with this title.

Will start looking at posting your books this week.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 03:57 PM

Hi Steve,

No, I'm not sure the Wheel of Fortune that Leverage sang is the same song- and I should point that out- ty, that a song of that title was sung. I have found a few versions of it and I asked you about Wheel of Fortune in an email when I first started gathering notes and only had the one broadside. You never responded but do you have more info? When I asked you back in January I had over 200 pages of notes all jumbled on one page and over 100 pages on another. I could never go through that whole 200 pages of notes without stopping, fixing and arranging!!! I had to try and work my way out by separating the various versions. Here's a version of Young Ladies from Some Songs Traditional in the United States; Tolman, 1916:

I. I wish I was a little sparrow;
   I'd fly away from grief and sorrow;
   I'd fly away like a turtle dove;
   I'd fly away to my own true love.

2. 'Twas but last night he said to me:
   "I'll take you o'er the dark blue sea."
But now he's gone, and left me alone,
A single maid without a home.

3. Oh grief, oh grief! I'll tell you why:
   Because she has more gold than I;
He takes that other girl on his knee,
And tells her what he don't tell me.

4. I wish, I wish, but all in vain,
That my true love would come back again.
But then I know that will never be,
    Till the green, green grass grows over me.

So there is a good deal of mixing which involves going in different songs. So far I have 20. I'm also helping with other threads to which these songs are related: Peggy Gordon and the already mentioned "Young Ladies/Little Swallow" thread.

It's getting better :)

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 08:29 AM

Glad to hear it's coming together. Do you use the term 'oecotypes/oikotypes'? This is usually where a new song made up from another or others has its own autonomy and has spread orally in the new recognisable form. The obvious example is 'Streets of Laredo' and also I suppose 'The Butcher Boy'. They are much more common your side of the pond but they can be identified over here as well. There are plenty of examples in Greig-Duncan as much rewriting went on in Scotland in the period between 1780 and 1820.

I keep meaning to be helpful but what with other distractions (projects and family) and the fact that you move so fast it's hard to keep up with you.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 11:20 AM

Hi,

Here's my favorite oikotype of Love is Teasin':

Love it am a killin' thing,
Beauty am a blossom;
Ef yuh want tuh get yuh finger bit,
Poke it at a 'possum. [Perrow, VA 1912]

Perhaps it could be renamed "oink"type to include "Pig in a Pen":

Got a pig in a pen,
and corn to feed him on,
and a pretty little girl at home,
to feed him when I'm gone.

As for the Butcher Boy, I'm having trouble tracing its antecedent. There are a half dozen UK versions and a number of early US versions not influence by print. Working on it.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 10:14 PM

Hi,

This version is from Isla Cameron (1927-1980) which was recorded by June tabor and Norman Kennedy under the title "I Little Thocht My Love Wid Leave Me." I don't have Norman's text (Anyone?) which I assume is the same only using Scotch dialect. Cameron said she got it from on of the Fetterangus Stewarts.

I Never Thought My Love Would Leave Me- June Tabor

I never thought that my love would leave me
Until that morning when he came in.
He sat down and I sat beside him;
'Twas then our troubles they did begin.

Oh love is pleasing and love is teasing
And love is a pleasure when first it's new.
But love grows older and grows quite colder
And fades away like the morning dew.

There is a tavern in yon town
And there my love goes and he sits down.
He takes a dark girl on his knee
And tells her what he once told me.

There is a blackbird sits on yon tree;
Some say he's blind and cannot see.
Some say he's blind and cannot see
And so is my false love to me.

I wish my father had never whistled,
I wish my mother had never sung;
I wish the cradle had never rocked me,
I wish I'd died, love, when I was young.

Mainly Norfolk lists it as version of "Love is Pleasing". It's all floating stanzas and I assume "Love is Pleasing" is not the chorus.

Lucy Stewart's version of I Wish has the last three stanzas but not the first two. The first stanza is from Wheel of Fortune. The first two stanzas are usually found in "Love is Pleasing".

How should this be classified? Died for Love? Love is Pleasing? I Never Thought My Love Would Leave Me?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 09:22 AM

Richie,
There are several possible approaches to collections of commonplaces.

1. If they are a complete mixture it's best to treat them as an unique composition.

2. If they have a majority from a recognised autonomous song then classify them with that song noting the additions.

3. For study purposes it is usual to include a mixture as a version of all the songs that contributed to it.

I realise though with songs like this such decisions are far from simple.

When dealing with versions recorded by revival singers like Isla you need to be aware they often mix and match themselves which is why we always try to go back to their sources. Personally I don't include versions by revival singers in my main study index. This is not a qualitative decision as often the redactions of revival singers make superb songs.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 05:32 PM

Hi,

TY Steve.

I do have a system for these but some versions are exceptions.

Isla referred to her source as one of the Fetterangus Stewarts from whom I have two versions already. It seems likely it's traditional but still it's not a specific source. There are two versions based on Isla's version.

Now I have three songs with a first verse from Wheel of Fortune-- two have the Love is Teasin' stanza.

Then I have the revival versions of Love is Teasin', a few of which I'm including but noting that "no informant or source has been named." Usually I don't do it. In this case the origin for several are pubs or folk clubs. The Dubliners, Alex Campbell, Jean Redpath, Dolly MacMahon are a few.

* * * *

I have two versions of this variant that have the Love is Teasin' opening stanza- they are another song but I'm not sure of its antecedent:

Oh Johnnie, Johnnie- From the recitation of Mary O'Donnell, Toberdoney, Dervock, Co. Antrim. Published in 1897.

1. Oh! Johnnie, Johnnie, but love is bonnie,
A wee while just when it is new;
But when it's old, love, it then grows cold, love
And fades away like the morning dew.      

2. Oh! Johnnie, Johnnie, but you are nice, love,
You are the first love that ere I had;
You are the first love that ere I had,      
So come kiss me, Johnnie, before ye gang.      

3. One kiss of my lips you ne'er shall get, love,      
Nor in my arms you ne'er shall lie,      
Until you grant me that one request, love,
That oftentime you did me deny.      

4. All for to grant you that one request, love,      
I might as well on you my heart bestow;
For as good a lover as you may come,
And who can hinder your love to go.      

5. It's love doth come, yes, and love doth go,
Like the wee sma' birds intill their nests;
If it's to tell you all that I know,
The lad's naw here that I love best.      

6. If he was here that's to be my dear
I'd cast those angry frowns away;
If he was here that's to be my dear,      
I'd scarce have power to say him nay,      

7. It's ower the moss, love, ye needna cross, love,
Nor through the mire ye needna ride;      
For I hae gotten a new sweetheart, love,
And you may to choose your ain self a bride.      

8. It's had I known, the first time I kissed you,      
Young woman's heart's love were so hard to win.
I would have locked it all in a chest, love,
And screwed it tight with a silver pin.      

Stanzas 1, 5, 8 are related to the Love is Teasin' songs. Otherwise, it's a different song. She tells Johnnie goodbye because she has a new sweetheart- not the standard "love forlorn" or "Died for Love" theme. A very similar version was collected by Sam Henry.

Any info on this? Not sure what to do with the two songs. Motherwell collected a version of Jamie Douglas in 1825 that has the same 1st stanza.

Anyone know more about this Irish ballad?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 12:51 AM

Hi,

I've nearly finished "Wheel of Fortune (When I Was Young)" here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7u-wheel-of-fortune.aspx

Here are my versions:

Aa. "Wheel of Fortune," broadside Firth c.18(132) from Bodelian Library online [no imprint, no date] 9 stanzas; probably printed by Hoggett (Durham).
b. "Wheel of Fortune," broadside called a "street ballad" in possession of Richard Ford, a London bookseller, dated c. 1840.
c. "Wheel of Fortune- A Fine New Song" broadside from Charles Harding Firth Collection at Sheffield University Library printed by W. & T. Fordyce, 48 Dean St. Newcastle, c. 1840.
d. "Wheel of Fortune," Poet's Box, 6 St. Andrew's Lane Glasgow, dated March 3, 1855. Air- All Around My Hat.
B. Wheel of Fortune- William Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs, Volume 1 (1876) from the singing of an old woman in Buckie, (Enzie, Banffshire) before 1866. Christie added text from a broadside.
C. "When I Was Young I Was Well Belov-ed," sung by Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (1841-1910) of Glasgow who is Rev. J. B. Duncan's sister, c. 1890.
D. "The False Lover." Sung by William Watson of New Byth, collected by Greig. 1908.
E. "When I Was Young," sung by Mrs. Duncan of Aberdeenshire c. 1908.
F. "When I Was Young," sung by David Parrot of Befordshire.
G. "Come, Roll 'round the Wheel of Fortune." The song was recorded near Cumberland Gap, Tennessee, by Glada Gully, a student in Lincoln Memorial University, circa 1932.
Ha. "I Little Thocht My Love Wid Leave Me" sung by Norman Kennedy at a concert in Watertown near Boston on October 23, 1999 that was released in 2004 on his Autumn Harvest CD. About 1963 he learned from Isla Cameron (1927-1980).
b. "I Never Thought My Love Would Leave Me" recorded by June Tabor on "Abyssinians" (1983); her source was Isabel Sutherland who collected this song from one of the Stewarts at Blairgowrie.
I. "The Wheel of Fortune," sung by Tom Anderson, from IMTA site recording: http://www.itma.ie/gd/inishowen/song/wheel_of_fortune_tom_anderson/

If anyone knows about any other versions please post text or the version. "Wheel" is the source of stanzas of "Love is Teasing" and the US versions of "Young Ladies/Little Sparrow". There are several "Died for Love" stanzas mixed in some varaiants.

Comments welcome.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 09:24 PM

Hi,

I've been working on "Fair and Tender Maidens" and today, after my query, Steve Gardham discovered the main antecedent, "The Lady's Address to the Fair Maidens," in his collection. The song, once thought to be of US origin, is now derived from a broadside printed by Angus of Newcastle c.1800. Not only does it have the identifying stanza but stanza 7 has the "sparrow" (swallow) stanza followed by a different "sparrow" (swallow) stanza to conclude the broadside. Here's the text, capitalization and spelling kept as the original:

"The Lady's Address to the Fair Maidens"

1. Come hither, all you pretty maidens,
Take Warning how you love a Man,
Like a bright star in a Summer's Morning
When day appears they are gone.

2. They'll talk and tell you pretty stories,
They'll vow and swear they love you true,
But it is all to blast your Glory
That's all the love they have for you.

3. It's I myself had once a Sweetheart,
He swore he lov'd me as his Life;
But that was only his false intention,
Ne'er to make me his lawful wife.

4. I was in his Eye a precious Jewel,
so tender was his love for me,
He swore his heart did burn like fuel
Whenever he my face did see.

5. But now, alas! that is all over,
He little thinks of what us past;
In Cupid's chains we were bound together,
There to remain while life did last.

6. May the heaven's bless that happy woman,
Who does enjoy my jewel bright;
His Wit and Beauty are more than common,
On him I place my chief Delight.

7. I wish I was a pretty swallow,
That nimbly in the Air could fly,
Then my false-hearted love I'd follow,
Whene'er he talk'd I would lie by.

8. Whene'er he talk'd then I would flutter,
All on his Breast with my tender Wings,
And ask him who it was that flatter'd,
And told so many deluding Things.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:31 PM

Hi,

Just a quick up-date or down-date as the case may be. The Lady's Advice to All Fair Maidens is dated as early as c. 1760 in a collection "Printed and sold in Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, London." Other printings are c.1780 or c.1790.

So it's a down-date :)

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 11:11 AM

I've actually seen and noted a copy of the 'Advice' version at the BL
but didn't have time to note it down other than the reference.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 11:23 AM

Hi,

It would be good to have another copy to compare the text since the title is slightly different (it has "all" in it)- see my last post.

I've roughed in the main "Young Ladies" headnotes here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7ua-young-ladies-little-sparrow.aspx

I'm looking for a version possibly titled "Little Sparrow" by Paddy Tunney of Ireland. It's in his early 1990s book and there's a recording. Anyone?

The American versions are different. The traditional ballad index confusingly doesn't call it a British ballad when it clearly is. Here are my US headnotes so far: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-7ua-young-ladies-.aspx I'm including the US rough draft below since it is short:

* * * *

[The American versions differ from their British counterparts. "Swallow" in most cases has become "sparrow." Although the two core stanzas[1] (the identifying stanza, "Come all ye fair" and the "swallow/sparrow" stanza) are the same, the secondary stanzas are different: in North America some of the secondary stanzas are borrowed from the Wheel of Fortune broadside, other British broadsides and the traditional Love is Teasing and Died for Love songs. Other secondary stanzas are homemade adaptations of the "maid abandoned by a false lover" type which resemble their British counterparts but are different. The US "sparrow" stanzas, instead of the once British "swallow" stanzas, feature a dialogue: the first sparrow stanza begins: "If I were a little sparrow" while the second stanza answers, "But I'm not a little sparrow." This dialogue is not found in the second sparrow stanza of the British antecedent[2] which begins:

Whene'er he talk'd then I would flutter,
All on his Breast with my tender Wings,

This British love song had almost completely disappeared from the UK by the 1900s with only two traditional variants found in Scotland by Gavin Grieg about 1908. Since it was very popular in Appalachia at that time[3] it may be assumed that in the 1700s and early 1800s it was brought over to the Virginia Colony[4] and disseminated westward into the Southern Mountains from Virginia by the early English, Irish and Scottish settlers.

The primary British antecedent is "The Lady's Address to the Fair Maidens" a broadside printed in Newcastle, London and probably Scotland[5] in the later part of the 1700s. The earliest record is c. 1760 where it is found in "The Marybone concert: Being a choice collection of songs" which was "Printed and sold in Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, London." Here are the core stanzas from "The Lady's Address":

1. Come hither, all you pretty maidens,
Take Warning how you love a Man,
Like a bright star in a Summer's Morning
When day appears they are gone.

7. I wish I was a pretty swallow,
That nimbly in the Air could fly,
Then my false-hearted love I'd follow,
Whene'er he talk'd I would lie by.

Stanza 1 is the identifying stanza or "warning" stanza- the maiden who has been abandoned by a false love is warning other maidens about the capricious nature of men. In some versions only the swallow/sparrow stanzas are given and stanza 7 is the second identifying stanza. The whole broadside is given below in the Appendix, Item 1. Besides the two core stanzas are these two secondary stanzas:

2. They'll talk and tell you pretty stories,
They'll vow and swear they love you true,
But it is all to blast your Glory
That's all the love they have for you.

8. Whene'er he talk'd then I would flutter,
All on his Breast with my tender Wings,
And ask him who it was that flatter'd,
And told so many deluding Things.

Stanzas two and eight are occasionally found but reworded. Other stanzas come from the second antecedent, The Wheel of Fortune a British broadside dating c. 1830 but probably much older.

Here are the relevant stanzas from "Wheel" sometimes found in "Young Ladies"-- the entire text is found in Appendix, Item 2.

3. I did not think he was going to leave me,
Till the next morning when he came in;
Then he sat down and began a-talking,
Then all my sorrows did begin.

6 But turn you round, you wheel of fortune,
It's turn you round and smile on me;
For young men's words they are quite uncertain,
Which sad experience teaches me.

7. If I had known before I had courted,
That love had been so ill to win,
I wad locked my heart in a chest of gold,
And pon'd it with a silver pin.

10. But time will soon put an end to all things,
And love will soon put an end to me;
But surely there is a place of torment,
To punish my lover for slighting me.

Several American versions of Young Ladies have as many as two stanzas borrowed from "Wheel of Fortune." Mellinger Henry collected a version of "Young Ladies," his E version, that clearly shows "Wheel" as the secondary antecedent. Here's the text:

"Come, Roll 'round the Wheel of Fortune." The song was recorded near Cumberland Gap, Tennessee, by Glada Gully, a student in Lincoln Memorial University.
   
1. Come, roll 'round your wheel of fortune,
Come, roll around once more for me;
A young man's love is quite uncertain,
My own experience teaches me.

2. Once I had a gay, young lover,
He was my joy; he was my pride;
But now he's going with another,
He's sitting by another's side.

3. 1 must confess I dearly love him;
I kept the secret in my breast;
I never knew an ill about him
Until I learned to love him best.

4. I never knew he was going to leave me
Until one night when he came in;
He sat down by me and told me,
'Twas when my trouble first began.

5. Had I the wings of a little sparrow,
I wouldn't pine nor would I die,
But I would follow my false-hearted lover
And tell him where he told a lie.

6. Had I the wings of a little swallow,
Or had I the wings of a turtle dove,
I'd fly away from this world of sorrow
Into some land of light and love.

7. Now, all you girls, take warning;
Be careful how you love young men,
For they are like the stars of morning,
As soon as daylight they are gone

Henry's version begins with the "Wheel" identifying stanza, rarely found in tradition. Henry's stanza 4 is also directly from "Wheel" showing it is the secondary antecedent of "Young Ladies. The core stanzas 5 and 8 are from the main antecedent, ""The Lady's Address." Henry's second "sparrow" stanza (which curiously is "swallow") is the secondary swallow stanza found in the British broadside The Silver Pin[6]:

I wish I was a little swallow;
And my true love a turtle dove;
Then I would fly from this land of sorrow;
And rest upon some land of love.

This demonstrates the the nature of 'Young Ladies," a love song assembled with floating stanzas from various British broadsides and floating traditional song stanzas from the related "Love is Teasing" (the Waly,Waly family[7]) also with the warning stanza and from the Died for Love songs with the theme of the "maid of sorrow abandoned by her false lover."

_______________________________________________

Footnotes:

1. In this case the core stanzas and identifying stanza are the same. The "sparrow" stanza is the secondary identifying stanza.
2. The primary British antecedent is "The Lady's Address to the Fair Maidens" a broadside printed in Newcastle and London.
3. I haven't counted the number of versions Sharp collected in Appalachia between 1916 and 1918 but it look like there are over 30 versions published and in his MSS.
4. Although the Virginia Colony refers to pre-Revolutionary War Virginia (before 1776), the same area of the James River basin continued to be an area of British immigration after the War.
5. Since two traditional versions were collected in Scotland around 1907 a Scottish print of "The Lady's Address" is likely.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 04:08 PM

Don't be too hard on the Traditional Ballad Index. If they haven't got access to the Madden Collection and recently posted online versions they wouldn't know of the earlier versions.

Tunney to follow.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 07:32 PM

Hi Steve,

You're right, even though they concluded "Come All Ye Fair and Tender Ladies" was of American origin, they didn't know everything but they did list Wheel of Fortune as a related broadside and from that alone it's easy to conclude that "Young Ladies" is British. I'm also confused of the two listings by Roud when clearly these are one ballad - yes the ballad almost disappeared in the UK in the 1800s- and except for Bunting's 1840 Irish fragment, I find no record of it. Greig's two versions (really one, since one is a fragment) are also clearly based on "Lady's Address" and most US versions have three stanzas directly from it.

I hope you don't have any more primary antecedents you're sitting on because that was an important find on your part- and who knows how long you've known that :) At least the info is out now and it can be used- which is all I care about- sharing info to improve understanding.

I'm done with the US headnotes for now: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-7ua-young-ladies-.aspx

Sharp collected over 30 versions of "Young Ladies" (many in his MSS) but the most interesting version, Sharp B, he edited out two stanzas (see his MS). It's going to take some time to put all the versions on my site :)

Thanks Steve


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 10:22 PM

Hi,

TY Steve for sending this.

Here's an Irish version collected by Paddy Tunney which appears in his 1991 book, "Where Songs Do Thunder: Travels in Traditional Song":

Little Swallow

I would I were a little swallow,
I would rise into the air and fly,
Away to that inconstant rover,
And on his bosom I'd live and die.

But feathered warblers I cannot follow,
All pale in pining in woe I lie,
Far away from the arms of my darling,
In love and longing alone to die.

For joy and pleasure we seldom treasure,
When out of measure we love anew,
But love grows colder when we grow older,
Then fades away like the morning dew.

Bunting published the first three lines in 1840 under that title and wrote &c after that-- showing the text continued-- but the rest we may never know.

Although there's a chance this is authentic (Tunney claims to have gotten this from a female singer, no name, place or date known), it seems to be rewritten by Tunney and is suspicious. Here's why:

1. Tunney knows part of this was published by Bunting and his version is exactly the three line Bunting gave- highly unlikely considering the 150 years time difference.

2. Tunney's second stanza is far from traditional- anything is possible but at best it's rewritten. Someone doesn't sing swallow and then "feathered warblers."

3. The last stanza sounds traditional- fits - and is beautiful. It's doubtful that it has been altered much.

So this is possibly the third UK text. It's accepted with reservation.

Anyone else have an opinion?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 03:20 AM

Tunney got a lot of his songs from his mother. Whilst he did embellish some of his songs it may well still be totally oral.

The first 2 lines of the second stanza are absolutely typical of Irish broadsides/eighteenth century pleasure garden material/ Gaelic translation.

Where did you get the text (which page) in Bunting? In my copy all I can see is a tune and I can't sightread anyway.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 03:25 AM

You are correct in assuming I'm sitting on this stuff. Nobody else is interested. The problem is you move far to fast for me. I have other commitments and you don't give me time to check out all my sources. Unlike some people I can't keep them all in my head. Not a criticism, just an observation.

You pointed me at Trinity College broadsides. Have a look at 105 'The Killarney Tragedy'. That should get your mouth watering. Either it's a reprint of an earlier piece or more likely a later rewrite trying to rationalise and tidy up the story!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 09:43 PM

Hi Steve,

Here's the link to the Bunting 1840 text:
https://books.google.com/books?id=OSFUBb9PrjAC&pg=PA100&dq=%22I+would+I+were+a+little+swallow%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8-t7wsNz It's in his song notes.

You need to keep giving me the antecedents you're sitting on- but I like to finish what I start-- at least get it to a point where it's reasonable. So there are 30 different ballads and songs so far in the related Died for Love family (a number of them under Died for Love)- but the end is in sight. I'm just trying to get everything roughed in.

Just look at each version and see if you've left anything off. The study can be improved later.

Did you look at the 311 Irish broadsides? I sent you the link a week ago. Thanks for sending the Greig and Tunney. Look at the Bunting-- it seems unlikely that Tunney's version would be exactly Bunting's. I know it's only three lines but Little Swallow is not well known. I'm accepting it as a version but it seems like Tunney took Bunting's text and finished it- that was my first impression.

I'll look at the 'The Killarney Tragedy'.

Do you think "The Ripest Apple" is a distant "died for love" variant? In Sam Henry it seems that way. It's really just a stanza but it's used with died for love stanzas and in the courting song "Twenty -Eighteen" see Broadwood's English Carols (Barry calls it the Quaker's Courtship)- just a stanza tho. That's probably the last associated stanza/song (not much of a song and obscure).

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 11:22 PM

Steve,

OK, Killarney Tragedy- 311 Irish broadsides- Trinity College- got it. Good find!! Cruel Father and Rambling Boy mixed!! I also found "Early Early by the Break of day" there, a second version- slightly different.

I'll post tomorrow,

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 03:32 AM

Got it now thanks (Bunting). I note online that only parts of the book are available. I have the full book if you need anything from it.

Ripest Apples is one of my Master Titles with lots of variants (Roud 542). I have broadside antecedents from the middle of the 18th century which I'll check out later.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 02:09 PM

Stanzas move freely between these types of songs but I don't think Ripest Apples has anything in common with the theme here other than the odd borrowing of widely used commonplaces.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:19 PM

Hi,

Steve- Let's do Ripest Apple. It has about as much to do with the Died for Love theme as "Love is Teasing" - love gone bad or rotten as it may be. It floats with other Died for Love stanzas.

If you could ck the date on this broadside, I've guessed c. 1850.

From the Trinity College broadside collection comes this Irish version of Cruel Father titled, The Killarney Tragedy which was issued by John F. Nugent Printer, 35 Cook St. Dublin c. 1850s. Here's the text in full:

The Killarney Tragedy

1. Come all you men and Maiden's fair,
Unto these lines now lend an ear,
There's not a word of this you'll hear,
But each couple courting will shed a tear.

2. Down by the lakes of Killarney side,
It was there young Sally she did reside,
She was courted by her young Johnny dear,
But soon her father he came to hear.

3. Now when her father he came to know,
Like a man distracted straightway did go,
Unto his desk where his pistols lay,
And swore her Johnny he'd shoot next day.

4. Young Sally hearing her father say,
He would kill Johnny upon the next day,
Straightway she went and made no delay,
Until she came where her true lover lay.

5. Oh rise up My Johnny, and go away,
To some Lonesome Valley-- Make no delay,
For my father stamped and he bitter swore,
That he'd have you bleeding, all in your gore.

6. Oh Johnny, Johnny, I love you well
I love you better than tongue can tell,
I Love you well, but I dare not show it
Since my cruel father he came to know it.

7. Houses and Lands Johnny father has for me,
All of them you'll gain if you come with me,
At your request Love, that never shall be,
Until apples grow on an ivy tree.

8. Like a Maid distracted straightway she went
And spent that night in great discontent,
And every tear that fell from her eyes,
For my Johnny Green I will surely die.

9. Her father he being out late one night,
Johnny inquired for his heart's delight,
Upstairs he went and the door he broke,
And found her hanging with her own bed-rope.

10. He called for a knife to cut her down,
And then in her bosom a note was found,
That the whole world may plainly see,
I loved this Man but he did not love me.

11. Now since young Sally did end her life
Johnny stamped and he took a knife,
He pierced his heart and the blood did pour,
And embraced young Sally all in his gore.

12. Come dig our grave both Long and deep,
With a marble stone then to cover it,
Place in the middle a white turtle dove,
To let the world know we died for love.

13. So all young Men and Maidens fair,
I pray take warning by this sad pair,
It was sly Cupid that did pierce his heart,
Which this couple their lives to part.

This has many elements from Died for Love songs from "Till an apple grows on an ivy tree" to "Come dig our grave both long and deep." The first two stanzas are an introduction, the third is typical "Cruel Father" stanza while 4 and 5 develop the plot. Stanzas 6-10 are Cruel Father/Rambling Boy with a twist. Johnny finds her body (instead of her father) and stabs himself (similar to Silver Dagger) so the broadside ends with a double suicide. This version is unique and it adds possibilities to what is known. The plot, although developed, loses credibility when she offers him houses and land if he'll just go away with her but he rejects her (typical of Died for Love) then kills himself after she's dead (not typical of Died for Love). If he really cared so much why wouldn't he just go away with her?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 04:11 PM

Robertson's 'Rambling Boy would appear to be the source.

My love he came late in the night
Seeking for his sweetheart's delight
He ran up stairs the door he broke
And he found her hanging by a rope.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 05:24 PM

Hi,

The Robertson is the only other version where her sweetheart finds her and cuts her down. However, the rest of Killarney Tragedy is different that the Robertson and the Robertson has nothing to do with Cruel Father which the Killarney clearly does. There are at least two other Rambling Boy broadsides I don't have the complete text, one is Irish, the Goggin broadside. Perhaps they may have a similar stanza.

I'm ready for a slice of the Ripest Apple, not too ripe please.

By the way I just got my copy of--
Southern Harvest: English Folk Songs from the Hammond and Gardiner Manuscripts
Originally selected and edited by Frank Purslow
Revised by Steve Gardham
Foreword by Martin Carthy MBE
330 pages
ISBN 978 0 995747 30 2
Including the words and music for nearly 300 songs

I like the woodcut on the cover too. Great job Steve!!!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 06:44 PM

Hi,

This is what I have "Ripest Apple" is found in Love is Pleasing (several instances), as below in the related broadside "I'm Always drunk/Water is wide" here's the main example:

* * * *

Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society, London - Volumes 1-10 - Page 28, 1904

"The Ripest of Apples."

Folk Song, Arranged by A. CORBETT-SMITH.

I HAVE had this little song in my collection for some considerable time, and I regret that I have no note as to where it was collected. It is, I feel sure, of Irish origin, and so far as I remember it is one of those noted in America. In rendering Folk Songs such as this in which the opening verse is repeated at the end I have found it most effective to sing the last verse mezza voce and without accompaniment, merely striking the tonic chord pp at the close.

"Oh, the ripest of apples they must soon grow rotten,
And the warmest of love it must soon grow cold,
And young men's vows they must soon be forgotten;
Look out, pretty maiden, that you don't get controlled.

The seas they are deep, and I cannot wade them,
Nor have I, nor ever, the wings for to fly.
I would that my love were a jolly boatman
To ferry me over, my love and I.

(Third verse, repeat verse 1)

* * * *

I have it floating to the Greer collection in NC. i have it related to Died for Love end of "I drew my ship into the harbour"

"Come back, come back, my only true love,
   Come back, my aim one, and ease my pain;
Your voice I knew not, your face I saw not,
   Oh John my heart will break in twain."

The ripest apple is soonest rotten,
The hottest love is soonest cold;
Seldom seen, is soon forgotten,
True love is timid, so be not bold.

A brisk and braw stanza is found in Died for Love.

* * * *

It's found in courting songs of Roud 146, as a floater.

Not enough to give Ripest Apple any identity. There are a couple more instances I haven't checked on,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 05:55 PM

Hi,

I finished the short study of "Ripest Apple" and am posting it below. The stanza is found in several songs from the Died for Love family. It's importance is incidental and only in a few versions of Love is Teasing does it show any importance; even then only two lines of the stanza are used. It is regularly found as a stanza found in Roud 542 (Madam, I Have Come to Court You). Somehow the Traditional Ballad Index has titled Roud 542 -- Wheel of Fortune (Dublin City, Spanish Lady)-- which is mind boggling, if you consider that Wheel of Fortune has nothing to do with it. Here's the study online: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7v-the-ripest-apple-ripest-of-apples.aspx As always comments are welcome-- Richie

* * * *

7V. The Ripest Apple (Ripest of Apples)

A. "The Ripest of Apples," from Mr. H. C. Mercer, of Philadelphia, and he describes it as a 'Down East' coast song from the neighborhood of Portland, Maine. JFSS 1900.
Ba. "The Ripest of Apples" from Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society, London - Volumes 1-10 - Page 28, 1904; collected and arranged by A. Corbett-Smith. [no source given]
b. "The Ripest of Apples," from Sam Henry, March 7, 1936 as published in Sam Henry's Songs of the People, p. 383 by Gale Huntington, ‎Lani Herrmann - 2010 [No source given]

* * * *

[At the outer limits of the Died for Love family of songs is the stanza "Ripest Apple" or "Ripest of Apples" which has been found as:

1. A floating stanza in various Died for Love songs including "Love is Teasing" (Roud 1049), "Young Ladies" (Roud 451) and other relatives.
2. The first stanza of a short song titled "Ripest of Apples" made up of a few related stanzas. The related stanzas are associated with Roud 146 which has the "Water is Wide" or "Waly, Waly" (jolly boatsman) stanza found originally in the broadside "I'm Always Drunk." There is no Roud number for this rare version.
3. A stanza usually found in "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" which is Roud 542 and is known under a variety of names and variants. Two antecedent broadsides of "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" were found by Steve Gardham which date 1760 and 1776.[1] The "Ripest Apple" stanza appears in the 1776 broadside under the title "A New Song" (Yonder Sits a Handsome Creature). The stanza usually comes near the end of all the variants of "Madam, I Have Come to Court You", although it has come first and been used as a title[2]-- causing confusion. No attempt will be made to explore the variants of "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" in any great depth-- only the use of the floating stanza "Ripest Apple" as attached to that ballad will be pertinent to this study.
4. A floating stanza in other songs. Here are three examples: 1) "The Ripest Apple" in the Brown Collection of NC Folklore; 2) the print version, "The Jolly Sailor's Wedding;" and 3) "I Drew my Ship into the Harbour," a hybrid song with opening stanzas from the Drowsy Sleeper family.

Every appearance of the Ripest Apple stanza in not given in this study and only a few are used as examples of how the stanza has been varied. Since "Ripest Apple" appears as "Ripest of Apples," "Ripest Apples" and with a variety of other minor differences, only "Ripest Apple" will be used as a general term for the stanza or song. Suggesting that the short fragment of a song, "Ripest of Apples" (see number 2 above), my A and B, is the only use of "Ripest of Apples" would be incorrect since various stanzas use a variety of "Ripest Apple" words. The first extant use of the stanza is in a 1776 chapbook under the title "A New Song" (Yonder Sits a Handsome Creature). Here it is the 5th stanza and appears:

Ripest apples are the soonest rotten
Hottest love is the soonest cold
Young men's love is soonest forgotten
Maids take care be not too bold.

"A New Song" (Yonder Sits a Handsome Creature) is the first example of Roud 542 a group of songs known under a variety of titles-- as "The Quaker's Wooing," as "Twenty Eighteen" the first words of the chorus, as "The Handsome Woman," as "Oh No, John," as "No Sir," as "Spanish Lady" and a variety of other titles. A stanza from "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" dates this song to the late 1700s in the US. In 1822 John Randolph of Virginia wrote his niece and asked if she had heard a ballad with the following verse that he had heard as a child[3]:

What care I for your golden treasures?
What care I for your house and land?
What care I for your costly pleasures?
So as I get but a handsome man.

The song is about an unattractive young man who who sees a beautiful maiden in a garden and tries to court her by offering her gold, house and land but all she wants is a handsome man. Other examples of its use in this large song family will be presented later.

* * * *

Even though the "Ripest Apple" stanza dates back to 1776 in "Yonder Sits a Handsome Creature" it's unknown if there are other early sources of this stanza associated with the "jolly boatman" stanza which follows:

The seas they are deep, and I cannot wade them,
Nor have I, nor ever, the wings for to fly.
I would that my love were a jolly boatman
To ferry me over, my love and I.

Here's the stanza from "I'm Always Drunk and Seldom Sober," a song-sheet printed by John Pitts in London (Johnson Ballads 868) around 1820s:

The seas are deep and I cannot wade them,
Neither have I wings to fly,
I wish I had some little boat,
To carry over my love and I.

With modification this stanza became the "water is wide" stanza published by Sharp[4] under the title "Waly, Waly,' in the early 1900s. These two stanza form the fragment, Ripest of Apples found in Portland, Maine in the late 1800s[5] and also in Ireland about the same time[6]. The Maine version is a three stanza fragment that was collected from Miss Bichel by Mr. H. C. Mercer, of Philadelphia who called it a " 'Down East' coast song, from the neighbourhood of Portland, Maine[7]." Mercer added:

The adage seems to be used in many different ways, but there is little doubt that these three verses which Miss Bichel is going to sing to you are but a fragment of some longer ballad; as they stand, however, they make a very pretty song.

Here is the very pretty song, my A version:

The Ripest of Apples.

O the ripest of apples, they must soon grow rotten,
And the warmest of love, it must soon grow cold;
And young men's vows they must soon be forgotten,
Look out, pretty maiden, that you don't get controlled.

The seas they are deep and I cannot wade them,
Neither nor have I, the wings to fly.
But I wish I could find, some jolly, jolly boatsman,
To ferry me over, my love and I.

Oh I wish that me and my love was a sailin',
As far as the eye, could discern from the shore.
A sailin' so far, across the blue ocean,
Where no cares nor troubles, wouldn't bother us no more.

The last line of the "Ripest Apple" stanza is different. In the popular courting song the last line is standard, "Maids take care be not too bold." Now let's compare the "Ripest Apple" stanza found in "The Jolly Sailor's Wedding[8]," a print ballad dating back to the early 1800s:

Ripest apples, soonest rotten,
Hottest love, soonest cold;
Too fond maids are easy counselled
Though they're slighted when they're old.

The author of "The Jolly Sailor's Wedding" does not rhyme the third line and the last is also different. Let's look at the Ripest Apple stanza in a version of Love is Teasing by the Dubliners' text as sung by Ronnie Drew and recorded in 1963:

I Wish (Till Apples Grow)- by the Dubliners 1964, sung solo by Ronnie Drew. Transcription R. Matteson 2017.

I wish, I wish, I wish in vain,
I wish, I wish, I was a youth again
But a youth again I can never be
Till the apples grow on an ivy tree.

I left me father, I left me mother
I left all me sisters and brothers too
I left all me friends and me own relations
I left them all for to follow you.

But the sweetest apple is the soonest rotten
And the hottest love is the soonest cold
And what can't be cured love has to be endur-ed love
And now I am bound for Americ-ka.

Oh love is pleasin' and love is teasin'
And love is a pleasure when first it's new
But as it grows older sure the love grows colder
And it fades away like the morning dew.

And love and porter makes a young man bolder
And love and whiskey makes him old and grey
And what can't be cured love has to be endur-ed love
And now I am bound for Americ-ka.

In this case the first two lines of Ripest Apple have been joined with a line from "What Can't Be Cured" and a different ending line. This version has been covered by Marianne Faithfull and the Chieftains was popular in Irish Pubs in the late 1950s and 1960s[9]. This has also been titled, Love is Teasing, a song related to "I'm Always Drunk" (see Newfoundland version Love is Easin' and Keg of Brandy). The recent Irish versions of "Keg of Brandy," originating from an arrangement by Robbie O'Connell[10], have the "Ripest Apple" stanza.

In Cecil Sharp's MSS[11] there is a Ripest Apple stanza in I Wish I were Some Little Sparrow (False True Lover). It was sung by two girls, December 26, 1907 in Knott County, Kentucky and was supplied to Sharp by Olive Dame Campbell. Here's the stanza:

The ripest apple soon are rotten,
The truest love is soonest cold;
A young man's vows are soon forgotten,
Pray my pretty little miss don't be too bold!

This is the same stanza found in "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" songs and is the best known "Ripest Apple" stanza. The same stanza opens a song collected by I.G. Greer that was published in Brown Collection[12]. There notes and text follow:

The title line of this occurs in a song of the general character of 'Waly waly, but love is bonny' reported from Maine (JFSS 145); otherwise it has not been traced.

'The Ripest Apple.' Reported by I. G. Greer, Boone, Watauga county, probably in 1915.

1 The ripest apple the soonest rotten.
The purest love the soonest cold.
A young man's words are soon forgotten;
Oh, my love, don't be so bold.

2 Let my name be kindly spoken
When I'm far away from you;
And, although the vows be broken,
I will fondly speak of you.

3 In the past we loved each other,
Loved each other fond and true,
And I know that I shall never
Love another as I loved you,

4 Though I wander on forever
Seeking lands beyond the sea.
Well I know that I shall never,
Never find the like of thee.

In this case Greer's "Ripest Apple" stanza has been attached as the first stanza to a 1877 song, "Let My Name be Kindly Spoken," by S. C. Upham. In the 1882 book, "Northumbrian Minstrelsy" edited by John Collingwood Bruce, John Stokoe, the Ripest Apple stanza is given as part of the ballad " I Drew my Ship into the Harbour" which opens with stanzas from the Drowsy Sleeper family. Then comes a stanza of the Ripest Apple:

The ripest apple is soonest rotten,
The hottest love is soonest cold;
Seldom seen, is soon forgotten,
True love is timid, so be not bold.

Again, this is the stanza as found in the "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" songs. It is followed by a stanza unrelated to either song.

* * * *

My B version, a two stanza fragment of A, was collected in Ireland in the late 1800s and was published in the Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society, London, in 1904. Here is my B version with notes:

"The Ripest of Apples."
Folk Song, Arranged by A. Corbett-Smith

I HAVE had this little song in my collection for some considerable time, and I regret that I have no note as to where it was collected. It is, I feel sure, of Irish origin, and so far as I remember it is one of those noted in America. In rendering Folk Songs such as this in which the opening verse is repeated at the end I have found it most effective to sing the last verse mezza voce and without accompaniment, merely striking the tonic chord pp at the close.

"Oh, the ripest of apples they must soon grow rotten,
And the warmest of love it must soon grow cold,
And young men's vows they must soon be forgotten;
Look out, pretty maiden, that you don't get controlled.

The seas they are deep, and I cannot wade them,
Nor have I, nor ever, the wings for to fly.
I would that my love were a jolly boatman
To ferry me over, my love and I.

(Third verse, repeat verse 1)

This version shows that A is probably Irish and descended from an earlier unknown print version in Ireland or the UK. Additionally another Irish version Bb, was reported by Sam Henry on March 7, 1936. It was published in Sam Henry's Songs of the People, p. 383 by Gale Huntington, Lani Herrmann, 2010. Henry's version is identical to B and no source was provided.

As a final example, here is a version of titled Ripest Apples collected from Copper family[13]:

   Ripest Apples

Ripest apples soon gets rotten,
Hottest love it soon gets cold.
Young man's love is soon forgotten.
Since the girls have been so bold.

Twenty, eighteen, sixteen, fourteen.
Twelve, ten, eight, six, four, two, none.
Nineteen, seventeen, fifteen, thirteen.
Eleven, nine, seven, five, three and one.

Though I never went to college, but I heard the poet say:
Twenty, eighteen, sixteen, fourteen, twelve, ten, eight, six, four, two, none.

This is another variant of a "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" song. It only has the "Ripest Apple" stanza and the Chorus. There are a large number of "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" songs-- most have the "Ripest Apple" stanza.

This study has covered the short "Ripest of Apple" songs, the relationships with Waly Waly/I'm Always Drunk, appearances of the stanza in the Died for Love extended family of songs and other some other stanzas found randomly in other ballads and songs.

R. Matteson 2017]

______________________________________________

Footnotes:

1. Found last in a group of three songs dated 1776 which are: 1) Montrose Lines, or, I'll ever love thee more; 2) Woo'd and Married and A' 3) A New Song. The 'A New Song' is from British Library, item 1346 m 7, Broadsides 1 to 42, this being item 29, 3 songs of which this is the third. Here's Steve Gardham's description of the volume: Large sheet music-size volume containing unusual broadsides, some set out as mid-18th century broadsheets, others as in the Brereton style of several slips together on one sheet. Most take a double page up and look as if they are enlarged copies of originals or else specially printed matter for collectors as most are very well finished and printed. Nearly all are fully dated with day/month/year 1775/6. No imprint though although the dating is very useful.
An earlier version without the Ripest Apple stanza is "The Lovely Creature" printed at Aldermary Churchyard by one of the Dicey/Marshall dynasty and is probably about 1760. It comes from British Library 11621 e 6, items 1 to 26, a variety of songsters mostly material sung at the various London pleasure gardens such as Vauxhall. Most of the songsters are the latest offerings and have about 20 songs in each songster. This one is from item 11 The Tom Tit Part 1, of 17 songs and this is the 4th song. 'The Lovely Creature'.
2. The Copper Family version is titled, "Ripest Apple" (see text immediately above). The recording is on VT115 (see last footnote).
3. "John Randolph of Roanoke, 1773-1833: A Biography" by William Cabell Bruce - 1922.
4. "Oh Waly, Waly", from Cecil Sharp, Folk Songs From Somerset. Third Series, 1906, p. 32/33.
5. "The Ripest Of Apples," from JFSS by Fuller Maitland 1900, p. 45, note, p. 29; contributed by H. C. Mercer of Philadelphia sometime is the late 1800s-- no date given.
6. Corbett-Smith's version, published in Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society, London, in 1904, was "in my collection for some considerable time"-- dating it back to the late 1800s.
7. From JFSS article by Fuller Maitland 1900, p. 45, note, p. 29.
8. The Jolly Sailor's Wedding is found online in "Real Sailor-songs" edited by John Ashton. It appears in a chapbook published in Newcastle upon Tyne, about 1800 which it titled: Drowned mariner; or, the Low-lands of Holland hath twin'd my love and me. To which are added, the jolly sailor's wedding. The sporting hay-makers. Absent Jockey.
9. Roy Palmer (Everyman's Book Of British Ballads; London: Dent, 1980) gives a tune that he says was "popular in folk clubs which is where he first heard it." Steve Gardham also said he first heard the song sung in pubs in England in the 1960s.
10. Reported by WTV Zone and other online sources as arranged from tradition by Robbie O'Connell, Liam Clancy's nephew, and recorded on his 1987 album Love Of The Land, on Green Linnet Records, Danbury, Connecticut.
11. The MS version is at Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at VWML) (CJS1/11/88) at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library online.
12. From Brown Collection of NC Folklore III, about 1956 (online at Internet Archive).
13. From Veteran Recording VT115, where the notes report: In 'The Copper Family Song Book - A Living Tradition' (1995) Bob Copper, while relating to his family's version of this song, says that this was the shortest song Jim (Copper) knew and he had developed a terrific speed in the chorus '…Twenty, eighteen, etc.', and thereby frequently qualified for the free pint of beer offered by the landlord of the local inn to be first man to sing a song." See also Mabs Hall recording collected by Mike Yates.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 25 Mar 17 - 08:44 PM

Hi.

I'm working on US/Canada versions of Butcher Boy. The mystery is how the Butcher Boy originated since it has the suicide and few UK versions of Died for Love/Brisk Young Lover have the suicide.   

A single stanza from New York Folklore Quarterly - Volume 3, 1947 that appeared in an article, The Ballad of the Butcher Boy in the Rampano Mountains (by Anne Lutz), may prove to be a significant piece of the puzzle forming the origin of the popular "Butcher Boy" variant. The notes and stanza by Lutz follow:

    ONCE THERE was in London a butcher boy who made love to a girl and left her, and she hanged herself. At least there is an English version of "The Butcher Boy" that begins:

            In London town where I did dwell,
            A butcher boy whom I knew well
            He courted all my life away,
            And now with me he will not stay.

    That was sung for me by an old lady, now over ninety, who learned it as a child in Birmingham, England.


Even though this is just a standard single stanza, the fact that even one stanza of Butcher Boy was sung in Birmingham, England in the early 1860s is very important. It predates the US "Butcher Boy" broadsides c.1861 and seems to prove that "Butcher Boy" originated in England and was brought to the US. The standard belief is that the Butcher Boy originated in the US from an English variant of Died for Love/Brisk Young Sailor. Therefore versions of the Butcher Boy found in the UK originated in the US and crossed back over. Since Lutz's informant was in her 90s- say 94- and Lutz collected it in c.1946 - the informant would have learned it in Birmingham about 1860 when she was 8 years old. The odds of her being influenced by the c. 1860 broadsides are slim.

Lutz's simple explanation for the origin of the ballad makes sense-- that "once there was in London a butcher boy who made love to a girl and left her, and she hanged herself." These questions about the origin remain: Why haven't more early traditional or print versions with "Butcher Boy" surfaced in the UK? And- why is the suicide not present in versions of Died for Love/Brisk Young Lover, the obvious predecessors of Butcher Boy in the UK?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Mar 17 - 04:49 AM

Interesting points, Richie, The answer may lie in those British versions thta have a similar first stanza. 100


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 10:20 PM

Hi,

TY Steve.

I'm convinced that Jersey (Jersey City) has nothing to do with the state "New Jersey" although it's not necessarily the Isle of Jersey but that makes more sense. I've been swapped with teaching, playing, my crazy girlfriend, fishing, writing other articles, rental properties and such.

I'm still plugging away at the US versions (hundreds) and I'll start posting a few. The first is from Vermont. Two stanzas are clearly from the UK (not usually in Butcher Boy): the last two lines of stanza 1 is from Brisk Young Sailor and the last stanza is I Wish I Wish modified. It seems likely that "Butcher Boy" at least originated in the UK but disappeared and only a half dozen UK versions have surfaced. Once it made it to the US/Canada it became popular. That's the direction I'm heading- enough versions in the UK have the suicide that are not The Cruel Father or Rambling Boy to make this presumption. I'm still at it- nothing certain yet.

Butcher Boy- from The Flanders Collection online as sung by Amos Eaton at S. Royalton (Vermont) on August, 12, 1945. Complete transcription R. Matteson 2017.

In New York Jersey there did dwell
A butcher boy and I knew him well
He courted me with his own free will
Where e'er he goes I love him still.

There was a girl in that same town,
My true love goes and he sits him down
He takes her too upon his knee
And he tells to her what he once told me.

Oh mother oh mother you do not know,
What pain and grief and sorrow, woe,
She took a chair and she set her down,
With pen and ink to write it down.

With every word she said, "Oh dear,"
With every line she dropped a tear,
She went upstairs to make her bed
And nothing to her mother said.

Her tender father came home at noon,
Inquired for his daughter soon,
He went upstairs and he burst the door
And he found her hanging to the floor.

He took his knife and he took her down
And in her bosom these words he found:
You'll dig my grave both wide and deep,
Lay a marble stone at my head and feet,
And on my bosom a turtle dove,
To show to the world that I died of love.

I wish I wish but I wish in vain,
I wish she were alive again,
But alive again she ne'er will be,
Till an orange grows on an apple tree.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 17 - 01:01 PM

I think we already posed the possibility that a Scottish version of the family gave rise to Butcher Boy. If that is plausible then it might be worth identifying which Scottish versions might have been involved. I still think at least some of the English versions collected since WWII derive from the American.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 04 Apr 17 - 07:08 PM

Hi,

Steve, one of the important Scottish versions is sung by Sam Davidson 1863–1951 of Auchedly, Tarves Aberdeen; a farmer of North Seat Farm and well known singer who learned ballads from his farm hands. This dates 1907 when Greig collected it but is probably from the late 1800s.

1. A brisk young sailor came courting me,
He stole frae me my liberty;
He stole it with my ain free goodwill,
And I canna deny but I love him still.

2. Such a foolish young girl was I
To lay my love on a sailor boy;
A sailor boy altho' that he be,
He aye pro'ved true when he courted me.

3. As lang as my apron was to my toe
He followed me thro' frost and snow;
But now my apron's to my knee
He cares nae mair for my company.

4. There's an alehouse in yonder town
My love gangs and he sets himself down,
He takes another fair maid on his knee,
And he tells her what he has done to me?

5. There's a blackbird on yonder tree,
Some says it's blind and canna see,
I wish it had been the case with me,
When first I fell in his company.

6. I wish, I wish but I wish in vain,
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be
Till an apple grows on an orange tree.

6. I wish my baby it was born,
And set upon its nurse's knee,
And I myself were dead and gone
And the long green grass growing over me.

7. I saw her love come in last night[1]
To search for his own heart's delight,
He ran upstairs, the doors he broke,
He found his love hanging on the rope.

8. He's ta'en his knife and he's cut her down,
And in her breast this note it was found:
"I promised to be this young man's wife,
And for his sake hae ta'en my life."

9. "You'll go dig my grave both long, wide and deep,
Put a marble stone at my head and my feet,
And in the midst a turtle-dove,
To let all the world know that I died in love."

1. dialogue abruptly shifts to 3rd person

What's clear here is the suicide is part of the UK tradition, and there are other versions. "Butcher Boy" is not used in the Scottish versions with the suicide.

* * * *

I'm looking at the New England versions now and they are very similar to many of the UK versions. Davidson's version (posted above) has the "Brisk Young Sailor" stanza not found in the US as such. The Helen Hartness Flanders Ballad Collection has several versions that sound like UK versions. This corresponds fairly closely to I Wish, I Wish.

Butcher Boy - voice performance by Mrs. John Fairbanks at N. Springfield, Vermont. Dated 10-05-1939.

I Wish I wish I wish in vain,
I wish I was a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be,
Til an orange grows on an apple tree.

When I wore my dresses low
He followed me through frost and snow,
Now I wear them to my chin,
He'll pass the door, and won't stop in.

Here's another example (first four stanzas given) from Flanders with the Davidson's "Blackbird" stanza. The informant is Irish:

Butcher Boy - voice performance by William Webster at Wakefield (Rhode Island). Classification #: LAP24. Dated 11-13-1952.

In Jersey City where I dwelled,
A butcher boy I loved so well,
He courted me my heart away
And then with me, he would not stay.

There is a house right in this town,
Where my love goes she sits him down,
He takes a strange girl on his knee,
And tells to her what he once tells to me.

Oh grief, oh grief I will tell you why,
Because she has more gold than I
Her gold will melt and silver fly,
She'll see the day she'll be as poor as I.

There is a bird, right in this tree,
Some say she's blind and she cannot see she
I wish to the Lord it's the same with me,
Before I fell into his company.

These are transcriptions I've made that are unavailable online and are not listed in Roud index. The titles were given by Flanders and may not be local titles.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 17 - 03:16 AM

The classification is compounded by the fact that there were very likely many hybrids, some that have occurred relatively recently (early 20th century). Some of this is likely due to sharing tunes. The long Scots version here shows some evidence of being a hybrid of TBYS and TRB.

My shorthand system of study/comparison involves designating each stanza in the group a letter and then listing them side by side. With most ballads this throws up interesting patterns, but the laments are much more difficult and patterns are few and far between. Much closer analysis is needed.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 15 Apr 17 - 11:48 AM

Hi,

Here's an archaic version from Storytellers: Folktales & Legends from the South edited by John A. Burrison; 1991. This was sung by Lem Griffis of Fargo in south Georgia, born about 1896 and died in 1968. He was Georgia's best-known traditional storyteller. By his recollection it is dated back to the early 1800s:

Lem Griffis: Well, I know another one, but I declare. My great-grandparents brought it from across the ocean, when they came over hyer. An' I think I still remember that song, all of it. But I know, my grandmother useta sing it years an' years ago.

Surprisingly, Lem's grandfather Samuel B Griffis, Jr was born way back in 1794 in Montgomery County, Georgia. So it dates back to the early 1800s from his grandmother alone. His great-great-grandfather John Griffis served in the Revolutionary War with the "Swamp Fox" Francis Marion in the backwaters of South Carolina (see: Mel Gibson's portrayal of Marion) and was killed in action about 1781 by Cornwallis' soldiers-- so Lem's recollection that his great-grandparents brought it "from across the ocean" wasn't accurate. John Griffis' father came to South Carolina about 1735.

Butcher Boy- sung by Lem Griffis of Fargo, Georgia (on the edge of the Okefenokee Swamp) collected about 1966 and dates back to the early 1800s from his grandmother.

In London City where I did dwell,
A butcher boy I loved so well;
He's courted me my heart away
An' along with me he will not stay.

He goes downtown an' he sets 'isself down,
He takes a stranger upon his knee.
He tells to them things he won't tell me,
An' don't you know that it's grief to see.

He courts them shy, I can tell you why,
Because they have more gold than I.
But gold will melt and silver will fly,
But conscious love can never die.

It was late one night when her father came home,
Inquiring where his daughter had gone
She's gone away her life to destroy;
She's hung herself for the butcher boy.

He ran upstairs and the door he broke,
And found her hanging on a rope
He taken his knife and he cut her down,
And in her bosom this note was found:

I love you Johnny, I love you well,
I love you better than tongue can tell.
I love my father an' mother too,
But I don't love them like I do you.

I wish an' I wish, but it's all in vain
I wish I was made [a maid?] over again.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 17 - 11:40 PM

Hi,

The mystery of "There is a Tavern in the Town," begins with an African-American Creole song called "Radoo, Radoo, Radoo" [hereafter "Radoo"]. In a letter to Rosa Campbell Praed(1851-1935) dated July 1885, Justin McCarthy(1830-1912) refers to Bessie O'Connor who: created a sensation at Mrs. Jeune's the other night. . .I close with some words of the refrain of a song I used to hear long ago in the Southern States of America sung by negroes and of which I am reminded by one of Mrs. O'Connor's songs--"And May the World go well with you!"

Irish writer and Nationalist Justin McCarthy must have heard "Radoo" during a lecturing tour in the United States, c. 1869 and it was also known by American Bessie O'Connor, who independently wrote the music. The words and music appeared in The Right Honourable (1886) written by both Justin McCarthy and Rosa Campbell Praed.

In an article the next year that appeared in the Pall Mall Budget: Being a Weekly Collection of Articles, Volume 35, 1887-- it states, "We have received from Messrs. Francis Brothers and Day [London publisher] a copy of a well known old negro song called "Radoo; or, May this world go well with you." The words are said to be from a Creole song, and the music is arranged by Bessie O'Connor, with accompaniments for the piano and banjo. As Mr. Justin McCarthy says of it," Nothing could be more sweet, simple, and pathetic," and any one who sings to the accompaniment of his or her banjo, or who desires a characteristic and very pleasing simple negro song, cannot do better than procure Mrs. T. P. O'Connor's.

"Radoo" was also published in London (see in Bodleian collection) in Marsh's collection of songs about 1883.

It is clear by this information that "Radoo" predates William H. Hills, c.1883 "There is a Tavern in the Town" by many years and was used by Hills to make his arrangement.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 12:13 PM

Do any of the pre-Hills versions contain stanzas from the 'Died for Love' family? How many pre-Hills versions have we got access to, if any? And where does all this leave the several contemporary assertions that the song derives from a Cornish folksong, i.e., a version of 'Died for Love'. Is it likely that Hills married the 2 songs together to form 'There is a Tavern'? Does the word 'radoo' derive from 'adieu' as we previously thought, or is the 'adieu' a rationalisation of a nonsense word? When I get your opinions on this I will check all of the early versions I have.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 05:17 AM

Hi,

Another song incorporated into the 2nd part of Chorus of William Hills "There is a Tavern in the Town" is "Fare Thee Well" which was written c.1835 by Robert Gilfillan, who was born in Dunfermline, Fifeshire, on the 7th of July, 1798, and was the second of three sons. It begins:

Fare thee well for I must leave thee,
But O! let not our parting grieve thee;
Happier days may yet be mine,
At least I wish them thine- believe me!

While the first part of the Chorus of Tavern is the first stanza of Radoo:

Radoo, radoo, kind friends, radoo, radoo, radoo,
And if I never more see you, you ,you,
I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree,
And may this world go well with you, you, you.

The "Adieu/Radoo" stanza itself also appears in a different setting in tradition and was collected by John Stone in Virginia in 1916. This variant includes the floating stanzas of Child 78 "Lass of Roch Royal" (just the "Who will shoe my pretty little feet" parts). It was published in Traditional Ballads of Virginia as an appendix of Child 78 "Lass of Roch Royal." Here's what Davis says in TBva:

"In other variants of the same combination song (see below)- this "Adieu" stanza appears after the "shoe my foot" stanzas or - and more generally- as a chorus." It seem unlikely that "Tavern" had any influence on the text which appears:

[Adieu] collected by Mr. John Stone. Sung by Mrs. Nathaniel Stone, of Culpeper, Va. Culpeper County Nov. 15, 1916. With music.

1. "Adieu, kind friend, adieu, adieu,
I cannot linger long with you;
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land.
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:10 AM

Hi Steve,

I assume the only documented pre-Hills version would be "Radoo" by Bessie O'Connor that was heard independently by Justin McCarthy in the US about 1869 and according to them it is a Southern US "plantation Song" of African-American "Creole" origin.

Two of the three stanzas are commonly found in the Butcher Boy:

Shall I be bound, shall I be free, free, free,
And many is de girl dat don't love me, me, me,
Or shall I act a foolish part,
And die for de girl dat broke my heart, heart, heart.

Give me a chair and I'll sit down, down, down,
Give me a pen, I'll write it down, down, down,
And every word that I shall write,
A tear will trickle from my eye, eye, eye.

In the Butcher Boy the "Shall I Be Bound" stanza is common the last two line are changed. The "Give Me A Chair" stanza is the writing of the suicide note.

There are several traditional versions with the "Adieu" stanza that probably pre-date Hills and are independent of "There's a Tavern." In the Davis version of Adieu collected in Virginia it has one stanza:

2 "Must I go bond and you go free?
Must I go bond and you go free?
O, must I act the foolie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?
O, must I act the foolie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?"

Other traditional stanzas include: 'Blue-eyed Boy.' Secured in 1909 by Miss Hamilton from Julia Rickman of the West Plains High School.

Must I go bound while he goes free?
Must I love a fellow when he don't love me ?
Or must I act the childish part
And love a fellow when he broke my heart?

Adieu, adieu, kind friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang myself on a green willow tree
Unless he consents to marry me.

and:

"Adieu." Communicated to Miss Hamilton in 1911 by Shirley Hunt of the
Kirksville Teachers College. Note the 'eavesdropping' introductory stanza, a favorite opening for the pastourelle type of street ballad.

As I walked out one evening fair
To view the plains and take the air
I overheard a young man say
He loved a girl that was going away.

Chorus: Adieu, adieu, my friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang my harp upon the willow
And bid this lonesome world adieu.

Go bring me back that blue-eyed. boy,
Go bring my darling back to me,
Go bring me back the one I love
And happy I shall always be.

Must I be bound and you go free?
Must I love one that don't love me?
Or must I act a childish part
And stay with one that broke my heart?

Sometimes you think you have a friend
And one you always can depend;
But when you think that you have got,
When tried will prove that you will not.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:42 AM

Hi,

As in the UK several versions Butcher Boy/Died for Love are hybrid with "Constant Lady" a 1686 broadside. Here's one from LOC recording AFS 00871 B01 (AFS Number) sung by Mrs. Emma Dusenbury 1899-1990 and Laurence Powell. Recorded by John Lomax. Published in Midwest Folklore - Volume 9 - Page 23; 1959.

The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire (Roxburghe Ballads I, 260-2 and VIII 635-6)- also titled "Oxfordshire Tragedy" by Chappell, c. 1686. "Constant Lady is also the antecedent of "Love Has Brought Me To Despair." Dusenberry's version does not have stanza 4-- the "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" stanza. Instead it is a hybrid of Butcher Boy and Constant Lady with text resembling Constant lady beginning in stanza 12:

12. The Lady round the meadow run,
"And gather'd flowers as they sprung;
Of every sort she there did pull,
Until she got her apron full.

Through the Meadow She Ran- Sung by Mrs. Emma Dusenbury (1899-1990) of Mena, AR and Laurence Powell in August, 1936.

In yonders grove I made my way,
Some handsome country to survey,
I heared a damsel sigh and say,
The man I love is far away.

"There is a house in yonders town,
My love he goes and there he set down.
He takes another girl all on his knee,
O, isn't he unkind to me.

"He courts her and I know why;
Because she has more gold than I.
Gold will melt and silver will fly,
But constant love will never die.

Through the meadow she ran,
A-pickin' every flower that sprung
She picked; she pulled of ev'ry hue
She picked; she pulled red, white and blue.

"Down on the flowers I make my bed;
The heavens above my coverlid.
I wish to God my task was done
And set beneath the rising sun.

Go dig my grave on yonders hill;
Place a marble stone at my head and feet
And on my breast a turtle dove
To show the world I died of love.

"And at my feet a lollar lea[1],
To show the world he don't love me.
And at my feet a lollar lea,
To show the world he don't love me.

1. laurel leaf

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:12 PM

Wow! Curiouser and curiouser!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:09 PM

Hi,

Be out of town for a few days. Here's another version with a "Constant Lady stanza:

[From Max Hunter Collection; Cat. #1473 (MFH #37)

This is a rare US version with a stanza from the c. 1686 white-letter broadside titled "The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire." Published by Broadwood as:

There is a flower, I've heard them say,
Would ease my heart both night and day;
I would, to God, that flower I could find,
That could ease my heart and my troubling mind!]


Butcher Boy- As sung by Bill Ping, Santa Rosa, California on September 20, 1972.

VERSE 1
There is a flower I heard say,
It's called heart ease, both night an' day
And if that flower I could find
Would ease my heart an' please my mind.

VERSE 2
In Jersey City where I did dwell
Lived a butcher boy that I loved quite well
He courted me, my heart away
And then with me, he would not stay

VERSE 3
There is a tavern in this town
Where he goes in an' sits him down
He'll take a strange girl on his knee
An' tell to her, what he once told me.

VERSE 4
O grief, O grief, I'll tell you why
Because she has more gold than I
The gold will melt, the silver'll fly
In time of need she's as poor as I

VERSE 5
She went upstairs to make her bed
Not one word to her Mother said
Her Mother said, your acting queer
What's troubling you, my daughter dear?

VERSE 6
O, Mother dear, you need to know
My fate an' sorrow, grief an' woe
But give me a chair an' set me down
With pen and ink to write more down.

VERSE 7
An' when her Father, first came home
Where is my daughter, where's she gone
He went upstairs an' the door he broke
An' he found her hanging by a rope

VERSE 8
He took his knife an' he cut her down
An' in her bosom, these lines he found
O, what a foolish girl am I
To hang myself for a butcher boy

VERSE 9
Go dig my grave, both wide an' deep
Place a marble slab, at my head an' feet
An' o'er my gave place a turtle dove
To show this world that I died for love.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:23 PM

Hi,

This version is from: Korson, Pennsylvania Songs & Legends pp.48-49. One of several rare versions that include text (two stanzas) from The Constant Lady and the False-Hearted Squire, a broadside of 1686. Compare to Dusenbury's version above.

I Wish in Vain- Sung by F.P. Provance of Fayette County, Pennsylvania in 1943. Collected by Samuel P. Bayard, with music.

1. I wish, I wish, I wish in vain,
I wish't I was a maiden again,
A maid I ain't nor I never will be,
Through all this world and eternity.

2. There is a tav'ren in yon town;
He rides up and he sits himself down,
He takes the strange girl on his knee,
Oh, don't you think it's a grief to me?

3. A grief, a grief, I'll tell you why:
Because she has more gold than I.
But gold may sink, and silver may fly,
But constant love will never die.

4. I would to God my babe was born,
Sat smiling in his papa's arms,
And I was dead and in my grave,
And green grass growing over me.

5. Through the meadow this fair maid ran,
Gathering flowers as they sprang.
She plucked and pulled of every kind
Until she got her apron full.

6. Then these garden flowers was her bed,
The heavens was her coverlid;
And there she lies no more to say,
Till wakened at the Judgment Day.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 10:13 PM

Hi,

Here's a US example from: Ballads and Songs from Utah; Hubbard, 1961. His notes follow. This was collected from the author's mother the year before she died. Since she was born in 1861 it surely dates well before 1800.

This seems to be from an Irish immigrant. This is typical of UK standard versions of the early 1900s and since this version has no suicide and the apron verses-- it shows the similarity of many US versions which seem to have been brought over untouched in the early 1800s. The important used of "butcher boy" should be noted.

THE BUTCHER BOY

For a discussion of the history of this ballad widely known in England and America, its popularity and the variations in the story, see the headnote in Belden, pp.201- 207.

Butcher Boy- sung by Salley A. Hubbard of Salt Lake City, Jan. 4, 1947.

In Dublin Town, where I did dwell,
A butcher boy I loved him well.
He courted me full many a day;
He stole from me, my heart away.

And when I wore my aprons low
He courted me through rain and snow,
But now I wear them to my chin
He passes by and never calls in.

There is a house all in this town
Where my true lover sets him down,
And takes another girl on his knee.
And don't you think it's grief to me?

A grief to me and I'll tell you why,
Poor girl has got more grief than I;
But her gold will melt and her beauty fly,
And in time she'll be no more than I.

I wish to God my babe was born
And prattling on his father's knee,
And I, poor soul, was dead and gone,
And the green grass growing over me.

Go dig my grave both wide and deep,
And place two round shots at my feet,
And on my breast put a turtle dove,
That the world may know I died for love.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
From: Richie
Date: 30 Apr 17 - 05:09 PM

Hi,

This thread is running long and I'm going to start one last thread for this study which will be:

Origins: Died for Love sources: Part IV

Part IV will wrap it probably up. I'm finishing up the North American versions of Died for Love/Butcher and will start presenting some conclusions. I'm still working on various Appendices as well.

Thanks Steve Gardham for sticking with theses threads and providing comments and suggestions. Thanks also to those who have provided versions and comments.

Please make posts to the new thread as Joe will close this one soon,

TY

Richie


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