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overused rhymes

Andy7 03 Mar 17 - 04:59 AM
Nigel Parsons 03 Mar 17 - 05:03 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Mar 17 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars links 03 Mar 17 - 05:38 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 03 Mar 17 - 06:13 AM
Will Fly 03 Mar 17 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,henryp 03 Mar 17 - 10:54 AM
leeneia 03 Mar 17 - 02:18 PM
JHW 03 Mar 17 - 03:24 PM
Snuffy 03 Mar 17 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,henryp 03 Mar 17 - 04:22 PM
Andy7 03 Mar 17 - 04:48 PM
Joe_F 03 Mar 17 - 05:55 PM
Andy7 03 Mar 17 - 06:16 PM
leeneia 03 Mar 17 - 09:59 PM
GUEST,Tinker from Chicago 04 Mar 17 - 01:31 AM
Will Fly 04 Mar 17 - 03:47 AM
Will Fly 04 Mar 17 - 03:51 AM
Andy7 04 Mar 17 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,DTM 04 Mar 17 - 07:18 AM
Donuel 04 Mar 17 - 10:20 AM
Gda Music 04 Mar 17 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Grishka 05 Mar 17 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,Desi C 06 Mar 17 - 06:31 AM
GUEST,henryp 06 Mar 17 - 09:18 AM
Donuel 06 Mar 17 - 09:52 AM
Steve Gardham 06 Mar 17 - 02:37 PM
mayomick 07 Mar 17 - 10:22 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Mar 17 - 01:24 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Mar 17 - 02:12 PM
Steve Gardham 07 Mar 17 - 02:17 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Mar 17 - 06:25 PM
Joe_F 07 Mar 17 - 09:26 PM
Snuffy 08 Mar 17 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 08 Mar 17 - 04:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Mar 17 - 06:56 AM
Joe_F 08 Mar 17 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,henryp 08 Mar 17 - 05:35 PM
Tattie Bogle 08 Mar 17 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,henryp 09 Mar 17 - 07:45 AM
Gda Music 09 Mar 17 - 09:04 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Mar 17 - 09:12 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Mar 17 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,henryp 09 Mar 17 - 10:49 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Mar 17 - 01:44 PM
GUEST 10 Mar 17 - 12:54 PM
Andy7 10 Mar 17 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,henryp 12 Mar 17 - 06:30 PM
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Subject: overused rhymes
From: Andy7
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 04:59 AM

I confess to having used the rhyme 'love/above' in one of my songs.

Should we aim always to avoid such overused rhymes when writing songs or poetry?

Or should we accept that sometimes nothing else will do the job, and just try to use them in a way that doesn't sound too clichéd?


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 05:03 AM

tune/moon/spoon/June
The rhymes can become clichéd, but depending on how well they are put together they can still have the power to move.
One or two clichéd rhymes won't spoil a good song. The rhymes were original once.

They can also be used for comic effect, depending on what you're looking for.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 05:36 AM

I'll never accept such things as long as I'm still walking and talking.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars links
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 05:38 AM

I try to avoid them together in my songs but don't always succeed . But as indicated above , if the rest of the words in the line are imaginative and well put together the corny factor is minamalized


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 06:13 AM

It helps if you can make the wording and/or the tune focus the attention on the beginning of the line so that the rest of the line sort of peters out and nobody really notices obvious rhymes.

Robin


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 06:48 AM

My role model for song rhymes is Cole Porter's "Brush Up Your Shakespeare"...

If she says your behavior is heinous
Kick her right in the Coriolanus


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 10:54 AM

Si Kahn will go over his songs - and take perfect rhymes out.

So I'm happy to go along with this;

Christmas comes but once a year
For poor if not for rich 'uns
And spare a thought for turkeys too
This year why not try pigeons?


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: leeneia
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 02:18 PM

There aren't many words that rhyme with love, so I can forgive rhyming love and above. But I think that if you rhyme mountain and fountain, you should have to make a contribution to a fund for impecunious poets --as a form of atonement.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: JHW
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 03:24 PM

Please don't rhyme shirk with work. It turns up in songs but nobody ever says shirk in real life.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 04:18 PM

So only a berk or a jerk would say shirk to irk you?


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 04:22 PM

As the June light
Turns to moon light
I'll be on my way.

Written by (a very young) Paul McCartney

And Jackson Browne deserves a prize for finding so many words to rhyme with Pretender.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Andy7
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 04:48 PM

"But I think that if you rhyme mountain and fountain, you should have to make a contribution to a fund for impecunious poets --as a form of atonement."

Gulp! A small contribution is on its way ...


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Joe_F
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 05:55 PM

Far worse is to reuse the same rhyme within a song, as with "laughed" & "chaffed" etc. in "The Old Armchair". That sort of thing is embarrassing.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Andy7
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 06:16 PM

Haha, that song also uses 'life/wife' and 'roam/home' in the same verse!


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: leeneia
Date: 03 Mar 17 - 09:59 PM

Good point, Andy.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,Tinker from Chicago
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 01:31 AM

I can live without "waiting" and "anticipating."


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 03:47 AM

To be honest, re-reading this thread, all these objections to rhymes are pointless.

It won't matter a jot as to whether or not a selection of rhymes have been used several times in ballads or song. There are many things worse in lyrics and verse than plain repetition with no hint of contrition. As long as there's as there's wit I don't give a shit - and in all likelihood it will be huge hit!


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 03:51 AM

A huge hit!


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Andy7
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 04:51 AM

It does matter a bit, if a song that's a hit has some corny old rhymes used before countless times. But if the writer has tried, with rhymes too contrived, for original verse, it can often sound worse.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 07:18 AM

"Back - railroad track"
"Charm - arms"
"Heart - part"
"Together -forever"
"Wait - gate"
"Don't go - love you so"
"You - blue"

.... ad nauseum.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 10:20 AM

That's the spirit Will.

Why rhyme in twos when three or more rhymes are more fun like 'The ass hole in that castle treats his vassals like shit'.

Even profane rhymes have their place for power and fun.

THERE are plenty of good things to be said for repetition.

Even musically, the mind expects and anticipates repetition.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Gda Music
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 12:21 PM

I am not so sure if the following original lyric entitled *There`s a song* can be regarded as being relevant to this "overused rhyming" thread. I composed it with others in 1952 and have always considered it although brief and a bit repetitive to be rather unusual by having no rhyming lines included.

There`s a song
That brings back memories to me
Of days gone by
A song of loves that have been broken
And friendships long since past
There`s a song
That helps me reminisce
Recalls to me when I was young
That`s the song I`ve lived for
And when I die it will live on

There`s a song
That means so very much to me
I can`t forget
A song of loves that have been broken
And friendships long since past
There`s a song
That takes me back some time
Those yesteryears were long ago
That`s the song I`ve lived for
And when I die it will live on

GJ


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 07:29 PM

The problem is not the rhymes as such being overused, it is the cliché thoughts that tend to come with them. If your song has a new and original message well told, the rhymes are likely to sound equally fresh.

There are in fact rhymes (such as the "Coriolanus" above, which of course I love) that are funny or clever in themselves, and which like all other sorts of joke or witticism can be told to the world only once.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 06:31 AM

Roses Are Red
It's Said All The Time
One night even call It
An Overused Rhyme


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:18 AM

One off rhymes

What do you get when you kiss a guy?
You get enough germs to catch pneumonia
After you do, he'll never phone ya
I'll never fall in love again

Hal David

When ev'ry night the set that's smart is in-
Truding in nudist parties in
Studios
Anything goes

When Rockefeller still can hoard en-
Ough money to let Max Gordon
Produce his shows
Anything goes

Cole Porter

Sometimes you can write too cleverly
Are there some rhymes to be used neverly?
Well, who knows?
Anything goes


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:52 AM

henry p - Spot On


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:37 PM

Wonders never cease!
Please give us some peace!
Who let in the Rhyme Police?


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: mayomick
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 10:22 AM

ballads were all composed using "cliched" rhymes .Cliche rhymed the bells in the subconscious hell where balladeers used to dwell ,very much went for the bluesmen as well


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 01:24 PM

And popular songs of all genres are full of cliches full stop. Let's hear it for cliches!! The cliches have it.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 02:12 PM

i was quite pleased when i rhymed arsehole with castle


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/well-done-liz


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 02:17 PM

Al, so you're the bugger who wrote.....

And me father flogs his arsehole in the Elephant and Castle,
Oh, we're the cleanest family in the land.

Tune 'Road to the Isles'


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 06:25 PM

Must be bloody posh where you come from, Al. Where I'm from, castle rhymes with hassle and tassel. You'll be telling me next that you pronounce garage "grarge" and Bath "Barth."


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Joe_F
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 09:26 PM

Oh, my name is Diamond Lilly,
I'm a whore in Piccadilly,
And my mother runs a brothel in the Strand,
And my brother sells his arsehole
To the guards in Windsor Castle --
We're the finest fucking family in the land.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 03:06 AM

Windsor Castle? There's posh. In the version I learned he sold it south of the river:

Oh, he's got a sister Lily,
Who's a whore in Piccadilly,
And his mother is another in the Strand,
And his brother sells his arsehole
Round the Elephant & Castle -
They're the finest fucking family in the land


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 04:42 AM

Overused rhymes
Songwriters crimes


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 06:56 AM

then there was time i rhymed dawg with Van Gogh

Jack Hudson singing.


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/buster-the-line-dancing-dawg


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 05:20 PM

There was once a young lady named Maud,
A pious society fraud.
    At tea, I am told,
    She was proper and cold,
But on the veranda -- my gawd!


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 05:35 PM

Beans could get no keener re-
Ception in a beanery
Bless our mountain greenery home!

We could find no cleaner re-
Treat from life's machinery
Than our mountain greenery home

Lorenz Hart, trying his hardest/at his most trying


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 05:46 PM

Bad rhymes work well in comic songs IMHO,and apparently this is one of my biggest sins!And I'll overuse them as often as I like!
e.g. in my "Puffin Song":
Six, seven, eight, nine, ten or more, his beak is heavy laden,
It's even harder now to fly, when he is just so weighed-down.

Or rhyming "Royal" with "Coyal" (call)

And I do love internal rhymes as in the post by Donuel above: Robin Laing has a good few examples in his songs,e.g, in "Punters":
And the rats and the voles went back into their holes for some paracetamols.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 07:45 AM

Spencer the Rover is an interesting example;

In Yorkshire near Rotherham he had been on his rambles,
Being weary of travelling he sat down to rest.
At the foot of yonder mountain there runs a clear fountain;
With bread and cold water he himself did refresh.

As discussed on Mudcat, rather oddly, it appears to have lost some internal rhymes;

It tasted more sweeter than the gold he had wasted,
More sweeter than honey and gave more content.
But the thoughts of his babies lamenting their father
Brought tears to his eyes and caused him to lament.

His children came around him with their prittle-prattling stories,
With their prittle-prattling stories to drive care away.
Now they are united like birds of one feather,
Like bees in one hive contented they'll stay.

Perhaps the words once were;

More sweeter it tasted than the gold he had wasted,
More sweeter than honey and gave more content.
But the thoughts of his babies lamenting their father
Brought tears to his eyes and caused him to lament.

His children came around him with their prittle-prattling stories,
With their prittle-prattling stories to drive care away.
Now they are together like birds of one feather,
Like bees in one hive contented they'll stay.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Gda Music
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 09:04 AM

Gilbert O`Sullivan with his 1971 vocal *Nothing Rhymed* (inc lyrics) --- sheer genius!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW2fUrK-j1M

GJ


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 09:12 AM

Henry
The internal rhyming is pretty random and I'd say there is a strong likelihood that's how it was written. Although there are slight differences pretty much the same 7 stanzas were printed throughout England from c1820 onwards.

Kendrew of York's copy has an interesting variation in st. 6.
'So we unite together like ants we will have her. Like bees.......

The internal rhyme pattern in earliest versions runs:
St 2 line 3.
St 4 line 3
St 5 line 1, line 3
St 6 line 3

However there are internal assonant rhymes in other lines
'posed/rover' 'used/usion' 'proach/sort' 'rive/wife' 'round me/story' and the odd bit of alliteration 'Rotherham/ramble'


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 09:26 AM

Whilst accepting the possibility of oral tradition intervening I would say the Kendrew version is likely to be closer to the original as 'birds of one feather' is much stronger then 'ants we will have her' so the likelihood of change has surely got to be 'ants' to 'birds' rather than the reverse.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 10:49 AM

Thank you, Steve.

Am I foolish to think that it could probably be attributed to a single composer?


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 01:44 PM

In what way could it not be attributed to a single composer? In this case in particular I don't think the very few minor alterations to some versions could be counted as new compositions, but some people might argue otherwise.


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 12:54 PM

Lots of Irish songs including Cork and New York


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: Andy7
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 01:57 PM

That rhyme reminds me of a Limerick of mine:

There once were some models from Ayr
Who said, "With our shows, our clothes pair;
"We've worn Yorkwear in York,
"And Corkwear in Cork,
"Now we're where we wear Warewear ... where? Ware!"


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Subject: RE: overused rhymes
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 06:30 PM

Although she appears on TV sometimes, LeAnn isn't one of the overused Rimes.


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