What Good Is Mudcat?

Subject: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 12:15 PM

It is immense good. It is incumbent among comedians and musicians to speak truth to power.
Then there is the historic data to preserve correctness.

As fractious as opinion may be, it is only opinion and we take it or leave it.

Then there are the national and international treasure of people we may meet here.
Golden ages of Mudcat come and go with those who pass on, but what they have passed on stays with us.

What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 12:16 PM

Subject: Us and Them
From: Jerry Rasmussen - PM
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 08:36 AM

Given a choice, would you rather be one of "us," or one of "them?" If you're one of us, you reinforce everything we believe in. You agree with us. That's very comforting. It's good to know that you're right. If you're one of them, you're misguided at best. More likely, you're looked upon as insensitive (in contrast to how sensitive we are,) selfish and downright delusional. You aren't logical. Given a choice, I'll take neither of the above. I've never been much for group-think.

It really doesn't make much difference what the criteria are for being one of "us." It can be being a Christian, being a Liberal (which is code for Democrat, as we all know Republicans can never have a liberal thought in their head.) gay or straight. The important thing is that you are not one of "them." I find all of this extremely stifling. When I am on a Christian web site and someone starts ranting about homosexuals, I quietly exit stage left.
When people seem to be talking to hear themselves talk rather than to carry on a respectful conversation, I make for the nearest exit, left or right.
When people on here talk as if you have to be a Democrat and be in lock step with every Liberal position to like folk music, I think of the wonderful friends I have who are thoughtful, generous, loving and socially responsible who are Republican, including some who used to frequent Mudcat. Just when did folk music become the property of Democrats?

People bemoan the fact that folk music isn't as popular as it was in the 60's (or claim that it is.) For the brief moment that folk music had national popularity in the fifties and sixties, it was folk music, not Democrat music. Sure, there were important political songs that fueled great movements in helping to forge alliances for social change. But if you look at the body of folk music, only a small percentage of it is political. When you have to be a card-carrying Democrat to be welcomed into the folk community you immediately eliminate half the folk.

Many years ago when I was running a folk concert series I noticed when I booked a bluegrass group, I got a completely different audience. At the end of a bluegrass concert, I asked the audience to tell to me on the way out why they never came to the folk concerts. The most common complaint I received was, "I don't want to sit around all evening listening to someone complain." I protested strongly that folk music is not primarily protest music, but to no avail. Like most perceptions about the difference between "us" and "them," "Them" was stereotyped in the most negative, simplistic way. I wrote an article titled Rednecks versus Protest Singers with tongue in cheek that was a collection of quotes of cliches and judgments I'd heard from the folk and non-folk communities. They sounded as simplistic and inflexible as those I hear about gays and non-gays, Christians and non-Christians, Liberals and non-liberals.
The minute you define yourself as not being someone else, you get intellectually lazy. So, do you want to be an intellectual, or a non-intellectual.

And the game goes on.

There's a much better choice than "us" or "them." It's called "we."
This country has gotten into the mess we have in large part because
"us" and them" has become "us" versus "them."

I bet Bascom Lamar Lunsford was a Republican. He was a lawyer, for God's sake! The only work he ever did with his hands was sticking them in someone else's pockets. Sounds stupid, don't it. And it is.
But no more foolish than the endless quest to divide people into warring factions.

What do you think?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 12:17 PM

Folk music should rightfully be a vehicle for bringing people together in harmony. There are tribal divisions in folk music and the "us" and "them" are exacerbated by
those who have a "dog in that hunt". There are those who want folk music to be their private little sinecure and exclude "outsiders".
There are those like the BNP or some factions of the bluegrass scene who use the music to further their political and ethnic prejudices.
Then there are folk snobs. (Oh yes there are!)

Music ideally is the language of healing as Tommy Sands says so beautifully in his song. There are those who have been at the forefront of this ideal such as Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Judy Collins and others who are lesser known. I think Jerry that this is what has connected us to folk music, that it is the music of the human condition, that we can accept emotionally, psychologically and in other ways. It's about people and those who really get it have a reverence for human life.

Frank Hamilton

http://mudcat.org/Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=2691363

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 12:20 PM

It is important to be reminded of the obvious, the fundamentals of why WE are here.

What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 02:23 PM

Over the years I have been posting, above the line has been helpful, informative, generous, a wonderful means of disseminating and gathering information.

Sad to say that below the line it has degenerated in some part into a slanging match .............. before anyone castigates me, I know, I too am guilty, Mea Culpa.

Even taking that into consideration it is a vehicle for good.

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 02:44 PM

"I bet Bascom Lamar Lunsford was a Republican. He was a lawyer, for God's sake!"
He objected to benefit concert for Woodie Guthrie in his home town - an indication of his politics, I would have thought.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: WHAT GOOD IS MUDCAT ?
From: JHW
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 03:49 PM

Somewhere when I joined I think there was a condition saying you were not permitted to discuss Mudcat on Mudcat

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 06:34 PM

Hi, JHW. The prohibition is against thread discussion of Mudcat editing policy. Common sense dictates that we moderators not discuss or defend our editorial actions in a public forum, so it's not fair to allow attacks on what cannot be defended. Questions about moderation policy should go to Max, to me, or to any moderator you might know.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 06:40 PM

Who needs mods! We will fix it, Raggytash! See Labour thread!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 07:20 PM

mudcat above the line is really the only meeting place for those of us in folk music without delusions of innate superiority. when i die, i don't want a funeral but i'd like it announced on the cat.

there is such diversity.

i think most of us have managed (even idiots like me) to internalise the Dylan line - you're right from your side - i'm eight from mine.

down belowthe line....well basically the baddies have won.

there is just no acceptance that the other guy might be a law abiding decent chap, who just happens to have lived a life that gives him a different viewpoint to you. no respect. just abuse.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 07:43 PM

Too dismal, Al. We are working on a non-mod solution. Just you wait and see!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 08:09 PM

If I had the innate talent to sing AND play I would be above the line more than below but I do not, so I am mostly a below the line kind of guy. Playing Irish fiddle is every bit as hard as Bach, if not harder. I can do only one thing at a time. There are a few exceptions like chewing gum and walking.

An unattractive voice with heart is certainly effective but I am too embarrassed to go there. Dylan had neither an effective or heartfelt voice but wrote damn good songs.

Would I trade a so called 6th sense for full musical skills? There are days I would. You could say I am stupid but there are other things that redeem my existence.

I could, like some others, grow my ear hair, pull my pants up to my armpits and complain about the government full time in Florida.
Guys like that seem surprised that there are people different from them. I have an answer for them - the gift of tolerance amidst the work that needs to be done to evolve world culture.

The simple reason why some people are continually combative is not because they are bullies, It is because they were once VICTIMS with great suffering. Coming to terms with that is something we would all wish they successfully do.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 09:33 PM

Yeah great.. mudcat a hippy love fest..

Donny.. use your superior intelligence to investigate why imdb has just burned/ deleted years of user forum data base.

the worst crime of library burning since aLEXANDRIA..

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 09:41 PM

WE ARE BORN ARSEHO.ES.. WE TALK SHIT

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 09:45 PM

keyboard went a bit wonky..
mudcat is a nexus for arseholes who think they are more intelligent than they are..

but we do like good music

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: ollaimh
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 10:58 PM

without mudcat i wouldn't have understood how deeply and profoundly engrained racism and class bigotry are in anglo culture

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 11:14 PM

mudcat is non stop death...

obit after obit...


this is not a happy place to attract new young people....

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 11:44 PM

yes i suppose we are racists and class bigots, and that unfortunately is our culture.

and the thing about those strands in our culture - they have a million different manifestations.

that's why its such a giveaway when you find people on mudcat pronouncing themselves untainted by predjudice and qualified to denounce others.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Mar 17 - 11:50 PM

nearly 5.00 am .. you still up big Al..??

I'm in a life is shit mood..

but you are one of the few mudcatters I respect... warts and all...

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:29 AM

Subtle as a brick BigAl but well put !

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:33 AM

I think I said elsewhere that it can be considered a care in the community program.

:D tG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:48 AM

I doubt if anyone is untainted by prejudice. Some people just better at seeing it for what it is and trying their best to make sure it does not affect their everyday dealings with other people.

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 04:12 AM

"yes i suppose we are racists and class bigots, and that unfortunately is our culture."
No it isn't Al
My generation was brought up to regard foreigners as inferior and dependent - a mixture of our history of foreign wars and an Empire that depended on exploiting weaker countries - that had nothing to do with 'culture' - it was political (and to some degree, religious) manipulation from the top.
British people, while often holding racist views, are naturally tolerant when it comes down to one-to-one contact (my experience anyway).
Come an economic or political crisis and out come the flag-waggers putting the blame on THOSE BLOODY.... WHOEVER - TAKING OUR JOBS AND HOUSES AND LUSTING AFTER OUR WOMEN - Mosley, Powell, The National Front, The British National Party, Ukip..........
They are the racists, or they have a vested interest in our blaming others for their cock-ups.
I have no intention in making a feature of this - not here anyway, but as you have brought this up before, I though it needed getting out of the way.
Ideally, Mudcat is a place to discuss this, but - too many personal agendas
Ah well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 05:50 AM

"without mudcat i wouldn't have understood how deeply and profoundly engrained racism and class bigotry are in anglo culture"

Ye gods, he's even having a pot at concertina players now! Mind you, I once knew a bigoted dobro player...

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 07:59 AM

yes! play a melodeon or Wheatstone and you'll be as tolerant as Jim.

not in our culture!...half the architechtural glories of England were built with slave money, the national anthem is racist....we even cling to the DEF as the monarch's title, all the crown jewels weren't picked up on Bargain Hunt...we looted them from everywhere that was unwise enough not to kill the first settlers.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 08:48 AM

Exactly, Al. What most people are trying to do is replace that mindset but there are some who would have us back there in the blink of an imperialist eye. Which is why we must guard against seeing those from different cultures as being somehow inferior. Casting a group of people as being criminals or anything else because of where they were born is simply wrong.

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 08:53 AM

Casting them as Catholics or Muslims (other brands are avaiable) because of where they were born is just as wrong. There is no such thing as a Catholic child or a Muslim child.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 08:59 AM

There are a few exceptions like chewing gum and walking.

I think the original quote was "fart & chew gum". Which makes more sense as an insult. IMNSHO

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 09:16 AM

Learning.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 09:36 AM

"I bet Bascom Lamar Lunsford was a Republican. He was a lawyer, for God's sake! The only work he ever did with his hands was sticking them in someone else's pockets. Sounds stupid, don't it. And it is.
"too simplistic and unfair and untyrue", he worked as a teacher, and did a lot of useful folklore collecting
Bascom Lamar Lunsford was born at Mars Hill, Madison County, North Carolina in 1882, into the world of traditional Appalachian folk music. At an early age, his father, a teacher, gave him a fiddle, and his mother sang religious songs and traditional ballads. Lunsford also learned banjo and began to perform at weddings and square dances.

After qualifying as a teacher at Rutherford College, Lunsford taught at schools in Madison County. In 1913, Lunsford qualified in law at Trinity College, later to become Duke University. He began to travel and collect material at the start of the 20th century, often meeting singers on isolated farms. Lunsford has been quoted as saying he spent "nights in more homes from Harpers Ferry to Iron Mountain than God".
Bascom was involved in the politics of the Democratic Party. He managed the campaign for Congressman Zebulon Weaver for North Carolina. From 1931 to 1934 he was a reading clerk of the North Carolina House of Representatives. Charles Seeger employed him in the mid-30s to promote singers in "Skyline Farms", as part of the "New Deal". Lunsford was invited to the White House by President Roosevelt in 1939, when he performed his music for King George VI.[ Lunsford died on 4 September 1973.
Donuel,get your facts right, he was a democrat, a fine banjo player, he had also worked as a teacher, he did a fine job of collecting appalachian songs and tunes.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 11:13 AM

It is children that teach us more about tolerance than anyobe else, Steve. When I go on our local park I see children of all colours playing happily together. They have no idea what religion or culture their playmates come from and any fights that happen occur because of what someone has done, not because of what they are. We could all learn a lot from them.

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 11:18 AM

Dave I saw what i saw. stop trying to label it as racist. They were crooks. They were eastern european.

The guy who promised to cut my trees down and run off with £70 having done nothing was a gypsy. It doesn't mean all gypsies are bad eggs. However when its pointless to tell the police force of Boston when your store is being robbed - this is not a situation that has obtained until recently ,believe me.

okay don't believe me, but i think its you who've got the skewed view of things. Obviously the police chief is going a bit Jim Callaghan - crisis, what crisis? That way you don't have to do anything but it ends with nearly eighty percent of the town voting for Brexit.

You would have us live in an Ostrichocracy, dave.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 11:22 AM

jIM,I will clarify Lunsford was an aCtive supporter of the democrat party in the USA

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 12:03 PM

yeh the democrat /republican thing isn't a 2 legs good/4 legs bad dichotony.

In history lincoln was a republican of course.

The Earps were republicans. The outlaws were democrats.

In the Kennedy/ Nixon election - the first one I remember. Nixon seemed the more plausible. Kennedy just came across as a really good haircut.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 12:29 PM

As long as you carry on bringing it up Al, I am happy to repeat it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:18 AM

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.


Now, would you care to explain how that can be interpreted as anything but east Europeans being lawless?

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 01:42 PM

There are so many different kinds of smart I often wondered what a totally actualized pan smart human could be. Some one cruelly said I will never know. They are probably right but the question still begs an answer.

Tom Farmer, a civil rights activist taught me we are all racists.
Some in protest to the animosity directed at them and some for taking advantage of the status their color affords them and a million kinds of bigotry in between.

When different educational backgrounds interact, expectations will conflict. Get over it and keep learning

Schweik, Jerry Rasmussen wrote about Lamar not me. I did not know who he was till now.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 01:53 PM

I think the Tom Farmer quote is partially true, Donuel. I am not sure if it is race related though or just difference related. We all fear the different in one way or another. Some are better at controlling that fear and part of the process is recognising it.

Keep learning is the right way forward and I hope that I can do that until my dying day.

And this is the type of good that can come out of Mudcat :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 02:50 PM

Unfortunately my Dad's dying day was 9-11. It kinda took the hope out of his sails.

Sort of like a rule in life;
Expect the huge disappointment and celebrate the miniscule progress.

I really thought the Obama years heralded a new age of enlightenment only to be dashed by backlash.

If this thread does not inspire a great new song I will be disappointed. Its all grist for the mill.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:18 PM

If this thread does, in fact, inspire a new song -- great, or otherwise -- it will then give the lie to one opinion posted earlier, that what is political is not cultural. I can picture Martin Carthy shooting that one down, point blank! Without batting an eye! Mind you, I never had the privilege of meeting Carthy although I heard him sing in person. But Carthy's interviews and essays are most eloquent about the subversive characteristic of the English in their wordsmithing, and he would include more-or-less-political verbalizing in there. Emphasis on "include."

That's the heartening point agreed to by a majority, that Mudcat is inclusive.
Of course that means you have to agree to disagree with others, and sometimes you have to make yourself stop and think before you give in to the temptation to take offense.

Member Ollaimh is a good example for me. The post to this thread commented on something Ollaimh had observed at this forum. I think you'll find, though, should you do a search for it, that on this same forum, the same member more precisely volunteered that this same something "used to be" prevalent here. Regardless, in my time here I have learned that when Ollaimh has something to say, it will be worth listening to, even should I disagree.

I know that I have given offense on other threads to other members and moderators alike. I remember to watch my big mouth, metaphorically speaking, when I log in here lately.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 03:36 PM

I have learned that when Ollaimh has something to say, it will be worth listening to, even should I disagree.

What can you learn from someone who purports to be against racism yet is prejudice against a whole race? Irony maybe?

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 05:16 PM

Donuel, Jerry Rasmussen was wrong.
KEBEROXU, I have had the privilege of meeting Carthy quite a lot. I have great respect for him as a person singer and musician, but I do not always agree with him.
Political songs can be cultural, non political songs can also be cultural,
" what is political is not cultural" well that can occasionally be true, how about the horst wessel song?is that cultural?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 05:24 PM

what good is Mudcat?

THREAD DRIFT

that's what!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 05:47 PM

Nixon seemed the more plausible.

Yeah, and we all know how that one worked out-----

In history lincoln was a republican

Oh pleaswe, not that old line of BS. Presented with the current Republican party in the U.S. Lincoln would throw up at the very least.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 07:04 PM

Greg all that was fake news. ;^) Didn't Lincoln hire Gen. John Galt to deport the Indians, Mexicans and Blacks but the General's ship went down on the first voyage. It hit an underwater wall.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 07:40 PM

We all think of our culture is normal. It is just one culture of millions over 70,000 years. If you were an Aztec you would have thought some pretty weird shit was normal.

Culture is always crazy depending on your POV

Hell, we all shit in our drinking water and think that is normal every time we flush.

We know what is up with Democrats and Republicans but Technocrats believe that technology will save us all. With new energy sources, population control and advanced vehicles in a couple hundred to a thousand years we should get a handle on the climate.
Think how cars changed culture
In the future, kids will ask Dad&Mom to borrow the flying saucer for a date.

Now how is that for thread drift.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 17 - 09:32 PM

Technocrats believe that technology will save us all.

Yup. Just like Twitter - that one worked a treat didn't it?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 03:08 AM

and Farcebook

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 04:22 AM

well i didn't say i was upset Dave. I just reported what numerous people said to me and was reflected in the Brexit poll. I'm bloody sorry if the world does not conform to your strict standards, but I do not see that me distorting the truth is helpful to anyone except the ostrichocracy.

Of course we can pretend the world revolves round your vision of harmony and light.

Perhaps you missed your calling in life working for Tass telling everyone about how bloody fantastic the five years plan is. Or maybe Dr Goebells could have found use for your talents as a finger pointer.

However I'm not going to start lying about what I experienced at my time of life. And frankly I'm pissed off that you should feel you have the right to apply that pressure to make me, just because what i say is 'off message'.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 04:27 AM

You have still not answered the question, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:18 AM

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.


Now, would you care to explain how that can be interpreted as anything but east Europeans being lawless?

If you believe that east Europeans are lawless then you are wrong. If you don't believe it then why perpetuate the myth?

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 05:59 AM

I suppose its a bit like the Pope being denial about priest paedophiles - my gang, right or wrong.

bless you my son.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 06:02 AM

I repeat. You have still not answered the question, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:18 AM

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.


Now, would you care to explain how that can be interpreted as anything but east Europeans being lawless?

If you believe that east Europeans are lawless then you are wrong. If you don't believe it then why perpetuate the myth?

I guess I shouldn't hold my breath.


DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 07:41 AM

Donuel - 04 Mar 17 - 12:15 PM

"It is incumbent among comedians and musicians to speak truth to power."

That removes you from the equation then doesn't it Donuel.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 07:56 AM

well i suppose that IS what I'm saying. becausethat's what any number of people told me was happening.
The point is you said it was said from a racist motive.
I say I'm just telling you what's going on.

I'm sorry you can't grasp the difference. have you been to Boston? are you cognisant at all of that area?

I mean - really its you who are talking from a position of ignorance and predjudice.

We can all be experts on subjects we know nowt about. All it takes is the brass balls to talk total shit.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 08:08 AM

So, let me get this right, you are saying that east Europeans are lawless? Even in light of the evidence I provided that this is not the case?

I am sorry you cannot grasp how insulting that is to a law abiding east European. Are you east European? Even partly? How much time have you spend with east Europeans? Has anyone ever told you that your Dad is more likely to be a criminal than anyone else?

Brass balls indeed...

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 08:30 AM

This place has kept me sane over the years.

I found it first as the place that kept having that last line that I was seeking for whichever old song I'd had on records, but came to consider it a personal friend.

I was one of the first people to post something that wasn't music-related but was important (imo), and that I wanted/needed to discuss with my good friend and favorite largish community of like minds. I got *some* grief for it but only the "this is a music site" kind, no ad hominem or other insults.

Before that, if I wanted to discuss something with my friend that was important to me but unmusical, I couched it as a music thread; one strong memory is when I didn't get custody of my small twins I posted about looking for songs about that, and people did discuss me and my kids which was what I needed, but I had the, shall we say grace? Politeness? Consideration? Tact? to couch it in the terms the forum preferred. Then I got tactless, as one does with good friends, got off my better behavior and started being me, which meant sometimes just posting things that I thought the forum would enjoy talking about, or about which I needed the help of my friend. Now, I like that there are above and below the line, and I mostly enjoy both. But I also am willing to stop reading when a thread devolves into the mud.

Speaking of which this conversation should be above the line, no? It's about Mudcat which makes it directly relevant.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 08:32 AM

What a troll you are Dave. The man's telling us what he saw , not that every East European is a criminal!

You know very well what he means and your MO is the same every time. It's a fucking good job most of us have you worked out.

I suppose your little game of flowers and beer tales proved unsatisfying?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 08:38 AM

I asked Al does he mean that east Europeans are lawless. The answer came back "well i suppose that IS what I'm saying". Even though I have provided evidence that it is not true regardless of false perceptions. Now, do you have anything useful to say or are you just going to continue sniping from the sidelines as usual?

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:08 AM

Right Gnome, just like how Jews and the Jew owned media undermined Labour by falsely accusing it of anti-Semitism............bloody hypocrite.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:13 AM

I thought long and hard about putting this above the line.

No matter what, the usual impossible suspects would bring their ego squabbles to bear anywhere. A protest song challenge above the line seems doable.

The general population may not need the songs incumbent upon the folk society to provide.

Many may actually rather Obey and Believe Lest They Betray.
Protest exists in unheard numbers among women (the most effective group) but Mudcat seems to have an imagination that doesn't go beyond dropping a postcard in the mail. Where are its balls? Where are its songs?

It has been more than 45 days of internal chaos. Once an external threat demands a Trump response that justifies marital law maybe the inconvenient insanity of the Supreme Commander will inspire a more fitting musical response.


Unlike Mrrzy,

I came here with an invite from Sorcha after being banned from a Classical musical version of a political soapbox website. I also wanted a second chance to improve my writing which was more effective and deliberate than my dyslexic speech.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:32 AM

you know very well what I said and you're twisting it to justify your abusive nature.

I described a situation I found in Boston. You've never been there. You know nothing of the place.

For your information - its always been tough dock town with loads of East Europeans sailors. It is well used to Eastern Europeans. And I'm talking about generations. Thomas cromwell was negotiating for the town guilds with Dutch and Flemish traders in Tudor times. with not to mention all the Polish people who came there after the war.

The point is that Boston is the vortex of the unrest regarding Brexit. If you have no fucking interest in the matter, you just want to call names. go and find someone who is prepared to play your silly abusive games. Someone for whom, the term racist is just a play thing. Much of my working life was spent teaching in inner city schools. I have been targetted by the BNP - but you're much worse and much more persistent.

You give the left a bad name. By the falseness and malice behind your charges.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:43 AM

I concur that Boston is horribly openly racist among certain classes.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:45 AM

Why I don't post more, am generally uninspired, and avoid much of Mudcat is that nobody has the sense and self control to avoid fighting about whatever provokes them... and there are loads of provocation available everywhere. Jews/the "liberal" left/history/equal marriage rights/whatamimissing? - just please, once in a while shut the fuck up, suck it up and try talking about something positive.

I don't like you, you don't like me, but neither one of us has to care about that if we find some common ground.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:46 AM

It is Boston in the UK that is the city of discussion, Donuel.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 09:47 AM

Bobad - I have never argued that point. You are confused.

Al, I was also targeted by the BNP. That has nothing at all to do with the fact that you said you believe that east Europeans are lawless. No falseness or malice.

If you believe that east Europeans are lawless then you are wrong. If you don't believe it then why perpetuate the myth?

...

well i suppose that IS what I'm saying.

It is there for all to see so, unless you can explain that you meant something else, how can you say it is false. And for the for the record, once again, I only ever bring this up when you do. Look back up the thread if you doubt the veracity of that.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 10:39 AM

"try talking about something positive."

See UK by-elections thread.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 10:42 AM

Nudcat provides some laughter

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 11:04 AM

It does indeed, Dick.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 11:16 AM

Nudcat? I didn't know we did porn as well...

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 12:26 PM

well this is it..the ultimate arrogance. People think different from me...so they are racist.

this was pretty much the whole of the remain argument. That people had grievances could not be countenanced.

Well you got your wake up call - but you're still sleepwalking over a sea of arrogance and misplaced self righteousness.

Remember Matthew 6 - the sermon on the mount. judge not lest ye be judged
.

Dave you do too much ill informed judging of your fellow man by a country mile.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 01:04 PM

I have not, do not and will not judge anyone, Al. Just their actions. If you believe that east Europeans are lawless that is entirely up to you but do not expect those who disagree with you to keep quiet about it. You are pretty much saying you are entitled to your opinions and that is quite right. I am also entitled to mine and if you have a tantrum because my opinion is that it it racist to brand people as lawless just because of where they come from then you are going to be spitting your dummy out a lot more in future.

BTW - Biblical references are wasted on me. Better to quote from more recent works of fantasy that I may have read and enjoyed.

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 01:45 PM

It's hard not to judge a whole group by the actions of some of its members.
I'm thinking of somewhere like Magaluf, where as I understand it, the young Brits rampage about horribly drunk all night having indiscriminate sex, making a noise and so on. The Majorcans could be forgiven for imagining that British people have few morals and spend most of their time inebriated.

Similarly, we seem to have quite a few beggars in Norwich of Romanian origin (I have asked them while offering a bit of money) It would be easy to assume that Romania is populated entirely by indigent scroungers.

I find myself subconsciously making generalisations like this, and try very hard to stop doing it.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:16 PM

At times, it's same old, same old, innit? Good or bad? Hahahaa.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:18 PM

There is more than meets the eye to Mudcat below the line. Mudcat has its own little nooks and crannies, thread-wise.

There is an ongoing thread at which I lurk, but never post. The telling thing about participation in that thread, is that it includes old-timer Mudcat members who no longer post anyplace else below the line; they used to, but one aggressive response too many put them off, and now they restrict their posts to this one thread. The thread itself is no secret, the members who post there include moderators.

If I tell you the topic, it would give the thread away obviously.
I will never post there, because I find it too insular. For the ongoing posters to that thread, the closeness of the atmosphere is protective and comforting. Far be it from me to belittle the thread's communal decision to keep the sharings as civil and kind as possible; there is warmth and concern in the posts, and there's not a thing wrong with same.

And yet, when I have peeked at the thread for updates, and then move on, it is like coming up for fresh air and a breath of breeze; it's downright smother-some down there.

No, Big Al, the baddies do not have below-the-line all to themselves. There are places of refuge below the line as well, and those places are often frequented and well populated.

It's just that some threads smell a bit more rank than other threads hereabouts.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:34 PM

I was going to say that Mudcat is a really good place to discuss or find out stuff about folk songs (like I've been doing today whilst doing some research on whaling). It's actually very good for that - at least it used to be - and the precious archive is still here.

Judging by the comments on this thread I seem (as a rare venturer below the line) to have missed the point entirely!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:40 PM

I find myself subconsciously making generalisations like this, and try very hard to stop doing it.

Well done Eliza. If only more would so the same instead of trying to justify old prejudices. I have said before and openly admit that it is a struggle at times. I was brought up in a world where prejudice was rife and, as you say, it is hard not to generalise. But the more we try the more we begin to accept those cultural differences and the more we realise that there is good and bad in every culture. We are all the same under the skin and even if I have to keep reminding myself and other people of that until the day I die, it is worth remembering.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:55 PM

I think having travelled to many places around the world and experienced different cultures and habits helps one to take the wider, more tolerant view.

The thing I really like about Mudcat is the variety of nationalities and viewpoints. Skarpi from Iceland and Sandra from Sydney, Americans, Canadians, Scots, Irish and many other folk make it a great mix.

Funnily enough, W.Africans have a lot of prejudices about us in the West. The francophones call us 'Toubabou' ('whiteys') They imagine we're all daft, eat food constantly especially McDonald's, dress indecently and have no sense of family. Even my husband says "You're not too bad, for a Toubabou!"
I'm afraid I grin and reply, "You're not too bad yourself, for a n*****!"

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 03:08 AM

That's what it's all about Sen, you must have a lovely and strong relationship......well said indeed.

Some things are really important in life, others are simply posturing.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 03:32 AM

You're absolutely right akenaton. Some things just aren't important enough to tub-thump about. Others are vitally important and need our attention.
There's a thread on here at the moment about grief, and it's clear that some of our Mudcat members are suffering loss and great sadness. It's lovely to read the support and sympathy offered to them.

My husband was brought up to regard gay people as spawn of the Devil. They hide their sexuality in W Africa because they'd literally be severely beaten with heavy sticks, kicked and spat on in the street. No-one there tolerates gays. But I've been working on him for many years about this. He can see that here, gays are part of our society, and are individuals in their own right (and why ever not?). There are gay musicians, gay businessmen/women, gay doctors and so on. He's met a few, and they have all been very kind to him. A holiday barn cleaner gave him a whole pile of precious clean sheets when he was low on stock; a cosmetics adviser in a store found lots of free samples for him to take home for his sisters and mum just before he went back for a visit. He's begun to see through his awful prejudice and to look at the person, not the sexuality. I had tears in my eyes when he actually hugged the cosmetics chap in gratitude. Job done!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 06:06 PM

I do cringe to think what people outside the US must think of any and all US citizens at this moment, seeing us through the filter of our first executive and governmental branches.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 08:17 PM

what people outside the US must think of any and all US citizens at this moment

No, not any and all - just the ignorant morons that support Trump and his Cabinet of Deplorables.

The majority of U.S, voters and citizens know the inoperable cancer in the White House for what he is.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 03:18 AM

The majority of U.S, voters and citizens know the inoperable cancer in the White House for what he is.
Clearly only a small majority, and not enough to overcome the failings of the 'electoral college' system.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 10:30 AM

Clearly only a small majority

True - ca. 3 million votes - but a majority nonetheless.

RE: the other, thank the monarchist Alex. Hamilton.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 11:39 AM

The idea behind the electoral college in the first place was to counter and prevent "localism" i.e. one state dominating all others.

Get rid of the electoral college and eight states will then control the entire USA, you'd have the tail wagging the dog.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 01:45 PM

The idea behind the electoral college in the first place was to counter and prevent "localism

Try again, T- the purpose of the Electoral College was to counteract the influence of "the mob" in favor of the aristocrats.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 01:58 PM

Probably a daft question but seeing as it is one country voting for one person and given that modern technology can cumulate all the votes instantly, could there not just be an overall USA vote for the president? Genuinely interested.

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 02:38 PM

Unfortunately, no Dave.

The "Electoral College"- established as an anti-democratic sop to keep the rabble in its place - is still plaguing the U.S. two centuries plus after the fact.

Thos. Jefferson notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 05:17 PM

"Of course, we do not leave our elections to a "small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass" who "possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations." The electors are simply party hacks who are supposed to automatically vote for the candidate who won the election in the state. (Sometimes they do not do so. One elector in Washington state announced that he would not vote for Hillary Clinton if she won the State, which she did). So if the original reason for the system no longer exists, why have we maintained it?

The reason lies in the evils of our federal system. Under the electoral college structure, smaller states have enormous political leverage. Wyoming has a population of 584,153 and has three electoral votes, which means that each Wyoming elector represents 194,717 voters. California has a population of 38,800,000 and has 55 electoral votes so each elector represents 705,454 voters. So each vote in Wyoming is worth 3.6 times more than each vote in California. Other smaller states such as Rhode Island, Montana, North and South Dakota, Nebraska and Idaho also have exalted political power.

In addition, the so-called swing states get all the attention. Candidates focus on Florida, Pennsylvania and Virginia and North Carolina and make many promises to voters in those states which they are obliged to honor when the election is over. Given the importance of Iowa in the nomination process, every candidate makes promises about ethanol subsidies important to the farmers in that State but not to the rest of the population. The other 40 states get little attention or promises. If the election was based only on popular vote, then the candidates would go where the votes are, California, New York, Texas and Illinois and the swing states would have less importance But there are 29 states with less than ten electoral votes whose influence in a presidential election would be greatly diminished. Why would they agree to a Constitutional amendment that would reduce their power in the political system?"

From the NYT

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 04:32 AM

Aye - I understand that Greg, but would what I describe not be a fairer system? That way a potential presidential candidate would have to make promises to the majority of the population rather than just to those who have more sway. I know the population is huge but, as I said, surely modern technology can cope with that?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 08:37 AM

Ehmmm Gnome - potential presidential candidates always make promises to all of the population every time there is a presidential election.

Now what was it that you were recommending?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 08:50 AM

Not according to the link pasted by your first mate ake, Teribus.

Given the importance of Iowa in the nomination process, every candidate makes promises about ethanol subsidies important to the farmers in that State but not to the rest of the population. The other 40 states get little attention or promises. If the election was based only on popular vote, then the candidates would go where the votes are, California, New York, Texas and Illinois and the swing states would have less importance But there are 29 states with less than ten electoral votes whose influence in a presidential election would be greatly diminished.

I am interested in what people would think is a better system so your input would be appreciated. Why would one voting population in one country voting for one president not work and why does it have to be split into states? Not that it matters here (both UK and Mudcat) really.

DtG

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Severn
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 06:03 PM

The good of Mudcat is that I am much better off for either knowing or knowing OF a great many of you and having developed many lasting friendships. I have entertained some of you in my house and have been entertained by some of you in your own domiciles. I have joined my voice in harmony and conversation with some of you. Some of you reached out and gave help and support through a few medical crises. I stay away from politics in here, and so have been able to keep my friends I have made.

I miss the Chat room atmosphere of years ago before it became cancerous and had to be discontinued and made more of my early friendships from there more than from the actual threads.

I have found the lyrics to many of the songs I sing from Mudcat or from individual Mudcatters.

So politics and philosophy be damned, I'm just better off for having had access to this place and songs, jokes, friendships and information that I've shared. That's all there is or needs to be for there to be good from this place. So thanks to most of you all for existing.....

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 06:23 PM

Aye - I understand that Greg, but would what I describe not be a fairer system?

Absolutely. But it would take an Ammendment to the Consitution; while not impossible, a very dificult process.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 06:41 PM

To Severn. Was there really a golden age, though? I seem to remember a recent discussion which mentioned an appeal on this forum by Max to cut out the trolling and keep things civil - from a decade and a half ago! If you press me I'll dig it out. As for the rest of your post, I heartily agree with your sentiments.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 11:45 AM

I came to Mudcat, I must allow, for the songs in general, and for artists like the Weavers in particular.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 12:36 PM

C'est pas tout le monde qui connait la difference entre Toubab et Toubabou!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: mayomick
Date: 11 Mar 17 - 09:57 AM

I wish other sites had above and below line threads.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Mar 17 - 10:17 PM

A person who prefers to remain a Guest emailed this to me and asked me to consider posting it. I was reluctant, but then decided to post it.

Hi Joe,
I had thought of posting the item below in the above thread, but I thought as I am only a guest I have no business trying to suggest any changes to mudcat below the line, especially as I may be considered one of the offenders by some. So I felt it best for you to preview it first and to do with it whatever you wish-print it, act on it, bin it- it is entirely a matter for you:-

"Above the line is a wonderful resource for information on folk music, with responses to questions almost instantaneous, and from all over the world.
Below the line is a very different world of un-policed anarchy, where reasonable standards of behaviour can be sadly lacking. It is a place where the nastier side of humanity can sometimes be displayed. and threads can degenerate into slanging matches.
For some the partial excuse can be offered that they have passionate feelings on a subject, for others the non excuse is that it offers a vehicle to display their supposed superiority and erudition and most notably their intolerance.

I would like to see sanctions imposed on continuous offenders and I am sure the moderators know who the guilty parties are. Perhaps banning from posting for a period of weeks/months would clean up the forum and in tandem a public name and shame of those thought to be trolling.. Perhaps then the content would concentrate on the merits of the argument and counter argument and not the individual"

Regards ----.

As some of you know very well, we do impose sanctions on "contentious offenders," but we also try our best to promote free discussion. It's a difficult balance to maintain.

I thought you all ought to know why some people stay away from the non-music forum. It's a bit of a jungle.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 04:14 AM

Well Joe, this could be a beacon among discussion forums, as there are a large number of very intelligent people posting here.....BUT there are quite a few things which need fixing(I know it's not easy).
Personal abuse should be discouraged, for example personal charges of racism fascism etc......they prove nothing and often provoke angry responses.   Thread wreckers who go deliberately off topic in an attempt to interrupt the flow of discussion should be warned then banned for a day if they refuse to comply.

Moderation should not be conducted on political grounds!

We are all adults here and should be able to conduct ourselves properly, discuss any controversial subject without being subjected to all the childishness we see at present.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:21 AM

mudcat seriously needs a separate obits section...

[even if it pushes BS further down the page...]

Above the line is increasingly too depressing for new younger visitors...

This place has become overwhelmingly sad and funereal....
and can only get grimmer over the next few years..

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:22 AM

100.... time to let some light and fresh air back in here

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:23 AM

100!

So, Donuel, did you expect the thread to go on for so long or for it to get pushed so far off the rails?

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:24 AM

Damn you and your 100 stealing ways PFR...

:D tG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:25 AM

There are some vituperative people who get very heated in BS, but one can simply avoid those threads and look at the others. After all, they're not having these arguments in one's sitting room are they?

Also, I've noticed that there's a slightly different 'discussion' (I use the term loosely!) style among the Brits as compared to those from other parts (eg USA) The UK style can get very savage, with insults flying and goading remarks being directed at each other. This sometimes occurs in British pubs, and an onlooker from abroad might be forgiven for thinking murder is about to be committed. It isn't pretty, but it's a sort of tradition, though perhaps regrettable. Like the landlord in the Dog and Duck, the Moderators are wise to let the argument run its course, intervening only when chairs start being hurled across the pub!

(to Mrrzy) My husband speaks Bambara/Malinke, and while Toubab is the singular and Toubabou the plural, his lot don't distinguish. It's Toubabou for every situation. However, in Senegal (Casamance for example) the Wolof speakers used Toubab for myself, and Toubabou for all whiteys in general!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:28 AM

101 damnations... 😜


not saying mudcat should be disneyland or my little pony fluffy candy floss world...


but....

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:18 AM

We could always divert nasty discussions towards wild flowers, good food, scenery, what we did on our holidays, etc. I wonder whether it's been tried...

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:50 AM

It's real drag below the line these days. Same old people in the same old slanging matches. It's ever been thus to a degree (I'm sure www can all remember the worst offenders of the early 2000's) but has definitely got worse in recent years and is it now pretty much impossible to continue a civilised discussion before the regulars trash it. I'm all for the rough and tumble of vicious debate, but that's not what is happening now.

In my early years on this forum I learnt a lot from people I never would have communicated with in real life as our paths would never have crossed. These discussions had profound effect on me and challenged some of my fundamental assumptions on a number of subjects. It was often uncomfortable to be challenged in such a way but there was a more tolerant atmosphere around the discussions, less of a tendency for folk to think they knew it all and have seen it all.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:01 AM

Now Steve, there's nothing wrong with wild flowers, good food, scenery and what we did on our holidays. We can always get vituperative about those if we really try however. :)

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:03 PM

I still need my Mudcat on a regular basis, be Mudcat right or wrong.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:42 PM

To Stu and other lamenters for a lost golden age. With apologies to Max.

Dear GUESTS,

The Mudcat is a place that like minded people communicate and share their knowledge and their lives. We come from different backgrounds, different countries, different ideals, different religions, morals and lifestyles. With these differences, it amazes me that we have so much in common. The format, technology and philosophy of the Mudcat design have been carefully crafted for almost 6 years to facilitate this very diverse community. I have steadfastly or stubbornly held to an ideal of openness since our beginning because I thought that was what was necessary to mimic the real world and to make it easy and comfortable for new folks to discover and learn about our community and ease their way into it.

For the first time since I started this whole thing, I am very thoughtfully considering an alternative.   With GUESTS posting as they are today, I have no interest in continuing as I have. You are hurting me. Not just my feelings or my pride in what we have accomplished here, but also in a real concrete way. As many of you know, the economy is in the tank, and Onstage can no longer finance the Mudcat. The members have contributed a great deal of money, in January specifically, that will keep us running for at least 6 months to come. We are up for 2 grants from Folk Song Societies come March and April. All of our sources of financing are highly deterred by the behavior and ability of GUESTS. Probably about ¾ or our income comes from people and organizations that care about us because we are a Music Resource with no equal. The other ¼ is because of the community. Zero is from GUESTS. So, in these times of necessity, I need to prioritize in gratitude for those who care about the Mudcat in real ways. Real ways are the contributions of money and the contributions of knowledge. Neither comes from GUESTS.

Please stop this behavior, I ask nicely, nay, I beg of you. There is no point to this. This forum is not just words on a page; these are people behind these posts. People who are here to share themselves, their knowledge, their time and even their homes. What you are doing is littering in the park. A free place we can all come to and do our thing, whether we want to meet people and discuss our interests or just sit on the benches and read. You are also personally attacking me. This is my creation, and you are ruining it. You are jeopardizing the only financing we have. If you do not hear my plea, and find some human compassion and stop this now, I will have no choice but to put a fence around my park to keep you out.   

Flamers and Trolls of the past always seemed to want something. They would flame BS, Prayer, Healing, etc. threads in protest that this should be a Music-Only Web site. Or they would pick on specific people they did not like. I cannot figure out what you GUESTS want or why you do this other than some egocentric joy from destruction. If I knew what you wanted I could deal with this issue in a surgical fashion and address only those issues without changing one of our core philosophies. But, I do not expect that you want anything. Nor do I suspect you will grant me my plea to please stop this. If that is the case, I have no choice but to implement measures to deal with you. That is, no anonymous postings. At a minimum, you will have to be a member, you will receive your password via a valid email address and your IP address will be recorded. Any behavior that I don't like (no jury, no trial) and your cut off. A technological challenge that I am looking forward to.

MEMBERS: We are discussing our options and our technology now, and will post an Open Letter to Members in a week or two to explain what we have decided. There will be no debate, I've heard all there is to hear about this issue. I will do as I see fit.

Sincerely,

Max D. Spiegel
Publisher

[Posted on 10 Feb. 2002]

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:06 PM

Despite what seemed like major problems back then, it was still possible to have a BS discussion that was mostly fun and respectful. Not these days. I've read Jim Carroll call this a "debate forum" twice. Well no, it's not, but when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

The fundamental problem I have is that people don't seem to care about Mudcat or the people here enough to modify their behavior. Never NOT say something if you can. I can't do anything about it, though. Just post when I'm inspired and piss off when the oblivious, egomaniacal flamers start humping the thread to death.

Or maybe that's being vituperative. I hope my snowdrops will be warm beneath the major poop-load of snow we're gonna get tomorrow. Snowdrops = hope.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:22 PM

Well don't give up. A handful of us are mischievously trying to derail foul threads. You guys could close 'em, and you may not think that that's right, and you could be right. A scintilla of support would be good. Your mention of your snowdrops gives me ever such a slight hope that you may have noticed. More snowdrops, daffodils, walks in the park and the odd recipe do seem to get the negativos really cross, which could be good. A couple of months of steam coming from the ears of the naysayers could fix everything. What variety of snowdrops do you have? Saw a gorgeous clump of Galanthus elweisii this afternoon, but I still prefer the humble ordinary snowdrop, Galanthus nivalis.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 08:18 PM

Only Glanthus nivalus. Usually, I find them after they've been in bloom for a while.
On moderation, people talk about what they want to, and if it's crap, I guess that's what they want. People who don't like it often can't not engage, and it just gets worse when they do, but they have to figure that out for themselves (if they can). If it's just them fighting with a club of 4 or 5 regular crap-lovers, they might notice and shut up. I doubt they're capable of absorbing that clue, but anything's possible.

Got Siberian Squill, too. Little blue blossoms.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 08:47 PM

"It's a bit of a jungle."
Bit of an oversimplification I'm afraid Joe.
People get angry - even passionate over things they care about - whatever they are.
I suggest you go count the number of "what is folk-song" threads where things have become heated even to the point of having threads closed down.
I am #fully aware that we sometimes over-step the mark, but that's the way things go sometimes
I've always considered your postings reasonable and balances, but I have so say, I still sting when I recall a name you called me which I would never dream of using about anybody - on religion, of all things
We all have our varying boiling points and most of us take as good as we get without complaining - (with a few exceptions).
One possible way of avoiding such hat is to adopt a practice I have seen regularly in pubs in England, and put up a notice "no politics and no religion" but where would be the fun in that?
I have a feeling that this year is going to herald in a great deal of nastiness, which will accentuate some of the behaviour we see here
Better start work on the fallout shelter in the garden tomorrow - it's going to be a long four years!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 08:55 PM

Anyone prattling on about moderation on a forum needs to be told to shrug their shoulders and accept that it's not their gig. If I ever catch myself prattling on about it I nearly always end up by saying that. You can always start your own bloody forum and employ your own bloody rules!

In the gardens I visited today there were huge clumps of Summer Snowflakes, Leucojum aestivum, looking for all the world like overgrown snowdrops. But my favourite sight of the day was an enormous Magnolia campbellii, about sixty feet tall with masses of the most ridiculously beautiful, over-the-top pink flowers and great big furry buds that you just had to stroke. On the grassy areas underneath were great drifts of hoop-petticoat narcissi, Narcissus bulbocodium. Life-affirming!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 11:36 PM

Mudcat brings joy. What good is joy? It brings new depth and fire to life. What good is life? Without it there would be no song. What good are songs? If you have to ask, you should stick to Snapchat or xhamster.

Let us have joy, and let us enjoy the fact that thanks to Spiegel and his many supporters, we have added to the sum total of song in the world.

Blessing on Max and on Dick and on singers of good songs everywhere.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 12:04 AM

"What good are songs? If you have to ask, you should stick to Snapchat or xhamster."

hey... folks can multi task..
it's easy enough to 'appreciate' xhamster whilst listening to good songs and singing along... 😜


..same as back in the pre internet age when all one had was magazines furtively purchased in plain brown paper bags....
..and you sang out loud so family thought you were practising songs behind closed doors in the garage, bathroom, or bedroom...

.. errrrrrm.. so I've been told...

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 02:44 AM

Galanthus nivalis is the only acceptable snowdrop for me. Native to UK and delicate in form. That bloody old elwesii thing is coarse and far too big. I don't like the Hyacinthoidus hispanica either. Same thing, too big and blowsy, and it's invading our woodlands at the expense of our native Hyacinthoides non-scripta. It even has the cheek to hybridise with our bluebells, and their offspring have no scent!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 02:48 AM

In fact, I'm going to form a new political party, the WFNP , Wild Flower Nationalist Party, (otherwise known as Woof Nip)

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:07 AM

I must try to learn more about wild flowers and botany in general. Good to see that the de-nastify thread movement is gaining momentum and, getting back to topic, one of the good things about Mudcat is its adaptability :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:09 AM

On the subject of "off topic", of course some threads veer off on to other matters, that is usually natural progression in discussion, but Stevie has stated repeatedly that "we", meaning him and his playmates are employing this tactic deliberately in an attempt to "piss off" other members, have threads closed or cause people they do not "like" to leave the forum permanently.

This would seem to be a gross contravention of forum rules regarding moderation, but Stevieboy has latched on to the idea that this section is no longer being moderated, so the children are taking full advantage.
This is a difficult situation to rectify, as we don't want to go back to the wholesale removal of posts or complete threads without explanation.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:13 AM

It was primarily your posts that were being removed and your intervention in threads that got them removed or closed, ake. If I remember rightly you are also banned from posting on a regular basis. Speaks volumes.

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:43 AM

I think the trashing of a thread by deliberately introducing totally off topic items should be prevented. There is no compulsion to post on every subject. Thread drift is inevitable. But I think anyone can see there is a huge gulf between drifting a thread and deliberately sinking it.
Sabotaging is a brand new game developed by several childish posters who have the mistaken idea they rule the roost and make up the rules.
If everyone behaved the same way the fourum below the line could no longer function. It takes zero skill to introduce a new topic in a thread and it can easily be crafted to target specific people. These same people are the ones to start shouting "not fair" when they and their little ruses are mocked and ridiculed.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:55 AM

Akenaton's response shows that the ploy can work!

Snowdrops are now believed to be not native to the UK, Senoufou. You should have bawled at me for misspelling "elwesii," by the way! As for bluebells, Hyacinthoides non-scripta, as natives they are confined to the western edge of Europe, and the UK is their main stronghold. You don't get bluebell woods like we have here anywhere else (almost). Another native plant threatened by interbreeding is the wild daffodil, Narcissus pseudonarcissus. I know a couple of places where true wild daffodils grow round here (they're not too common), but garden daffodils gone wild are rampant in the Westcountry. They are not the same species but they freely interbreed with the natives.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:59 AM

GIVE ME YOUR ADDRESS STEVIE BOY AND i'LL SEND YOU SOME ROUNDUP. By the way were you Bill or Ben, I could not make up my mind?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:59 AM

Good man, Iains, the latest, most recent name-calling thread-trasher-in-chief! Ironic that an angry person can call for the prevention of "irrelevant" pleasantries whilst insisting that we stay on-topic in toxic threads!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:04 AM

I seem to have a talent for penetrating that rhinoceras hide of yours Shaw. I can tell by your returning pleasantries.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:25 AM

Just thought I'd mention that the moderators are far more likely to be reading this thread than the Labour Party one in which you're trolling away like there's no tomorrow, Iains. Keep digging. The rhinoceros is an affable beast who is generally peaceable, but it's best not to mess with him, I'm told.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:52 AM

I think I'll invite you to join my Woof Nip Party Steve, you're very knowledgeable about wild flowers!
Maybe you were thinking of edelweiss when you mis-spelled elwesii?
We have the most gorgeous bluebell woods here in Norfolk. There's one in Stratton Strawless we always visit.

We have some wild white violets in flower in our front garden. (Viola odorata alba)

Where else on the Internet can one discuss Hot Russian Ladies and school dinners (see Spam thread) breeds of dogs, various storms and their names, and have a good old bash at some nitwit one disagrees with politically, all on one forum? Mudcat is brilliant!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 06:11 AM

As long as we maintain our dignity, as long as we maintain our dignity! It isn't so much political disagreement, it's tackling people who come here with their agenda set in stone. I'm sick of it and more and more I'm just wanting to let 'em get on with it. I should have looked up "elwesii" but it was getting late and my mini iPad eyes ain't what they used to be! The best bluebell wood around here is at Brownsham, between Hartland Point and Clovelly. The walk takes you through some pretty steep woodland, some of it right on the cliff edge looking right across the sea. The woodlands have lots of primroses, campion, satin flower, sanicle, early purple orchids and ferns as well as the bluebells, not to speak of birdsong. The variety is amazing. We always go around the first few days in May and have done it as a matter of ritual for thirty years.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 07:22 AM

people who come here with their agenda set in stone.

Er, like you Steve?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 08:01 AM

You are a major part of the problem, Keith, despite your wringing your hands innocently in denial over many years. I'm not going to stop talking to people like you but I'm not going to respond to your rather brainless and obsessive hectoring, any more than I'm going to trade insults with the likes of Iains and Teribus. I'll still challenge you over your lack of truthfulness, which you've already resurrected in another thread this morning. That just makes honest debate impossible, but you don't seem to care. Simple as that. If I've been part of the problem, from now on I'm leaving you behind, in the hope that my "irrelevant" interventions concerning nature, cookery and general joviality, every time I see you doing your silly thing, really annoy you. And let me tell you right now that I don't see this thread as the right place to get involved in to-ing and fro-ing with you, so, go ahead, have the last word. Biggest flock of chaffinches I've seen for years in my patch this morning and we've had a couple of greenfinches too. I've been a bit worried about them for a year or two, but, hopefully, they'll make a comeback this year.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 08:46 AM

I've just come indoors after sitting on the bench in our front garden. Saw a pair of red kites soaring over Gadder's Hill, and that great tit has found a mate. (The one that goes on and on and on and on saying 'teacher! teacher!') Left some food out for a rather frazzled-looking blackbird who was eyeing me hopefully for ages right at my feet.
Male pigeons annoying their mates on every rooftop. The poor ladies only want to sit quietly and look about, but they're always being pestered by their over-excited menfolk.
Time for some lunch. Husband not too well today, so made a light snack for him. I think it could be a bout of recurrent malaria, poor man.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 09:03 AM

One of out cats tolerates all sorts of birds. The main visitors to our garden are sparrows, starlings, jackdaws, collared doves and, oddly enough, ducks but we do get a few finches, tits and things I have no idea about. However, whenever she sees blackbirds, male or female, she gets really agitated, goes quite rigid and makes odd barking or quacking noises. Think we have a racist cat on our hands?

:D tG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 09:19 AM

Our Siamese cats do that too Dave, chattering with hardly any sound. I think blackbirds are sadly quite easy for a cat to catch (ours are too old now to catch anything)

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 09:20 AM

it's tackling people who come here with their agenda set in stone.

Lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololol!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 09:32 AM

You know there are bullies, and there are those who decide it's their calling to go after bullies.

They're both bullies.
You either figure out how to carry on with what you love, or go darkside and eventually become what you hate.

In any case, we can see you.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 09:48 AM

There are many shades of dark, Jeri. The Mamas And Papas were wrong about the darkest hour being just before dawn but the idea was good. Let's try it, enveloping ourselves in an air of positivity.

Anyway.

A few months ago, whilst ensnarled yet again in the M62 roadworks just before the M6 junction 😡😤😩💩, I spotted a red kite quartering the roadside allotments (northerners may know the spot). When I checked later it seemed that they weren't supposed to be as far north as that. Can't trust sources these days! And no baseless accusations, please, that I don't know my kites from my buzzards. We have hundreds of buzzards round here and I've even been known to talk to one!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 10:19 AM

Going after bullies is bullying????

Hmmm.......don't think so.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 10:26 AM

I think the school dinners discussion was,
not the spam thread,
but the Remember the Broccoli thread.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 12:04 PM

I'm afraid some of us have started on the school dinners theme on the Spam thread too keberoxu! I expect once one has experienced UK school dinners in the fifties and sixties, one is traumatised for life and can't stop bringing up (sorry!) the subject at every opportunity.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 12:16 PM

A good window on what we thought of school dinners can be gained by looking at these childrens rhymes.

Now we have a folklore link! Yay :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 02:42 PM

I'm a west country boy.. I was born with a love for Cheddar cheese in my genes...

Then one school dinner at grammar school - I was 11 - they served a quiche
which was so revolting it put me off eating cheese again for years...

I'd gag a at the mere thought of cheese until my late teens... 😰


Which is a bit like the effect mudcat can have from time to time...🙄

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 02:57 PM

We're working on it. Yeah, you bollocked me once for incorrectly locatiing Wookey Hole Cave-aged. I still think it's the finest of all Cheddars. But, and I hate to say it, there's a factory cheese that is almost (not quite, though) up there with it. It's Cathedral City Extra Mature. Not Vintage, not light, not ordinary mature. I was amazed and disgusted that I could like a factory cheese that much. I generally take against Cathedral City because they make it in Davidstow, just up from us, in a factory that looks like a nuclear reactor. The roads round here can be jammed up with huge great articulated milk tankers with Cathedral City emblazoned on the side. None of your local, carefully-selected high-welfare farms for them! They used a photo of Bedruthan Steps beach to make us think that they make their cheese by the romantic shores of the wild Atlantic. Bollocks. The ugly factory is miles inland and nowhere near Bedruthan Steps, and is surrounded by a scene of dereliction and a disused airfield!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:00 PM

The 'cheese' used in our cheese flan school dinner in the fifties was probably that rock hard greyish soapy stuff with a rather odd flavour. Just after the War most food was a bit ersatz, unless one grew it oneself. I adore cheese, but it has to be good quality regional speciality, not unspecified 'cheese'.
The school pastry was ghastly too. A sort of grey colour and hard as the hobs. I expect the ratio of fat to flour was poor, and the flour itself bog standard. I make very nice pastry (if I say so myself) but one must use lots of fat (butter and lard) and stone ground flour, the minimum of handling and a short burst in a very hot oven.

See, Mudcat is also the source of lots of food advice and cookery tips!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:09 PM

I have never made pastry as it's one of the last bastions of Mrs Steve's kitchen endeavours. She won't let me have a go. We slummed it on omelette and chips tonight (spuds cut into chunks, skin on, parboiled, baked in the hottest possible oven in groundnut oil for 25 minutes).   She has hers plain, I stick a heap of Parmesan in mine. Gotta be three eggs, gotta be done in butter, gotta be done hot and fast.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:09 PM

Oh Steve, you've spoiled my image of Cathedral City cheese! We adore their Extra Mature, it has tiny grains of salt in and a wonderfully strong flavour. Mature Yet Mellow is also very good. How could you tell me it comes from such an uninspiring place?!! I was picturing a cathedral city similar to Norwich, with dreaming spires and the gentle lowing of grass-fed cows drifting across the meadows... I'm now clutching my pearls in horror.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 11:02 PM

What enthusiastic thread-drifters! Cheese and pasta, indeed! Chasing dust motes and ignoring the emerald in the middle of the room.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 05:41 AM

Another thread destroyed by the usual pack.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 06:22 AM

The thread was destroyed on the first day, Iains, well before any thread drift started.

Hey, Eliza - How do you feel about being one of the pack? :-) Maybe we should rename you 'Dances with wolves'!

:D tG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 06:32 AM

We are the doves, not the wolves! Now all we have to do is to convince the American mods (with all respect to them, as they have an impossible job) who have done a bloody good imitation of sitting on their hands recently whilst three or four real nasties screw up threads in runaway fashion (even above the line now, fer chrissake!) that a handful of BRITS are trying to make things below-the-line viable and a bit more pleasant. Adelante! Excelsior! Annoy the naysayers!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 06:40 AM

But wolves come in packs and doves come in flocks. Are you suggesting that we get the flock out of here Steve? :-)

I was just reminded of one of my favourite expressions. I first came across it when I started work at Worsley UDC so have always assumed it was from around the Bolton area. On returning from the toilet one of the brickies explained he had suffered from lose bowels with the phrase...

It come away like a flock o' sparrers

:D tG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 07:29 AM

Too many lumpy bits in a flock o'sparrers, Dave. An imperfect analogy I should say. Mind you, Boltonians allus were a bit bloody thick....

Let's carry on making a flocking nuisance of ourselves, Dave. We could always be a pack of doves!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 07:32 AM

Nah, Amos. We're looking for the diamond in the crock of shite.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 08:06 AM

Well I'm surprised if anyone thinks I'm part of a pack. Or a flock.
I'm more the shape of a hippo really. Especially the ...er...rear end.

I'm seeing this not as thread drift but part of the lovely ambience of Mudcat where anything and everything can be discussed. It's a great pleasure to me and much appreciated. I have no 'agenda' to derail or spoil any thread here.

In this thread alone I've learned a lot, and now know things I didn't know before.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 09:29 AM

According to the late Rumer Godden (who has read her novels?),
an episode of sparrows.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 09:39 AM

I've just looked up the list of 'English Terms Of Venery' for the old names of various groups of animals, and it's:-

A BLOAT of Hippoptami !!! Very appropriate in my case. Hee hee!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 10:31 AM

The word that keeps coming back to me, when this pro-and-con progresses, is "territorial." The territorial approach certainly gets and holds attention; on one level, it is satisfying to the people who are doing it.

Territoriality has its limits though. I guess you don't mind driving the onlookers away as long as your claims and possessiveness are your first priority?

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
that wants it down....

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 11:02 AM

Beyond me I'm afraid. I'll stick to cheese and sparrows.

:D tG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 11:07 AM

Ah, Robert Frost. Excellent poet!

"Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in and walling out,
And to whom I'd give offence..."    Very appropriate here, keberoxu.

I also adore another of his poems 'Stopping By Woods On A Snowy Evening' The line "...and miles to go before I sleep..." always brings tears to my eyes.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 12:28 PM

Don't wanna troll you, Senoufou, but shouldn't it be "hippopotamuses?" 😈

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 01:23 PM

Back at Senoufou - In Sub-Sararan West African French, at least where I was, le toubab was the *doctor* and toubabou was un blanc.

I saw a vanity tag that said TUBABUU and I was impressed by the accuracy of that long last syllable. Left a note on their windshield but never heard back...

See, THIS is the kind of thing that below-the-line is good for!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 01:33 PM

"Don't wanna troll you, Senoufou, but shouldn't it be "hippopotamuses?""

Now that's a talking point... ;-)

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 01:48 PM

Dear Max, You have seen people behave as they do despite enlightened precautions and moderation.

My life's work has been in neural linguistics in which the word hypnosis is merely an abbreviation of the concepts of cognitive and unconscious communication.

To discuss my life's work is a no win situation since everyone has a neural filter that will either ignore, change or ridicule new information one does not understand.

Here is a link to a person that I agree with every sentence and concept. You will see how your experience will identify with these concepts.


http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/interviews/professor-cognitive-science-george-lakoff/

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 01:51 PM

Either hippopotamuses or hippopotami is correct Steve. The latter is considered a bit pedantic now, but I'm an old biddy, and like to feel I've applied the Latin plural correctly. (I've only got 'O' Level Latin, but one has to do what one can with what one has!)

That's really fascinating Mrrzy, and as you say, what Mudcat is all about. I did challenge my husband about toubab etc as it doesn't agree with what I'd heard from Wolofs and the Djiola in Senegal, but he says, for example, 'domuli toubabou' (white people's food) and he often smiles and says 'mi feh toubabou!' (I love you whitey!) He's never written or read Bambara/Malinke as he was taught only French in school, and very sketchily at that. But it was his mother tongue, then French and now English. He's done well hasn't he to have mastered all three?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 02:06 PM

I have a keen interest in yet not much knowledge of neuro-linguistic programming Donuel. I would be interested to hear what you have to say although I must agree that I may not like it much! It is quite scary to think that someone can manipulate you and you don't even know it :-( It is for that very reason that I stopped following the mass media many years ago and treat almost everything I see on the internet with a pinch of salt.

Bring it on! We can cope. Besides, forewarned is forearmed :-D

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 02:28 PM

Sorry, Senoufou. I was just cross because I missed two omnibi in a row last night and had to walk home. I haven't got an agendum, honest. It's the kind thing that does crop up on these fora every now and again. I find it to be a very strange phenomena.


😂😂😂

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 02:36 PM

I've also got 'O' Level Latin, Senoufou, and I regard it as the most useful subject I did at school. Unfortunately, grade 4 is all I could manage as I neglected to learn me Virgil - I could never help thinking that so much was lost in translation! Bo-ring! I was fine with all that translating and declining and conjugating (if you'll pardon my French), but beautiful poetry translated into near-doggerel - yikes!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 02:57 PM

Oh Steve, I'm sure you know and are only teasing, but phenomena is the plural form of phenomenon. One can't have a phenomena!

I had to scramble up a Latin 'O' level in only two years, as I'd decided to go to Edinburgh Uni and Latin was part of the Attestation of Fitness to enter the Arts Faculty Linguistics course. A fantastic and very posh teacher at my grammar school, Miss Bailey-Reynolds (an Oxford graduate and rowing blue) undertook to get me through it with good old Kennedy's Latin Primer. I got grade 3, and remember nothing of the literature (Omnia Gallia in tres partes divisa est...?) but good old Miss Bailey-Reynolds had all the cribs and encouraged me to cheat by learning them in English. She did all this in her own time, one-to-one, and I bless her to this day. She had teeth that stuck out horribly and rather resembled a horse, but I really loved her.

PS Don't you just hate eye-dillick for idyllic?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 03:05 PM

I passed the 11 plus 1970 and got shipped off by bus to the nearest big town traditional strict boy's grammar every school day...
Latin was compulsory from day 1

Bearing in mind the controversy over selectivity at age 11...
the school practised even more targeted selection at the end of year one...

Boys who were good at Latin were streamed into the languages elite and then did German as well;
The rest of us stopped Latin completely and only continued with French and 'less intellectually demanding' subjects...

Trouble was I was even more shit at metal work and sciences than Latin... 😬

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 03:48 PM

Our brand new grammar school didn't offer the classics, but did offer Russian, French and German. At 'A' Level I was studying English Lit. French, German and that blooming Latin, each with quite a few literary works to be tackled. I loved it though. We didn't have the 11 plus - our County stopped that and allocated us by continuous assessment, and opened one of the first Comprehensives in England.

Another thing I like about Mudcat is the high standard of posts. If one has a look at, say, Netmums, one will see just what horrors exist elsewhere.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 04:27 PM

I left sec mod with 7 CSEs and O level Maths and Art - Honest! As the old joke goes, spent the first 5 years of my working life painting computers :-) Luckily I got accepted into the local Grammar post Sec Mod and went to to do 3 or 4 more O's along with A level History, Economics and British Constitution and Government. I did find it very difficult however and, on discovering girls and beer, decided it was easier to give it up and start work with a local urban district council. In those heady days of the early 70s there was ample opportunity for day release and I gained an ONC in Business Studies with honours in most of the subjects. Went on to do an LSE economics degree at Wigan Tech but, sadly, it as cancelled after a couple of months because there were only 3 of us :-( By that time the family was growing anyway so I stopped higher education but I have often thought about doing a degree. Could combine my computer skills with something more interesting. Maybe a Thesis on ancient Roman databases...

Talking about Wigan Tech. I kid you not, when I enrolled it was in the canteen. Menu for the day was steak pie or chicken pie with cheese pie as the vegetarian option. Sweet was apple pie or rhubarb pie. The sobriquet pie-eaters is well earned.

:D tG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 04:44 PM

I feel very humble reading all these well-educated folk's accounts of their studies! We're so lucky to have had the opportunities in a developed country. In my estimation, my husband is an extremely intelligent man, but he had a woefully short and poor 'education' with sixty boys in his class, no equipment whatsoever and merely repeating what the teacher said over and over until the bell rang. A huge stick was savagely applied across the shoulders to any slackers. He could have achieved a university degree I reckon, but he had no chance at all.
I don't know what youngsters today feel about all the advantages they have (one can't expect them to be overly grateful, as they've known nothing else) but in the fifties we were truly blessed and knew it. Our parents made sure of that!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 05:54 PM

Well, pardon my snark, fellow Catters. I enjoy good-flowing conversation as much as any man, I believe, but I get cross with slaggers and sech.

A

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 06:01 PM

Not sure what them are either! Maybe I'll not bother with that thesis. I am too thick:-(

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 11:10 PM

Senoufou, I knew a PCV or maybe grad student named Barbara Lewis whom the locals called Bambara Louise.

And Donuel - Women, Fire and Dangerous Things is one of my favorite books!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 05:20 AM

Hahaha Mrrzy! Actually my husband showed me just the other day a video of a white lady who amazes the locals in Cote d'Ivoire because she speaks fluent Malinke. Oh I'd absolutely love to be able to do that!

In Senegal (Djouloulou) the ladies there told me that a toubabe was sitting squashed on one of those ricketty minibuses, and the locals were talking about her in Wolof, saying "Why on Earth is she riding on this bus? You'd think she could afford a taxi!" etc. She turned to them and in perfect Wolof gave them a right mouthful, to the effect that she had as much right as them to be on the bus. They apparently shrieked with laughter and gave that loud single CLAP with their hands that African ladies do when they're amazed.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 08:28 AM

Dave the Gnome, You, Mr. Red, Joe, Senofou, Steve and Mrzzy are ready to understand this discussion link which is a brief overview of my identical view of our brains and behavior.

A brief discussion of our mind and body adopting world views.

Where my dad left off as a political science professor this is where I went a step further. I was only 3 when I saw my first holocaust films and started my quest to learn why people do such things.

It was not until college that I discovered that was a good hypnotic subject when everything fell into place. Having dyslexia and studying psychological communication was like a quest to learn who I was and why. Only then could I extrapolate to others with some real empathy.

I have spoken of this POV for 15 years here but one must accept that less than 1% of our posts are either read or understood.

The world view that the richest people are the superior people is the first mistake the conservative mind makes. To call the world view formation and how the mind is influenced by repetition as merely hypnosis is a gross simplification but a fair comparison. It is a difference between the short run and the long run.

Having my own hypnosis clinic right out of college for 12 years was quite an education I kid you not.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 08:38 AM

edit
In college I discovered that 'I' was a good hypnotic subject.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 09:18 AM

I shall bookmark that for later perusal - Thanks Donuel.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 02:23 PM

That is the end for this thread. No one wants homework.

To actually know why people behave the way they do because of words and why they have the world views they have, is a powerful knowledge tool for good or evil.

If this is a new concept you do not have the option to think "aha this I accept wholeheartedly". Your neural filter can only change the concept within your POV, ignore or ridicule. It is like choosing the red pill or blue pill in the Matrix. Once known, you can not unsee it.

I can explain why good people can become hateful bloodthirsty conservatives by nurture alone and without psychopathology.
A seamless hierarchy is needed. The mindset or paradigm works like this;
Success is defined in this hierarchy as wealth of the wealthy over the lazy losers who lack ambition or intelligent skills. The rest of the pecking order is God over man, man over nature, white over dark races, America over other Countries, Adult over child, everyone over the animal kingdom and ecology.

Even if a person only believes in one or two of these hierarchies, with repetition, the entire mind set of the person soon believes in the total misdirection. In reality we have many more than one world view but a Conservative comes to believe in the whole ball of wax.

What does the repetition have to do with this? Repetition promotes neural dendrite growth in your brain.

A progressive exercises their empathy and care for the collective.
Democracy can not survive without caring.

You know John Lennon was right in his song Imagine. The folks who said 'everything you know is wrong' were on the right track. If you ever heard that your brain is not your own, that too was correct.

A brain training regime works on many people but not necessarily you personally. There are means to overcome the human reality of neural linguistic propaganda. There are also means, although difficult to retrain the conservative hyperbole.

If you think your brain is separate from your heart or body it is not.
That is where the subconscious comes in but that is story for another time. Acting your way to change is even more powerful than thinking your way to a change.


Dave the Gnome, is this what you wanted?

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 02:31 PM

Next chapter
the frame of the strict father idea and the subconscious.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 03:48 PM

Pretty much, Donuel, but it is a lot to take in. It takes me months to learn a new tune. Probably take years for this! Luckily, my brother is skilled in NLP and worked for a long time in personal coaching. We are due for some fraternal quality time so I will seek assistance.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 17 - 09:33 PM

Its not rocket science. It's more like common sense squared.
As a dyslexic I am not learning disabled but I do have communication deficits. Perhaps what we have here, is a fay-ya ta communicate.
Besides songs take me years to master, be it on the cello or ukulele.
Damn the no talent, full speed ahead.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 08:13 AM

Historic reference
World wide personal accounts of events
OLD IDEAS
new ideas
literary contributions
music technique and lessons
personal relationships
gargantuan song data base
mental health
physical health
overarching humane and kind ethos
A virtual anthology of humor ;

all seem to outweigh the tantrums, thought drift and variable tempers of a miniscule minority on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 11:25 AM

..imagine you come to mudcat and discover all the forum threads have been permanently deleted overnight..
The song database is still available, but the only content on the front page is PR 'news' releases from record labels...

The reason given being "it's a major update that gives modern users what they want".

No debate, minimal notice, no regard for protests.. just discarded by one almighty corporate decision...


That's exactly what happened to IMDB recently.. years of user generated database
lovingly contributed by enthusiasts, film makers, academics, critics,
all that accumulated serious knowledge, interaction, and researchable material, just disappeared forever...

Kinda puts our petty grumbles & dissatisfactions with mudcat into perspective.........

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 01:17 PM

They did that on Chiff and Fipple a few years ago. Just completely wiped from existence the non-music political section. Il n'existe plus! Year Zero!

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 03:16 PM

"After 16 years, IMDb's message boards and the ability to privately message other users is shutting down, with many members of the community openly mourning the loss of the section. IMDb, which stands from the Internet Movie Database, is one of the world's biggest databases for film and television. According to the company, there is information on more than 4.1 million titles and 7.7 million personalities available on the site as of January 2017. The message board, which was introduced in 2001, reportedly remains one of the most used services on the website, but despite that, the company is getting ready to shut it down, citing a desire to foster a positive environment and serve its audience the best way it can.

"After in-depth discussion and examination, we have concluded that IMDb's message boards are no longer providing a positive, useful experience for the vast majority of our more than 250 million monthly users worldwide," a statement on the site reads. "The decision to retire a long-standing feature was made only after careful consideration and was based on data and traffic. Because IMDb's message boards continue to be utilized by a small but passionate community of IMDb users, we announced our decision to disable our message boards on February 3, 2017 but will leave them open for two additional weeks so that users will have ample time to archive any message board content they'd like to keep for personal use. During this two-week transition period, which concludes on February 19, 2017, IMDb message board users can exchange contact information with any other board users they would like to remain in communication with (since once we shut down the IMDb message boards, users will no longer be able to send personal messages to one another).""

Subject: RE: What Good Is Mudcat?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 03:25 PM

QUOTE: The Guardian

"In a statement on its website, the IMDb said it had "concluded that IMDb's message boards are no longer providing a positive, useful experience for the vast majority of our more than 250 million monthly users worldwide", and that the decision was "based on data and traffic".

More specifically, the company – which was set up in 1990 by Bristol-based IT worker Col Needham and later sold to Amazon – said that a shift to social media had made the message boards less vital; users, they said, had "migrated to IMDb's social media accounts as the primary place they choose to post comments and communicate with IMDb's editors and one another".

The message boards had long been seen by Needham as an integral part of the IMDb's appeal. He told the Guardian in 2013: "The human brain likes to make connections. Somebody spots a connection between two things ... you want to share that knowledge. And IMDb is a good platform.""


Has mudcat similarly diminished since certain cliques apparently deserted mudcat to set up their own cosy private gated community on facebook...???