Tech: App for transcribing songs?

Subject: Tech: App to transcribe songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 12:17 AM

Somehow I've never been able to learn to write down the tunes to songs I've written, and it's a bit late to do so now. But I'd really like to be able to put them down in staff notation.

There are a number of apps for ipad which claim to be able to help, so I'm hoping maybe someone out there can advise me what to try using.

What I want is to be able to play a simple melody line into my ipad mike with a guitar and get a staff notation of the tune Incan print. No worry about sticking in chords or harmonies, I can sort that myself.

If anyone can help I'll be very grateful. And if possible as soon as possible - I've got a deadline for a choir.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 01:30 AM

Kevin, if you find a program like that and it works well, we will all be in your debt. I've tried a number of them, all with little success.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 04:29 AM

A midi instrument playing into midi software could achieve your goal. However learning how to get the results you want with that setup could be as difficult as learning how to write notation yourself. Easier and faster would be finding a human being who already has the required skills, in either midi or notation, and persuading them to do it for you. Good luck.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 05:23 AM

A viable solution I've mentioned in previous threads..

One reasonably effective / affordable method is to use a USB pitch to midi converter
which transcribes to notation in computer midi sequencer software.

The i2M musicport costs about £70 [Amazon / or direct from distributer] and has positive reviews for accurate tracking.

For example, you plug in a guitar, or even a mic
and play, or sing, single note melodies [not chords].
this is tracked and transcribed to notation in real time.

If interested, you need to google / read up on user feedback [& youtube videos] to see how convincing you might find this new technology.

There is a learning curve, but it's not that difficult.

I've used an earlier version of this technology to trigger midi synths with an electric guitar
and it worked great straight out of the box.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 05:44 AM

Music editors have evolved over the past two decades.

Read some of their discussions boards - three of standards are:
Sibelius

Maestro

www.toptenreviews.com/software/home/best-music-notation-software/


Cakewalk reviewed with Sibelius

www.dancingdots.com/prodesc/SibSONARComp.htm


Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 07:23 AM

As Gargoyle says, facilities like that have evolved over the last few years. I'm hoping that somewhere it's evolved to the state where it can give me what I want - a music editor which allows me to play the notes of a tune on an ordinary guitar into a mike, and turns that into a page of written music with just those notes.

And rather than rely on reviews by people with very different musical requirements, I'm hoping that someone out there with my kind of requirements has found what I'm looking for, and used it.

Joe's post makes me wonder if the search might be a hard one. But in a world where cheap chromatic electronic tuners can identify what note you are playing, and print-to-speech software is commonplace, I'm still hopeful.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 09:10 AM

If you really want to preserve what you've written, do it by audio recording instead. If they're worth singing, there will probably be subtleties of timing and expression that no computer-assisted notation system gets.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 12:53 PM

"I'm hoping that somewhere it's evolved to the state where it can give me what I want - a music editor which allows me to play the notes of a tune on an ordinary guitar into a mike, and turns that into a page of written music with just those notes...
I'm hoping that someone out there with my kind of requirements has found what I'm looking for, and used it."

I did...

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 01:35 PM

If you are balking at shelling out 70 quid for a truly useful USB adapter''
the same developer also sells a 7 quid ios app that supposedly does the same audio pitch to midi conversion almost as well...

http://www.sonuus.com/products_g2m_app.html

so.. how much is an apple iphone....??? 🙄

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 02:25 PM

I noticed that last one punkfolkrocker suggests still wants you to plug in an electric guitar, and just gives a midi, rather than a musical staff. Still it sounds interesting. But you say "supposedly", indicating it's not one you actually used.

True enough, Jack, audio recording is a better record of what you actually do. But there are situations where written music is needed, with singing groups sometimes - and of course with any written publication.
.........
Apple iphone? Not something I'd shell out for. Phones are basically for phone calls, I feel. though a few extra facilities are handy. I recently upgraded to a Doro 8030, designed in Sweden with aged people like me in mind, simple to use and good loud sound when I'm making a phone call. You could buy six of those for the price of a modern iphone.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 02:59 PM

I am currently using my third free iPhone. I virtually never use it (or anything else) as a phone. In the last few days it's been an Internet device, SMS text terminal, camera and personal audio player.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 03:28 PM

Others may be aware of freeware PC software that effectively converts and notates guitar melody lines
through a laptop built in mic..
but so far no one has posted suchlike here..

In the meantime, that USB converter is proven to work with mics as well as instruments plugged in direct.
That provides the pitch to midi stage of the process..
The software such as Garg suggests, or many of the cheap or free sequencer programmes should then provide the notation function...

In practice you would hum or la la la the melody into a mic and see it translated to notation..
With careful mic placement, and a suitable quiet room, I'm fairly certain a guitar melody line should work ok...
trial and error..

Of course the procedure would be more reliable with a guitar with a pickup plugged in direct.

I know from experience that the technology works effectively at pitch to midi conversion,
and could have easily recorded the midi data to a sequencer and translated to notation if I'd needed to.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 05:00 PM

Maybe this.... (I have not tried it)

http://scorecloud.com/

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 05:28 PM

Yes, scorecloud is one that I'd seen online. But then I read some grouchy comments from people who'd been using it and came unstuck - but I got the impression they were wanting stuff from it that I might not. I'm hoping some Mudcatter might have tried it to use it for the kind of stuff I'm interested in doing. If no one has tried it, I'll probably try it out myself, and report back. But it's only a few hours since I started this thread, so I live in hope.

What I'd want to be doing would be pluck the notes of the tune into the mike rather than humming. But the business of getting from there to a page of music is the problem. When it comes to technology, I'm a user rather than an understander. The same way that I can drive all right, but I'm lost when it comes to anything under the hood. And that goes double for computers.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 05:59 PM

I sorted thru the FAQ ... and the problem is that in order to save your output offline, you need a paid account. I'm not sure, but it 'seems' that once you create a score, it is saved online... visible but not downloadable as such.
   What I wonder is whether, once you SEE your score, you can 'get' it with a screen capture program.... and there ARE free ones that will grab even a scrolling window. I almost never pay for programs, so am constantly looking for workarounds.

   I suppose that someone who is seriously writing music would consider the pay aspects of this to be worth it.... *shrug*....

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 17 - 10:27 PM

I had a go at scorecloud, and it doesn't seem to work properly, even aside from the stuff Bill mentioned. It just couldn't seem to be able to deal with even the simplest of tunes, either picked out on a guitar or hummed. Just said "unable to analyse".

I'm suspecting Stanron is right and I need to find a human being with the necessary skills and the time to spare. Or overcome my indolence and get down to learning how to do it myself.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 07:32 AM

How many songs do you have?

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 09:45 AM

Jack is right: the subtle timing changes that performers add gets in the way. Anything like a midi to notation converter is likely to get a mass of hemidemisemiquaver rests, notes of equally odd timings and so on. If   the interface allows you to set minimum recognised lengths you can very easily fail to capture everything you need. I had an analogous problem splitting audio input into distinct tracks. The automated system detected periods of silence (or low noise) and if the silence as long enough it assumed a new track. This was a total failure on solo unaccompanied voices and I spent so much time merging tracks that should not have split and splitting those that should that in the end it was faster just to do the whole caboodle manually.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 09:51 AM

fwiw...
I wouldn't say that I can 'read' music but I occasionally use Finale Notepad* to reproduce a tune by sliding notes around till I find the right one. Or use the keyboard to enter the actual notes. You can also use the keyboard to specify intervals of chords.
Files save as .mid or .mus and export to MusicXML which can then be changed into text & abcnotation for sharing
(http://mandolintab.net/abcconverter.php)
~~~~~~~
*the free one : http://www.finalemusic.com/blog/now-available-free-finale-notepad-download/ (on the registration pg > "remind me later"))

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 11:31 AM

It's not what you've requested McG (and I'd like to see that type of app if a viable one turns up) but I've been using a program called TablEdit to produce notation for my own tunes and to write out tunes to learn and it's served me very well. If you understand tablature you can put a number in the staff and it will show as both tab and standard notation. When you've finished a composition you can print it as either tab or standard notation or both simultaneously. It takes a while to learn how to use all it's many components but you should be able to start turning out projects in a very short time. There is a free trial program available.


TablEdit

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 01:29 PM

Some thoughts here that might help - Transcribing

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 05:08 PM

The reason I asked how many songs is that I would not mind transcribing one or two, but not a whole lifetimes work. In order to do this I would need a sound file of the songs. Files with an extension of '.wav' are too large to attach to emails. The mp3 file format is a lot smaller so an email with an mp3 file attached would do. I will produce a file for a program called Musescore. The program is a free down load. I can also provide a PDF of the file. No charge for just one or two songs. Maybe others will make similar offers.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 05:36 PM

I suppose it's good to feel there are still some human activities the robots can't yet match.

Some of the suggested apps and linked discussions focus on transcription as involving recording in a useful way on paper actual performances, either audio-recorded or live, and that's a much bigger challenge than anything I'm looking for. It

Some solution along the way Freddie suggests mught be my best way forward, if combined with some easy way for converting abc to staff. All preferably without having to switch from using one app to using another. The trouble is, I suppose, the number of people trying to do this kind of thing is pretty small.

What's needed is for some rich writer of songs who can't write them down to sponsor people to develop the software - rather the way I believe Stevie Wonder did a lot to finance and encourage the development of print-to-speech technology. Though of course that was a much more important project in itself - being unable to write tunes down is a nuisance I could solve for myself with enough effort, being unable to see print to read is far more serious a matter, and not much you can do to remedy it.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 08:06 PM

And thanks Stanron, and I jump at the chance. I'm in touch with you on the PMs about this. I've given a link to a (very) rough rendering I've just put on on youtube for some friends in Harlow who've asked for it.

If anyone cares to see it, it's an open youtube clip, The Green Heart of Harlow. Note the guest appearance of our cat Piper in the second verse, which is largely about animals anyway.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 08:16 PM

Hi Kevin.

I've got the bulk of it done and I'll get the words in it tomorrow and transpose it to C. There are a couple of notes that could be one or another. If you could get some way of listening to it to check it would help. I hope to get the files to you by email tomorrow.

Stan

PS a cat upstaging from downstage. Typical.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 09:42 PM

A bit like that "Korean expert" interview.

But he timed it so well, when I'm singing about ponies and sheep and pigeons etc...

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 22 Mar 17 - 09:50 PM

You gladden my heart, Stanron!

I've been moseying around Mudcat since the late '90s and whilst having never met him, have known McGrath through his posts for a good proportion of that time.

Always struck me as a decent bloke, got worried once about his heart scare, and am glad that he's back.

Kindest regards to both Stan and Kevin!

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 08:34 AM

Jeeez McGrath of Harlow, For the first time I've seen you "live" on Youtube. I thought it was my twin brother ! Beard, glasses, Receding (?) hair , the lot. My twin lives in Australia while I live in Ireland but, now, it appears that we have a "triplet" in Harlow :-)
I wish I was tech-savvy enough to be able to put up a photo of us two, so that you could see the remarkable resemblance. We, btw, are 77 yrs old now also :-)

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 08:36 AM

Oh , and that is a fine song that you've written, I hope that you will be able to have it notated for posterity. Harlow hasn't too many songs about it, does it?

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 08:53 AM

Greetings, Beachcomber. But I reckon we've a fair number of twins about. I remember I was at a folk festival once, and my son was dropping in and had arranged to meet me in a pub where I was enjoying myself singing and drinking. He poked his head in, and phoned my wife back home: "I went to see Dad in the pub, but I couldn't spot him. The place was full of blokes who looked just like him."

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 11:57 AM

Great! Stanron has done the transcription for me and sent it by email. And as well as the score itself, there's a file for a brilliant app called MuseScore which he told me about, which enables me at a flick of a finger to hear what he's written, to check it for accuracy (a test which it has of course passed), and also allows me to switch the written score to any other key, and hear what it sounds like.

Thanks a million, Stan. Now I can get it off to other people.

The Mudcat is an amazing community. Like Alice's Restaurant - you can anything you want here.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 06:46 PM

I'll have to take a look at musescore
https://musescore.org
Thanks
,..................

K McG..... I don't know if you noticed, I used FinaleNotepad & Mandolintab(links above) to make a simple version of your Marmite song.
I don't know how close it is to your original singing....
thread.cfm?threadid=38363%26%2365533%3B#3845966 

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 08:37 PM

My "app" is my one and only working ear, plus a knowledge of how to notate music and some music theory, acquired at an early age before all my brain cells started dying off!
I also use the free version of Finale Notepad for notating scores: the playback facility is useful for making sure I've got it right, or for checking that any harmonies are really harmonising. YouTube also helps for finding the version you want of a particular song or tune: 2 screens too, so that you can stop and start the audio, while notating the tune on the other screen. if it's in an odd key, I'll notate it in that key, then use the transpose facility on Finale Notepad to put into a key I can either sing or play.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 08:45 PM

Greatly appreciated Freddy.

One problem with FinaleNotepad is that it's not available for ipads. And with MuseScore, in order to actually write a score you need to use a related programme that's not available on ipads. So you have to have a laptop or desktop.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 08:51 PM

On a reverse note, I seem to remember a shareware scanner OCR program from circa 15 years ago
that was claimed to scan sheet music, then auto translate the notes to midi for playback....???

Anyone have any clue what that was and how it might have advanced in reliability...???

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 09:00 PM

Sibelius is supposed to be able to scan a score, make it into a Sibelius file which can then be played, saved and exported to midi.

No good for me as I'm on Linux and don't have a scanner.

Subject: RE: Tech: App for transcribing songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 17 - 10:06 PM

Too much overlapping technology, doing sort of the same thing but not quite, in different ways. It's a jungle. Brilliant stuff, but a jungle. With nasty beasts out there ready to chew you up.