BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 08:09 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(Roman_army)

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 08:12 AM

Very true Shaw I am "not very keen on eye-witness accounts as historical documents." especially when those "eye-witness accounts" refer to things that never happened to such an extent that:

When they come out with such tales as British soldiers being summarily executed by Officers or special military police units for not "going over the top" quickly enough:

1: They cannot identify a place
2: They cannot provide a date
3: They cannot identify a Regiment or Unit involved
4: They cannot provide any information related to the name of any victim
5: They cannot provide the name of any perpetrator.
6: They cannot provide any information as to numbers of victims.

Other aspects that cast doubt on such tales:

- If you are in the line and about to attack you will be with the members of your platoon and your Company and your Regiment - you will not be among a bunch of complete and utter strangers, you will KNOW the men surrounding you, you will have trained with them, worked with them, drank with them, fought with them and shared every hardship with them. To say in any of these "eye-witness accounts" that you didn't know them is ludicrous bullshit.

- Take a look at photographs of any front line trench fully manned as they would be before an attack, look at the interconnecting communication trenches. There simply isn't any room for Officers or special units to stand behind anyone in readiness to shoot them. Anyone attempting such a stunt would be ripped to shreds in seconds by their victim's friends.

That British soldiers were summarily executed by their own officers or special military police units is a MYTH. Those who claim and hold to it that such activities did take place have not been able to come up with one single instance in four years of kicking this back and forth on this forum.

Oh and Shaw such "eye-witness accounts" can in no way be the same as the minuted notes and records of formal meetings and informal personal notes written by participants at those meetings at the time as they:

1: Identify the time and place of the meetings referred to.
2: Identify those participating in the meeting.
3; Detail the agenda of the meeting.

ALL OF WHICH CAN BE VERIFIED. See the difference Shaw?

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 08:29 AM

From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 08:09 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(Roman_army)

Uh oh, looks like Shaw is once again shown to be full of 💩💩💩 .

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 08:31 AM

"You've been linkeed several times to Lloy'd Gourge's 'sign or in   three days it is war'" - Jim Carroll

Hate to point this out to you Jim but the meetings were peace negotiations called during a Truce that had been declared on the 22nd July 1921. If none of this means anything to you dipshit - it means that there was already a war in progress, a war declared by Irish republicans in January 1919. OF COURSE if there was no agreement hostilities would RESUME

Jim Carroll - 28 Mar 17 - 08:07 AM

"Just a reminder Teribus - you still appear to believe that you can bully and bluster your archaic history without producing a single documanted fact t back it up"

So what about the following for documented back up:

1: Government of Ireland Act 1914
2: Government of Ireland Act 1920
3: Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 08:54 AM

I know when the war started and I know when the negotiations took place - I also know that the War of independence came a
bout when Britain's brutish intransigence became obvious and that the forcing though of a Treaty brought Ireland to Civil War
"So what about the following for documented back up:"
Then why don't you quote from them when you arrogantly bluster your way through your archaic arguments - any moron can point to things - as you are showing
Back your post Empire jingoism with facts not meaningless gestures.
In you7r racist manner you spent nearly a year denigrating an entire nation for acknowleging a significant historical event - show usd how you know more than they do with facts- nor bullying bluster.
Anybody who needs to have it explained to him why a country with the population the size Ireland which lost over two million through famine and emigration wwould not survive its youth being slaughtered on The Somme is seriosly in need of a knowledge transplant.
Stop friggin' bluffing - you know sweet fuck all about Ireland and her history
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 09:06 AM

[...studiously trying to ignore the drivel of the last hour...]

There's no "vocal minority" doing it, Nigel. There's ordinary people using the words in new ways. Yesterday, I went out into my veg plot with determination and decimated the weeds. Think there's anything wrong with that? "Decimated" has been used in that sense for four hundred years whether you like it or not. The Romans used the word "decimatio" for the practice, but it took another 1500 years before the word popped up in English, and then it usually referred to the taking of tithe. The supply of iceberg lettuces this winter was decimated by bad weather in southern Spain. No-one bothered to check whether it was one in ten. It also means the killing of one-tenth of Roman legions. No problem If the context is understood. Its commonest 16th century meaning was the taking of tithes, nothing to do with punishments. Use it that way if you like, though no-one will know what you're talking about, but it has at least as much historical validity apropos of the use of English as the punishment sense you're valiantly defending. No-one is telling anyone else what they should or shouldn't do. You seem to be accusing me of insisting on its modern usage only, but actually I'm just reflecting what the usage is. If you insist on its historical meaning only, you're at risk of sounding a bit quaint. I'm left-handed. That makes me sinister. The English language is one of the last great bastions of democracy. Anyone for a gay evening at the fair?

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 09:14 AM

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 09:20 AM

You are stalking. Cut it out. Now. The moderators have asked me to bring you to their attention if you do it, and you're doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 09:29 AM

Shaw: derived from the Medieval Latin word "decimatus" which related to tithing, or taking a tenth, nothing to do with punishment or killing.

Wikipedia: the word decimation is derived from Latin meaning "removal of a tenth".[1] The procedure was a pragmatic attempt to balance the need to punish serious offences with the realities of managing a large group of offenders.[2]

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000". Dictionary.reference.com. Retrieved 2014-03-22.:decimate: to select by lot and kill every tenth person of.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 09:31 AM

Improve your scholarship.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 09:38 AM

Run crying to the moderators now and tell them I have shown you to be full of 💩💩💩, there's the lad.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 10:00 AM

There's no "vocal minority" doing it, Nigel. There's ordinary people using the words in new ways
I somehow doubt that the change in the use of the word 'Gay' was brought about due to the requirements of the majority. I believe it was brought in by a vocal minority.

I went out into my veg plot with determination and decimated the weeds I think anyone stating that in the allotments would quickly become a laughing stock. Not really sons of the soil type language is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 10:04 AM

Hard to tell when prejudice kept gays from raising their voice anyway
The term was in use much earlier than the 'Gay Rights' movement - Larry Grayson was using it in the Sixties to me recollection
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 10:37 AM

Yes, Larry Grayson used to use the catchphrase "What a gay day". But despite the campness of his act I never associated his use of the word 'gay' with anything other than 'carefree and cheerful'.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 10:44 AM

Apparently not, according to the dictionary definition
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 11:08 AM

According to 'The Insect that Stole Butter (Oxford Dictionary of Word Origins,) "gay" was fully in use in the 1930s among homosexuals, but there are indications that it is earlier than this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 11:16 AM

Steve, if your version of "decimate" is accepted, then I was right to deny Jim's claim about British soldiers in WW1.
Also McGrath was wrong to correct me.

Thanks for you impartiality in contradicting them and supporting me.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 11:27 AM

Rubbish, it was simply a smokescreen to obscure the true meaning of the word homosexual.

"Gay" activists didn't like homosexuals being defined by their sexual behaviour and decided to purloin the word gay.

Unfortunately for them we are all defined in sexual terms by our orientation. Should we find a nice user friendly word to describe our heterosexuality?    Or are we all adults here?

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 11:41 AM

"Rubbish, it was simply a smokescreen to obscure the true meaning of the word homosexual."
Homophobis rubbish - t was used among gays, not to hide anything from anybody
Your raving homophobia is once more confirmed by your claiming that we need a "nicer" term for a natural human condition - what on earth is not nice about being gay
You really are the pits of humanity (sic) Ake - nowt nice about your brand of gender hatred
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 12:14 PM

Big Al Whittle - 27 Mar 17 - 11:49 AM

Keith and Teribus....is history really your thing?

so far we've had the caring side of first world war generals, now England's sefless struggle for Irish independence....

Well it would certainly seem to be more our thing than yours Big Al.

By any metric you wish to measure success by those who commanded the British, Commonwealth and Empire forces during the First World War did so far better than those who commanded any of the other combatant armies of 1914. As an enlisted soldier or officer you stood a far better chance on surviving the conflict as part of the British Armed Forces than you would being in either the French, German, or Russian Armies. Now if you wish to refute that then address the facts not the person telling you about them.

When in January 1919 two police officers of the Royal Irish Constabulary escorting a consignment of explosives to a quarry were deliberately murdered in cold blood by the IRA and Sinn Fein declared independence the British Government could have swamped Ireland with masses of the 5 million men it had under arms, all combat hardened veterans straight from the 100 days offensive that swept the Germans before them and ended the war - They didn't Big Al because they had already decided immediately before the war to grant Home Rule with Dominion status to Ireland. Sinn Fein and the "men of the gun" apparently so admired by the likes of yourself and Carroll completely screwed that process up and demonstrated to the political leadership of the Northern Unionists precisely what complete and utter wankers they were. There was NO glorious and bloody guerrilla war fought in the South against the Brits it didn't amount to more than sporadic skirmishes before the Republican side ran out of steam and a truce was called. The Government of Great Britain could have ignored the calls for peace talks BUT they didn't. The talks were held that resulted in the Anglo-Irish Treaty which became the Irish Free State Constitution Act of 1922 - the Government of Great Britain having signed off on it in December 1921 a full year before the clowns in Dublin finally ratified it (That delay Big Al was all down to the Irish who had decided that they wanted to fight and kill one another in a totally pointless civil war). No reluctance at all on the part of "England" to let Ireland go and the proof of that is there for all to see - if history WAS really your thing, but as I said at the beginning as far as you are concerned it obviously isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 12:28 PM

I didn't say there was anything wrong with the word gay, it expresses very well the feeling of happiness and joy.

The problem is that it is now never used in its proper context, people feel intimidated by its new association.   We have lost one of the nicest words in the English language.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 01:03 PM

Teribus - the English government has many years and many opportunities to divest itself of Ireland.

it hasn't.

as our history proves when want to do something, we will.

when the alchemists produced formulae to prove they could make gold, eventually they accepted they were wrong. after centuries....

if your facts come up with a conclusion that is obviously bollocks. then somewhere along the line - you have to accept you have got it wrong.

i don't have centuries to spend on this nonsense. you remind me of a kid in our first year class exam at the grammar school who proved that the escalator at KIngs Cross Station was moving at 60mph. the teacher couldn't convince him his calculation was wrong. but with most of us commonsense kicks in.

think of all those days and years, when no English politician said - right this week, this month we'll get rid of fucking Ireland. between 1914 and now......and yet you insist it was a prime intention.

in the bowels of Christ...consider that you might be wrong.

and while you're at it consider some of the names on a cenotaph near you and think - did the commanders of these men give due consideration to how those lives were expended? common fucking sense tells most of us - they got it mega wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 01:20 PM

Ever wish you hadn't mentioned something? Sheesh.



Nigel, this isn't me saying this, but decimate has been used since time immemorial to mean to lay waste to, to severely damage, to annihilate or to devastate, without particular reference to one-in-ten. It's also been used in the one-in-ten punishment sense. Neither attracts comment in my experience, either by horny-handed sons of toil down the allotments or by anyone else.

How about "poor farming practices have decimated the songbird population in the last fifty years?" Are your eyebrows raised? It's what people say, Nigel, and any lingusitics guru worth his or her salt will tell you that that's all that matters. King Canutes like you and akenaton can't stop the language evolving, and I'll drink to that. Perhaps a small glass of Mount Gay rum.

And Keith, I don't care how you interpret my remarks. I'm not even reading your exceptionally tedious and repetitive posts much at all these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 01:21 PM

Linguistics. Why didn't my over-fussy spell-checker pick that up!

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 01:37 PM

"I didn't say there was anything wrong with the word gay, it expresses very well the feeling of happiness and joy."
Yes you did - you said it was used as a smokescreen - why shouuld anybody have need for such a thing?
You really need to stay at the bottom of the loch where all good dinosaurs should be confined to make the world safe for human beings
"Gay" activists didn't like homosexuals being defined by their sexual behaviour and decided to purloin the word gay"
That's a load of distateful crap too - as the definition points out, the term was in use long before homosexuals could openly express their homosexuality without the law being used against them
You paint the picture of a secret plot.
Jesus - you are a distasteful piece of work
"the British Government could have swamped Ireland with masses of the 5 million men it had under arms"
The worst incident of this perid w
Crap history again you bend the facts to suit the agenda.
You carefully forget to mention that on 24 April 1915 the Unionists had SMUGGLED ARMS into Irelandto be used against Republicans if there was any chance of a United Ireland.
Any action the Republicans used can be quite safely declared self defensive.
"As early as 1893, plans were floated to raise 2,000-4,000 men, to drill as soldiers in Ulster. Many Ulster Unionists interpreted the southern and western violence directed against land grievances as pro-Home Rule (and thus believed Home Rule was appeasement of this violence), and resolved to defy the government militarily."
"In 1912 the Ulster Volunteers. They were formed from 100,000 local militia and were reviewed marching by Carson that April. The Unionist Council reorganised the volunteers in January 1913 into the paramilitary Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF), who threatened to resist by physical force the implementation of the Act and the authority of any restored Dublin Parliament by force of arms, fearing that Dublin rule would mean the ascendency of Catholicism—in the words of one MP, that "'home rule' in Ireland would prove to be 'Rome Rule'."[17] In 1912 the Ulster Volunteers. They were formed from 100,000 local militia and were reviewed marching by Carson that April. The Unionist Council reorganised the volunteers in January 1913 into the paramilitary Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF), who threatened to resist by physical force the implementation of the Act and the authority of any restored Dublin Parliament by force of arms, fearing that Dublin rule would mean the ascendency of Catholicism—in the words of one MP, that "'home rule' in Ireland would prove to be 'Rome Rule'."
The events of 1919 came 26 years after the Unionists had armed themselves, trained their forces and made ready for war
The worst incident of the period took place in Desertmartin, County Derry in 1922 and toppd the killing of the two policemen by a mile

Desertmartin, County Derry
The attack and the killings by Specials in Desertmartin on 19 May 1922 was one of the worst sectarian incidents during this period. Two Specials started a small fire in a large four-storey mill in the village; the plan was to take credit for having discovered it, put it out and place the blame on the mainly nationalist population of the village. The fire, however, got out of control and the mill was gutted. The Specials responsible for setting the fire claimed to have seen two men running away from the scene, and this was sufficient excuse for Specials from the area and from nearby Magherafelt to loot and burn Catholic-owned homes and shops in Desertmartin. Where it was not possible to burn a house, because of adjacent Protestant neighbours, furniture and possessions were throw into the street and became part of a bonfire. While this mayhem was going on in the village, a number of Specials, in uniform, went to the homes of the Catholic McGeehan and Higgins families, took two sets of brothers out to a lonely country lane, lined them up against a ditch and riddled them with bullets. The Sunday after this slaughter four hearses brought their remains to Coolcalm church in Desertmartin, where they were interred in a single grave. At the inquest into their deaths the police admitted that they were respectable men who had never previously come to their notice
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 01:42 PM

Face it, Jim. We're surrounded by 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 01:58 PM

How on earth has a thread about Martin McGuiness turned into a discussion about the common use of English words?

On second thoughts I am probably better off not knowing. I suspect a certain amount of not picking was involved. Probably by the people who whinge about staying on topic.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 02:01 PM

How on earth has a thread about Martin McGuiness turned into a discussion about the common use of English words?

I guess someone decimated it

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 02:04 PM

THIS moderator bails whenever a thread is taken over by assholes and turned into just another chapter of the Jim & Keith show. Shut up, talk about the subject, or I-don't-give-a-shit.

...actually I don't. This is somebody else's problem. Mostly those folks who hope to discuss a subject without the obsessives taking it over again. Good luck. As long as they're still here, most political threads are their bitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 02:29 PM

"THIS moderator bails whenever a thread is taken over by assholes and turned into just another chapter of the Jim & Keith show."
The way you insult members of this forum, maybe it's just as well
You may be happy to see racists run riot without being challenged Jeri, I am not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 02:42 PM

"Mostly those folks who hope to discuss a subject without the obsessives taking it over again. Good luck. As long as they're still here, most political threads are their bitch."

Sums it up perfectly.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 02:52 PM

Everybody thinks it's the other guy.............lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 03:52 PM

in truth Martin McGuinness was a controversial character. I think some sort of do with 'fists flying and biddies crying' is just being properly respectful.

How the decimalisation crept in, is anyone's guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 04:00 PM

"decimate has been used since time immemorial to mean to lay waste to, to severely damage, to annihilate or to devastate, without particular reference to one-in-ten." - Steve Shaw

No it hasn't. That meaning is modern over-emotive twaddle.

As a means of punishment and enforcing discipline it was measured so as NOT to affect the fighting capability of the unit - NOTHING even remotely close to:

- Lay waste to;
- severely damage;
- annihilation (total destruction);
- devastation.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 04:09 PM

Everybody thinks it's the other guy.

Boo, YOU are "the other guy".

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 04:09 PM

lets just leave that it doesn't mean to be kind and supportive and buy a nice box of chocolates for the party in question.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 04:53 PM

Boo, YOU are "the other guy"

Lol, funny, I was thinking it was you 😵

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 06:04 PM

Modern over-emotive twaddle? Give over, Bill. You're the past master when it comes to changing the meanings of words! Why, you transformed Keith's downright lie to a mere "passing reference!" Anyway, you say tomayto, I'll say Solanum lycopersicum. Or pomodoro. Or love apple. Or tomato at a pinch (preferably a pinch of chilli flakes and a finely-sliced garlic clove, a half-teaspoon of sugar and a pinch of salt, simmered with extra virgin olive oil for half an hour, not forgetting to add a handful of torn basil leaves for the last two minutes). Don't challenge me on words, Billy boy. Even the much-lamented MGM came to grief via that endeavour. You are welcome to look up the etymology and historical usage of decimate. Everything I've said is correct. Check it out! Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 07:15 PM

Synonyms of "decimation" from Merriam-Webster, Bill. Are you ready?

annihilation, destruction, demolishment, demolition, desolation, devastation, extermination, extinction, havoc, loss, mincemeat, obliteration, ruin, ruination, wastage, wreckage

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 07:27 PM

This, from 'The Oxford Book of Word Origins' (entitled 'The Insect that Stole Butter')
I would recommend anybody who hasn't got a copy of this should get their hands on one.
It's probable one of the most entertaining books on our shelves, not to mention useful
Jim Carroll

""DECIMATE [LME] When Roman legions mutinied, they would be decimated—one in every ten men would be selected by lot and executed. In its first recorded use in English, in the late 16th century, decimate refers to this practice, but by the mid 17th century people were using it of other acts of killing, destroying, or removing one in ten. They then lost sight of the military context, and soon any severe loss or destruction could be described as decimation. See also DECADE""
("LME stands for Latin Middle English, by the way)

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 07:29 PM

The wiki entry for "gay" is intriguing. It seems that the word may have been used for homosexual in the late 19th century.   It was a long road for the word in the 20th century before it became universally adopted for that sense by the latter part of the century. "Queer" was too pejorative and "homosexual" was too clinical, so "gay," being neither, fitted the bill very well. There is no sense that the word was deliberately or suddenly usurped by the gay community, contrary to what our ignorant and bigoted friend thinks. Of course, no-one has to believe wiki. We can always choose to believe akenaton instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 07:34 PM

But Jim, we must always attend to the ex cathedra word of the mighty Teribus, king of the lexicon! If he says that a usage that doesn't suit him is "modern, over-emotive twaddle," who are we to demur! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 02:05 AM

"Queer" was too pejorative and "Gay" has simply become viewed as being the same.

The Jeremy Thorpe trial threw up some entertaining alternatives IIRC, pity they didn't catch on.

By the way Shaw, I thought it was you who set yourself up as the Lexicon King. Not my problem at all if people abuse and misuse words and rob them of their meaning, all that does is display ignorance and completely corrupt what the person using it was trying to say (As Jim did when he introduced the word to this thread).

Not surprised that you and Carroll follow this line it assists you in the misrepresentations you try to put across.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 02:51 AM

Al, like most folk of our generation I once shared your view of WW1.
Historical knowledge has moved on, and I have just followed it.
Nothing published in the last twenty of years supports those myths many still believe. Teribus and I have just related what any historian now will tell you. Read a book.

Irish history is different. Their is an industry devoted to sustaining historical myths.
No-one can deny that a home rule bill was passed in 1914.
No-one can deny that Britain wanted Ireland to remain united after home rule but the North refused to accept it and were fully prepared to fight.
I accept that the heroic narrative of brave Republican Davids overcoming the British Empire Goliath is a much more appealing story.

You have made it clear that your mind is closed to such boring facts, so let's please Jeri and drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 04:29 AM

"You have made it clear that your mind is closed to such boring facts, so let's please Jeri and drop it."
Jeri hasn't asked the subject to be dropped, but I can see why you have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 04:46 AM

How about "poor farming practices have decimated the songbird population in the last fifty years?" Are your eyebrows raised? It's what people say, Nigel, and any lingusitics guru worth his or her salt will tell you that that's all that matters.
That's better than your example about weeds, and yes, I would accept that if I read it. The meaning has expanded to mean 'destroy a large percentage of, rather than kill 10%, but the various dictionaries still relate it to people, animals, or other creatures. I still think you'd be laughed at for using it to refer to plantlife.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 04:57 AM

Incidentally Keith
You have just been presented with more "boring facts" about the origins of violence in Northern Ireland
I assume that your efforts to end this discussion are not unrelated to your and your fick mate's inability to respond to them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 05:16 AM

No Jim.
You have produced nothing new.
I know all your arguments and you know how they have all been knocked down on previous threads.

If you have a particular "boring facts about the origins of violence in Northern Ireland," put it up and have it knocked down again, but it will only be of interest to us. No-one else will read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 05:42 AM

That's fine then, Nigel. You have accepted that word meaning and usage can evolve, or at least be flexible, and that "decimate" can be used legitimately away from its one-in-ten sense. In fact, that usage has always been available for that word since it first appeared in English, as has its usage for tithing, though the latter usage is now more or less defunct. I can only suggest that demurrers do the scholarship. Interesting that you think I can decimate birds but not weeds, but we can let that one go I suppose.

Now, have a little word in Teribus's shell-like....🗣👂🏻

Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 06:35 AM

"You have produced nothing new."
I said at the beginning that this had been covered ad nauseum and that the violence in Ireland eminated from the Loyalist refusal to accept a United Ireland.
You have been given all this information before - the militarising of the Unionists, their introduction of weapons into the county, the treatment of Catholics under Protestant rule, the triumphalist sectarian marches, the collusion of the RUC in violently crushing of Civil rights protests....
All old news and all contradicted by your and Teribus's denials.
You have never at any time "knocked down" any of them - on the contrary, you have both slunk off with your bigoted jingoistic tails between your legs as you are attempting to do now.
You refuse to respond to historical facts and refuse to produce your own, and when you run out of excuses, you do a runner.
The only thing the pair of you are fit for is as examples of ongoing British Blimpish jingoism.
The pair of you remain a standing joke that would be more at home on the pages of PUNCH MAGAZINE and the like
You are a pair of friggin' anachronisms
Jim Carroll