Help: Historical songs

Subject: Historical songs
From: NSC
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 07:20 AM

I am looking for songs relating to 14th,15th and 16th century for a millennium project.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

George Henderson NSC

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 08:11 AM

Here are a few titles, they are easaly found, but if you cant - ask for help...
Knight William and the Shepards Daughter (Love, class, marrige and rape)
Agencourt Carrol (those happy few - again)
Johney of Bradys Lea (enclosure and hunting rights in Scotland)
Willies Lady (spells and witchcraft)
Anachie Gordon (One of the finest stories of all time)
Tam Lin (one of the oldest oldies - farries and human sacrice, and in some versions, medievil abortion -the herb that grows so grey, ...that would twine our babe away...)

Well here is a start for you
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: Willie-O
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 08:33 AM

or on a lighter note, good old Scottish mayhem ballads:

The Battle of Harlaw (Child #163) concerning a large battle fought near Aberdeen in 1411 for supremacy in the Highlands--this song rocks--recently recorded by Old Blind Dogs

The Baron of Brackley (Child #203)--the baron of Brackley is goaded by his wife to enjoin a suicidal battle with the lowlifes what are stealing his cows--turns out she is very anxious to boink the chief lowlife. Song has elements of two historical occurrences, one in 1592, the second in 1666. There's a current recording by Connie Dover

Bill C.

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 10:54 AM

Of cource, where would we be without the Mayhem of the North! Willie O
Hughie the Grame (framing on a capitol charge, clearical adultry, murder and a good hanging!)

You are just outside the timeperiod for most of the best Irish historical ballads, for example, Bold Irwin, the Shoemaker, which tells a great version of the battle of New Ross - where we made 5,000 fly.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: MMario
Date: 14 Dec 99 - 11:09 AM

Try Cantoria....Cantoria

or the 16th century ballad project....HERE

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: NSC
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 04:11 AM

Thanks folks

A great help - Any More -

Nenagh Singers Circle are organising a Millennium of Singing Festival next year and the highlight will be a recital of songs covering each century of the millennium. We have material fro the latter end of the millennium but the earler periods are more difficult. We would prefeer to use Irish material but are open to stretching it to anything celtic.

All help is very much appreciated

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 04:23 AM

George

Didn't Anuna record some settings of very early Irish poems - in Gaelic, Latin or both?

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: NSC
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 08:09 AM

Martin,

I don't know but that great historian Frank Mcgrath might know something about it.

I will talk with him this afternoon.

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 99 - 01:41 PM

Going across the channel you've got Francois Villon falling into the time slot. I'm not surer how far there are contemporary seetings of his poems, but some of them certainly sang well when Gweorges Brassens supplied the tunes.

(This is Kevin, not Frank, incidentally. NJust to stop people getting their wires crossed.)

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: NSC
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 03:57 AM

Thanks Kevin for the Info.

Anybody anything more to add?

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 09:18 AM

By "historical" songs, do you mean songs that refer to historical incidents, or songs that are historical in the sense of being very old ? T.

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: NSC
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 03:48 AM

Preferably songs relating to specific instances but any period/old songs that can be dated to a particular century would also help.

Thanks for responding T

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 02:59 PM

Try the SCA Minstrel website, and

14th, 15th centuries
R. H. Robbins, 'Secular Lyrics of the 14th and 15th Centuries'
Chambers and Sidgwick, 'Early English Lyrics'
Luria and Hoffman, 'Middle English Lyrics' (with a few tunes)

16th century:
All the broadside ballads that were meant to be sung are listed in the broadside ballad index on my website, as well as the contents of some 16th century ballad and song MSS (Ashmole 48, Rawlinson 85, Cotton Vespasian A 25 [search www.bookfinder.com on 'Peter Seng' for a book on the latter MS. I don't have it, since I have a xerox of the German journal article.]) Some of these ballads are given in Scarce Songs 1, and I have the original of "Fortune my foe" there.
Also in scarce song 1 are songs from BASSUS, 1530, (first published songbook, which also had the music) and Keele's 'Carols', c 1550 (Sole copy now in Huntington Library.

Several other 16th century song manuscripts (e.g. MS Royal Appendix 58, BL MS Addl. 31922 were reprinted in German journals (Flugel in 'Anglia' for last two, Bassus, and a fragment of Keele's Carols) in the late 19th century. I think there's a bit more in the journal 'Shakespeare's Jahrbuch', but I've never seen it.

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 04:10 PM

All pre 16th century English verse is from manuscripts, and is cataloged in Rossell Hope Robbins' 'The Index of Middle English Verse', 1943 (which I don't have).

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: Mbo
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 09:38 PM

How about:
Brian Boru's March
Deirdre's Lament For The Sons of Usnach
Avenging & Bright
Scots Wha Hae
Sir Patrick Spens

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 10:28 PM

"Avenging and Bright" is by Thomas Moore, 1811. The others are about old historical events, but there's no evidence that the songs are nearly that old. There is an old Irish song of Deirdre/Dierdre's Lamentation, (translated from Gaelic in Kinsalla's 'The Tain') but that isn't one in English for which for which we have the tune. [For sources of tune and text see the Irish tune index on my website.]

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: NSC
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 07:04 AM

Bruce O and Mbo

Thanks for all the information. I am acitvely following these suggestions up.

Our club is in Ireland and therfore Irish language is quite acceptable, and even preferred by some. But we are not ruling out any songs from anywhere. I think we would however prefer songs with a Celtic background.

Once again, thanks for the help.

George Henderson

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 08:19 AM

From The John Renbourn Group/ Live in America A Drinking Song, which is so ancient I sang it at my wedding and got throwen out. It is therefore well received by our Irish/Celtic Bretheren, on all occasions! "Ye Mariners All"

Two books that are good sources for old songs I can recommend (although only God will find the music to match)

Five Books of Song by Richard Watson Gilder (1894) The Century Co. New York and Old English Ballads Athenaem Press Series selected by Francis B. Gummere Ginn & Co. I hope you can find copies in a library they are good sources for 14th and 15th Century songs. Cordially Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 10:35 AM

Hi George Henderson: One of the problems with real old Irish songs, is as with the ones above, many of the popular ones where written by Victorian Galigores. There is a great Triona Ni Domhnail song, that although she sings a modern translation, IS about a real historical event and his from, I think the 11th cent. and is a decendant of the origional ballad, Turloch og o Boyle. In fact, I hope I dont get arrested for saying that a friend and I climed the walls of Castle Doe, and there is a window that can only be the one that Erleen Malmirin saw her lover burried over the grave yard wall from and from which she could see the strand and stream from the song, we walked the hall up to the battlement where she threw herself off from, nd it all can still be seen, though the floors are gone, Norman keeps, with their double walls, you can still trace her final path. You can even find traces of Norman plaster, with its triangle pattern. Now, I have to warn all, that the Irish governemnt looks unkindly on climbing on national treasures, and today, years latter, one can likely be arrested for doing so, but if, Like me, you must sing that ballad at the spot it happened, well the risk is up to you. WIth appoligies to the government of Ireland, and Nollag maith agut and happy Saint Stevens day...
Larry Otway

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: Bruce O.
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 04:25 PM

There are lots of Irish tunes from the 18th century and a few of earlier date, but for songs, there don't seem to be any earlier than one printed in 1716 from John Able's singing, and "Aileen Aroon" from Kitty Clive in 1742. There are a few in English from the later 18th century, e.r., "Croppies lie Down".

But few of those known in the 18th century were 'historical', e.g., "The Night Before Larry was stretched", "Oonagh's/Una's Waterfall/Lock", "Black Joke". "Larry Grogan" was a real person, as was "Captain MaGan" so you might call that a historical song (Others for which Carolan composed tunes are noted or given in Donal O'Sulivan's 'Carolan'). See the Irish song section in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website for others, and also see the Irish tune index on my website. I wasn't too careful in noting which tunes were published with the songs to them.
In Nicolas Carolan's notes to the Neals' Collection of Irish tunes, c 1724, Carolan notes what tunes had early songs to them, but most (none?) are not 'historical'.
www.erols.com/olsonw

Subject: RE: Help: Historical songs
From: Mbo
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 04:42 PM

Bruce O, the reason I mentioned those songs is because NSC said we was looking for songs "relating" to the 14th, 15th, and 16th century, and not once that actually date from that time. How about "Piobaireachd (Pibroch) of Donal Dhu." Isn't it supposed to be one of the oldest Scottish tunes, or at least bagpipe tunes? Also "Cainc Ruffydd ab Adda ap Dafydd" is a ancient harp tune from Wales, and was the very first piece of Welsh harp music to be notated.

--Mbo

Subject: Historical Songs
From: ChrisE
Date: 30 Dec 99 - 05:52 AM

Hi there! I need songs that relate to the Irish history, if you know some then please tell me!!! Have a happy Millenium bye ChrisE

Subject: RE: Help: Historical Songs
From: Shimbo Darktree
Date: 30 Dec 99 - 08:59 AM

Using the Digitrad search, I typed Ireland in the first
section, and selected Browse by Keyword in the second section.
Give it a try, and check out the results.

All the best for New Year.

Shimbo.

Subject: RE: Help: Historical Songs
From: John Moulden
Date: 30 Dec 99 - 04:27 PM

Georges-Denis Zimmermann: Songs of Irish Rebellion (Dublin, 1967) & (Philadelphia, 1967) (excellent)

Colm O'Lochlainn: Irish Street Ballads (Dublin, 1939 and other editions) (excellent but historical prespective not always sound)

Michael Mulcahy and Marie Fitzgibbon: The Voice of the People (Songs and History of Ireland) (Dublin, 1982) (useful introduction but highly unreliable as to history and song texts)

John Moulden: Thousands are Sailing - a brief song history of Irish emigration (Portrush, 1994) - for opinion ask Liam's Brother or Martin Ryan or Antaine

There are other possibilities but they'll do for a start.