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Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)

GUEST,Nick Dow 10 Apr 17 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,nickp (cookieless) 10 Apr 17 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 10 Apr 17 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,nickp 10 Apr 17 - 02:48 PM
nickp 10 Apr 17 - 03:29 PM
Joe Offer 10 Apr 17 - 03:59 PM
Joe Offer 10 Apr 17 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 10 Apr 17 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 10 Apr 17 - 06:57 PM
Joe Offer 10 Apr 17 - 07:47 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 10 Apr 17 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,nickp (cookieless again) 11 Apr 17 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Apr 17 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 11 Apr 17 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Apr 17 - 07:02 AM
Mrrzy 11 Apr 17 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Apr 17 - 08:09 AM
Monique 11 Apr 17 - 02:26 PM
Monique 11 Apr 17 - 02:39 PM
Mrrzy 11 Apr 17 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 Apr 17 - 05:58 PM
Monique 12 Apr 17 - 03:30 AM
GUEST,nickp 12 Apr 17 - 04:14 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 12 Apr 17 - 04:36 AM
Monique 12 Apr 17 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 12 Apr 17 - 08:11 AM
Monique 12 Apr 17 - 09:02 AM
GUEST 12 Apr 17 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 12 Apr 17 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 13 Apr 17 - 05:27 PM
Monique 13 Apr 17 - 07:45 PM
Monique 13 Apr 17 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 14 Apr 17 - 05:15 AM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 05:15 AM

Gabriel Yacoub did recite the lyrics for me face to face once, and translate them, however my memory is a bit hazy. Could some kind person find and translate for me. I think I have found an English fragment of the song in the Hammond Mss. and I would like to fill out the missing words from the French version. Don't want much do I?
kind regards to you all
Nick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,nickp (cookieless)
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 08:31 AM

I know it's not much help but the French lyrics are here:

http://www.gabrielyacoub.com/en/disque/titre.php?idTitre=179

pierre de grenoble

quand pierre est parti pour la guerre sept ans y est resté
l'a laissé sa mie à grenoble s'mourant de regrets

la première lettre qu'a reçue pierre l'était pleine de fleurs
la deuxième lettre qu'a reçue pierre l'était pleine de pleurs

s'en fut trouver son capitaine donne-moi mon congé
pour aller voir ma mie à grenoble qui s'meurt de regrets

mais quand il fut sur ses collines l'entendit sonner
a ceux qui la portaient en terre laisse-moi l'embrasser

la première fois que pierre l'embrasse pierre a soupiré
la deuxième fois que pierre l'embrasse pierre a trépassé

qu'en pensez-vous gens de grenoble de cet amour là
se sont couchés l'un contre l'autre ils dorment tous les deux


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 09:23 AM

Brilliant Thanks


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,nickp
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 02:48 PM

If you are desperately stuck I have a friend who may be able to translate.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: nickp
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 03:29 PM

This may help as Gabriel is giving an English resume.

Pierre de Grenoble

with Nikki Matheson on piano at Hazelwood House, Loddiswell, Devon on
17th June 1993

I'll leave the link up for a few days

Nick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 03:59 PM

Here are some interesting performances by Malicorne: Malicorne are Gabriel and Marie Yacoub. Up above, nickp linked to lyrics at the Gabriel Yacoub Website, which says that the song is traditional, arranged by Yacoub and copyright 1973. The Website gives this description of the song:
    chanson à pleurer
    on a scellé la pierre, on a chanté les cantiques rituels, on a brûlé les parfums et les herbes magiques. quand la lune fut pleine, on entendit un chant, beau à rendre fou, le chant de la vie
    figure aussi sur malicorne en public, malicorne, légende 2ème époque
As far as I can see on the Internet, Malicorne is the only source for this song that is mentioned, but Malicorne identifies the song as traditional.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 04:06 PM

My favorite translator is on vacation, so I have to rely on Google translate, which renders Pierre as "stone." Go figure. But hey, at least it gives an idea.


    When stone (Pierre) left for the war seven years there remained
    Has left his crumb to grenoble dying of regrets

    The first letter that received the stone (Pierre) was full of flowers
    The second letter that received the stone (Pierre) was full of tears

    Went to find his captain give me my leave
    To go see my grue in grenoble which is surrounded by regrets

    But when he was on his hills he heard him ring
    To those who carried her in the ground let me kiss her

    The first time stone (Pierre) kisses stone (Pierre) sighed
    The second time stone stone (Pierre) embraces

    What do you think grenoble people of this love there
    Lie down one against the other, they both sleep

No doubt, I'll get a sound scolding for posting a translation like this, but it's a start.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 05:30 PM

Joe re: ...renders Pierre as "stone." Go figure.

Come on Joe, Latin/Greek the Gospels, Simon....Peter???

( But, it is a good start for discussion )

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I believe you may need a spring-break.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 06:57 PM

Many thanks to everyone. I am now adapting the English tune which I suspect is badly remembered by the singer in 1906, keeping the two verses collected and adapting the French words. It may all come to nothing in the end, but I'm hopeful.
The English version (if it is a version at all) is entitled 'I told my love I would list for a soldier' The couple part on bad terms, I will add the verses from 'Pierre' so she changes her mind, he gets leave and comes home and she has died of love. He kisses the ground where she lays and embraces her grave stone, then they lie together to take the long sleep.
Sounds like another cheerful Nick Dow song(no change there then!)
Thank you for your help.
kind regards
Nick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 07:47 PM

Hi, Nick - could you give us more information about what you found in the Hammond Mss.?

And yes, garg, I know full well the relationship between "Pierre" and "stone." But I also know the difference, which makes me feel smugly superior to Google Translate.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 08:24 PM

Yes Roud no 17150 Marina Russell it was 1907 not 1906. (Full English)I will not be offended if you or anybody else thinks my conclusions are wrong. That said the song seems to be working out for me, and there are no other examples to use.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,nickp (cookieless again)
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 04:30 AM

Google: "To go see my grue in grenoble which is surrounded by regrets"

Gabriel's page: "pour aller voir ma mie à grenoble qui s'meurt de regrets"

could that be "amie" (my French is negligible) so something like "to see my love in Grenoble who is dying of regret (sadness)"?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 05:21 AM

Yes just what I thought Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 06:36 AM

'Malicorne are Gabriel and Marie Yacoub'

That statement doesn't really do justice to the original bandmembers, especially Hughes de Courson's contribution to the group was immense.

FWIW, the original Pierre de Grenboble recording was by a group of musicians not gathered under the Malicorne name, although the group eventually emerged from that gathering.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 07:02 AM

Thanks for that Peter. Do you think I am on the right track with my UK song?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 07:18 AM

He doesn't embrace, he passes (dies), at the second kiss.

Mie is the soft and tender inside of crusty French bread, thus a term for sweetie. Pain de mie has no crusty outside.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 08:09 AM

This is brilliant! I envisaged him embracing the tombstone. Many thanks Mrrzy.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Monique
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 02:26 PM

"Ma mie" = my beloved, comes from a miscut of "m'amie" (literally "my friend") but used to mean "my beloved, sweetheart...", in which "ma" was understood as the possessive adjective.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Monique
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 02:39 PM

Here is a more or less literal translation of the whole song.

When Peter left for war, he stayed there seven years.
He left his beloved in Grenoble, dying of regrets (sorrow).

The first letter Peter received was full of flowers,
The second letter Peter received was full of tears.

He went to see his captain "Give me my leave
To go to see my beloved in Grenoble, she's dying of regrets (sorrow)".

But when he reached (lit. "was") on its* hills, he heard [bells] ring
To those who was carrying her to bury her "Let me kiss her".

The first time Peter kissed her, Peter sighed,
The second time Peter kissed her, Peter passed away.

What do you think, people of Grenoble, of this love?
They lied down side by side, the two of them sleep.

*I suppose Grenoble's unless it'd mean the hills on his own land.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 02:52 PM

Ya coulda rhymed Sighed with Died... but then again, I coulda bothered to translate the rest, too.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 05:58 PM

More thanks due! Just to let you know I have adapted the UK tune by keeping the French tune format. I have repeated the first half of the first line on both A and B parts then added a refrain on the last line. It seems to work. The Uk words are in the first person and the French are as above so I will have to work round that for the narrative. Not impossible. I hope it comes to something after all your help. Time will tell.
kind regards
Nick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Monique
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 03:30 AM

4th verse should be:
But when he reached (lit. "was on") its* hills, he heard [bells] ring.
To those who were carrying her to bury her "Let me kiss her".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,nickp
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 04:14 AM

Wow this has been interesting. Thanks all.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 04:36 AM

Agreed!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Monique
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 07:43 AM

There's a Wiki page about it here. The text is from there (Revue des traditions populaires, Paris, Société des traditions populaires, 1897, pages 15-19).
Here are some links to slightly different versions: Chants populaires du pays castrais, A. Combes, 1862, Provençal version: Chants populaires de la Provence, D. Arbaud, 1802, Romania VII, Smith, 1878, Revue des traditions populaires, Volume 9, 1894.


Quand Pierre partit pour l'armée, sept ans demeurer,
A laissé sa mie à Grenoble, qui fait que pleurer.

Pierre a envoyé une lettre, qu'est pleine d'amours ;
La belle a fait une réponse, qu'est pleine de plours.

S'en va trouver son capitaine : "Donnez-moi congé
D'aller voir m'amie à Grenoble qui meurt de regret."

Quand Pierre fut sur la montagne, entendit sonner ;
Pierre a mis le genou en terre, s'est mis à prier.

Quand Pierre fut dedans Grenoble, s'amie a trouvé
Accompagné de trente dames, de vingt cordeliers :

"Vous qui portez ma mie en terre, laissez-moi la voir !"
A découvert son blanc visage, l'a baisé deux fois.

La première fois qu'il la baise, Pierre a soupiré.
La seconde fois qu'il la baise, Pierre a trépassé.

Que diront les gens de Grenoble de ces amoureux ?
Diront : "Ils s'aimaient tant l'un l'autre, sont morts tous les deux."

More or less literal translation (without subtleties and the like)

When Peter left for war, to stay there for seven years,
He left his beloved in Grenoble, she does nothing but weep.

Peter sent a letter that's full of love;
The girl wrote an answer that's full of tears.

He goes to meet his captain, "Give me a leave
To go see my beloved in Grenoble, she's dying of regret (sorrow)".

When Peter was on the mountain, he heard [bells] ring;
Peter put his knee on the ground, he started praying.

When Peter was [with]in Grenoble, he found his beloved
Accompanied by thirty ladies, by twenty Franciscan monks:

"You, who are bringing my beloved to her grave, let me see her!"
He uncovered her white face, he kissed her twice.

The first time he kissed her, Peter sighed,
The second time he kissed her, Peter died. (Thanks, Mrrzy!)

What will the people of Grenoble say about these lovers?
They'll say, "They loved each other so much, the two of them died."

Now you'll notice that the 6th and 7th verses in this version have the kissing moment as "l'a baisé deux fois", "La première fois qu'il la baise…". Nobody would word it like that in this context as the verb "baiser" has been meaning to fuck (lit.) at least since the 1500's-1600's! "Baiser" as a noun still means a kiss.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 08:11 AM

That is the best yet. I did not realise that Pierre sent the first letter! That corresponds exactly with the English version I have found. 'I sent my love a loving letter....' Thanks so much Monique.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Monique
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 09:02 AM

It depends on the versions. On the one at the first link above, there's no letter exchanged, on Yacoub's and the one at the last link above, he receives two letters; on the Romania book he sends one full of love and receives one full of tears, on the Provençal one it's the other way round.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 05:33 PM

Gabriel et Marie Yacoub

FolkTraditionalFrenchMedievalMedieval folk

Gabriel Yacoub was born in Paris, of a Lebanese father and a French mother. He was a guitarist and singer with the Alan Stivell group that toured France in 1971. Before he founded Malicorne Gabriel and Marie Yacoub recorded "Pierre de Grenoble" (1973). This was originally intended to be the name of the group. It included contributions from Dan Ar Braz. With Malicorne Gabriel played acoustic and electric guitar, mandolin, epinette de Vosges and banjo, while Marie played electric dulcimer, bouzouki and hurdy-gurdy.

Source:

www.sonichits.com/artist/Gabriel_et_Marie_Yacoub

A whole pirate's full of booty at the site above.
But, it sounds like all the usual trad "Irish Folk"....AKA boring.

Upon rare occasion, he slips into Arabic tonality (mostly in the intros....if he had continued there was potential for an original cross-over).

Not a great talent - but had potential for genius for "bending notes/tones" and melding culture....

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 06:29 PM

Thanks I already knew a lot of that info. with the exception of the 'boring' reference.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 13 Apr 17 - 05:27 PM

Hi Monique,
If I record this song I would like to credit you with some of the research. Could you let me know your full name on thetraditionbearer@hotmail.co.uk
kind regards
Nick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Monique
Date: 13 Apr 17 - 07:45 PM

Here is some more information/stuff:
Réseau des Archives et Documentation de l'Oralité,
a Gascon version with a Fr. translation and a Piedmontese version. Btw, it's the same theme as Adèle.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: Monique
Date: 13 Apr 17 - 07:58 PM

Manuscript with lyrics and score at the BNF, 1852-1876.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pierre de grenoble (in English Please)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 14 Apr 17 - 05:15 AM

Wonderful! Thank you so much.


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