BS: Choice of education

Subject: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 07:13 AM

It's excellent to note that the first family of folk chose to send their future folk superstar daughter Eliza to Fyling Hall, an independent co-educational day and boarding school rather than the local comprehensive!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 07:41 AM

As they made this decision 30 or more years ago, why bring the subject up now?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 07:48 AM

Because it was noted here

and everybody has to bring up something.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 07:56 AM

Quite easy, the reason for this. Fyling Hall school is a walkable distance from where they live, the nearest other school is about 6 miles away. Bus transport even now is not reliable. Simples.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 07:56 AM

You could just go out in the garden and chew some grass like my cats do when they have something to bring up.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 08:26 AM

hahahaha, Jack

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 09:32 AM

Dunno what kind of area they were living in, but local authorities generally provide school transport where public transport is less than ideal. In extremis, I'd have thought that even a daily six-mile taxi ride would've been cheaper than school fees. But don't listen to me. I'm implacably opposed to the existence of private schools so I suppose I'm a tad biased. I'd far sooner discuss the general issue than focus on the specifics of one familiy's decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 09:50 AM

There are scholarship available still at this school, 30 years ago a school bus did not exist so options would be limited. If the parents are working away, as folk singers are prone to do, it would make sense the use the easier options. It's also known to be a very good school and has been so for decades.

Like you Steve, I disagree with fee paying schools. I also disagree with gratuitous attacks on people

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 09:51 AM

......... unable to defend themselves.

Pressed send too early !!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 10:19 AM

local authorities generally provide school transport where public transport is less than ideal.

They don't necessarily - the criterion woudn't be whether public trasport was "ideal", but rather whether it was absolutely essential and acceptible in theopinion of the authority. There are plenty of cases where pupils have been expected to walk along busy roads, or take a bus that would take them very early to school.

It alwaysstrikes me that decisions about where you send your children to school are personal ones based on what you believe will suit your child best. A fair tax system- which we haven't got - is the way to iron out discrepencies of income, and ensure a level playing field. Different styles of teaching suit different children, it should make no difference to the final outcome whether a particular level of education was reached by a school with a highly structured approach or the reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 12:23 PM

Because it was noted here

That is just an edited copy and paste from Wikipedia - hardly breaking news.

... and, no!; nobody HAS TO bring up anything.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 12:32 PM

The iplayer source is perfectly alright for me I must say! Anyway, I shall enjoy recording this evening's Jools Holland programme from the freely available BBC HLS webstream.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 01:47 PM

Deciding where to send your children has an impact on other children. We've just had a big brouhaha here about how taking your kids on holiday in termtime affects other children in the school. Similarly, keeping your child away from the state sector because you are rich enough to do so impacts the state system in a major way when you multiply your personal decision by the thousands of people who do it. It also impacts your own child by giving him or her a skewed view of what life is really like. My concept of genuine choice is that it should be available to everyone, not just those with big incomes. Scholarships are just a sop. It's a scandal that public school fees should be VAT-free when tampons are not. The removal of charitable status from public schools would be a very good first move, long-overdue.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 02:58 PM

VAT Notice 701/30: education and vocational training may provide clues as to why the VAT status of public school fees cannot easily be changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: ripov
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 03:25 PM

Bonzo - Are you saying that parents shouldn't do the best they can for their kids? Must've been many men pleased to get their son a job down the pit. Or in the steelworks. Or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 08:42 PM

It's the inequality that's the problem. Without that it would just be a matter of what kind of learning environment suited a particular child. And children do vary enormously in that way - for example the expensive private school can be a disastrous environment for many.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 17 - 08:50 PM

Well I think it's a disaster for all of us. An Eton toff has just steered us, totally outside his own control, out of Europe. You will never convince me that it wasn't something to do with his hubristic, public-school lack of connection with the real people of the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:17 AM

Would that be the same "Eton Toff" (Typical envy driven, divisive, "class warrior", leftie activist label, Trotted out by a lazy believer in stereotypes) who called a referendum to honour a long overdue election promise of Gordon Brown's that enabled the electorate of the country to decide on whether, or not, we wanted to remain shackled to an increasingly corrupt and authoritarian failing socialist pipedream?

On the subject of the thread it is a pity your boy Tone didn't honour his manifesto commitment to - "Education, education, education" - what the meddling tossers delivered during their time in office was - "education, edukayshun, edjewkayshun".

Scotland used to have a "comprehensive" system that worked with Certificate and General streams determined by the 11-plus exam (Which was taken as being a start point - NOT a life defining moment)- Everybody went to the same school had the same teachers, same resources and within the subjects taught movement from a General course to a Certificate course was possible and actively encouraged.

My children all went to the extremely good State First School to be then handed on to a Middle School that was absolutely deplorable and the thing that made it so was the Headmaster and his teaching staff according to my wife who was an ex-teacher herself. So we then both took the decision to take our children out of the State system and educate them privately (Here's a laugh for you Shaw - the boys went to a De La Salle College - and benefited by receiving an excellent well rounded education). As a family we made our sacrifices to cover the cost of doing this, but the children definitely benefited from it both mentally and physically, all went on to university and all play numerous sports instead of just watching them, and none of them ever gave either my wife or myself the slightest cause for concern in childhood. They are now all married and settled in their careers with their own families - the education they were given and the environment they grew up in played a big part in that as did having two parents who instilled in them the value and importance of having an education and teaching them that things in life are earned by effort and hard work, they are not just simply given.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:48 AM

Well I think we could do with a few more class warriors, actually. Your anecdotal waffle, which we can't verify of course, based on a single family's experiences, seems to indicate that you yourself didn't benefit much from a good education that would have taught you to ditch ideology and look for, and question, evidence. My word, there's plenty to question in your little life story, but hey, let's not get personal.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:07 AM

Incidentally, Teribus, prove that Cameron didn't call the referendum because he was running scared of UKIP. Making that knobhead sound like an honourable man as you do is akin to knighting the iceberg that sank the Titanic.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:11 AM

Again incidentally, I don't know why you brought up De La Salle. My only link with a school of that name was when we beat the St Helens one at cricket when I was in the Thornleigh First XI.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 07:01 AM

I think parents should have the choice over their children's education. But people on Benefits or rather badly off don't have any choice at all do they?
I got a place at a State Grammar School (I was only ten) and my parents were not at all well-off. My mother went out to work full-time to pay for uniform, sports equipment, school trips etc, and did the same for my younger sister. They made sacrifices. There was a new Comprehensive school in the district, but as our goal was University, it was thought the Grammar School offered a better selection of subjects.
It was suggested by my JUnior School that I sit the Scholarship exam for Benenden (a private girls' boarding school) but my parents felt that as we were working class, I'd have felt out of place there. (Probably very true!)
I don't feel that my State Education lacked anything. I was successful academically and so was my sister. I became a teacher and she became a doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 07:52 AM

If someone's children went to De La Salle I would question if the children were damaged by the experience.

I know numerous people from the De La Salle I attended (note: not Steve Terikins) who have serious psychological issues due to the treatment they received.

I sincerely hope your children managed to get through unscathed, these issues can erupt many years after the event.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 07:55 AM

In college my concentration was music, Psychology and political science.

surprised? I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:58 AM

Is Teribus a northerner? Jesus, I hope not.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 03:11 AM

Unlike you Raggy, my sons along with their friends and classmates seem to have come through it all unscathed.

Of course I'm a "Northerner" Shaw - but then to me - you, Raggy and Gnome are all "Southerners" from that part of the country that seems to revel and take delight in abject misery entirely of your own making.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:03 AM

You don't sound unscathed.

Please tell me that you're not a Lancastrian. My passport is in my hand, ready to be torn up...

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:22 AM

"But people on Benefits or rather badly off don't have any choice at all do they? "
I dip int Tarrant's 'Millionaire' when there's nothing else on television, and am astounded at the constant stream of contestants who wish to win something to pay their or their children's education debts.
The "leftie" dream of free education for all is long gone.
Just before I left school (Secondary Modern), I was late for a maths class because a music teacher had kept kept me behind to explain something I was having problems with
The irate maths teacher asked my "what do you wish to do when you leave, sing in the streets?"
He went on, "all you need to be able to do when you leave here is tot up your wage packet at the end of the week".
It seems we are back to that philosophy again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:43 AM

Good heavens Jim! What terrible things to say to a young pupil!

Our State Grammar School was rather unusual, as the Head was what my father called a 'Red Hot Labour supporter'. The newly-built school (in the late fifties) was a 'Technical Grammar', very advanced for its day. It offered practical subjects (Domestic Science, Woodwork and Metalwork), many modern foreign languages and secretarial skills besides the more classical selection of subjects, and in addition all the Sciences were taught, with excellent laboratories and equipment. It was far from 'posh' and had a very congenial atmosphere. As a working-class child I felt at home there. The staff were well-qualified and delightful. How lucky I was!
A very young Shirley Williams presented us with our 'O' Level certificates.
This is the kind of school which should be available to all, in my opinion.
The uniform was expensive, as was all the sports kit. However, I think a grant was available for very hard-up families.
Our County had no Eleven Plus; pupils were selected on classroom achievement and what I suppose was a kind of Intelligence Test. I was allowed to go a year early, at ten.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:51 AM

A normal person wants to do the best for their children. If they feel private education is the way to go, and can afford the fees then I say good luck to them. Promoting ideology ahead of education is the hallmark of narrow minded, sad bigotry.
The discussion of what is the best system of public education is another matter entirely. Up to the late 60's Grammar schools gave a good education and promoted social mobility. Again the merits or de-merits of the 11+ exam is another issue. The wholesale migration of secondary public education to comprehensive schools has not, in my view, succeeded as well as has been suggested.
I see some here would like to make political capital out of the present education system on offer. Far more important to educate the kids in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:01 AM

It is amazing how people can twist words and meanings Teribus.

If you care to read my post I said I sincerely hoped your children were not damaged by the experience of attending a De La Salle school.

I did not say I was damaged, despite your assumption, but that I knew people who had been.

Quite clear and quite simple, to all but a blustering, arrogant bully such as yourself.

If someone had been damaged I somehow doubt if 1. they would discuss it with you and 2. if you would even recognise it.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:01 AM

"A normal person wants to do the best for their children. "
And a decent person would want the best for all children - not the dog-eat-dog system we have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 05:17 AM

Jim, I agree. It's imperative that all our collective children are educated to as high a standard as possible. It's an investment in the country, and our future lies in their hands.
The words "...and can afford the fees..." are telling. What about those who cannot?
And what about all those potential brains not offered the opportunities that Private Education for the wealthy provides? Such a waste. It should be a completely level playing field. There isn't a better way for any government to invest in the country's future than Education and Equal Opportunities for all students.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 06:20 AM

Unfortunately, Iains, the very existence of private schools, available only to those who can afford the fees, is firmly rooted in the right wing ideology of elitism and privilege. Those schools are afforded tax concessions while state schools are deprived of resources and suffer over-large classes. What we need are state schools that are so good that no-one would be ever want to waste money on a school that provided a totally lopsided social mix of children. Of course, that's one of the main points of their existence. Keep the kids away from the hoi polloi. I got called a class warrior yesterday. Well there's nothing quite like the class warriors who will do anything to maintain that pyramid of privilege. Private schools are at the heart of that. Choice my arse. Ask the millions of parents who live in the deprived inner cities what choice they have. Blinkers off.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 07:40 AM

"It's an investment in the country, and our future lies in their hands."
Absolutely
Elitist education is a total waste of human recourse
You only have to look to out leaders to see how that has served us - a world run by 'Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnsons' - perish the thought (except, of course, that is what we have at present)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 07:46 AM

Would that be the same "Eton Toff" (Typical envy driven, divisive, "class warrior", leftie activist label, Trotted out by a lazy believer in stereotypes) who called a referendum to honour a long overdue election promise ... blah blah"

That's the lad. Same one who fucked a dead pig in the mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:35 AM

Let me explain that last, rather boorish and vulgar reaction to Teribus' comment. For those of us who come for a certain type of background and who didn't have the access to any education beyond our local comprehensive you can be sure we get fed up with our governments consisting of the PPP grads, endlessly privately educated and privileged people seemingly groomed to rule and earnestly believing they have an almost divine right to do so.

Trotting out the tired trope that everyone criticising the Bullingdon club and their wealthy pals is a lefty is way wide of the mark; the fact is many of us went to shit schools where our careers advice was to get a job in a factory in the city. Our aspirations were ignored at best, ridiculed at worst and those of us that didn't fit or had other issues were treated like shit, the lowest of the low.

These people ARE toffs and they ARE lucky to get the education they have and they don't understand the struggles many of have, often for a lifetime, in trying to get the education that all children and adults should have access to regardless of income or postcode.

This isn't being a lefty, it's about building a better world for us all and education is the key to that aspiration. Defending the likes of people like Cameron to trash the education of others is sickening and insulting to so many who deserve and equally excellent education and will never get one.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 17 - 06:06 PM

Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:43 AM

Stu, the person who destroyed the education system in England - Tony Crosland:

"If it's the last thing I do, I'm going to destroy every fucking grammar school in England. And Wales. And Northern Ireland."

In stating that intent he would rob hundreds of thousands of an excellent avenue for upward mobility. Doubt that? Then look at the number of Labour MPs who had had just such an education yet who wished to see it denied others. Scrapping Grammar Schools and reducing to the lowest common denominator does not benefit the country. Talent, intelligence and ability MUST be encouraged, nurtured and fed - you do not do that by slowing the learning process down to the speed at which the less capable feel comfortable.

Tony Crosland on Private education at the time he wanted to "destroy every fucking grammar school in England. And Wales. And Northern Ireland.":

"I am sure that a definite limit exists to the degree of equality which is desirable. We do not want complete equality of incomes, since extra responsibility and exceptional talent require and deserve a differential reward. We are not hostile, as our opponents sometimes foolishly suggest, to 'detached residences in Bournemouth where some elderly woman has obviously more than a thousand a year'. I do not myself want to see all private education disappear; nor the Prime Minister denied an official car, as in one Scandinavian country; nor the Queen riding a bicycle; nor the House of Lords instantly abolished; nor the manufacture of Rolls-Royces banned; nor the Brigade of Guards, nor Oxford and Cambridge, nor Boodle's nor (more doubtfully) the Royal Yacht Squadron, nor even, on a rather lower level, the Milroy Room, lose their present distinctive character; nor anything so dull and colourless as this."

Charles Anthony Raven Crosland educated at one of the "poshest" Grammar Schools in the country and at Trinity College, Oxford (Two whacks at that, first time he read Classics and the second stint after the war reading Philosophy, Politics and Economics. Became an Oxford Don before entering politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:56 AM

Grammar schools promote inequality, end of. In our school we didn't sit the 11 plus and only a select few in the whole year were allowed to try for a scholarship; the rest of us were condemned from that point onwards.

This idea that kids don't feel discriminated against is condescending and a lie. We were well aware that we were considered second class to the folk in the posh schools and pondered this difference. I've no doubt the kids who went to these schools were bright, but the rest of us never got a chance to prove whether we were or not.

By filtering off the brightest children to grammar schools you leave behind those children who would benefit from association with brighter children (as musicians we all know we play 'up' when a skilled player is in the session) and those children who might flower later in school and would otherwise be hampered by being in a school with less vigorous academic standards.

These issues, combined with the ever-rising cost of tuition fees for higher education mean folk are denied a chance to achieve their potential whilst being kids; it's all over for them before they're 11 years old.

Grammars will not stop this happening, only an integrated and progressive education system with resources distributed fairly and facilities for schools raised to a level befitting one of the countries that leads the world in so many disciplines and industries.

The toffs will still go to their elite schools and won't be sullied by association with the great unwashed, but at least the rest of us might stand a chance to get a good education to be able to compete with them and hold our own in the wider world.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:54 AM

What evidence do you have that the introduction of comprehensives has lowered overall standards? Or stifled upward mobility? How come that when I was at grammar school (the only choice for parents of eleven-plus passers at the time being which one) about one in twenty kids went on to university, whereas today it's pushing fifty percent?   Easy to say that the education system was "destroyed." Not so easy to come up with the evidence, though, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 06:22 AM

I don't think there has been much discussion here about class differences and perceptions (ie Snobbery!)

The parents of my 12 yr olds (Middle School) spoke to me about their ideas for secondary schools for their children. Many used phrases such as "In that school the pupils look scruffy, swear and chew gum!" or, "That school has 'naice' students from a 'better class of family'."
Some intended to choose private education, as "They didn't want their children mixing with the dregs of society." I was often hard put to keep my mouth shut. The subjects/courses available seemed less important than the social ethos of a secondary school, and a wish to avoid certain types of people.
In UK, the 'class system' is still alive and well, and judgements are made the moment someone opens their mouth to speak. Accent, clothing, hairstyle, home address, even origins/parents' family are recognised at lightning speed and the person classified. I find this deplorable and while people say it's slowly changing, I still think it currently pertains.
Of course, it happens in reverse. The reason my father rejected the idea of my going as a scholarship boarder to Benenden (Princess Anne was later one of their pupils) was that he could see that my Cockney accent and working-class origins would probably have caused me to be ostracised.
Most of the MPs in Westminster are what my Norfolk friends would call "Roit posh!" and have never mixed with any class below their own. I suspect that some of them view the rest of us with contempt and as inferior. They've been to exclusive, expensive private schools (Eton etc) and probably Oxbridge, where they continue to cultivate their 'we are the Upper Crust' view of themselves.
Until this class system it completely outdated and obsolete, I don't reckon 'equality of opportunity' can ever be achieved, either in education or anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 06:54 AM

I went to a grammar school in Bolton. It had a sixth form, hardly anyone left at the end of the fourth year (at the age of 15), we took O Levels then, two years later if we stayed on, A Levels. Half of those who stayed on went on to university and we had a good handful every year who made it to Oxbridge. The secondary modern schools, attended by more than 80% of pupils (the eleven-plus failures who were CALLED failures), kept you until the age of 15, routinely. They did not offer O Levels. Now this school-apartheid is the golden-age system that the rose-coloured specs brigade love to hark back to. When they talk about upward mobility, they are talking about that chance for one in five and little chance for four in five. In those secondary moderns there were classes variously called "remove" or "remedial." There were no classroom assistants or individual help for children with learning difficulties and the teacher had little option but to impose tedium with a firm hand. Oh yes, it was a great system all right. When it was swept away it was not replaced with a fairer two-tier system, as it was recognised that such a thing wasn't possible. So I want to know from the grammar school advocates how they know that comprehensive education was such a disaster compared to what we had before. The answer? They don't, because standards actually rose across the board. Go on, look it up. There's been plenty of meddling and underfunding and reorganising and the imposition of repressive bureaucracy on state schools, but, in spite of that, they generally do a pretty good job. Hard to measure standards, of course (and you can't do it easily by looking at exam results - I was an A Level examiner for 12 years and an assistant chief examiner for three, and I saw the exam transformed into a very can-do experience over that time), but start by looking at the explosion in numbers of students now in higher education.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 07:42 AM

I'm not advocating grammar schools per se, only saying that the excellent standard of education I was lucky enough to be able to access in mine should be available to all.

In my day, the very new Comprehensive nearby (one of the first in our area) was 'not bad' but there was still, as you say Steve, the concept of 'failures' applied to its pupils, in the same way that the Secondary Modern in our area was looked upon. Some students were transferred to our grammar school from the other two, if it was felt they'd been wrongly selected as 'failures'. But mostly we were, I'm sure, regarded as academically elite, which is quite wrong.

Our local secondary Comprehensive here in Norfolk is now an 'Academy', and from what I can gather is absolutely excellent. Its intake is unselected, courses are fluidly accessible and all abilities catered for. I don't know the proportion of University places taken up, but there is a sixth-form college attached to the school, all beautifully equipped, and the whole establishment is well-managed by the Headmaster.
If all secondary education could be like this (which I bet it's not in other places, from what one sees and hears, sadly) I would feel things were pretty fair and equal. But it could never compete with the Eton/Oxbridge wealthy upper class lot, who end up in top positions, and effectively comprise 'The Ruling Class'. It's a social matter as well as an educational one.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 07:45 AM

To all our supposed educationalists - if you want a "comprehensive" system that works.

First take a look at the system you have, study it and find the bits of it that work - that then becomes the model that the bits that don't have to aspire to and be brought up to. That means weeding out poor teachers and replacing them where necessary

Second accept the FACT that life is and people are NOT EQUAL - THEY NEVER HAVE BEEN. People can be given equal opportunity it is then up to them what they wish to do with it.

"Grammar schools promote inequality, end of." All you've missed out there Stu is the Innit? at the end. If you want to encourage excellence, if you want to be at the forefront of technological innovation then you have to identify talent and ability as early as possible then push, encourage and reward them as rapidly as possible.

"the rest of us were condemned from that point onwards." Another bullshit whine and a complete and utter myth - The number of people who succeeded in life who went to Secondary Modern schools is astounding - people do vary enormously, they mature and come into their own at varying times in their lives - the only person who could possibly have condemned you from that point onwards you whining mug would be yourself!

"This idea that kids don't feel discriminated against is condescending and a lie. We were well aware that we were considered second class to the folk in the posh schools and pondered this difference. I've no doubt the kids who went to these schools were bright, but the rest of us never got a chance to prove whether we were or not."

More bullshit - ever heard of Night School? Student Release schemes? Student Apprenticeships? Again I now many who took advantage of these schemes to improve their education and career prospects and job opportunities. Later came the Open University and both employers and trades unions sponsored university places.

Another idiotic belief is that everybody has to go to University. WTF for? Most go to study bullshit degrees that lead nowhere and have no purpose - waste of time and resources.

"By filtering off the brightest children to grammar schools you leave behind those children who would benefit from association with brighter children (as musicians we all know we play 'up' when a skilled player is in the session) and those children who might flower later in school and would otherwise be hampered by being in a school with less vigorous academic standards."

No by filtering off the brightest you keep them interested and engaged. Hold them back and they end up bored and disinterested, they then become disruptive. Your lesser able pupils can also be disruptive through frustration if they are failing to pick things up. All that happens when your quoted suggestion is adopted is a standard dumbing down process across the entire system.

Not really sure how you counter exceptionally poor advice from one's parents, but I see that what you have inherited are the self same chips they carried perfectly balanced on each of their shoulders and their stereotypical myths.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:07 AM

Plenty of bullshit philistinism there, Teribus. Tell us more about bullshit degrees why don't you. Which ones? Do you know enough about the differentiation that is required in schools to ensure that all pupils are pushed to the best of their abilities? Doesn't sound like it. Hold bright pupils back and you are instantly shat upon by Ofsted. As for weeding out teachers, I wondered when that was going to come up. In my grammar school we had a general science teacher for three years who sat at the front every lesson while we copied chapters out of a book. He never took us into a lab, not once. My chemistry teacher did nothing except stand at the front dictating notes to us. My English Lit teacher's idea of teaching us Kipps by HG Wells was to read it to us. His idea of teaching us Wordsworth was to force us to learn vast tracts of mind-numbing text under threat of punishment. He called everyone flower or blossom, never by their names. My geography teacher made us copy maps for the whole lesson and expected us to churn them out the next day from memory. The music teacher thought he was Beethoven and he had a temper to match. A classroom terrorist. Another aficionado of vast tracts of copying. Some of my university teachers were even worse, and feedback in lectures was never permitted. A few poor teachers get through the net, admittedly, but the general standard of what is expected of teachers today has never been higher. Most of them these days deserve medals.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:34 AM

"First take a look at the system you have, study it and find the bits of it that work"

My niece and nephew attend an excellent comprehensive which recognises and nurtures the talent of all it's pupils, and many parents choose to send their kids there rather than the posh private place up the road. This really is a good school, it's inclusive, the staff listen to the kids and they are encouraged to pursue their interests and chose careers. One of my friends left there and went on to study medicine and become a doctor. So comprehensive education DOES work. Oh, but the bastard tories have just cut the school's budget by £150,000 a year so as actions speak louder than words, best ignore their bullshit.


"...the only person who could possibly have condemned you from that point onwards you whining mug would be yourself"

Nice. I understand you lack any empathy or compassion Mr T, but not everyone has your boundless self-regard and confidence in their own infallibility. Some folk need to be nurtured not bullied, ignored or ridiculed. It's horrible when it's happening to you and those around you.

I've pursued my own education at my own expense to the point where up to last year I was doing a PhD (before my supervisor was sacked and no replacement found; I had just finished gathering the bulk of my data too) and will continue to do so. I've got three CSEs and a couple of art qualifications so this hasn't been easy (wonderful in many ways though) but I have NEVER given up or accepted the condemnation that I and others were subjected to in school.


"Again I now many who took advantage of these schemes to improve their education and career prospects and job opportunities"

You know one more now then, don't you love?


"Most go to study bullshit degrees that lead nowhere and have no purpose - waste of time and resources."

Inverted snobbery. Lovely. Who are you to judge? Higher education teaches a person many skills apart from expertise in the subject matter under study, as any fule know. Well, not ANY fule obviously.


"but I see that what you have inherited are the self same chips they carried perfectly balanced on each of their shoulders"

As that is utterly unknowable to you, this comment is intended to insult and enrage rather than discuss. What makes you so nasty sometimes?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:50 PM

T-Bird sounds very much like Betsy DeVos. Are they related, do you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 02:39 AM

OK Stu, thanks for the additional information. So from your post that prompted mine, we now see that the following is complete and utter bullshit:

1: "the rest of us were condemned from that point onwards."

2: "the rest of us never got a chance to prove whether we were or not."

3: "folk are denied a chance to achieve their potential whilst being kids; it's all over for them before they're 11 years old."

You yourself have proved that none of the above is actually true, but there again you have omitted to tell us all that you yourself started the process. You provided the motivation.

"Bullshit Degrees" - Degree courses that offer no real worth either to society in general or to the person who holds them. The advantage that people have who have approached higher education once they have started working tend to do so with them having a much more focused aim than someone who has never worked just leaving school, what they intend to do is normally linked to a specific work or career move.

As to how good our education system is today Shaw? Having experienced much the same as yourself at school, back in those days there were no widespread complaints by universities and prospective employers of children coming out of basic education who cannot read, cannot write, cannot communicate and who are on top of that lot innumerate. One thing that teachers are faced with today, that they weren't faced with when I was at school - they did not have to teach their subjects to children whose second language was English.

The reality is that life is not fair and people are not equal, we are all individuals with varying skills and talents, some more marketable than others - one size does not fit all and it never will.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 03:35 AM

And there you have it ..........the "wisdom" of an uneducated oaf.

No knowledge or understanding of education and a touch of racism to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:10 AM

"The reality is that life is not fair and people are not equal, "
No
The reality is that that is written into the system we live under and while people like you are around, that will never change
The underlying an open arrogance in virtually everything you post only serves to act as an illustration of that fact
If you had actually achieved anything with your own life and had any talents or achievements worth boasting about, I have little doubt you would have trumpeted them from the rooftops before now
As you haven't you are apparently no more than a cap-doffer to your "betters" m'lud (exits right)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:32 AM

'...life is not fair and people are not equal...'

People may differ, but are equal in value and should have equal opportunities and rights.

Life not being fair is generally due to the indifference and arrogance of the privileged elite towards the disadvantaged.

I have taught many pupils who had very little English at first. Most of them proved to be extremely attentive, hard-working and quick to learn. They valued the education they were given, and profited by it enormously. They were never a problem to me as their teacher. I enjoyed finding materials and strategies to help them learn English.

Where I lived as a child in West London there were huge numbers of Pakistani folk, and their children came to school with us all. So it's not a new thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 05:45 AM

I asked you to tell me which degrees are the bullshit ones but you've evaded the question. Please also let me have your solution to the issue of teaching children whose first language is other than English. And, since time immemorial, universities and prospective employers have moaned and groaned about the standards of literacy and numeracy of children not only coming from "basic education" but also from sixth forms and even, in the case of some employers, from universities. 'Twas ever thus, and, once again, you appear to be harking back to a golden age when such complaints weren't made. If you have a point to make about what you perceive to be falling levels of literacy and numeracy, I suggest you resort to solid facts and figures, not to Daily Mail-tinged vague whinings from "it was never like this in my day" Mike Ashley types who haven't a clue what they're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 09:56 AM

I take it that your last was aimed at me Raggy. What does it feel like to have been constantly hammered in discussion by, as you put it - "an uneducated oaf." with "No knowledge or understanding of education"

"An uneducated oaf.", who on the subject of WWI you said this of:

"You are obviously interested in the subject and far more knowledgeable than some others on this forum."

As someone who openly boasts of their total irresponsibility, you are the last person I would take any notice of on any subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:27 AM

I still think my statement was correct, you do know more about WW1 than SOME on this forum.

The fact you are also blinkered, arrogant, blustering and a bully makes you an oaf.

The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf.

Simples.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:54 AM

People may differ, but are equal in value and should have equal opportunities and rights.

Very true people are different and generally they do have equal opportunities and rights. Take myself and Kevin Keegan for example I had equal opportunities and rights to become a professional footballer. Only thing was you see Senoufou Kev and I were different - he had the talent and interest required I did not. I could apply the same differential to create a massive list where I had equal opportunity and equal rights but lacked the skill, application and dedication to carry it through. What I did end up doing, I did well and was suitably financially rewarded for doing something that had immense job satisfaction, but not everyone could have done it (7 out of 10 fail at the first hurdle - but all had the exact same opportunity and right to try)

"Life not being fair is generally due to the indifference and arrogance of the privileged elite towards the disadvantaged."

That inherited chip on your shoulder is showing again. Life is not fair Senoufou purely through circumstance - nothing whatsoever to do with "indifference", "arrogance" or any "privileged elite". No-one but no-one had humbler or a more disadvantaged childhood and upbringing than Andrew Carnegie. In personal endeavour and success he outshone any "privileged elite" in the USA and he started with NOTHING. Another Scot who did the same in an entirely different field was Robert Burns. There are far, far too many examples of people making a success of their lives from humble and disadvantaged beginnings for your case to hold water, but the message must be that the individual has to work for it - no-one is ever going to hand it to you on a platter.

I have taught many pupils who had very little English at first. Most of them proved to be extremely attentive, hard-working and quick to learn. They valued the education they were given, and profited by it enormously. They were never a problem to me as their teacher. I enjoyed finding materials and strategies to help them learn English.

Demonstrates the point I was making admirably - how much further would your pupils have got had you not first had to overcome their lack of English? They also probably were encouraged by their parents and it is no doubt from them that they were taught their respect for education and how vitally important it was for them. While you were enjoying finding materials and strategies to help them learn English, what were the pupils in your class who already had a good command of the English language doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:00 AM

"The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf." - Raggy

OK then Raggy tell us what the FACTS are in relation to my education.

To my certain knowledge they will prove to be incorrect assumptions on your part - not facts at all - and you have got the brass-neck to witter on about "blinkered, arrogant, blustering"!!!

What odds Raggy comes back with S.F.A.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:08 AM

Rubbisth, T - total rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:09 AM

oh go on then ............ just for you ...... sweet Fanny Adams


Now, go on terikins, tell us all about your higher education.


What odds that terikins comes back with S.F.A

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:19 AM

The Victorians imposed arbitrary school subject boundaries and they've stuck largely because universities have dictated from above what they expect schools to churn out. There's a lot more to a well-rounded education than simply a thorough grounding in a "subject." Any subject taken at school or university, given good teaching, will equip students with study skills (i.e., acquiring a lust for knowledge, knowing how to gather, evaluate and interpret information and developing critical thinking) that will serve well across artificial subject lines. Over and above that, we need specialisms, hopefully achieved by getting students enthusiastic about particular fields of endeavour.

When I took Latin at school I thought it was a bullshit subject. Not so. It was the savour in my schooling right up to the time I finished teacher training. Have I "used" Latin? Of course I have. I "use" it all the time. It informs the way I write and understand my own language for a start (helps with those pesky plant names too). I spent weeks doing a palaeobotany course. We studied pollen deposits right from the end of the last glaciation in order to glean the flora of the time and we collected Jurassic fossil gymnosperms, horsetails and ginkgos from the cliffs between Scarborough and Whitby. Have I used that? Well I don't talk about it much, but at the time it fired my imagination for many other aspects of biological science. We did have an amazing teacher. I spent a week studying red campion variability at Malham Tarn. I was never going to turn the deserts green doing that but the real science in that study was incalculable. A woman who was in my university class in 1969 still works at Malham Tarn Field Centre, running courses on various environmental matters. There are no bullshit subjects and no bullshit degrees. There's good education, which means using your skills to go out and grab knowledge for yourself rather than sit there waiting for someone to pour it over you, like that chemistry "teacher" I mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:29 AM

Ehmmm you did write this didn't you Raggy - "The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf."

You referred to "The fact" - so it is up to you to tell us what "The facts" are with regard to my education.

Just dying to see how much of this that you get wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:36 AM

Evasion as I expected

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 12:47 PM

"Very true people are different and generally they do have equal opportunities and rights. "
Absolute nonsense
A decent education depends entirely on where you live, what kind of schools are in the locality, the financial situation of those schools and - as far as further education is concerned - your family's income.
What world are you living in?
The introduction of University fees has put higher education out of reach of most working families
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 03:21 PM

I wasn't aware that I had an 'inherited chip on my shoulder' Teribus.

I was perfectly capable as a teacher of ensuring that all the pupils in my class were profiting from their lessons. In any class, there is always a selection of different abilities, behaviours, language competence, special needs and so on. I loved all these challenges and I don't think any individuals suffered from my spending time with the ESL students, or with any other group. Believe me, all my pupils were kept hard at it with meaningful work!

I do see your point about it being the students' responsibility to take full advantage of the educational opportunities on offer. But you can't deny that there is a huge difference in standards and a disparity between schools. And one can actually buy a better education for your children if you have the money. That just isn't fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:31 PM

What evasion Raggy?

You stated facts and you were asked to produce them - now what are they? Or don't you know? If that is the case then you coming out with the following - "The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf." - making statements of such astounding certainty and wittering on about things that you have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever, makes you out to be the biggest prat in creation.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:37 PM

Your shoulders sound fine Senofou. A teacher Teribus may have been referring to, could have been a screamer from his past.
My youngest is in a special program to help him find his identity and confidence that includes professionals dedicated to individual support. We are hoping this opportunity proves beneficial.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 01:47 AM

"My youngest is in a special program to help him ......"

Different thing entirely Donuel - please accept my sincere hopes and wishes that that programme is beneficial to him.

"Life not being fair is generally due to the indifference and arrogance of the privileged elite towards the disadvantaged." - Senoufou

Is a typical UK "socialist" whining myth - for them anything wrong in their lives always has to be someone else's fault. As stated in my previous post - There are far, far too many examples of people making a success of their lives from humble and disadvantaged beginnings for your case to hold water, but the message must be that the individual has to work for it - no-one is ever going to hand it to you on a platter.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 03:10 AM

Yet more evasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 03:20 AM

But Teribus, the rich and privileged HAVE been handed stuff on a platter haven't they? I agree one has to work for one's success, but things are made much more difficult (and require far more input and determination) if one is starting from relative poverty and deprivation.

I am not 'typical' particularly. (In fact, I'd say I was quite unusual in several ways!) I'm not actually a Socialist, I vote Conservative. And I hope I don't 'whine'.

I wonder if you have ever met young people from very poor districts, with bad housing and with parent/s on an extremely low income or Benefits? Can you imagine being talented or gifted, with a high intelligence, trying to study in such an environment?
My father did so, and it was admirable. But he was exceptionally determined and ferociously strong-minded. Most youngsters would bow to the ethos of their home and district. They're not all Billy Elliots!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 03:52 AM

Awwwww c'mon Raggy, why not share "your facts" with us?

Good reason he doesn't folks - they don't exist. Raggy assumed and presented his assumptions as fact. Once more Raggy opens his mouth and shoves both feet in - talking and making statements from a standpoint of pure ignorance - 100% "Made-Up-Shit".

"The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf."

Your words NUMBNUTS - now back 'em up - WHAT FACT? (Bet he ducks it again)

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:04 AM

Bet you don't enlighten us as to your vast all conquering educational achievements.

Just keep arguing petty semantics terikins, don't worry though, we know you for what you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:27 AM

Education in Britain at present makes the title of this thread a misnomer - there is no choice
One of the missing ingredients is incentive - education for what - the stacking of shelves in Sainsburys people are now forced into because there is nothing else?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:29 AM

Speaking of ducking, Teribus, I'm still waiting for your list of bullshit degrees.

I'm surprised, Senoufou. I can't recall your ever making a Tory-sounding comment! Voting other than Tory doesn't necessarily make you a socialist, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:40 AM

"the rich and privileged HAVE been handed stuff on a platter haven't they?"

WHAT have they been handed on a platter?

WHO is it you define as being "the rich and privelged"? If you are talking of the "aristocracy" Senoufou I think that the fact of the matter is that they are a dying breed and have been for some considerable time now

The Rich - well let me see now Victoria and David Beckham are undoubtedly rich - So please Senoufou tell us all what they as individuals were handed on a platter. My understanding is that they both individually worked extremely hard to get to where they are today, and they continue to do so.

The list of the 10 richest people in the UK contains only two people who inherited their wealth and because of that they have never had to "work" so have never robbed anybody of any opportunity, the remaining eight have all been "self-made-men" (Some of remarkably little education Raggy) who were successful entirely through their own efforts - who were handed nothing on a platter.

"I wonder if you have ever met young people from very poor districts, with bad housing and with parent/s on an extremely low income or Benefits? Can you imagine being talented or gifted, with a high intelligence, trying to study in such an environment?"

Grew up with them, went to school with them, worked with them. Generally we all had two parents, and they instilled in us the importance, value and worth of a good education - we experienced no particular hardship in studying, apart, in my case, from my younger sister incessantly playing Beatles records that affected me in as much as I grew to absolutely detest and hate them but yet by some process of osmosis I am still word perfect in most of them. Pity you heeded your father's take on Benenden - he was wrong - when once in a lifetime opportunities arise they should be seen for what they are and should be taken. You would have thrived there and thoroughly enjoyed yourself - if not you could have gone home - nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 05:26 AM

O teribe (please note the Latin vocative case), I'm not even going to respond to your tirade. We each have our opinions, and that's quite all right.

Haha Steve, yes, I'm a closet Conservative! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 07:52 AM

"Victoria and David Beckham"
Are unlikely to ever be running the country - that's not to say they wouldn't make a beter job of it though !!
"WHAT have they been handed on a platter?"
The privileges that society awards the wealthy on the basis that they have more of I right to them than those who actually do the work
As dodgy an your unqualified claims are on inherited wealth, it is only a side-issue anyway
The real point is that rights like health, security and position are bought and exclude those who are not wealthy.
The fact that someone can buy themselves to the top of the tree doesn't mean they are fittest for the position in society they purchase - the world is learning that at present by hoping with the most dangerous world leader ever to occupy that position.
Is there a difference between spending your youth listening to Beatles records and getting pissed up and throwing your knickers in the air at Debs coming out parties ?
The outcome is VERY DIFFERENT for those involved
THE GREAT AND THE GOOD
Your cap-doffing becomes more and more entertaining
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 08:15 AM

You'd win your bet Raggy, but then I am not the complete and utter stranger claiming to know for a fact what education anybody had - That you eejit is you.

So what facts about me do you know Raggy, I am dying to hear (By the way if you are relying on anything said by your pal Jom - you will be well off the mark).

What tirade Senoufou?? You are the one making broadbrush general statements to support typically left-wing stereotypes that have little or no bearing on what is being discussed. The fact that you appear unable to argue your case when challenged has got nothing to do with me. As "Teribus" has no connection whatsoever to Latin I fail to see the point in noting the Latin vocative case of the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 08:24 AM

Typical response from Mr Angry.

Senoufou is possibly the most gentle person on this site, judging by her posts, but even that doesn't stop the hectoring, blustering bully having a go at her.

Appalling behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 09:48 AM

What's up Raggy still cannot quite steel yourself to having to openly admit that you have got no idea whatsoever as to where I was educated or the level to which I was educated, which of course would make your "fact" nothing of the sort.

Who by the way is "having at go at" who?

Mind you it would appear that your sort of discussion revolves around you making a whole load of shit up, no matter how outrageous, and then have all your gormless pals agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 09:52 AM

"What tirade Senoufou?? You are the one making broadbrush general statements to support typically left-wing stereotypes that have little or no bearing on what is being discussed. The fact that you appear unable to argue your case when challenged has got nothing to do with me. As "Teribus" has no connection whatsoever to Latin I fail to see the point in noting the Latin vocative case of the word"
(Teribus 22.04.17 08.15 AM)

I suppose I must have made up this outrageous shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 01:23 PM

As yiu're hectoring Raggytash about the nature of your educational qualifications, allow me to re-hector you. The list of bullshit degrees, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 04:24 AM

A list of "bullshit Degrees" that have no useful or practical application - if you don't mind Shaw.

Tirade Shaggy? I was responding to Senoufou's accusation - surely I am allowed to do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 04:40 AM

It was senofou herself who described your words as a tirade not I.

I agree with her that your reaction was way over the top, but then again I'm used to your bullying, hectoring style, it doesn't bother me one iota, but a little decorum may be in order with other posters.


Ever thought of taking an Anger Management course.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:00 AM

So which are the bullshit ones? Do you perhaps believe in training only and not in education? How evasive can you get!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:08 AM

Why I'm asking - a reminder:

"Another idiotic belief is that everybody has to go to University. WTF for? Most go to study bullshit degrees that lead nowhere and have no purpose - waste of time and resources." (Teribus, 20 April)

All I want to know is which degrees are the bullshit ones!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:11 AM

"surely I am allowed to do that?"
Perhaps if you didn't abuse people and try to talk down to them you might have something to say
You hector everybody and we all know what happened to him - he got dragged by his heels behind a chariot (get sombody to look it up for you)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:42 AM

Don't get him going on Hector, Jim, or else we'll be getting a two-year spat about who was well-led in the Boer Wars...

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 07:10 AM

The child of a friend got a phd in history three years ago. The best work he's been able to find so far is driving a forklift in a grocery store warehouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 07:56 AM

But he's contributed well to the sum total of human wisdom, and the study and research skills he's acquired will influence him, and the people close to him, to the good for the rest of their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:11 AM

"The best work he's been able to find so far is driving a forklift in a grocery store warehouse."

What's wrong with that job?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:21 AM

I left grammar school in 1964 with just 5 O Levels, because I failed all my A levels. I preferred playing guitar in my band which was infinitely more fun than studying. However, I did eventually pass Institute of Chartered Accountants' part 1 Final exams but became time barred before retaking part 2 for the 3rd time I think it was - so that gives me roughly 8 A* passes at A level by 2017 standards!!

I have been out of work for no more than 3 weeks in total since September 1964!
University is a complete waste of time for the majority of wasters there.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:26 AM

A degree course in "Urban Dancing"

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:43 AM

So degrees in performing arts are useless, are they? All of them? What about degrees at the Royal College of Music?

What about degrees in history? Archaeology? Religious studies? English literature? Politics? Should we allow only degrees that industrialists have decided are "useful?"

Philistine!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:59 AM

"What's wrong with that job?"
Lousy pay, crap job, undemanding and not how most people would choose to spend their day, especially if they had a trade they could no longer find work in.
As a skilled electrician with fifty 45 years experience, I'd be pissed pissed off if I was told I would have my benefits withdrawn if I didn't take it - and I certainly couldn't support a family on the wages it would bring in.
Wonder how you would feel as a trained scientist!!
Apart from that, nothing much
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 09:39 AM

I'm very glad I took up accountancy, so never been on the benefits scrounge!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 09:44 AM

I am surprised that someone who maintains he has been involved in folk music for many years should choose a degree that includes performing as one that is useless.

In taking such a degree the student will learn not only performing of various types of dance, but research, choreography, studio skills and events management.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 09:47 AM

Well bully for you Bongo. Well done, hurray, take a gold star and give out the inkwells.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 10:03 AM

What's wrong with that job?

Twenty years of schoolin'
And they put you on the day shift

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 10:48 AM

I will raggetytashety!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 10:52 AM

Sorry Shaggy but your pal Shaw asked me for an example of a "Bullshit Degree" course that was of neither use nor ornament - I think a Degree in Urban Dancing fits the bill fairly well.

The Urban Dictionary has two definitions for the term Urban Dancing:

1: "to move with unhindered grace around an area with the presence of another enjoying the same activity."

2: "Humping someone in public"

Now you tell me of what benefit a degree in such a subject would be and whether, or not, the holder of such a degree would ever recoup the investment made in obtaining it - As a practitioner of 1, I'd say with difficulty, applying the knowledge obtained studying 2, you'd probably be debt free inside of six months.

People were conned into believing that a university degree - ANY university degree would increase your earning potential - IT DOESN'T, but hundreds of thousands swallowed the lie and have ended up in debt because of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 12:37 PM

Your comment merely serves to demonstrate how little you know or understand about higher education.

No surprise at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 12:41 PM

Have a look at the UEL (University of East London) syllabus of Urban Dance. It's brilliant. And the last section outlines possible career choices, of which there are many. They mention several of their graduates' successes in the world of dance.
To be honest, I would have loved such a study opportunity (I adore dance) and this course is now extremely popular.

My degree is a Master of Arts in French Language and English Literature, with Linguistics and Phonetics thrown in. I became a Primary School teacher, and this was in no way related to my degree, but was always what I wanted to do (that or nursing!)

One shouldn't bar students from access to any kind of education or study merely because they won't get a job at the end of it. Knowledge isn't a dog biscuit for which one has to jump obligingly to receive.

Teribus, I know your username is derived from 'Teribus ye teri Odin', which was the battlecry of the men of Hawick at Flodden. I apologise for my lighthearted attempt at humour in treating it as a Latin word. I expect I was just showing off (a tendency in me my sister has often tried to quash!) I'm sorry if it offended you.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 01:09 PM

On the contrary Senofou, if anyone should apologise it should be the unmitigated, aggressive, hectoring Terikins.

FULL STOP

I doubt he will, he perceives such as a sign of weakness.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 01:56 PM

"Knowledge isn't a dog biscuit for which one has to jump obligingly to receive" - both my wife & I think that's a wonderful saying, definitely filed away for use at the right time!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 02:15 PM

Ha Bonzo, has your wife managed to get those ...er...knickers off yet?
(For those puzzled by this remark, please see the leg ulcers thread!)

Hope she's getting along well and the ulcers are healing nicely.
My mother had a leg ulcer, and it was actually quite painful. She was given some special powder to dry it up (no idea what it was) and luckily it soon healed.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 02:24 PM

I didn't ask you for "an example." I asked you for a list. You said that "most study bullshit degrees." Well urban dance might just account for a very few hundred at most, if that, out of an annual student intake of half a million per annum. My maths isn't what it used to be, but that isn't "most."

Are you floundering??

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 07:02 AM

"I'm very glad I took up accountancy, so never been on the benefits scrounge!"

Don't judge others as you judge yourself. Not everyone is on the scrounge, some folk fall on hard times through no fault of their own.



"Now you tell me of what benefit a degree in such a subject would be and whether, or not, the holder of such a degree would ever recoup the investment made in obtaining it"

I suspect you might struggle to understand an answer to this, but I'll try. Higher education is about far more than the subject that you are studying. You learn a huge number of skills that otherwise you might not ever be able to, and through the process of learning and research you challenge your own opinions and change the way you view the world.

When I did my first undergrad course in geology (in my 30's), it changed the way I looked at the world, literally. A car journey became more than getting from A to B, but became a journey through time, biology, topography and the processes that create the landscape and influences what lives in it, from a blade of grass to a city.

You might not see the relevance of a degree in Urban Dance, but this is due to your ignorance of the subject and what motivates people to study it, and your ignorance doesn't render it less relevant to our society. Recuperating the cost of the degree shouldn't be an issue for the student, by having people educated to a high standard our economy is stronger and we can lead the world in science and culture. That's all the reason anyone needs, and to make the students pay for it is idiotic, counter-productive and ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 08:15 AM

"Don't judge others as you judge yourself. Not everyone is on the scrounge, some folk fall on hard times through no fault of their own."

As I did on each of the 3 times I was made reduntant - each time I sent out 500 + letters - remember them?? I found work by my own effort, but then I have long experience rather than some utterly useless degree and no experience!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 08:39 AM

Envy is such an ugly trait.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 09:30 AM

Ideally, education should go far beyond training for work
Pope had it just about right when he wrote:
"'Tis education forms the common mind; just as the twig is bent the tree's inclined."
I remember envying my 9-year younger sisters when they attended the local Comprehensive school - far more wide-reaching than my own Secondary Modern drilling.
I can't pronounce with any authority nowadays, but I'm left with the distinct impression that all that is a thing of the past for most kids today.
The internet seems to have helped create the strange contradiction of access to vastly far more information but far less incentive to use it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 09:36 AM

That's just you getting old Jim :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: saulgoldie
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 11:08 AM

Apologies for coming in to this thread later; 'puter has been acting up, yada, yada, yada. (And also, in my scanning, I have seen quite a bit of the "heat" of name-calling" rather than the "light" of intelligent discourse.) But...

Here in the states, "choice" is the "spin" reference to "getting the public subsidize (mostly white) families for sending their children to private religious schools where, most likely, 'creationism' and other 'subjects' are taught and allows these families to leave the 'more difficult' students to the public schools who have to take all comers, thereby allowing public officials to try to further defund public schools because they now have fewer students who cost more per student than they used to."

So, yeah, "freedom to choose," that wonderfully false and deceptive "free market" goto notion that really isn't.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 12:34 PM

Spot on Saul. Here we cut funding for state comprehensive schools, set up ideologically-conceived "free schools" that don't have to follow any of the rules, get all enthusiastic about setting up selective grammar schools for the brightest elite and allow fee-paying schools charitable status.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 02:26 PM

Jim
"The internet seems to have helped create the strange contradiction of access to vastly far more information but far less incentive to use it."

That is a bit of a broad brush statement. It leaves out the vital component of any person's education, namely motivation. Sufficient motivation can overcome many educational disadvantages. This is not ideal obviously, but if all had the same opportunities there would still be winners and losers. Some thrive in an educational environment some detest it. Our present system(UK) provides elitist secondary education in the private sector, underfunding in the public sector and very little to help those not academically inclined. Is funding the real problem though? The secondary school I attended had one extension built in 60 years. The swimming pool was still suffering bomb damage from ww2 in the mid sixties. The main school was a victorian gothic monstrosity. Investment in facilities and equipment was minimal yet exam results were entirely reasonable. Also I can remember no school inspections and behaviour in the classroom was exemplary. To answer back was simply not done as the outcome of such a deed would be too painful. Could it be that in the 50's and 60's most male teachers of an age had been in the military and expected discipline. Today there is far more money, lax discipline and pass rates for a levels and degrees are ever higher and grades reach the stratosphere. Are teachers getting better, kids more intelligent, or are standards slipping?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 02:35 PM

"but then I have long experience rather than some utterly useless degree and no experience!!!!!"

True, but your ability to source, sort and interpret interpretation is primary level at best and this leaves you sounding like a ranting old man falling back on old Daily Mail bile-filled tropes rather than fact. Shame you missed out on the degree, you might have been a fine debater.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 02:42 PM

"source, sort and interpret interpretation is primary level at best"

I'm so sorry but I choose to spend my time on infinitely less anorakic activities - if it's all the same to you!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 02:57 PM

Nowt to do with me sir! I'm used to inverted snobbery.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 03:19 PM

"That is a bit of a broad brush statement. It leaves out the vital component of any person's education, namely motivation"
That is my point Iains
Education has retreated to a position of training for looking for (largely non-existent) jobs, much as it was around the time I was leaving school
Nearly ten years later, when my youngest sisters were at school, the comprehensive system had broadened education to encompass the arts,certainly far more than it did in my experience.
Now it seems to have gone back to its old ways.
Discipline is immaterial really- all part of the 'teaching by ote' method.
Teachers are getting better - or certainly more dedicated in a broader sense - I know many of them though my involvement in music, but talking to them and reading threads about 'despairing teachers leaving' give the impression of an uphill battle.
The various attempts to curb teachers down the years really haven't helped.
I went to a secondary mod school that thought it was a grammer school due to the make up of its pupils - part failed middleish class from Speke village and the vast bulk from the overspill housing estate where I lived.
I probably got more encouragement to find out about Shakespere and Dickens from the 'failures' than I did from most of the teachers (with notable exceptions)
I could quote huge chunks of Shakespere off the top of my head because I'd been taught to learn it parrot-fashion.
It took a lovely girl from the village to get me to enjoy it (and her!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 05:09 PM

OK I (as a non academic) will bite.

I'd guess that the most commonly questioned degree is "media studies" (whatever that really involves) and I certainly do wonder why a relation got a degree in something essentially woodworking with a bit of design.

My (perhaps faulty) memory seems to suggest that there was a push towards more degrees with Blair but I do wonder whether there are things better treated as purely vocational.

I'm not going to argue that there isn't a place for say both a computer scientist and an "engineer" who has come up from a different route; and will state that someone I particular enjoy chatting to was a research scientist who has even talked to me about his work on strains of yeast for the brewing industry.

I'm not out to dismiss anyone in this thread but am enquiring (particularly from the academics) where they see the sort of vocational/academic line for qualifications,

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 06:47 PM

Why does there need to be a vocational/academic line, Jon? Just asking...

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 06:56 PM

One view seems to me some of of us may be more suited to one line or other, Steve. Me, I was certainly capable of playing the school system (in my case actually 2 years comp in Llandudo followed by a Grammar in Tunbridge Wells) until dropping out after the start of A level in science subjects but I think would have preferred to be more hands on.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 05:35 AM

"Vocational" sometimes has a ring of "also-ran" about it. Not so much a sense of my following a calling, more a sense of I can only use my hands, not my brain. Can't do the hard subjects. At my school, if you weren't much good at Latin you had to do tech drawing instead. If you were hopeless at French (or badly-taught, you decide) you did woodwork. Too weak for physics and chemistry? "Applied science" for you! Great if you're following a course of action that you're very enthusiastic about. Not so good if you're steered down it simply because you can't keep up with the swots!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 06:08 AM

A very reasonable argument Steve. Thanks for that one. On reflection, one of my brothers (the only one who had to go through the I think it was called the Kent test - a sort of 11 plus - I, the eldest and next one down went Welsh comp first and moved with the "A stream qualification" and we were back in Wales when youngest brother started secondary) might have been written off by the system. I am aware that on a parents day my mother asked about science in the secondary modern to get a sort of "kid's here can't do it/aren't interested" type response.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 06:12 AM

I agree Steve. There was/is a bit of a stigma about 'Vocational Courses', which there shouldn't be of course.

My feisty sister tackled the Head at our Grammar School to allow her to do Woodwork & Metalwork alongside her more academic subjects. She's much brighter than I, was obviously going to University, and the Head was astonished. She reckoned they would be very useful things to learn (they were!) He gave in and she was brilliant, much to the disgust of the boys. (Sexism was alive and well in those days)

I wanted to change my Uni course to Nursing Studies (a degree course) but my Director of Studies was equally astonished, and my traditional father forbade it. I had to do a Post Grad teaching qualification for a year after graduation. I still think a 3yr Teachers' Training College vocational course would have been more useful to me. (or entry as an SRN student in a hospital!)

I really think Studies should be just that, not separated into 'academic' or 'vocational', and not necessarily leading to anything in particular. What one does after receiving the qualification is up to oneself. People change their minds, circumstances alter, other opportunities arise, but all types of learning are never wasted.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 07:05 AM

...but all types of learning are never wasted"

THIS. Most intelligent thing written on MudCat for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Iains
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 08:24 AM

All degrees provide education, in addition some provide vocational training. I would be hesitant to use a doctor with a qualification in mathematics rather than medicine. Such a qualification would be useful in numerous other areas however. A qualification in Runic Studies would be poor preparation for a career in plumbing.
It must be obvious that certain career paths require focused studies, irregardless as to whether it is brain surgery or being a sparkie. They are not places for amateurs, no matter how well meaning. Other careers tolerate a more generalist education. Rightly or wrongly that is the system we have. What is tacitly accepted but never discussed is where education(ie pursuit of knowledge, analytical thinking etc. etc.) separates from vocational training.In reality it breaks along the lines of Arts versus sciences. As was said previously, all education is beneficial but for certain professions it is required to be specific. The only way to change this would be to regard schooling up to degree level as education to be followed by perhaps another period of vocational training. This would be good for masking the high unemployment rate among the young and also create debt slaves with a yet greater burden.
    The present system also overlooks the fact that some young people run through the secondary education system and achieve zero in the way of qualifications. Is this an area that should be brushed out of site? the creation of an alienated underclass of increasingly unemployable youth.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 08:58 AM

You're quite right of course, Iains. Very specialised jobs such as doctors, teachers. nurses, plumbers, electricians and so on will always require specialist training and knowledge. But a lot of this can be polished up and acquired by experience during the Probationary period after the degree. In my case, I was a Probationer Teacher for two years (in Scotland) My sister did a year's clinical experience (being on call in a hospital for over 100 hours a week sometimes!) Apprentices are usually attached to a time-served 'master' until they have enough working knowledge to go it alone. All this counts as 'education' in my view.

I think the secret is never to stop learning. When my elderly father died, he had been studying French and bridge, and going to several evening classes. He was also learning about car mechanics.
After retirement, I decided to learn British Sign Language, and Mandarin Chinese, and attended several short courses about Geology of the Hebrides, Medieval Cathedrals of Europe, The Life and Times of Charles Dickens for example. I even gave three lectures myself to our Ladies'Group:- 'Travels In West Africa', 'Prison Visiting' and 'Edinburgh Royal Infirmary'.
If one can keep on being incurably curious, one will naturally seek knowledge and one way or another keep on learning.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 01:26 PM

As a young man my Grandfather became obsessed with education, believing it to be the way working people could change the world for the better - as a merchant seaman he helped set up the first seaman's branch of The Workers Education Association
Throughout his life he loved Shakespeare, and for his own interest he filled notebooks full of his personal analysis of the plays, using down-to-earth language written in his native Liverpool vernacular
When my grandmother died he remarried and moved to Stoke on Trent where a couple of local students learned of his interest and arranged for him to visit the college regularly to talk of his interest (insisting he didn't attempt to 'poshify' his accent - he couldn't have done so if he had wanted to.
His talks became legendary and were reported in the local newspaper.
I still have a couple of his notebooks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 03:02 PM

wow Jim! What a wonderful man your grandfather was!
I admire anyone who has had very little in the way of educational opportunities, but who doggedly pursues knowledge through sheer determination and a burning interest. He must have been a most interesting person.

I know I harp on about my Ivorian husband, but I'm so proud of him. He had a terribly poor 'education' and was half-starved for most of his childhood. On coming to UK he learned English (he'd already had to learn French, although Malinke is his native language) Then Life In The UK test, which is extremely difficult; even Brits would find it hard. He took his driving test and passed the second time. Now he spends hours online learning about Politics, Astronomy, Science, Geography and Political History. I feel so sad that he never had the chance to get a really good education. I'm almost sure he could have succeeded at University, he's very intelligent.
He's a school cleaner on minimum wage, and sees the wonderful equipment and facilities in the school where he works. It's rather poignant for him. He often says how lucky young students are here in the West.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 07:47 AM

The more you know, the better informed your opinion is. Higher education is a struggle for potless old thicko's like me but there's no doubt it's changed my life for the better, even though it's floundered through no fault of my own.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 09:04 AM

He was Sen, but I don't think my Grandfather was unique; his generation becaame educated becuse of their politics
MacColl used to describe how, during the depression, unemployed workers would shelter in the Libraries and work their way through the most unlikely literature - he chose Engles because of his Salford connection (Condition of the Working Class in England sourced most of its information from there)
Walter Pardon had worked his way through all of Dickens and Hardy at least half a dozen times (Except Tess - he couldn't bear the idea of her being hanged)
He once told us, "The two greatest crimes in English literature was the hanging of Tess and the drowning of Maggie Tulliver (Mill on the Floss"
My father once asked me shortly after I left school whether I had read 'The Grapes of Wrath'
When I said I hadn't, he said, "You're lucky - you've got that in front of you".
He was right
Jim Carroll".

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 09:19 AM

It's odd that these days trying to get an education is frowned upon, and if you aspire to academia when you come from a very non-academic background some seem to think you are stuck up, when in reality people just love to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 02:01 PM

That is a very great shame. Never happened in my Grammar School days.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 05:39 PM

The more you know, the better informed your opinion is.

Informed opinion is passé.

I give you Twitler, who "love[s] the poorly educated' and vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Apr 17 - 08:55 PM

And the hits just keep coming!

Politics | Wed Apr 26, 2017 | REUTERS

Trump seeks to shrink federal role in education with new executive order.

President Donald Trump on Wednesday ordered Education Secretary Betsy DeVos to review the U.S. government's role in school policy, which supporters cheered as the first step in creating more local control in education and critics worried could lead to lower quality schools in poorer neighborhoods.

The head of the American Federation of Teachers union, Randi Weingarten, said the current education law already reduces federal power over schools.

"What the new law doesn't do is abandon the requirement for the federal government to protect the civil rights of our students, even if those rights run counter to what states and districts want to do."

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 03:04 AM

"Never happened in my Grammar School days."

That's because you posh kids were brought up proper.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 03:12 PM

I'm pleased to say that my eldest nephew has been appointed as a deputy headmaster - following in his father's and grandfather's footsteps.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 05:29 AM

And he's only 35!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 06:51 AM

Three generations of teachers Bonzo! Good for him. But I hope he has nerves of steel! Being a deputy head can be extremely stressful. One is in the firing line from all angles (the Head, pupils, parents and other colleagues) In all the schools where I worked, the poor Deputy had a class in addition to the managerial role. And was always the 'bad cop' tough disciplinarian.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 06:58 AM

Forgot to add, I was once offered a Deputy Headship in a huge Primary school, but for reasons stated above, I declined swiftly!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 07:37 AM

Teaching is one of the noblest professions. A society should value it's teachers greatly.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 09:46 AM

Well he's young and he'll have only a few minutes travel from home. In any case most jobs come with stress of some sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 02:43 PM

I think I would have been perfectly happy and stress-free if I could have earned the same salary cleaning for a living. I've had little cleaning jobs all my life (up until three years ago, cleaning a holiday barn with my husband) One just - well- cleans. No stress, a good physical workout, satisfaction seeing the results (I love a nice clean loo, fridge and oven for example!) No forms or accountability. No Inspections. Perfect. Just call me Mrs Mopp!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Apr 17 - 11:31 AM

Funny thing accountability - UK businesses are accountable to HM Revenue & Customs for VAT matters, more so than a layman wooul imagine. Following an undercover visit to one of our clients, HMRC demanded to take away and inspect records for a certain period. The "Inspector" who came to our office looked no more than 15 and was a complete idiot - so accountability can work in your favour!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 17 - 11:53 AM

My school cleaner husband has regular Appraisals. He brings home the same long form to fill in, with questions such as:-

"Are there any adjustments or changes which could enable you to perform your work more efficiently?"

As it is I who writes the answers for him, I'm tempted to put:-

"Yes. Tell the children not to wee all over the floor in the school toilets. And to stop sticking chewing gum under their desks. Thank you."
Honestly, for just over £7 an hour, he should tell them where to stick their Appraisal!
But the cleaning jobs I did were for private individuals on a self-employed basis. No supervision, complete freedom to complete the work to my own satisfaction. And I always charged £10 per hour.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 02:52 AM

Senoufou - 29 Apr 17 - 02:43 PM

I think I would have been perfectly happy and stress-free if I could have earned the same salary cleaning for a living. I've had little cleaning jobs all my life (up until three years ago, cleaning a holiday barn with my husband) One just - well- cleans. No stress, a good physical workout, satisfaction seeing the results (I love a nice clean loo, fridge and oven for example!) No forms or accountability. No Inspections. Perfect. Just call me Mrs Mopp!

Believe me Mrs Mopp if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected and you would be both responsible and accountable for that cleaning being done to what I considered to be the required standard - you being paid would depend upon it.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 May 17 - 03:24 AM

If a private individual engages a cleaner, they of course have every right to inspect the work afterwards and to ensure it meets their standards. In all the little jobs like this I've had, I'm sure the person employing me had a look, and they were obviously satisfied as I never had any complaints, in fact the friends of the clients wanted me to 'do' for them as well. But there was nothing 'official' about it, and no forms to fill in etc. or any pressure, except to get the job done in the time allotted.

The holiday barn job was for a friend, and the 'feedback' was from the guests who stayed in it. Their reviews were always positive about the cleanliness. The friend was very pleased with our work. My husband and I make a great team. :)

The only officialdom was the blinking Tax form for the self-employed. This has to be done in addition to one's Tax affairs as an employee, and it's extremely complicated due to HMRC's dreadful website. Most of it wasn't applicable to us, but the wretched page wouldn't move on unless one entered something in every box. But the box wouldn't accept zero. I had to phone for help. (Nice lady, very kind and helpful,luckily) One gets fined £100 if one doesn't submit the form on time. Thank the Lord we've finished with all that! (I'm too decrepit to work nowadays)

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 03:35 AM

"Believe me Mrs Mopp"
Somewhat pompously patronising addressed to somebody with initiative enough to find work to see herself through education.
It appears to be based on the assumption that anybody taking such an initiative is not trustworthy enough to have sought work beyond her abilities
Cleaning and domestic work, alongside the catering industry are notoriously among the most poorly paid and demanding in hours that there are - they always have been - that is why they are sought by students and employers who on't wish to pay too much.
It should be obvious that any employer would very soon be intelligent enough to terminate any such employment, should be bright enough to give somebody a try without making any applicant leap over your particular hurdles
When employers start paying wages that demand a high level of skill and dedication, then they may be in a position to start demanding such qualifications.
As things stand, people are now forced to seek employment for what wages are on offer without choice, whatever their personal inclinations and qualifications
That is the greatest disincentive to a high standard of education in Britain today.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 May 17 - 04:31 AM

It's true Jim that the pay is abysmal for cleaning in the public sector. My poor husband gets a measly £7.50 an hour. He works very awkward hours (2pm - 9pm) and has to go to two different sites. He often has to wipe excrement from the walls of the school toilets and mop up wee from the floor. It's a secondary school, and the students should know better, but he's too timid to complain. They're finding it hard to get cleaners who will stay. Any young folk only last a week.
However, he seems to adore the job, mainly because everyone loves him and he feels very secure there. But it could be seen as exploitation in a way...

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 05:01 AM

Believe me Mrs Mopp if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected and you would be both responsible and accountable for that cleaning being done to what I considered to be the required standard - you being paid would depend upon it.

...
If a private individual engages a cleaner, they of course have every right to inspect the work afterwards and to ensure it meets their standards. In all the little jobs like this I've had, I'm sure the person employing me had a look, and they were obviously satisfied as I never had any complaints, in fact the friends of the clients wanted me to 'do' for them as well. But there was nothing 'official' about it, and no forms to fill in etc. or any pressure, except to get the job done in the time allotted.



It is interesting to see people's differing attitudes. We don't have a cleaner, but for a few years we have handed over all the ironing to a local two-person business. (We can have long and interesting debates about the politics another time).

Anyway, on one occasion a few months into the arrangement my daughter answered the door to find them standing very nervously because they had started to iron a non-iron shirt and the collar was damaged. Please could they replace it?

My daughters response:   She knew me far better than they did so
a) I would never notice
b) if I did notice, I wouldn't care
c) It was my fault for sending a non-iron shirt in the first place and if needs be she would make that quite plain to me.
d) so no, they should not dream of replacing it.

And I agree with her. As far as I am concerned, we are in a mutually agreeable arrangement and they are not servants. They have every right to be treated with respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 05:13 AM

"It is interesting to see people's differing attitudes"

Very true DmcG, one a bad tempered, belligerent, blustering bully, the other a warm, generous, rational, intelligent, caring individual.

I

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 17 - 05:45 AM

And the bad-tempered, belligerent, blustering and bullying nature of his posts speaks volumes about his own defective education. Mrs Mopp indeed. Senoufou has the good grace and dignity to ignore that gratuitous insult. Bet that annoyed him.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:29 AM

Glad to see that all those standing to the left have, as usual, completely missed the point.

Senoufou: A cleaning job that was "stress free", that had no responsibilities/accountability and no standard to be met as there were no inspections.

Teribus: Merely pointed out that ALL jobs have responsibilities where the person performing that job is accountable to the person paying them to do that job for doing it properly and that a person's work can be subject to inspection at any time by the person paying them to do that job and it is the latter's requirements and standards that have to be met.

DmcG - Legally any "contract" is viewed as being an arrangement entered into by two reasonable parties. In the case you used to illustrate your point my view would in all probability be the same as the line taken by your daughter, the actions of the Laundry service having realised the error was correct and they are to be commended for it. Apart from that a "Non-Iron" shirt means that "you do not have to iron it" IT DOES NOT MEAN that the shirt CANNOT or even MUST NOT be ironed.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:40 AM

"Merely pointed out that ALL jobs have responsibilities where the person performing that job is accountable to the person paying them to do that job for doing it properly"
That "properly" needs to be accompanied by the rigght of an eployee to be suitably paid for the work done and suitable conditions
Too often not the case with domestic workers and those in the catering trade who are employed because of the wages they are forced to accept ant the conditions under which they are required to work
The employer-employee relationship has to be one in which both have a say
Not the case with these occupations
Doesn't even begin to touch on your pomposity ("Mrs Mopp") - patronisingly arrogant in the extreme, and typical of many employers in these occupations.
That smacks of a master/slave relationship
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:44 AM

Shouting as well, quelle surprise.

Ignore him DMcG he may go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:51 AM

Steve Shaw - 01 May 17 - 05:45 AM

"Mrs Mopp indeed. Senoufou has the good grace and dignity to ignore that gratuitous insult. Bet that annoyed him."

WHAT gratuitous insult Shaw? Merely acceding to Senoufou's request - but in case you missed it:


Senoufou - 29 Apr 17 - 02:43 PM

"Just call me Mrs Mopp!"

Read the complete post before you jump in with both feet Shaw - same applies to you Jom.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:54 AM

Oh, I can cope quite happily with people who disagree with me being around.


Not that it matters in the slightest, but the shirt concerned was definitely not to be ironed. Take my word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:55 AM

Ever thought of taking an Anger Management Course Teriblossom, if anyone could benefit I'm sure you could.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:58 AM

Ah, the problem being that the fact the shirt was not to be ironed does not fit into Teri's view of the things that matter, mainly his own opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 08:00 AM

"Read the complete post before you jump in with both feet Shaw - same applies to you Jom."
I read the full post
Now how about you responding to mine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 17 - 08:02 AM

You were gratuitously rude and abrasive to someone who is never remotely rude or abrasive here. Live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 10:35 AM

I am perfectly sure that Senoufou can speak for herself, just as I am perfectly sure that Senoufou hoisted onboard the point that I was making.

Now you tell me Shaw who was it that asked to be called Mrs Mopp and how me referring to the lady as Mrs Mopp could be termed a gratuitous insult?

Another example of you just thrashing about wildly looking for something to take offence at on someone else's behalf.

Jom you are always good at pointing up the obligations of the bosses and rights of the workers - not so keen on owning up to the fact that the workers do not only have rights they too also have responsibilities and obligations, that was the point under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 11:17 AM

Doesn't alter the fact that you were gratuitously rude and abrasive, to use Steve's most eloquent phrase.

It is your usual way of responding so I am not at all surprised.

It merely serves to demonstrate once again what a thoroughly unpleasant person you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 11:32 AM

"Jom you are always good at pointing up the obligations of the bosses and rights of the workers"
I am perfectly aware of workers responsibilities, aving been one for haldf a century - I am aso aware tat, should a worker not meet up to those responsibilities they would find themselves out of a job pretty sharpish - would that the same be said of the management
I've seen a number of workers dismissed for not doing their job - can never remember a manager meeting the same fate.
Responsibilities must coe with rights - yet scum like the Thatcher crowd systematically smashed those rights
The lazy British workman is a Tory myth - the average British worker is second to none for acquiring skills and dedicating themselves to it.
The only rights we are left with now is to accept what work we are given or else, despite the fact that all chances of planning your lives from the time of leaving school has long gone.
Once there were plumbers, or fitters, or carpenters, or electricians.... now there are only "workers or unemployed".
These "patriots" who salute the flag and despise the people whose work is essential to every single aspect of our lives make me sick
We can live without profiteers, investors and owners..... we wouldn't last a week without light or clean water or transport, or houses......
Profit is totally surplus to everyday needs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 11:33 AM

the fact that the workers do not only have rights they too also have responsibilities and obligations, that was the point under discussion.

Perhaps for you it was, Teribus. However, if you think that the way my daughter and I behaved was driven by contracts and workers'/employers rights and obligations, I have to disillusion you.   Certainly a contract exists, but that is the mere starting point and to stop there would be a thin gruel of a way of viewing the world, to my mind. Still, we each choose how we want to see things.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 May 17 - 12:01 PM

I understand from a former teacher that since 2014, Roman Numerals are compulsary learning under the current curriculum - seems fair enough to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 12:07 PM

Really? Well, I've no objection to people understanding how to find their way round the appendix of a book which uses Roman numerals, but I hope not too much time is spent trying to understand MDCCLXXXIII. If you get interested in old buildings you will learn it for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 12:56 PM

Or even watching television.

Like many of my age I learnt roman numerals, surprisingly I do know people of my age who struggle with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 12:57 PM

"Doesn't alter the fact that you were gratuitously rude and abrasive, to use Steve's most eloquent phrase."

Pray tell me in what way was it gratuitously rude and abrasive Raggy? Or are you just doing your little lapdog thing?

Here is the post and in reading it everybody should remember it was Senoufou herself who asked to be called Mrs Mopp (So that point should not appear in any of your reasoning):

"Believe me Mrs Mopp if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected and you would be both responsible and accountable for that cleaning being done to what I considered to be the required standard - you being paid would depend upon it." - Teribus

The component parts are:

1: if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected

2: you would be both responsible and accountable for that cleaning being done to what I considered to be the required standard

3: you being paid would depend upon it

Please detail points that are gratuitously rude

Please detail points that are abrasive.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 17 - 01:06 PM

Senoufou (who can definitely speak for herself, though I wouldn't be surprised if she had decided to ignore this spat), was being self-deprecating and humorous when she made that remark about herself. It was not an invitation to some arrogant, overly-aggressive bully to cash in on it in order to ridicule the points she was making. You really haven't got a clue, have you? Jaysus, I'll bet you're a real wizz at dinner parties!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 01:09 PM

Eh up Steve, do you think he'd even get an invite !!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 01:21 PM

DMcG it was the point of my response to Senoufou.

I think that you'd be utterly amazed at how similar our views are on this. I was rather disappointed at the inference that a "cleaners" job was free of accountability - it is a job that if performed in the absence of the owners of the property carries a great deal of responsibility and a great deal of trust.

On the "contract" thing - simplest and plainest is buying a pint - you as the customer or "client" put up your hard earned for a product - the licencee is responsible and accountable for providing you with a pint that is in good condition and drinkable. Such contracts are entered into and completed millions of times each day without a single word having to be put down on paper, does not make them any the lesser for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 02:13 PM

"1: if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected "
Now decent employer "inspects" work in teh manner you suggest - if it is not done properly, the employee is not asked back
If you wexpect to inspect work you should be preapared to pay a reasonable rate for it
That is not the case with cleaning jobs or those in the catering trade or the hospitality industry - all notoriosly low-paid, crap conditions jobs
And they have to put up with shit of the type you spout about lazty, incompetent workers
To listen to you people, you'd think cleaners drove about in Jags
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 May 17 - 02:39 PM

I think I see what you meant Teribus. If I'm understanding your last post correctly, you only meant to attribute dignity, trust and responsibility to cleaners in the same way as to any other job, including teaching.

It's true that any job of any sort is for pay, not for fun. And any workers can be assessed (formally or informally) by those paying them. It's a two-way contract isn't it? You're right, and I'm sorry if your remarks were misconstrued.

My reason for introducing cleaning jobs into the education debate was to contrast the lack of stress, such as that engendered by Ofsted Inspections (which are the Devil's work, believe me) I was blissfully happy scrubbing away, while my teaching, though truly my vocation and extremely enjoyable, was made hell at times by the inordinate amount of forms, paperwork and snotty inexperienced inspectors breathing down my neck.

Any employer has the choice whether to be a snippy sod or a generous, kind and considerate person. The ironed shirt episode is an excellent example of the latter. I've been very lucky in that all the people I cleaned for were delightful, and did all they could to make my work enjoyable.
If I wasn't such an old crock nowadays, I'd be out with my cleaning gear cheerfully dusting and polishing. It would tone up my muscles, and give me some exercise.
And I don't mind being called Mrs Mopp! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 02:48 PM

This we got from Jom - who by the way loves to be enraged:

"1: if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected " - Teribus

"Now decent employer "inspects" work in teh manner you suggest - if it is not done properly, the employee is not asked back" - Jom

I take it that under this scheme of things Jom that this decent employer you mentioned would still be expected to pay the "cleaner" who did not "clean"?

To demand, or to accept pay for work that has not been properly done is dishonest Jom - or doesn't that concept apply in your world?

As to "cleaners" driving about in Jags - I know of one who on leaving the Navy wrote a list of all the jobs he had been asked to do in the Navy - none seemed to have any use in "civilian life" and at the bottom of his list was the entry "Cleaning Heads and Bathrooms" - he started his own business first cleaning the toilets of his local (Pub)- that led to doing the same thing in others, he set up his own company and branched out into cleaning clubs and offices - ended up selling his company 15 years later for about £3 million - large Oaks from small acorns grow - amazing what hard work and application can do - eh Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 03:18 PM

"I take it that under this scheme of things Jom that this decent employer you mentioned would still be expected to pay the "cleaner" who did not "clean"?"
Of course they7 would
If you employ someong to do a job you do so because you believe they are capable of doing it
If that proves not to be the case, then you don't employ them again
In the half century I was self employed in London I never had my work "inspected" before I was paid, any more than I insisted that they clear the cheque before I signed the job off
That is not how things are done in a world where people trust each other.
I worked for some extremely wealthy people for fifteen years, without a break - I never advertised and relied totally on my name being passed on.
If I did a crappy job I would not be asked back - that was never the case.
Why should cleaners be any different?
As I said, it's not as if the wages they received were anything more than a little above subsistence rate   
I found that the wealthiest people that I worked for were often the   meanest and most unpleasant - and full on their own importance (not unlike you)
I worked for a man reckoned to be the wealthiest in Britain (then), the Duke of W.......
One day I was working in his kitchen when he put his head around the door and told me he had to go out for a few hours.
I worked on until I'd finished and went to leave when I found he'd locked the kitchen door (in case I didn't run off with the cutlery - I had to wait another hour and a half (no payment for extra time).
I finally walked off the job one winter in protest
A gang of us working there had been instructed not to use the front door (of a huge house in Eaton Square), to get into the luxury first floor apartment because the neighbours had complained about the presence of half a dozen workmen.
We had to climb up a ladder up to the flat roof over the front door.
I was fine, but the tradesmen I was working with, on the point of retiring, was having trouble with the ice-covered ladder we were forced to use.
I walked off and never went back.
Not far from this job, in Sloan Square, I worked for one of the world's leading shoe designers - he had a shop on the Square.
WE never quibbled about the price, but I finally refused to to work for him as he invariably kept me waiting for payment for over a year.
Tight as a duck's arse.
If you employed me you trusted me - if you weren't satisfied, you never employed me again.
I had to trust them - so they needed to trust me.Give me an honest working class family instead of an up-their-own-arse wealthy one any day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 03:43 PM

DMcG ...I think that you'd be utterly amazed at how similar our views are on this

Quite possibly. I have misunderstood people before and no doubt will again. My views on it are well expressed in a song by Alex Glasgow (who was a Trotskyist, so you may not have got on too well!)

---(extract) ---
The notice on the factory door declared that they want "Hands";
I've seen the notice many a time, and now I understand.
It's hands they want, and nowt beside,
Not hands with dignity or pride:
Just hands, hands, hands, lads,
Hands, lads, hands.

These hands seen through the master's eyes are simple horny hands.
They've got no bellies or brains attached, they're nowt but horny hands
These hands have got no hopes nor fears,
No mouths to feed, no bairns to rear.
Just hands, hands, hands, lads,
Hands, lads, hands.

----

So in short, I don't want to be the sort of person who employs hands rather than people. I hope you do too, whether it is a cleaner, or more indirectly the bar staff, or the soul on the supermarket till.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 03:44 PM

That should be "I hope you agree", obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 04:57 PM

The latest occurrence is not the first time you have had a unreasonable dig at Senoufou, the last time you did so you didn't post for 3 or 4 days.

I presume in embarrassment.

You are noted for being an unreasonable, blustering, belligerent, bully. Your latest attempt at an apology in far too little and far too late.

If you would like me to find your previous comment I am quite happy to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 May 17 - 06:10 PM

ended up selling his company 15 years later for about £3 million

Surname was "Alger", no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 05 May 17 - 02:04 AM

Ehmmm Raggy, unlike you and your pals (Serial "gobshites" all), I only ever post if I have actually got something to say in response to comments made.

"I don't want to be the sort of person who employs hands rather than people." - DMcG

Hope you never need an electrician then DMcG as everyone knows:

"Many hands make light work"

I'll get me coat (As Shaw would say)

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 17 - 02:27 AM

Just to put this in the context it needs to be in, as raised by Sen.
If you employ a skilled trades-person you buy his/her skill/experience/ time, and pay the going rate for those aspects of work.
If you employ a student to do seem cleaning for you, all you buy is his/her time - you take your chances on everything - 'caveat emptor' is the only rule of thumb
This is the case with all work carried out be someone unqualified in the task.
The idea that such work should be 'inspected' before payment was forthcoming is a nonsense - you get what you pay for and demanding more is typical of the cheapskate mentality of today's society.
You want a guaranteed high standard of work - pay the going rate of a qualified cleaner or firm - a damn sight higher than you would pay some breadline student working to supplement their income.
One of the most degrading aspects of this declining system is that people are being treated as 'a pair of hands', forced into any job they are offered for whatever pay is on offer.
It was always difficulty for the average young person to plan their future with any confidence, now it is virtually impossible.
Education is one of the first victims of this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 May 17 - 02:57 AM

I think it depends on the attitude of the employer.
Even when employing an 'unskilled pair of hands' one should explain gently but clearly at first what is required, and give help and support if needed. This builds the confidence of the worker, and will result in a good standard of work. This is far from 'inspection' or 'monitoring'. It's actually a kindness, and helps with the development of new skills.

I was always grateful when the employer made it clear exactly what they wanted in the way of cleaning, and I knew precisely what to do in the time allowed. Once everything began, I was left to do my little job, as I was trusted to do it properly.

Contrast this with those Ofsted demons! After over twenty years' experience, I was treated to a pompous ass trying to 'correct my methods' by implementing the latest fad in Education. One even interrupted my lesson and proceeded to demonstrate to my bemused class the 'right' way to proceed. I was fuming. It's not that I'm so arrogant as to think I'm always right. But this chap was honestly a real twit. He couldn't have taught my Siamese cat how to eat a bit of chicken.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 17 - 04:15 AM

You make my point perfectly Sen
The relationship should be exactly that - a mutual co-operation rather the the master/servant one suggested here.
I enjoyed my work most when I was asked to advise, say on a lighting layout.
Towards the end, that became both the most satisfying and the most demading - you ceased being a donkey
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 May 17 - 05:16 AM

"After over twenty years' experience, I was treated to a pompous ass trying to 'correct my methods' by implementing the latest fad in Education"

Interesting, my Dad retired from his headmaster post at 62 in 1989 because he could see what was coming. He read the signs coming from the then HM School Inspectors. My brother in law retired from his headmaster post at 55!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 May 17 - 05:19 AM

I have been known to tell both VAT and PAYE inspectors to fuck off in the past on account of their annoying stupidity!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 May 17 - 08:14 AM

When I first started teaching I had a job in a very poor Glasgow school. (I loved it!) In those days, only one person arrived to inspect us. The first teacher to get wind of his appearance sent a pupil round to alert the rest of us. I was rather bemused when a breathless lad burst into my room and whispered cryptically in my ear, "Miss! Miss! H.M.I.!!!"
But the Inspector was a gem. Very kindly, and sympathetic to our difficulties with the deprivation of our pupils. And not in the least intimidating.
He watched my lesson, then asked the children to sing him a little song. They chose, "Allee, ballee, allee ballee bee, sittin' on yer mammy's knee, Greetin' fer a wee baubie, tae buy some Coulter's candy!" This was Chinese to me (hadn't learned Glasgae yet) but I smiled benignly, and he departed with a cheery wave.

Contrast that with the team of about twenty Ofsted idiots in the huge Middle School in Norwich, who stood and watched me on playground duty clutching my cold coffee cup. What did they expect me to do? Teach the Theory of Relativity while the 400 pupils played?
They also opened all my cupboards and solemnly wrote on their clipboards. ("Rather dusty!" ?)
Another established himself in the large school library for the entire day (what a cushy job!) and recorded every child that came in, and every book that was borrowed or returned. (Er...why?)

After all these shenanigans, I was what my Irish mother would have called 'torrollee dessgusted' !

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 17 - 12:25 PM

Your kindly old inspector up in Glasgow could have deduced very little, acting as he did, whereas the team who arrived at your much larger school down in Norwich, according to what you described learned quite a lot:

1: Standard of supervision related to 400 pupils - how much did you see of what was happening in the playground compared to how much they noted.

2: That the stuff in the cupboards in your classroom was never used

3: Good information related to the reading choices of pupils of all ages at the school and the percentage of children at the school who made use of the library - that would tell them quite a lot.

Absolutely amazed that you could not see that.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 May 17 - 12:38 PM

I'm really really delighted that you're amazed Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 May 17 - 02:10 PM

Coming from a family of teachers, I am also delighted you're amazed Teribus. I can tell you that a number of Ofsted idiots work for agencies, and one I used to know ran her own company and charged up to £500 per day!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 17 - 06:04 PM

At £500 per day and running her own company, she's not the one that is the idiot Bonzo - the idiots are the one's hiring her. I would have thought as an accountant you would have appreciated that.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 May 17 - 03:18 AM

Er...redundant apostrophe Teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 17 - 05:24 AM

There was a spare one in the box

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 May 17 - 02:24 PM

I actually feel horrible now for pointing that out. It's the height of bad manners. Sorry Teribus.
I make all sorts of typos nowadays, as my fingers are rather stiff and swollen, and tap keys I never mean to tap.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 17 - 06:03 PM

Don't lose any sleep over it, Sen.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: ripov
Date: 08 May 17 - 08:42 PM

Senoufou, you reminded me of the times when we had student teachers. While they were gaining experience we played them up terribly, but when HMI came to assess them, we were well aware that our behaviour would affect their future. So unless they had showed total incompetence we were perfectly behaved!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 May 17 - 02:54 AM

I used to tell my pupils that the Inspectors would be arriving to inspect everyone, including the pupils, and that they would notice every misdemeanour, such as talking in class, copying from one's neighbour and messing about. They wanted to see who was listening carefully to the teacher and who wasn't paying attention. (This was perfectly true in a way, as they would indeed have 'noticed'.)

Classroom door opens. Inspector enters, complete with clipboard. Pupils rigid with sanctimonious attentiveness. Result!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Thompson
Date: 09 May 17 - 05:30 AM

The funny thing is how little research is done - or perhaps how little is paid attention to - in relation to the effect of "education, education, education".

A brief anecdotal moment: in Ireland, it was the norm for most children to leave school at 14 or even 12 and go into a factory until a succession of educational earthquakes: Minister for Education Donogh O'Malley announced (to the shock of his Finance Minister) that all pupils would be entitled to free secondary education; then this was extended (for a few brief years) to free third-level education to primary degree level.

The effect on the Irish economy was startling - multinationals started to site their European headquarters in Ireland because of the highly-educated population; a few years later the people who worked in these multinationals started hiving off companies that were customers of the multinationals, then exporting.

Then a series of conservative governments decided education for free wasn't a good idea and stopped pumping money into schools and universities. Costs for books and uniforms plus lots of other 'voluntary' costs reappeared in schools, and university fees were reintroduced, not by any such name but in fact.

The Troika in its stupidity made this worse, and now Irish education is far lower in quality than it was when it was free. The effect on the economy has been disastrous.

De-anecdoting, it would be interesting to do a worldwide study of the success or otherwise of countries, districts and groups that have free education (obviously with the quality of that education being factored in).