BS: Choice of education

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Thompson
Date: 09 May 17 - 05:30 AM

The funny thing is how little research is done - or perhaps how little is paid attention to - in relation to the effect of "education, education, education".

A brief anecdotal moment: in Ireland, it was the norm for most children to leave school at 14 or even 12 and go into a factory until a succession of educational earthquakes: Minister for Education Donogh O'Malley announced (to the shock of his Finance Minister) that all pupils would be entitled to free secondary education; then this was extended (for a few brief years) to free third-level education to primary degree level.

The effect on the Irish economy was startling - multinationals started to site their European headquarters in Ireland because of the highly-educated population; a few years later the people who worked in these multinationals started hiving off companies that were customers of the multinationals, then exporting.

Then a series of conservative governments decided education for free wasn't a good idea and stopped pumping money into schools and universities. Costs for books and uniforms plus lots of other 'voluntary' costs reappeared in schools, and university fees were reintroduced, not by any such name but in fact.

The Troika in its stupidity made this worse, and now Irish education is far lower in quality than it was when it was free. The effect on the economy has been disastrous.

De-anecdoting, it would be interesting to do a worldwide study of the success or otherwise of countries, districts and groups that have free education (obviously with the quality of that education being factored in).

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 May 17 - 02:54 AM

I used to tell my pupils that the Inspectors would be arriving to inspect everyone, including the pupils, and that they would notice every misdemeanour, such as talking in class, copying from one's neighbour and messing about. They wanted to see who was listening carefully to the teacher and who wasn't paying attention. (This was perfectly true in a way, as they would indeed have 'noticed'.)

Classroom door opens. Inspector enters, complete with clipboard. Pupils rigid with sanctimonious attentiveness. Result!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: ripov
Date: 08 May 17 - 08:42 PM

Senoufou, you reminded me of the times when we had student teachers. While they were gaining experience we played them up terribly, but when HMI came to assess them, we were well aware that our behaviour would affect their future. So unless they had showed total incompetence we were perfectly behaved!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 17 - 06:03 PM

Don't lose any sleep over it, Sen.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 May 17 - 02:24 PM

I actually feel horrible now for pointing that out. It's the height of bad manners. Sorry Teribus.
I make all sorts of typos nowadays, as my fingers are rather stiff and swollen, and tap keys I never mean to tap.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 17 - 05:24 AM

There was a spare one in the box

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 May 17 - 03:18 AM

Er...redundant apostrophe Teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 17 - 06:04 PM

At £500 per day and running her own company, she's not the one that is the idiot Bonzo - the idiots are the one's hiring her. I would have thought as an accountant you would have appreciated that.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 May 17 - 02:10 PM

Coming from a family of teachers, I am also delighted you're amazed Teribus. I can tell you that a number of Ofsted idiots work for agencies, and one I used to know ran her own company and charged up to £500 per day!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 May 17 - 12:38 PM

I'm really really delighted that you're amazed Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 17 - 12:25 PM

Your kindly old inspector up in Glasgow could have deduced very little, acting as he did, whereas the team who arrived at your much larger school down in Norwich, according to what you described learned quite a lot:

1: Standard of supervision related to 400 pupils - how much did you see of what was happening in the playground compared to how much they noted.

2: That the stuff in the cupboards in your classroom was never used

3: Good information related to the reading choices of pupils of all ages at the school and the percentage of children at the school who made use of the library - that would tell them quite a lot.

Absolutely amazed that you could not see that.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 May 17 - 08:14 AM

When I first started teaching I had a job in a very poor Glasgow school. (I loved it!) In those days, only one person arrived to inspect us. The first teacher to get wind of his appearance sent a pupil round to alert the rest of us. I was rather bemused when a breathless lad burst into my room and whispered cryptically in my ear, "Miss! Miss! H.M.I.!!!"
But the Inspector was a gem. Very kindly, and sympathetic to our difficulties with the deprivation of our pupils. And not in the least intimidating.
He watched my lesson, then asked the children to sing him a little song. They chose, "Allee, ballee, allee ballee bee, sittin' on yer mammy's knee, Greetin' fer a wee baubie, tae buy some Coulter's candy!" This was Chinese to me (hadn't learned Glasgae yet) but I smiled benignly, and he departed with a cheery wave.

Contrast that with the team of about twenty Ofsted idiots in the huge Middle School in Norwich, who stood and watched me on playground duty clutching my cold coffee cup. What did they expect me to do? Teach the Theory of Relativity while the 400 pupils played?
They also opened all my cupboards and solemnly wrote on their clipboards. ("Rather dusty!" ?)
Another established himself in the large school library for the entire day (what a cushy job!) and recorded every child that came in, and every book that was borrowed or returned. (Er...why?)

After all these shenanigans, I was what my Irish mother would have called 'torrollee dessgusted' !

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 May 17 - 05:19 AM

I have been known to tell both VAT and PAYE inspectors to fuck off in the past on account of their annoying stupidity!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 May 17 - 05:16 AM

"After over twenty years' experience, I was treated to a pompous ass trying to 'correct my methods' by implementing the latest fad in Education"

Interesting, my Dad retired from his headmaster post at 62 in 1989 because he could see what was coming. He read the signs coming from the then HM School Inspectors. My brother in law retired from his headmaster post at 55!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 17 - 04:15 AM

You make my point perfectly Sen
The relationship should be exactly that - a mutual co-operation rather the the master/servant one suggested here.
I enjoyed my work most when I was asked to advise, say on a lighting layout.
Towards the end, that became both the most satisfying and the most demading - you ceased being a donkey
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 May 17 - 02:57 AM

I think it depends on the attitude of the employer.
Even when employing an 'unskilled pair of hands' one should explain gently but clearly at first what is required, and give help and support if needed. This builds the confidence of the worker, and will result in a good standard of work. This is far from 'inspection' or 'monitoring'. It's actually a kindness, and helps with the development of new skills.

I was always grateful when the employer made it clear exactly what they wanted in the way of cleaning, and I knew precisely what to do in the time allowed. Once everything began, I was left to do my little job, as I was trusted to do it properly.

Contrast this with those Ofsted demons! After over twenty years' experience, I was treated to a pompous ass trying to 'correct my methods' by implementing the latest fad in Education. One even interrupted my lesson and proceeded to demonstrate to my bemused class the 'right' way to proceed. I was fuming. It's not that I'm so arrogant as to think I'm always right. But this chap was honestly a real twit. He couldn't have taught my Siamese cat how to eat a bit of chicken.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 17 - 02:27 AM

Just to put this in the context it needs to be in, as raised by Sen.
If you employ a skilled trades-person you buy his/her skill/experience/ time, and pay the going rate for those aspects of work.
If you employ a student to do seem cleaning for you, all you buy is his/her time - you take your chances on everything - 'caveat emptor' is the only rule of thumb
This is the case with all work carried out be someone unqualified in the task.
The idea that such work should be 'inspected' before payment was forthcoming is a nonsense - you get what you pay for and demanding more is typical of the cheapskate mentality of today's society.
You want a guaranteed high standard of work - pay the going rate of a qualified cleaner or firm - a damn sight higher than you would pay some breadline student working to supplement their income.
One of the most degrading aspects of this declining system is that people are being treated as 'a pair of hands', forced into any job they are offered for whatever pay is on offer.
It was always difficulty for the average young person to plan their future with any confidence, now it is virtually impossible.
Education is one of the first victims of this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 05 May 17 - 02:04 AM

Ehmmm Raggy, unlike you and your pals (Serial "gobshites" all), I only ever post if I have actually got something to say in response to comments made.

"I don't want to be the sort of person who employs hands rather than people." - DMcG

Hope you never need an electrician then DMcG as everyone knows:

"Many hands make light work"

I'll get me coat (As Shaw would say)

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 May 17 - 06:10 PM

ended up selling his company 15 years later for about £3 million

Surname was "Alger", no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 04:57 PM

The latest occurrence is not the first time you have had a unreasonable dig at Senoufou, the last time you did so you didn't post for 3 or 4 days.

I presume in embarrassment.

You are noted for being an unreasonable, blustering, belligerent, bully. Your latest attempt at an apology in far too little and far too late.

If you would like me to find your previous comment I am quite happy to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 03:44 PM

That should be "I hope you agree", obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 03:43 PM

DMcG ...I think that you'd be utterly amazed at how similar our views are on this

Quite possibly. I have misunderstood people before and no doubt will again. My views on it are well expressed in a song by Alex Glasgow (who was a Trotskyist, so you may not have got on too well!)

---(extract) ---
The notice on the factory door declared that they want "Hands";
I've seen the notice many a time, and now I understand.
It's hands they want, and nowt beside,
Not hands with dignity or pride:
Just hands, hands, hands, lads,
Hands, lads, hands.

These hands seen through the master's eyes are simple horny hands.
They've got no bellies or brains attached, they're nowt but horny hands
These hands have got no hopes nor fears,
No mouths to feed, no bairns to rear.
Just hands, hands, hands, lads,
Hands, lads, hands.

----

So in short, I don't want to be the sort of person who employs hands rather than people. I hope you do too, whether it is a cleaner, or more indirectly the bar staff, or the soul on the supermarket till.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 03:18 PM

"I take it that under this scheme of things Jom that this decent employer you mentioned would still be expected to pay the "cleaner" who did not "clean"?"
Of course they7 would
If you employ someong to do a job you do so because you believe they are capable of doing it
If that proves not to be the case, then you don't employ them again
In the half century I was self employed in London I never had my work "inspected" before I was paid, any more than I insisted that they clear the cheque before I signed the job off
That is not how things are done in a world where people trust each other.
I worked for some extremely wealthy people for fifteen years, without a break - I never advertised and relied totally on my name being passed on.
If I did a crappy job I would not be asked back - that was never the case.
Why should cleaners be any different?
As I said, it's not as if the wages they received were anything more than a little above subsistence rate   
I found that the wealthiest people that I worked for were often the   meanest and most unpleasant - and full on their own importance (not unlike you)
I worked for a man reckoned to be the wealthiest in Britain (then), the Duke of W.......
One day I was working in his kitchen when he put his head around the door and told me he had to go out for a few hours.
I worked on until I'd finished and went to leave when I found he'd locked the kitchen door (in case I didn't run off with the cutlery - I had to wait another hour and a half (no payment for extra time).
I finally walked off the job one winter in protest
A gang of us working there had been instructed not to use the front door (of a huge house in Eaton Square), to get into the luxury first floor apartment because the neighbours had complained about the presence of half a dozen workmen.
We had to climb up a ladder up to the flat roof over the front door.
I was fine, but the tradesmen I was working with, on the point of retiring, was having trouble with the ice-covered ladder we were forced to use.
I walked off and never went back.
Not far from this job, in Sloan Square, I worked for one of the world's leading shoe designers - he had a shop on the Square.
WE never quibbled about the price, but I finally refused to to work for him as he invariably kept me waiting for payment for over a year.
Tight as a duck's arse.
If you employed me you trusted me - if you weren't satisfied, you never employed me again.
I had to trust them - so they needed to trust me.Give me an honest working class family instead of an up-their-own-arse wealthy one any day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 02:48 PM

This we got from Jom - who by the way loves to be enraged:

"1: if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected " - Teribus

"Now decent employer "inspects" work in teh manner you suggest - if it is not done properly, the employee is not asked back" - Jom

I take it that under this scheme of things Jom that this decent employer you mentioned would still be expected to pay the "cleaner" who did not "clean"?

To demand, or to accept pay for work that has not been properly done is dishonest Jom - or doesn't that concept apply in your world?

As to "cleaners" driving about in Jags - I know of one who on leaving the Navy wrote a list of all the jobs he had been asked to do in the Navy - none seemed to have any use in "civilian life" and at the bottom of his list was the entry "Cleaning Heads and Bathrooms" - he started his own business first cleaning the toilets of his local (Pub)- that led to doing the same thing in others, he set up his own company and branched out into cleaning clubs and offices - ended up selling his company 15 years later for about £3 million - large Oaks from small acorns grow - amazing what hard work and application can do - eh Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 May 17 - 02:39 PM

I think I see what you meant Teribus. If I'm understanding your last post correctly, you only meant to attribute dignity, trust and responsibility to cleaners in the same way as to any other job, including teaching.

It's true that any job of any sort is for pay, not for fun. And any workers can be assessed (formally or informally) by those paying them. It's a two-way contract isn't it? You're right, and I'm sorry if your remarks were misconstrued.

My reason for introducing cleaning jobs into the education debate was to contrast the lack of stress, such as that engendered by Ofsted Inspections (which are the Devil's work, believe me) I was blissfully happy scrubbing away, while my teaching, though truly my vocation and extremely enjoyable, was made hell at times by the inordinate amount of forms, paperwork and snotty inexperienced inspectors breathing down my neck.

Any employer has the choice whether to be a snippy sod or a generous, kind and considerate person. The ironed shirt episode is an excellent example of the latter. I've been very lucky in that all the people I cleaned for were delightful, and did all they could to make my work enjoyable.
If I wasn't such an old crock nowadays, I'd be out with my cleaning gear cheerfully dusting and polishing. It would tone up my muscles, and give me some exercise.
And I don't mind being called Mrs Mopp! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 02:13 PM

"1: if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected "
Now decent employer "inspects" work in teh manner you suggest - if it is not done properly, the employee is not asked back
If you wexpect to inspect work you should be preapared to pay a reasonable rate for it
That is not the case with cleaning jobs or those in the catering trade or the hospitality industry - all notoriosly low-paid, crap conditions jobs
And they have to put up with shit of the type you spout about lazty, incompetent workers
To listen to you people, you'd think cleaners drove about in Jags
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 01:21 PM

DMcG it was the point of my response to Senoufou.

I think that you'd be utterly amazed at how similar our views are on this. I was rather disappointed at the inference that a "cleaners" job was free of accountability - it is a job that if performed in the absence of the owners of the property carries a great deal of responsibility and a great deal of trust.

On the "contract" thing - simplest and plainest is buying a pint - you as the customer or "client" put up your hard earned for a product - the licencee is responsible and accountable for providing you with a pint that is in good condition and drinkable. Such contracts are entered into and completed millions of times each day without a single word having to be put down on paper, does not make them any the lesser for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 01:09 PM

Eh up Steve, do you think he'd even get an invite !!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 17 - 01:06 PM

Senoufou (who can definitely speak for herself, though I wouldn't be surprised if she had decided to ignore this spat), was being self-deprecating and humorous when she made that remark about herself. It was not an invitation to some arrogant, overly-aggressive bully to cash in on it in order to ridicule the points she was making. You really haven't got a clue, have you? Jaysus, I'll bet you're a real wizz at dinner parties!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 12:57 PM

"Doesn't alter the fact that you were gratuitously rude and abrasive, to use Steve's most eloquent phrase."

Pray tell me in what way was it gratuitously rude and abrasive Raggy? Or are you just doing your little lapdog thing?

Here is the post and in reading it everybody should remember it was Senoufou herself who asked to be called Mrs Mopp (So that point should not appear in any of your reasoning):

"Believe me Mrs Mopp if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected and you would be both responsible and accountable for that cleaning being done to what I considered to be the required standard - you being paid would depend upon it." - Teribus

The component parts are:

1: if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected

2: you would be both responsible and accountable for that cleaning being done to what I considered to be the required standard

3: you being paid would depend upon it

Please detail points that are gratuitously rude

Please detail points that are abrasive.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 12:56 PM

Or even watching television.

Like many of my age I learnt roman numerals, surprisingly I do know people of my age who struggle with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 12:07 PM

Really? Well, I've no objection to people understanding how to find their way round the appendix of a book which uses Roman numerals, but I hope not too much time is spent trying to understand MDCCLXXXIII. If you get interested in old buildings you will learn it for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 May 17 - 12:01 PM

I understand from a former teacher that since 2014, Roman Numerals are compulsary learning under the current curriculum - seems fair enough to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 11:33 AM

the fact that the workers do not only have rights they too also have responsibilities and obligations, that was the point under discussion.

Perhaps for you it was, Teribus. However, if you think that the way my daughter and I behaved was driven by contracts and workers'/employers rights and obligations, I have to disillusion you.   Certainly a contract exists, but that is the mere starting point and to stop there would be a thin gruel of a way of viewing the world, to my mind. Still, we each choose how we want to see things.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 11:32 AM

"Jom you are always good at pointing up the obligations of the bosses and rights of the workers"
I am perfectly aware of workers responsibilities, aving been one for haldf a century - I am aso aware tat, should a worker not meet up to those responsibilities they would find themselves out of a job pretty sharpish - would that the same be said of the management
I've seen a number of workers dismissed for not doing their job - can never remember a manager meeting the same fate.
Responsibilities must coe with rights - yet scum like the Thatcher crowd systematically smashed those rights
The lazy British workman is a Tory myth - the average British worker is second to none for acquiring skills and dedicating themselves to it.
The only rights we are left with now is to accept what work we are given or else, despite the fact that all chances of planning your lives from the time of leaving school has long gone.
Once there were plumbers, or fitters, or carpenters, or electricians.... now there are only "workers or unemployed".
These "patriots" who salute the flag and despise the people whose work is essential to every single aspect of our lives make me sick
We can live without profiteers, investors and owners..... we wouldn't last a week without light or clean water or transport, or houses......
Profit is totally surplus to everyday needs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 11:17 AM

Doesn't alter the fact that you were gratuitously rude and abrasive, to use Steve's most eloquent phrase.

It is your usual way of responding so I am not at all surprised.

It merely serves to demonstrate once again what a thoroughly unpleasant person you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 10:35 AM

I am perfectly sure that Senoufou can speak for herself, just as I am perfectly sure that Senoufou hoisted onboard the point that I was making.

Now you tell me Shaw who was it that asked to be called Mrs Mopp and how me referring to the lady as Mrs Mopp could be termed a gratuitous insult?

Another example of you just thrashing about wildly looking for something to take offence at on someone else's behalf.

Jom you are always good at pointing up the obligations of the bosses and rights of the workers - not so keen on owning up to the fact that the workers do not only have rights they too also have responsibilities and obligations, that was the point under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 17 - 08:02 AM

You were gratuitously rude and abrasive to someone who is never remotely rude or abrasive here. Live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 08:00 AM

"Read the complete post before you jump in with both feet Shaw - same applies to you Jom."
I read the full post
Now how about you responding to mine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:58 AM

Ah, the problem being that the fact the shirt was not to be ironed does not fit into Teri's view of the things that matter, mainly his own opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:55 AM

Ever thought of taking an Anger Management Course Teriblossom, if anyone could benefit I'm sure you could.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:54 AM

Oh, I can cope quite happily with people who disagree with me being around.


Not that it matters in the slightest, but the shirt concerned was definitely not to be ironed. Take my word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:51 AM

Steve Shaw - 01 May 17 - 05:45 AM

"Mrs Mopp indeed. Senoufou has the good grace and dignity to ignore that gratuitous insult. Bet that annoyed him."

WHAT gratuitous insult Shaw? Merely acceding to Senoufou's request - but in case you missed it:


Senoufou - 29 Apr 17 - 02:43 PM

"Just call me Mrs Mopp!"

Read the complete post before you jump in with both feet Shaw - same applies to you Jom.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:44 AM

Shouting as well, quelle surprise.

Ignore him DMcG he may go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:40 AM

"Merely pointed out that ALL jobs have responsibilities where the person performing that job is accountable to the person paying them to do that job for doing it properly"
That "properly" needs to be accompanied by the rigght of an eployee to be suitably paid for the work done and suitable conditions
Too often not the case with domestic workers and those in the catering trade who are employed because of the wages they are forced to accept ant the conditions under which they are required to work
The employer-employee relationship has to be one in which both have a say
Not the case with these occupations
Doesn't even begin to touch on your pomposity ("Mrs Mopp") - patronisingly arrogant in the extreme, and typical of many employers in these occupations.
That smacks of a master/slave relationship
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 17 - 07:29 AM

Glad to see that all those standing to the left have, as usual, completely missed the point.

Senoufou: A cleaning job that was "stress free", that had no responsibilities/accountability and no standard to be met as there were no inspections.

Teribus: Merely pointed out that ALL jobs have responsibilities where the person performing that job is accountable to the person paying them to do that job for doing it properly and that a person's work can be subject to inspection at any time by the person paying them to do that job and it is the latter's requirements and standards that have to be met.

DmcG - Legally any "contract" is viewed as being an arrangement entered into by two reasonable parties. In the case you used to illustrate your point my view would in all probability be the same as the line taken by your daughter, the actions of the Laundry service having realised the error was correct and they are to be commended for it. Apart from that a "Non-Iron" shirt means that "you do not have to iron it" IT DOES NOT MEAN that the shirt CANNOT or even MUST NOT be ironed.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 17 - 05:45 AM

And the bad-tempered, belligerent, blustering and bullying nature of his posts speaks volumes about his own defective education. Mrs Mopp indeed. Senoufou has the good grace and dignity to ignore that gratuitous insult. Bet that annoyed him.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 17 - 05:13 AM

"It is interesting to see people's differing attitudes"

Very true DmcG, one a bad tempered, belligerent, blustering bully, the other a warm, generous, rational, intelligent, caring individual.

I

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 17 - 05:01 AM

Believe me Mrs Mopp if I was paying you to clean for me your work would be inspected and you would be both responsible and accountable for that cleaning being done to what I considered to be the required standard - you being paid would depend upon it.

...
If a private individual engages a cleaner, they of course have every right to inspect the work afterwards and to ensure it meets their standards. In all the little jobs like this I've had, I'm sure the person employing me had a look, and they were obviously satisfied as I never had any complaints, in fact the friends of the clients wanted me to 'do' for them as well. But there was nothing 'official' about it, and no forms to fill in etc. or any pressure, except to get the job done in the time allotted.



It is interesting to see people's differing attitudes. We don't have a cleaner, but for a few years we have handed over all the ironing to a local two-person business. (We can have long and interesting debates about the politics another time).

Anyway, on one occasion a few months into the arrangement my daughter answered the door to find them standing very nervously because they had started to iron a non-iron shirt and the collar was damaged. Please could they replace it?

My daughters response:   She knew me far better than they did so
a) I would never notice
b) if I did notice, I wouldn't care
c) It was my fault for sending a non-iron shirt in the first place and if needs be she would make that quite plain to me.
d) so no, they should not dream of replacing it.

And I agree with her. As far as I am concerned, we are in a mutually agreeable arrangement and they are not servants. They have every right to be treated with respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 May 17 - 04:31 AM

It's true Jim that the pay is abysmal for cleaning in the public sector. My poor husband gets a measly £7.50 an hour. He works very awkward hours (2pm - 9pm) and has to go to two different sites. He often has to wipe excrement from the walls of the school toilets and mop up wee from the floor. It's a secondary school, and the students should know better, but he's too timid to complain. They're finding it hard to get cleaners who will stay. Any young folk only last a week.
However, he seems to adore the job, mainly because everyone loves him and he feels very secure there. But it could be seen as exploitation in a way...