BS: Choice of education

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:10 AM

"The reality is that life is not fair and people are not equal, "
No
The reality is that that is written into the system we live under and while people like you are around, that will never change
The underlying an open arrogance in virtually everything you post only serves to act as an illustration of that fact
If you had actually achieved anything with your own life and had any talents or achievements worth boasting about, I have little doubt you would have trumpeted them from the rooftops before now
As you haven't you are apparently no more than a cap-doffer to your "betters" m'lud (exits right)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:32 AM

'...life is not fair and people are not equal...'

People may differ, but are equal in value and should have equal opportunities and rights.

Life not being fair is generally due to the indifference and arrogance of the privileged elite towards the disadvantaged.

I have taught many pupils who had very little English at first. Most of them proved to be extremely attentive, hard-working and quick to learn. They valued the education they were given, and profited by it enormously. They were never a problem to me as their teacher. I enjoyed finding materials and strategies to help them learn English.

Where I lived as a child in West London there were huge numbers of Pakistani folk, and their children came to school with us all. So it's not a new thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 05:45 AM

I asked you to tell me which degrees are the bullshit ones but you've evaded the question. Please also let me have your solution to the issue of teaching children whose first language is other than English. And, since time immemorial, universities and prospective employers have moaned and groaned about the standards of literacy and numeracy of children not only coming from "basic education" but also from sixth forms and even, in the case of some employers, from universities. 'Twas ever thus, and, once again, you appear to be harking back to a golden age when such complaints weren't made. If you have a point to make about what you perceive to be falling levels of literacy and numeracy, I suggest you resort to solid facts and figures, not to Daily Mail-tinged vague whinings from "it was never like this in my day" Mike Ashley types who haven't a clue what they're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 09:56 AM

I take it that your last was aimed at me Raggy. What does it feel like to have been constantly hammered in discussion by, as you put it - "an uneducated oaf." with "No knowledge or understanding of education"

"An uneducated oaf.", who on the subject of WWI you said this of:

"You are obviously interested in the subject and far more knowledgeable than some others on this forum."

As someone who openly boasts of their total irresponsibility, you are the last person I would take any notice of on any subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:27 AM

I still think my statement was correct, you do know more about WW1 than SOME on this forum.

The fact you are also blinkered, arrogant, blustering and a bully makes you an oaf.

The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf.

Simples.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:54 AM

People may differ, but are equal in value and should have equal opportunities and rights.

Very true people are different and generally they do have equal opportunities and rights. Take myself and Kevin Keegan for example I had equal opportunities and rights to become a professional footballer. Only thing was you see Senoufou Kev and I were different - he had the talent and interest required I did not. I could apply the same differential to create a massive list where I had equal opportunity and equal rights but lacked the skill, application and dedication to carry it through. What I did end up doing, I did well and was suitably financially rewarded for doing something that had immense job satisfaction, but not everyone could have done it (7 out of 10 fail at the first hurdle - but all had the exact same opportunity and right to try)

"Life not being fair is generally due to the indifference and arrogance of the privileged elite towards the disadvantaged."

That inherited chip on your shoulder is showing again. Life is not fair Senoufou purely through circumstance - nothing whatsoever to do with "indifference", "arrogance" or any "privileged elite". No-one but no-one had humbler or a more disadvantaged childhood and upbringing than Andrew Carnegie. In personal endeavour and success he outshone any "privileged elite" in the USA and he started with NOTHING. Another Scot who did the same in an entirely different field was Robert Burns. There are far, far too many examples of people making a success of their lives from humble and disadvantaged beginnings for your case to hold water, but the message must be that the individual has to work for it - no-one is ever going to hand it to you on a platter.

I have taught many pupils who had very little English at first. Most of them proved to be extremely attentive, hard-working and quick to learn. They valued the education they were given, and profited by it enormously. They were never a problem to me as their teacher. I enjoyed finding materials and strategies to help them learn English.

Demonstrates the point I was making admirably - how much further would your pupils have got had you not first had to overcome their lack of English? They also probably were encouraged by their parents and it is no doubt from them that they were taught their respect for education and how vitally important it was for them. While you were enjoying finding materials and strategies to help them learn English, what were the pupils in your class who already had a good command of the English language doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:00 AM

"The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf." - Raggy

OK then Raggy tell us what the FACTS are in relation to my education.

To my certain knowledge they will prove to be incorrect assumptions on your part - not facts at all - and you have got the brass-neck to witter on about "blinkered, arrogant, blustering"!!!

What odds Raggy comes back with S.F.A.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:08 AM

Rubbisth, T - total rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:09 AM

oh go on then ............ just for you ...... sweet Fanny Adams


Now, go on terikins, tell us all about your higher education.


What odds that terikins comes back with S.F.A

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:19 AM

The Victorians imposed arbitrary school subject boundaries and they've stuck largely because universities have dictated from above what they expect schools to churn out. There's a lot more to a well-rounded education than simply a thorough grounding in a "subject." Any subject taken at school or university, given good teaching, will equip students with study skills (i.e., acquiring a lust for knowledge, knowing how to gather, evaluate and interpret information and developing critical thinking) that will serve well across artificial subject lines. Over and above that, we need specialisms, hopefully achieved by getting students enthusiastic about particular fields of endeavour.

When I took Latin at school I thought it was a bullshit subject. Not so. It was the savour in my schooling right up to the time I finished teacher training. Have I "used" Latin? Of course I have. I "use" it all the time. It informs the way I write and understand my own language for a start (helps with those pesky plant names too). I spent weeks doing a palaeobotany course. We studied pollen deposits right from the end of the last glaciation in order to glean the flora of the time and we collected Jurassic fossil gymnosperms, horsetails and ginkgos from the cliffs between Scarborough and Whitby. Have I used that? Well I don't talk about it much, but at the time it fired my imagination for many other aspects of biological science. We did have an amazing teacher. I spent a week studying red campion variability at Malham Tarn. I was never going to turn the deserts green doing that but the real science in that study was incalculable. A woman who was in my university class in 1969 still works at Malham Tarn Field Centre, running courses on various environmental matters. There are no bullshit subjects and no bullshit degrees. There's good education, which means using your skills to go out and grab knowledge for yourself rather than sit there waiting for someone to pour it over you, like that chemistry "teacher" I mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:29 AM

Ehmmm you did write this didn't you Raggy - "The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf."

You referred to "The fact" - so it is up to you to tell us what "The facts" are with regard to my education.

Just dying to see how much of this that you get wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:36 AM

Evasion as I expected

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 12:47 PM

"Very true people are different and generally they do have equal opportunities and rights. "
Absolute nonsense
A decent education depends entirely on where you live, what kind of schools are in the locality, the financial situation of those schools and - as far as further education is concerned - your family's income.
What world are you living in?
The introduction of University fees has put higher education out of reach of most working families
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 03:21 PM

I wasn't aware that I had an 'inherited chip on my shoulder' Teribus.

I was perfectly capable as a teacher of ensuring that all the pupils in my class were profiting from their lessons. In any class, there is always a selection of different abilities, behaviours, language competence, special needs and so on. I loved all these challenges and I don't think any individuals suffered from my spending time with the ESL students, or with any other group. Believe me, all my pupils were kept hard at it with meaningful work!

I do see your point about it being the students' responsibility to take full advantage of the educational opportunities on offer. But you can't deny that there is a huge difference in standards and a disparity between schools. And one can actually buy a better education for your children if you have the money. That just isn't fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:31 PM

What evasion Raggy?

You stated facts and you were asked to produce them - now what are they? Or don't you know? If that is the case then you coming out with the following - "The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf." - making statements of such astounding certainty and wittering on about things that you have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever, makes you out to be the biggest prat in creation.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:37 PM

Your shoulders sound fine Senofou. A teacher Teribus may have been referring to, could have been a screamer from his past.
My youngest is in a special program to help him find his identity and confidence that includes professionals dedicated to individual support. We are hoping this opportunity proves beneficial.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 01:47 AM

"My youngest is in a special program to help him ......"

Different thing entirely Donuel - please accept my sincere hopes and wishes that that programme is beneficial to him.

"Life not being fair is generally due to the indifference and arrogance of the privileged elite towards the disadvantaged." - Senoufou

Is a typical UK "socialist" whining myth - for them anything wrong in their lives always has to be someone else's fault. As stated in my previous post - There are far, far too many examples of people making a success of their lives from humble and disadvantaged beginnings for your case to hold water, but the message must be that the individual has to work for it - no-one is ever going to hand it to you on a platter.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 03:10 AM

Yet more evasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 03:20 AM

But Teribus, the rich and privileged HAVE been handed stuff on a platter haven't they? I agree one has to work for one's success, but things are made much more difficult (and require far more input and determination) if one is starting from relative poverty and deprivation.

I am not 'typical' particularly. (In fact, I'd say I was quite unusual in several ways!) I'm not actually a Socialist, I vote Conservative. And I hope I don't 'whine'.

I wonder if you have ever met young people from very poor districts, with bad housing and with parent/s on an extremely low income or Benefits? Can you imagine being talented or gifted, with a high intelligence, trying to study in such an environment?
My father did so, and it was admirable. But he was exceptionally determined and ferociously strong-minded. Most youngsters would bow to the ethos of their home and district. They're not all Billy Elliots!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 03:52 AM

Awwwww c'mon Raggy, why not share "your facts" with us?

Good reason he doesn't folks - they don't exist. Raggy assumed and presented his assumptions as fact. Once more Raggy opens his mouth and shoves both feet in - talking and making statements from a standpoint of pure ignorance - 100% "Made-Up-Shit".

"The fact you have little formal education makes you an uneducated oaf."

Your words NUMBNUTS - now back 'em up - WHAT FACT? (Bet he ducks it again)

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:04 AM

Bet you don't enlighten us as to your vast all conquering educational achievements.

Just keep arguing petty semantics terikins, don't worry though, we know you for what you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:27 AM

Education in Britain at present makes the title of this thread a misnomer - there is no choice
One of the missing ingredients is incentive - education for what - the stacking of shelves in Sainsburys people are now forced into because there is nothing else?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:29 AM

Speaking of ducking, Teribus, I'm still waiting for your list of bullshit degrees.

I'm surprised, Senoufou. I can't recall your ever making a Tory-sounding comment! Voting other than Tory doesn't necessarily make you a socialist, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:40 AM

"the rich and privileged HAVE been handed stuff on a platter haven't they?"

WHAT have they been handed on a platter?

WHO is it you define as being "the rich and privelged"? If you are talking of the "aristocracy" Senoufou I think that the fact of the matter is that they are a dying breed and have been for some considerable time now

The Rich - well let me see now Victoria and David Beckham are undoubtedly rich - So please Senoufou tell us all what they as individuals were handed on a platter. My understanding is that they both individually worked extremely hard to get to where they are today, and they continue to do so.

The list of the 10 richest people in the UK contains only two people who inherited their wealth and because of that they have never had to "work" so have never robbed anybody of any opportunity, the remaining eight have all been "self-made-men" (Some of remarkably little education Raggy) who were successful entirely through their own efforts - who were handed nothing on a platter.

"I wonder if you have ever met young people from very poor districts, with bad housing and with parent/s on an extremely low income or Benefits? Can you imagine being talented or gifted, with a high intelligence, trying to study in such an environment?"

Grew up with them, went to school with them, worked with them. Generally we all had two parents, and they instilled in us the importance, value and worth of a good education - we experienced no particular hardship in studying, apart, in my case, from my younger sister incessantly playing Beatles records that affected me in as much as I grew to absolutely detest and hate them but yet by some process of osmosis I am still word perfect in most of them. Pity you heeded your father's take on Benenden - he was wrong - when once in a lifetime opportunities arise they should be seen for what they are and should be taken. You would have thrived there and thoroughly enjoyed yourself - if not you could have gone home - nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 05:26 AM

O teribe (please note the Latin vocative case), I'm not even going to respond to your tirade. We each have our opinions, and that's quite all right.

Haha Steve, yes, I'm a closet Conservative! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 07:52 AM

"Victoria and David Beckham"
Are unlikely to ever be running the country - that's not to say they wouldn't make a beter job of it though !!
"WHAT have they been handed on a platter?"
The privileges that society awards the wealthy on the basis that they have more of I right to them than those who actually do the work
As dodgy an your unqualified claims are on inherited wealth, it is only a side-issue anyway
The real point is that rights like health, security and position are bought and exclude those who are not wealthy.
The fact that someone can buy themselves to the top of the tree doesn't mean they are fittest for the position in society they purchase - the world is learning that at present by hoping with the most dangerous world leader ever to occupy that position.
Is there a difference between spending your youth listening to Beatles records and getting pissed up and throwing your knickers in the air at Debs coming out parties ?
The outcome is VERY DIFFERENT for those involved
THE GREAT AND THE GOOD
Your cap-doffing becomes more and more entertaining
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 08:15 AM

You'd win your bet Raggy, but then I am not the complete and utter stranger claiming to know for a fact what education anybody had - That you eejit is you.

So what facts about me do you know Raggy, I am dying to hear (By the way if you are relying on anything said by your pal Jom - you will be well off the mark).

What tirade Senoufou?? You are the one making broadbrush general statements to support typically left-wing stereotypes that have little or no bearing on what is being discussed. The fact that you appear unable to argue your case when challenged has got nothing to do with me. As "Teribus" has no connection whatsoever to Latin I fail to see the point in noting the Latin vocative case of the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 08:24 AM

Typical response from Mr Angry.

Senoufou is possibly the most gentle person on this site, judging by her posts, but even that doesn't stop the hectoring, blustering bully having a go at her.

Appalling behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 09:48 AM

What's up Raggy still cannot quite steel yourself to having to openly admit that you have got no idea whatsoever as to where I was educated or the level to which I was educated, which of course would make your "fact" nothing of the sort.

Who by the way is "having at go at" who?

Mind you it would appear that your sort of discussion revolves around you making a whole load of shit up, no matter how outrageous, and then have all your gormless pals agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 09:52 AM

"What tirade Senoufou?? You are the one making broadbrush general statements to support typically left-wing stereotypes that have little or no bearing on what is being discussed. The fact that you appear unable to argue your case when challenged has got nothing to do with me. As "Teribus" has no connection whatsoever to Latin I fail to see the point in noting the Latin vocative case of the word"
(Teribus 22.04.17 08.15 AM)

I suppose I must have made up this outrageous shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 01:23 PM

As yiu're hectoring Raggytash about the nature of your educational qualifications, allow me to re-hector you. The list of bullshit degrees, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 04:24 AM

A list of "bullshit Degrees" that have no useful or practical application - if you don't mind Shaw.

Tirade Shaggy? I was responding to Senoufou's accusation - surely I am allowed to do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 04:40 AM

It was senofou herself who described your words as a tirade not I.

I agree with her that your reaction was way over the top, but then again I'm used to your bullying, hectoring style, it doesn't bother me one iota, but a little decorum may be in order with other posters.


Ever thought of taking an Anger Management course.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:00 AM

So which are the bullshit ones? Do you perhaps believe in training only and not in education? How evasive can you get!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:08 AM

Why I'm asking - a reminder:

"Another idiotic belief is that everybody has to go to University. WTF for? Most go to study bullshit degrees that lead nowhere and have no purpose - waste of time and resources." (Teribus, 20 April)

All I want to know is which degrees are the bullshit ones!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:11 AM

"surely I am allowed to do that?"
Perhaps if you didn't abuse people and try to talk down to them you might have something to say
You hector everybody and we all know what happened to him - he got dragged by his heels behind a chariot (get sombody to look it up for you)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:42 AM

Don't get him going on Hector, Jim, or else we'll be getting a two-year spat about who was well-led in the Boer Wars...

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 07:10 AM

The child of a friend got a phd in history three years ago. The best work he's been able to find so far is driving a forklift in a grocery store warehouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 07:56 AM

But he's contributed well to the sum total of human wisdom, and the study and research skills he's acquired will influence him, and the people close to him, to the good for the rest of their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Stu
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:11 AM

"The best work he's been able to find so far is driving a forklift in a grocery store warehouse."

What's wrong with that job?

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:21 AM

I left grammar school in 1964 with just 5 O Levels, because I failed all my A levels. I preferred playing guitar in my band which was infinitely more fun than studying. However, I did eventually pass Institute of Chartered Accountants' part 1 Final exams but became time barred before retaking part 2 for the 3rd time I think it was - so that gives me roughly 8 A* passes at A level by 2017 standards!!

I have been out of work for no more than 3 weeks in total since September 1964!
University is a complete waste of time for the majority of wasters there.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:26 AM

A degree course in "Urban Dancing"

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:43 AM

So degrees in performing arts are useless, are they? All of them? What about degrees at the Royal College of Music?

What about degrees in history? Archaeology? Religious studies? English literature? Politics? Should we allow only degrees that industrialists have decided are "useful?"

Philistine!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:59 AM

"What's wrong with that job?"
Lousy pay, crap job, undemanding and not how most people would choose to spend their day, especially if they had a trade they could no longer find work in.
As a skilled electrician with fifty 45 years experience, I'd be pissed pissed off if I was told I would have my benefits withdrawn if I didn't take it - and I certainly couldn't support a family on the wages it would bring in.
Wonder how you would feel as a trained scientist!!
Apart from that, nothing much
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 09:39 AM

I'm very glad I took up accountancy, so never been on the benefits scrounge!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 09:44 AM

I am surprised that someone who maintains he has been involved in folk music for many years should choose a degree that includes performing as one that is useless.

In taking such a degree the student will learn not only performing of various types of dance, but research, choreography, studio skills and events management.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 09:47 AM

Well bully for you Bongo. Well done, hurray, take a gold star and give out the inkwells.

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 10:03 AM

What's wrong with that job?

Twenty years of schoolin'
And they put you on the day shift

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 10:48 AM

I will raggetytashety!!

Subject: RE: BS: Choice of education
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 10:52 AM

Sorry Shaggy but your pal Shaw asked me for an example of a "Bullshit Degree" course that was of neither use nor ornament - I think a Degree in Urban Dancing fits the bill fairly well.

The Urban Dictionary has two definitions for the term Urban Dancing:

1: "to move with unhindered grace around an area with the presence of another enjoying the same activity."

2: "Humping someone in public"

Now you tell me of what benefit a degree in such a subject would be and whether, or not, the holder of such a degree would ever recoup the investment made in obtaining it - As a practitioner of 1, I'd say with difficulty, applying the knowledge obtained studying 2, you'd probably be debt free inside of six months.

People were conned into believing that a university degree - ANY university degree would increase your earning potential - IT DOESN'T, but hundreds of thousands swallowed the lie and have ended up in debt because of it.