 sj |
||
|
||
BS:Mass murder of defenceless civilians-Korea 1951
|
|
|
Subject: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jack Campin Date: 17 Apr 17 - 07:23 PM From the UN's archives. Telegram from North Korea describing the American atrocities of January 1951: PDF of translation from Russian Makes everything Assad has been accused of look pretty small time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Apr 17 - 09:13 PM I gotta say, Jack, that posts from you and from Jim Carroll often seem to have the word "agitprop" written all over them. For those of you who haven't read Jack's PDF, it's a cable from the Korean People's Republic about the bombing of Pyongyang on 3 January 1951 by 82 B-17 Flying Fortresses of the US Air Force. And yes, it is profuse with the adjectives of propaganda - but it tells the truth. Still (as always), Jack has a good point. In March 2015, the Washington Post ran an article titled, "The U.S. war crime North Korea won't forget":
Blaine Harden, a former Post reporter, is the author of the book "The Great Leader and the Fighter Pilot." North Korea cheered this month when a man with a knife and a history of violent behavior slashed the face of Mark Lippert, the U.S. ambassador to South Korea. The attack in Seoul was "a knife shower of justice," North Korea said, praising it as "deserved punishment for warmonger United States." If that sounds mean-spirited, consider this: For years, North Korea has taught schoolchildren to bayonet effigies of U.S. soldiers. Under its young dictator, Kim Jong Un, the government has suggested it was prepared to nuke Washington, Austin and Southern California. More than 40 years ago, Kim Il Sung, the "Great Leader" who founded the family dictatorship that rules North Korea, said there was "no secret" about his country's behavior: "What is most important in our preparations [for war] is to educate all the people to hate U.S. imperialism." Where does the hate come from? Much of it is cooked up daily in Pyongyang. Like all dictatorial regimes, the Kim family dynasty needs an endless existential struggle against a fearsome enemy. Such a threat rationalizes massive military spending and excuses decades of privation, while keeping dissenting mouths shut and political prisons open. The hate, though, is not all manufactured. It is rooted in a fact-based narrative, one that North Korea obsessively remembers and the United States blithely forgets. The story dates to the early 1950s, when the U.S. Air Force, in response to the North Korean invasion that started the Korean War, bombed and napalmed cities, towns and villages across the North. It was mostly easy pickings for the Air Force, whose B-29s faced little or no opposition on many missions. The bombing was long, leisurely and merciless, even by the assessment of America's own leaders. "Over a period of three years or so, we killed off — what — 20 percent of the population," Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command during the Korean War, told the Office of Air Force History in 1984. Dean Rusk, a supporter of the war and later secretary of state, said the United States bombed "everything that moved in North Korea, every brick standing on top of another." After running low on urban targets, U.S. bombers destroyed hydroelectric and irrigation dams in the later stages of the war, flooding farmland and destroying crops. Although the ferocity of the bombing was criticized as racist and unjustified elsewhere in the world, it was never a big story back home. U.S. press coverage of the air war focused, instead, on "MiG alley," a narrow patch of North Korea near the Chinese border. There, in the world's first jet-powered aerial war, American fighter pilots competed against each other to shoot down five or more Soviet-made fighters and become "aces." War reporters rarely mentioned civilian casualties from U.S. carpet-bombing. It is perhaps the most forgotten part of a forgotten war. The Kims, though, have kept memories of the war and the bombing terrifyingly fresh. North Korean state media dress up the historical record in a Big Lie, claiming that Americans and South Korea sneakily started the Korean War and that Kim Il Sung brilliantly won it against overwhelming odds. (The Chinese don't get much credit for fighting the United States to a draw.) State media warn that, sooner or later, the Americans will strike again. "It is still the 1950s in North Korea and the conflict with South Korea and the United States is still going on," says Kathryn Weathersby, a scholar of the Korean War. "People in the North feel backed into a corner and threatened." There is real value in understanding this paranoid mind-set. It puts the calculated belligerence of the Kim family into context. It also undermines the notion that North Korea is merely a nut-case state. Since World War II, the United States has engaged in an almost unbroken chain of major and minor wars in distant and poorly understood countries. Yet for a meddlesome superpower that claims the democratic high ground, it can sometimes be shockingly incurious and self-absorbed. In the case of the bombing of North Korea, its people never really became conscious of a major war crime committed in their name. Paying attention in a democracy is a moral obligation. It is also a way to avoid repeating immoral mistakes. And if North Korea ever does change, if the Kim family were overthrown or were to voluntarily loosen its chokehold on information, a U.S. apology for the bombing could help dispel 65 years of hate. It's easy to scapegoat North Korea, because the Kim family dynasty has certainly not made North Korea into a model citizen of the world. As the Post article says, "Much of it is cooked up daily in Pyongyang. Like all dictatorial regimes, the Kim family dynasty needs an endless existential struggle against a fearsome enemy. Such a threat rationalizes massive military spending and excuses decades of privation, while keeping dissenting mouths shut and political prisons open." But there is good reason for most third-world nations to view the United States as villain. The "Ugly American" still exists. As a pacifist, I view any bombing of any city as barbaric. Total-destruction bombing of cities became matter-of-course during World War II, and it's easy to think nowadays of such bombings as commonplace inconveniences of war. But the total destruction of any city is still barbaric, no matter if it's done by the "good guys" or the "bad guys." So, although I question the agitprop tone of Jack's thread and post, I have to agree with him - although I'd say it more gently. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Rapparee Date: 17 Apr 17 - 10:02 PM https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP10.HTM http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2017/02/10/Analyst-North-Korea-executed-purged-thousands-after-Jang-Song-Thaek-killed/6921486736858/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/preventing-a-massacre-in-north-koreas-gulags/2014/07/25/b9d6a3fe-1284-11e4-9285-4243a40ddc97_story.html?utm_term=.776f902166d6 https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/KW-atrocities-Report.pdf |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Apr 17 - 10:04 PM And so, Rap, do you have an opinion on this, or are you just showing off your ability to copy-paste URLs? It's easy to counter URLs with URLs, but where's the truth, and why do you think it's true? -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Apr 17 - 01:02 AM I don't think anyone is in favour of killing defenceless civilians. However once the genie is out of the bottle and war is declared, such things happen. Only a fool or liar would pretend otherwise. In the post war period , it did seem that all a country 's leader had to do was prove they were a big enough bastard to attract major military back up from Russia or America. You paid your money you took your choice. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Teribus Date: 18 Apr 17 - 02:10 AM Joe, those who chose war over peace have to accept that that decision can attract certain consequences. The North set out with a deliberate plan to attack and invade the South and they did that with the full knowledge and support of both PRC & the USSR. The war, the chosen action of the North and it's supporters resulted in ~2.5 million deaths. Up until the arrival of "volunteer" units of the Chinese Army in the war the bombing policy had been strictly military targets only, after their intervention it changed - things do in time of war - large centres of population also happen to contain main transport hubs and central administrative infrastructure vital for the mass movement of troops and the supplies that they need. Was it the correct decision? Ask the people of South Korea, it was after all they who would have been coerced into the joys of rule by the Kim dynasty had the UN failed to protect them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:49 AM Teribus, remember that Korea was conquered and cruelly occupied by Japan, then divided after the war by the US and the Soviets. They fought to contest a division of their own country that was brought about by external powers. And yet you claim that North Korea got what they deserved by opposing that division. I don't think so. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:23 AM Draw a line down the middle of a country and you need to set up a body-bag industry that will last for generations - that is the lesson of history the post Empire world has never taken in Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Stu Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:26 AM "Joe, those who chose war over peace have to accept that that decision can attract certain consequences" Especially for innocent people who have very little or no control over what their leaders so. Leaders who don't care about the death and suffering they inflict on others or others inflict on their populations. There is a moral issue here that being at war does not render irrelevant, but rather should guide how a nation approaches conflict. In this case, we all have a duty to oppose the mass murder of civilians and not to blame the victims for the actions of the few. Is killing 20% of a civilian population because of the actions of a political and military elite justifiable? For my part, nothing justifies the wilful murder of innocents in war or otherwise. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:40 AM However once the genie is out of the bottle and war is declared, such things happen. Only a fool or liar would pretend otherwise. Of course these days nobody seems to bother about actually declaring war, they just attack without any warning, like the Japanese did at Pearl Harbour. It should never be forgotten that in the undeclared and illegal war against Vietnam the Americans killed far more civilians than have died in Syria, and used chemical weapons that caused horibble damage to generations of Vietnamese, which is continuing to this day. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:26 AM Is there really anything new about the mass murder of defenseless civilians? Is there science that provides answers for this recurring phenomenon? Yes there is. Until this knowledge is understood by the majority of the world and used as a tool/weapon against senseless holocaust, we are all prey to the next lie, rumor and hate scare. This knowledge is not the detailed understanding of a holocaust event. It is far more simple than that. I will not scold a soul for what they know. Knowledge is still the key. Congratulations all for taking the first step by asking the questions. Sincerely Don -warning pre-emptively against the next fake "Pueblo" incident- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Teribus Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:45 AM Number of points here folks that you seem to have missed: "those who chose war over peace have to accept that that decision can attract certain consequences" Obviously Joe & Stu think that in stating "Those who chose war over peace" I was referring to innocent people - I WAS NOT - it is plain enough in English I was referring to Those who chose war over peace - In the case of the Korean War those people were Kim Il-sung, Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin - They after all prepared and planned for the damn thing for the best part of three years. The Kim dynasty does not give a fig for the people of Korea - North or South of the DMZ so Joe IF you think it would have been right to allow Kim Il-sung's aggression to stand then all I can say is that you are a complete and utterly heartless and inhumane fuckin' idiot considering the degree of totally needless privations and horrendous suffering that have been endured by the people of North Korea under their rule. Only the people of North Korea can rid themselves of the regime that has enslaved them in their "workers paradise" - note no communists or socialists will criticise the regime - now why is that? Is that the sort of "equality" you seek? Similarly the "Palestinian" Leaders do not give a hoot about the "Palestinians" as long as the game stays where it is now THEY get to share out the billions in aid without having to do anything - money for old rope. Perhaps one of our pro-Palestinian forum members can explain to us all why President Mahmoud Abbas personally should receive a tax on every single packet of cigarettes and tobacco sold in the West Bank instead of that tax being paid into their Treasury? I also think he gets some sort of rake-off from every bag of cement as well. Unfortunately, once you have gone to war, your first concern is to protect your own population and your own troops, you do that by making the war as short as possible and by defeating and expelling enemy forces from your territory. To do that you have to attack, degrade and destroy your enemies means of waging war - in doing all that people die, that is the reality of war. Alternatively, if attacked you could just immediately surrender then live with the consequences no matter how horrific. Tell me Stu in what war were 20% of the civilian population killed? Certainly not the Korean War (Population of the Korean Peninsula in 1951 was something in the order of 29.6 million people) Where total casualties reached 2.5 million. I think that the closest to your 20% would be the total deaths military and civilian suffered by the Poles during the Second World War which was somewhere around 17%, the Soviets suffered around 13.7% military and civilian deaths. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Apr 17 - 10:14 AM "The Kim dynasty does not give a fig for the people of Korea Neither do you, or any other people, from your racist rant Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Stu Date: 18 Apr 17 - 11:10 AM Terbius: Read the original post for the 20% of population killed ref, if you can be arsed. "Unfortunately, once you have gone to war, your first concern is to protect your own population and your own troops" This isn't the case though, as we know. The leaders of N. Korea couldn't give a stuff about the suffering of their population, so the moral imperative is with the opposing side to ensure as few innocents are killed as possible. Otherwise, what distinguishes our leaders from theirs? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Apr 17 - 11:28 AM We now live in a world totally dependent on our getting on with our neghbours, both for peace and for trade, so "our own population" has to be humanity as a whole if we are to survive as a species. However Mao and Stalin regarded their people, those who they replaced cared even less The "Soviet Gulags" were long in existence before the Bolsheviks took power. Russia was a number of semi-feudal States run by a family who regarded their subjects with less interest than they did their animals - a peasant was replaceable, a good horse was not. The Russian people had two alternatives, stay in a war that was slaughtering millions or take another road Whatever the mistakes and betrayals - those countries moved from feudal repressive states to world leaders, despite a civil war and another world war China was the same - go read William Hinton's, 'Fan Shen' to see how well off the peasants were under feudalism Much of what went wrong can be traced back to outside interference - as Churchill and others put it so eloquently "New Germany (under Hitler) will serve as a barrier to the threat of Bolshevism" Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: robomatic Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:02 PM Communism in the Soviet Union and Mao's China added a new misery hitherto impossible for the feudal states they supposedly improved upon. The phenomenon of mind control. Check out "Darkness at Noon" by Koestler. Or the to-the-point comment of Reinaldo Arenas:"although both give you a kick in the ass, in the communist system you have to applaud, while in the capitalist system you can scream." Don't forget that the Communists under the name of Bolsheviks or People's Army took over by force from actual Democratic / Socialist revolutionaries, and under them misery and death was far greater than under the feudal societies that came from the Nineteenth Century. Think of the body counts from the mass starvation imposed Under Stalin, Mao, and Kim. They run easily into the double digits of millions. It is incredibly diversionary to put the dead under warfare as anything close to the incredible waste of one's own population as occurred under Communism purely for its own continuance. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 17 - 03:09 PM Teribus, you say, "The Kim dynasty does not give a fig for the people of Korea." Nonetheless, according to your logic, the US was justified in killing hundreds of thousands of those Korean people that the Kim dynasty doesn't care about, either. I don't buy that. The destruction of a city of civilians by bombing, is a crime against humanity. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Greg F. Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:10 PM "Crime against humanity"? Unless, of course, its the untold thousands of civilians killed by the U.S. in Iraq under the auspices of Geo. W. Bush. Or, unless its the thousands of Palestinians killed by the Israeli government. Or, unless...............oh, never mind. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Apr 17 - 04:36 PM Unfortunately, once you have gone to war, your first concern is to protect your own population and your own troops, you do that by making the war as short as possible and by defeating and expelling enemy forces from your territory. This must always be carried out in a way that minimises death and injury to non-combatants. Failure to attempt to observe that is a war crime, recognised as such by law, though rarely dealt with as such in the case of those on the winning side. Incidentally I'm not sure when the UK has in the course of its existence been engaged in a war that involved "expelling enemy forces from your territory", apart arguably from the Falklands. As for the USA the last time would have been in the American Revolution. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Teribus Date: 18 Apr 17 - 05:55 PM "This isn't the case though"???? Are you kidding Stu? "what distinguishes our leaders from theirs?" A little thing called exercising the inalienable right of self-defence Stu. North Korean plotted and planned their aggressive invasion of South Korea with the PRC & the USSR for three years. It was the United Nations that responded. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Teribus Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:02 PM "This must always be carried out in a way that minimises death and injury to non-combatants." Really Kevin? All sounds very nice but could you perhaps explain how this is realistically achieved in time of war? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Teribus Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:12 PM Joe in time of war to protect your own civilians (In the case of the Korean War the citizens of South Korea) the UN were perfectly justified in December 1951 shifting the focus of their strategic bombing policy to reflect hitting targets inside North Korea that would reduce the ability of the North to move hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops through their country and down into South Korea. That meant hitting airfields, transport hubs, storage facilities, etc, all of which were to be found in Pyongyang. In fact Joe have a good look at a map of North Korea and see what a strategically important hub it is, then you might see why the UN decided to attack it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:38 PM It takes wisdom to ignore the advice of obsessive arm chair generals. Fortunately even the dim won't fall for the General act. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:40 PM Nonetheless, Teribus, I think that if the people of Pyongyang had been of European descent, the U.S. would have been far more reluctant to bomb it with such devastation. And yes, Greg_F, it was a crime against humanity, even though the victims were Asian and the criminals were American. I don't think you disagree with me, but you may have been confused by something because it looks like you're posting disagreement with what I said. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Greg F. Date: 18 Apr 17 - 06:49 PM Nothing to do with anything YOU said, Joe, but there are others.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Apr 17 - 07:34 PM how this is realistically achieved in time of war? For a start you don't carpet bomb residential areas in cities, and you don't use chemical weapons like Agent Orange or Sarin. And maybe you even refrain from targetting wedding celebrations and funerals. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:01 PM " The phenomenon of mind control." a conjured up Western dream How do you "mind control" countries the size of Russia and China, especially when the first thing their new leaders was was to intruduce univrsl education where none had been before The Russian Revolution came about at the time of, and probably because of of World War One, where entire generations were forced to sacrifice their lives for the sake of "God, KIng and country" - "mind control in he extreme. I visited six communist countries as a young man I found the people I met were well-educated and articulate men and women who, for all their criticisms, which they expressed openly to a couple of strangers, were dedicated to their country and believed that the changes that had been brought about would continue - that included Czechoslovakia following the Troubles there in 1969. The mind control of nations is the stuff of Science Fiction - the nearest to reality it has ever attained it two world Wars, four Thatcher Governments, Brexit and Trump -though I do find it somewhat reminiscent of the classic, 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers' when I constantly have to jump aside t avoud people staring into mobile phones - creepy or what!!! Sorry Robo (a strange cchoice of name for someone fantasising about mind control) - you appear to have overdosed on Star Trek Spare us the Cold War sloganising. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: robomatic Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:36 PM Ahh Jim: I got to visit the Soviet Union when it was the Soviet Union. Their two main newspapers were Izvestia and Pravda which mean respectively 'News' and 'Truth'. A common Russian saying was that in the News there was no truth and in the Truth there was no news. I have gotten in trouble in forums much different from this from merely observing that considering the horrible economic losses sustained in the Wars, I was impressed by the high literacy rate and that everyone's teeth had been fixed, even if the artificial teeth were stainless steel. But you have swallowed the philosophical alternative facts that were the Soviet Ideology, and the artificial philosophy that underlay their State actions of invasion and occupation of their neighbors. And you apparently are willing to overlook the Gulag Archipelago, Show Trials, the mass starvation of Collectivization. And it would be nice to mention that after WWI American aid organized by Herbert Hoover saved millions of Russians from starving. I too met many of the people who grew up under Communism, but a funny thing, when you live in a country with very limited information, all of it State controlled, you know you're being lied to, but you still exist on a diet of lies. You have to know more about that kind of world then what a visitor sees and knows in a short time and people are willing to tell him or her when they don't know who they are talking with. The Books "Darkness at Noon" and "1984" were written by people who had been believers but evolved (hope the word 'evolution' is not on YOUR forbidden list, JC) because they asked questions, and questions in that environment are dangerous. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 17 - 08:40 PM 45 years ago part of the cold war included psychic warfare with Russia, conjured up by the Russians. The US somehow figured we must not have a psychic war gap. There are parodies of that era later on like Men who Stare at Goats. Remember the Remote Viewers program? I do, to the point of remote involvement because I refused their invitation. (Navy dept of Intel) In short this stuff is not just an American concoction. Russia has streamlined mind control down to its primary parts. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: robomatic Date: 18 Apr 17 - 09:08 PM Yeah, you MIND or you DIE. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Teribus Date: 19 Apr 17 - 02:44 AM "Teribus, I think that if the people of Pyongyang had been of European descent, the U.S. would have been far more reluctant to bomb it with such devastation." You have got to be joking haven't you!! In January 1951 when these raids took place most of Germany was still a massive bomb site. In Jack's link a statement is made that before the raid the population was around 500,000 and that after the raid the population that remained in the city was around 50,000. That infers casualties of 450,000 which of course is nonsense - Germany was bombed for at least five years on an almost continual basis by thousands of aircraft and the resulting death toll was ~600,000. Are you really trying to tell me that 82 aircraft killed 450,000 people in three raids? In the newspaper article that you posted Curtis LeMay's figure of 3 million North Koreans dying (20% of the population) is incorrect highest estimate for casualties North and South is 2.5 million with a population in the North of 9.5 million and a population in the South of 25.9 million in 1951. As to your statement about US reluctance had the targets been in Europe - New York Times, 22nd October, 1981: Mr. Reagan was questioned about these European concerns. He was asked if he thought there could be a limited exchange of nuclear weapons in Europe or whether it would inevitably grow into a war directly involving the United States and the Soviet Union. ''I don't honestly know,'' Mr. Reagan said. He added that with each side having equal forces, ''I could see where you could have the exchange of tactical weapons against troops in the field without it bringing either one of the major powers to pushing the button.'' See any sign of reluctance there Joe? I can't, and throughout the time I served in the armed forces during the Cold War it was taken as read that IF Soviet or Warsaw Pact forces deployed and used their Chemical or Bacteriological weapons NATO's response would be tactical nuclear attacks on Soviet formations and the Soviets were made aware of that in no uncertain terms. By the way Kevin I asked you how you could achieve what you suggested in time of war, I see by your response that you haven't got the foggiest notion, your suggestion is nothing more than meaningless waffle that in time of war would result in your troops dying. Three quotes from Curtis Lemay: 1: "We're at war with ....... We were attacked by ........... Do you want to kill the ........, or would you rather have Americans killed?" 2: "Apply whatever force it is necessary to employ, to stop things quickly. The main thing is stop it. The quicker you stop it, the more lives you save." 3: "it's more immoral to use less force than necessary, than it is to use more. if you use less force, you kill off more of humanity in the long run, because you are merely protracting the struggle." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:11 AM 2Ahh Jim: I got to visit the Soviet Union when it was the Soviet Union. " Me too, and Hungary, and Czechoslovakia, and Bulgaria, and Poland, and Czechosovakia, and Yugoslavia....... Never once saw people carrying pods which they carefully put in their cellars until they burst open and became replacements for their hosts, I've read all of Koestler's books and a lot mote - so what? What's the difference between a press like the Soviet Union's and and one owned by a handful of billionaires? In my lifetime one of the main daily papers, still going strong, was owned by a fascist who openly supported the rise of Herr Hitler and extolled the virtue of Mosley and his Blackshirts As for education - we sang hymns telling us that foreigners were inferior and needed our guidance and lined up in the pissing rain when the Queen Mother drove past or school...... Every State promoting every system 'brainwashes' in one form or the other with whatever method it can lay its hands to. In the end, it depends how people are able to develop under any system and what the objectives of that system are. The Soviet Union, China, Cuba, East Germany.... and others placed a large emphasis on developing people's minds socially and culturally, as do Left organisations in Britain - my grandfather helped found The Workers Education Association among his fellow merchant seamen. Far from being mindless zombies, I found Eastern Europeans highly educated, articulate, cultural and interested to a far greater extent than was the situation back home. The dream of the left died in these countries for all sorts of reasons, the main one being that the main objective was watered down and lost, and because of outside pressures, not because there was anything basically wrong with that dream. It provided solutions our own system isn't even looking for - yet, though it is extremely worrying to see where we are heading, with political thugs like Trump and wannabe leaders like LePen looming up on the horizon. I suggest you read what Terribus is writing if you want a glimpse of Capitalism's 'Brave New World', the necessity of slaughtering civilians, 'them and and us' wars in which anything goes, a system where weapons of mass destruction are no longer for defence, but are essential to the stabilisation of economies - and a source of profit, to be sold to anybody who is prepared to buy them, whatever use they will be put to. One thing is certain - as far as 'brainwashing' is concerned - when and if it is made possible (it is still the dream of the Assimovs and the Frank Herberts) the idea of education those you wish to enslave will have to go. Do you honestly think that Putin's Russia, or former Yugoslavia, or the Eastern States encompassing racism and fascism.... is an improvement on what went before, whatever its flaws? Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: robomatic Date: 19 Apr 17 - 11:53 AM Jim: Do you honestly think that the incredible death rate of those who politically opposed those in power in a myriad of work/ death camps is worth ignoring no matter how many fine intellectuals you met (who obviously could discuss things of no interest to the State while being spied on by that State)? Let's say you had been misheard and arrested after one of those fine conversations. You'd have been subjected to a kangaroo court and your case decided by your usefulness to the authorities. As for the sorry state of the current descendants of the Soviet Union, their state mafia devolved to a privatized mafia. This is a kind of reverse commentary on what used to be the Communist theory that capitalism would naturally progress to a higher form of organization culminating in Communism. "The dream of the left" died in those slave states long before your visit. Another book in addition to the ones you've ignored in my previous posts is "The God that failed." The actual "dream of the left" is alive and well in the West. You are yourself one of its exponents, as am I. The fact that we are at intellectual loggerheads in a venue of free speakers is one of its salient features. When I visited the Soviet Union I saw the inevitable huge placards and streamers under bridges proclaiming the greatness of Lenin and the Party. Nothing like people constantly being told what and how to think. (This state organization now is on display in North Korea). You are completely ignoring or denying this main feature of Eastern Europe. I'll also never forget a visitor to Communist China in late 60s early 70s visiting a bookstore. They only sold ONE BOOK, the 'thoughts' of Chairman Mao. There are none so blind as those who will not see, none so deaf as those who will not hear. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Apr 17 - 02:01 PM "Do you honestly think that the incredible death rate of those who politically opposed those in power in a myriad of work/ " Don't know if you have any particular back-door to the truth, but having had an interest in politics for half-a century, I have a little difficulty in separating it from the Cold-War rhetorical claims of how many died By the time Stalin got his toe in, anything resembling socialism had long disappeared and the left were as likely to be victims as were the right - nothing to do with the system that was being aimed for. Hitler was a product of German industrial capitalism - would you use that fact to denigrate the capitalist system? Democracy is a very moveable feast in the West My father panicked when he say the rise of Hitler, went off to fight in Spain and was wounded and imprisoned there. When he returned, he was awarded an MI5 record as a "premature anti-fascist", excommunicated from his church, and blacklisted from his work - my mother and sister hardly saw him until I was aged 9 because he was forced to become a navvy Now I am ten years older than he was when he died, there isn't a day passes when I don't think of him with pride - I still share his dream. I doubt it. The aims of The Soviet Union were being distorted by outside interference, such as the 14 countries which sent troops to support the Civil War brought about by an attempt top return to the old system and another world war in which the USSR lost 26,600,000 people, 13.7% of the population The state was leveled to the ground and, rather than being allowed to rebuild peacefully, along came The Cold War. Despite that fact, what had been a backward semi feudalist gathering of backward states, it developed into an industrial world leader Stalin was a political thug working in a situation that encouraged such extremism - up to the end of the war he was "Good old Uncle Joe", the man who helped beat the Nazis (still have a photograph somewhere of me standing with my mothers arms at a street party in Liverpool, with posters of Stalin plastered all over the street. "slave states" is one of those convenient terms - we fill our shops with goods created by virtual slave labour, and we sell arms to the dictators that create the conditions, because they are regarded as "a safe pair of hands" When mass-murderer Pinochet was under house-arrest in Britain our Prime Minister worked her socks off to see he didn't come to trial for the many thousand young people he had slaughtered She described those who wanted him tried as "running a police state" and, at a rally in Westminster on a platform draped witr crossed British and Chilean flags, she described him as "a hero of democracy" Don't get me wrote - I despise Stalin for what he did to 'the dream", but he was a product of extreme circumstances which allowed him to do his worst. Britain was quite happy to let "Herr Hitler" do his worst until they had no alternative, Never been to China, but the Communist countries I did visit had no such restrictions on literature and those I talked to knew far more about my country's history than I did at the time - and most of them spoke several languages, English being the most common. Lenin - so what Don't we have statues to Nelson and Wellington - aren't our public buildings draped with flags, don't we still celebrate centuries old battles (mostly those which enabled us to enslave an entire Empire) Lenin was a national hero who assisted Russia to walk away from the bloodbath that was WW1 and save many millions of Russian lives I'd buy him a drink if he walked into our local. I suggest you come back and tell me about Stalin when we don't live under a system that doesn't sanction the pouring of burning jellied petrol on third world farmers, or sanction wars with third world nations in order to run our cars on cheap petrol - or fill our shops with goods manufactured in factories that regularly crush workers who are paid less than enough to feed themselves and their families Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: robomatic Date: 19 Apr 17 - 04:00 PM Jim you very capably express a POV I can sympathize with - in spots. No one is saying that any nations have clean hands in a filthy world. BUT, I think you will not be surprised to find that my opinion is that you are cherry picking your nasties. I say Gulags, you avow that Hitler's Concentration Camps were Capitalism Made Manifest. I find that unbelievable on its face because you are completely ignoring the racism racialism that was bedrock to the Nazi philosophy. Hitler found companies that made his munitions and the furnaces of Auschwitz. Likewise Stalin found whatever he needed to establish his gulags, very often the work of the prisoners themselves. I don't think economic structure is a valid demarcation point... Lenin was no peacenik. He backed away from war with Germany because the Germans had helped put him in power. Stalin made 'peace' with Hitler so both could divide up Poland and prepare for major war with each-other (and in the meantime he raped Finland). But as for national structure of government and legal system over one's own citizens, the difference is as night and day - for me. Freedom of speech under one side, prohibited on the other. Access to legal means for the accused under one side, unavailable on the other. Ability to publish independently under one side, unknown on the other. Food distribution independent under one side, dependent on the State under the other. These are the concrete and discrete difference between societies that you are seeking to muddle together in your pot stirring perambulations. Let's boil it down to one question, Jim- Is there at the present time a net qualitative difference between life in South Korea and life in North Korea? And which side if any has the plus column? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:25 PM "my opinion is that you are cherry picking your nasties." So are you "you are completely ignoring the racism racialism that was bedrock to the Nazi philosophy" Just as the British leaders (including a King) did when they kissed Hitler's backside Nazi racism was well underway when Britain was appeasing Hitler - go find a copy of The Daily Mail. "Likewise Stalin found whatever he needed to establish his gulag," I have pointed out that the Gulags were around long before the Bolsheviks were a twinkle in anybody's eye - Tolstoy based one of his finest novels around them - Trotsky escaped from them on two occasions - Stalin took them over ready-made. "He backed away from war with Germany because the Germans had helped put him in power. " Sorry Robo - you really have swallowed Cold War propaganda hook, line and sinker. The revolution took place because the soldiers turned and walked away from the front, refusing to fight - they were joined by starving workers and peasants. Russia was well out of the war before six months before the Bolsheviks too control Germany brought Lenin back from Russia as a move to ensure that they stayed out - no deal, no negotiations - the walk-out occurred in May.- the Bolsheviks didn't gain control till October. "Stalin made 'peace' with Hitler so both could divide up Poland" An arguable point Some historians claim that Stalin made peace with Germany because they were in no position to do anything else - they had nowhere near enough arms to oppose the German army, but they shortly became capable Depends on who you believe, I suppose. Freedom of speech was never "opposed" as such Stalin turned on his political enemies and by and large, the Russian people fell for it hook, line and sinker, believing the opponents were "ultra-lefts" working with Germany The left was as much a victim of Stalin as anybody It was a massive con job engineered by Stalin, not a suppression of free speech. Stalin was idolized by the people, it was not until three years after his death, when Kruschev exposed Stalin's crimes at the The twentieth congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1956, that the truth gradually began to emerge. As Lincoln said, "you can fool some of the people some of the time..." Sorry, Robo your "suppression of free speech" is as dodgy a claim as your brainwashing one. Masses of human beings are just not like that. Stalin was idolised by the people, he still is in his native Georgia - it was encouraging that idolotry that was the main point of Kruschev's speech - not thought control or suppression of the masses The people were the ones he had to convince and he had a pretty uphill struggle to do do it. You mention Koestler - a very moving author but an extremely dodgy individual ( a rapist, among other things) Can I suggest a far superior work that, in my opinion, shows how Stalin managed to weave his web Try the chillingly readable, 'Case of Comrade Tulyev', by Victor Serge, , from an author who was there and experienced what was happening first hand Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Donuel Date: 19 Apr 17 - 08:58 PM Death by Russian Polonium is a most horrible way to die. Our US neutron bombs are more efficient, humane and HUGE. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: robomatic Date: 19 Apr 17 - 11:36 PM JC: I'm aware of Koestler's dodginess. I've had a high time with him in other forums regarding other books he wrote. But I think "Darkness at Noon" was a great work in which he tried to understand what went through Party-Members' minds when they themselves got put on trial for 'crimes' they could not themselves dream of, yet to which they confessed. Mind-rape indeed. I think Stalin being idolized by many of his citizens is as chilling an example of mind-rape as has ever occurred. I suppose it has applied to Chairman Mao and is being applied to Kim even now. Meanwhile are you going to consider the simple question I asked you regarding S.Korea vs N.Korea? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Apr 17 - 04:29 AM "I think Stalin being idolized by many of his citizens is as chilling an example of mind-rape as has ever occurred" Over-dramatic nonsense that could be applied to anyone in history The idolatry of Stalin had nothing to do with the individual - he was in the right place at the right time The world had come through a massive and totally unprecedented blood bath in which entire generations had been slaughtered for the sake of Empire Following this, the Germany entered a revolutionary period to overthrow the system that caused the massive slaughter - it failed, and Fascism gained a toe hold there. Soviet Russia seemed to offer a solution and was heading for being the first worker's state - a guarantee that these bloodbaths would never happen again THat's where adulation of Stalin came from - not some weird mind "mind-raping" process - it was a reaction to a failing Imperial system that had raped the planet and divided it up for centuries - a centuries old gang rape of the poorest nations by the wealthiest. It has always been ignored that one of the excuses used for entering the obscene slaughter that was WW1 was the treatment of "gallant little Belgium" who had caused the deaths of up to ten million Congolese in the pursuit of rubber. Why doesn't that count as one of your "chilling examples". Stalin was adored, not just by the Russian people, but by the left, the liberal left and many more as a way out of a system that had become rabid - read clergyman Hewlett Johnson's 'Socialist Sixth of the world' or the Webb's 'Soviet Communism' to see the admiration for a new system to end all wars That fact that Stalin's idol had clay feet didn't in any way alter the fact that the world needed changing - and still does. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Apr 17 - 05:41 AM Sorry Not in ignoring your Korean query - will respond later I don't believe the analogy you suggest has anyting to do with the main points of this - North Korea is a badly run deformed workers state - a travesty of a socialist country - The south is a wealthy country massively subsidised by by the US and Japan that doesn't have the sucurity problems of their northern counterpart Would you compare Capitalist Germany with capitalist India as proof of anything Hope not Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Stu Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:37 AM Jim, you write you posts in a most unusual style. They almost look like poems rather than polemic. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:46 AM Is that a criticism or a complement Stu? I have to say, I would like it to be the latter I write off the top of my head as I feel (that's why I never post after a few pints) Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Donuel Date: 20 Apr 17 - 08:57 AM Twitler is stallin plans for Korean war 4. The Donald is ruing by decree, executive orders, appointmrnts and waivers only. If he can get his waiver to do his 500 billion dollar oil deal with Russia, his mission is don since he plans to gain several trillion dollars. I do not see him as a 4 year President. He may not pull a Palin and quit. After all Donald is invested in South Korea. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Stu Date: 20 Apr 17 - 10:50 AM It's neither really Jim, but more of complement than a criticism ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: robomatic Date: 20 Apr 17 - 12:03 PM Jim: Your writing is a kind of blank verse. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Apr 17 - 12:12 PM I'm not sure I like blank verse Are you saying it is "blank" verse ot that what I am saying is nothing? As we used to rhyme in Liverpool in my young days "I am a poet and didn't know it I **** on my shirt and I didn't show it Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: robomatic Date: 20 Apr 17 - 12:44 PM Actually, Jim, I'm going to take you at your word, if I understood it correctly, that you would "respond later" to my N.Korea S.Korea inquiry as asked in detail on 19 April at 4:00 PM and go on to what I think of everytime I see the thread title: 'Mass murder of defenceless civilians'. North of Mosul there is a large sink-hole. Reports have come in that uncounted civilians have been tossed in by ISIS. The Iraqi military with American support is trying to recover this city of a million residents after its rapid and well-nigh unaccountable loss to the rapid ISIS onslaught of 2014. ISIS has administered the city since and made the citizens their fodder. They are preyed upon in every way imaginable and now, under the current attempt to re-take the city by the Iraqi government, they are hostages and also an escape route (as ISIS masquerade as civilians if necessary). ISIS has no limits on what they can or will do people under their control. ISIS lives and fights among them so there is no way to attack ISIS fighters without likewise endangering civilians. This is not unlike what happened during the Korean War. Only it's happening as I type this message. Our leaders are making decisions on what happens to these peoples' lives right now. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Apr 17 - 01:59 PM I'm really not ure what there is to say about Korea The war caused massive damage to both sides, the North suffered much more than the South I remember stories of some people in the North reduced to living in caves After the war, America poured in money into the South as reparation - later Japan assisted through trade – the North was left to make its own way. Despite this, The North did well right into the 1990; an indication that they were doing the right things for nearly forty years. The downturn in the economy appears to be a bad leadership, rather than a failure of the political system. What's your point? You talk about brainwshing Personally, I regard WW1 as the worst example of brainwashing in history. Millions of young men being sacrificed (willingly, it is argued) in a war of attrition conducted by obtaining as many, first volunteers, later conscripts as could be got, and sending them to their certain deaths, wave after wave, no tactics, no strategy, jus slog it out to they were all dead or wounded and go get some more and continue for five years until one or other side had had enough. And for what - a squabble between two sides of the same family as to who should own most of the planet H G Wells, eat your heart out - you couldn't have come up with anything like that in a million years!! We'll go on about atrocity and oppresion and compare all the different brands, if you like Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: ollaimh Date: 21 Apr 17 - 12:49 AM gee i thought you were all talking about bloody sunday |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians From: robomatic Date: 21 Apr 17 - 09:53 AM "Nonetheless, Teribus, I think that if the people of Pyongyang had been of European descent, the U.S. would have been far more reluctant to bomb it with such devastation." "Yet many of Dresden's residents had come to believe that their city would be spared an air attack. A rumor circulated that Winston Churchill had an aunt who lived in Dresden. The city called itself Elbflorenz- Florence on the Elbe- and it had once been a required stop for young Englishmen on the grand tour. Saxon kings had brought Italian stonmasons north to build in Dresden, and the city's features were softer and warmer than those of other German cities. The Baroque churches and neoclassical art museums, the opera that rivalled Vienna's, the factories that made Meissen china-these were Dresden's air defenses. The city was too beautiful to be bombed." and: Kyoto More on Kyoto |