BS:Mass murder of defenceless civilians-Korea 1951

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 08:03 PM

Jim Carroll:

A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic

I posed the question: "Let's boil it down to one question, Jim- Is there at the present time a net qualitative difference between life in South Korea and life in North Korea? And which side if any has the plus column?"

Your answer was incredibly shallow and diversionary. It displayed the alienation between Communism and individual human rights. The result of which is the alienation between Communism and human rights en masse.

Right now we have a single human tragedy, that of Otto Warmbier A single American who committed a harmless act of aggressive tourism, and has been mistreated to the point where he is worse off than if he simply died.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 04:04 AM

My answer was not shallow, your question was based on a false premise - that North Korea is a Communist country and that South Korea got to be what is was by its own efforts.
Neither is the case, as my answer attempted to point out.
Whatever North Korea set out to be, it has long left that path
Communism has never been more than a dream - the end of a long, hard road
I know nothing of what Mr Warmbier did, but his punishment is no worse nor better that that meted out so, say, opponents of Assad over the decades, or those who stood up to the Greek Colonels - or nearer to home - those who stood up to Augusto Pinochet, who was hailed as a hero of democracy by our Prime Minister, who went on to describe the seeking to bring him to trial for mass murder, rape and torture of many thousands of young people as "running a police state".
Would you hold Papadopoulos or Pinochet or Assad (or even Trump) as shining examples of the system you seem so keen on supporting - I doubt it?
Then why produce a country that was never given a chance to even start to recover from a genocidal war imposed on it by "the democratic nations" aa an example of a goal that was never even embarked on?
The same, incidentally, goes for states like Cuba who survived outside intervention and embargo instated by the worlds most powerful nation (90 miles from its doorstep) for over sixty years.
Rather like tying someone to a tree and jeering at them because they won't fight
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:30 PM

Jim:
You are utterly fascinating. You ascribe to my posts positions I have not taken, and things I have not written. And you play that old trick I ran into in my youth. Communist country does evil things, therefore it can't really be Communist! Now Communism is an unrealizable ideal! (Reminds me of an old Kishon quote: Communism is "great in theory, the only problem is it CAN be realized!"

But even more remarkable is your attempt to bring in other dictators and other travesties of justice as your version of deflection. This is the very tactic you descry when you are bashing Israel and your opposition tries to bring out the even worse conditions/ behaviors of every other country in the region.

Most anti-Semites are hypocrites. Here we have two countries, two societies (N.Korea, S.Korea) which are racially and religiously similar but separated by clear ideological differences which has rendered one politically and economically rich and varied, and the other a depressed, oppressed hellhole by comparison. You are squirming as no worm has ever wriggled, to avoid facing up to the contrast. This has exposed you as never before.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:23 PM

"You ascribe to my posts positions I have not taken,
How?
You compare the development of North and south Korea - chalk and bananas
North and South Korea differ basically in the fact that The North was devestated to the level of people living in caves, while the South was nowhere near as badly damaged yet baled out by vast amounts of Western money
Simple as that
"evil things, therefore it can't really be Communist!
This is really basic stuff no country ever tried to change oe system to another - they all aimed to - basic Marxism
The programme of the British Communist Party was 'The British Road to Socialism' not 'The British Road to Communism'.
Communism was to be the end result, not something you put on like a new coat
There are loads of reasons why the experiment failed - not all of them internal, but that aside
Russia was a conglomerate of colonies from poorly industrialised Capitalism in the West to primitive feudalism - occasionally nomadism in the east
It could never adopt communism as a system without industrialising and widespread education, which is what happened
Russia should ner have had a revolution when it did - it wasn't ready, but it had no alternative.
Germany would have made a better job of it and it very nearly succeedded
Despite this, within a few decades, despite a crippling war that had left the country in ruins and slaughtered millions of its youth, a Civil war participated in by 14 hostile countries and another world war made the greatest sacrifce of all the particpants, Russia was throwing up Sputniks by the 1950s, wa fully industrialised and was a world contender.
China achieved the same some thirty years later.   
Both could have been well on the road to Socialism (not Communism) if it hadn't been for appalling leadership and constant outside intervention.
I never described communism as "unrealisable" nor would I
The present situation of a widening gap between rich and poor cannot sustain itself and will eventually go the way of the Roman Empire, -
whatever tortuous path it takes the world has to end in a more equitable society otherwise it will just end.
"Most anti-Semites are hypocrites"
I hope this spiteful aside is not aimed at me
I heve never at any time in my life denigrated the Jewish people and i have offered a prize of a generous donation to any named charity to anybody who can quote me doinf so
My quarrel is with the Israeli regime and it is antisemitic by definition to claim that criticism of Israel is antisemitic (as the Israelis are guilty of doing constantly)
What are you people on, whith your antisemitic, underhand smears?
If you are accusing me of being antisemitic because I criticise Israel, it is you who is the Jew-hater - not me.
Go read a book and come back with some real arguments we can discuss - this is Joe McCarthy stuff
You might throw in some real arguments about Britain and the West dealing with, propping up and even installing dictators, while you're at it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 11:23 PM

Throwing all the old spaghetti against the wall and seeing if anything sticks, while carefully avoiding actual responses- very trendy, i.e. Trumpian.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 04:09 AM

"throwing all the old spaghetti against the wall and seeing if anything sticks, "
And avoiding points made is an age-old way of avoiding facts
I have answered every point you have made as best I can - you have responded to nothing
I'm happy to discuss this as long as your wish - even the dodge-the-question game you people seem to favour, but I would like to clear up one point before I do
You alluded to my being an antisemite despite my having never made a single attack on the Jewish people in my life and despite the fact that the little bunch of squalids on this forum who have accused me of being such have never attempted to tale up my offer - a generous donation for proof of my antisemitism
I would like you to clarify your accusation so we can progress any further, otherwise I'm off
I really can't be arsed with dishonest, cowardly people who use such argument as stones to avoid intelligent discussion on topics I regard important and use antisemitic arguments to do so (Israel is not the Jewish People and has long ceased to represent them by dividing them into supporters of their policies and "self-hating Jews"
So please either clarify your accusation or apologise and withdraw it, otherwise, I'll leave you to wallow in your own swill
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 09:03 AM

a generous donation for proof of my antisemitism

Time to pay up Carroll and we want to see receipts.


User Name         Thread Name         Subject         Posted
[PM] Jim Carroll         BS: Palestine (657* d)         RE: BS: Palestine         23 Oct 11

I have claimed that there are comparisons ("echoes" is the word I used) to be drawn between the behaviour of the Nazis towards the Jews, and that of the Israelis towards the Palestinians


Examples of the definition of anti-Semitism as adopted by 31 democratic countries including Ireland and the UK, it's police force and the UK Labour Party, ten Observer Countries, and seven international partner organisations to whit: the United Nations, UNESCO, OSCE/ODIHR, International Tracing Service (ITS), European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA), Council of Europe, and the Claims Conference:

-Legitimate criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic.

-Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions is anti-Semitic.

-Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor is anti-Semitic.

-Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation is anti-Semitic.

-Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is anti-Semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 10:32 AM

Or is it simply a case of the abused becomming the abuser? Pretty common, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 11:49 AM

"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is anti-Semitic."
That clause was put in at the insistence of the Israelis who now claim that any critisism of Israel is "antisemitic" - must be true, the Minister of Justice said so
THe next clause in the definition states clearly:
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
and the next
"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
The fact that you and Israel constantly call critics of Israel antisemitic makes that definition totally invalid and leaves us with "the denigration of the Jewish People" as the only workable one
A Jewish Antisemite
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/uk-jewish-mp-israel-acting-like-the-nazis-who-forced-my-family-to-flee-from-poland-28478952.html
ANOTHER
ANOTHER
ANOTHER
ANOTHER
ANOTHER
ANOTHER
ANOTHER

Thanks to people like you and the Isreali regime, the only workable definition of antisemitism is the traditional one - attacks on the Jewish people
People like you of the extreme right have no interests in the welfare of the Jewish people - your interest is in defending the extreme right in Israel
My offer sttill stands
Where have I ever attacked the Jewish people?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 04:41 PM

That clause was put in at the insistence of the Israelis

Another anti-Semitic statement. You really should quit digging yourself deeper into your hole and admit what you are and cough up like a man. But I guess that is too much to expect from a worm.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 05:09 PM

Tired old rubbish, bobad. You must be a very sad man. Find another hobby. Would you like me to send you some recommendations for classical music listening? Mind you, I won't have any music by Wagner in the house (a horrid antisemite), and I won't listen to any music conducted by Karajan (a Nazi Party member). Mendelssohn (a Jew) is one of my favourite composers and on YouTube I listen to the piano playing of Daniel Barenboim (a Jew) more than everyone else put together. Try his performances of the Beethoven sonatas Op 78 and Op 53. Deep down inside you know very well that your chosen adversaries here are not antisemitic. So go and tend your garden and enjoy the sunshine. One day you'll find that your hatred is shortening your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 07:13 PM

Ah yes, they do tend to congregate don't they.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 10:42 PM

Steve:
You are making bobad's case. You just can't help yourself.

I recall Jim Carroll posting song lyrics from an anti-Semitic song with no provocation that I could see in another thread. Also, he compared Israel to Nazi Germany which I find anti-Semitic on its face. I also concur with bobad's recent post above.

There is a tactic which our friends are practicing. That is, purposely drawing out partisan responses by the phenomenon of Jew baiting.

Jim Carroll also seems to be a Communist apologist. This is in keeping with anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism because the Party took such positions at various times, and good Communists fell into line with no reflection on objective truth. Refer to the attempt of Jewish authors to capture the Holocaust experience post WWII with The Black Book and its treatment by the Communist dictatorship, which it did not suit. Communists hold history to be a malleable phenomenon to be put at the service of the Party.

This is not an attractive subject. I feel it is appropriate to call attention to it, but I do not feel compelled to jump to its tune.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:51 AM

Jim,
"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is anti-Semitic."
That clause was put in at the insistence of the Israelis who now claim that any critisism of Israel is "antisemitic"

Can you support that assertion, or did you just make it up?
Israel had no role in formulating the definitions.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:58 AM

"I recall Jim Carroll posting song lyrics from an anti-Semitic song with no provocation that I could see in another thread. "
The only Antisemitic song I have posted was written by a man named Scottish Unionist MP Archibald Ramsay.
Inless you have forgotten why it was posted, it is extremely dishonest of you to claim it was "unprovoked"
I had raised the question of antisemitism in Wartime Britain and related the story of the Members of Parliament who, when the news of the Holocaust began trickling into Britain, put the repots down to "ies invented by whingeing Yids"
Keith leapt to the defence of these gallant gentlemen and in his inimitable manner, claimed no such comment had been made - he persisted (as he does) and I produced information on 'THE RIGHT CLUB , made up of British politicians, businessmen and dignitaries and their publication, 'The Red Book' which included vitriolic anti-semitic poems poems written by one of Britain's great and good, Ramsey - the poem I produced "unprovoked!!!" was one of these.
Keith' also in his inimitable way, continued to defend these people and claim the remark I had raised was never made - his antisemitism is palpable
In recent arguments on the Labour Party's so-called antisemitism, he claimed that the reason we didn't know the nature of the "antisemitism" supposedly displayed widely by Labour \party members was that Jewish politicians ahad entered into a pact of silence to protect "th party they loved" - a 'Jewish plot', no less.
Keith and Bobad are bosom buddies.
You people make me sick
I have never uttered a word of abuse against the Jewish people, my family were part of the pre-war anti fascist fight against the rise of antisemitism in Britain (to the point of being arrested and jailed), my father went to Spain and when he was wounded and imprisoned, shared cells with Jewish fighters who had joined the fight against Franco (I men some of them at his funeral)
I worked alongside Jewish left-wingers in Manchester and became friendly with holocaust survivors (this was 20 yers after the war)
You you shower of extremeist right-wingers call me an antisemite because I am appalled (as is a large slice of the world) at the manner in which various Israeli regimes have destroyed the dream we all had of a Jewish homeland and turned it into an ethnic cleansing nightmare
Your world is one of "self hating Jews" (one of the most antisemitic terms I have ever encountered) who oppose this appalling regime and a regime which rgards any opposition to their actions as a betrayal of the Jewish people (that is classically fascist by definition, by the way - making the will of the people subservient to the interests of the state).   
You interests are in defending the extremist right-wing politics of the regime - you have not a shred of concern for the welfare of Jews as a whole.
You are extremist in your views and totally intolerant and dishonest in your behaviour
I am neither an antisemite, nor am I a "Communist apologist"
I have an interest in 20th century politics and have spent most of my life pursuing it
I am happy to discuss those interests with most people - you you squalid crowd have just been stuck off that list
Bobad is a cowardly troll who hysterically screams "Jew Hater" whenever a word of criticism is uttered against his favourite right-wing regime and now we seem to have a new kid on the block in Robo
I repeat my offer - if you can produce one single example of my attacking the Jewish People I will make a generous donation to the charity of your choice
The right wing mob who rule Israel at present no longer represent the Jewish People, they have denigrated the Jewish Dream of a Homeland by turning it into a monotheisic state and gradually evicted those who do not
live up to their ideal, burdering and destroying in order to do so.
THe world has been here before -m we fought a world war to prevent it happening in Europe
Criticising the Israeli regime is not antisemitic - it says so in all the definitions
Live with it
I leave you with your appallingly dishonest world divided into supporters of modern Israeli politics and "self-hating Jews"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 08:02 AM

Jim,
"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is anti-Semitic."
That clause was put in at the insistence of the Israelis who now claim that any critisism of Israel is "antisemitic"

If that is not just made up shit, produce something, anything, to support it.

Good luck with that, liar!

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 08:30 AM

"If that is not just made up shit, produce something, anything, to support it."
Welcome to the Klavern of apologists Keith - I knew you couldn't resist for long
Why should any definition include such an exclusive clause dfending a specific country?
Any country is capable of adopting Nazi policies, as Islael has proved
You have been given the list of Jews and their organisations who have made those accusations against the Israeli regime - all falling under the Israeli epithet of "self-hating Jews)
Are you antisemitic enough to refuse to acknowledge or even refer to their claims (rhetorical question again)

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 09:11 AM

There can be no possible reason to include such a totally illogical clause
What if they did start behaving like the Nazis?
They have created ghettos whose checkpoints are reminiscent of those in Warsaw and Wilno
THey have driven Bedouins off their land using high pressure hoses and chemicals and forced them onto toxic rubbish dumps
They have now opewrated a decade old ban to foirce Arabs to submit to their land being confiscated
They are at least half-way there already, yet be can't compare them with their fore-runners
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 10:37 AM

That clause was put in at the insistence of the Israelis who now claim that any critisism of Israel is "antisemitic"

If that is not just made up shit, produce something, anything, to support it.

Good luck with that, liar!

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 07:41 PM

Jim:

You can't declare yourself 'not an antisemite'. That is to be determined by others (I'm sure some of your best friends are joos).

As for 'Communist apologist' there was a thread above the line about songs praising Stalin to which I contributed "The Stalin Epigram" by a Soviet era poet who was transported because of his work. I also contributed a song by a Soviet folksinger which was a lot better and more to the point than the absurd song praising good ol' Joe by that American folksinger. You had to contribute one of your longish posts defending the pro-Stalin stance without contributing anything musical. It came off as a party apparatchik defending the faithful proles from the hoary bourgeois.

I keep coming back to one of the most useful quotes I've read about Communist versus Capitalist societies: "The difference between the Communist system and the capitalist system is that when they give you a kick in the ass, in the Communist system you have to applaud, in the capitalist system, you can scream."

You should appreciate that, Jim. You scream pretty much.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 02:26 AM

I have never praised Stalin Keith - not ever
I was the first an only person on this forum to point out that Stalin killed and persecuted as many left opponents as his di right ones.
I certainly pointed out your crass misuse and ignorance of history regarding the Soviet Union, but that was for accuracy's sake.
Feel free to prove otherwise - I look forward to it.
As for the Joos (an antisemitic term in itself) - it is you people who implicate the Jewish people with the crimes and atrocities of the regime who is acting in teh same manner as the people who sent six million of them to their deaths - not me
Unless you have anything new to add beyong denial and the silence of politicians..........!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:16 AM

Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:15 PM

Comes now news that Otto Warmbier, the American student who was arrested and sentenced in N. Korea for taking a poster (or banner) off a wall, has passed away.

Considering his age I believe that his condition resulted from deliberate mistreatment in custody. It would have been kinder to simply execute him.

Obviously this is not mass murder. It stands in for an attitude toward humanity as not composed of individuals, but of pawns, that enables the carrying out of mass murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:05 AM

"Obviously this is not mass murder. It stands in for an attitude toward humanity as not composed of individuals, but of pawns, "
Rather like building tinder boxes of houses and refusing to hose the survivors in vacant property
Or even supporting mass murderers by selling them arms because we need their oil to keep our SUVs on the road.
I can still remember seven years of the US slaughtering Vietnemese Peasants by showering them with BURNING PETROL and carcinogenic sprays
Inhumanity and greed knows no boundaries and doesn't march under any particular flag
It's somewhat hypocritical to casitgate one side and ignore the other
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:18 AM

By the way Robo
Before you suggest it, I do not put the facts of one set of atrocities to try and excuse another - both are acts of inhumanity.
You choose to use this as an argument against changing the system you obviously support
I merely point out that your system is just as corrupt and predatory as any other at present
JimCarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 11:36 AM

Jim:

"Inhumanity and greed knows no boundaries and doesn't march under any particular flag"
So What? I suspect that is not an individual discovery on your part!

Nothing is easier than picking the low hanging fruit of a particular event or set of events and using it to offset another set of events. The problem is in relating one to the other. I do not see how the use of napalm in Vietnam in 1971 relates to the death of Otto Warmbier yesterday.

You can either justify ANYthing or excuse ANYthing with your mode of argument. The devil can quote scripture, too.

The question is "What is to be done, and who is going to do it?"

Lenin's answer was insufficient and unsatisfactory. And he died and left Stalin in charge which resulted in a soviet holocaust which Russia is still living with. And N. Korea is part of that holocaust. And Otto Warmbier is an INDIVIDUAL reminder of the kind of thinking that got them to the present.

Never mind, Jim, they look so pretty when they wave their colorful squares in their stadium
games !

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 12:22 PM

" how the use of napalm in Vietnam in 1971 relates to the death of Otto Warmbier yesterday."
They come out of the same stable
You cannot point to the behaviour of North Korea as an example of inhumanity and ignore the fact that The West has done and continues to do the same, the only difference being that one parcels up their inhumanity as "democratic" while the other doesn't
As I said state terrorism and mass murder has nothing to do with systems - none of these events relate in any way to the behavior of the philosophies of the countries that are responsible - Communist or Capitalist - they are the acts of statesmen and politicians of all persuasions.
What is going to be done?
The way our statesmen seems to be out of all our controls whatever system they operate under.
You chose to blame "communists" I believe not to be communists.
I choose to try and change the world by saying what I believe to be the case, as feeble as that may sound.
"Never mind, Jim, they look so pretty when they wave their colorful squares in their stadium "
And the armies that are blasting their way through the Middle East to protect their oil flow look quite pretty in their uniforms look equally pretty
ANYTHING YOU CAN DO I CAN DO BETTER
TENDS TO PUT YOUR MAN IN NORTH KOREA IN THE SHADE, DON'CHA THINK?
These discussions are pointless unless they are put into context of what is done by our governments in our name
I take it we've finished with the "antisemitic" bit?
Don't bother apologising, I've got used to that not happening when discussing with a certain type of person
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:08 PM

Stimulating conversation. Normally Joe deletes 2 person conversations.
I'm glad there is some flexibility.

Stalin's holocaust is of interest to me.
I have one question however, Is there really such a thing as a humane lethal weapon?

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:29 PM

"humane lethal weapon?"
Not yet - they're working on it
"Stalin's holocaust is of interest to me."
Worth looking out Vinagradov's, Isaac Deuscher's or Trotsky's biographies of Stalin - all from different directions but all with something interesting to say

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:49 PM

Anybody interested in how Stalin worked should get hold of the easily available and very readable 'The Case of Comrade Tulayev' by Victor Serege
It's a work of fiction written by a revollionary who was a winss to what happnd - has 'Darkness at Noon' beaten into a cocked hat in my opinion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:08 PM

Might have known that you prefer fiction to fact Jom.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:36 AM

Jim:

Thank you for keeping up with your replies. I really disagree with you which makes you important to me!

In general, I find your amalgamation of phrases to not put together a coherent argument to my way of thinking. Starting with your last post, I'm going to go through it line by line, which I would term "untangling the spaghetti"

" how the use of napalm in Vietnam in 1971 relates to the death of Otto Warmbier yesterday."
They come out of the same stable
I disagree. Different countries, different times. Using the blandishment 'same stable' to me is lazy and quite inaccurate.

You cannot point to the behaviour of North Korea as an example of inhumanity and ignore the fact that The West has done and continues to do the same, the only difference being that one parcels up their inhumanity as "democratic" while the other doesn't

But I don't do that. I return, once more, to one of my favorite quotes about Communist versus Capitalist societies: "The difference between the Communist system and the capitalist system is that when they give you a kick in the ass, in the Communist system you have to applaud, in the capitalist system, you can scream."


As I said state terrorism and mass murder has nothing to do with systems - none of these events relate in any way to the behavior of the philosophies of the countries that are responsible - Communist or Capitalist - they are the acts of statesmen and politicians of all persuasions.

Once again, I disagree. The Nazis built Concentration camps on ethnic and religious grounds which killed millions. They had show trials. The Communists built concentration camps (Gulags) on class and political orthodoxy which killed millions. They had masses of show trials, and in the satellites countries as well, which did not have freely electd governments but were subservient to Moscow. The Communists under Stalin also moved masses of people on ethnic grounds. The Communists under Stalin also starved millions of people under forced collectivization. Mao starved millions of people as part of the Great Leap Forward. These were all leaders under whom there was no recourse. You had to applaud (Literally , in Stalin's case).

Even the Tsars didn't come close in damage and brutality to their own people. And the Tsars were no picnic.


What is going to be done?
The way our statesmen seems to be out of all our controls whatever system they operate under.
You chose to blame "communists" I believe not to be communists.
I choose to try and change the world by saying what I believe to be the case, as feeble as that may sound.

In all honesty, to me, you sound pretty feeble. You have swallowed dialectical materialism, the ersatz philosophy of Marxism. This involved the equivalent of Orwell's Newspeak along with Doublethink. In Orwell's 1984 he uses Newspeak as translating a passage of the American Declaration of Independence into the single word: "Crimethink." Dialectical Materialism was similar in that it defined the Capitalist term "profit" as "exploitation." Why argue with a concept when you can define it out of existence?


And the armies that are blasting their way through the Middle East to protect their oil flow look quite pretty in their uniforms look equally pretty
ANYTHING YOU CAN DO I CAN DO BETTER
TENDS TO PUT YOUR MAN IN NORTH KOREA IN THE SHADE, DON'CHA THINK?
These discussions are pointless unless they are put into context of what is done by our governments in our name

I am not saying that Western governments are pure as the driven snow, and without vile self interest, poorly and lethally applied. I AM saying that as bad as they are, we are allowed to scream, and you and i are PROOF of that!

I take it we've finished with the "antisemitic" bit?
Don't bother apologising, I've got used to that not happening when discussing with a certain type of person

Actually I meant to add to my last post that your comparing napalm in Vietnam in 1971 to Otto Warmbier in N. Korea this past year was as inappropriate and inaccurate as comparing Israel with Nazi Germany. You brought out references to other folks on the web, presumably Jewish and/or Israeli, making similar comparisons. I think you are not being discriminating. When those folks make the comparison, they are sounding a warning bell, that to their minds things are happening, things are being said, by Jewish Israelis that are reminiscent of Nazi Germany on its way to developing the means that resulted in "The Final Solution". But my understanding of your wording is that you claim Israel is there, basically gassing Arabs wholesale. I think this is extremist and not helpful to the discussion. Also, Israel is full of art and literature that involves multiple cultures and includes everything from hagiography to the most scathing of governmental criticism. Israel is working on a multicultural civilization. The dictatoraial governments of Gaza and the West Bank are mired in doctrine and despair. Self criticism of either Islam or the Palestinian government is punishable up to and including death, and usually does not involve trials.

For Example: It is not anti-semitic to go into a fair and open dialogue on what is meant by what the Old Testament calls, (with some justification), a "stiff-necked people". It IS antisemitic to make that your only arguing point and claim it is a racial indictment from God. (That preceding sentence is an example only and is NOT aimed at you personally, Jim).

"Stiff necked people" applies to many (if not all) peoples, and some people even take pride in the appellation.

Meanwhile, thanks for the book references. At this time I'm not promising to look them up as I've got a long reading list, but I will probably see if they are in the local library. Are YOU aware that "1984" and probably "Darkness at Noon" owe a lot to Zamyatin's "We"?

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:08 AM

Robert Conquest's biography of Stalin has superseded those mentioned by Jim, with much more information than was available to the earlier writers he is able to demolish many of the myths they helped to promote.
I certainly would not dismiss "Darkness at Noon" as Jim does either.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:41 AM

Robo
Just posted a long response but it didn't take
Will do it again when I have time
Keith
You have nor read any of the biographies you claim have been superseded by Conquest - you proved that by your dishonest claim of having read Deuscher yet being totally unable to anser a basic question on his approach
I very much doubt (knowing you being limited to cut-'n-paste lenght passages and your constant complaints of my posted information being "too long") if you have read Conqust - much "too long" and far too many big words.
I do not "dismiss" 'Darkness at Noon' - I hold it in deep respect, but I think there are far superior and less limited books on the subject
If you can't bother to be honest, perhaps you should go and play in the garden with the rest of the children while the adults are talking
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:20 AM

claim of having read Deuscher yet being totally unable to anser a basic question on his approach

If that is true Jim, QUOTE ME.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:34 AM

Perhaps you mean this exchange,
Jim, "I too have Deutsher's book on hand - perhaps you'd like to tell me exactly what your copy says about the famine."

Me, "Jim, it is years since I read those two biographies and they were good in their time but long out of date (1967 and 1966)and superseded by information uncovered since then.
Deutscher dedicates his book thus, "I dedicate this book a link in our friendship to TAMARA.
Do you still doubt I have it? "

Jim, "I too have Deutsher's book on hand - perhaps you'd like to tell me exactly what your copy says about the famine."

"famine" is not in the index.
under "Ukraine collectivisation" p333 is referenced.
"Nadia Alliluyeva (his wife) spoke about the famine and discontent in the country and about the moral ravages which the terror had wrought on the party........
The same evening she committed suicide."

My copy was originally prices 63s.net.
Yours the same? "

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:57 AM

We really have been here Keith
Anybody can pick up an unread copy and quote from the convenient line - a totally pointless exercise which I have no intention in taking part in.
Deuscher to a unique approach to the famine which you have ben unable to identify, despite your claims of "having read both"
We went throuhght this interminably, to my eternam shame - why the **** did I bother arguing with someone who as such a crass grasp of hitory as a whole as to write
"Robert Conquest's biography of Stalin has superseded those mentioned by Jim"
History isn't like remakes of movies - historians are seldom, if ever, "superseded" by later ones.
In this case, I mentioned three authors, each bringing unique experiences to the sunbject - Trotsy was a victim of Stalin, Deuscher was a contemporary of the period in question and made a profound of all all the leaders of the Revolution, Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin, and Vinagradov was a Soviet military man turned historian who had full access to the Soviet archives
To suggest that these writers we superseded by anybody is a crass misundertsnding of how history works
You have quoted grabbed hastily-sought pieces to back up an argument on a subject you have proved you knk SFA about
Go away and swat flies or something
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:12 AM

History isn't like remakes of movies - historians are seldom, if ever, "superseded" by later ones.

They are when vast amounts of new information is released.

Re that superseded biography. Remember this post of mine?

Re Deutscher, you asked for stuff about the famine, and I gave you a quote.
Stalin's young wife killed herself because she could not live with the guilt and horror of what he was doing.
you don't intend to bother reading even the section on the Ukraine
There is no such section.
Have YOU read the book?

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 07:18 AM

"Re Deutscher, you asked for stuff about the famine, and I gave you a quote."
If you think that the quote you gave sums up what Deuscher said about the famine , I should scramble through the index again ans see exactly what he wrote
Deuscher examined the whole question of the Ukrain in context of Stalin's life - he didn't isolate the Ukraine, it was part of the e
ntire picture
For Zhrist's sake, make an effoert and read the ***** thing through.
Your cut-'n-paste approach to history has got you into enough trouble
There is around a third of a clumn of reference to the Ukrain in Deuscher's biograpy which is spread over at least twenty pages - and that is the tip of the iceberg - the subject of the famine spread much further than that.
THere were no new revelations - the archives on Stalinism were opened when Khrushchev denounced Stalin and Conquest (CMG, OBE, FBA, FAAAS, FRSL, FBISE), a member of the British establishment, based his work on previous ones, bringing his own Cold War agenda to it.
That might make for good propaganda, but it certainly doesn't make for good history
Having read several of his books, including The Great Terror', I have no arguments with most of his facts, just the conclusion he draws from them, but not having read them, how would you know that.
Game over Keith - I'm not falling into another of your black holes and fucking up another thread with your agenda-based ignorance - go read these books in full - all of them, if you want to discuss them.
I ask again, what is the basic point on which Deuscher and Conquest differs - it leaps out of the pages if you care to read thaem
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 09:18 AM

Back to sanity
Robo
It is a more than a little stupid to attempt to assess the worth of various philosophies and systems using examples like the one you have chosen considering the track record of all of them
Your Otto Wambier example is far outweighed by continuing atrocities carried out by Western 'Democracies' or their support of extremist regimes which range from Papa Doc through to selling equipment to the Saudis and propping up Assad – that period takes in support for the torturing Greek Colonels and Thatcher's confession that the policies of the mass murdering Pinochet regime was 'her idea of democracy'
Our Prime Minister attended the funeral of the Patriarch of the present Saudi regime at the same time as a journalist was being administered 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn by that regime – hardly a thing for a Government leader to "pay his respects to".
"Different countries, different times" doesn't hack it as an excuse when things haven't basically changed over the decades.
We are now stuck in the middle of an oil war that is leading to the "mass murder of defenceless civilians" and our measured inaction on and support for monsters like Assad is filling body bags daily and has le to the rise of a formidable terrorist army.
We call our brand of state terrorism, defence of democracy, elsewhere (like Israel/Gaza) it his described as "defence"
Our economies have now taken in the selling of arms to some of the worst regimes on the planet, some of which have even made their way into the hands of Isis.
Atrocities and the slaughter of innocent civilians has now become a way of life and sanitised by our language – "friendly fire", "collateral damage", "extraordinary rendition – they've even managed to make it sound like an aqua –sport with "water-boarding".
All systems can be accused of excesses and atrocities in pursuit of their goals, some justified, some not – the Cold War produced a great deal of distorted information from both sides.
It is facile to simple put these things down to political and economic systems – maybe they are, but you can only know that by examining the raison d'etre of each system – that is not "throwing spaghetti" it's lifting the stones to see what's underneath
That's a reduced version of what I tried to post earlier – will try to filling the gaps alter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 11:36 AM

Jim,
claim of having read Deuscher yet being totally unable to anser a basic question on his approach

If you make false accusations against me, do not be surprised to have your lies exposed for what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 11:59 AM

All three of you are possibly building a super structure to exhibit many facts ,ideas and philosophies and allow, no not allow...force new thinking.

What certainly will cloud exploration is a belief in patriotism.
To see clearly from a higher perspective I believe we must divest ourselves of obedience to a mind set of 'my side'. Creating a blank slate may be impossible due to our upbringing but could be intellectually important. I know I am biased toward democracy.

Professors,

At the risk of being called a moron and deemed facile without a full command of an expansive bibliography - I would look to Psychology and Math to point a way forward from historic mistakes because a single leader model is just evil. Evil as a single super computer to govern the release of a nuclear holocaust. Simply said divided power and guesses are always more dependable even when guessing the number of beans in a jar by by many individuals. Yes any cave man moron would agree bully dictators-bad, democracy-good, unless they are paid to believe otherwise. Do you believe the US Constitution can defend against a potential elected dictator?

What are your ideas concerning alternative leadership models assuming we have better paths to choose ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 01:05 PM

"If you make false accusations against me, "
?????
You are not threatening to read a book are yiu - heaven forfend
"Do you believe the US Constitution can defend against a potential elected dictator?"
I think the increased use of populism as an election ploy in what has increasingly become a divided society makes it not only possible but quite likely
Germany became an elected fascist state following a war, a demoralised working class thanks to the defeat of a revolution, several economic crises and a scapegoat in the form of The Jews.
Several of those requirements are now in place in the West - a moot point whether the oil adventures and the rise of Isis constitute a war
Look at the close shaves with extremist right contenders in France and Austria, with others waiting in the wings - where next?
"Professors"
.... speaking as a retired electrician with a lifelong interest in traditional music, of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:23 PM

Jim:

I feel for what it is to lose a post. I started my last longish post a couple days ago in a posh Anchorage Starbucks, swatted a mosquito as big as my knuckle then found I'd lost my post. For some reason when I type up a long paragraph, the computer will select a large patch of it and if I hit one other key it evaporates. The hazards of using an old laptop with an off-center touchpad.
Anyhow, while I think there are definite differences between societies, as I have already posted, I could add that from my point of view many supposed democracies, hence Democracy, are under severe challenge right now. Zimbabwe has long been a depressive regime under the over-long lifespan of Mugabe. South Africa is underachieving under the corrupt ANC. North Africa is full of frightful killer regimes. Venezuela has been ruined by Chavez and his heir. The Phillipines have elected, literally, a mass killer who is imprisoning his political opponents, and in Turkey the secular legacy of Kemal Atatuk is being corrupted and is falling to the dictatorial Erdogan.
In Russia the ex-KGB agent running the show is perpetrating a rule by mafia, and of the once Socialist Republics many have gone under the sway of strongmen.
China is sort of in a netherworld, by form maintaining a Communist vener, but in reality woshipping the almighty dollar and going through the motions of fighting corrupt officialdom. Is Vietnam doing the same?
Funny how the countries once colonized or occupied by the English have maintained or strengthened their modicums of constitutional government. Does Ireland count?

Other interesting books of or for these times:

All the King's Men by the poet Robert Penn Warren. (Very) loosely based on the career of Huey Long of Louisiana.
Dark Horse by Doug Richardson. Story of a political race in Texas where one of the candidates has no behaviorial boundries. Kind of a guilty pleasure novel.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 09:27 PM

I agreed with every single point in robomatic's most recent post.
Could all these facts I agree with be a product of exposure to the same propaganda, party line and the same news machinery or is the ideology and information that perfectly aligned?

Perhaps in this crazy era of fake news I am becoming too suspicious.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


Jim unlike you, my reading a book is a very serious associative and strenuous exercise. Thank you for your recommendations.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 04:38 AM

Sorry
No progress with this - just repetitive stonewalling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 06:18 AM

"Jim unlike you, my reading a book is a very serious associative and strenuous exercise. "
Sorry Don
I didn't realise you were so familiar with my readings habits
I started to read regularly around the age of 12 and since then I cannot remember when I haven't had a book on the go.
I confess I tend to take less time over John Grisham or J G Sansom than I do over Dickens or Hardy, but I take all books I wish to retain very seriously - I am in the habit of taking notes from those that spill over into my personal interests, like traditional music or politics.
A little arrogant and disparaging, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 08:33 AM

Reading is a humbling experience for me but I don't want to go down that boring dyslexic road again. If anything I am lucky.

In sheer numbers of victims killed by Stalin's Gulags, Salt Mines and Siberian work camps, is it true he surpassed the holocaust by Germany?

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 08:37 AM

Yes Don, by a considerable margin.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 09:35 AM

The Gulags, Salt Mines and Siberian work camps were not his - they were an established Russian form of punishment and suppressing offten - fine when the Tsar was running them apparently but condemned under Soviet control
There is no record of how many were sent there because that opposed Stalin or how many were criminals or opponents of the state wishing to bring back the old system... or whatever
Stalin may have used them to dispose of opponents, but to say those opponents surpassed the numbers of the Holocaust was nonsense.
The greatest number of fatalities under Stalin were though incompetence and the mishandling of national crises - certainly not deliberate suppression of opposition.
Stalin regarded the left as much as an enemy as he did the right - he destroyed Socialism, he in no way represented it.
The numbers game is nonsense anyway - the Ukraine famine was no different than the Irish one - both were mismanaged - but even that is a complex issue.
The "democratic nations"
There is evidence that the Irish famine was deliberately mismanaged to solve "The Irish Problem" - the same cannot be said about the Soviet one - no proof exists that it was anything other than a bungled job under extraordinarily difficult circumstances.
I have no doubt that the usual suspect with claim this to be a defence of Stalin - it is not
I detest Stalin for his destruction of teh Socialist dream, but the 14 countries who provided support for those who would re-establish the old order (coincidentally!! the same people who regarded "New Germany as a bulwark against Communism") must share part of the blame for what happened etween the Wars in the Soviet Union
The whole period is incredibly complex and cennot be dealt with by out of context cut-'n-pastes and soundbites)   
Read Deuscher (in context of all his books) or Trotsy (history of teh revolution and biography of Stalin, or Vinagradov's biographies of the manin leader and his "Empire")
A lorra, lorra reading, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll