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Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill

Sarah the flute 06 May 17 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 06 May 17 - 08:28 AM
Sarah the flute 07 May 17 - 01:10 PM
Sarah the flute 11 May 17 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 11 May 17 - 06:37 PM
Sarah the flute 11 May 17 - 07:58 PM
Nigel Paterson 12 May 17 - 04:20 AM
Sarah the flute 13 May 17 - 08:43 AM
Nigel Paterson 14 May 17 - 06:32 AM
Nigel Paterson 17 May 17 - 06:34 AM
Nigel Paterson 25 May 17 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,henryp 26 May 17 - 03:05 AM
Joe Offer 26 May 17 - 03:12 AM
Nigel Paterson 26 May 17 - 04:58 AM
GUEST,henryp 26 May 17 - 07:04 PM
Joe Offer 26 May 17 - 11:27 PM
Nigel Paterson 27 May 17 - 03:58 AM
Joe Offer 16 Jun 17 - 02:23 AM
Sarah the flute 16 Jun 17 - 03:54 PM
Joe Offer 17 Jun 17 - 02:57 AM
Sarah the flute 20 Jun 17 - 06:33 PM
ripov 20 Jun 17 - 07:51 PM
GUEST,henryp 21 Jun 17 - 06:24 PM
Sarah the flute 22 Jun 17 - 07:08 AM
Will Fly 22 Jun 17 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,henryp 22 Jun 17 - 09:56 AM
Sarah the flute 22 Jun 17 - 09:58 AM
Sarah the flute 02 Jul 17 - 05:22 AM
Sarah the flute 04 Jul 17 - 09:36 AM
Sarah the flute 06 Jul 17 - 07:18 PM
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Subject: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 06 May 17 - 05:14 AM

On Friday 12th May Morrigan will be performing in the afternoon at Leith Hill Place near Dorking, Surrey concentrating on our new repertoire of songs collected by Ralph Vaughan Williams. This is the house where he grew up and is a really interesting venue and has his piano on display. You have the added bonus of hearing us sing and play so a brilliant idea for a day out and educational too !!! We will be repeating the day on 12th July with the added bonus of an evening concert - a date for the diary.

Details here


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 May 17 - 08:28 AM

I'm playing Dorking Folk Club on May 10th. I'll give it a plug for you. Why don't you come down?
regards to all


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 07 May 17 - 01:10 PM

Would love to come to Dorking which is not that far away for me at least but sadly Wednesday is our last big rehearsal for Friday
Hope to catch up with you again soon Nick and hope you get a good crowd for Dorking. If you can do a plug for us that would be grand


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 11 May 17 - 08:40 AM

It's tomorrow

Second date is actually 7th July now


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 May 17 - 06:37 PM

I gave it a plug on my gig in Dorking. They seemed quite interested. You ought to go down and give them a floorspot I had a great time there.


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 11 May 17 - 07:58 PM

Thanks Nick so sorry we couldn't get down to see you Yes we have done a couple of floor spots there a couple of years ago but although we had interest from quite a few of the audience the main organisers were nor that interested so we didn't go back. Maybe the organisers have changed now so it might be worth another shot!

Many thanks again and do let us know where you are playing because we will definitely come along if we can


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 12 May 17 - 04:20 AM

Sarah, first of all, I hope you have a wonderful gig at Leith Hill tonight. Vaughan Williams is top of my list of British composers who worked so hard to collect, preserve & give new life to, the songs of the people. I was born just a mile or two away from where RVW began collecting: Herongate in Essex.
                               Musically,
                                                Nigel Paterson (The Halliard).


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 13 May 17 - 08:43 AM

That's interesting Nigel. We did quite a few songs collected at the Old Dog pub near Herongate in our slot. Do you have any history of the pub by any chance. I looked online and see it is still going but wondered if there is any RVW memorabilia inside. We repeat our performance on 7th July and will also be doing an evening concert so anything anecdotal we can put into the talk bit would be great. It went really well yesterday and we are now talking about doing a choral workshop (but a folky one) in the autumn at Leith Hill Place


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 14 May 17 - 06:32 AM

I can't help you with 'The Old Dog' but I found this in Michael Kennedy's definitive book: 'The Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams' (O.U.P. 1966): "Vaughan Williams began to collect in earnest on 4th December, 1903...the tune...was the beautiful 'Bushes & Briars' & he found it at Ingrave, near Brentwood..." (p29). Here are a few more songs RVW collected at the same date & time: 'The Storm', 'Princess Royal', 'Here comes little David', 'The cruel Father & the affectionate Lover', 'The Sheffield Apprentice', 'It's of a fair young Damsel' [Banks of Sweet Dundee] (Appendix 2, p648). There are a dozen or so more songs in the Appendix. I bought my copy of Kennedy's book, way back in the 60s. Hopefully, it's still available. I wish you every success with your music making,
                               Musically,
                                              Nigel Paterson.


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 17 May 17 - 06:34 AM

One boost.


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 25 May 17 - 06:23 AM

Dear Sarah the Flute, a brief acknowledgement of the research I did on your behalf would be much appreciated,
                              Musically,
                                             Nigel.


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 26 May 17 - 03:05 AM

Nigel, your posts are very much appreciated.

And here is an old one from Joe Offer;

Subject: ADD Version: Bushes and Briars
From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Dec 03 - 12:42 PM

The notes in the Digital Tradition certainly are misleading. I wonder where they came from. for that matter, where did the text and tune come from? The first tune Mick posted above is the one found in Bushes and Briars, Folk Songs Collected by Ralph Vaughan Williams (Roy Palmer, 1983).

Jim Dixon's text above is the one Palmer used in the book - although it appears that it was Vaughan-Williams himself who mated the text to the tune. Note that in the Palmer book, The verses are split differently, and the last line of the verse is repeated. Here are the notes from Palmer:

In the late autumn of 1903, after giving a lecture on folk song at Brentwood (Essex), Vaughan Williams was approached by two middle-aged ladies. They explained that their father, the Vicar of Ingrave, was about to give a tea-party for some old people in the village, who might conceivably know some songs. Vaughan Williams accepted an invitation to attend, met various singers, and returned the following day, 4 December, 1903, to note 26 songs.

Up to that time, he wrote: 'I knew and loved the few English folk songs which were then available in printed collections, but I only believed in them vaguely, just as the layman believes in the facts of astronomy; my faith was not yet active.'

When Vaughan Williams heard 'Bushes and Briars' he 'felt it was something he had known all his life'. It was the first folk song he noted, only three months after Cecil Sharp's first, 'The Seeds of Love'. The singer was a seventy-year-old labourer, Charles Pottipher, who, when asked about this and other of his songs, said: 'If you can get the words the Almighty will send you the tune.'

Vaughan Williams took down the melody, commenting: 'It is impossible to reproduce the free rhythm and subtle portamento effects of this beautiful tune in ordinary notation. 'He noted the words of the first verse only, later completing the text from a Broadside issued by Fortey of Seven Dials.


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 17 - 03:12 AM

Sarah, I wanted to update the thread title since 12 May is past. Has the second performance been changed to 7 July?
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 26 May 17 - 04:58 AM

henryp...thank you & the extra detail from Roy Palmer's 1983 publication makes fascinating reading. Michael Kennedy makes mention of the Vicar of Ingrave, the tea party & the singing of Charles Pottipher, but omits the quotations from RVW & Pottipher, both of which add so much to a seminal moment in British music.
                                                             Nigel.


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs 12th May
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 26 May 17 - 07:04 PM

Thank you, Nigel, but the credit should go to Roy Palmer and Joe Offer. We were privileged to accompany Roy and Pat Palmer to book launches. And we learned of their travels on postcards from remote points like Ushant, Ischia and Cape Trafalgar.

Roy would send me all sorts of newspaper cuttings and, if I was lucky, one of the books that he had received for review. And whenever I told him anything, he would listen politely before inevitably answering, "I know."


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 17 - 11:27 PM

I didn't hear back from Sarah, so I'll rely on the Website (click), which says:
    On Friday, 7 July The Morrigan Singers will be returning to Leith Hill Place for an evening performance of folk songs collected by the composer, Ralph Vaughan Williams
Wish I could be there.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 27 May 17 - 03:58 AM

henryp & Joe, thank you both for transporting me back to my college days. Ralph Vaughan Williams was little more than a name, garnered from high school until I began my studies in '68. It was then that I began to form an understanding of the importance & significance of Folk Song; some 'flesh on the bones' of my earlier years in the UK Folk Clubs.
                                                                                                             Nigel.


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:23 AM

refresh. Wish I could be there.


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:54 PM

Sorry all I've been travelling around for work and staying in places with no internet and then daughter's wedding last weekend so I missed the updates on this post but Joe has kindly PMed me and updated.

Thank you so much for your research - very much appreciated and we will certainly be adding bits to our introductions to the songs. We have also been looking at the digitised manuscripts available online although RVW handwriting is an enigma!

We have also just heard that we should be able to run some workshops around the RVW songs over the weekend of the Tenterden Festival in October and probably a concert for participants too so one for the diary

Cheers

Sarah


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 02:57 AM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 06:33 PM

Bump


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: ripov
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 07:51 PM

As a classical musician who has "crossed over", I have always been saddened by the refusal of folk musicians to play any of the tunes VW wrote out for orchestra, 'seventeen come sunday' etc. And I met a lady in Dorchester whio said I was the first folk musician she had met who knew the folk tunes Bartok had used!
Why must we keep this divide?


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:24 PM

Musicians are happy to play the tunes, aren't they?

But are we allowed to adapt the arrangements of RVW?

If not, it rather limits the opportunities to play them.


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 07:08 AM

I think many of the RVW orchestral tunes have to be adapted simply because many folk instruments are not fully chromatic. We thought about including some of the classical arrangements when putting our programme together but then realised it was going to be quite difficult for the folk instruments we had and if we used classical instruments eg piano, Boehm flute then it offered little over going to a full orchestral performance. So we decided that trying to perform the songs and tunes in a way that would appeal to both folk and classical genre audiences was the way to go


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 08:24 AM

An interesting concept: arrangements of folk tunes that can't be played "as is" because some folk instruments aren't fully chromatic.

You could be perverse and argue that if the "folk" instruments can't be used to play folk tunes, then they're not folk instruments. Are we talking just free reeds here? As it happens, I don't consider concertinas and melodeons as necessarily "folk" instruments - just populat instruments of comparatively recent origin, (by comparison with a fiddle or even a guitar) which have been adopted to play some tunes in the folk repertoire. Nothing wrong with that, by the way, but they can be somewhat restricting.

If the instruments can't play the tunes, then don't use them (he says mischievously). After all, the original singers of these songs just sang what they wanted to, probably without thinking of chromaticism.

Just a gentle observation - I hope the occasion is a great success for you!


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 09:56 AM

Alternatively, you could argue that the arrangements were not folk arrangements!

RVW's first published work was his composition and arrangement of a tune for Linden Lea, the poem by William Barnes.

However, Ursula Vaughan Williams was unwilling to give her permission for Simon Mayor and Hilary Jones to adapt his arrangement.

Their alternative was to write a - rather nice - new tune.


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 09:58 AM

No it's not the folk tunes I mean - most of the originals are fine on the instruments we have - it is the Vaughan Williams arrangements of the tunes that fly off beyond the range of the instrument or have been placed into different keys or have included notes that a chromatic instrument could cope with better. Simple system flutes, whistles, pipes can get around this to some extent by just choosing an instrument in a different key but you can't really change instrument midway through a bar!!! well you could but it would need some nifty hand movements

The majority of what we are doing will be 4 part harmony arrangements for acapella voices but we will have a few with instruments and trying to do a happy medium between folk and classical eg using piano, melodeon and simple system flute in Lovely on the Water, whistle, melodeon and guitar on Horn Fair


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 02 Jul 17 - 05:22 AM

This Friday

Free for NT members in the afternoon and then evening concert 6-8pm


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 04 Jul 17 - 09:36 AM

It's on Friday not long to go now
Details here
Leith Hill Place


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Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Folk Songs-7 July 2017-Leith Hill
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 06 Jul 17 - 07:18 PM

Tomorrow!


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