 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 May 17 - 05:54 AM "If I said that, QUOTE ME liar." This is your response to Lox's challenge on your implant claim Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 25 Feb 11 - 10:28 AM "Your position that British Pakistanis struggle daily to suppress a desire that they, and no other people have," I am sure other people do have it, especially if living a sexually repressed lifestyle." Not only does it attack Pakistanis, it implicates other racial groups - like Rumanians Don't call me a liar Keith and stop humiliating yourself - it's embarrassing Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 May 17 - 05:18 AM Er, you did base your rather persistent attack on travellers on a very small number of convictions, Keith. As a man who purports to come from a scientific background you should realise that using a tiny handful of cases to depict an "over-representation" is statistically extremely unsafe. In fact, you'd have been laughed out of the lab for doing that at my university. You and bobad did the same thing with regard to the numbers of alleged antisemitic hate attacks on Jewish people in the UK, relatively tiny set alongside the overall numbers of Jews and the population of the country as a whole. That isn't to say that the crimes aren't despicable, but you misused the figures in order to get us to think that there's a terrible crisis around antisemitic hate crime, which there isn't. Well you're not the only one around here from a scientific background. You may think you can fool some of the people some of the time... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 May 17 - 05:00 AM Three Girls is on BBC One at 9pm on May 16, May 17 and May 18. It about the Rochdale abuse scandal. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 May 17 - 04:47 AM Jim, You said that the rest of them had to suppress their cultural urges - which is worse If I said that, QUOTE ME liar. Your suggestion goes further to suggest every single Muslim is a timebomb waiting to go off If I have ever suggested that, QOUTE ME liar. I said repeatedly that religion was not involved, liar. You base this, as you did with the Travellers, on the criminal actions of a few young men - you smeared an entire culture. I did no such thing. I just referred to the fact of an over-representation, because it was relevant to the discussion. Senoufou, has Jim given you any reason to believe what he says about me? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 May 17 - 04:17 AM "I say that only a tiny minority are involved." You said that the rest of them had to suppress their cultural urges - which is worse You can spot pedophiles and deal with them Your suggestion goes further to suggest every single Muslim is a timebomb waiting to go off You base this, as you did with the Travellers, on the criminal actions of a few young men - you smeared an entire culture. No other explanation? That compounds your single handed efforts As one of your so-called witnesses, Jack Straw said, "testosterone fizzing young men acting as any others acted at their age. No racism in suggesting that an entire race/religion is tended towards underage sex because of their culture. It's the oldest racial smear in the book - "Black men with large penises after our women" - no difference. "over six years old." And you still defend it - my point exactly. It is no vendetta Keith - your bigotry and intolerance runs right though your attitude to other cultures, including refugees and immigrants who are 'a security risk' - the enemy within I don't try to make it about you - I raise it here as an example of the bigoted behaviour of a declared Christian. You offend all Christians when you describe yourself as one. As much as I refuse to believe the myths, that is not the Christianity I have become accustomed to from real Christians Where is your love of humanity, your Christian charity? Have you any idea of the danger attitudes like yours open up for Traveller families You need a lesson in helping clean up a caravan after a fire-bomb attack, or seeing a family driven out from their home in mid-winter. Last year, a caravan fire killed ten members of one family The good Christian townspeople refused to allow the survivors to be temporarily settled on a vacant field - they have since been camped on an industrial car-park with no sanitation, running water or electricity. Gives a whole new meaning to "Suffer the children". Christian - I don't think so ! Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Senoufou Date: 12 May 17 - 03:45 AM If what you say about Keith is true Jim, and I have no reason to doubt it, he sounds like a cocktail composed of UKIP, the Daily Mail and the KuKluxKlan. It's simplistic and wrong to draw ridiculous conclusions from the behaviour of a tiny minority of a sector of a population. All Muslim men certainly aren't paedophiles. All travellers aren't slave-owners. All gay men aren't infected with nasty diseases. All religious people aren't brainwashed or bigoted. But what one CAN say is that everyone is a human being. Not an alien. And it's better to seek the similarities rather than the differences. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 May 17 - 03:24 AM Jim, The implant quote is the only one you have given. In it I refer to the people who ascribed the offending to culture, which I admitted knowing nothing about. I say I only believe them because of their credibility and in the absence of any other theory. I say that only a tiny minority are involved. There is no racism or bigotry in that quote, and it is over six years old. You have no case against me. It is just a vendetta. You try to make this another thread about me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 May 17 - 02:52 AM "It's called puberty, right?" Maybe Joe - can't remember that far back! Nothing to do with culture and certainly not confined to any particular group. "Bill Maher" I prefer "if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: bobad Date: 11 May 17 - 07:10 PM I don't ridicule religion, it ridicules itself. -Bill Maher |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 May 17 - 05:39 PM Whaddya mean, "cause," Joe? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Joe Offer Date: 11 May 17 - 04:07 PM Darn. And all this time, I thought everybody had an implant to cause underage sex. It's called puberty, right? -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 17 - 02:39 PM You've had the "implant" quote a dozen or more times; you've had the "brainwashing" accusation, and you don't have to go far to find the "over-representation of slavery" stupidity Which of these are you actually claiming you didn't say? Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 May 17 - 02:32 PM Jim, The issue of your bigotry and racism cmes up whenever it is relevant If you are not lying about me, QUOTE ME! I do not mean a lying misrepresentation of what I said, but an actual quote of me saying something bigoted or racist, liar. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 May 17 - 01:09 PM Homosexual "marriage" involves completely redefinition of a social institution to accommodate a sexual minority. It encompasses the redefinition of marriage in many ways ...the new monogamy, open marriages etc....which are common within the active male homosexual community. If you're telling me that we are redefining marriage, then it's incumbent on you to tell us where the original definition came from, if it came from anywhere at all. So tell us: who first pontificated that marriage had to be between a man and a woman, and on what authority was he speaking? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 May 17 - 12:18 PM Any sexual activity involving the anus and lower bowel ought be treated carefully as a health and safety hygiene risk. Best safe practise should be prioritised and followed at all times... Personally, it's not my cup of tea, but I'm well aware the extent to which American male heterosexuals are obsessed with it. Seemingly prizing it over vaginal sex... Porn must obviously have played a part in normalizing this, but I wonder to what extent the Catholic Church's age old ruling banning contraception has played it's part over countless generations...??? It's a bit rich all these straight & christian men bumming their women, then complaining how ungodly it is for gays to be doing exactly the same with each other... 🙄 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 17 - 11:46 AM "Why will you never just discuss the issues" The issue here is Christianity and I have just used you as an example of one. The issue of your bigotry and racism cmes up whenever it is relevant "I do not believe I have ever "flaunted" my faith." You have here and you have elsewhere. In one of our arguments you actually said you'd pray for me. You targetted Muslims in a way nobody else has ever done in my experience - to describe the entire masculine population of a community in Britain as meing "culturally implanted" with a tendency to have underage sex is, in my experience unprecedented You claim you did so because others said the same yet you have never produced anybody saying suh a thing - never. Had any public figure ever made such a statement publicly they would heve been pilloried and possibly prosecuted - yet you persist in claiming they did and still refuse to produce such a quote. Pat and I worked with Travellers for three decades and we saw the effects that prejudice and hatred had on their lives You take the actions of five criminals from a single family and smear the entire Travelling Community by suggesting that their criminal actions were a massive over-representation of slave-owning in the Travelling community How is that not persecuting an impoverished section of society? You claim that "generations of Irish schoolchildren were brainwashed to hate Britain" Members of my family were brought up under the Irish educational system - I now live in Ireland and am in daily contact with people brought up under that system When you claimed an Irish historian inspired you to make such a claim I went and got her book from the Library and I explained exactly what she said You have ignored every single thing I have said based on what I have read and what I am personally experiencing You have never at any time produced a single example of how that "education to hate" manifests itself. You still claim that generations of Irish schoolchildren were brainwashed into hating Britain. I can think of no other term to describe you behaviour to all of these people other than totally irrational blind hatred. The fact that I have had experience of all of these people, Muslims, Travellers and the Irish, makes me personally angry. The fact that I was brought up to respect all people and all cultures makes your behaviour outrageous to my personal outlook on life. The fact that you claim to be a Christian makes me angry on behalf of my family, friends and acquaintances, living and dead, who are or were Christians. You insult them all. Your bigotry and hatred runs though everything you post on these subjects. You have an explanation of my reaction to your intolerance - there's an end to it. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Greg F. Date: 11 May 17 - 11:45 AM Here we go again with Mudcat's own number one homophobic bigot spewing the same old vomit. Give over, Ake, eh? We all know your hideous opinions on this matter all too well. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: akenaton Date: 11 May 17 - 11:41 AM Sorry Sen, but you are simply wrong. Civil rights for Afro Americans was about discrimination on grounds of skin colour, clearly wrong. Homosexual "marriage" involves completely redefinition of a social institution to accommodate a sexual minority. It encompasses the redefinition of marriage in many ways ...the new monogamy, open marriages etc....which are common within the active male homosexual community. It should also be taken into account that male homosexual behaviour results in extremely bad sexual health figures. It is not a positive lifestyle.....Steve as usual is talking bullshit. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Stu Date: 11 May 17 - 11:25 AM We believe the definition of marriage is one white man to one white woman. That does not make us |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Senoufou Date: 11 May 17 - 11:05 AM Banning gay people from marrying in Church (or mosque etc) is no different in my view to the dreadful treatment of black people during apartheid and segregation. "We whites can use these toilets, these buses and these schools, but you blacks cannot." Any discrimination is 'phobic'. As Steve so rightly says, gay marriages have no effect on other folk at all. It's none of anyone's business if two people of the same sex want to commit themselves in marriage to each other, in a religious setting or otherwise. In fact, any public statement of commitment and permanence of a relationship will stabilise society in general. It must be so hurtful and provoke feelings of bitterness and rejection to be refused the privileges of a religious marriage on the basis of one's sexuality. And to be refused by the very people who claim to promote love and goodwill is doubly disgraceful. It smacks of hypocrisy... No, that's wrong. It IS hypocrisy! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 May 17 - 11:04 AM Jim, Your nasty, personal vendetta against me is reaching new heights. Why will you never just discuss the issues instead of smearing and attacking other contributors? He flaunts his 'Christianity' like an expensive Burberry jacket while at the same time targetting some of the poorest and most vulnerable members of our society with his hatred and bigotry (he will low ask for examples - he has been given enough of them to choke a donkey) I do not believe I have ever "flaunted" my faith. Please provide an example, and please stop making personal accusations without supporting them with anything. You claim to have given examples, but you have not. I do not believe I have ever "targeted" an members of our society. Again, please quote me doing that. An actual quote please and not just your interpretation of what I said. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 May 17 - 09:38 AM .. and on the subject of christians [catholics] and gay marriage.... Anti-Gay Bigots Play The Victim |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 May 17 - 09:22 AM "...the reason some of us put commas round the word is we believe the definition of marriage is one man to one woman . That does not make us homophobic" Yes it does. Absolutely it does. As in "I'm not a racist, but..." By declaring yourself against gay marriage you are advocating denying human rights that you yourself enjoy to gay people. Gay marriage does you personally absolutely no harm. It doesn't impinge on you at all. It's got nothing to do with you or me. Your objection to it is predicated on your anti-gay prejudice, which you appear unable to own up to, and trying to hide behind a cloak of respectability that you think is provided by religions declaring that "marriage is between one man and one woman" (perhaps you'd care to tell us where that edict comes from, by the way) marks you out as hypocritical and bigoted. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: akenaton Date: 11 May 17 - 08:18 AM You are quite correct Pete, I am an "athenostic", veering to the atheist side but I do not recognise homosexual "marriage" in fact it is not legally recognised in one part of the UK and many parts of the US. Worldwide it is barely recognised at all |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 17 - 08:08 AM "and say that they were acting against the teaching of Jesus." They were acting under the power that their relgion gave them and the church colluded in their crimes and even allowed them to continue - first in other parishes, and eventually in third world countries. It's immaterial to compare this with the actions of atheists Paedophelia is wrong, whoever does it. It is pure evil when people used the position their religion gives them to carry out their crimes. It is grimly ludicrous that a church that can condemn a young woman who has "sinned" to a life of brutality and slavery while at the same time condoning and hiding the ruining of young peoples lives by the thousands. It is significant that the Clerical abuses scandal has brought into question every single aspect of the relationship between the state and the church - a question that is long overdue being addressed. Morality, as far as I am concerned, needs to be based our relationship with our fellow human beings - not on any belief or superstition, just how we treat each other The Church's long term attitude to morality has been hypocritical in the extreme I get tired of saying this - peoples' beliefs should be their own consciously arrived at decision - not imposed by a body that has greater power than any other in our society - the power over our minds, virtually from the time we become conscious. I don't choose to target Keith and his ilk randomly. He flaunts his 'Christianity' like an expensive Burberry jacket while at the same time targetting some of the poorest and most vulnerable members of our society with his hatred and bigotry (he will low ask for examples - he has been given enough of them to choke a donkey) If I though for one minute that his behaviour is representative of Christianity as a whole, I would campaign to my last breath to have such a philosophy banned from the face of the planet. He is typical of the worst aspects of mealy-mouthed Christian hypocrisy Ake is similar with his support of the institution of the church and his archaic hatred for large sections of his fellow man. They are both extremely useful and conveniently available examples of what is wrong with many religions nowadays It's not religion that I disapprove of - but some of the believers really do get up my nose Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: DMcG Date: 11 May 17 - 08:03 AM "We should be teaching philosophy in our schools from primaey level onwards." I agree - it is a vastly underrated subject. But I am sure there would be a lot of backlash (What's the evidence for this? What is its value on terms of getting a job? And so on) My only experience of schools actually teaching Philosophy was at A level where, as with so many subjects they had filletted it down to the point that all they were interested in was parrotting what various philosphers had said over the ages. Wave goodbye to a pass grade if you attempted to answer by saying what you thought |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Stu Date: 11 May 17 - 07:47 AM "I really don't like being pushed into a defensive posture. I much prefer open discussions where all positions are welcome and respected." I guess we all feel a bit like that in these discussions, and I've been a bit ranty in the past when I've had to deflect some rather supercilious invective. I'm trying hard NOT to react like that anymore. Meanwhile, this thread has been instructive and I've been reading up on Spinoza since he was mentioned in this thread yesterday, and I'm intrigued. Damn, I'd wish I'd had a half-decent education. We should be teaching philosophy in our schools from primary level onwards. "If the Church was to condone homosexual "marriage" Aaaaaaaannnnnnddd out of nowhere, he mentions it again. Really Ake, we understand exactly where you're coming from. Let's park this one mate. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 11 May 17 - 07:39 AM "....turn your back on the truth of evolution ..." Say Steve . Begging the question! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 11 May 17 - 07:37 AM Senoufou , the reason some of us put commas round the word is we believe the definition of marriage is one man to one woman . That does not make us homophobic Except in the minds of those who say they promote free speech - as long as it in agreement with their own views |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 11 May 17 - 07:28 AM So Jim do you think morality is merely what "people" accept . Do you have some other measure of what is moral that is less subjective? And mostly what you call abuse by clergy the Christians here would agree with , and say that they were acting against the teaching of Jesus. Of course if it were atheists doing the sane things , what ultimate authority is there to say they done wrong . And if the majority of people think it is not wrong , would that make it right ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Senoufou Date: 11 May 17 - 07:27 AM Why put marriage into inverted commas when referring to gay couples? They have every right to enjoy the benefits and joys of marriage the same as anyone else. I've always felt the Christian Church is unkind and nasty towards gay people. It's one of their tenets I just can't accept. Islam is even worse. It's absolutely forbidden even to admit to being gay. One would be stoned or worse. These attitudes are one of the reasons I struggle with my faith. It sometimes completely lacks understanding, kindness or benevolence, three things I hold very dear. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 17 - 04:55 AM "Nothing to do with blasphemy, just bitter Fascist ideology." Utter nonsense You choose to ignore the continuing behaviour of the church and advocate that it be allowed to continue That is fascism The people have now voted to accept homosexuality as natural - you continue to pwersecute and insult them That is fascism "Such abominations occur everywhere including secular and atheist states.|" So what - that is no excuse fotr it being allowed to continue here Your excuses for your extremism are immaterial - you are an extremist, one of the worst on this forum Your continuing defence of those horrendous claims are an indication that you still hold those views - you have stated they are yours so take responsibility for believing such shit and stop rerescuting those you don't like or approve of That is sick Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: akenaton Date: 11 May 17 - 04:41 AM The "liberal" attack on conservative social values continues. Nothing to do with blasphemy, just bitter Fascist ideology. If the Church was to condone homosexual "marriage" and ditch its sensible social values, these people would be over it like a rash.....they secretly like religions.......after all they practice one themselves......"liberal" fundamentalism!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Big Al Whittle Date: 11 May 17 - 04:18 AM i suppose every society socialises its citizens in its own specific way. if there were a perfect way, you'd be able to point to a perfect society somewhere on earth, and as far as I'm aware - you can't. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 May 17 - 03:59 AM , go look at the Magdelene Laundries - slave-run industries to punish young women for "sinning", or the industrial shools where children had a twisted form of education physically beaten into them Such abominations occur everywhere including secular and atheist states. Then I imagined the "implant theory" You imagined that it came from me. or the "brainwashed Irish schoolchildren" Again, that was the finding of historians I quoted, not me. or the "over-representation of slave-owners in the Travelling community" It is a fact that Travellers are over-represented in recent (since 2011) cases of slavery. None of that is relevant to this thread. You are just pursuing your ridiculous vendetta. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 17 - 03:25 AM MODERN CHRISTIANITY in ACTION Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 May 17 - 03:24 AM The point is being missed here The problem with religion doesn't lie in people's beliefs, but in the fact that it has been forced down the throats of people for many centuries, right uo to the present day - the church Ireland is still fighting to hold a grip of children's minds though its ownership of schools Fortunately that is a losing battle If you want exaples of the effects of that grip, go look at the Magdelene Laundries - slave-run industries to punish young women for "sinning", or the industrial shools where children had a twisted form of education physically beaten into them It is a bit rich that the Christians (genuine or hypocritical) should complain about being got at. Step aside you people - your day is done - nobody is preventing you from believing what you wish - but stop forcing it on others. Is that really unreasonable. "none of whom I have ever had any issue with." Then I imagined the "implant theory" or the "brainwashed Irish schoolchildren" or the "over-representation of slave-owners in the Travelling community" Want me to put them all up again ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Greg F. Date: 10 May 17 - 08:21 PM But the Christian had only to disagree with the atheist esp on evolutionism and all of a sudden we are disrespecting them .... No, Pete, you're disrespecting reality and intelligence. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Mrrzy Date: 10 May 17 - 07:35 PM Because, Keith, of the terrible harm that ridiculous beliefs cause when reasonable people respect them (the ridiculous beliefs). Mind you not all beliefs are so. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 May 17 - 06:05 PM I have no interest whatsoever in attacking your faith. I have no certainties. And please talk about your faith all you like. Just talk about it, don't try to foist it. If you don't talk about it there's no way we can know how your mind works. Jesus never told you to lie to people in order to get them to follow him. He said let your speech be yea yea, nay nay. Once he was dead he no longer had control over what was written about him, generally many decades later by four men who had never known him. And many other accounts have been suppressed, lest we forget. Turn your back on the truth of evolution and you deserve all the ridicule available. Instead, try to turn your critical faculties back on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 10 May 17 - 05:41 PM Dunno what happened there .........it's getting a bit tiresome the more vocal atheists disclaiming certainty but being certain the bible is just make believe ! And reassuring it's ok for us to have our faith but not to talk about it , as if we served a saviour who told us not to take the gospel into the whole world ! And these more vocal atheists seem to make it their life's mission to attack believers faith, even when their not believing the biblical narrative always as per joe . But the Christian had only to disagree with the atheist esp on evolutionism and all of a sudden we are disrespecting them .... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 May 17 - 05:25 PM What do |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 10 May 17 - 05:19 PM Thing is |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 May 17 - 03:26 PM Well I'm a Mudcat atheist and I don't go around insulting people here because they have a faith to follow. It's what you do with what you've got that's paramount. My strong view is that no-one can claim the slightest justification for trying to spread their personal faith to other people, be they your children or your students or whoever they are. Just remember that faith is belief without evidence. The whole basis of education is to enthuse people about looking for evidence. There is no such thing as a Catholic child or a Muslim child. If you send your child to a school, or a Sunday school, or take them to a service where they will be told that untrue stories are true, you are a hundred times worse than the most insulting atheist you can think of. At least he isn't trying to force young people to accept myth as truth. Yes you can get points across by fables. But your starting point is to say that what I'm about to tell you is a fable, not a true story, though there will be a lesson to learn from it. When Jesus, if he existed, told people parables, the recipients knew they were hearing parables. We live in a world in which hundreds of millions of people think that Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine and raised the dead, finally coming back from the dead himself. That's what the Church wants you to think because that's the way the Church exerts control over you. If you are not telling your vulnerable audience that these are stories, not the truth, you are wicked. You are not trying to propagate deeper truths at all. You are trying to catch people while they are young. I don't care what irrational beliefs people cling to. I'm a football fanatic and I perfectly understand why people need to be allowed to have their own little irrational corner. But I'll never do anyone any harm by supporting Liverpool (doesn't always do my own nerves much good, mind). Persuading people to believe in God by dealing in dishonesty is the very opposite. That's not meant to be an insult. That's meant to be a challenge. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Joe Offer Date: 10 May 17 - 03:24 PM Stu, note that I said many Mudcat atheists paint with a wide brush. Perhaps I should have said many of the most vocal Mudcat atheists paint thusly. There are many Mudcat atheists who can carry on a peaceful and respectful and constructive discussion, and I find them delightful. It's the ones who are constantly on the attack, who make me feel uneasy and unwelcome. And Fry and Hitchens and Dawkins are always on attack mode. I really don't like being pushed into a defensive posture. I much prefer open discussions where all positions are welcome and respected. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Stu Date: 10 May 17 - 02:44 PM Broad brushes indeed. Dawkins is a fundamentalist and not liked by lots of scientists, regardless of whether they have a faith or not as his combative and confrontational manner does more harm than good. Hitchens was more complex character and his atheism was less crusading and more personal in nature; Hitchens was't trying to convert people as he didn't care what people thought, he was just being himself. As for Fry... well, I'm less of a fan than I was. I have no issue at all with his questioning of why god lets innocents suffer (an issue totally avoided by those on this forum who might be able to answer the question), but I'm tired of him as a personality and I wonder if we've overestimated his talents. He's a witty and amusing writer, but is there any more? Not sure. "Mudcat atheists paint their positions with a wide brush, and insult all who have religious inclinations." Well, I don't think they* all do and sometimes you need a wide brush to cover a large area. Let's talk specifics! *I don't count myself as an atheist because I have my own ideas on all this, all though to all the major religions in the world folk like myself are probably indistinguishable from atheists, so feel free to include me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 10 May 17 - 02:30 PM Jim, "Live and let live as harmoniously as possible I say." Unless you are.... Wrong again Jim. I make no such exceptions, and certainly not Muslims, Travellers and Irish none of whom I have ever had any issue with. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Joe Offer Date: 10 May 17 - 01:25 PM Rob Naylor says: But it's the shallow view of God that fundamentalists, creationists etc push forward when trying to promulgate their ideology into education, particularly in the USA but also through things like "ACE" schools in the UK. And I would whole-heartedly join with opposition to any attempts to impose fundamentalism, creationism, and such on the rest of us. But Fry and Hitchens and Dawkins and many Mudcat atheists paint their positions with a wide brush, and insult all who have religious inclinations. Most religious people are just as reasonable and civil and capable, as are most atheists. When any group paints another with a broad brush, the result is alienation. I don't think that's healthy. I feel insulted by the likes of Fry and Hitchens and Dawkins, and rightly so. If their true object of ridicule is fundamentalism and its effects on society, that's another matter. I've taken the time to watch videos from Fry and Hitchens and Dawkins, and I find them to be uniformly insulting. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 17 - 12:14 PM "Live and let live as harmoniously as possible I say." Unless you are an "implanted" Muslim, or a "slave-owning Traveller", or an "brainwashed Irish child" of course of course!! Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Fry Blasphemy From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 May 17 - 11:47 AM The apostrophe goblin's been at it again, I see. |
