Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)

Subject: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: michaelr
Date: 11 May 17 - 07:35 PM

The Silly Sisters records are among my favorites, and I've long wondered about this song. I found this bit (scroll to bottom) about traveler singer Mary Delaney, whose recording (by our own Jim Carroll) may have been the source for SS.

What doesn't compute is the phrase "we'll yodel it over again", which seems very unusual usage for an Irish song. Any clues?

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: michaelr
Date: 11 May 17 - 07:38 PM

Oops - just noticed that that recording, From Puck to Appleby, came out in 2003, long after the Silly Sisters record, so it can't very well have been their source.

But the question remains.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: RTim
Date: 11 May 17 - 07:39 PM

Here is another version from some friends............

Tim Radford

https://thevoxhunters.com/track/968596/what-will-we-do-if-we-have-no-money?feature_id=215461

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Reinhard
Date: 11 May 17 - 11:16 PM

Michael, Mary Delaney's song was first released in 1986 on the VWML cassette "Early in the Month of Spring", well before the Silly Sister's album "No More to the Dance".   And both June Tabor and Peta Webb credit Mary Delaney as their source for this song - June wrote:

"This little piece that Maddy and I sang, collected by [Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie] from the singing of Mary Delaney, is quite light, quite insubstantial in a way, but it's very real. It's talking about begging, keeping on the road, keeping going no matter what happens. It's a lovely piece of Silly Sisterness."

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: michaelr
Date: 12 May 17 - 03:19 PM

Thanks for that info, Reinhard.

I'd really like to know how "yodel" got into an Irish song. Ireland is not one of the countries known for their yodeling traditions.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: michaelr
Date: 13 May 17 - 02:38 PM

bump

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 May 17 - 05:33 AM

Inevitably from Mainly Norfolk - thank you, Reinhard!¬

From Puck to Appleby. Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie commented in the latter's booklet:

"We have not found this song elsewhere, either in print or in a recording, but it bears such a striking resemblance to Mrs Elizabeth Cronin's What Would You Do If You Married a Soldier (Roud 3051) that it is probably a traveller's remake of the same song.

"Mary has a number of similar pieces: I've Buried Three Husbands Already and If Ever You Go to Kilkenny, etc., and, despite the fact that her speciality is the long, free ballad, she takes great pleasure in singing these made-up snatches and often is not able to finish them for laughing."

Personally, I wouldn't analyse the words too deeply.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Reinhard
Date: 14 May 17 - 08:05 AM

Henry, thanks for your praise ;-) Michael did refer to Jim Carroll's comment in his first posting already.

I understand the "yodel it over again" phrase as "we keep on going anyway", but I also have no idea where it is from.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,Peta Webb
Date: 14 May 17 - 05:37 PM

Mary Delaney's 'What will we do when we'll have no money', Roud 16879, as above, on Early, Early in the Spring cassette, 1986 , recorded by Jim Carroll & Pat MacKenzie, repeated on MT Puck to Appleby .Ken Hall & I sang this as a duet on our Fellside CD, 2000 under the title "Yodel it over Again", picking up on this jaunty refrain, thinking of a carefree Traveller couple walking down the road singing. Mary Delaney lived for some years under Hammersmith Flyover, London, could well have heard recordings of yodellers such as Jimmie Rodgers. Have met several Travellers who love American country music. Don't find any problem with this phrase, enjoy singing it !

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,GUEST Texas Jodler
Date: 14 May 17 - 08:13 PM

Yup Peta Webb you have the truth there. We do have Irish Travellers here but mostly on the E Coast, have not seen any here in the west. But there are lots of Americans living like travellers who follow the festival circuit. Jodling is very nice if you practice a bit. Absolutely love Peta's singing, thanks a million for that.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: michaelr
Date: 15 May 17 - 01:46 AM

Thank you all for pitching in. It appears that the song may have been at least in part made up by Mary Delaney, no?

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 15 May 17 - 02:57 AM

https://mainlynorfolk.info/june.tabor/songs/whatwillwedo.html

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 17 - 03:45 AM

Sorry - I missed this earlier
"It appears that the song may have been at least in part made up by Mary Delaney, no?"
I doubt it - it is typical of many 'makkie-ups" that Travels sing
As far as we could find, there are no other recorded version of it, but we were dealing with only a small number and their tradition is very much ignored except by a very few
Tom Munnelly, who recorded them in Ireland for the Folklore Department never came across it either.
I would guess that it is based on Elizabeth Cronin's, "What would you do if you marry a soldier", but I can't confirm that.
She learned it from her father - interestingly (to me at least) she referred to all her Traditional songs as "Me daddie's songs", but when we recorded him, compared to Mary's huge repertoire, he could only remember six.
Mary appeared to be using the term as a description of her estimation of the type of song rather than their actual source
She had twice as many pop and country and western songs which she refused to sing because "they're not the ones you want - I only sing them because that's what the lads ask for down in the pub"
She defined her songs if many revivalists don't (as did Walter Pardon BTW)
To understand the personal significance of What Will You do, you need to know a little about Mary's situation.
She had a life that would have made a great Dostoevsky novel.
Blind from birth, mother of sixteen children, she was abandoned by her husband and left to fend for herself - when we met her, she had a child-in arms.
The authorities, in their wisdom, decided she was unable to cope, so they took all her young children into care - the last time we saw her she had got them all back, one way and another!
She was one of the most self-possessed yet gregarious people we ever met - she loved company and was fiercely proud of her songs - yet willing to sing them for anybody who asked.
When she started to get her children back, she decided to get them educated, so she got the council to find her a flat in Bethnal Green - a somewhat squalid, sparsely furnished echoey cave of a dwelling in which she sat alone each day until the children came home from school at night
We would visit her when we could and she would drag us in - for the company - it was the only time we ever saw her depressed.
We recorded some of her most intense singing at that time - particularly her version of 'Buried in Kilkenny' (Lord Randall) into which she poured all her misery.
That version is available on 'Voice of the People' - her brother can be heard singing it on 'Puck'
I've always looked on 'What Will You Do' as Mary's wry scream of defiance at a life that hadn't treated her too well
She was an uttery amazing and memorable lady - a dear friend who is still sorely missed and fondly remembered - and we never managed to get all her songs.
Some years ago, our friend, radio producer Paula Carroll (no relation) put together three somwehat magnificent radio programmes on our work with Travellers - both Mary and the amazing Mikeen McCarthy from Kerry feature largely on them
If anybody would like a copy I'm happy to Dropbox it to whoever PMs me an e-mail address (but it will have to wait until we return from a family funeral in Liverpool at the end of the week)
Sorry to bang on at such length - nice to know Mary's songs are still remembered - she would have loved that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Mo the caller
Date: 15 May 17 - 04:52 AM

Is it this tune - The Frost is all Over
I was told that the first line 'What would we do if the kettle boiled over' referred to an illegal still which would be noticed if it boiled over.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 17 - 05:09 AM

Same tune as Mrs Cronin's Mo - nad her song follws the same poetic pattern as Mary's
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 May 17 - 05:44 AM

It's the final and title track of a collection of songs from the South Roscommon Singers Circle, sung by Declan Coyne....

Kitty

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 15 May 17 - 05:48 AM

The Dublin group Lankum (formerly Lynched) have been doing this song recently, sung by Radie Peat.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 15 May 17 - 07:15 AM

It's the final and title track of a collection of songs from the South Roscommon Singers Circle, sung by Declan Coyne....

... with yours truly singing harmony, along with Johnny Johnston. I remember it well.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: michaelr
Date: 15 May 17 - 08:26 PM

Jim, thanks for the background on Mary Delaney. Fascinating stuff!

Is that CD still available?

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,Texas Jodler
Date: 16 May 17 - 12:15 AM

"Is it this tune - The Frost is all Over
I was told that the first line 'What would we do if the kettle boiled over' referred to an illegal still which would be noticed if it boiled over. "

Never heard this way of doing 'Paddy's Return' before, and it most certainly isn't "The Frost Is All Over"; which is a seasonal carant about an unfortunate cheeky fox!.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Mo the caller
Date: 17 May 17 - 04:11 PM

from this thread

The Frost is all Over.


Oh, what would you do if you married a soldier?
"What would you if he followed his gun?"
And what would you do if he died on the ocean?
"What would you do, would you marry again?"

And what would you do if the kettle boiled over?
"What would I do but to fill it again?"
And what would you do if the cow ate the clover?
"What would I do but to set it again?"

The praties are dug and the frost is all over
Kitty lie over, next to the wall,
The summer is come and we're all in the clover
Kitty lie over, next to the wall.

The herrings are roasting, the frost is all over
Kitty lie over, close to the wall,
How would you like to be married to a soldier?
Kitty lie over, close to the wall

Nothing about a fox. What is your version?

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,Texas Jodler
Date: 20 May 17 - 12:25 AM

Thanks for posting such and imaginative cobbling together of various bits of songs I recall from the 1950s etc, Irish local carants, if you happen to know what I am talking about.

There used be loads of those back in the pre-recording era when house dancing was popular in Ireland, and it appears little of that survived, as the above mixup clearly shows.

For example, of several there are two carants, equally collectable if I publish, of note. The first goes with the Irish Jig 'The Connaughtman's Rambles', a farmer family ditty about a house dance in an Irish townland of the early 1900s; the other one is an Irish Tinker's lament about being moved on by the Police, or the Guards as they have it, appearing to be from the post WW2 era.

To be perfectly honest, and out of respect for the good native Irish people that shared these, and the carant ' The Frost Is All Over' I do not think it right to publish. Perfectly in line with native Irish today closing the door to outsiders to their folk tradition because of downright theft of tunes/songs/ etc etc.

But thanks for asking.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: rich-joy
Date: 20 May 17 - 12:49 AM

Radie Peat and Lynched, 2016 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbKs2UUXjiA

Mary Delaney :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlTxNgdFhiY

Cheers,
R-J

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 03:18 AM

"Is that CD still available?"
It is Micheal - it's on the Msical Traditions website, but you might try contacting me.
Back again - I'll get down to responding to requests for the programmes
I have to say that the "native Irish today closing the door to outsiders to their folk tradition because of downright theft of tunes/songs/ etc etc." is a total new one on me.
I've never com across a people more generous and proud of their tradition and more willing to share it - that comes from an Englishman whe has worked with the Irish for nearly half a century and has spent thirty years recording their songs, music stories and traditions.
You learn something every day!!
I remember first being introduced to Mary (by Mikeen McCarthy) in the middle of a field in West Drayton, west of London.
There was a railway track serving the West of England a couple of hundred yards away and she had demanded I started recording her songs immediately (while we were walking back to her caravan) - I recorded three songs before we goth there to the accompaniment of the three trains that had passed in that short period.
Mary's sons once told us of a late singing session in a pub in East London when Mary had had to be pulled back into her chair at one o-clock in the morning when she had decided to "phone Jimmy and Pat" because she had remembered some songs she had not yet sung to us.
We have just been recorded for a programme due to be broadcast in the next few weeks on Irish Radio's 'Newsround' - the producer, J J O'Shea took down quite a lot of information on Mary.
Our collection is to be deposited in Limerick University soon (we hope) and there is talk about concentrating on the Traveller material that has yet to be broadcast - a website has been mooted
L.U. had done some magnificent work in researching Traveller culture, particularly with the Dunne Family - they have been instrumental (pun intended) in helping revive the piping tradition among Travellers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: michaelr
Date: 20 May 17 - 01:22 PM

Texas Jodler: I do not know what you are talking about, being unable to find "carant" in a dictionary.

Furthermore, if you "do not think it right to publish" traditional material you've received, then you are most definitely in the wrong place here on Mudcat. This site is dedicated to sharing knowledge.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,Helen Swan
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM

Thanks for all the wonderful background here.
can anyone help with just one line?
what on earth is the 'handle' that is all gone, in the soldier verse?

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,maeve
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 11:38 AM

Perhaps you misheard the line?

"We'll handle his gun and we'll fight for the fun" Maddy Prior, June Tabor at Cecil Sharp House, London 10/23/08 - 07 What Will We Do

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 12:56 PM

That's what they're singing.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 02:31 PM

Now I'm getting it. "Handle is gone" = "handle his gun".
At least I managed to figure out it's not "we'll walk through the town" but "we'll hawk through the town".

Subject: DT Corr: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 02:39 PM

Should be as follows

WHAT WILL WE DO?

What will we do if we have no money?
Oh true lovers, what will we do then?
I will hawk through the town for a hungry crown
And we'll yodel it over again

What will we do if we marry a tinker?
Oh true lovers, what will we do then?
I will sell a tin can and walk on with me man
And we'll yodel it over again

What will we do if we marry a soldier?
Oh true lovers, what will we do then ?
We will handle his gun and we'll fight for the fun
And we'll yodel it over again

What will we do if we have a young daughter?
Oh true lovers, what will we do then?
We will take her in hand and we'll walk on with me man
And we'll yodel it over again

What will we do if we have no money?
Oh true lovers, what will we do then?
We will hawk through the town for a hungry crown
And we'll yodel it over again

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 02:51 PM

Thought you'd like to hear Mary at her very best, IMO
This is a her singing BURIED in KILKENNY , a version of Lord Randal
All Mary's singing was emotionally charged - from both ends of the emotional scale - it took us five goes to record her 'Donnelly' - a bawdy version of The Tinker which starts:

There was a little tinker and he had a little ass
and he stuffed a box of pepper up the little ass's arse*
*A reference to the somewhat cruel horse=dealer's trick of livening up a docile horse for selling

Each time she broke down from laughing

The circumstances of Mary's singing Buried in Kilkenny are what made it special for us
When she was travelling in North East London She had decided to have the school-aged children of her family of sixteen educated
and, in order that she could, a kindly Hackney councilor found her a home in a gloomy furnitureless flat in Bethnal Green - she was miserable from the day she walked through the door
Totally blind, children at school all day, and family travelling elsewhere for work, she was left alone all day with only a radio for company in a cold, echoey room
Pat and I turned up one night to see her and she virtually dragged us through the door, demanding that we record her songs
We had tried Buried in Kilkenny several times, but each time she had broken down saying it was "too heavy" - we assumed she was having trouble pitching it (one of her problems)
She commenced to pour all her misery into this tragic ballads - she'd never sung it as well before and never did do again

Mary's life reads like a Dostoevsky novel, which is why her 'two fingers up to the world' 'What Will We Do' is so special - lovely lady, lovely times

Hadn't noticed the query about obtaining the CD set - Musical Traditions produced it and I think still have it, but, if not, don't hesitate to ask
We learned last week that the Travellers had duplicated it and were passing it around among themselves and many had taken up some of the songs
Makes all those drunken nights well-worthwhile
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 02:54 PM

Never felt that last repeat verse necessary Jeri, but if it works...
I've heard versions with added verses made by the singers - our own Martin Ryan has made one I think
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 12:36 PM

Many thanks to Jim Carroll for the "Buried in Kilkenny" link. It's wonderful.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 01:20 PM

Can I just say that, while Mary was a great Traveller singer, she was by no means alone
We owe the survival of many of our great songs, ballads and folk tales to the Travelling People, who are having a pretty rough time of things at present
Pat and I spent thirty odd years in their company and were greeted by friendship, generosity and masses and masses of information about their lifestyle and traditions as well as their songs and stories - a deeply moving and life-changing experience
Some years ago a local traditional music broadcaster, Paula Carroll (no relation), made three magnificent programmes on our work with Travellers in London, which featured Mary, Mikeen McCarthy and several others talking and singing   
Last year, another broadcaster (an Englishman living in Kerry) made another
All wee broadcast on national radio
If anybody would like to hear them, if they let me have their e-mail address (by PM if possible) and I'll put them in PCloud and link to them
I'm not happy exchanging e-mail addresses openly on line, but I'm sure we can accommodate non-members somehow
Don't hesitate to ask - we promised the singers we wouldn't let their songs die and this is a way of keeping that promise
Thanks
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:15 PM

Thanks for the help with 'handle'. And thanks everone for the stories

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Stewie
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:58 PM

To continue the thread drift, there is a recent recording of 'Buried in Kilkenny' by Landless on their 'Bleaching Bones' album. The album booklet notes that it was learned from the Mary Delaney recording. You can listen to it on Youtube or here:

Click

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:26 PM

Thanks to Jeri for puzzling out the lyrics and to John for the background to this song, which is constantly being revived. I've only heard the Silly Sisters do it and their rendition is unforgettable.

Charlie Ipcar

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: False Lankum
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 09:02 AM

'If anybody would like to hear them, if they let me have their e-mail address (by PM if possible) and I'll put them in PCloud and link to them'

I'm trying to figure out how to PM here in order to follow this up - can anyone help?

Thanks,

Ian

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 10:47 AM

Mary Delaney seems to sing "and we yodel", not "and we'll yodel". From rich-joy's link on 20 May 17 - 12:49 AM

It doesn't change anything, but does anyone else hear that??

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 10:55 AM

False Lankum (Ian), go to the top of the page, the box where it says Quick Links. There is a drop-down menu. Click that black vee-shaped thing. About six or seven lines down there is a line that reads Send a Personal Message. Click that and there ya go.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 11:50 AM

"we yodel""
She varied it - she sang "We'll yodel" most of the time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 11:52 AM

I seem to remember that particular version was recorded in the early days when she was still remembering her songs for us
JIm

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:22 PM

Thanks, Jim.

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: False Lankum
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:30 PM

Thanks for that Starship!

Ian

Subject: RE: Origins: What Will We Do? (Silly Sisters)
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:34 PM

Most welcome, Ian. (If you still encounter difficulties, just post to this thread and we'll figure it out.) NB You must be logged-in as a member to use that function. Keep well.