Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 May 17 - 10:09 AM

Just an observation, what on earth have the last few posts got to do with Brady.


Beautiful sunny day again here on the West coast of Galway

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 10:01 AM

Back to the subject in hand - Capital Punishment
We have in our collection, a smallish and extremely readable book on the subject which I would make compulsory to the teaching of twentieth century British history; it is entitled 'The Fatal Gallows Tree" by John Dean Potter
It lays out a thumbnail history o capital punishment, with all its barbarities and finished up with a descrpton of the fight to have it abolished.
It doesn't dwell on its horrors, but it doesn't have to - the barbaric practice needed no embelishment
The last chapter remains one of the finest condemnations of the practice and its ending

Then came the third case. At 9 p.m. on Easter Sunday in 1955 a night club hostess, Ruth Ellis, shot her lover, racing-car driver, David Blakely, outside the Magdala public house in South Hill Park, Hampstead. She was a silly good-time girl who killed Blakely in a jealous frenzy because he had jilted her. She fired four shots and later told her legal advisers that, as she had killed the man she loved, she wanted to die and join him.
They obviously hoped that in court she would make the perfect cxcuse—her mind was a blank and the last thing she remembered was picking up the revolver. That would have extricated her from the fatal situation of deliberate murder by firing more than one shot.
This she did not do. In court she made it obvious that her intention was to kill. She presumably said this deliberately to court the gallows.
Unfortunately 48 hours before she was due to be hanged with the gallows looming, she became hysterical and changed her story. Frantic appeals were made to the Home Secretary, Gwilym Lloyd George, to reprieve her. He was not the most humane or imaginative of men and saw no reason to let her live. She was hanged by Albert Pierrepoint at Holloway Prison on 13 June 1955.
At the formal inquest after her execution the pathologist Keith Simpson said, 'There was a strong odour of brandy surrounding the body.'
The Coroner, Mr H. Milner Heime, asked the Governor of Holloway, Dr Charity Taylor, if it were usual to give a little brandy to the condemned before execution. She replied, Ί don't know.'
Later the Home Office admitted it could be given at the dis¬cretion of the medical officer. The formal verdict was returned that the 'execution was expeditiously and humanely carried out'.
Fine, blanketing words. But what dreadful Edith Thompson- type scene lay behind the last-minute administering of brandy to the unhappy woman ?
An even more gruesome footnote came in a letter to The Lancet on 20 August 1955 which said the execution of Ruth Ellis 'represented the total degradation of a human being'.
Five weeks after her execution, Dr I. H. Milner of London, N.7 wrote:

"Ruth Ellis a few weeks before had had a miscarriage. Because of depression and desire to die she actually assisted towards her own liquidation. Her murder was tantamount to suicide—while the balance of her mind was disturbed. It was disturbed because of a severe psychological trauma suffered by an acutely unstable woman after a recent miscarriage. In almost any other country in the world she would have been shown sympathy and under¬standing. It is the custom to do so in this country when a mother is involved in the death of an infant."

One strange piece of information which the doctor gave as part of her degradation was that 'the condemned woman on the morning of execution was made to change into canvas under¬clothing'.
(This practice was common with the execution of women as it was a regular occurrence for women's insides to drop out as their bodies jerked to a halt at the end of the noose)
Three centuries had elapsed but nothing much had changed since Ann Greene was revived from the gallows in 1650 after being hanged for having a stillborn baby. But hysterical, im¬moral Ruth Ellis served her pitiful purpose. She was the last woman to be hanged in England. No one could face such a scene again.
There is no doubt that these three hangings which should never have taken place were the death blow to the traditionalists. A climate of opinion was building up, like the one over a century before which swept away hanging for theft of a few shillings. Yet the opposition remained the same, unchanged in 150 years.
In 1956 when a motion for abolition was put forward, the House of Lords voted against it by a big majority—238 to 95. The New Statesman wrote savagely:
"From the hills and forests of darkest Britain they came : the halt,' the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten —the hereditary peers of England united in their determination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution.
It took nearly another 10 years to get the Bill passed. While the last Bill for abolition was placed before the House of Com¬mons hanging was suspended—and never renewed."
The last two men to be hanged in England stepped simul¬taneously on to two different gallows. On 13 August 1964, 21- year-old Peter Anthony Allen was hanged at Walton Jail, Liver¬pool, while at the same time 24-year-old Gynne Owen Evans was executed at Strangeways Jail in Manchester. Both had been found guilty of the capital murder of 53-year-old John West, who had been found dead in his home in Kings Avenue, Seaton, Cumberland. It was a brutal squalid killing in the course of a robbery. It had no significance except, like the Waltham Blacks in an earlier context, it made a footnote in history. Someone had to be the last person to be hanged—and on that August morning it was those two young thugs.
Thus, almost anti-climatically, ended the most grisly chapter in English history. The anti-hanging motion put forward by Sydney Silverman, M.P., was backed by politicians of both parties and houses. One of its leading supporters was the Lord Chancellor, Lord Gardiner, who refused a judgeship because he would not impose the death penalty.
The House of Lords, much to most people's surprise, passed it with a majority of 100 votes. After a thousand years the story of English hanging had come to an end. It had gone the way of boiling, branding, beheading and the burning of witches. At last civilization had triumphed."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 07:44 AM

"To sickos like you self defense is terrorism only when it's Jews defending themselves."
To sickos like you the Jews are resposible for the war crimes of the Israeli regime
You are the only one to have accused the Jews of anything
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 17 - 07:03 AM

Israeli terorrissm [sic]

To sickos like you self defense is terrorism only when it's Jews defending themselves.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 06:50 AM

"that and opening your trap and just letting a uninterrupted flow of complete and utter bullshit flow out."
Always avoiding answering oints by insulting
" The ideology of the governments concerned perhaps. "
Did they offer reperation - no they didn't
Would reperation ever have been refused - no it wouldn't - the victims would have welcomed assistance
As I said - this garbage should never have been showered down on Thisrd World peasants in the first place and those who did so are, as far as I am concerned the worst of the worst.
It was the West's opposition to the ideologies of the people trying to lead their own lives in these countries that inspired the invasions by the U.S. in the first place.
Your defence of this is the same as your defence of Israeli terorrissm - fall into line or we'll bomb the shit out of you - Vietnam, Laos - Cambodia and earlier Egypt, Ghana, South America and other parts of the former empires - anywhere that wouldn't toe the line.
How far are you prepared to go to defend this shite?
How was it you described carcinogenic Agent Orange - crop spray?
You are one sicko - as are all your kind
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Teribus
Date: 20 May 17 - 06:31 AM

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 20 May 17 - 04:25 AM

"Now could that possibly have been due the regimes, and the attitudes of those regimes towards the USA, "
So you have to kowtow to mass-murdering states before they offer reparation for their mass murder

Always full scale deflection with you Jom isn't it, that and opening your trap and just letting a uninterrupted flow of complete and utter bullshit flow out.

Let's take this bit of nonsense:

"So you have to kowtow to mass-murdering states before they offer reparation for their mass murder"

If you wish to clear up the mess then you require masses of co-operation, nothing whatsoever to do with kowtowing you imbecile. Now what could possibly get in the way of establishing the required co-operation? The ideology of the governments concerned perhaps. I also that that the problem posed concerned unexploded munitions so strictly speaking up until the moment the explode they will have killed nobody - I would have thought that anyone would have both recognised realised that difference - you couldn't because you are in spittle-flecked rant mode.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 04:25 AM

"Now could that possibly have been due the regimes, and the attitudes of those regimes towards the USA, "
So you have to kowtow to mass-murdering states before they offer reparation for their mass murder
This inhuman garbage should never have been dropped on people in the first place, no matter what political shade they were and it should never have been left there to blow the limbs of civilians, whoever was in charge
It was an act of groos inhumanity by a so called "civilised" regime in the first place and it leaves little room to condemn other political systems when that is the manner in which so called "civilised" nations behave towards Third World peoples
These wars were simple political butchery to suit western interests in the first place as are the oil wars that are still happening
And guess who profits from the manufacture of this filth - right first time "Western democracies"
And no there's a new kid on the block
"Israeli manufactured weapon systems have been allegedly sold to many regimes with controversial human rights records (e.g. Guatemala during the Guatemala Civil War,[14][15] South Africa during Apartheid, El Salvador during the Salvadoran Civil War, Iran during the reign of the Shah, Ethiopia during the Ethiopian Civil War and more recently South Sudan during the South Sudanese Civil War)."
"Tell me Jom do you think that the US Government are the only ones that have live fire ranges on their territory?"
So ****** what?
Does that excuse leaving live ammunition around for people to lose limbs from?
It will be interesting to see if your Donald Duck puts in a programme to clear the filth up - can't see that happening - can you?
Two "Joms" in that one
Your insecurity appears to be intensifying as you paint yourself into a tighter corner
Keep it up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Teribus
Date: 20 May 17 - 04:02 AM

Tell me Jom do you EVER critically read what you write before posting?

Now on the Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam thing - you came out with this in your latest:

"you have yet to mention that it took thirty years to begin to get round to it"

Now could that possibly have been due the regimes, and the attitudes of those regimes towards the USA, that were in place in those countries during those years? Never the less the US are paying for the clean up the others I mentioned are not and never will.

On live fire range clearance as quoted in your own post that originally mentioned the problem the US Government are paying for that and programmes are in place to clear those areas. Tell me Jom do you think that the US Government are the only ones that have live fire ranges on their territory? What about Russia? Where was it that they did their atmospheric nuclear testing? Where did they test fire their weapons (Cluster bombs and DU munitions)? What information do you have on their clean up efforts? Or are you, yourself being a little selective in your condemnation. On the Russians do you know what they are doing about the 34 nuclear reactors from ships and submarines that they just beached and abandoned in the Kara Sea instead of disposing of them safely and responsibly?

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 03:38 AM

"You are right Jim I did not mention the US in Laos as the US in Laos are paying for the clean up "
You are right in saying you didn't mention it - you have yet to mention that it took thirty years to begin to get round to it and it took nearly another twenty for America in the shape of President Obama to recognised the HUMAN CARNAGE which was the consequence of that butchery.
You have yet to mention the horrific results of military testing and maneuvering that has left so much of America a minefield - literally.
Much easier to concentrate your energies elsewhere.
Jom"
Still as insecure of your arguments as ever I see - nice to know my arguments are still giving you cause for alarm - keep it up - life wouldn't be anywhere near as entertaining if you tried treating those who disagreed with you as equals!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Teribus
Date: 20 May 17 - 02:59 AM

"how many were spread during the first Gulf War"

2,592 FASCAM landmines laid in one small specific area as a defensive measure during the battle of Khafji

"TF Shepherd requested the FASCAM minefield be laid at grid QS63056235. Batteries Q, R, and S each fire 16 rounds of RAAM [Remote Anti-Armor Mine] long duration and 4 rounds of ADAMs [Area Denial Artillery Munition3] long duration."

1,314 Gator munitions (Aerial sowed minefield cluster bombs) deployed during Desert Storm.

An average Gator minefield covers an area approximately 200 x 650 meters.23 This is predicated on the delivery of 6 Gator dispensers, each containing 72 AT and 22 AP mines, by 1 Gator sortie. For planning purposes, two Gator sorties are considered sufficient to fix or block a typical adversary battalion, depending on the orientation of the minefield to the target battalion's axis of movement.

In the Gulf War, Gator munitions were used primarily to interdict, that is, prevent or hinder enemy use of an area or route for supply, communications, or movement.

Areas subjected to these strikes were plotted and advancing Coalition Forces were instructed to avoid those areas. As those areas were by-passed EOD units were responsible for marking them for future clearance.

To put this into perspective there were 210,000 unguided aerial munitions dropped on Iraq during the first Gulf War.

You are right Jom I did not mention the US in Laos as the US in Laos are paying for the clean up - the Russians in Afghanistan, the Cubans in Angola and the Argentines in the Falklands are NOT.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 17 - 08:40 PM

"Russia should have been made to pay the costs of clearing the 15 million mines they spread across Afghanistan. "
Selective as usual Teriibus
"Some 288 million cluster munitions and about 75 million unexploded bombs were left across Laos after the war ended. From 1996–2009, more than 1 million items of UXO were destroyed, freeing up 23,000 hectares of land. Between 1999 and 2008, there were 2,184 casualties (including 834 deaths) from UXO incidents"
"In the aftermath of the 2006 war between Israel and Lebanon, it is estimated that southern Lebanon is littered with one million undetonated cluster bombs"
Peacetime pollution
According to US Environmental Protection Agency documents released in late 2002, UXO at 16,000 domestic inactive military ranges within the United States pose an "imminent and substantial" public health risk and could require the largest environmental cleanup ever, at a cost of at least US$14 billion. Some individual ranges cover 500 square miles (1,300 km2), and, taken together, the ranges comprise an area the size of Florida.
"On Joint Base Cape Cod (JBCC) on Cape Cod, Massachusetts, decades of artillery training have contaminated the only drinking water for thousands of surrounding residents. A costly UXO recovery effort is under way."
"UXO on US military bases has caused problems for transferring and restoring Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) land. The Environmental Protection Agency's efforts to commercialize former munitions testing grounds are complicated by UXO, making investments and development risky.[citation needed]
UXO cleanup in the US involves over 10 million acres (40,000 km2) of land and 1,400 different sites. Estimated cleanup costs are tens of billions of dollars. It costs roughly $1,000 to demolish a UXO on site. Other costs include surveying and mapping, removing vegetation from the site, transportation, and personnel to manually detect UXOs with metal detectors. Searching for UXOs is tedious work and often 100 holes are dug to every 1 UXO found. Other methods of finding UXOs include digital geophysics detection with land and airborne systems"
It seems that it's OK to pollute the planet with unexplored bombs and mines if you've got "God on your side"
Why do you rabid righties insist on making these discussions a soapbox for your rabid-right politics?
Nice to se the hang 'em and flog em brigade are still around so long after hanging was found to be an act of barbarism.
Wonder if Ireland's problems would have been solved if they'd hanged the Guildford four or The Birmingham Six when they'd been found "guilty" of evil crimes.
As sick as Brady's crimes were, they didn't come anywhere near the State sponsored ritual murder that debased humanity for as long as it did.
It was primitive barbarism when it was practiced and it remains that when it is sill advocated
No human being or human society should ever again give itself the right to deliberately take life in the way that it once did - that is true evil
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 17 - 04:45 PM

Teribus: Al quaeda and Isis are hardly unknown agendas. I believe they call it a fight against the enemies of Islam( I do not believe Jihad is entirely the correct term)
You are also very selective in your choice of minefields, how many were spread during the first Gulf War, and how many from WW2 still pose a threat. Why stop at minefields? A far greater long term threat is posed by depleted uranium. The western Alliance has problems recognising the problem, let alone being prepared to clean up their mess that poses a genetic problem for generations.
http://www.wise-uranium.org/dhap992.html

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 03:55 PM

You forgot Israel in Lebanon, Teribus.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: robomatic
Date: 19 May 17 - 03:11 PM

I think one of the points of the creditable Michael Kitchen series "Foyle's War" (set in England during WWII) is that, with blood flowing in red rivers across the Channel, yet individual deaths in England must be researched and the culprit found under law.

And I can't hold back on the quote, (I've heard attributed to Stalin, but don't know for sure) "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic".


Regarding ashes. There is a gentleman in The States going from ballpark to ballpark and flushing the ashes of his pal, a onetime plumber.

If it can be done for a good man, why not a bad man?

The only difference is motive.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Teribus
Date: 19 May 17 - 02:33 PM

"Waging undeclared, unauthorised wars across the globe to satisfy unknown agendas and without a UN mandate is simply illegal and no different to any other form of murder." - Iains

So Al-Qaeda's war is illegal.

The Jihad on the part of ISIS is illegal.

Both are "undeclared, unauthorised wars across the globe to satisfy unknown agendas" that are being waged and as such those participating have to be challenged and countered whenever and wherever by every means at our disposal.

On the subject of minefields and IEDs - Russia should have been made to pay the costs of clearing the 15 million mines they spread across Afghanistan. Same for Cuba in Angola and Argentina on the Falkland Islands.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 May 17 - 12:54 PM

It seems his ashes will NOT be scattered on Saddleworth Moor. (The cheeky sod. How arrogant to imagine anyone would have allowed that!) and Glasgow have categorically stated they won't be letting them be deposited anywhere near Glasgow.

The crematorium managers of wherever his remains are dealt with will have to organise something.

Suggestions... Lavatory? Municipal refuse tip?

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 17 - 11:28 AM

Big Al,
I can concede war is different in some circumstances, Waging undeclared, unauthorised wars across the globe to satisfy unknown agendas and without a UN mandate is simply illegal and no different to any other form of murder. The crimminals should be held accountable, or does the mythical war on terror allow for any response including ignoring the Geneva Convention on war prisoners rights eg waterboarding and extraordinary rendition of prisoners to more primitive regimes for interrogation and keeping them captive on prison ships. Perhaps it is time politicians were made accountable for their actions and required to clear minefields and defuse ieds by way of punishment.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 May 17 - 11:13 AM

Meanwhile, it seems nobody wants to be home to Brady's ashes.

If it was up to me I'd fly-tip them over the new statue of Thatcher in London. Or mix them into a shipment of burger meat heading for McDonalds.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 17 - 08:58 AM

War is different!

A Shakespeare said, Cry havoc! And let slip th dogs of war...

War is the state of ultimate violence and savagery. The enemy that must be downed and subdued and forced to surrender totally - whatever the cost, whatever the level of behaviour and violence one must descend to. Simply whatever!

moreover if you're not prepared to do exactly that - don't go to war. its not fair on the guys who fight and put their lives on the line for you. don't do it - just because the armaments manufacturers have paid for your election campaign and you owe them one.

a civilised society is the opposite to war. that's us trying to get it right.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 17 - 06:51 AM

I find it difficult to reconcile the views here that are largely against capital punishment with the fact that our armed forces are expected to inflict wholesale murder on civilian populations in places like Syria without even a UN mandate to give a perceived legitimacy.
What is the greater crime? to hang a guilty man or blow innocent civilians to pieces with the excuse of collateral damage or deliberately targeting Syrian troops in the pursuit of an illegal war.
Does the wearing of a uniform grant exemtion from crime? Is it legal for a state to pursue a war without UN sanction.?
Are certain US presidents and UK prime ministers nothing less that so far untouchable war crimminals? The deaths on their hands are in the thousands, Brady's many orders of magnitude less.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 19 May 17 - 02:12 AM

Perhaps a new beginning for the forum?

Well said Robomatic.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: robomatic
Date: 18 May 17 - 11:01 PM

Big Al:
Thank you right back atya. I love the threads where folks can eloquently express their disagreements. I wouldn't apologize for anything you said. I believe a little effort on my part spent in understanding a point is a good investment.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 17 - 10:36 PM

i'm sorry. i wasn't trying to be cryptic. i'm not sure my thoughts are anything except the ramblings of an old man - i am flattered that you think they are worth analysis. Thank you Robomatic. Can i send you my album in appreciation? pm me your address.

the proscenium arch is the arch over the stage in an old fashioned theatre. What i was trying to say was that the intention of capital punishment was to theatricalise it. i think this was the intention of public execution - to provide a grisly spectacle to show other people that being a wrongdoer wasn't a great career choice.

and the only problem with this is that getting the starring role in multi million pound production does have a certain allure.

that starring role...i remember McVeigh.. i don't remember the his co defendants, i don't know the names of any of his victims. that's what i was getting at. that's what CP has conferred upon him.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: robomatic
Date: 18 May 17 - 09:54 PM

Big Al:
I liked your contribution so much that I'd like to skeletonize if for my response:
the problem is, it doesn't limit violence. it lends it a proscenium arch.

I looked up 'proscenium arch' and concluded you were saying that the Biblical injunction regarding an 'eye for an eye' and a 'life for life' was more recommendation than limitation. You may be right, but one of the great points of quoting Scripture is you can select what you mean and I mean the latter! I personally think there are cases where punishment cannot be proportionate, such as the case with animal cruelty, serial murder, murder-for-hire, arson, Orson Welles' character in 'The Third Man' diluting medicine, but in general you don't execute people for petty crimes, you consider backgrounds, physical and mental factors, motivations, etc.

there was nothing the IRA would have loved more than to see the brit government execute one of its members during the 1970's. nothing THatcher would have liked better    heroes and villain of thousand crappy rebel ballads. money rolling in from every bar from brum to boston, mass. heroic status assured on all sides.

I don't know if this is really true. Bob Dylan made a hero out of Hurricane while he was quite alive and probably indirectly aided in his getting freed.

as Churchill said, grass grows over a battlefield, but not a scaffold.

I don't get the point. A better point is that no one forgets where the hatchet is buried.

on your own shore - who was Timothy McVeigh, Sacco and Vanzetti? who were all the others? Star status assured!!

I think Timothy McVeigh got what he deserved, the case against Sacco and Vanzetti would not pass muster in this day and age, and a significant number of young Americans have no idea who those people are.


as for pendulums - it would be hard to imagine how much further it could swing to the right from the position of HUntsville's factory line of death.

Really. We have a clown for a President right now. Impeach him and you'll find the guy next in line will be politically proficient. You have no idea.

Capital punishment teaches nothing except that if humans don't fit into our society -its alright to kill them, the story is the same from Jesus to Ted Bundy.

That is an exaggeration, but considering the continuum of human thought and behavior, it makes sense that at the extremes there will be people who practise mayhem and murder not as a last resort, but as an opening act..

sociologists have pointed out for years that most of our criminals come from poverty. in the USA - you have nearly a third of your people living in poverty, and they have access to every kind of instrument of murder available.

Let's go back to Ted Bundy; he is at very least an exception to your argument of 'social disease'. I am not suggesting that we go back to the institutionalizing of Jean Valjean, but definitely the evisceration of Jack the Ripper.

i understand -its easier to blame the poor than to sort out your problems - but stop dressing it up in sophistry and fine words.

I deny that I've done either. Some of my kinfolk came out of urban ghettos that had a lot of old fashioned swiping off apple carts and gang activity that was neighborhood related, but nothing like the drug-related kill over a pair of running shoes of the present day.

Ian Brady's lifetime in prison and mental hospital was a humane, restrained and decent response that England should be proud of, to an enigma of human behaviour - given our present level of understanding of the human condition.

Well stated, but who would have missed him if he'd been executed and gone lo these many years.

I have a friend who is smarter than me (which does not require genius). He is against the death penalty but he is a gun owner and would defend his wife and family to the point of shooting to kill. He just doesn't want the State to have that power. "How do you reconcile the fact that you're willing to take a life but you don't want the State to do it?" I ask him. "Easy," he replies, "I'm a hypocrite!"

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 17 - 06:37 PM

Harry Allen, the hangman who hanged James Hanratty, among many others, was the landlord of the Junction Inn at Besses. My mum never fails to remind me every time I take her to Marks and Sparks Simply Food in Prestwich. The pub isn't there any more, and there's a big Tesco near there now on the former site of Prestwich lunatic asylum. People round there still say "Eee, yer bloody drivin' me mad. I'll bloody end up in Prestwich at this rate..."

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 May 17 - 06:01 PM

I too have read Pierreponts book, chilling is indeed a good word to describe it. However I think he was trying to exonerate himself by saying he didn't believe in capital punishment.

Too little and far too late.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 May 17 - 01:33 PM

I've always wondered if those who commit heinous crimes aren't actually very ill and mentally abnormal. No totally sane person would do such things. Many (though not all) have had appallingly abusive childhoods or lived in severely dysfunctional families. Some may have neurological problems of the brain and so on.

I don't think one can say a person deserves to die if this is the case.
Since it's terribly difficult to know either way, one can't take the risk of administering the death penalty simply because one feels vengeful.

As to the effect on the executioner, I can only refer again to Pierrepoint's autobiography. I've read it many times, attempting to understand the man, his motives and his mindset. He seems to have been almost 'psychopathic' himself in that he sincerely believed he had a 'vocation' to dispatch the condemned 'as humanely as possible', and while doing his job correctly, he never appeared to have considered what a hugely unacceptable thing he was doing, snuffing out more than 400 people's lives in cold blood on the end of his rope. He comes across as self-important and rather pleased with himself, which I find chilling.
To me, he was as much a murderer as his 'victims'.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 May 17 - 12:37 PM

Scotland never executed anywhere near as many people as England

sounds like a proto-statistic to me. Let us see if we can enlighten.

Scotland is less populous - try %.

Don't be a patronizing twat. You knew I meant exactly that. It was so obvious there was absolutely no need for me to spell it out.

The number of executions per head in Scotland was never anywhere near as high as it was in England. The difference is well over an order of magnitude, particularly in the late 18th century. Bad news for execution broadsheet writers because there was so little to write about. (That's how I came to find that out).


Scotland had a ternary murder law. "Unproven".

Irrelevant. There can't have been as many as 10 "unproven" verdicts in murder trials ever.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 18 May 17 - 12:15 PM

I am against the death penalty in principle, but the reason this penalty was abandoned seems to have been the possibility of rehabilitation into society of even those who commit a capital offence.

In Brady's case and the others who torture and murder our children rehabilitation is out of the question. The crimes are so heinous as to make these people forever outside human society.

These sorts of crimes are a "crossing of the Rubicon", between normal human behaviour with all its flaws and sheer evil.
Keeping Brady and his kind alive serves no purpose whatsoever.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: robomatic
Date: 18 May 17 - 11:21 AM

I think it is pretentious to maintain that we are at some 'other' level.
A system of laws is one of the great achievements of civilization, BUT it creates a sub-system (gaming the system with such techniques as corruption of officials and jury tampering) designed to circumvent those very laws and will make severe inroads on the original system. There has to be a way to self-correct. Watching the watchers.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 May 17 - 10:19 AM

Use of the death penalty would have brought society down to Brady's level.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Stu
Date: 18 May 17 - 09:51 AM

"I'm sure any of he child victim's parents would have been quite happy to administer an injection."

Naturally they would (almost people would), but that would be revenge. We have a legal system to stop revenge being taken by individuals and let us as a society punish those who transgress our laws.


"Let's not shed any tears for the executioner."

Difficult to understand this comment, as it seems to indicate a complete lack of empathy and compassion. Executioners and their teams suffer; no human can go through the process of taking the life of another without leaving deep and lasting emotional scars.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: banjoman
Date: 18 May 17 - 05:21 AM

Thought about all of this for a while, and although I am against capital punishment, I can understand how people with opposing views may feel about this monster. However, if there is something after death, and I believe that there is, then he will be facing the ultimate judgement.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 17 - 05:13 AM

Not psychopaths of course. But would you be in a balanced state of mind?

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 May 17 - 03:11 AM

Scotland never executed anywhere near as many people as England

sounds like a proto-statistic to me. Let us see if we can enlighten.

Scotland is less populous - try %.
Scotland had a ternary murder law. "Unproven".

Before the repeal of capital punishment there was a lot of debate about how "murder" was defined and collected.
And the "manslaughter" charge was used more often in the run-up. A sure fire bona fide statistical fact (as in artifact).

Statistics depend on the question you ask. And the answer you choose to elicit therefrom.

I am not in favour of the death penalty BTW. But I did smile at the (then) comment:
"imprison them and indoctrinate them until they fully understand the import of their misdemeanour. Then kill them"

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 17 - 04:42 PM

Would you call parents like those, psychopaths?

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 17 - 04:37 PM

I'm sure any of he child victim's parents would have been quite happy to administer an injection. Let's not shed any tears for the executioner.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 May 17 - 01:56 PM

Jack, I believe ALbert Pierrepoint (Chief Executioner for Great Britain) carried out most of the Scottish death sentences in the 20th Century.
Even he eventually decided that the death penalty was not the answer, and resigned his position.
His autobiography is extremely interesting but completely chilling in its descriptions of the actual procedure. It shows exactly why taking a person's life in cold blood on behalf of the State is an appalling act, no matter what their crime.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that Brady was a psychopath, incapable of empathetic feeling. He killed because it was 'interesting' and, like many psychopaths, he enjoyed the control it gave him. As long as he was safely contained for the rest of his life, he no longer represented a danger to the public.

It is expensive to keep people in prison, but cold-bloodedly snuffing out a criminal's life makes one no better than a psychopath in my view.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 17 - 01:31 PM

too bleeding subtle for me...

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 17 - 12:40 PM

There is a subtle difference Al.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 May 17 - 09:52 AM

Executing people has always been a very expensive business. In Scotland, local jurisdictions used to try capital cases, but they kicked the responsibility upstairs to central government as soon as they got the chance - the bills were crippling. (I think the last one paid for by local government was around 1800). And Scotland never executed anywhere near as many people as England, let alone the present-day US.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 17 - 08:25 AM

'Monsters like Brady must not be confused with political ideologists, his treatment has nothing to do with issues like the overthrow of the political system.'

do you really think the parents of children killed in the MacDonalds in WArrington, or those of children killed outside the FBI offices Oklahoma gave a damn how committed the bombers were to their political position?

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Stu
Date: 17 May 17 - 06:45 AM

"People who commit crimes such as those of Brady are the embodiment of evil, and should have no place in society."

Agree, but in prison they are out of society (or should be if the prison is run properly, and why I don't agree prisoners should get the vote). Killing people isn't the answer, and there are no winners in capital punishment. It demeans us and causes terrible suffering for a lot of other innocent people who are involved through no fault of their own.

Brady was a piece of shit, he played the likes of Lord Longford like a fiddle and whatever hell he's in now, he fully deserves it. Killing him though? Not an answer in any civilised society.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 17 - 06:32 AM

Such figures are always less clear than they first appear. Does this represent the incremental cost of detaining Brady or the total costs of everything associated with him? For example does it include the total salary of his psychiatric team or only that fraction of time associated with treating him, since they presumably also did other things. How is the cost of the building in which he was housed treated? Are people claiming the wing would not have been built if he did not exist?

I am not saying the £8m is right or wrong, but it is good idea not to just take it at face value.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Teribus
Date: 17 May 17 - 04:36 AM

Apparently as reported in the press the cost of keeping Brady amounted to £8 million.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 17 - 04:26 AM

A brilliant post, Al. I salute you, sir.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 May 17 - 03:41 AM

You're right about the poor policing Mr Red. My husband had the documentary on TV last night, and I caught the bit where one of the searchers on the moors found one of the bodies in a shallow grave. He'd noticed a stick poking out of a slight depression, and went to investigate. His superior officer told him to leave it, as it was probably only a dead sheep. He replied that, if so, the sheep was wearing clothes.
It sounded to me as if, understandably, they were fed up with tramping around in the cold over such a huge terrain. But it was rather cavalier of the officer to have that attitude. They were, after all, searching for people's dead children.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 May 17 - 03:10 AM

decides that Brady gets an hours TV devoted to his life and achievements?

Well it does serve as a warning for the public to be alert. These days, with mobile phones/cameras it is so much easier.
And there was a lorry driver who witnessed what (from his description) was the pair probably carrying things to bury on the moor. Apparently he was not believed because the police said Brady didn't drive! On the basis he didn't have a licence for cars. They had a car.

Let us hope policing has improved.

What didn't come out in the documentary was unsolved disappearances and the timings with Brady/Hindley's known crimes. They hinted at gaps and how such criminals usually operate - ie get bolder and more frequent.
Not names but at least timings would have been instructive - instead of the repetitions.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 17 - 02:26 AM

"
Ian Brady's lifetime in prison and mental hospital was a humane, restrained and decent response that England should be proud of, to an enigma of human behaviour - given our present level of understanding of the human condition."    Very well put Al, but the rest of your post is apples and oranges I'm afraid.

Monsters like Brady must not be confused with political ideologists, his treatment has nothing to do with issues like the overthrow of the political system.
People who commit crimes such as those of Brady are the embodiment of evil, and should have no place in society.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 17 - 10:08 PM

the problem is, it doesn't limit violence. it lends it a proscenium arch.

there was nothing the IRA would have loved more than to see the brit government execute one of its members during the 1970's. nothing THatcher would have liked better    heroes and villain of thousand crappy rebel ballads. money rolling in from every bar from brum to boston, mass. heroic status assured on all sides.

as Churchill said, grass grows over a battlefield, but not a scaffold.

on your own shore - who was Timothy McVeigh, Sacco and Vanzetti? who were all the others? Star status assured!!

as for pendulums - it would be hard to imagine how much further it could swing to the right from the position of HUntsville's factory line of death.

Capital punishment teaches nothing except that if humans don't fit into our society -its alright to kill them, the story is the same from Jesus to Ted Bundy.

sociologists have pointed out for years that most of our criminals come from poverty. in the USA - you have nearly a third of your people living in poverty, and they have access to every kind of instrument of murder available.

i understand -its easier to blame the poor than to sort out your problems - but stop dressing it up in sophistry and fine words.

Ian Brady's lifetime in prison and mental hospital was a humane, restrained and decent response that England should be proud of, to an enigma of human behaviour - given our present level of understanding of the human condition.