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Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017

Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 03:32 PM
Donuel 31 May 17 - 03:56 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 02:42 AM
akenaton 01 Jun 17 - 02:58 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 03:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 06:22 AM
akenaton 01 Jun 17 - 06:59 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 08:00 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 17 - 08:03 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 17 - 08:08 AM
Stu 01 Jun 17 - 08:08 AM
Greg F. 01 Jun 17 - 08:33 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 08:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 09:08 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 11:11 AM
Raggytash 01 Jun 17 - 11:18 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 01:30 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 01:35 PM
MikeL2 01 Jun 17 - 02:50 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 03:06 PM
akenaton 01 Jun 17 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 05:00 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 07:57 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 17 - 08:34 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 09:45 PM
Teribus 02 Jun 17 - 01:54 AM
Jack Campin 02 Jun 17 - 04:10 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 17 - 04:40 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jun 17 - 08:43 AM
Teribus 02 Jun 17 - 09:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jun 17 - 09:55 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 17 - 10:23 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jun 17 - 10:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 17 - 10:45 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 17 - 11:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jun 17 - 11:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 17 - 03:55 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 17 - 04:15 AM
Iains 03 Jun 17 - 06:11 AM
akenaton 03 Jun 17 - 06:58 AM
akenaton 03 Jun 17 - 07:23 AM
Stu 03 Jun 17 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 17 - 08:07 AM
Raggytash 03 Jun 17 - 09:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 03:32 PM

Report in full
"Sister reveals motives of Manchester massacre monster: Salman Abedi 'wanted revenge for British-Libyan friend killed in racist attack and justice for Syrian children killed by America
Bomber's sister Jomana Abedi, 18, described older brother as kind and loving
She said Salman Abedi was likely driven to murder what he saw as injustices
Family friend alleged that it was murder of Abedi's friend that caused him to kill
The teenager was run over and stabbed in Manchester last year
The Manchester bomber's sister has claimed he was driven to murder because he wanted revenge for 'the explosives America drops on children in Syria'.
Jomana Abedi, 18, described her older brother Salman as kind and loving and said she was surprised that he had detonated a suicide bomb, killing 22 people after an Ariana Grande concert at Manchester Arena on Monday.
Speaking to the Wall Street Journal she said she thought he was driven by what he saw as injustices.
'I think he saw children—Muslim children—dying everywhere, and wanted revenge', Miss Abedi told the paper.
'He saw the explosives America drops on children in Syria, and he wanted revenge. Whether he got that is between him and God,' she added.
A family friend also alleged that it was the murder of Abedi's teenage friend that caused him to kill.
The teenager was run over and stabbed in Manchester in May 2016 in what is believed to have been a gangland killing.
An unnamed family friend said Abedi was 'vowing revenge' at the funeral and he viewed the murder as a hate crime."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Donuel
Date: 31 May 17 - 03:56 PM

Let the dead rest with more than your endless recriminations.
Let fond memories be learned and remembered instead of the hate that is brewing here.

Too soon? or 'But I know why'- is not an excuse. There is some shameful party line bile that is not respectful or sensical .


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 02:42 AM

the thing is ...history is not like a hot/cold water sytrem.

we didn't get the electoral reform act of 1870 and the NHS started the next day.
Libyans can't expect that you get rid of Gadaffi and then peace and harmony will break out. its unrealistic.
that's why people want to move here. its a done deal. our parents starved in the 1930's, and fought and saw their folks killed in WW2 to enjoy the life and affluence many of us enjoy.

you can't blame people for not wanting their families to be caught up in all the shit that's going on in their societies,

ultimately though, their countries have to fight and evolve their way out of the shit themselves. killing kids in Warrington, like the IRA did, or Manchester like this nutcase/freedom fighter did is no part of the solution.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 02:58 AM

"ultimately though, their countries have to fight and evolve their way out of the shit themselves. killing kids in Warrington, like the IRA did, or Manchester like this nutcase/freedom fighter did is no part of the solution."

Very well said sir.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 03:52 AM

"ultimately though, their countries have to fight and evolve their way out of the shit themselves."
A little simplistic Al
The twisted reasoning of those who plant the bombs is based on the fact that we are supplying the weapons and support from their oppressors.
If we stand by and allow our governments to do that, it's inevitable that they will recognise us part of what they have to overcome - not fair, but understandable.
When the China/Russia veto prevented the UN from acting against Assad, Britain held a vote to decide whether to become involved - we washed our hands of the responsibility of stopping the atrocities of our not-so-former friend and the LEGALITY of our involvement is quesionable.
At the height of his terror, Assad's officers and government officials were deserting and begging Britain to take simple measures against this state terrorist - economic and diplomatic pressure, the seizure of his London property - nothing was done and his gofer continued to move in and out of London with impunity
Now we are fighting Isis as Assad's ally - tell Assad's victims that his atrocities are "nuffin' to do with us guv"
Throughout the Irish 'Troubles' our interest in music brought us annually to this part of Western Ireland - we arrived in this town at the height of the period when the Hunger Strikers were dying unnecessarily, expecting to see some resentment - we saw none, but it would have been understandable if there had been any.
If we are going to ignore the fact that Britain is as wealthy as it is because of our centuries of exploitation of these countries which we helped to keep poor and subservient to the Empire, then at least we need to take responsibility for the actions of a Government which opened a massive arms fair aimed at selling weapons to Middle Eastern despots at the time the Arab Spring protests were just beginning.
Like it or not, it is a fact that that the wealthy Western Countries are part of the oppression - we helped keep the Assad family in its place despite the torture and mass murder - we prop up the Saudi regime because we want their oil - we fill our shops with goods made by virtual Third World slaves
In the past, we helped prop us the Apartheid regime in South Africa and welcomed dignitaries from Greece while the Generals were torturing, raping and murdering the Greek people - the Pinochet/Thatcher love-affair which helped prevent a mass-murderer from standing trial was probably the lowest point of our co-operation with fascism.
It's a wonder we don't have more enemies than we do.
We need to take responsibilities fro the actions of our politicians otherwise 'the sins of the fathers are bound to be visited on the children'
We really can't continue washing our hands of those responsibilities.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 06:22 AM

i think you're the one that's being simplistic.
There will always be the out and out bastards - the Khashoggi's and the Mark Thatchers who will flog you arms.

this is the gross nature of existence. we have to deal with it.

Jesus had his faults, I'm sure. But blessed are the peacemakers was a true and clever observation to make.

ultimately the guys who wrest power from the oppressor are those that change the minds of people.

rather in the way that Jeremy Corbyn is trying to do.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 06:59 AM

You just don't get it Jim, you are truly a dinosaur.   A "liberal dinosaur". Sometime everywhere people must take responsibility for their welfare, usually through political evolution.

It is NOT always somebody else's fault in politics or in society at large.   I heard a group of sixth form scholars being interviewed on BBC radio today....they were completely brainwashed....all the media "liberal" buzz words, but not a clue about life or how to survive it. The thought process and attention span had gone, I'm afraid, never to return.

I truly despair for humanity, the media have turned our young folks into dumb helpless automatons.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:00 AM

"You just don't get it Jim, you are truly a dinosaur."
No Ake - it's you who don't get it and you never will until you address the fats of people being oppressed by despots who rely on British politicians support and are directly exploited by British firms who profit on starvation-level wages and dangerous working conditions
You want to claim these factors don't exist - prove it with evidence
If you do agree they exist, you are part of that exploitation by supporting it
If you believe it is the lot of the people of the poorer nations top bear their burden without complain, than have the decency lay your cards on the table and say so
You will address none of these because you don't make practice of justifying your arguments - you prefer to just deny and call those who disagree with you "liberals" (which turns out by your confession to be "fascists")
Fascists are those who support repressive dictators and terrorists like "Gaddafi, Saddam and latterly Assad" or claim that mass murderers like Anders Breivik has "something to say worth listening to" or support making refugees wear "yellow star" type identification - (feel free to wear which of these badges you recognise as your own)
Never mind the denial bullshit - which of the claims I have made about our involvement with dictators have I got wrong exactly (I doubt if I will live long enough to be around for an answer - you're "too busy" to involve yourself in open debate so I'll have to settle for your refusal to answer as an indication that you have no argument)
Al
Washing your hands of what our governments do in our name is as bad as Ake's defending it.
I, like you, would like to see Corbyn elected and live up to his promises, but how many more innocent people slaughtered in the meantime
In my lifetime I protested against nuclear arms, racism, South Africa, hospital closures, Vietnam, youth unemployment in the North of England, in support of the miners.
Probably none of this made a happorth of difference to Government policy, but at least I didn't end up with their shit or blood on my hands and I can tell those who come after me what I did in the war.
I see the latest Western involvement in exploitation of the poor has hit the fan this morning
The factory making Ivanka Trump's shoes is under investigation for breaching International Labour Laws and two of the Human Rights investigators have 'disappeared'
We now have a U.S. administration directly implicated in the exploitation of the poor
How dare these "fucking Liberals" make these facts known publicly and "destabilise" our Western well-being!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:03 AM

What utter eyewash. In general today's young people are hard-working, socially responsible and concerned for their futures. I've worked with hundreds of them. Where do you get YOUR information, pray tell?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:08 AM

That was directed at akenaton.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:08 AM

"I truly despair for humanity, the media have turned our young folks into dumb helpless automatons."

Not many of the ones I know.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:33 AM

dumb helpless automatons

Speaking of which, someone does come to mind.......


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:42 AM

Sorry lads - you are wasting your time with this ranting moron
As far as I am concerned these attacks are related directly to our collusion with exploiters and despots and will continue as long as that collusion continues so will our vulnerability increase.
Happy to discuss whether that's accurate or not - feeding the troll is going to send this thread crashing again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 09:08 AM

well lets look at it case by case.

if we don't supply the Saudis with arms, do you really believe no one else will.(rhetorical question, won't bother with a question mark).
british economy would get poorer, less money for good works.

would you rather have the royal family arseholes, or the radical islam arseholes in charge?
that's the only realistic option at this point. THeres not a great deal of incentive for us to destabilise the oppressor, change one gang of head choppers for another.

you might want there to be a different situation, but the only people who can change the rules of this game are the Saudi people themselves.

its not like South Africa - there will be no overnight resolution.
this is a situation we have to live with.

if the Saudis wanted strawberries - we'd try to sell them that.

at the moment , they want arms. we are a trading nation.

its not what we want - its how it is.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 11:11 AM

" do you really believe no one else will."
Pathetic excuse Al - let the ones who sell them buy their dead because of their involvement in this filthy trade - I don't want it on my conscience
Britain as a leading "democratic" nation is ideally placed to give a lead in stopping thhis horrific trade by saying no.
"would you rather have the royal family arseholes, or the radical islam arseholes in charge?"
Pathetic again Al and an argument favoured by right-wing fanatics like Ake
The Arab Spring protests wee attempts to improve conditions and introduce more freedom - not to push a religious line
Our inaction and active participation in providing the wherewithal to suppress the protests drove the protesters into the arms of a tiny group of unknown fanatics who nobody had heard of - it was a golden opportunity to win the friendship of ordinary people - totally missed
If you are suggesting these are the only two alternatives then you really are no different than Ake.
Ther was no "overnight revolution in South Africa - it took decades of protests and boycotts before the regime cracked
"at the moment , they want arms. we are a trading nation."
Then why don't we deal in crack cocaine - I'm sure there's a market for it out ther
We helped start a war because these people were supposed to have weapons and the excuse was that they shouldn't have them - yet we sell them - even to the extent of selling chemicals to a madman who is capable of turning them to arm andd using them on hos own people
Come ooooonnnnnn Al
You can do better than that
It is morally wrong to sell arms to killers
Ji Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 11:18 AM

I've refrained from posting to this thread so far. It's a bit too close to home having happened in my home city.

Could I ask that some of you remember that twenty two people lost the lives and scores were injured, some of whom may never fully recover.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 01:30 PM

Raggy
Discussing this seriously and attempting to work out why these things happen is the only way I can think of to ascertain they don't continue to happen.
I lived in Manchester for four years and still have friends there
I lived through the London bombing campaign during 'The Troubles' and have a relative who had part of her hand blown away by a loyalist bomb - I also have relatives who were driven out of the British North of Ireland for being "the wrong religion".
Whoever is responsible for these things, much of them are being caused by policies carried out in our name.
I think it's well beyond the time that we started taking Ireland, Afghanistan, Syria..... seriously rather than only expressing sympathy and taking sides.
Not sure if it's that that you are getting at.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 01:35 PM

nobody drives you an act like Manchester. Existentially, you have a choice. he didn't have to kill those kids.

now you may wish to have a spotless conscience. but are you willing to put hundreds of people on the dole so that Jim Carrol can say, i will do nothing bad.

And just cos Ake says something - it doesn't mean it is without validity.

would the situation be better if we got rid of the royal family, by denying them our weapon systems, and handed it over to the Taliban.

what will you tell the people being summarily executed for taking their daughters to school. JIm Carrol couldn't bear to deal arms , so we thought we'd better let these bastards take over.

these are the choices May and Corbyn say they are willing to take. Good luck to them


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 02:50 PM

Hi Raggytash

<" Could I ask that some of you remember that twenty two people lost the lives and scores were injured, some of whom may never fully recover.">

I completely agree with you.

I was born in St Mary's Hospital in Manchester and lived my first 8 years in Chorlton. And since then have lived in Greater Manchester.

This outrage has affected many people as well as the 23 murdered people and those still critically injured.

In our village one person was killed and 3 are still very ill in hospital. The village is shattered by the blows.

My son's business partner went the previous day to get tickets for herself and her two young daughters ( one who features in a well known TV advert).

Obviously they are relieved that they couldn't get tickets; but they are heavily affected by it all.

Trying to score political points at a terrible time like this should not happen, particularly so soon after the shocking action.

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 03:06 PM

"now you may wish to have a spotless conscience. but are you willing to put hundreds of people on the dole so that Jim Carrol can say, i will do nothing bad. "
A truly awful attitude Al
Go and look how many people are killed and maimed at the weapons we sell
Would I rather see people on the dole - too ***** right I would   
"And just cos Ake says something - it doesn't mean it is without validity."
I hope you can live with the consequences the next time Assad uses chemicxal weapons built with material we sold him
I don't challenge Ake because it's Ake - I challenge him because of what he says
Sorry Al - we really have nothing more to say to each other
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 03:14 PM

People who try to shut down discussion, are also making political points.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 05:00 PM

"People who try to shut down discussion, are also making political points."
People who try to persuader the unpersuaded wreck threads
DFot he sake of this discussion leave it alone Ake and give those who have something different to say a chance
We've already had more than our share of a turn and I'm sure people know where we all stand
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 07:57 PM

'Would I rather see people on the dole - too ***** right I would'

well good luck with that in your election campaign...

Assad is another interesting one - a complete shit, but really we would prefer him to anything else on offer in that neck of the woods. so really - we're backing him - whatever disclaimers we make about his monstrous behaviour.

You remember when David Owen and Andy Young went jogging in the park together and decided mid jog to drop the Shah of Iran in the shit.
Or when Blair told us we were within 20 mins of being obliterated by Iraq's WMDs, and consequently Saddam had to go. both decisions got rid of nasty leaders - a bit like Assad, but were those decisions in the best interest of those indigenous populations? i suspect not.

these are the kind of decisions that you will be voting about next week. you may not have anything to say about it to me, but i'm not going to deny what i've seen, or pretend that those politicians (even the saintly Corbyn) are not engaged in this sort of realpolitik. Recent events actually suggest he might be the smartest cookie in the box.

doesn't the actual nature of politics interest you at all. what Harold Wilson called the 'galloping pragmatism' of the participants in this game.

morally of course it stinks, but your politicians are working in a sewer. how could it be any other way?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:34 PM

I'm now thinking that I should have agreed with Stu and Acme days ago and just let it be. The sourness and negativity that this thread is generating is thoroughly disrespectful to the victims and families affected by this ghastly atrocity. I'm out of this thread.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 09:45 PM

maybe you're right.

i don't feel i've been sour and negative, no more than usual. i'm just not sure that the idealists are the good guys in this drama.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 01:54 AM

"when Blair told us we were within 20 mins of being obliterated by Iraq's WMDs, and consequently Saddam had to go. both decisions got rid of nasty leaders - a bit like Assad, but were those decisions in the best interest of those indigenous populations? i suspect not."

The only thing is Big Al, Blair never said anything of the sort, a UK tabloid rag called "The Sun" said it and it was 45 minutes not 20. As to the demise of Saddam, I think that if asked the indigenous population, especially the majority Shia population of Iraq would definitely tell you that they were better off now than under Saddam's rule (During which for almost 24 years Saddam's regime on average murdered somewhere between 154 and 252 Iraqis every single day). The other thing is that ISIS is made up of former Iraqi Ba'athist supporters of Saddam Hussein who fled over the border into Syria during the Sunni Awakening in 200/2007.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 04:10 AM

I don't think anyone's posted this link yet, to what John Pilger has found out about what's going on.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/31/terror-in-britain-what-did-the-prime-minister-know/

This is important. Please save it and share it.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 04:40 AM

"John Pilger has found out about what's going on."
Many thanks Jack - that puts the situation where it should be in our minds - Jay-sus!!
Where would we be without the brave journalism of people like Pilger?
I've often wondered why he hasn't ended up sharing a room in exile with Assange or part of the support for a motorway
"well good luck with that in your election campaign..."
When we put winning elections and jobs above peoples' lives we confirm our statu as a true predatory nation Al
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 08:43 AM

Jim , if you're applying for a job lower in the food chain - i think its only fair to point out you may lose some of the benefits you have previously enjoyed and maybe got to rely on.

Teribus
i've no idea how the the Iraqis are getting on, after the war, there were numerous interviews of people on the streets saying they wish, we'd never invaded, and please sod off.

most of the kids i used to teach in Derby were Sunni's. you can see how the the invasion and bombing must have pissed off a lot of Asian Brits.

they said at the time that Asian youth would be 'disenchanted'.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 09:52 AM

My apologies Big Al, I was unaware of the fact that it is forbidden to challenge anything you say without you resorting to insults.

Per capita GDP for Iraq PRIOR to Saddam taking over was something like US$29,000

Per capita GDP for Iraq in 2003 after almost 24 years of Saddam's rule was down to US$509

Per capita GDP for Iraq in 2016 was US$16,500

I'd guess that the above indicates a move in the right direction and the other obvious question that begs answering Big Al - If as you say you ....have no ideas how the Iraqis are getting on.... Then please do not come up with baseless statements (By your own admission) about decisions not being in the best interests of "indigenous people".


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 09:55 AM

I am pretty sure that the 'please sod off' comment was what the Iraqis were saying to us Teribus, not what Al was saying to you. Is this how wars start?

:tG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 10:23 AM

"Jim , if you're applying for a job lower in the food chain - "
Great argument for a return to Empire days where we can happy live off the the poorer nations of the world Al
I have no desire to do that and I never have had.
Perhaps when it becomes impossible to do so, the lesser well off in Britain will get off their arses and do something about the rapidly increasing gap between haves and have nots instead of relying on immoral trade.
It's not a decent argument Al - it debases us as human beings and it's what those in power rely on to maintain a floundering system - divide and conquor.
One thing Isis and Manchester has shown is that to continue treating the Third World as a meal ticket and immigrants as an unwelcome liability is blowing up in our faces and it's ordinary people like bus passengers and young concert goers who are taking the brunt of it.
You can bet your house and land that if these incidents were taking place in Belgravia or the leafy suburbs, Government would take more long-term actions to win hearts and minds to try and to stop them instead of moving the deck-chairs, as they are now.
We cannot continue to live off the misery of the poor of the world.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 10:27 AM

yes Dave that was how it was meant.

as a carer for someone who is disabled - i've watched the electorate taken in by the GDP bollocks, time after time. it hides a multitude of lies and skulduggery and no one but a scoundrel or an economist (I think after the 'monetarism' inspired destruction of British industry, the terms are pretty much interchangeable) would use it.

have you been there? have they restored main services to everyone? has everyone got enough to eat? there now aren't the US led sanctions - so people should be better off. but they could stopped the sanctions without killing anyone.

what is the base of your vast intelligence system. does your circle of friends encompass any Iraqis living there.

Go on! If there was good news I bet we would have been told. You enlighten us all with your personal knowledge.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 10:45 AM

what John Pilger has found out about what's going on.

Has he found anything out?
I think if he had, it would have been picked up by reputable news agencies and outlets.
Has the Guardian picked it up, or BBC or New Statesman?

Why only extreme Left sites?

I think that he has just created a narrative around the events.
One of many possible narratives.

Trump supporters will cheer at this, "In fact, Obama was a leading actor in the "shit show", urged on by his warmongering Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton,"


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 11:13 AM

"Why only extreme Left sites?"
Because the "extreme left" is the only section of politics guaranteed not to be involved in corruption and self-interest, has no racist agenda and has never blamed foreigners for the shortcomings of the system - that is the position of the right.
Pilger's article makes sense and his reputation for honest and unbiased reporting as a HIGHLY QUALIFIED AND RESPECTED JOURNALIST with masses of international experience stands him in good stead.
Much of what he says in his article has long been established
Not your choice of reading Keith, but why should the rabid right have all the best tunes
Of course you could disprove it by - well - disproving it, but we all know that's not going to happen
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 11:53 AM

its all getting a bit like one of those Ibsen plays, Torvald Torvald and Thorestein Schnoodleputz have a plumbing supply business. They have put cheap leaky washers on everyones taps, thereby making an immoral fortune.
40 minutes later Gothen Bergen (unlike his sickly brother Bergen Bergen) opens a window. Symbolising light being shed on the problem.

Eighty minutes later Berghaus Waterproof closes the window.

Curtain.

Discuss.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 03:55 AM

Much of what he says in his article has long been established

Really? What?

Because the "extreme left" is the only section of politics guaranteed not to be involved in corruption and self-interest, has no racist agenda

No true Jim.

You will give no credence to anything from an extreme Right Wing site, and rightly so.
They will say anything to further their agenda, with truth and reality playing no part.
The extreme Left is exactly the same Jim.

If Pilger had really found anything like that it would be a huge story, and Jack would not need to ask us to disseminate it!


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 04:15 AM

If you7 have anything to say that you can disprove of Pilger's article feel free to educate us Keith
Otherwise, please don't be wasting our time.
Denial is boring and, as you have proved over and over again, a diversion from the facts
Finis
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 06:11 AM

Jim . By what you have written previously it would seem your belief in Pilger as having a "reputation for honest and unbiased reporting" is very selective. His writings on the Syrian crisis certainly differ substantially from what you have offered on the subject. Take the white helmets as just one example.
How do you reconcile this ambiguity?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 06:58 AM

Perhaps its JP telling the truth and Jim telling lies? Sorry distorting and misrepresenting, forgot Jim was a "liberal"...it's what they do.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 07:23 AM

Anyway, its a bit rich taking us anti terrorists to task for being disrespectful to the dead, when over 10000 "Mancunians" falsely applied for free tickets (reserved for people who attended the Grande concert) to give admission to a second Concert.


Now that's what I call disrespect!!

You can take the lad out of Manchester, but you can't take Manchester out of the lad...EH?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 07:23 AM

Close this thread, please.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 08:07 AM

"Close this thread, please."
Please do not - I have no intention of responding to these trolls.
It would be a crying shame to allow them to wreck an important discussion such as this.
If people think it would help, I would be prepared to withdraw from it - maybe they believe Jack should withdraw for making this information available also!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 09:56 AM

Is there any concrete evidence to support the assertion that 10,000 Mancunians applied for tickets.

Akenaton, how do you know the people were Mancunians and not people from other areas of the country.

And before you say you used the term "mancunians" your last sentence gives the lie to what you actually meant.


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