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Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017

Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 11:35 AM
akenaton 31 May 17 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 08:00 AM
Stu 31 May 17 - 07:47 AM
akenaton 31 May 17 - 07:14 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 04:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 17 - 04:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 17 - 04:18 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 17 - 03:58 AM
Teribus 31 May 17 - 02:26 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 17 - 12:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 17 - 05:30 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 May 17 - 05:29 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 17 - 03:05 PM
Stu 30 May 17 - 02:59 PM
Greg F. 30 May 17 - 12:50 PM
leeneia 30 May 17 - 12:44 PM
akenaton 30 May 17 - 12:33 PM
Senoufou 30 May 17 - 12:17 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 17 - 12:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 17 - 11:52 AM
Pete from seven stars link 30 May 17 - 11:49 AM
Stu 30 May 17 - 11:09 AM
bobad 30 May 17 - 10:35 AM
Jeri 30 May 17 - 10:34 AM
Big Al Whittle 30 May 17 - 09:55 AM
Steve Shaw 30 May 17 - 07:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 17 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 17 - 06:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 17 - 06:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 17 - 06:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 17 - 05:39 AM
Stu 30 May 17 - 05:36 AM
Big Al Whittle 30 May 17 - 05:13 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 17 - 04:42 AM
David Carter (UK) 30 May 17 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 17 - 03:46 AM
akenaton 30 May 17 - 02:42 AM
Steve Shaw 29 May 17 - 09:34 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 May 17 - 08:02 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 17 - 07:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 May 17 - 06:57 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 17 - 06:24 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 May 17 - 11:25 AM
Stu 29 May 17 - 07:40 AM
Senoufou 29 May 17 - 07:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 May 17 - 06:51 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 17 - 06:19 AM
Steve Shaw 29 May 17 - 05:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 11:35 AM

"That Jim, is the exact opposite of what I mean"
You've been asked to define it and you refuse so I have to go to your source and assume you mean the same as the Lynching man's Crumpet, Ann Coulter (why do I have to stop myself typing Ann Summers whenever I write her name?)
"Can you honestly say that the population of Libya Syria or Iraq "
Of course I can't any more than I can see it under their leadership, but I can see an end to the torture, mass murder and persecution you seem to favour that is a fact of life.
http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21712142-dissidents-are-being-exterminated-syrian-jails-assads-torture-dungeons
Is this really what you are defending Ake
Your rightist extremism appears to have no limits.
These are the conditions the refugees you would refuse entry to or watch drowning are fleeing.
Opinions such as yours will continue to generate the hate for our Western inhumanity and continue to fill body bags.
Hope you're standing tall and proud
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 17 - 11:06 AM

That Jim, is the exact opposite of what I mean. :0)

BTW I would have preferred to see Gaddafi, Assad and yes even Saddam in power than the disaster which has befallen all of these countries since the "liberals" started meddling in things of which they have no understanding......the myth just does not stand up when tested.

Can you honestly say that the population of Libya Syria or Iraq are happier, more secure better educated, better health services, more free, better housed etc, after the removal of their dictators?

If you can, then you are blind as well as stupid.





0


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 09:02 AM

I really think it high time that Ake came out of his closet and started referring to "humanitarians" rather than "liberals"
That is obviously what he means
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 08:00 AM

"Of course De-stabilisation is bad, when there is nothing to fill the vacuum. "
The protests you sneer at were spontaneous actions aimed at improving the lot of the Arab peopl - they were not organised revolutions or the extremist plots you pass them off as.
The West has encouraged the oppression in their own interests and facilitated it with money and arms
Your "Britain First" attitude to immigration has made it clear that it is the interests of the home-grown population that comes first (excluding emigrants that have settled here for generations - your multiculturalism that has "proved a disaster")
How do you squatre that with your demand that dictators abroad should be kept in place for our benefit.
You are expressing the ideology of Empire perfectly - these people, wherever they are, are there to serve us (or our masters)
You want your cake and everybody elses.
Their society should develop to serve their people and we should never have say in who rules of how they should rule.
"Gaddafi, Saddam and latterly Assad" are you out of your mind?
Of course they needed to be kicked into touch - we should never have tolerated and ignored their Crimes against humanity in the first place and the kids of Manchester payed with their lives for our having done so.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 31 May 17 - 07:47 AM

"these same idiot "liberals" would have started screaming again about fucking "rights"."

This is what I'm talking about.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 17 - 07:14 AM

Of course De-stabilisation is bad, when there is nothing to fill the vacuum. Had the US, UK, or any other of the Western nations taken over the governance of Iraq Libya or Syria and stayed till some sort of rule of law was established, these same idiot "liberals" would have started screaming again about fucking "rights".
They live out a myth, where they do tremendous damage but never accept any responsibility.

Of course all Western leaders know that it would be suicidal to attempt such a course, both financially and politically, so we just stick with the de-stabilisation.....it keeps the "liberals" happy and who cares what happens to the indigenous population.

As someone said at the time "Once we had only one Saddam, now we have tens of thousands"


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:24 AM

"That destabilisation happened with our aid.
"liberals" in UK and Us screamed for the removal of Gaddafi, Saddam and latterly Assad."
I think this is a brilliant summing up of the problem Britain is facing and reflects the Establishment's position perfectly - removing the monsters, especially torturers like Assad is regarded as "destabilaisation"
We assist them with weapons and support, we ignore their atrocities, we are indifferent to the suffering of the people they oppress, and when they protest we offer either nothing, or at best, too little, too late.
And we are surprised when the younger generation go over to the extremists!!
The surprise is the more do not go over to them.
Ake's statement is a perfect reflection of the cynical contempt in which we in the wealthy West have always held the poorer nations we ponce off.
It's not too far in the future that the poor of the West will be treated as a "destabilising" element - the cracks are already beginning to surface.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:21 AM

I do not know anything about Abedi, but I think this is part of a continuum of attempted attacks and not a random one off.

Government and security agencies seem to be working on that assumption.

Steve and Dave, is it me being accused of having some kind of agenda?
What and why please?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:18 AM

sorry Teribus!


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 17 - 03:58 AM

Come on keith! You don't KNOW any of that, any more than I do.

You didn't talk to the guy. Did you? And this network of nutty terrorists may just be an optical illusion, brought on by the police covering themselves when everyone at the local mosque was telling them - theres this mad bastard who is on about planting a bomb.

Apart the bit from Justin Beiber...I forgot you and him were mates.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 17 - 02:26 AM

1: No-one has blamed all Muslims for this attack.

2: The reason why the attacker committed this atrocity was in response to UK involvement in strikes against ISIS in Syria.

3: The attackers father fled Gaddafi's Libya and sought asylum in the UK. In July 2011 he returned to Libya to fight with an anti-Gaddafi group with links to Al-Qaeda. Subsequently his sons travelled out there to visit him. It is thought that Abedi visited both Libya and Syria.

4: The crass stupidity of the US Media that prompted publication of first the bombers name and then publication of photographs of forensic evidence recovered from the scene is astounding considering what happened in the USA on the 11th September 2001. Had the information thrown out by US MSM been kept under wraps it would have made the post-explosion police and intelligence work that much easier and could have led to significant arrests - As it was thanks to the NY Times Abedi's associates got the "heads up" and bolted having first destroyed any incriminating evidence.

5: Another concert being held next week-end with Justin Beiber no less - Just when you think that Manchester had suffered enough ......


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 17 - 12:04 AM

well its the week before the election - human nature being what it is - with so much at stake - theres not much that's off limits.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:30 PM

I just wish we could talk about it without the usual political posturing. I am from Manchester, just 4 miles from the centre, although we 'emigrated' across the border 4 years ago. A good friend was working at the Arena that night. He was almost family in his younger days and now he has a partner and children of his own we are still close. It does drive these things home but you can see the way the press and some on here are trying to work it into their own agenda. Trying to improve the situation by learning from past mistakes is commendable. Trying to make political capital our of human tragedy is despicable.

Just my 2p.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:29 PM

I'm sorry that people aren't talking about it in precisely the terms you want, Stu. but maybe its the terms they need to think of it in.

Because you know, I believe some people find it easier to accept that these terrible happening are part of some great conspiracy that we can legislate against. The sheer senselessness of those murders is hard to understand.

There was a programme on TV this morning on PBS about the Lincoln assasination.

What was very obvious that most of the people who got hanged had no real wish to be involved. there was a conspiracy but it was in the head of one very disturbed individual. Most of the people in the group enjoyed talking about being terrorists - but only two actually did any terrorising.

I think thus it is. Think of all the bloodcurdling Irish rebel ballads and their calls for vengeance. few people have got the real desire for actual homicide. And they probably would have been murderers in any walk of life. Products of a society which couldn't find a role for them that satisfied their desire to be                        important.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 17 - 03:05 PM

Sadly, you're right about that.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 17 - 02:59 PM

"By the way, there's nothing wrong with our talking about this"

You know what, you're right. It's a shame some don't though.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:50 PM

evidence of a lot of adherents of a certain religion that sympathise with the atrocity.

Plenty of people of another "certain religion" sympathize with and support folks like Jeremy Joseph Christian (aptly named).

"liberals" in UK and Us screamed for the removal

So in your parallel universe, Ake, Geo. W. Bush, "Mad Dog" Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney are "liberals"?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: leeneia
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:44 PM

Maybe four or five years ago I read an article in the KC Star about a young "suicide bomber." it may change your views some.

She was an Iraqi, 14 years old and suffered from rheumatoid arthritis. Her family "married" her to an al-Queda leader, a man she had hardly ever seen.   She was kept in an apartment in Baghdad, surrounded by women associates of her so-called husband. One day, the women got strangely nice to her, and they gave her come delicious apricot juice.

The next thing she knew, she was wandering around a market, feeling dazed and wearing a vest full of explosives. A policeman came up to her and removed the components that would have detonated the vest. She was taken into custody, and no doubt her life was never the same after that. I would like to know where she is now, but no doubt that would be dangerous for her.

So now you know another way that "suicide bombers" are made.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:33 PM

The destabilisation of Libya and Iraq allowed the terrorists to organise.....That destabilisation happened with our aid.
"liberals" in UK and Us screamed for the removal of Gaddafi, Saddam and latterly Assad.

Anyone stating that truth is not disrespecting our armed forces, who must go where they are sent by the government of the day.

The rise of Jihadi terrorism corresponded to the demise of these leaders, leaving a vacuum which the terrorists filled and expanded their territory. Only after Putin stepped in to assist Assad did the downward spiral end and the terrorists start to retreat.

Response to Western values is indeed what drives these people to perform their atrocities.......the perpetrators may be mad or brainwashed, but the leaders of Wahhabi Islam are afraid that the tide of Western "liberalism" may reduce their power and see their religion go the way of Christianity.
There is no doubt that Western social values have nose dived in the last couple of decades and we live in a decadent society, but the response of these people is far beyond the pale and verging on crime against humanity.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:17 PM

Abedi had dropped out of University. While there, he had joined no societies neither involved himself with any student activities.
He apparently went out drinking (!) and had small convictions for theft, minor assault and receiving stolen goods, committed after the age of only 16.
He often stood in the street outside his house and bellowed out the first Muslim prayer of the day. His parents spent a lot of time abroad in Libya (and possibly Syria)
He seems to have been a strange and troubled young man. One wonders just what he was exposed to during his trips to Libya/Syria; possibly some form of brain-washing. It may have given him some sort of 'identity' and 'purpose',as he appeared to have found none during his younger days.
Please don't imagine I'm trying to excuse what he did. But he was very young, and while not mentally ill (I assume) had evidently been marginalised and indoctrinated by people much wickeder than him.
I wonder if I'm the only person on the planet who also feels sad for him too?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:09 PM

I take your point about the police, Al, and suspect that most or all of those arrested will be released without charge. However, assembling the materials to make a suicide bomb is hard. That is a point in favour of his being part of a ring, something the police and security services have emphasised. If he is, we need to know.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with our talking about this. It's a very human thing to talk about distressing things that happen, just like it's very human to talk about jolly things. This thread is the appropriate place to talk about it. If you disagree, don't read it. If someone is displaying bad taste we can say so, but that's a different thing.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 17 - 11:52 AM

Our Security Services tell us that they know of 20 000 in UK who are sympathetic to the terrorists. Abedi was one of those, not even one of the further 3000 considered to pose a high risk of carrying out an act of terror.
We also have hundeds of actual ISIS fighters who have returned here from Syria, so we are kidding ourselves if we pretend that this is just some random "nutcase loser."

Guardian, "Around 850 British fighters have joined Isis or other jihadi groups such al-Nusra Front and in some cases the war against the regime of the Syrian leader, Bashar al-Assad. It is believed around half of these fighters have returned to the UK and around 200 have died. "
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/26/isis-exodus-foreign-fighters-caliphate-crumbles

Independent, "In the wake of the Manchester suicide bombing it emerged that British authorities were grappling with 500 investigations into 3,000 individuals.
On Friday security sources confirmed a further 20,000 individuals were said to have been considered "subjects of interest" in the past,"
(Abedi one of them)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/security-mi5-23000-subjects-interest-counter-terrorism-manchester-abedi-police-a7758671.html


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 May 17 - 11:49 AM

That vid won't play here in England bobad , but I assume the channel 4 documentary finds evidence of a lot of adherents of a certain religion that sympathise with the atrocity. That is truly alarming if it's reliable reporting. But it is evidently not universal as is evident from the fact that all sorts of people , including the religion in question, we're offering help following the atrocity


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 17 - 11:09 AM

"You were not there in person yourself either, Stu. By your own reckoning that makes you just as unqualified to tell us who gets it or who doesn't as the rest of us."

Yeah, you're right. But I've talked to people directly involved, not got my information from the media. I don't say this gives me any special insight, just that this thread has become the usual echo chamber of bullshit discussing stuff that would be better on a thread of it's own.

How are Manchester and surrounds coping? As it always does, with no bullshit and lots of spirit.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 17 - 10:35 AM

If he is simply a "nut case loser" then, according to the survey documented in this VIDEO, there are at least a hundred thousand more "nut case losers" in your country that sympathize with his action.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jeri
Date: 30 May 17 - 10:34 AM

I think if the Columbine shootings happened today, or many other mass murders by disgruntled people trying to get noticed, they'd claim they were part of that network. The "network" would happily accept their claimed loyalty, as it furthered their goal of promoting hatred and provoking war. And the "other side" who also wanted war, would happily buy their lies and post shit about it in forums around the world. Nothing is as much fun as hate, right? Tools.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 17 - 09:55 AM

well, we don't know for certain he was part of a network.

its only what the cops have said, and frankly they're chasing round like blue arsed flies trying to cover themselves.

all these arrests - its very reminiscent of 'the troubles'.....or am I the only person who feels a twinge of extreme caution.

he looks more like a nutcase loser to me than an urban guerilla.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 17 - 07:04 AM

You were not there in person yourself either, Stu. By your own reckoning that makes you just as unqualified to tell us who gets it or who doesn't as the rest of us.

Anyone who can do what Abedi did is insane, a sicko. Lone in the sense that he did it alone. But we don't know whether he acted alone. Quite likely not. If the frequency of fatal accidents on our roads increases, we don't shrug and just say that accidents are isolated incidents caused by lone bad drivers. We try to find out what's going on and act accordingly, by making cars safer, by better driver training, lower speed limits maybe, stricter laws on using mobile phones etc. There's a worrying-high rate of suicides among young men. We try to find out why and face up to the issues. We need to know why we get terrorist incidents on our streets. Giving up by declaring that it's just lone sickos doesn't cut it. There's work to be done and a discussion to be had, otherwise we are doomed always to react and never to preempt. Neither does claiming that the only people who "get it" are the people who were there.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 17 - 06:23 AM

Glad we are agreed then. Hopefully the thread will not be derailed again.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 17 - 06:10 AM

No it does not, but I would want to know who did it and why.
I think that we all want to know that.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 17 - 06:06 AM

It doesn't matter to those killed or to those who are grieving what type of criminal they are.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 17 - 06:01 AM

The difference is that this killer was part of a network who shared his motivation.
If only he was a lone sicko.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:39 AM

I am happy to return to the thread given the new guidelines.

Al has a very good point

how can it have significance...other than mindless brutality.
its just the same kind of angst behind Columbine, Hungerford, Dunblane.


It is the same. As I said early on, these people are criminals, even if they see themselves as something else and it is as criminals they should be treated. There is no single line of blame nor is there one single solution.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:36 AM

"I don't agree with Stu when he accuses us of not knowing what we're talking about."

Of course you don't. But you don't.


I saw my mum last night, and her friend's granddaughter had to walk thought the foyer too, and the girl she hasn't slept since. Once again, the details are horrific.

This thread was originally about the horror of the act itself and our standing together with the victims, most of which were kids. As usual these threads become bickering pits for people with entrenched opinions that will never change. Look at this thread. No-one is listening to each other.

I'm not sorry of being upset, this is close to home and people I know personally and care for have been affected. I'm not judging anyone here, but you could take it elsewhere, because this crap isn't about the bomb or it's victims. Too much to hope for on Mudcat these days.


"i dunno, i don't feel i've got anything to tell the world. i suddenly feel old and useless."

Yep, me too Al. None of us know shit.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:13 AM

nonsense is the only thing you can talk about this incident.
it makes no sense.

the idea that any political advantage; moral victory; act of closure or revenge; waging of holy war - could be achieved by the slaughter of innocents....

i don't get it.
how can it have significance...other than mindless brutality.
its just the same kind of angst behind Columbine, Hungerford, Dunblane.

The perpetrator, a member of our society - may have thought he had a political agenda, but he was just sick.

To interpret it as a response to the activities of our soldiers carrying out our foreign policy is to invest it with a dignity it has no proper claim to.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 17 - 04:42 AM

Blqaming the media is a disturbing cop-out which, I believe emanates from what is happening in the U.S.
Any dictator worth his or her salt wil not try to ban the media but will seek to control it - that is what Trump's campaign is about at present.
Our terrorirst problem is not tehe fault of what the papers say but the fact that the bulk of our national press is at the disposal of the establishment
That is what needs changing and until it does, we need to learn to read between the lines
Without a (even partially free) national press we would have to rely totally on officially government statements - god help us all.
Don't let the politicians off the hook by blaming Murdoch - that's tantamount to kicking the milkman's horse when you find his master in bed with your wife (to lapse into an old sexist joke)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 17 - 03:57 AM

Ake, I think part of the problem is that many mainstream Muslims, encouraged by our media and by their less principled leaders, find it difficult to distinguish between Western values and the actions of Western governments.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 17 - 03:46 AM

"but Jim and Keith, you have to take it outside somewhere else. You hijack threads with your same old nonsense."
I agree that our arguments get out of hand (have decided to wash my hands of Keith, but the fact that he posts as persistently as he does makes that difficult)
Will try to do better in the future - I really don't enjoy these set-tos
I resent bitterly having my arguments described as "the same old nonsense"
I believe these discussions need to be more than deserved laments for the dead and have to be dealt with in depth if they are going to have any value.
As far as I am concerned, they are the work of fanatics whose religion-driven rationale (a contradiction in terms?) it totally beyond me, but I also believe that the root cause of the support they are getting lies much closer to home and the behaviour of our politicians and financial bodies play a large part in what is happening.
Brushing that fact under the carpet is only going to lead to more bloodshed and more disaffection.
Our politicians speak on our behalf so we become the targets - they have their R.S.Gs to scurry into if the worst comes to the worst; we don't.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 17 - 02:42 AM

The problem Al, is that our lives and how we live them are almost completely determined by the media....we are told what to think by teams from a social and political elite.....the world is changing into some sort of Disneyland/Hammer Horror amalgamation.

I agree about our crass foreign policy commitments, which are part of media/elite game, but there is no doubt Keith is correct that the Jihadists and many of the mainstream Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa see Western values as debauched and a creeping threat to their way of life.

We need a proper serious and HONEST debate on all issues, before we float off into "Neverland"


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 17 - 09:34 PM

You're not useless to me, Al!

(Jaysus, I bet that makes you feel good...)


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 17 - 08:02 PM

i dunno, i don't feel i've got anything to tell the world. i suddenly feel old and useless.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:51 PM

I don't agree with you and I don't agree with Stu when he accuses us of not knowing what we're talking about. The debate can't be restricted just to those directly affected, as much as their input is valuable. "Old men" (and old women) have a lifetime of experience behind them. True, in some people's cases nothing seems to have stuck. But a long lifetime's accumulated experience of the vicissitudes of life can lend a degree of objectivity, perspective and philosophy. 'Twas ever thus, and it can occasionally help to temper the ardour of passionate youth. As long as we have our antennae fine-tuned to the "things weren't like this in my day" brigade...


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:57 PM

to be honest i don't know what triggered the closedown. i agree theres nothing we can say that makes it better.

i suppose people grieve in their own way. and i'm sorry if what we said upset you Stu. i'm sure none of us would have wanted to do that.

i suppose what it is, we all look for explanations in the face of something horrible like this.

of course there are none. so the most familiar record starts playing and the same old nonsense comes out of our mouths - we're old men and its how we react to everything.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:24 PM

Good call in more ways than one, Acme.

I know it's contentious, but I think a discussion of the effects of western foreign policy on the breeding of terrorism is germane. I note that Jeremy Corbyn was attacked for appearing to suggest a link. He parried the blow pretty well. I'm not happy with the "told you so, we had it coming" brigade. If somebody blows innocent people to kingdom come, they are mass murderers who are one hundred percent responsible for their actions. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a debate to be had. This world is filled with human beings capable of love but also capable of resentment at mistreatment. It would be stupid to suggest that that can't spill over into action. Bad action, unjustified action, but action. It would also be stupid to suggest that the west has the monopoly on justice and fair play. I gave Keith a number of instances of how the west undermines democracy and props up vicious dictators. The examples are legion, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 17 - 11:25 AM

Agreed, Stu gets the last word. The thread has strayed way off topic.

I had a query about leaving this open - okay, but Jim and Keith, you have to take it outside somewhere else. You hijack threads with your same old nonsense.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:40 AM

So... I had two friends with daughters there, one a close friend that I saw for the first time yesterday and got to discuss the events with him. The details are pretty awful and it was a frightening, confusing situation for the people involved and thankfully everyone was OK physically, although they saw things no child should ever see and it must have been terrible.

Some of the people on this thread should take a long, hard look at how they conduct themselves in discussions like this. You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about in this case.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:14 AM

I think it's a complex problem that needs a complex solution.

Government Intelligence should be increased so that more plots could be unearthed before disasters happen.

Known terrorist plotters and offenders in our country should be arrested and imprisoned.

Radicalised young people should be approached with an intent to listen and try to understand their mindset. Young men who feel isolated and unaccepted should be reassured and encouraged.

Politically we should keep our noses out of regimes and governments which are none of our business.

Individually we should try not to become racist or condemn whole sections of our population for the actions of a few. We should see all human beings as of value.

We should all try to hold on tightly to the spirit of tolerance, acceptance and fellow-feeling which has been a characteristic of many ordinary folk in our country. (As shown in Manchester by the mutual support and friendship of many religious groups and races)


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:51 AM

you've forgotten Keith - thing were just as unstable in the past.

in the '60's the sea green incorruptibles were waving red books and shouting, 'hey! hey! LBJ! How many kids did you kill today?' we scared the shit out of our parents.

luckilly we didn't have access to weapons. in germany they had baader meinhoff, in America they had the weathermen, the simbianese liberation army. Stokely Carmichael, George Jackson, Angela Davis, Soledad Brother.....

in the 70's the IRA looked just as intractable> And the threat is still there...

in a way you can't have honest equal negotiation with people who are prepared to go that far.

but in the end, its the Mo Mowlams and John Majors and Bill Clintons- the ones who are willing to try for that who get stuff sorted out and civilisation back on track. ...not the Thatcher No Surrender merchants.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:19 AM

"Does anyone?
ou've been given the first essential step Keith - winning hearts and minds" ( a far cry from descibing them as a community of potential perverts who have to resist their cultural implant to stop them from raping children
Such attitudes set the fuses to these suicide bombs
THe values you trumpet so persistently about are really not much to write home about
A survey suggested that a third of the British population hold and have expressed racist views - not many hearts and minds in hat one
Britain may not have been part of teh Vietnam atrocities but our leaders sat like nodding dogs and watched for fourteen years while the Yanks poured burning petrol on Vietnamese peasants
Not a "value" I'd be happy to sweater on my Tee-shirt
Our glorious leader, speaking on our behalf presumably, accused those trying to brin mass-murderer to trial for his slaughter of young people as "running a police state" and announced that he was her kind of democrat
Very praiseworthy
Nobody is suggesting this massacre wasn't ideologically driven nd it's not helpful to suggest somebody is - it is the ideology of fanatics - every religion has them to one degree or another.
Stop twisting peoples' words
Iead this morning that an Anerican Christian went berserk of a train, cut the throats of two passengers and stabbed another
Elswehere, a Christian shot six people and said he hoped God would take him
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 17 - 05:56 AM

Your western liberal values were at play in all those situations. I want to know what values they hate us for. I want to know if they hate us for the values we exhibited in the situations I mentioned. I don't see anything particularly "liberal" in the values that support Israel's regime in its repression of Gaza, in backing terrorists in Nicaragua, in the ousting of democratic governments in favour of dictators, in setting fire to children in villages and in the propping up of vicious despots. And I am not saying that there is a provable connection between foreign policy and terrorism. But I am saying, without justifying it in the slightest way, that foreign policy may engender bitter feelings and that fanatics will use those feelings as an excuse to justify attacks on western countries. By the way, I don't think it's a tit-for-tat. Belgium may not have been upfront in the aggression shown by the west, but that is not the point. The terrorists' apparently random attacks are intended to provoke fear and insecurity in the west in general. They are not pinpoint revenge attacks.


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