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Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017

Stilly River Sage 22 May 17 - 08:51 PM
Mrrzy 22 May 17 - 11:05 PM
Bonzo3legs 23 May 17 - 02:46 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 17 - 02:55 AM
David Carter (UK) 23 May 17 - 03:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 May 17 - 03:08 AM
theleveller 23 May 17 - 03:24 AM
Senoufou 23 May 17 - 03:58 AM
theleveller 23 May 17 - 04:01 AM
Senoufou 23 May 17 - 04:21 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 May 17 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 17 - 05:39 AM
Stu 23 May 17 - 06:03 AM
Senoufou 23 May 17 - 08:19 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 May 17 - 08:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 May 17 - 09:42 AM
Dave Hanson 23 May 17 - 10:14 AM
Jack Campin 23 May 17 - 10:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 May 17 - 11:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 17 - 11:41 AM
akenaton 23 May 17 - 12:16 PM
Senoufou 23 May 17 - 12:43 PM
Ed. 23 May 17 - 12:48 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 May 17 - 01:13 PM
Ed. 23 May 17 - 01:30 PM
akenaton 23 May 17 - 01:38 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 May 17 - 02:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 May 17 - 03:04 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 May 17 - 04:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 May 17 - 04:13 PM
Steve Shaw 23 May 17 - 04:54 PM
akenaton 23 May 17 - 04:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 May 17 - 05:23 PM
akenaton 23 May 17 - 05:33 PM
Tattie Bogle 23 May 17 - 06:19 PM
Jack Campin 23 May 17 - 06:55 PM
Jack Campin 23 May 17 - 07:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 May 17 - 08:06 PM
Steve Shaw 23 May 17 - 08:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 May 17 - 08:42 PM
Backwoodsman 24 May 17 - 02:54 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 17 - 03:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 17 - 04:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 17 - 04:57 AM
Jack Campin 24 May 17 - 05:31 AM
Senoufou 24 May 17 - 07:49 AM
Stu 24 May 17 - 08:18 AM
BanjoRay 24 May 17 - 08:28 AM
bobad 24 May 17 - 08:44 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 17 - 09:37 AM
Mrrzy 24 May 17 - 09:44 AM
Teribus 24 May 17 - 10:30 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 May 17 - 10:59 AM
akenaton 24 May 17 - 11:12 AM
Greg F. 24 May 17 - 11:13 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 17 - 11:26 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 May 17 - 11:46 AM
akenaton 24 May 17 - 12:13 PM
Teribus 24 May 17 - 12:17 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 17 - 01:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 17 - 01:08 PM
Bonzo3legs 24 May 17 - 01:37 PM
Teribus 24 May 17 - 03:16 PM
Teribus 24 May 17 - 03:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 17 - 07:36 PM
Greg F. 24 May 17 - 07:59 PM
Steve Shaw 24 May 17 - 08:03 PM
Teribus 25 May 17 - 01:03 AM
akenaton 25 May 17 - 02:46 AM
Teribus 25 May 17 - 03:07 AM
Johnny J 25 May 17 - 03:08 AM
Johnny J 25 May 17 - 03:18 AM
Senoufou 25 May 17 - 03:37 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 17 - 03:53 AM
Stu 25 May 17 - 07:14 AM
akenaton 25 May 17 - 07:29 AM
Steve Shaw 25 May 17 - 07:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 May 17 - 08:08 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 17 - 08:51 AM
Greg F. 25 May 17 - 09:32 AM
Senoufou 25 May 17 - 09:49 AM
Donuel 25 May 17 - 12:26 PM
Johnny J 26 May 17 - 03:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 17 - 04:36 AM
Bonzo3legs 26 May 17 - 04:39 AM
theleveller 26 May 17 - 04:40 AM
Iains 26 May 17 - 04:57 AM
Steve Shaw 26 May 17 - 07:41 AM
Stilly River Sage 26 May 17 - 08:37 AM
Paul Reade 26 May 17 - 09:06 AM
theleveller 26 May 17 - 10:08 AM
Vashta Nerada 26 May 17 - 12:07 PM
theleveller 26 May 17 - 12:20 PM
Greg F. 26 May 17 - 12:55 PM
Senoufou 26 May 17 - 01:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 May 17 - 05:51 AM
Stu 27 May 17 - 07:21 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 May 17 - 09:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 17 - 11:28 AM
theleveller 27 May 17 - 11:32 AM
Raggytash 27 May 17 - 11:46 AM
Steve Shaw 27 May 17 - 07:40 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 May 17 - 02:28 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 17 - 03:42 AM
DMcG 28 May 17 - 04:23 AM
Senoufou 28 May 17 - 04:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 17 - 04:41 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 17 - 05:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 17 - 06:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 May 17 - 06:47 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 17 - 07:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 May 17 - 07:51 AM
bobad 28 May 17 - 07:57 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 17 - 08:26 AM
bobad 28 May 17 - 08:35 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 17 - 08:57 AM
bobad 28 May 17 - 09:01 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 17 - 09:16 AM
Senoufou 28 May 17 - 09:32 AM
bobad 28 May 17 - 09:41 AM
bobad 28 May 17 - 09:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 May 17 - 10:00 AM
Jeri 28 May 17 - 10:02 AM
bobad 28 May 17 - 10:14 AM
Jeri 28 May 17 - 10:28 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 17 - 10:59 AM
bobad 28 May 17 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 17 - 12:08 PM
bobad 28 May 17 - 12:29 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 17 - 12:30 PM
bobad 28 May 17 - 12:37 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 17 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 28 May 17 - 01:23 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 May 17 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 28 May 17 - 02:26 PM
bobad 28 May 17 - 02:31 PM
David Carter (UK) 28 May 17 - 03:10 PM
bobad 28 May 17 - 04:30 PM
Greg F. 28 May 17 - 06:39 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 May 17 - 11:24 PM
Jim Carroll 29 May 17 - 01:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 May 17 - 03:43 AM
Thompson 29 May 17 - 04:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 May 17 - 04:58 AM
Steve Shaw 29 May 17 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 17 - 06:19 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 May 17 - 06:51 AM
Senoufou 29 May 17 - 07:14 AM
Stu 29 May 17 - 07:40 AM
Stilly River Sage 29 May 17 - 11:25 AM
Steve Shaw 29 May 17 - 06:24 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 May 17 - 06:57 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 17 - 07:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 May 17 - 08:02 PM
Steve Shaw 29 May 17 - 09:34 PM
akenaton 30 May 17 - 02:42 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 17 - 03:46 AM
David Carter (UK) 30 May 17 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 17 - 04:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 30 May 17 - 05:13 AM
Stu 30 May 17 - 05:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 17 - 05:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 17 - 06:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 17 - 06:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 17 - 06:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 17 - 06:23 AM
Steve Shaw 30 May 17 - 07:04 AM
Big Al Whittle 30 May 17 - 09:55 AM
Jeri 30 May 17 - 10:34 AM
bobad 30 May 17 - 10:35 AM
Stu 30 May 17 - 11:09 AM
Pete from seven stars link 30 May 17 - 11:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 17 - 11:52 AM
Steve Shaw 30 May 17 - 12:09 PM
Senoufou 30 May 17 - 12:17 PM
akenaton 30 May 17 - 12:33 PM
leeneia 30 May 17 - 12:44 PM
Greg F. 30 May 17 - 12:50 PM
Stu 30 May 17 - 02:59 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 17 - 03:05 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 May 17 - 05:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 17 - 05:30 PM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 17 - 12:04 AM
Teribus 31 May 17 - 02:26 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 17 - 03:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 17 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 17 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 04:24 AM
akenaton 31 May 17 - 07:14 AM
Stu 31 May 17 - 07:47 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 09:02 AM
akenaton 31 May 17 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 11:35 AM
akenaton 31 May 17 - 11:43 AM
akenaton 31 May 17 - 11:57 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 01:41 PM
Greg F. 31 May 17 - 01:51 PM
Teribus 31 May 17 - 02:24 PM
Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 03:26 PM
Jim Carroll 31 May 17 - 03:32 PM
Donuel 31 May 17 - 03:56 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 02:42 AM
akenaton 01 Jun 17 - 02:58 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 03:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 06:22 AM
akenaton 01 Jun 17 - 06:59 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 08:00 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 17 - 08:03 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 17 - 08:08 AM
Stu 01 Jun 17 - 08:08 AM
Greg F. 01 Jun 17 - 08:33 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 08:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 09:08 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 11:11 AM
Raggytash 01 Jun 17 - 11:18 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 01:30 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 01:35 PM
MikeL2 01 Jun 17 - 02:50 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 03:06 PM
akenaton 01 Jun 17 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 17 - 05:00 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 07:57 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 17 - 08:34 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 17 - 09:45 PM
Teribus 02 Jun 17 - 01:54 AM
Jack Campin 02 Jun 17 - 04:10 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 17 - 04:40 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jun 17 - 08:43 AM
Teribus 02 Jun 17 - 09:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jun 17 - 09:55 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 17 - 10:23 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jun 17 - 10:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 17 - 10:45 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 17 - 11:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jun 17 - 11:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 17 - 03:55 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 17 - 04:15 AM
Iains 03 Jun 17 - 06:11 AM
akenaton 03 Jun 17 - 06:58 AM
akenaton 03 Jun 17 - 07:23 AM
Stu 03 Jun 17 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 17 - 08:07 AM
Raggytash 03 Jun 17 - 09:56 AM
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Subject: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 May 17 - 08:51 PM

A family-friendly concert at Manchester Arena in the UK was apparently targeted by a bomb. They're now beginning to say "suicide bomber."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-security-manchester-idUSKBN18I2OP

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/europe/manchester-arena-incident/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-40007886.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/manchester-arena-explosions-live-updates-10478943


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 May 17 - 11:05 PM

Manchester, England, England, so sorry.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 May 17 - 02:46 AM

Terrible, I'm sure I don't need to elaborate on which fucking bastards were behind this.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 02:55 AM

"I'm sure I don't need to elaborate on which fucking bastards were behind this."
Yeah - we can bet that he was the wrong colour or from the wrong religion.
Why bother to wait for the facts before we throw the rope over the branch
Personally, I have a problem in distinguishing between raving bigots Bozo - they all look the same to me.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 May 17 - 03:02 AM

Please do Bonzo, because I don't think anyone else knows at present.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 17 - 03:08 AM

A friend was working there as a lighting rigger. He is fine but my heart goes out to those affected. Remember this is not the first time Manchester has suffered a terror attack and the earlier ones had nothing to do with this current spate of terrorists. They are all just criminals. No more no less.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: theleveller
Date: 23 May 17 - 03:24 AM

This is a terrible tragedy that feels especially close to home as my own kids often go to concerts there. It's not helpful at this stage to speculate on who carried out this attack but at this stage police are saying it was a single individual with a makeshift bomb. If this is the case, it's incredibly difficult to guard against: a lone actor who may have got details of bomb-making from the internet. Please let's not have an anti-Islamic backlash - I have Muslim friends who also often go to the Arena and I know they will condemn this insane act as wholeheartedly as the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 03:58 AM

I've just learned about this. 19 dead so far and 59 injured.
I'm so sorry for the families of those killed, my heart goes out to them.
Appalling.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: theleveller
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:01 AM

I've just heard that the daughter of a friend was at the concert but, thankfully, she's unharmed.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:21 AM

It's come to the point where any mass gathering could be viewed as highly dangerous.
I feel very sorry too for the Emergency Service personnel, dealing with the horrific aftermath.
22 now dead apparently.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:50 AM

Thoughts and prayers are with the families, and all those involved in the trauma of the event.

Good news came out as well, on Radio 4 this morning.
Cabbies giving free transport
Local hotel taking in children & giving them help phoning parents.
Local families taking in strangers as guests overnight.

Well done Manchester!


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:39 AM

In the last few days I've had occasion to seek help from the Greater Manchester Police (the thing is resolved so I won't go into it). We've been dealt with with the utmost speed and sensitivity and the community officers who helped us had all the time and patience in the world for us. I can't speak highly enough of them.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:03 AM

Just saw a post from a mate who was there with his daughter and saw the blast. They're OK apart from ringing in the ears.

Manchester comes together at times like this, is a strong and independent city that thrives on it's diversity that has music, culture and northern spirit at it's heart. It's a fantastic place, a great city to live so close to and I love the place.

The city has been bombed before and came back stronger than ever, so get to fuck the person/people who did this.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:19 AM

I can't imagine what the bomber hoped to achieve by this act.
Support for Isis? Persuade everyone that we all need Shariah Law? Perhaps not even a Muslim at all.
A personal statement of political disagreement? Was he/she just a loner with a grudge? A nerd who researched online about bomb manufacture and wanted to 'try it out'?
There isn't one single reason I can come up with why anyone sane would do this.
My husband wondered if there had been security checks on bags etc at the venue. I suppose the numbers of people at the concert were just too great to search everyone thoroughly.
I feel such sorrow for all involved. Nowhere is safe now.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:40 AM

apparently security wasn't too good, and emergency evacuation procedures weren't up to scratch.

Still, its a bit of a bugger such things are necessary. i don't think you can blame anyone except the perpetrator.

probably some sad git getting bomb making information off the net.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 17 - 09:42 AM

I don't think the bomb was actually taken into the arena. From what they have said on the news it was detonated in the foyer as people were leaving. I suppose the checks are not as stringent at that time but guess that may now change.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 May 17 - 10:14 AM

The bombers aim [ as well as murdering innocent people ] was to get an anti muslim backlash, in an attempt to gain support for isis, when will these morons ever learn ? we won 2 world wars for fucks sake, we will never be beaten by this rabble.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 May 17 - 10:48 AM

It is unlikely that somebody who commits suicide while mass-murdering teenage girls has any sort of ideology as their primary motivation. We're talking raving nutters here. Psychos usually find some sort of belief system to justify their actions (as Breivik did) but the appropriate intervention isn't counter-propaganda, it's clozapine.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 17 - 11:23 AM

I wonder if theres a condition known as arseholitis.

The symptons being the desire to be an arsehole. Like the people who hacked the NHS.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 11:41 AM

The bomber has been named.
He was of Libyan origin.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 17 - 12:16 PM

Security expert on BBVC today, "Expect chemical or biological attack" quite soon.

These people have to be dealt with, no excuses. Soon it will be them or us.
Most important thing is to get world powers talking as a unit against terrorism not using it as a tactic score points or increase personal power.....we also must start to realise that this is not going to go away, soon it will affect our lives negatively.....hand wringing wont cut it, we must start addressing problems head on.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 12:43 PM

It's a bit difficult to 'address the problem' when the perpetrators are not easy to pin down in any one country. This bomber was (according to latest reports) a Libyan. But there have been terrorist attacks by Brits (Lee Rigby for example was hacked to pieces by black British fundamentalists) One never knows when, where or how they will strike. That's the very nature of terrorism.

I'm a bit concerned for my husband to be honest. The very word 'Muslim' dare hardly speak its name. He starts Ramadan next weekend. I so hope people won't treat him unkindly because of this event in Manchester.
The Internet is full of vituperative invective against any and all Muslims.
I have fond memories of Tripoli. The Libyans I met there were delightful. One can't tar everyone with the same brush.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Ed.
Date: 23 May 17 - 12:48 PM

Yes, Bonzo3legs talks a great deal of right wing crap, however:

"I'm sure I don't need to elaborate on which fucking bastards were behind this."

You can write all the leftie shite you want, Jim Carroll, but he was right, wasn't he?

Yeah - we can bet that he was the wrong colour or from the wrong religion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40020168


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:13 PM

well it was never going to be the Young Methodists behind it.
don't lets argue about it though.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Ed.
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:30 PM

Entirely with you Big Al, but Bonzo and Jim seem to find the need to stir things up...


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:38 PM

It seems this lunatic was a supporter of one of the groups which we assisted, in deposing and murdering Colonel Gaddafi.

An "Arab Springer"


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 17 - 02:55 PM

i couldn't give a shit if he was in Green Peace - he shouldn't have done that. i don't know why we seem to be producing so many anti social buggers.

in England we have so many villains - our main growth industry seems to be true crime television programmes.

theres no pattern to it. every class seems to be represented as choosing outrageous crime - rape, murder, etc. as a career choice. just watch a true crime channel, and see if i'm wrong.

you'd think with more education, more cultural events, more facilities, much more entertainment...we'd produce nice people.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 17 - 03:04 PM

And yet when Theresa May said in the House of Commons that she would be willing to launch a nuclear attack killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people she was applauded. When Jeremy Corbyn said on TV that he would not be willing it was widely said that this proved he was unfit to be Prime Minister.

We seem to have different attitudes towards some kinds of suicide bombers.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:12 PM

I'm sorry you perceive no moral difference in the people who defend our country, and the nutter who can't be arsed to get his GCSE's and do a normal sort of job - so he chooses this sort of outlaw act - cleaning the streets up, i believe the Yorkshire Ripper called it.

Perhaps you are right and there is no difference.

Come a long way haven't we?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:13 PM

Misrepresentation and political rhetoric

The bomber has been named.
He was of Libyan origin.


It seems this lunatic was a supporter of one of the groups which we assisted, in deposing and murdering Colonel Gaddafi.

An "Arab Springer"


Actual fact

Born in Manchester in 1994, the second youngest of four children his parents were Libyan refugees who came to the UK to escape the Gaddafi regime.

Sick puppies trying to make political points out of the death of innocents. I suggest that we ignore them.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:54 PM

"i couldn't give a shit if he was in Green Peace - he shouldn't have done that. i don't know why we seem to be producing so many anti social buggers."

Let's keep this in proportion. Opportunities to cause mayhem are abundant, yet it hardly ever happens. Any loony could stroll into the crowded bag-drop area of any airport with a couple of gallons of petrol in a rucksack, and...well I won't go on. The fact is that, despite the opportunities, it very rarely happens. It's shocking when it does but I don't think there are quite as many antisocial buggers of such extreme intent as you seem to be suggesting.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:59 PM

There doesn't need to be "many".
They seem to be accomplishing their vile deeds quite effectively in ones and twos.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:23 PM

I see significant differences, Big Al. The motives involved are not the same. But in both cases there is a readiness to kill large numbers of innocent people. That is not a trivial similarity.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:33 PM

Before we helped kill Gaddafi and leave Libya in a shambles, he assured us he was fighting Jihadists not democrats.
Now the Jihadists roam free and their supporters in Britain kill our children.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:19 PM

One piece of moderately good news it that they have now found one of the 2 missing girls from Barra: in hospital undergoing treatment for serious injuries.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:55 PM

Meanwhile, the Christian angle on it:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/05/23/christian-extremist-the-manchester-victims-were-sluts-whores-and-sodomy-lovers/


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 May 17 - 07:24 PM

And it seem the bomber came from Salford:

I'm going to take a good sharp ax
Shining steel tempered in the fire
We'll chop you down like an old dead tree
Dirty old town, dirty old town


I never much liked that. Be careful what you wish for...


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:06 PM

The "Christian" equivalent of Isis there, Jack, and about as representative.
..........
I agree with you about that verse in Dirty Old Town.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:36 PM

Perhaps you misunderstand the sentiment behind Ewan's words. I think he was pleading for the regeneration of what was a complete shitheap. I was in Salford at the end of April, finding my great uncle's name on the WWI memorial in the cathedral. It was there, misspelled. Salford still isn't great, is it?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:42 PM

But the wrong kind of regeneration - the kind we've seen so much of in all our cities.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 17 - 02:54 AM

"Meanwhile, the Christian angle on it:

Stop pretending to be a thick twat, Jack. You know very well that he no more represents the values of Christians than the bomber represents those of Muslims.

You're using Daily Mail tactics. Have a bit of self-respect and knock it off.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 17 - 03:15 AM

An "Arab Springer"
It hasn't taken long for the extreme extremist on the forum to turn the discussion from a horrific crime into an attack on the Arab/Muslim people as a whole
Personally, I find little difference in Ake's attitude and that of the bomber - both bigoted, hate filled less-than-human beings.
Under the dictators and the archaic dynasties that Britain and the other Empires left in their wake when we pulled out, the Arab people as a whole continued to be exploited and oppressed - we assisted that oppression with our support, politically and economically, and we benefitted from it economically
We sold the despots weapons to keep the people down and we filled our shops with goods manufactured in appalling conditions for minuscule wages - we even waged war to keep our cars on the road.
The Arab Spring was a spontaneous reaction of the poor people of several nations to better their lot.
Failing to recognising or support this fact, our Governments at best, payed lip service and did nothing, at worst. rowed in on the side of the dictators, selling them weapons and describing genuine opposition as "terrorism".
Libya was typical - we described Qadaffi as a despot, yet sold him weapons and trained his son to take over - the two sides in the uprising were killing each other with weapons supplied by Britain.
The end result was ISIS, a small, unknown sect of nutters who grew into the monster it has become by feeding on the vacuum we created - ISIS is a creation of our indifference and self-interested attitude.
It is inevitable that poor people as a whole will attempt to improve their lot and better their conditions, just as it is inevitable that people like Ake will sneer at their efforts to do so.
The future of this planet hangs on our winning the hearts and minds of the poorer nations and assisting them develop, rather than continuing to profit from their poverty and backwardness.
In general, immigrants from these countries who have come to Britain to seek better lives, have become part of our society (when allowed to) and added to it.   
If we don't realise that the world is full of friends we haven't met yet, incidents like Manchester, London and 9/11 will become like buses - there'll be another one along in a minute.
Maggie T described the miners as 'The Enemy Within' - as far as I am concerned, that honour firmly lies with the home-grown venomous bigots in our midst
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 04:57 AM

Ignore them Jim. Don't let this hate fueled tragedy turn into another hate fueled thread.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 17 - 04:57 AM

Dave, there had been speculation here about the background of the killer.
I caught the announcement and passed on the information given, which was carried by all the media.

That does not make me a "sick puppy" and I think it would be better not to resort to abuse and name calling on this of all threads.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 May 17 - 05:31 AM

Three times as many children were killed in one Salafist terrorist bombing last month:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-civil-war-bomb-attack-children-dead-civilians-swap-bashar-al-assad-a7686241.html

but they were Shia Muslim kids, so guess how much media coverage they got in the UK.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 May 17 - 07:49 AM

Like Nigel Parsons and others, I was very heartened to see all the wonderful support and help given by so many Manchester folk from all backgrounds. Offers of accommodation from private houses and pubs, to open mosques giving out refreshments, free taxi rides for those stranded, off-duty doctors rushing to various hospitals to give aid and so on.

If nothing else, it's shown just how kind and well-disposed the majority of people are.
It's probably drawn everyone even closer together and united us all against the foe.

My husband has been to Manchester (sadly I never have) when his English wasn't very good, and people were delightful, giving directions and smiling. (He was visiting to Old Trafford) It sounds like a wonderful place.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 24 May 17 - 08:18 AM

"It sounds like a wonderful place."

It is, I love it because it's uncompromising, very creative, values it's place at the forefront of science (including palaeontology - we've just had a paper accepted for work I did with the team in Manchester) and is mad about football.

The city has music at it's very core, from a thriving Irish trad scene to excellent jazz clubs and new music venues plus a musical heritage that has been massively influential worldwide. It's spirit comes through in every note played, with attitude and individuality.

It's multicultural and always great to visit. It has it's problems but this is the place where rich footballers stopped their posh hotel development and gave the entire building over to the homeless during the cold winter months. It's a vibrant and wonderful place and after the provos destroyed the city centre it bounced back and became better than ever.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: BanjoRay
Date: 24 May 17 - 08:28 AM

The bombing seems to have taken over the news entirely, thus, I presume, giving the perpetrators' fellow conspirators the idea that the sick operation was totally successful in its production of terror. We deed somehow to disabuse them of that notion.....


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 17 - 08:44 AM

These people are just criminals. No more no less.

Uh no, they are terrorists, ideologically driven terrorists. All terrorists are criminals but not all criminals are terrorists. Time to remove your head from the sand and breathe the fresh air of reality.

The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.

― Albert Einstein


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 17 - 09:37 AM

"All terrorists are criminals but not all criminals are terrorists."
By the same token, because a terrorist happens to be a Muslim, it doesn't make all Muslims terrorists
All religions have provided their share of terrorists at one time or another - that Islam is in the limelight at present does not alter that fact one iota.
It really is time we stated referring to these sickos by what they are - "extremists" or "fundamentalists" - and not Muslims
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 May 17 - 09:44 AM

The bomber was British.

And "It is unlikely that somebody who commits suicide while mass-murdering teenage girls has any sort of ideology as their primary motivation" is nonsense, raving nutters aren't organized. Of course it's political. Not crazy - uncivilized. You do a disservice to the mentally ill by lumping them in with terrorists.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 17 - 10:30 AM

"By the same token, because a terrorist happens to be a Muslim, it doesn't make all Muslims terrorists"

Nobody is saying anything remotely like that.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 May 17 - 10:59 AM

To throw a new aspect into this conversation, I heard on the radio this morning that the dysfunctional Trump administration struck a blow to the investigation. It was someone here who released the name of the bomber before the UK investigators were ready (alerting confederates to go into hiding, etc.)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/23/trump-administration-manchester-bomber-name-leak

Salman Abedi was identified in media reports that attributed "US officials" as the source even as their British counterparts remained tight-lipped.

The disclosures renewed concerns over leaks from Donald Trump's administration two weeks after the US president revealed classified information, apparently from Israel, to Russia's foreign minister in a White House meeting. Critics warn that US allies may be less willing to share intelligence in the future.

Although UK journalists had Abedi's name, the UK government and Greater Manchester police declined to confirm it more than two hours after it appeared in the US press. Earlier in the day, the government indicated it might not release the name at all on Tuesday because the investigation was continuing.

On Monday night, a correspondent for America's ABC network tweeted: "Leading theory is Manchester was a suicide bomber, US senior law enforcement official briefed on the investigation tells @ABC."


Just because those idiots in the White House have a whole bunch of fancy resources doesn't mean they get to release news at-will.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 17 - 11:12 AM

My point is that we have made the situation a hundred times worse by our interventions in the Middle East and North Africa.
The "Arab Spring" was an absolute joke, only a half wit would believe that the Jihadists of Libya and Iraq were going to change into good little democrats overnight.
The removal of dictators with no realistic provision to fill the void is a kind of madness, ideological claptrap which we hear from the "liberal" left on every issue.

We are not all the same, these people are bloodthirsty lunatics, they don't want democracy, they don't want Christians worshiping Christ on their patch or any fucking patch......they want to dominate and use terror to achieve it.
Don't think it wont happen, come the first chemical or biological attack, even the poxy "liberals" will be forced to bite the bullet.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 17 - 11:13 AM

It gets worse, Acme. Way to go, Trump!


US officials leak more Manchester details hours after UK rebuke

Steady drip of details, which prompted censure from Amber Rudd, is hampering investigation into deadly attack.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/24/us-officials-leak-more-manchester-details-hours-after-uk-rebuke


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 17 - 11:26 AM

"Nobody is saying anything remotely like that."
That has been the thrust of all the arguments from day one
One of the reasons given for immigration control has always been the "danger of extremists establishing themselves within the Asian communities"
Those who went to assist te=he Syrian people against the State terrorist activities of Assad were immediate branded terrorists
""liberals" will be forced to bite the bullet."
Can you please keep your vicious Trumpist/Coullterist insults out of this discussion
Tis is not about The Arab Spring, nor is it about "liberals" - it is about the slaughter of young people by a faatic
Where the **** are the forum fairies when they are needed?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 May 17 - 11:46 AM

You're wrong, Akenaton. Totally. But no one is going to convince you of that, unless you start reading a better class of newspaper and watching more comprehensive news channels.

And if you can't figure out how to make immigrant communities in the UK feel welcome, able to contribute, able to practice their preferred religions in a way that dovetails with the dominant UK religion, you'll continue to let a few angry HOME GROWN terrorists fester. If you treat immigrants as threats instead of welcome neighbors, then YOU are part of the problem. The US also has the problem of inclusion to varying degrees in different parts of the country, though right now Trump is managing to scare people everywhere and making it much worse.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 17 - 12:13 PM

Home Grown? why do you think the family had to leave Libya?
The guy is a child murdering jihadist......No Quarter from me and MY kind.

I promise you Acme, YOU are wrong, CLINTON was wrong and you will come and admit it......though I pray you wont need to.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 17 - 12:17 PM

Having read down through the thread - nobody is blaming all Muslims. Those who have used the M-word?

theleveller
Senoufou
Dave Hanson
Backwoodsman
Jim Carroll


"It hasn't taken long for the extreme extremist on the forum to turn the discussion from a horrific crime into an attack on the Arab/Muslim people as a whole" - Jim Carroll - Total misrepresentation that could be construed by some as a downright lie.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 17 - 01:05 PM

"Those who have used the M-word?"
Ake is the only one who has attempted to place blame and his past record speaks for itself
Bonzo was the first to place the blame - three postings in.
Pretty sute he wan't referring to the Seventh Day Adventists (with his record)
And Ake continues his attack this time including Clinton
Must have got dispensation from the forum fairies
Why do these people have to use the hardly-cold bodies of children as a soapbox fro their own fanaticism?
"Those who have used the M-word?"
You mean Ake wasn't referring to Muslims!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 01:08 PM

I do promise this is my last post on this thread unless it improves. Please, please , please can we stop using this tragedy to score points. It is unbecoming of ALL concerned. I don't expect the mods to delete anything although I would welcome it, so can we be respectful and self policing?

Thanks

DtG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 May 17 - 01:37 PM

The Prime Ministeress said this, and how true:

"All acts of terrorism are cowardly attacks on innocent people, but this attack stands out for its appalling, sickening cowardice - deliberately targeting innocent, defenceless children and young people who should have been enjoying one of the most memorable nights of their lives...We struggle to comprehend the warped and twisted mind that sees a room packed with young children not as a scene to cherish, but as an opportunity for carnage"


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 17 - 03:16 PM

Thanks for posting that Bonzo - I could not agree more with what Theresa May said.

1: "Ake is the only one who has attempted to place blame"

If he did then he did not do so by blaming all Muslims Jom - If so then quote the post where he states that all Muslims are to blame. If you cannot do that then please STFU about it.

2: "Bonzo was the first to place the blame - three postings in."

Nope he sarcastically made an oblique reference to who he thought might be responsible without actually naming them - needless to say Bonzo's thoughts have been proved correct which should be vindication enough.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 17 - 03:19 PM

Sorry forgot to add:

At no time at all has Bonzo inferred or implied that all Muslims are to blame.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 17 - 07:36 PM

I also agree with what Mrs May said there. But there is something unsettling about the fact that the same lady who said that, only a few months ago told the House of Commons specifically that she is ready and willing to order a nuclear attack which would kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, which would of course include enormous numbers of children.

Perhaps this horrible atrocity in Manchester might make more of us realise what is involved in doing something like that, though on a vastly greater scale.
........

One striking and puzzling thing in this suicide bombing, which echoes what has happened in previous cases, is that the bomber made it so much easier for the police to have a start in finding possible confederates, by carrying identification. It is possible to imagine that a solitary killer might actually wish to be identified, as a way of making a statement of some kind, but for one acting under the direction of others, which it seems pretty evident is the case here, it is self-defeating.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 17 - 07:59 PM

she is ready and willing to order a nuclear attack which would kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians,

Yeah, Kevin, but the dead would all be Muslim unternenschen so what's the problem?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 17 - 08:03 PM

On tonight's news I heard two head teachers telling us about the lovely children who had been lost from their schools. Both were reading from notes. That made it so impersonal, as if they hadn't really known the kids at all and were relying on what someone else had told them. I found that to be thoroughly tasteless and rotten.

I thought the BBC report tonight which focused on the individual young people who were lost and the effects that those losses had inflicted on their families and friends was sensitive and lovely. I was talking to Mrs Steve about how these senseless losses are such routine events in Kabul and Baghdad, among others, lest we forget. To retain our sanity we really must focus on the smaller things in conflicts and that focus is, sadly, made easier when bad things happen close to home, to the same kind people as we are. I can't get my head round hundreds of thousands of far-distant people killed by nukes in Japan. But I can sharply and poignantly focus on the death of one eight-year-old little girl coming out of a pop concert in Manchester, six miles from where my mum and dad still live. War-mongers and terrorists rely on numbing our senses. The way to beat them is to to steadfastly maintain our humanity, look at what has happened on the scale that we do intimately understand and try to force the war-mongers and terrorists into thinking the same way. Each one of them has a mother.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 17 - 01:03 AM

"But there is something unsettling about the fact that the same lady who said that, only a few months ago told the House of Commons specifically that she is ready and willing to order a nuclear attack which would kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, which would of course include enormous numbers of children." - MGOH

Why unsettling Kevin? The USA, UK, Russia, China, France, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea all have nuclear weapons they claim as being defensive deterrents. There would of course be no point in any country having such a deterrent if the leadership of any of those country's stated that he or she would never use them. The deterrent effect of holding such weapons comes with fostering the undoubted belief in the minds, rational and thinking of any potential enemy that those weapons would be used.

In the case of the UK, our deterrent, on purpose is a second strike weapon. It has to be, to be effective, we live on a small island so land based "nukes" would be too vulnerable.

But seeing as you are unsettled Kev, be even more so now, because if you take at face value what Theresa May said, then realise this. The order to fire those missiles has already been given in the form of a sealed letter that is written by every single UK Prime Minister on taking office that outlines the circumstances under which the Commanding Officer of our SSBNs is authorised to launch his missiles, also hope and pray Kevin that BBC Radio 4 never goes "off air" for 24 hours by accident, because that is one of the "triggers" that would cause the Prime Minister's letter to be opened.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 17 - 02:46 AM

Radio 4 off air for 24hrs?.......So its not ALL bad news then Mr T?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 17 - 03:07 AM

Nice one Ake - like it.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 May 17 - 03:08 AM

"BBC Radio 4 never goes "off air" for 24 hours by accident"

Highly unlikely as I'm sure it could continue in one form or other even under the most exceptional circumstances.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 May 17 - 03:18 AM

I'm a bit "late to the party here"... , arguably an unfortunate choice of words, but I was struck my some comments previously made in this thread which seemed to suggest or argue that we and the media have been making disproportionate fuss over this incident because far more people are regularly killed or injured in other(particularly Muslim) countries in comparison to Manchester and other UK or other "Western" countries.

While this is true, I don't think we should be too hard on ourselves for wanting to mourn "our own". This is surely a natural reaction.
After all, we are generally far more affected by the loss of a loved one or friend than that of a stranger but that doesn't mean that we necessarily think of the stranger as a lesser person in any way.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 03:37 AM

'The way to beat them is to steadfastly maintain our humanity.."

Lovely post Steve. Agree with every word.

So much so, I'm even prepared to overlook the split infinitive. :)


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 03:53 AM

"Why unsettling Kevin? The USA, UK, Russia, China, France, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea all have nuclear weapons they claim as being defensive deterrents. There would of course be no point in any country having such a deterrent if the leadership of any of those country's stated that he or she would never use them. The deterrent effect of holding such weapons comes with fostering the undoubted belief in the minds, rational and thinking of any potential enemy that those weapons would be used."
Which totally negates any opposition to Iran, North Korea or any other state having these filthy killing machines - why should they be left defenceless to potential em]emis of their systems.
The only country that has ever approached actually using them on a nation is th United States - also the major culprit in interfering in the policies of other states by sending in invading armies - 15 years-worth of dropping bombs, carcinogenic chemicals and burning petrol on the people of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia
Isn't it long overdue that these filthy weapons were recognised for what they truly are - a threat to all mankind.
I used to believe that no sane nature would ever use them - buut now we have Trump and Isis - two sides of the same coin
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 25 May 17 - 07:14 AM

For fuck's sake, what is happening in the US with this leaking of information and data about the Manchester bomb? Not only was this against the wishes of the UK police and might have compromised the investigation, but showing images of bloodstained floors, detonators etc is so appallingly disrespectful to the families of those who died, that were mainly children.

Is this how low the US security services have sunk under Trump. They've become untrustworthy and it's baffling as to why this would happen. Seems they don't give a shit about the UK for sure. The UK has had to STOP sharing intelligence on this matter because they can't be trusted. Amazing.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 17 - 07:29 AM

How can this debacle possibly be Donal-John's fault? Why on earth would he pass it to the NYT which he quite rightly treats with derision? This is just another tactic in the disgraceful campaign to remove a democratically elected President by a whining pile of ideologically obsessed sore losers.

Not even the British would behave as childishly.
You do not yet seem to realise that electoral politics is a game and the winner must be a pragmatist......the art of the possible.

Subverting the democratic process because your feelings are hurt is the road to Hell.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 17 - 07:42 AM

"...I was struck my some comments previously made in this thread which seemed to suggest or argue that we and the media have been making disproportionate fuss over this incident because far more people are regularly killed or injured in other(particularly Muslim) countries in comparison..."

That isn't the sentiment I was wanting to express in my post. The opposite, in fact. Focusing on incidents close to home on human-scale intimate details is the best way for us to understand what happens in far-distant countries to people who are just like us, once we realise that they're just like us. It would also help us to increase our desire to try to prevent these things happening. A good start would be to end the brainless demonisation of Islam/Muslims/Palestinians/Arabs that's been going on for decades, usually by seriously misguided people in western countries who mistakenly think they own the moral high ground.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:08 AM

So the sugestionis is that Theresa May was lying when she said that she would be willing to kill hundreds of thousands in a nuclear strike?

Well, it could be true. It's all bluff, based on the hope that opponents believe our leaders are maniacs.

If a nuclear deterrent fails to deter an attack, there is no conceivable benefit in actually using the weapons. To actually launch the weapons would be completely without any value. It would also of course be an inconceivably evil thing to do, but perhaps that is not something that influences most people in positions of power.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:51 AM

Theresa May was responsible for the Manchester bombing - must be true - Ukip has just said so.
Is there an election in the offing in the UK, I wonder!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 17 - 09:32 AM

For fuck's sake, what is happening in the US with this leaking of information and data about the Manchester bomb?

That's what incompetent, ignorant slobs like Trump and his people do.
Be sure to send him a card of thanks.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 09:49 AM

From what I've seen and read today, there were many reasons to have had this family under surveillance. They all appear to have been involved in terrorist activities and 'training' for some time. Their friends and contacts were nearly all radicalised Muslims. Even ex-schoolmates and neighbours had their suspicions, and the Police had received information about them, yet nothing constructive was done.

It's unpleasant to be paranoid and report people one has doubts about, but in the present climate, it's essential.

How bitter the bereaved families must feel, knowing the bomber and his clan had been noticed quite a long time ago, and that this atrocity might have been prevented...


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 17 - 12:26 PM

The use of nuclear weapons is an admission that we give up, we surrender, we no longer respect life liberty justice or any such nonsense that interferes in our own personal capital formation.

alt. thinking;
Death is the deserved ultimate subjugation in a world economy where Muslims do not matter, er um , except for possibly radioactive oil.
We should aim our nukes at population centers and away from oil fields.   

"You know what? I am going to call them losers. Loosers! I am not going to call them monsters, they would like that, I'm going to keep that word for us".


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 May 17 - 03:23 AM

Steve Shaw said
"That isn't the sentiment I was wanting to express in my post."

Sorry, Steve. I wasn't actually referring to your post which I've now just read. I'm not disagreeing with what you have written and you have made a good point.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 17 - 04:36 AM

UK has now resumed sharing of information with US.

The killer had been reported for his beliefs and statements, but so have thousands of others. They can not all be kept under surveillance.
Even returned Jihadis from Syria are not. There are hundreds of them.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 May 17 - 04:39 AM

Feed them to the foxes!!


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: theleveller
Date: 26 May 17 - 04:40 AM

If May thinks that putting troops on the streets is reassuring, she's wrong. I find having soldiers on the streets doing the job of the police very worrying. Police firearms officers have different training to the army so a situation could arise that soldiers aren't competent to assess and that could result in innocent people being killed. This is the direct result of the Tories' police funding cuts - something they were warned about but chose to ignore.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 17 - 04:57 AM

This thread is about a suicide bomber killing innocent children and adults. This is really no place for displaying political ideology or scoring cheap points.
For some it would seem that to make a statement is more important than showing humanity and compassion.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 17 - 07:41 AM

I agree with theleveller. Armed troops have no place on our streets. More and more as time has gone on we've come to accept a limited presence of armed police officers on our streets, secure in the knowledge that they are not just trained marksmen but are also trained defenders of public order. The fact that even such highly-trained police officers can occasionally make tragic mistakes should be a warning to us that armed troops with far less of the right kind of training are simply unacceptable.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 17 - 08:37 AM

Same thing in New York City - seeing armed soldiers in subway stations is disconcerting. It's one thing to take veterans after they leave the military and train them to be police - I've read a number of accounts that you then have the best of both worlds as far as assessment and reactions, but military untrained to police domestic civilians - no. It's troubling.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Paul Reade
Date: 26 May 17 - 09:06 AM

It's worth reading Simon Jenkins' piece in yesterday's Guardian "... the idea that tanks, troops and helicopters can deter a suicide bomber in a crowded space is ridiculous. The only people it deters are foreign tourists."


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: theleveller
Date: 26 May 17 - 10:08 AM

"It's one thing to take veterans after they leave the military and train them to be police"

In the UK it's unusual for ex-military to be selected as firearms officers because they have been trained to have a different mindset and priorities.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 26 May 17 - 12:07 PM

Police Officer Says He Was Fired for Not Shooting. Now He's Suing is a story that explains what might go through the heads of officers without combat experience, and more. Interesting read.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: theleveller
Date: 26 May 17 - 12:20 PM

Vashta, thankfully things are very different in the UK.The police now use tasers more and more, which isn't a weapon the military are trained in.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 May 17 - 12:55 PM

Britain could profit from the U.S.'s universally negative results of the increasing militarization of the police force here over the last decade. Very bad news.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 May 17 - 01:01 PM

Here in UK, if an officer uses a taser on an individual, he has to fill in a form afterwards in which all the details of the incident are recorded. (A CED Evaluation Form) It's all monitored, to prevent the Police firing tasers all over the place. They aren't used lightly.

I don't really see how any number of armed Police/military can do much against a lone suicide bomber walking along a street or entering a building, looking perfectly normal. Unless one has Intelligence tracking him/her, one wouldn't know the individual was wired-up until the terrible moment when it was detonated, in which event it would be too late.
I read this morning that many concerts due to take place this summer are stipulating no bags except very tiny handbags will be allowed. And to expect huge delays and queues checking into the venues. Unless they frisk everyone thoroughly though, I can't see how it would completely ensure safety.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 17 - 05:51 AM

It would really hit the fan if a young squaddie shot someone.
Not likely though because they are not patrolling the streets as in France.
Leveller and Steve got that wrong.

They are replacing armed police stuck in static guard positions.
It is those released armed officers out patrolling, not troops.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 27 May 17 - 07:21 AM

"They are replacing armed police stuck in static guard positions."

Yep, what happens when a government cuts police numbers by 20,000. The tories have really fucked this up; it's not their fault of course but the country is more vulnerable because of their idiot austerity.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 17 - 09:02 AM

bollocks! everything is their fault....its been downhill ever since the execution of Anne Boleyn...bloody tories!


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 17 - 11:28 AM

It's pretty obvious that neither armed police nor armed troops are any protection against a suicide bomber ready to blow himself up in a crowd. But there are some terrorist activities where they could be relevant - someone with a knife, like the one at Westminster a few weeks ago, or a gun attack, like the one in Mumbai, or on the Tunisia beach.

But the main purpose is more one of PR - Public Reassurance combined with Public Relations.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: theleveller
Date: 27 May 17 - 11:32 AM

"They are replacing armed police stuck in static guard positions.
It is those released armed officers out patrolling, not troops."

I'm not sure that's the case across the country. I'll ask my son - both he and his partner are police firearms training officers and are sometimes called on to be part of the armed response unit. Even so, I think you're nit-picking.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 May 17 - 11:46 AM

Oh Leveller, do you not realise that if KOAH (also known as the professor) says it is the case it remains so, despite all evidence to the contrary.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 17 - 07:40 PM

Well you can hide a knife down your pants until the very last minute. You can walk into a crowded airport carrying several gallons of petrol. Armed troops are useless against threats of that kind. I find the presence of police officers on the streets very comforting. And a good deal of great work is being done in unravelling the network that may have been behind this week's tragedy. Who knows. Capturing and punishing perpetrators has always been the way to go.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 02:28 AM

'Capturing and punishing perpetrators has always been the way to go.'

i know what you mean but you inevitably keep thinking....Birmingham Six, Guildford Four....and its not football results!

lets hope we've improved our detection techniques in the intervening years.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 03:42 AM

"Capturing and punishing perpetrators has always been the way to go"
No really Steve
The "way to go" is to find the causes of it and work out if, as a nation, our own behavior hasn't been and still is a part of it.
Isis is a monster of our own creation, we created the vacuum that nurtured it and the hatred of all the faithful of the religion it claims to be acting on behalf of continues to feed it and create bigger and more widespread vacuums.
Al is right about the Birmingham Six - what a coup for the extremists it would have been if the authorities had strung them up!
Fanatics like Isis thrive on martyrdom
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:23 AM

"Capturing and punishing perpetrators has always been the way to go"
No really Steve
The "way to go" is to find the causes of it and work out if, as a nation, our own behavior hasn't been and still is a part of it.


It isn't either/or, and I doubt if many people think it is. The bit about whether our behaviour is part of it is difficult, though. *I* believe it is, certainly, but there are those who feel even considering that for a moment is a sign of weakness. That's bad when it is 'our side' saying it makes us look weak, but it is worse when 'their side' sees us as looking weakened. On the other hand the bravado-stance that it is nothing to with us is either deluded or unthinking. I don't envy anyone deciding what the 'public face' of this needs to be.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:23 AM

But surely if perpetrators are captured, they must be punished? (And I don't mean the Death Penalty) What's the alternative? Sitting them down over a nice up of tea and having a little chat about why they're so cross with us?

On a wider front, the whole situation does need looking at in depth. Alienated groups can become dangerous (as seen) and it is a good idea to unpick the chain of events which led to this. But from what I've read about IS, they aren't in any way prepared to consider reconciliation or talks. And individuals who plot atrocities, and those with bomb-factories in their houses MUST be brought to justice and punished.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:41 AM

I do not accept that our foreign policy is a factor.
They just hate us for our values.
What did Belgium ever do abroad to make them a target?
Sweden, Norway, Kenya and Nigeria have all suffered attacks.

This comes from the rise of radical Islam, not us.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 05:18 AM

"They just hate us for our values."
And that is the stupidly blinkered view that will continue to fill body bags.
The history of our attitude to the poorer nation of the world is one of exploitation and predatory greed - and one of hating people for their values and attempting to "civilise" them - the end of the Empires have not changed that one iota
Dealing with Isis is short termism - in needs to be tackled but so does our own exploitive and racist policies
We all have to take responsibility for what is happening otherwise it will continue to happen.
"What did Belgium ever do abroad to make them a target?"
The world we have helped create has been divided into "them and us" sections - the Arab Spring might have helped narrow the gap but it was "us" who dropped that ball and continued to be part of the exploitation of "them"
"But surely if perpetrators are captured, they must be punished? "
Of course they must Sen, that's a domestic duty for all countries to tackle, but that punishment or blame must never be extended to all Muslims as it is being at present.
I agree with DMcG to a point but "weakness" smacks a little too much of the Thatcherist cure-all.
We have to sort out the legacies of our own history before we will put things right
I go along totally with Corbyn on this one
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 17 - 06:46 AM

blame must never be extended to all Muslims as it is being at present.

It is not. Making up "facts" is not helpful.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 06:47 AM

wouldn't be too sure JIm, about them not hating us.
And I wouldn't be too sure Keith that its merely Islam.

i remember talking one day to Dutch guy who had been living in the south of Spain for years.

He said,' I suppose you realise they hate our guts. All us north Europeans. Not as much as the Americans, THey loathe the Americans, they think they're really decadent'
i said, i suppose that's the Moorish influence...
He said, Who the hell knows, but its definitely the Andalusian point of view....'

years later my Dad emigrated in his retirement to Spain, and i got to know the Costa Blanca part pretty well. To subsidise my infrequent visits I used to gig the bars in Calpe or on the strip in Benidorm. One bar owner told me the council have to have a secret squad of white washers out every morning in Benidorm to paint over some of the anti-English graffitti.

we are not universally loved - neither is our culture universally respected.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 07:08 AM

"It is not. Making up "facts" is not helpful."
Nether is avoiding facts
These crimes have been attributed by Muslims - they have been given (by you and others) as a reason for limiting immigrants and not accepting refugees
They have been trumpeted from the soapboxes by Ukip while you have stood in the sidelines claiming they are not racist
I've no intention of getting involved in one of your mindless black holes Keith
One of the greatest examples of the West's double standards towards nations the give succour to extremism for the purposes of self interest came with his clowningly hypocritical performance in Saudi Arabia
One of the soapboxes of his election campaign was an attack on Muslims and his promise to ban them from entry into The United States
He is now arse-licking the Saudi regime in the same way Cameron dis while the despots were beating the shit out of a journalist.   
When the Arab people were demanding better conditions and more freedom Britain's contribution was to open an arms fair to sell the leaders of the despotic nations more weapons and equipment to keep them under subjugation - Assad was a beneficiary of the sales of riot control equipment such as armoured cars and tear gas.
Is it really any wonder that fanatics gaing a toe-hold thanks to these policies?
If we are going to stop fanaticism, we have to rob it of its lifeblood by winning the hearts of ordinary Muslim people - not by lumping them in with the nutters.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 17 - 07:51 AM

they have been given (by you and others) as a reason for limiting immigrants and not accepting refugees

More made up stuff Jim.
Not helpful.

- not by lumping them (ordinary Muslim people) in with the nutters.

No-one is doing that. Why claim it?

What has Belgium, Denmark or Sweden done to deserve attack apart from embracing democracy, freedom and tolerance?

That is what they are attacking.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 07:57 AM

Those suffering from white guilt who see the west as the cause of all the world's ills would do well in this case to examine the history of the Muslim Brotherhood which begins in 1928. ISIS, Taliban, al-Qaeda, al-Shabaab, Hizb ut-Tahrir and the dozens other terrorist groups are all current proponents of the Brotherhood's stated goal which is: to instill the Quran and the Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state". Its mottos include "Believers are but Brothers", "Islam is the Solution", and "Allah is our objective; the Qur'an is the Constitution; the Prophet is our leader; jihad is our way; death for the sake of Allah is our wish" - Wikipedia


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 08:26 AM

More denials from two of our leading Ismophobes
Now there's a surprise!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 08:35 AM

I fear no Ismos, Jew hater.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 08:57 AM

" Jew hater."
Point made perfectly, I think
Is there an adujudicator in the house?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 09:01 AM

Lol!


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 09:16 AM

A last word to these two individuals before this ahrangue ruins the thread
I have no problem with abybody, myself included, being called a "Jew Hater" if there is evidence to back that up - the same goes for Islamophobe, racist.... or whatever.
If Bobad would like to provide evidence of his accusation, not only will I not only fuulfil my promise of a generous donation to the charity of his choice, but will apologise and resign from this forum
I am more than happy to provide evidence of my accusation - I have in the past and will do again if =necessary
I suggest Bobad should either apologise and withdraw his accusation or resign from this forum
Can'r say fairer than that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 May 17 - 09:32 AM

bobad, that's disgraceful. Calling someone a Jew hater on Mudcat is totally unacceptable. And what was the 'LOL' in your next post? It isn't funny at all.
You're dragging this interesting discussion down to the level of a pub brawl.
Stop it please.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 09:41 AM

I was just responding in kind to Carroll's slur against me, do you think it's alright for him to call me an Ismophobe [sic]?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 09:52 AM

I am more than happy to provide evidence of my accusation

Please do.

As for providing evidence for my accusation, that has been done on many occasions but your slippery substitution of your own self exonerating definition of anti-Semitism for the widely accepted definition renders your protestations laughable.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 10:00 AM

well this 'muslim brotherhood' do seem to have rattled your cage Bob?

is it just in wikipedia - cos its not a totally reliable source.
or do you know someone who goes round saying such things?
ask yourself - have i ever met anyone like that?
outside of a baddy in arnold schwarznegger movie - can you imagine anyone ever saying that?

if it sounds like bollocks - it possibly is.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 17 - 10:02 AM

Will you just fucking shut up?!


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 10:14 AM

Sorry Al but I don't get your point at all. I would suggest you do some research on the Brotherhood and their aims or maybe you don't believe in the separation of church and state.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 17 - 10:28 AM

Not aimed at Big Al.
Aimed at bobad the troll and Jim the troll-(wossword for somebody who enjoys being "done" by trolls continually?)

Since I'm not inclined to close crapulent threads or delete tons of messages (people need to be able to see who people area), I'll content myself with being an asshole, which I've been told I'm somewhat good at.

People's children were killed. People are suffering real pain. And all you lot can think about is "Oh look - another chance to fight about Muslims and go after this individual and make myself look smart." You don't look smart. You don't look kind. You look like stupid, heartless, selfish, website trashers.

Go here, flame warriors, you'll like the atmosphere.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 10:59 AM

"Please do."
have done a dozen times Bobad - most spectacularly in you quotes dredged from some of the most right wing of sites and going back to the as far as the 6th century claiming to prove the inbuilt extremist nature of the Muslim religion - Keith's "implant" theory are to well known to mention
"Will you just fucking shut up?!"
Very "moderate"
It is my opinion that events like Manchester are perpetrated by Islamic fanatics, that fanaticism is persistently fed by the disillusionment of generations of young people who have witnessed their parents being persecuted and humiliated by racism, hatred and mistrust based on the Islamophobia that is all to often displayed during these arguments
I should have the right to state than belief as often as I find necessary
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 11:21 AM

the inbuilt extremist nature of the Muslim religion

Most religions have inbuilt extremism to some degree. To be critical of any religion does not equate to hatred of those who believe in it. Religions are but a collection of ideas and as such are open to questioning, scrutiny and criticism, only a fanatic believer would deny that.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:08 PM

"Most religions have inbuilt extremism to some degree. "
Not pages and pages of it in relation to present events
To relate an religion directly to those event is "phobic" (take your pick on the prefix)
That's what you did
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:29 PM

To relate an religion directly to those event is "phobic"

Well then that makes the perpetrators "selfphobes".


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:30 PM

No, it isn't either-or, as DMcG rightly said. The work of the police and intelligence agencies in cracking these terrorist rings is crucial and I believe that what we've seen them doing this week has been impressive, though we need to be a lot more pre-emptive. I'm never keen on the "we bring these things on ourselves" attitude. There is no mitigation possible for what happened in Manchester or for any other atrocity that hurts ordinary civilians going about their lives. But what's all this about "values," Keith? What values were we exhibiting when we napalmed Vietnam? When we ousted a democratic government in Chile in favour of a murderous dictator? When we funded the contras? When we do big business with a regime that represses women and beheads hundreds of people in public every year? When we propped up vicious military regimes in pre-Castro Cuba and in Portugal, Spain and Egypt? When we give a free pass to a country that steals land from a minority who get repressed and discriminated against into the bargain? When we invaded Iraq on a false pretext? Does all that represent your "values," Keith? It doesn't represent mine.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:37 PM

Jim Carroll: To relate an religion directly to those event is "phobic" (take your pick on the prefix)

Jim Carroll: It is my opinion that events like Manchester are perpetrated by Islamic fanatics


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:38 PM

"I'll content myself with being an asshole, which I've been told I'm somewhat good at."

Not by me you weren't. I tried to strike a deal with you: you don't call me paranoid and I don't call you an arsehole. I've yet to call you one, let alone tell you how good you are at being one. Happy to clear that up.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 01:23 PM

"t is my opinion that events like Manchester are perpetrated by Islamic fanatics"
"Fanatics" is the operative word there - that they claim to be acting in the name of Islam is immaterial - it could have been and in the past has been Christian of Jewish or Buddhist fanatics
Do not twist my meaning
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 01:38 PM

with respect Bobad - i think you need to do less 'research' about the 'muslim brotherhood', and maybe think of all the shopkeepers, doctors, nurses, shop assistants, teachers, waiters in restaurants, policemen and god knows what else who serve you and are polite and friendly to you.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 17 - 02:26 PM

"and maybe think of all the shopkeepers, doctors, nurses,....."
Wish I'd said that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 02:31 PM

Al, I think you are either misunderstanding or misinterpreting my post. I am arguing the point that attributes the rise of ISIS to the actions of the "west". I place the historic foundation of the ideology of the terrorist groups I listed and many more like them to that of Hassan al-Banna founder of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1928. Why you are trying to make a linkage with me and ordinary Muslims today has me completely baffled.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 28 May 17 - 03:10 PM

The foundation of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the rise of al-Banna, were very much linked to western actions in the middle east, specifically British rule in Egypt. Not sure what point you are trying to make bobad.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:30 PM

"Fanatics" is the operative word there

As if I have ever said or implied otherwise.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 17 - 06:39 PM

with respect Bobad

Respect? Fer chrissakes WHY with this serial arsehole?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 17 - 11:24 PM

The point is Bobad.
The history of 1928 is all very well in its way.
Indeed, I expect the political affiliation that Jim and I feel to the Labour Party and the left generally could probably be traced back to the general Strike in 1926, even further perhaps.
No doubt, when Harold got one in the eye at the Battle of Hastings - our ancestors were there in the throng, going 'fuck this for a game of soldiers'.

However these kids sticking bombs in their shoes, up their bums, running away to join Jihadi John, etc. have fuck all to do with 1928. They are products of our society. they are our fuck-ups. they are disaffected youths from Derby, Leeds, Birmingham, Manchester.

We can't sort it out without closer links with the indigenous Muslim community. A meeting of minds. A collision course between the two cultures is neither desirable or inevitable...its just kids who don't fit in, and see something they think will confer significance on their lives, when society is telling them they have none.

1928 for Gawdsake....ask yourself. does your average young person know what happened yesterday on the News?   And that's what you're dealing with. Not 1928.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 17 - 01:56 AM

"They are products of our society.... We can't sort it out without closer links with the indigenous Muslim community. A meeting of minds. A collision course between the two cultures is neither desirable or inevitable...its just kids who don't fit in, and see something they think will confer significance on their lives, when society is telling them they have none."
The problem in a nutshell.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 17 - 03:43 AM

Steve,
But what's all this about "values," Keith?

Western liberal values are abhorred by these fanatics.
They do not believe in democracy or the tolerance of unbelievers, gay people and much else.
They would not allow concerts like the one attacked last week.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Thompson
Date: 29 May 17 - 04:31 AM

There are horrible fanatics in every society, ready to kill. And there are people who pick up on the militarised values of societies and become convinced that it's heroic to kill, and that it's the only way to free people from a dictatorship or an invasion.

A personal note: I was on a plane from Paris the day after Manchester, and my boarding gate was next to the gate for a plane to Saudi Arabia. The people taking that plane were the most pale, silent and subdued group I've ever seen board a plane. One girl in jilbab and hijab was white in the face and almost fainted on her way out the boarding gate. A plump, middle-aged woman in a flowered scarf who reminded me of everyone's gran in 1950s Ireland sat hunched with her head bowed.

Manchester was an atrocity. Someone so full of hate that his favoured target is a concert for thousands of little girls has lost all reason. But not all Muslims are bombers.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 17 - 04:58 AM

Steve,
I gave you a litany of western foreign policy interventions in which those western liberal values of yours were presumably at play, Keith. Can't say I'm surprised you ignored them.

You did Steve. Do you think Vietnam formed any part of the motivation of the killers? We did not even participate in it!

Or Chile? Or any of those other places on your list?
I do not, and the fanatics do not claim them as grievances either.

The fanatics say they hate us for our tolerance of things they hate and our belief in democracy.
Not Vietnam!


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 17 - 05:56 AM

Your western liberal values were at play in all those situations. I want to know what values they hate us for. I want to know if they hate us for the values we exhibited in the situations I mentioned. I don't see anything particularly "liberal" in the values that support Israel's regime in its repression of Gaza, in backing terrorists in Nicaragua, in the ousting of democratic governments in favour of dictators, in setting fire to children in villages and in the propping up of vicious despots. And I am not saying that there is a provable connection between foreign policy and terrorism. But I am saying, without justifying it in the slightest way, that foreign policy may engender bitter feelings and that fanatics will use those feelings as an excuse to justify attacks on western countries. By the way, I don't think it's a tit-for-tat. Belgium may not have been upfront in the aggression shown by the west, but that is not the point. The terrorists' apparently random attacks are intended to provoke fear and insecurity in the west in general. They are not pinpoint revenge attacks.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:19 AM

"Does anyone?
ou've been given the first essential step Keith - winning hearts and minds" ( a far cry from descibing them as a community of potential perverts who have to resist their cultural implant to stop them from raping children
Such attitudes set the fuses to these suicide bombs
THe values you trumpet so persistently about are really not much to write home about
A survey suggested that a third of the British population hold and have expressed racist views - not many hearts and minds in hat one
Britain may not have been part of teh Vietnam atrocities but our leaders sat like nodding dogs and watched for fourteen years while the Yanks poured burning petrol on Vietnamese peasants
Not a "value" I'd be happy to sweater on my Tee-shirt
Our glorious leader, speaking on our behalf presumably, accused those trying to brin mass-murderer to trial for his slaughter of young people as "running a police state" and announced that he was her kind of democrat
Very praiseworthy
Nobody is suggesting this massacre wasn't ideologically driven nd it's not helpful to suggest somebody is - it is the ideology of fanatics - every religion has them to one degree or another.
Stop twisting peoples' words
Iead this morning that an Anerican Christian went berserk of a train, cut the throats of two passengers and stabbed another
Elswehere, a Christian shot six people and said he hoped God would take him
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:51 AM

you've forgotten Keith - thing were just as unstable in the past.

in the '60's the sea green incorruptibles were waving red books and shouting, 'hey! hey! LBJ! How many kids did you kill today?' we scared the shit out of our parents.

luckilly we didn't have access to weapons. in germany they had baader meinhoff, in America they had the weathermen, the simbianese liberation army. Stokely Carmichael, George Jackson, Angela Davis, Soledad Brother.....

in the 70's the IRA looked just as intractable> And the threat is still there...

in a way you can't have honest equal negotiation with people who are prepared to go that far.

but in the end, its the Mo Mowlams and John Majors and Bill Clintons- the ones who are willing to try for that who get stuff sorted out and civilisation back on track. ...not the Thatcher No Surrender merchants.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:14 AM

I think it's a complex problem that needs a complex solution.

Government Intelligence should be increased so that more plots could be unearthed before disasters happen.

Known terrorist plotters and offenders in our country should be arrested and imprisoned.

Radicalised young people should be approached with an intent to listen and try to understand their mindset. Young men who feel isolated and unaccepted should be reassured and encouraged.

Politically we should keep our noses out of regimes and governments which are none of our business.

Individually we should try not to become racist or condemn whole sections of our population for the actions of a few. We should see all human beings as of value.

We should all try to hold on tightly to the spirit of tolerance, acceptance and fellow-feeling which has been a characteristic of many ordinary folk in our country. (As shown in Manchester by the mutual support and friendship of many religious groups and races)


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:40 AM

So... I had two friends with daughters there, one a close friend that I saw for the first time yesterday and got to discuss the events with him. The details are pretty awful and it was a frightening, confusing situation for the people involved and thankfully everyone was OK physically, although they saw things no child should ever see and it must have been terrible.

Some of the people on this thread should take a long, hard look at how they conduct themselves in discussions like this. You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about in this case.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 17 - 11:25 AM

Agreed, Stu gets the last word. The thread has strayed way off topic.

I had a query about leaving this open - okay, but Jim and Keith, you have to take it outside somewhere else. You hijack threads with your same old nonsense.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:24 PM

Good call in more ways than one, Acme.

I know it's contentious, but I think a discussion of the effects of western foreign policy on the breeding of terrorism is germane. I note that Jeremy Corbyn was attacked for appearing to suggest a link. He parried the blow pretty well. I'm not happy with the "told you so, we had it coming" brigade. If somebody blows innocent people to kingdom come, they are mass murderers who are one hundred percent responsible for their actions. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a debate to be had. This world is filled with human beings capable of love but also capable of resentment at mistreatment. It would be stupid to suggest that that can't spill over into action. Bad action, unjustified action, but action. It would also be stupid to suggest that the west has the monopoly on justice and fair play. I gave Keith a number of instances of how the west undermines democracy and props up vicious dictators. The examples are legion, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 17 - 06:57 PM

to be honest i don't know what triggered the closedown. i agree theres nothing we can say that makes it better.

i suppose people grieve in their own way. and i'm sorry if what we said upset you Stu. i'm sure none of us would have wanted to do that.

i suppose what it is, we all look for explanations in the face of something horrible like this.

of course there are none. so the most familiar record starts playing and the same old nonsense comes out of our mouths - we're old men and its how we react to everything.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 17 - 07:51 PM

I don't agree with you and I don't agree with Stu when he accuses us of not knowing what we're talking about. The debate can't be restricted just to those directly affected, as much as their input is valuable. "Old men" (and old women) have a lifetime of experience behind them. True, in some people's cases nothing seems to have stuck. But a long lifetime's accumulated experience of the vicissitudes of life can lend a degree of objectivity, perspective and philosophy. 'Twas ever thus, and it can occasionally help to temper the ardour of passionate youth. As long as we have our antennae fine-tuned to the "things weren't like this in my day" brigade...


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 17 - 08:02 PM

i dunno, i don't feel i've got anything to tell the world. i suddenly feel old and useless.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 17 - 09:34 PM

You're not useless to me, Al!

(Jaysus, I bet that makes you feel good...)


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 17 - 02:42 AM

The problem Al, is that our lives and how we live them are almost completely determined by the media....we are told what to think by teams from a social and political elite.....the world is changing into some sort of Disneyland/Hammer Horror amalgamation.

I agree about our crass foreign policy commitments, which are part of media/elite game, but there is no doubt Keith is correct that the Jihadists and many of the mainstream Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa see Western values as debauched and a creeping threat to their way of life.

We need a proper serious and HONEST debate on all issues, before we float off into "Neverland"


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 17 - 03:46 AM

"but Jim and Keith, you have to take it outside somewhere else. You hijack threads with your same old nonsense."
I agree that our arguments get out of hand (have decided to wash my hands of Keith, but the fact that he posts as persistently as he does makes that difficult)
Will try to do better in the future - I really don't enjoy these set-tos
I resent bitterly having my arguments described as "the same old nonsense"
I believe these discussions need to be more than deserved laments for the dead and have to be dealt with in depth if they are going to have any value.
As far as I am concerned, they are the work of fanatics whose religion-driven rationale (a contradiction in terms?) it totally beyond me, but I also believe that the root cause of the support they are getting lies much closer to home and the behaviour of our politicians and financial bodies play a large part in what is happening.
Brushing that fact under the carpet is only going to lead to more bloodshed and more disaffection.
Our politicians speak on our behalf so we become the targets - they have their R.S.Gs to scurry into if the worst comes to the worst; we don't.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 17 - 03:57 AM

Ake, I think part of the problem is that many mainstream Muslims, encouraged by our media and by their less principled leaders, find it difficult to distinguish between Western values and the actions of Western governments.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 17 - 04:42 AM

Blqaming the media is a disturbing cop-out which, I believe emanates from what is happening in the U.S.
Any dictator worth his or her salt wil not try to ban the media but will seek to control it - that is what Trump's campaign is about at present.
Our terrorirst problem is not tehe fault of what the papers say but the fact that the bulk of our national press is at the disposal of the establishment
That is what needs changing and until it does, we need to learn to read between the lines
Without a (even partially free) national press we would have to rely totally on officially government statements - god help us all.
Don't let the politicians off the hook by blaming Murdoch - that's tantamount to kicking the milkman's horse when you find his master in bed with your wife (to lapse into an old sexist joke)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:13 AM

nonsense is the only thing you can talk about this incident.
it makes no sense.

the idea that any political advantage; moral victory; act of closure or revenge; waging of holy war - could be achieved by the slaughter of innocents....

i don't get it.
how can it have significance...other than mindless brutality.
its just the same kind of angst behind Columbine, Hungerford, Dunblane.

The perpetrator, a member of our society - may have thought he had a political agenda, but he was just sick.

To interpret it as a response to the activities of our soldiers carrying out our foreign policy is to invest it with a dignity it has no proper claim to.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:36 AM

"I don't agree with Stu when he accuses us of not knowing what we're talking about."

Of course you don't. But you don't.


I saw my mum last night, and her friend's granddaughter had to walk thought the foyer too, and the girl she hasn't slept since. Once again, the details are horrific.

This thread was originally about the horror of the act itself and our standing together with the victims, most of which were kids. As usual these threads become bickering pits for people with entrenched opinions that will never change. Look at this thread. No-one is listening to each other.

I'm not sorry of being upset, this is close to home and people I know personally and care for have been affected. I'm not judging anyone here, but you could take it elsewhere, because this crap isn't about the bomb or it's victims. Too much to hope for on Mudcat these days.


"i dunno, i don't feel i've got anything to tell the world. i suddenly feel old and useless."

Yep, me too Al. None of us know shit.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:39 AM

I am happy to return to the thread given the new guidelines.

Al has a very good point

how can it have significance...other than mindless brutality.
its just the same kind of angst behind Columbine, Hungerford, Dunblane.


It is the same. As I said early on, these people are criminals, even if they see themselves as something else and it is as criminals they should be treated. There is no single line of blame nor is there one single solution.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 17 - 06:01 AM

The difference is that this killer was part of a network who shared his motivation.
If only he was a lone sicko.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 17 - 06:06 AM

It doesn't matter to those killed or to those who are grieving what type of criminal they are.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 17 - 06:10 AM

No it does not, but I would want to know who did it and why.
I think that we all want to know that.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 17 - 06:23 AM

Glad we are agreed then. Hopefully the thread will not be derailed again.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 17 - 07:04 AM

You were not there in person yourself either, Stu. By your own reckoning that makes you just as unqualified to tell us who gets it or who doesn't as the rest of us.

Anyone who can do what Abedi did is insane, a sicko. Lone in the sense that he did it alone. But we don't know whether he acted alone. Quite likely not. If the frequency of fatal accidents on our roads increases, we don't shrug and just say that accidents are isolated incidents caused by lone bad drivers. We try to find out what's going on and act accordingly, by making cars safer, by better driver training, lower speed limits maybe, stricter laws on using mobile phones etc. There's a worrying-high rate of suicides among young men. We try to find out why and face up to the issues. We need to know why we get terrorist incidents on our streets. Giving up by declaring that it's just lone sickos doesn't cut it. There's work to be done and a discussion to be had, otherwise we are doomed always to react and never to preempt. Neither does claiming that the only people who "get it" are the people who were there.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 17 - 09:55 AM

well, we don't know for certain he was part of a network.

its only what the cops have said, and frankly they're chasing round like blue arsed flies trying to cover themselves.

all these arrests - its very reminiscent of 'the troubles'.....or am I the only person who feels a twinge of extreme caution.

he looks more like a nutcase loser to me than an urban guerilla.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jeri
Date: 30 May 17 - 10:34 AM

I think if the Columbine shootings happened today, or many other mass murders by disgruntled people trying to get noticed, they'd claim they were part of that network. The "network" would happily accept their claimed loyalty, as it furthered their goal of promoting hatred and provoking war. And the "other side" who also wanted war, would happily buy their lies and post shit about it in forums around the world. Nothing is as much fun as hate, right? Tools.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: bobad
Date: 30 May 17 - 10:35 AM

If he is simply a "nut case loser" then, according to the survey documented in this VIDEO, there are at least a hundred thousand more "nut case losers" in your country that sympathize with his action.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 17 - 11:09 AM

"You were not there in person yourself either, Stu. By your own reckoning that makes you just as unqualified to tell us who gets it or who doesn't as the rest of us."

Yeah, you're right. But I've talked to people directly involved, not got my information from the media. I don't say this gives me any special insight, just that this thread has become the usual echo chamber of bullshit discussing stuff that would be better on a thread of it's own.

How are Manchester and surrounds coping? As it always does, with no bullshit and lots of spirit.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 May 17 - 11:49 AM

That vid won't play here in England bobad , but I assume the channel 4 documentary finds evidence of a lot of adherents of a certain religion that sympathise with the atrocity. That is truly alarming if it's reliable reporting. But it is evidently not universal as is evident from the fact that all sorts of people , including the religion in question, we're offering help following the atrocity


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 17 - 11:52 AM

Our Security Services tell us that they know of 20 000 in UK who are sympathetic to the terrorists. Abedi was one of those, not even one of the further 3000 considered to pose a high risk of carrying out an act of terror.
We also have hundeds of actual ISIS fighters who have returned here from Syria, so we are kidding ourselves if we pretend that this is just some random "nutcase loser."

Guardian, "Around 850 British fighters have joined Isis or other jihadi groups such al-Nusra Front and in some cases the war against the regime of the Syrian leader, Bashar al-Assad. It is believed around half of these fighters have returned to the UK and around 200 have died. "
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/26/isis-exodus-foreign-fighters-caliphate-crumbles

Independent, "In the wake of the Manchester suicide bombing it emerged that British authorities were grappling with 500 investigations into 3,000 individuals.
On Friday security sources confirmed a further 20,000 individuals were said to have been considered "subjects of interest" in the past,"
(Abedi one of them)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/security-mi5-23000-subjects-interest-counter-terrorism-manchester-abedi-police-a7758671.html


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:09 PM

I take your point about the police, Al, and suspect that most or all of those arrested will be released without charge. However, assembling the materials to make a suicide bomb is hard. That is a point in favour of his being part of a ring, something the police and security services have emphasised. If he is, we need to know.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with our talking about this. It's a very human thing to talk about distressing things that happen, just like it's very human to talk about jolly things. This thread is the appropriate place to talk about it. If you disagree, don't read it. If someone is displaying bad taste we can say so, but that's a different thing.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:17 PM

Abedi had dropped out of University. While there, he had joined no societies neither involved himself with any student activities.
He apparently went out drinking (!) and had small convictions for theft, minor assault and receiving stolen goods, committed after the age of only 16.
He often stood in the street outside his house and bellowed out the first Muslim prayer of the day. His parents spent a lot of time abroad in Libya (and possibly Syria)
He seems to have been a strange and troubled young man. One wonders just what he was exposed to during his trips to Libya/Syria; possibly some form of brain-washing. It may have given him some sort of 'identity' and 'purpose',as he appeared to have found none during his younger days.
Please don't imagine I'm trying to excuse what he did. But he was very young, and while not mentally ill (I assume) had evidently been marginalised and indoctrinated by people much wickeder than him.
I wonder if I'm the only person on the planet who also feels sad for him too?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:33 PM

The destabilisation of Libya and Iraq allowed the terrorists to organise.....That destabilisation happened with our aid.
"liberals" in UK and Us screamed for the removal of Gaddafi, Saddam and latterly Assad.

Anyone stating that truth is not disrespecting our armed forces, who must go where they are sent by the government of the day.

The rise of Jihadi terrorism corresponded to the demise of these leaders, leaving a vacuum which the terrorists filled and expanded their territory. Only after Putin stepped in to assist Assad did the downward spiral end and the terrorists start to retreat.

Response to Western values is indeed what drives these people to perform their atrocities.......the perpetrators may be mad or brainwashed, but the leaders of Wahhabi Islam are afraid that the tide of Western "liberalism" may reduce their power and see their religion go the way of Christianity.
There is no doubt that Western social values have nose dived in the last couple of decades and we live in a decadent society, but the response of these people is far beyond the pale and verging on crime against humanity.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: leeneia
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:44 PM

Maybe four or five years ago I read an article in the KC Star about a young "suicide bomber." it may change your views some.

She was an Iraqi, 14 years old and suffered from rheumatoid arthritis. Her family "married" her to an al-Queda leader, a man she had hardly ever seen.   She was kept in an apartment in Baghdad, surrounded by women associates of her so-called husband. One day, the women got strangely nice to her, and they gave her come delicious apricot juice.

The next thing she knew, she was wandering around a market, feeling dazed and wearing a vest full of explosives. A policeman came up to her and removed the components that would have detonated the vest. She was taken into custody, and no doubt her life was never the same after that. I would like to know where she is now, but no doubt that would be dangerous for her.

So now you know another way that "suicide bombers" are made.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:50 PM

evidence of a lot of adherents of a certain religion that sympathise with the atrocity.

Plenty of people of another "certain religion" sympathize with and support folks like Jeremy Joseph Christian (aptly named).

"liberals" in UK and Us screamed for the removal

So in your parallel universe, Ake, Geo. W. Bush, "Mad Dog" Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney are "liberals"?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 30 May 17 - 02:59 PM

"By the way, there's nothing wrong with our talking about this"

You know what, you're right. It's a shame some don't though.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 17 - 03:05 PM

Sadly, you're right about that.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:29 PM

I'm sorry that people aren't talking about it in precisely the terms you want, Stu. but maybe its the terms they need to think of it in.

Because you know, I believe some people find it easier to accept that these terrible happening are part of some great conspiracy that we can legislate against. The sheer senselessness of those murders is hard to understand.

There was a programme on TV this morning on PBS about the Lincoln assasination.

What was very obvious that most of the people who got hanged had no real wish to be involved. there was a conspiracy but it was in the head of one very disturbed individual. Most of the people in the group enjoyed talking about being terrorists - but only two actually did any terrorising.

I think thus it is. Think of all the bloodcurdling Irish rebel ballads and their calls for vengeance. few people have got the real desire for actual homicide. And they probably would have been murderers in any walk of life. Products of a society which couldn't find a role for them that satisfied their desire to be                        important.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:30 PM

I just wish we could talk about it without the usual political posturing. I am from Manchester, just 4 miles from the centre, although we 'emigrated' across the border 4 years ago. A good friend was working at the Arena that night. He was almost family in his younger days and now he has a partner and children of his own we are still close. It does drive these things home but you can see the way the press and some on here are trying to work it into their own agenda. Trying to improve the situation by learning from past mistakes is commendable. Trying to make political capital our of human tragedy is despicable.

Just my 2p.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 17 - 12:04 AM

well its the week before the election - human nature being what it is - with so much at stake - theres not much that's off limits.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 17 - 02:26 AM

1: No-one has blamed all Muslims for this attack.

2: The reason why the attacker committed this atrocity was in response to UK involvement in strikes against ISIS in Syria.

3: The attackers father fled Gaddafi's Libya and sought asylum in the UK. In July 2011 he returned to Libya to fight with an anti-Gaddafi group with links to Al-Qaeda. Subsequently his sons travelled out there to visit him. It is thought that Abedi visited both Libya and Syria.

4: The crass stupidity of the US Media that prompted publication of first the bombers name and then publication of photographs of forensic evidence recovered from the scene is astounding considering what happened in the USA on the 11th September 2001. Had the information thrown out by US MSM been kept under wraps it would have made the post-explosion police and intelligence work that much easier and could have led to significant arrests - As it was thanks to the NY Times Abedi's associates got the "heads up" and bolted having first destroyed any incriminating evidence.

5: Another concert being held next week-end with Justin Beiber no less - Just when you think that Manchester had suffered enough ......


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 17 - 03:58 AM

Come on keith! You don't KNOW any of that, any more than I do.

You didn't talk to the guy. Did you? And this network of nutty terrorists may just be an optical illusion, brought on by the police covering themselves when everyone at the local mosque was telling them - theres this mad bastard who is on about planting a bomb.

Apart the bit from Justin Beiber...I forgot you and him were mates.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:18 AM

sorry Teribus!


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:21 AM

I do not know anything about Abedi, but I think this is part of a continuum of attempted attacks and not a random one off.

Government and security agencies seem to be working on that assumption.

Steve and Dave, is it me being accused of having some kind of agenda?
What and why please?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:24 AM

"That destabilisation happened with our aid.
"liberals" in UK and Us screamed for the removal of Gaddafi, Saddam and latterly Assad."
I think this is a brilliant summing up of the problem Britain is facing and reflects the Establishment's position perfectly - removing the monsters, especially torturers like Assad is regarded as "destabilaisation"
We assist them with weapons and support, we ignore their atrocities, we are indifferent to the suffering of the people they oppress, and when they protest we offer either nothing, or at best, too little, too late.
And we are surprised when the younger generation go over to the extremists!!
The surprise is the more do not go over to them.
Ake's statement is a perfect reflection of the cynical contempt in which we in the wealthy West have always held the poorer nations we ponce off.
It's not too far in the future that the poor of the West will be treated as a "destabilising" element - the cracks are already beginning to surface.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 17 - 07:14 AM

Of course De-stabilisation is bad, when there is nothing to fill the vacuum. Had the US, UK, or any other of the Western nations taken over the governance of Iraq Libya or Syria and stayed till some sort of rule of law was established, these same idiot "liberals" would have started screaming again about fucking "rights".
They live out a myth, where they do tremendous damage but never accept any responsibility.

Of course all Western leaders know that it would be suicidal to attempt such a course, both financially and politically, so we just stick with the de-stabilisation.....it keeps the "liberals" happy and who cares what happens to the indigenous population.

As someone said at the time "Once we had only one Saddam, now we have tens of thousands"


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 31 May 17 - 07:47 AM

"these same idiot "liberals" would have started screaming again about fucking "rights"."

This is what I'm talking about.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 08:00 AM

"Of course De-stabilisation is bad, when there is nothing to fill the vacuum. "
The protests you sneer at were spontaneous actions aimed at improving the lot of the Arab peopl - they were not organised revolutions or the extremist plots you pass them off as.
The West has encouraged the oppression in their own interests and facilitated it with money and arms
Your "Britain First" attitude to immigration has made it clear that it is the interests of the home-grown population that comes first (excluding emigrants that have settled here for generations - your multiculturalism that has "proved a disaster")
How do you squatre that with your demand that dictators abroad should be kept in place for our benefit.
You are expressing the ideology of Empire perfectly - these people, wherever they are, are there to serve us (or our masters)
You want your cake and everybody elses.
Their society should develop to serve their people and we should never have say in who rules of how they should rule.
"Gaddafi, Saddam and latterly Assad" are you out of your mind?
Of course they needed to be kicked into touch - we should never have tolerated and ignored their Crimes against humanity in the first place and the kids of Manchester payed with their lives for our having done so.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 09:02 AM

I really think it high time that Ake came out of his closet and started referring to "humanitarians" rather than "liberals"
That is obviously what he means
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 17 - 11:06 AM

That Jim, is the exact opposite of what I mean. :0)

BTW I would have preferred to see Gaddafi, Assad and yes even Saddam in power than the disaster which has befallen all of these countries since the "liberals" started meddling in things of which they have no understanding......the myth just does not stand up when tested.

Can you honestly say that the population of Libya Syria or Iraq are happier, more secure better educated, better health services, more free, better housed etc, after the removal of their dictators?

If you can, then you are blind as well as stupid.





0


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 11:35 AM

"That Jim, is the exact opposite of what I mean"
You've been asked to define it and you refuse so I have to go to your source and assume you mean the same as the Lynching man's Crumpet, Ann Coulter (why do I have to stop myself typing Ann Summers whenever I write her name?)
"Can you honestly say that the population of Libya Syria or Iraq "
Of course I can't any more than I can see it under their leadership, but I can see an end to the torture, mass murder and persecution you seem to favour that is a fact of life.
http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21712142-dissidents-are-being-exterminated-syrian-jails-assads-torture-dungeons
Is this really what you are defending Ake
Your rightist extremism appears to have no limits.
These are the conditions the refugees you would refuse entry to or watch drowning are fleeing.
Opinions such as yours will continue to generate the hate for our Western inhumanity and continue to fill body bags.
Hope you're standing tall and proud
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 17 - 11:43 AM

Of course I can define "liberal" Jim, they are people of many political persuasions who have completely lost touch with reality and are consumed by a mythical ideology the pursuance of which has become one of the most illiberal and Orwellian political stances.

It is closely related to Fascism.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 17 - 11:57 AM

You see "an end to mass murder and persecution", well its a fucking good job you ain't a Christian then! Or someone who doesn't support ISIS and Al Nusra.
Why do you think these people are being butchered daily?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 01:41 PM

"It is closely related to Fascism."
Spokenn like a true socialist Ake!!!
"Why do you think these people are being butchered daily?"
Because they are allowdddd to because the butchers are coinsifdered "a safe poair of hands" in that part of the world - it helps keep our cars on the roads and fills our shops with cheap goods we can no longer manufacture ourselves.
I think I've elicited enough information to place your politics where they truly are - that'll do nicely!!
I'll leave it there
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 17 - 01:51 PM

they are people of many political persuasions who have completely lost touch with reality and are consumed by a mythical ideology the pursuance of which has become one of the most illiberal and Orwellian political stances.

AHA! Youre talking about Trump and the Trumpistas, then! Thanks for clearing that up, Ake.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 17 - 02:24 PM

Big Al Whittle - 31 May 17 - 03:58 AM

Points raised:

1: No-one has blamed all Muslims for this attack.

If you have evidence of any law enforcement Agency, Intelligence Agency, Media outlet, Government currently blaming all Muslims for this attack please provide it.

2: The reason why the attacker committed this atrocity was in response to UK involvement in strikes against ISIS in Syria.

Reason given by the attacker himself to his family and friends - according to Libyan Authorities who have arrested both the attacker's Father and Brother in Libya. Neither should be allowed to return to the UK.

3: The attackers father fled Gaddafi's Libya and sought asylum in the UK. In July 2011 he returned to Libya to fight with an anti-Gaddafi group with links to Al-Qaeda. Subsequently his sons travelled out there to visit him. It is thought that Abedi visited both Libya and Syria.

Records held by British Authorities, statements from Abedi's friends in the UK, information from Abedi's father and brother in Libya. Abedi's student loan funded the trips.

4: The crass stupidity of the US Media that prompted publication of first the bombers name and then publication of photographs of forensic evidence recovered from the scene is astounding considering what happened in the USA on the 11th September 2001. Had the information thrown out by US MSM been kept under wraps it would have made the post-explosion police and intelligence work that much easier and could have led to significant arrests - As it was thanks to the NY Times Abedi's associates got the "heads up" and bolted having first destroyed any incriminating evidence.

Had the NY Times kept quiet about the identity of the attacker then none of those who helped Abedi would have been aware the net was closing in on them.

Had the NY Times not published the forensic evidence photographs of the bomb parts salvaged from the scene of the attack then detectives could have followed the trail quietly without the bomb maker's knowledge - he could have no idea what had been found. The bomb was a well made and sophisticated device (Opinion of Home Office Experts)


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 03:26 PM

"law enforcement Agency, Intelligence Agency,"
That doesn't exclude those who continue to hold
all Muslims responsible -as proven by the sharp rise of racist attacks following th concert
Muslim communities have consistently been coupled with attacks such as this.
This time the press and the government have been a little more circumspect
"The reason why the attacker committed this atrocity was in response to UK involvement in strikes against ISIS in Syria."
Statement by bombers sister
"Sister reveals motives of Manchester massacre monster: Salman Abedi 'wanted revenge for British-Libyan friend killed in racist attack and justice for Syrian children killed by America
Bomber's sister Jomana Abedi, 18, described older brother as kind and loving
She said Salman Abedi was likely driven to murder what he saw as injustices
Family friend alleged that it was murder of Abedi's friend that caused him to kill
The teenager was run over and stabbed in Manchester last year"

Where does your inforamation come from?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 17 - 03:32 PM

Report in full
"Sister reveals motives of Manchester massacre monster: Salman Abedi 'wanted revenge for British-Libyan friend killed in racist attack and justice for Syrian children killed by America
Bomber's sister Jomana Abedi, 18, described older brother as kind and loving
She said Salman Abedi was likely driven to murder what he saw as injustices
Family friend alleged that it was murder of Abedi's friend that caused him to kill
The teenager was run over and stabbed in Manchester last year
The Manchester bomber's sister has claimed he was driven to murder because he wanted revenge for 'the explosives America drops on children in Syria'.
Jomana Abedi, 18, described her older brother Salman as kind and loving and said she was surprised that he had detonated a suicide bomb, killing 22 people after an Ariana Grande concert at Manchester Arena on Monday.
Speaking to the Wall Street Journal she said she thought he was driven by what he saw as injustices.
'I think he saw children—Muslim children—dying everywhere, and wanted revenge', Miss Abedi told the paper.
'He saw the explosives America drops on children in Syria, and he wanted revenge. Whether he got that is between him and God,' she added.
A family friend also alleged that it was the murder of Abedi's teenage friend that caused him to kill.
The teenager was run over and stabbed in Manchester in May 2016 in what is believed to have been a gangland killing.
An unnamed family friend said Abedi was 'vowing revenge' at the funeral and he viewed the murder as a hate crime."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Donuel
Date: 31 May 17 - 03:56 PM

Let the dead rest with more than your endless recriminations.
Let fond memories be learned and remembered instead of the hate that is brewing here.

Too soon? or 'But I know why'- is not an excuse. There is some shameful party line bile that is not respectful or sensical .


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 02:42 AM

the thing is ...history is not like a hot/cold water sytrem.

we didn't get the electoral reform act of 1870 and the NHS started the next day.
Libyans can't expect that you get rid of Gadaffi and then peace and harmony will break out. its unrealistic.
that's why people want to move here. its a done deal. our parents starved in the 1930's, and fought and saw their folks killed in WW2 to enjoy the life and affluence many of us enjoy.

you can't blame people for not wanting their families to be caught up in all the shit that's going on in their societies,

ultimately though, their countries have to fight and evolve their way out of the shit themselves. killing kids in Warrington, like the IRA did, or Manchester like this nutcase/freedom fighter did is no part of the solution.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 02:58 AM

"ultimately though, their countries have to fight and evolve their way out of the shit themselves. killing kids in Warrington, like the IRA did, or Manchester like this nutcase/freedom fighter did is no part of the solution."

Very well said sir.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 03:52 AM

"ultimately though, their countries have to fight and evolve their way out of the shit themselves."
A little simplistic Al
The twisted reasoning of those who plant the bombs is based on the fact that we are supplying the weapons and support from their oppressors.
If we stand by and allow our governments to do that, it's inevitable that they will recognise us part of what they have to overcome - not fair, but understandable.
When the China/Russia veto prevented the UN from acting against Assad, Britain held a vote to decide whether to become involved - we washed our hands of the responsibility of stopping the atrocities of our not-so-former friend and the LEGALITY of our involvement is quesionable.
At the height of his terror, Assad's officers and government officials were deserting and begging Britain to take simple measures against this state terrorist - economic and diplomatic pressure, the seizure of his London property - nothing was done and his gofer continued to move in and out of London with impunity
Now we are fighting Isis as Assad's ally - tell Assad's victims that his atrocities are "nuffin' to do with us guv"
Throughout the Irish 'Troubles' our interest in music brought us annually to this part of Western Ireland - we arrived in this town at the height of the period when the Hunger Strikers were dying unnecessarily, expecting to see some resentment - we saw none, but it would have been understandable if there had been any.
If we are going to ignore the fact that Britain is as wealthy as it is because of our centuries of exploitation of these countries which we helped to keep poor and subservient to the Empire, then at least we need to take responsibility for the actions of a Government which opened a massive arms fair aimed at selling weapons to Middle Eastern despots at the time the Arab Spring protests were just beginning.
Like it or not, it is a fact that that the wealthy Western Countries are part of the oppression - we helped keep the Assad family in its place despite the torture and mass murder - we prop up the Saudi regime because we want their oil - we fill our shops with goods made by virtual Third World slaves
In the past, we helped prop us the Apartheid regime in South Africa and welcomed dignitaries from Greece while the Generals were torturing, raping and murdering the Greek people - the Pinochet/Thatcher love-affair which helped prevent a mass-murderer from standing trial was probably the lowest point of our co-operation with fascism.
It's a wonder we don't have more enemies than we do.
We need to take responsibilities fro the actions of our politicians otherwise 'the sins of the fathers are bound to be visited on the children'
We really can't continue washing our hands of those responsibilities.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 06:22 AM

i think you're the one that's being simplistic.
There will always be the out and out bastards - the Khashoggi's and the Mark Thatchers who will flog you arms.

this is the gross nature of existence. we have to deal with it.

Jesus had his faults, I'm sure. But blessed are the peacemakers was a true and clever observation to make.

ultimately the guys who wrest power from the oppressor are those that change the minds of people.

rather in the way that Jeremy Corbyn is trying to do.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 06:59 AM

You just don't get it Jim, you are truly a dinosaur.   A "liberal dinosaur". Sometime everywhere people must take responsibility for their welfare, usually through political evolution.

It is NOT always somebody else's fault in politics or in society at large.   I heard a group of sixth form scholars being interviewed on BBC radio today....they were completely brainwashed....all the media "liberal" buzz words, but not a clue about life or how to survive it. The thought process and attention span had gone, I'm afraid, never to return.

I truly despair for humanity, the media have turned our young folks into dumb helpless automatons.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:00 AM

"You just don't get it Jim, you are truly a dinosaur."
No Ake - it's you who don't get it and you never will until you address the fats of people being oppressed by despots who rely on British politicians support and are directly exploited by British firms who profit on starvation-level wages and dangerous working conditions
You want to claim these factors don't exist - prove it with evidence
If you do agree they exist, you are part of that exploitation by supporting it
If you believe it is the lot of the people of the poorer nations top bear their burden without complain, than have the decency lay your cards on the table and say so
You will address none of these because you don't make practice of justifying your arguments - you prefer to just deny and call those who disagree with you "liberals" (which turns out by your confession to be "fascists")
Fascists are those who support repressive dictators and terrorists like "Gaddafi, Saddam and latterly Assad" or claim that mass murderers like Anders Breivik has "something to say worth listening to" or support making refugees wear "yellow star" type identification - (feel free to wear which of these badges you recognise as your own)
Never mind the denial bullshit - which of the claims I have made about our involvement with dictators have I got wrong exactly (I doubt if I will live long enough to be around for an answer - you're "too busy" to involve yourself in open debate so I'll have to settle for your refusal to answer as an indication that you have no argument)
Al
Washing your hands of what our governments do in our name is as bad as Ake's defending it.
I, like you, would like to see Corbyn elected and live up to his promises, but how many more innocent people slaughtered in the meantime
In my lifetime I protested against nuclear arms, racism, South Africa, hospital closures, Vietnam, youth unemployment in the North of England, in support of the miners.
Probably none of this made a happorth of difference to Government policy, but at least I didn't end up with their shit or blood on my hands and I can tell those who come after me what I did in the war.
I see the latest Western involvement in exploitation of the poor has hit the fan this morning
The factory making Ivanka Trump's shoes is under investigation for breaching International Labour Laws and two of the Human Rights investigators have 'disappeared'
We now have a U.S. administration directly implicated in the exploitation of the poor
How dare these "fucking Liberals" make these facts known publicly and "destabilise" our Western well-being!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:03 AM

What utter eyewash. In general today's young people are hard-working, socially responsible and concerned for their futures. I've worked with hundreds of them. Where do you get YOUR information, pray tell?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:08 AM

That was directed at akenaton.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:08 AM

"I truly despair for humanity, the media have turned our young folks into dumb helpless automatons."

Not many of the ones I know.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:33 AM

dumb helpless automatons

Speaking of which, someone does come to mind.......


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:42 AM

Sorry lads - you are wasting your time with this ranting moron
As far as I am concerned these attacks are related directly to our collusion with exploiters and despots and will continue as long as that collusion continues so will our vulnerability increase.
Happy to discuss whether that's accurate or not - feeding the troll is going to send this thread crashing again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 09:08 AM

well lets look at it case by case.

if we don't supply the Saudis with arms, do you really believe no one else will.(rhetorical question, won't bother with a question mark).
british economy would get poorer, less money for good works.

would you rather have the royal family arseholes, or the radical islam arseholes in charge?
that's the only realistic option at this point. THeres not a great deal of incentive for us to destabilise the oppressor, change one gang of head choppers for another.

you might want there to be a different situation, but the only people who can change the rules of this game are the Saudi people themselves.

its not like South Africa - there will be no overnight resolution.
this is a situation we have to live with.

if the Saudis wanted strawberries - we'd try to sell them that.

at the moment , they want arms. we are a trading nation.

its not what we want - its how it is.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 11:11 AM

" do you really believe no one else will."
Pathetic excuse Al - let the ones who sell them buy their dead because of their involvement in this filthy trade - I don't want it on my conscience
Britain as a leading "democratic" nation is ideally placed to give a lead in stopping thhis horrific trade by saying no.
"would you rather have the royal family arseholes, or the radical islam arseholes in charge?"
Pathetic again Al and an argument favoured by right-wing fanatics like Ake
The Arab Spring protests wee attempts to improve conditions and introduce more freedom - not to push a religious line
Our inaction and active participation in providing the wherewithal to suppress the protests drove the protesters into the arms of a tiny group of unknown fanatics who nobody had heard of - it was a golden opportunity to win the friendship of ordinary people - totally missed
If you are suggesting these are the only two alternatives then you really are no different than Ake.
Ther was no "overnight revolution in South Africa - it took decades of protests and boycotts before the regime cracked
"at the moment , they want arms. we are a trading nation."
Then why don't we deal in crack cocaine - I'm sure there's a market for it out ther
We helped start a war because these people were supposed to have weapons and the excuse was that they shouldn't have them - yet we sell them - even to the extent of selling chemicals to a madman who is capable of turning them to arm andd using them on hos own people
Come ooooonnnnnn Al
You can do better than that
It is morally wrong to sell arms to killers
Ji Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 11:18 AM

I've refrained from posting to this thread so far. It's a bit too close to home having happened in my home city.

Could I ask that some of you remember that twenty two people lost the lives and scores were injured, some of whom may never fully recover.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 01:30 PM

Raggy
Discussing this seriously and attempting to work out why these things happen is the only way I can think of to ascertain they don't continue to happen.
I lived in Manchester for four years and still have friends there
I lived through the London bombing campaign during 'The Troubles' and have a relative who had part of her hand blown away by a loyalist bomb - I also have relatives who were driven out of the British North of Ireland for being "the wrong religion".
Whoever is responsible for these things, much of them are being caused by policies carried out in our name.
I think it's well beyond the time that we started taking Ireland, Afghanistan, Syria..... seriously rather than only expressing sympathy and taking sides.
Not sure if it's that that you are getting at.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 01:35 PM

nobody drives you an act like Manchester. Existentially, you have a choice. he didn't have to kill those kids.

now you may wish to have a spotless conscience. but are you willing to put hundreds of people on the dole so that Jim Carrol can say, i will do nothing bad.

And just cos Ake says something - it doesn't mean it is without validity.

would the situation be better if we got rid of the royal family, by denying them our weapon systems, and handed it over to the Taliban.

what will you tell the people being summarily executed for taking their daughters to school. JIm Carrol couldn't bear to deal arms , so we thought we'd better let these bastards take over.

these are the choices May and Corbyn say they are willing to take. Good luck to them


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 02:50 PM

Hi Raggytash

<" Could I ask that some of you remember that twenty two people lost the lives and scores were injured, some of whom may never fully recover.">

I completely agree with you.

I was born in St Mary's Hospital in Manchester and lived my first 8 years in Chorlton. And since then have lived in Greater Manchester.

This outrage has affected many people as well as the 23 murdered people and those still critically injured.

In our village one person was killed and 3 are still very ill in hospital. The village is shattered by the blows.

My son's business partner went the previous day to get tickets for herself and her two young daughters ( one who features in a well known TV advert).

Obviously they are relieved that they couldn't get tickets; but they are heavily affected by it all.

Trying to score political points at a terrible time like this should not happen, particularly so soon after the shocking action.

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 03:06 PM

"now you may wish to have a spotless conscience. but are you willing to put hundreds of people on the dole so that Jim Carrol can say, i will do nothing bad. "
A truly awful attitude Al
Go and look how many people are killed and maimed at the weapons we sell
Would I rather see people on the dole - too ***** right I would   
"And just cos Ake says something - it doesn't mean it is without validity."
I hope you can live with the consequences the next time Assad uses chemicxal weapons built with material we sold him
I don't challenge Ake because it's Ake - I challenge him because of what he says
Sorry Al - we really have nothing more to say to each other
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 03:14 PM

People who try to shut down discussion, are also making political points.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 05:00 PM

"People who try to shut down discussion, are also making political points."
People who try to persuader the unpersuaded wreck threads
DFot he sake of this discussion leave it alone Ake and give those who have something different to say a chance
We've already had more than our share of a turn and I'm sure people know where we all stand
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 07:57 PM

'Would I rather see people on the dole - too ***** right I would'

well good luck with that in your election campaign...

Assad is another interesting one - a complete shit, but really we would prefer him to anything else on offer in that neck of the woods. so really - we're backing him - whatever disclaimers we make about his monstrous behaviour.

You remember when David Owen and Andy Young went jogging in the park together and decided mid jog to drop the Shah of Iran in the shit.
Or when Blair told us we were within 20 mins of being obliterated by Iraq's WMDs, and consequently Saddam had to go. both decisions got rid of nasty leaders - a bit like Assad, but were those decisions in the best interest of those indigenous populations? i suspect not.

these are the kind of decisions that you will be voting about next week. you may not have anything to say about it to me, but i'm not going to deny what i've seen, or pretend that those politicians (even the saintly Corbyn) are not engaged in this sort of realpolitik. Recent events actually suggest he might be the smartest cookie in the box.

doesn't the actual nature of politics interest you at all. what Harold Wilson called the 'galloping pragmatism' of the participants in this game.

morally of course it stinks, but your politicians are working in a sewer. how could it be any other way?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:34 PM

I'm now thinking that I should have agreed with Stu and Acme days ago and just let it be. The sourness and negativity that this thread is generating is thoroughly disrespectful to the victims and families affected by this ghastly atrocity. I'm out of this thread.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 09:45 PM

maybe you're right.

i don't feel i've been sour and negative, no more than usual. i'm just not sure that the idealists are the good guys in this drama.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 01:54 AM

"when Blair told us we were within 20 mins of being obliterated by Iraq's WMDs, and consequently Saddam had to go. both decisions got rid of nasty leaders - a bit like Assad, but were those decisions in the best interest of those indigenous populations? i suspect not."

The only thing is Big Al, Blair never said anything of the sort, a UK tabloid rag called "The Sun" said it and it was 45 minutes not 20. As to the demise of Saddam, I think that if asked the indigenous population, especially the majority Shia population of Iraq would definitely tell you that they were better off now than under Saddam's rule (During which for almost 24 years Saddam's regime on average murdered somewhere between 154 and 252 Iraqis every single day). The other thing is that ISIS is made up of former Iraqi Ba'athist supporters of Saddam Hussein who fled over the border into Syria during the Sunni Awakening in 200/2007.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 04:10 AM

I don't think anyone's posted this link yet, to what John Pilger has found out about what's going on.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/31/terror-in-britain-what-did-the-prime-minister-know/

This is important. Please save it and share it.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 04:40 AM

"John Pilger has found out about what's going on."
Many thanks Jack - that puts the situation where it should be in our minds - Jay-sus!!
Where would we be without the brave journalism of people like Pilger?
I've often wondered why he hasn't ended up sharing a room in exile with Assange or part of the support for a motorway
"well good luck with that in your election campaign..."
When we put winning elections and jobs above peoples' lives we confirm our statu as a true predatory nation Al
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 08:43 AM

Jim , if you're applying for a job lower in the food chain - i think its only fair to point out you may lose some of the benefits you have previously enjoyed and maybe got to rely on.

Teribus
i've no idea how the the Iraqis are getting on, after the war, there were numerous interviews of people on the streets saying they wish, we'd never invaded, and please sod off.

most of the kids i used to teach in Derby were Sunni's. you can see how the the invasion and bombing must have pissed off a lot of Asian Brits.

they said at the time that Asian youth would be 'disenchanted'.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 09:52 AM

My apologies Big Al, I was unaware of the fact that it is forbidden to challenge anything you say without you resorting to insults.

Per capita GDP for Iraq PRIOR to Saddam taking over was something like US$29,000

Per capita GDP for Iraq in 2003 after almost 24 years of Saddam's rule was down to US$509

Per capita GDP for Iraq in 2016 was US$16,500

I'd guess that the above indicates a move in the right direction and the other obvious question that begs answering Big Al - If as you say you ....have no ideas how the Iraqis are getting on.... Then please do not come up with baseless statements (By your own admission) about decisions not being in the best interests of "indigenous people".


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 09:55 AM

I am pretty sure that the 'please sod off' comment was what the Iraqis were saying to us Teribus, not what Al was saying to you. Is this how wars start?

:tG


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 10:23 AM

"Jim , if you're applying for a job lower in the food chain - "
Great argument for a return to Empire days where we can happy live off the the poorer nations of the world Al
I have no desire to do that and I never have had.
Perhaps when it becomes impossible to do so, the lesser well off in Britain will get off their arses and do something about the rapidly increasing gap between haves and have nots instead of relying on immoral trade.
It's not a decent argument Al - it debases us as human beings and it's what those in power rely on to maintain a floundering system - divide and conquor.
One thing Isis and Manchester has shown is that to continue treating the Third World as a meal ticket and immigrants as an unwelcome liability is blowing up in our faces and it's ordinary people like bus passengers and young concert goers who are taking the brunt of it.
You can bet your house and land that if these incidents were taking place in Belgravia or the leafy suburbs, Government would take more long-term actions to win hearts and minds to try and to stop them instead of moving the deck-chairs, as they are now.
We cannot continue to live off the misery of the poor of the world.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 10:27 AM

yes Dave that was how it was meant.

as a carer for someone who is disabled - i've watched the electorate taken in by the GDP bollocks, time after time. it hides a multitude of lies and skulduggery and no one but a scoundrel or an economist (I think after the 'monetarism' inspired destruction of British industry, the terms are pretty much interchangeable) would use it.

have you been there? have they restored main services to everyone? has everyone got enough to eat? there now aren't the US led sanctions - so people should be better off. but they could stopped the sanctions without killing anyone.

what is the base of your vast intelligence system. does your circle of friends encompass any Iraqis living there.

Go on! If there was good news I bet we would have been told. You enlighten us all with your personal knowledge.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 10:45 AM

what John Pilger has found out about what's going on.

Has he found anything out?
I think if he had, it would have been picked up by reputable news agencies and outlets.
Has the Guardian picked it up, or BBC or New Statesman?

Why only extreme Left sites?

I think that he has just created a narrative around the events.
One of many possible narratives.

Trump supporters will cheer at this, "In fact, Obama was a leading actor in the "shit show", urged on by his warmongering Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton,"


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 11:13 AM

"Why only extreme Left sites?"
Because the "extreme left" is the only section of politics guaranteed not to be involved in corruption and self-interest, has no racist agenda and has never blamed foreigners for the shortcomings of the system - that is the position of the right.
Pilger's article makes sense and his reputation for honest and unbiased reporting as a HIGHLY QUALIFIED AND RESPECTED JOURNALIST with masses of international experience stands him in good stead.
Much of what he says in his article has long been established
Not your choice of reading Keith, but why should the rabid right have all the best tunes
Of course you could disprove it by - well - disproving it, but we all know that's not going to happen
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 11:53 AM

its all getting a bit like one of those Ibsen plays, Torvald Torvald and Thorestein Schnoodleputz have a plumbing supply business. They have put cheap leaky washers on everyones taps, thereby making an immoral fortune.
40 minutes later Gothen Bergen (unlike his sickly brother Bergen Bergen) opens a window. Symbolising light being shed on the problem.

Eighty minutes later Berghaus Waterproof closes the window.

Curtain.

Discuss.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 03:55 AM

Much of what he says in his article has long been established

Really? What?

Because the "extreme left" is the only section of politics guaranteed not to be involved in corruption and self-interest, has no racist agenda

No true Jim.

You will give no credence to anything from an extreme Right Wing site, and rightly so.
They will say anything to further their agenda, with truth and reality playing no part.
The extreme Left is exactly the same Jim.

If Pilger had really found anything like that it would be a huge story, and Jack would not need to ask us to disseminate it!


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 04:15 AM

If you7 have anything to say that you can disprove of Pilger's article feel free to educate us Keith
Otherwise, please don't be wasting our time.
Denial is boring and, as you have proved over and over again, a diversion from the facts
Finis
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 06:11 AM

Jim . By what you have written previously it would seem your belief in Pilger as having a "reputation for honest and unbiased reporting" is very selective. His writings on the Syrian crisis certainly differ substantially from what you have offered on the subject. Take the white helmets as just one example.
How do you reconcile this ambiguity?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 06:58 AM

Perhaps its JP telling the truth and Jim telling lies? Sorry distorting and misrepresenting, forgot Jim was a "liberal"...it's what they do.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 07:23 AM

Anyway, its a bit rich taking us anti terrorists to task for being disrespectful to the dead, when over 10000 "Mancunians" falsely applied for free tickets (reserved for people who attended the Grande concert) to give admission to a second Concert.


Now that's what I call disrespect!!

You can take the lad out of Manchester, but you can't take Manchester out of the lad...EH?


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 07:23 AM

Close this thread, please.


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 08:07 AM

"Close this thread, please."
Please do not - I have no intention of responding to these trolls.
It would be a crying shame to allow them to wreck an important discussion such as this.
If people think it would help, I would be prepared to withdraw from it - maybe they believe Jack should withdraw for making this information available also!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Manchester Explosion May 22, 2017
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jun 17 - 09:56 AM

Is there any concrete evidence to support the assertion that 10,000 Mancunians applied for tickets.

Akenaton, how do you know the people were Mancunians and not people from other areas of the country.

And before you say you used the term "mancunians" your last sentence gives the lie to what you actually meant.


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