BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 08:58 AM

Well stop telling "the likes of us" that we can't afford it then Jim.

Ake: thats bollocks. Just try one of the courses if you are in doubt. Register for an OU access module, they are free to people on low incomes.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 08:47 AM

"oh god JIm, was it ever?"
Not sure there is any evidence of that being anything more than a lack of imagination Al.
All the right-wing Governments I've been conscious of have been happy to let school leavers hang around street corners and fend for themselves.
The problem with all national politics is that it deals with all these things as separate issues rather than approaching the holistically
I was a product of the Secondary Modern conveyor belt system of education and an remember being envious of my younger sisters who experienced Comprehensive education - not perfect by any means but better than what I got
I don't think our politicians have enough imaginations to conceive conspiracies, such as are being suggested here - they don't care enough anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 07:59 AM

oh god JIm, was it ever?

i remember ROSLA -raising of the school age to 16.
they were already kicking their heels for a year at fifteen.
there was no extra money, no planning. no new exciting courses.
they were all promised - you'll get a package detailing the brave new world.
i remember one old salt in the staffroom said - yeh i bet we'll open it and its just got a cane inside!

Heath just didn't fancy paying them dole money. that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 07:16 AM

A lot of further education was designed simply to keep school leavers off the dole queue"
No it wasn't - prove it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:57 AM

A lot of further education was designed simply to keep school leavers off the dole queue. Some of the courses on offer are idiotic and useless. Education should mean real education not social experimentation.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:48 AM

""education is not for the likes of us""
Exactly the opposite Dave
Education has to be for the likes of us, butt thanks to previous administrations it has become less accessible
Things and policies need to change if the mass of humanity in our society is not to continue being downgraded and wasted
I come from a family that realised the necessity of education if we were going to reach our full potential - my granndfather helped found the Seman's branch of the Workers Education Association   - it's in the blood
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:33 AM

A student loan may not block a mortgage application, unless you're saddled with other debts as well, but it is taken into consideration when your affordability assessment is made. The rules on this were tightened up several years ago. It's likely to have an impact on most applicants.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 06:23 AM

Jim, that is getting dangerously close to saying "education is not for the likes of us". It is for likes of us, and for our children. Other countries recognise this, and their young people behave accordingly.

McGrath, I don't think most mortgage companies would regard a student loan debt as a block to a mortgage, since it would be written off on a term shorter than a typical mortgage repayment schedule. And people in this position shouldn't really be looking at other "credit options".

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 17 - 02:09 AM

I agree with that McGrath; our strategy for higher education is deeply flawed and it was my biggest concern with Labour's no fee policy: it seemes very likely to make those issues worse. I am all for life long education and increasing the skills of everyone. I am not convinced Universities are the answer. Nor am I comfortable that their increasing role as property managers is wise.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 08:51 PM

I also know that if they had not gone to university their life chances would have been severely curtailed

But in how many cases is that not because the university degree enables people to be sure of a well paid job, but because if kids don't have a degree their chances of competing in the job market is very much reduced?

Many young people end up doing the same kind of job they could obtained without a degree before graduates became a glut on the market, but with massive debts hanging over them, ready to kick in whenever they start earning more, and damaging their credit options even before that.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 08:30 AM

Not taking this any further Dave
I did not put uup one link - I put up several.
You chose what you believed to be an Achilles Heel in the argument and concentrated on it to show that higher education has not been put out of reach of ordinary working people and made elitist again
Even the Tory mouthpiece Daily Telegraph admits that it has, - that is what this discussion is about.
Lucky old you to be able to send your kids to University.
Pity the rest of the country can't say the same.
My generation fought for the right to eduacate their children to a higher level and we moved on from Richard Attenborough's "Guinea Pig" days
Now we are back there with a vengeance.
The same is happening with the health service that was opposed by the Tories when it was introduced - whittled and eroded by them into the death-trap it is rapidly becoming - all they had to do was bide their time
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jun 17 - 05:26 AM

Thats a different link Jim, in your earlier post you gave one link to THES and one to the Daily Mail (which I will not follow as a matter of principle). I know all about student loans, I have three children with them, but I also know that if they had not gone to university their life chances would have been severely curtailed. And I will tell you that things have improved in Liverpool, and the main reason that they have improved has been ERDF Objective 1 funding, European Social Fund and other similar streams. The EU pulled Liverpool out of the mire when the UK would not, although admittedly Heseltine tried.

Another thing from the THES article, the accommodation cost of £130 per week (it is now £145) appears to be for Carnatic student village, where the accommodation is catered. So its really all you need apart from bus fares, and I think there is a shuttle bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 08:13 PM

"It was the Times Higher Education Supplement, Jim, not the Telegraph"
NO - IT WAS THE TELEGRAPH
Nothing to do with expectations
And please don't tell me about my home town; I was there a couple of weeks ago and I know how cheap it is.
The point you were making was a superficial one - it is the lingering debt that is the problem with student loans and they follow you for years to wherever you come from and wherever you end up
One of the great Thatcher legacies was the situation where, if you need work, the soft South east underbelly is the main place in Britain guaranteed to meet your needs - try paying back your loan and paying London prices for accommodation if you need to work there
I left Liverpool in the late sixties because I couldn't find work and nobody can tell me things have improved since them
"I mentioned what the payments required under the student scheme would be for people earning that sort of salary"
And I pointed out that I wasn't referring to those drawing that sort of salary - I was pointing to the reports which are saying that students fees are excluding the lower paid
Your "good meal" was just a hackneyed Tebbit-like response to that situation - not unrelated to "If they drank less", or "had less children", or didn't fritter their money away on colour teles or the betting shop"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 04:59 PM

It was the Times Higher Education Supplement, Jim, not the Telegraph. And they weren't lying, they were quoting someone. But I am just saying that the someone has quite unreasonable expectations.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 03:08 PM

McGrath of Harlow - 11 Jun 17 - 02:07 PM

I imagine Teribus thinks that nobody gets less than £32,000 to £35,000.

Then you'd imagine wrong Kevin. I mentioned what the payments required under the student scheme would be for people earning that sort of salary - Jom the infallible responded that people could not afford to go out and eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 03:05 PM

"Jim, students do have problems but you don't help yourself with that link. A snippet:"
Bit of nitpicking there - one line from half a dozen postings
Is The Daily Telegraph (voice of teh Tory Party) really lying on this one?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:15 PM

"I imagine Teribus thinks..."

I always knew you had a fertile imagination, Kevin.

(Don't worry, chaps, I'm just off to the naughty step...)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:12 PM

spending!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:11 PM

It's a wonder Jiminy Carolburger has any time to eat, spensing so much time whinging on behalf of other people!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 02:07 PM

I imagine Teribus thinks that nobody gets less than £32,000 to £35,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 01:59 PM

Jim, students do have problems but you don't help yourself with that link. A snippet:

"About her life in Liverpool, she says: "It was crazy expensive. The nearest supermarket was a £10 taxi ride away from my flat despite living quite close to the centre; buying food wasn't expensive, but going-out costs and the cost of things to do was really high."

Now I know the University of Liverpool quite well, and there is a Tesco Express right there on campus, there is a LIDL on London Road, its a short walk down Brownlow Hill to ALDI, and there is a vast ASDA at Sefton Park. So you do your shopping between lectures and home. And as for "going-out costs", Liverpool is about the cheapest place in the country to go out, and how often do you do it anyway when you are supposed to be studying. When I did my degree we had Saturday evening off, and Sunday morning for chapel, that was about it. "Things to do"??? Sounds like the lecturers weren't setting enough work.

Student rents are a problem, but Liverpool is again one of the cheaper places.

Now I agree that NHS staff are under huge pressure, courtesy of Mr. Jeremy C. Hunt who seems against all reason to have kept his job today. But thats nothing to with NHS staff being working class, its more to do with perceptions of the public sector. I think many people would not even regard NHS staff as working class, simply because they are public sector.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 10:32 AM

"No they don't Jim"
You have been given the situation from a variety of sources, including the Tory's own mouthpiec, The Telegraph
SOME MORE
All lying - don't think so !!
Even "FREE EDUCATION" is suffering under the present regime as things stand
No way to educate a nation
"Working class people, if such a term means anything"
The fact that you have to question this puts you where you are I'm afraid
I've just buried a younger sister who virtually died offour years of being treated by overworked and underpaid staff fighting to meet unattainable targets in a North of England NHS Hospital
Tell any of those involved that there is no class division in today's Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 09:31 AM

No they don't Jim, and all UK universities have widening access programmes which benefit students from families from low income households (whatever their projected income might be). If people like you keep saying that working people can't afford to be educated, they will believe it themselves, and not make the most of their lives.

My grandfather was a coal miner, until the mines in his area closed in the 1920s. Seven generations before him at least were coal miners. My father could have a place at a good school, but, it being the 1920s and 30s, they couldn't afford for him to take it up. Nevertheless he worked his way into what you might describe as a "middle class profession". I wouldn't, I think such terminology is meaningless. But when I had a chance to obtain a good education, my father and grandfather were quite clear, that I should never, ever turn such an opportunity down.

Working class people, if such a term means anything, have more opportunities for education than ever before. And it pains me that so many will not take them.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:54 AM

"£32,000 and £35,000 "
Who was referring to them? - we are talking about working people who can't afford to be educated, not those who have managed to scrabble up the greasy pole
Loans exclude working people - simples, go read the facts instead of distorting them.
Yu have all the smugness of the privileged - if you are not one of them you have your nose wedged firmly up their collective arses
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 07:48 AM

i'm fed up with Corbyn saying, I'm ready to serve the country...

I always feel like saying ....in that case...cod, chips, mushy peas and a bottle of vimto.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:23 AM

Teribus, I really don't agree with your first point, although that is maybe a personal perspective. I would never, for instance, take out an interest only mortgage, I would only incur debt if I could see an end to it in sight.

I do agree with your second point though. I get fed up with people who are really quite well off, claiming to have been "left behind". Its those on disability benefit, those sanctioned as they have been declared fit for work, and those who really cannot work as they have, for instance, learning difficulties, who have my sympathies.

Find you, just because you can afford to go out for a meal, doesn't mean you have to. Always check the food hygiene scores.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:17 AM

Try getting a loan if you have big debt, you clown. Here's an actual case close to me. Person I know in debt. TSB loan offer to them to clear it over four years, interest 22.5%. I took on their debt and took out a loan with TSB. Loan offer 3.5%. I pay the loan and my person pays me. That's reality. It doesn't seem to exist in your world.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:10 AM

So what Shaw??

You are among those wittering on about crippling debt - debt is crippling only if you HAVE TO repay it - As shown in the examples given in the article I provided the link to it would appear that the vast bulk of student loans will never be repaid and that the restricted deductions from salary are extremely modest and can in no way be described as "crippling"

Oh by the way Jom anybody earning between £32,000 and £35,000 a year who cannot afford to go out for a meal at least once a month,m or cannot afford to put food on the table is either piss poor at managing his/her money or a miser.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:06 AM

Not sure what your link shows other than to prove that students will be burdened with an unpayable debt for a large portion of their working lives
No of which goes anywhere near to responding to the fact that the sysyem puts higher education totally out of reach of millions of young people - an elitist education system.
Jim Carroll


I'll put this up in all its glory
Independant Saturday 18 February 2017
Debts accumulated during university years are so high that students are suffering from mental ill health and cannot afford to buy food, according to new research.
Sky-high tuition fees and the rising cost of living have been blamed for "overwhelming" stress levels felt by the majority of students, with one in seven admitting they have been chased by debt collectors as a result of missing rent payments.
A survey commissioned by financial technology company Intelligent Environments found three-quarters of students who receive maintenance loans feel stressed about the amount of debt they accumulate while studying, with over a third (39 per cent) saying they cannot afford their weekly food shop.
Disadvantaged teenagers four times less likely to apply for university
Over a quarter of students admitted to missing rent payments, with three in five polled (58 per cent) running out of money completely before their next payment is due.
Estelle Clarke, advisory board member for the Intergenerational Foundation, said the findings were particularly concerning in light of recent Government moves to sell off student loan debts to private companies.
She said: "There is an undisputed negative relationship between debt and mental health. Being unable to pay bills is particularly stressful.
"Student loans put unnecessary pressure on borrowers because they are so expensive. It is upsetting to think of students depriving themselves of food and perhaps enduring loneliness, trapped in their rooms because they cannot afford to eat or go out.
"Unfortunately, the proposed sales of student loans could well make the situation even worse," she added. "This grossly unfair reality has serious implications for mental health."
David Webber, managing director at Intelligent Environments, called the results "worrying" and suggested banks could do more to support younger customers, in particular in managing their finances.
But industry experts warn the figures are reflective of a higher education system that is becoming increasingly unaffordable, forcing students to take out unmanageable loans they will never be able to pay off.
Ucas figures released earlier this month pointed to a dramatic fall in student application numbers from the UK and abroad, fuelling fears many students are being put off higher education due to the financial implications.
Shelly Asquith, National Union of Students (NUS) vice president said: "Students are being mounted with colossal levels of debt that are increasing year on year.
"The NUS is concerned about the impact this has on the likelihood of working-class students to apply to university.
"We also believe that increased poverty and debt is a major factor in the sharp increase of students experiencing mental ill health."
In spite of social stereotypes, the top three items students said they spend their money on were rent (78 per cent), food (69 per cent) and utility bills (47 per cent), with the average student loan fund running dry by the sixth week of term.
A significant proportion of students with maintenance loans said they rely on additional sources of income to get through the term, with two-thirds (65 per cent) turning to parents or other family members in times of need.
Others rely on their student overdrafts (58 per cent), dip into their savings (27 per cent), incur further debts on credit cards (six per cent) and even take out payday loans (nine per cent) to help tide them over.
Fionnuala Allen, a second year Nutrition student at Manchester Metropolitan University, said although she enjoyed university, the experience had been marred significantly by stress caused by her finances.
"I receive the maintenance loan and work around 30 hours a month but most of my money goes to rent, food and utilities," she said.
"My maintenance loan runs out really quickly and my job is a zero-hours contract, so I can only work when there are shifts available.
"I regularly go into my student overdraft to get by, and in the past I've had to borrow money from my dad. Before Christmas I had to ask my estate agent if they were OK with me paying my rent a month late.
"My housemates and I were also on a diet of rice and peas for a week because it's cheap and you can buy it in bulk.
Student debt worries causing depression and alcohol dependency
"People assume students spend their money on nights out, but I regularly have to choose not to go out, so I can buy food. I've also had to miss classes and delay assignments when shifts become available and I have to take them when I can. It's really stressful constantly thinking about money when I should be focusing on my studies."
The total student debt owed in the UK is currently estimated at £71bn, with students in England leaving university with the highest average debt in the English-speaking world, a study revealed last year.
This month the Government began controversial plans to sell off billions of pounds worth of student debt to private loan companies, a move experts warned could lead come at a high cost to taxpayers.
Universities Minister Jo Johnson said there would be no impact on graduates with loans, but union leaders have attacked the decision – with the NUS accusing the Government of pulling an "ugly move" on students.
Ms Clarke added: "The dreadful injustice is that every single day, while students are scrimping and saving, punitive monthly compounding interest is being added to their loans, snowballing them into unmanageable debt – and at a time when students can, literally, do nothing about it.
"While students are suffering from lack of money, extortionate interest charges are still being added to their loans. It is exploitation at best.
"The Government has created this issue and now needs to remedy it with fair financing for students."
Mr Webber said: "The fact that students are taking on further debts such as credit cards, overdrafts and even payday loans to repay the money they already owe, is worrying. Debt can have a devastating effect on people, impacting everything from exam results to relationships with partners, family and friends.
"Banks need to be doing more to assist students in managing their finances responsibly to help them get through university without having to resort to more forms of borrowing.
"As younger generations look for digital solutions to keep on top of their spending and debt repayment levels, banks need to adapt and provide students with the digital tools to improve their relationship with money.
"This will help them keep on top of outgoings and monthly budgets. Greater visibility around spending habits will make people more aware of their bank balance, making it harder for them to go into debt unnecessarily."
Universities Minister Jo Johnson said in response: "Let me be clear: this sale will have no impact on students or graduates, including those whose loans are part of a sale. Any suggestion that this will affect students is incorrect and irresponsible.
"This Government is committed to bringing public finances under control. As part of this we will look to sell assets where value for money to the UK taxpayer is assured.
"Any sale will only proceed once we are satisfied that it represents value for money for the taxpayer."

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 06:01 AM

So what? Stop imposing it then. It makes it a bloody sight harder to get on the housing ladder, etc., if you have to declare a £50000 millstone round your neck, regardless of whether there's the prospect of paying it back. I thought that would make you Tories incandescent. Remind me - what was Maggie's big thing about a property-owning democracy...?

And that isn't even a good reason for not having tuition fees!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 17 - 05:19 AM

Student Debt - 85% of them will never be repaid

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:30 PM

I'm not fussy. Once Mrs Steve's hit the sack of a Saturday night, rocket fuel will do me. Other nights, well I'm not telling you...

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:23 PM

I just had a bottle of beer. (Actually, I prefer it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:17 PM

Mrs Steve and I are no champagne socialists but we've been celebrating Jeremy's achievement with a glass of fizz tonight. It's Cremant de Jura Chardonnay 2014 from Aldi. It's £7.99, which is three quid over our usual ceiling prosecco price, but, dammit, Jezz is worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:00 PM

"Next time Labour won't be tearing itself apart in the run-up."
Probably the best thing to come out of this election.
Nobody can claim that alternative policies can't win elections and Corbyn's approach has proved a force to be reckoned with
Still time to claim that Labour has been infiltrated by Satanists or Flat Earthists I suppose - you can't keep a good smear down.
I suppose everybody is now aware that Mayfly's two advisers have now been forced to fall on their swords!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:40 PM

Mr Barwell does appear to have more humanity than most of his Tory colleagues:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/refugees-welcome-mp-praises-graffiti-near-scene-of-vicious-asylum-seeker-attack-a3505376.html

We can but hope it's catching.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:11 PM

It'd be good to have a chance to finish off the job started with this election. Next time Labour won't be tearing itself apart in the run-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 05:40 PM

its a bloody drag - having to have another election before long

i hate all the rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 03:35 PM

Oh, and of course it replaced previous con-servative undertakings to cap care fees.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 03:33 PM

The point about the dementia tax is that it would have aggregated house values with assets far more widely than was previously the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 03:24 PM

Fantastic news for Croydon that the Tory lost his seat? I'd certainly think so. Congratulations.

I rather liked that Book of Jeremy.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 03:05 PM

"Jim dear boy, what you are describing is a dinosaur living in the age of "industrial development","
Please don't attempt t talk down to me or anybody - you will never be tall enough
The working class most certainly have not "left the building"
The fact that your people have done away with employment for many doesn't mean that those who have no other way of making a living have disappeared into a puff of smoke
You want to plump for unity - go look at the rapidly increasinbg gap between those who have and those who haven't - that's where you will find your working classes
Do away with that gap and you will have unity - but that will never happen while the state is run by the privileged.
You are the only one to have mentioned "civil war" - can't remember anyvbody else doing so.
It stands neatly beside you describing criticism of the establishment as "sedition" and seeking to censor it.
If you can't be arsed to either describe or even understand what you are talking about, I suggest you take the advice I was once given by a strapping young woman and "come back when you've got hairs on it".
You appear to have picked up all of your mentor, Teribus's manarisims of bullying and luster so your postings don't even have the merit of originality.
Sheesh - where do they find these people!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 02:15 PM

If "the liberal left would knife Jeremy immediately", how would that be a problem for Theresa, aken? It might even take some of the heat off her. And of course he is well used to being knifed by fellow members.

I wasn't saying such an understanding between the parties would actually happen, but that inviting it is a very obvious move for Theresa May, or any replacement Tory leader who gets thrown up by them in the next few days. Whether it came to something, or came to nothing, either way it would tend to help her (or her replacement).

We know of course from the whole business of this election that Theresa May is in some ways remarkably arrogant and obtuse, in common with her predecessor in regard to his referendum. (Both in setting it in motion, and it not laying down ground rules to reduce the risk of it going the wrong way for him, such as a minimum margin of victory, or a requirement that all the countries in the UK needed to agree to a change, or even extending the vote in the referendum in the way that it had been in Scotland for their referendum, in which 16 year-olds and settled tax paying immigrants were able to vote) But you'd think there'd been someone in her entourage who'd played some game more complicated than Snap in their time.
.........
Theresa May's bizarre Downing Street speech announcing that she was ignoring the humiliating election result - which she didn't mention - brought to mind Maggie Thatcher's initial response to the vote by Tory members which she hadn't actually lost. "We will fight on and fight to win". I suspect Theresa May's bid to hold on to power by cosying up with the DUP might have the same kind of lifespan.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 02:09 PM

Congratulations to Gavin Barwell, who lost his Croydon Central Seat, on being appointed the new Chief of Staff to No.10 - well deserved appointment for the most hard working MP of all, fantastic news for Croydon!!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 01:20 PM

This is funny.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 01:09 PM

They should raise the voting age to 40.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 12:41 PM

Jim dear boy, what you are describing is a dinosaur living in the age of "industrial development", the working class have left the building, they are no longer a political force, society has moved on ...or backward.

There is no left and right in political terms, do you not observe voting patterns.....the electorate is no longer informed by reading Marks or Keynes, but by watching chat shows and daytime television.
Society is becoming dumber by the day and not by accident.

Political change can only be achieved through unity, while we are engaged in political civil war nothing will change.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 12:09 PM

I'm no fan of Nicola Sturgeon but have generally seen her as a slick and shrewd political operator (that isn't necessarily intended as a compliment). I'm surprised that she screwed up in this campaign. The whole point of her party is to fight for greater, or total, independence for Scotland. Putting that on the back burner was a grievous blunder. If I lived in Scotland I'd vote for independence every time. Being scared of frightening the horses is spot-on. She needs to get her guns a-blazing again.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 12:06 PM

"No, I am referring to the "liberal" left....you know who you are."
No - you told us that your "liberals were "fascists" a contradiction in terms.
You got up on your chair whe you were described for what you are claiming we have no idea what your politics are, yet you feel free to tell us what ours are.
I am a socialist who believes in public ownership and workers democracy - everything which you have described as "liberal - aka fascist"
You claim you don't have to be "left" to be socialist yet every definition of the term contradicts that
Apart from KKK Coulter's and Trumpist literature, can you point us to the source of your definition or is it just "one you prepared earlier?
The longer you continue with this the more you confirm yourself a National Socialist, which has nothing to do with true socialist ideology.
Yu behaviour really is no more than trollism at its most extreme
"a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
synonyms:        leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism; More
policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
synonyms: leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism; More - (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism."
There you go - I've shown you mine, now you show me yours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 11:50 AM

No, I am referring to the "liberal" left....you know who you are.
The ones who banned the word socialism from the Labour dictionary.
The ones you have supported staunchly for the last decade.

Actually the result suits Jeremy very well a rise in standing amongst his supporters without having to put his head on the block and a chance to educate the young on the mysteries of socialism.

Pity they are not going to like the real thing very much, I reckon another couple of generations before socialism is found to be a necessity.