BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 09:54 AM

Similarly I would suggest you wait a few weeks before proclaiming that Jeremy has changed UK politics forever.
I seriously doubt that he will be that effective in whatever it is he tries to do.

As for Theresa may, she is not "my woman". I support the Conservative Party, but that does not mean that I automatically accept that the current leader is best suited to the job. I would have much preferred to see a reasonable contest for the position.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:06 AM

Shaw, Corbyn bribed his way to obtain the support he needed to get what he achieved and obtained his 40.2% of the votes cast and came second - Blair won his election with 40.7%. Tell me again how far off getting an overall majority Labour are at the moment?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:07 AM

You'll get one, though whether it'll be reasonable is a moot point. The knives are out. Yes, politics has changed forever. The establishment is under the hatchet. Anyone thinking that the next five years will be Tory business-as-usual is in cloud cuckoo land.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:10 AM

Well I was one of the half-million new members who signed up having been enthused by Jeremy, and nobody bribed any of us. You're making things up as you go along.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:18 AM

Well I was one of the half-million new members who signed up having been enthused by Jeremy, and nobody bribed any of us.

No, but what ever attracted all those new members did not attract voters, as witness the recent by-elections and local elections which were disastrous for Labour. Their vote fell heavily while the Tories' increased sharply.

The change in fortune is very recent.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:22 AM

And to what do you ascribe that? The nice Daily Mail?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 10:28 AM

No.
I ascribe it to a disastrous Tory campaign and manifesto, a good performance by Corbyn, and unaffordable bribes that would mostly benefit the well off.
Students are mostly middle class, and only those who became wealthy ever had to pay their fees anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 12:29 PM

Wealthy? You start repaying fees when you earn above £21000. The AVERAGE full-time wage in this country is £27600. What planet are you on, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 01:13 PM

So - Corbyn "bribed the electorate - from, who else - the usual suspects
Not only is this suggestion totally expected from teh lickspittle right but is shows utter contempt of the electorate
Corbyn became Labour leader by offering an alternative to New Labour's Tory Party lookalike
Responsible commentators throughout the day have put down the Labour vote to support from young people.   
Maggie the Mayfly (the insect with the shortest lifespan of any creature - hopefully repeated in her political career) has truely shot herself in the foot with her contempt for British people in first trying to reduce essential pension safeguards, then believing they would fall for her screeching u-turn - what a wonderful result
Just wait till we get Blustering Boris as P.M.
The Tory reliance on support from the D.U.P - a bunch of sectarian bigots up to their eyes in their own internal scandals will be a joy to behold
Their leadership will now have to sell a Brexit which is set fair to undermining the Northern Ireland economy and the possibility of a hard border to their own membership in order to give Maggie May the support she needs
Wonder if it will be possible to sell tickets to this Westminster farce!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 01:15 PM

"Students are mostly middle class, and only those who became wealthy ever had to pay their fees anyway."

You don't what you're talking about. Ridiculous and ignorant comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 01:27 PM

Heck, so all poor people should be excluded from education because they or their families might not be able to pay?

Here's the rub. I know students in HE that leave uni with a phenomenal amount of debt, and I mean scary. These kids might have done an undergrad, masters and a doctorate and end up with such a scary amount owning I have no idea how they sleep at night. They can't afford homes, they have to travel to work and the pay in academia is not as good as many assume and by the time you've got to institutions such as museums it's laughable.

We should not have to pay for our children's education, end of. Most of you old white men had free education anyway, so show some sympathy and respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: MikeL2
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 03:30 PM

hI

There will be huge wailing and gnashing of teeth in the Conservative
Party to try to find out what went wrong.

Well I am not a politician
but I can give them a few leads.

1. They should find someone who knows how to create a workable Manifesto. This one was a total joke.

2. They were so complacent and certain that they would just walk in that they did not prepare properly.

3, Know your customers. They did not canvas well and ignored finding out what people really wanted.

It was obvious to me that there were problems behind the scenes. Where were all their "big guns" ?? eg Johnson, Hunt ,Amber Rudd etc etc ???
May looked flummoxed and lost with no-one to help her.

I live in Cheshire where there were 5 vulnerable constituencies which included mine. We saw nothing of any Tory campaigners. .a couple of useless leaflets. All 5 fell to the Labour Party.

Corbyn and his team did a great job of telling people who they were, what they were offering and identifying potential voters.

We know the rest.

The tories are in panic.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 03:35 PM

What went wrong?
The tories said if you need a few weeks care when you die, we'll nick your house off you.
This did not go down well. Even with the old gits who vote for them.
Basically they did everything short of instructing their candidates to piss through each letterbox.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 04:19 PM

See that none of you have ever actually looked into the farce of student loans for tuition fees beyond a casual glance.

Interest starts accumulating the day you take out the loan.

You only start to repay the loan IF your yearly earnings exceed £21,000 and the amount presented as a percentage of your earnings is stipulated. If on graduation you disappear overseas to work you cannot be compelled to repay a penny.

As you progress in your career and your salary rises your contributions go up in regulated steps. If you, for whatever reason become unemployed your payments are stopped.

After 30 years the debt is written off. Someone starting out at £21,000 who stays in work and through promotions receives increases in salary ultimately earning £85,000 will only pay off about a half of his/her Student loan.

Big Al - "The tories said if you need a few weeks care when you die, we'll nick your house off you."

The present system of payment has a threshold limit of £23,500. If you require residential care you have to sell off your assets including the home you own until you have dropped to £23,500 - then and only then will the state step in to help. The Tories proposed the opposite - a four-fold increase in the threshold sum that an individual could keep and assets only have to be realised AFTER you are dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 05:30 PM

Whose dups are these, whose dups are these? They are old John Potts', you can tell 'em by the spots, and I found them in the vicarage garden

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 05:32 PM

Keith says:

"Students are mostly middle class..."

What does this even mean? If you mean their background, every single university has a widening access programme, HEFCE insists they do and it is funded. Students from low income families have access to a range of bursaries. Lack of family money should not be, and is not, a barrier to university entry. Or do you mean their outcomes? People with degrees have access to jobs which you might describe as middle class, but this is really a tautology. They have access to jobs which require learning.

Or is it a deep-rooted anti-intellectualism amongst some communities? We do see these attitudes, parents who are fearful that their children might achieve more than they have. I would not call it a class thing though, but there is a glorification of ignorance, promoted by some of the tabloid press, that you just don't get in mainland Europe. And you most definitely don't get it in Asia or in asian communities in other countries.

Whilst we say that most students are middle class, we are writing off a fair fraction of our potential. Educating our young people is of value to the whole country, not just to those receiving the education.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 06:10 PM

David, expecting The Professor to have even a remote connection to reality has been proven over and over again to be a lost cause.

Save yourself the aggravation, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 06:27 PM

My dad used to call it the cult of the philistine. Thanks for the great post, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 08:08 PM

"I've said it before and I'll say it again- Democracy just doesn't work!"

Kent Brockman from The Simpsons

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 08:12 PM

"See that none of you have ever actually looked into the farce of student loans for tuition fees beyond a casual glance."
And you, in contrast, have gone into it in depth, no doubt
The Tories proposed the opposite - a four-fold increase in the threshold sum that an individual could keep and assets only have to be realised AFTER you are dead.
There are actually two minimums at which you have to start paying back a student loan
£17,775 for Plan 1
£21,000 for Plan 2
The option yuo opt for decides your monthly payments
Far from the "bleeding heart" image of the government's attitued to student oans, this is THEIR ACTUAL POSITION AND THE ENSUING HARDSHIP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 17 - 09:45 PM

I'd been insisting to everyone I met who was predicting disaster that the polls predicting a Tory landslide weren't allowing for the possibility of a surge of young and other non-voters, enthused by Jeremy's storming campaign; and by people who, for virtually the first time had been given a chance to get a picture of the real person who'd been chosen to lead the Labour Party by the overwhelming majority of the members. Instead of the ridiculous and malevolent caricature painted by the gutter press (with the help of a resentful chorus of Westminster bubble politicos).

Happy indeed to have my optimism confirmed. It's fun seeing the antics of some of the sneerers and snipers as they try to retrofit their analyses.

And Nigel, if you didn't see the consensus of predictions that Corbyn's leadership of Labour was bound to cause a landslide defeat, right across the media, you can't have been paying that media much attention, over the last few weeks or indeed to last couple of years. Not that I'd criticise that, because most of what you missed has been rubbish, music is a far better way to spend time. Here is a link to a Guardian story from the start of the campaign, just as a very mild example. Conservatives on course for landslide

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 03:34 AM

"There are actually two minimums at which you have to start paying back a student loan
£17,775 for Plan 1
£21,000 for Plan 2
The option yuo opt for decides your monthly payments"

From "Jom the infallible"

Ehmmm no Jom, once again you have read something and failed to understand it:

£17,775 for Plan 1 only applies to "English and Welsh students who started BEFORE 1 September 2012, all Scottish and Northern Irish students. You start repaying when you earn over £17,775. This amount changes on 6 April every year." Source - https://www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan

£21,000 for Plan 2 applies to "English and Welsh students who started ON OR AFTER 1 September 2012. You start repaying when you earn over £21,000." Source - https://www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan

Tell me what the date is Jom and then tell me which Plan is now in operation - No OPT about it.

On Plan 1 or Plan 2 if you are earning between £32,000 and £35,000 per year your monthly repayments amount to the equivalent of a good meal for two in a restaurant.

After 30 years the debt is written off.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 04:35 AM

"From "Jom the infallible"
Havin een a strong supporter of this crowd of cowboys from day one, you are hardly in the position to tl down to people - try to remember your place in the pecking order, there's a good chap!
You have the situation as given by the government - they might be wrong of course, you tend to adopt that attitude to information that doesn't fit.
Your account was a simplistic distortion of the actual situation as it applies to those unable to afford to pay for their education
The fact that you choose to ignore the result of the policy, as described in my link, is confirmation that you are fully aware of the situation - blustering your way past facts seems to be your way of doing things - your three "Joms" confirms it even further.
More facts to ignore
Education in britain most expensive in the world
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/12013303/University-students-in-England-pay-the-highest-tuition-fees-in-the-world.html
NO LONGER A PLACE FOR THE POOR
"good meal for two in a restaurant."
REPAYMENT LOAN CALCULATOR
When will you "Let them eat cake" gang get your head around the fact that there are millions in Britain who cannot afford to eat out, but many of those struggle to FEED THEIR FAMILIES on a day-to-day basis.
It really is time your lot got a grip of what life is like for many under Toryism
"Good meal for two" - you couldn't make it up!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 05:20 AM

Negotiations between the UP and the Tories have hit their first speed-bump - over Same-Sex marriage
You couldn't make that one up either!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 05:41 AM

I think the problem is that the voting public just do not like to be told the truth.

Mr Corbyn's much vaunted manifesto was simply a huge "feel good wish list" which he never expected to have to put into practice.

As someone who is in the trap of self funding personal care for a family member, I can assure all here that Teribus is 100% correct in his evaluation of the system.
Mrs May's proposed scheme is far superior to the one in operation here in Scotland which is nominally "free"
ONLY IF YOUR COMBINED ASSETS including your house, amount to under £20000. This system is a charter for people who are financially irresponsible.....or even those who avoid self financing by transferring their houses and funds to others.....as bad as tax avoidance?

Mrs May's biggest mistake was in talking about the subject at all, the public especially the young uninformed public do not like hearing disturbing things.....they have become media consuming automatons living in a show biz fairyland and completely unable to absorb facts and figures, especially facts and figures which suggest that the tooth fairy does not exist.

To be fair in our youth we all thought we could change the world into a good place where everything would be sorted out by the power of love.   The youth of today have no such excuse the future is staring them in the face and the "god cop" "bad cop" ideology of 21st century politics has been exposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 05:49 AM

Do tell us more about that fairyland. After all, you should know: you've been out with the denizens thereof for an awfully long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:06 AM

As someeone who makes their living based on facts and figures, it is worth reminding ourselves that it is easy to use them to avoid thinking. Whether the tuition fees promise is affordable or not is good example. It is easy to look at the costs, the taxation or borrowing required to pay for it and come to a conclusion for or against.

And that represents a minute proportiom of the implications of the policy. Even restricting ourselves to the economics - and i would suggest the social implications are aa important - you have to remember such things are more like cutting a strand in a spiders web: the change has repercussions thoughout the entire system. Anyone who argues the whole thing just looking at the single strand is not thinking adequately.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:07 AM

Is that all you have to contribute Steve?

Joe has made a point about posts which add nothing to discussion, the situation in UK politics at the moment is not funny and there is no point in trying to obscure the truth.
We have been living beyond our means for decades and at last we are being forced to face up to that reality.
Unfortunately our people have been so politically and socially subverted that few have the guts to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:14 AM

Yes I understand that "D", but our finances are finite; how do we decide which policy is the most worthy, who must be left in limbo?
How does it all relate to the mantra of "equality"?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:22 AM

"and i would suggest the social implications are aa important "
No argument there - an under-educated population is a total waste of human resources and one sure way of of proliferating that waste is to only educate those who can afford it.
"Is that all you have to contribute Steve?"
Sice when have you been appointed an adjudicator with the power to decide what is and is not relevant?

Your hit-'n-run contributions add nothing but aggression to these discussions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:27 AM

I've contributed a hundred times more discussion to these threads than you. In terms of making reasonably coherent points, that hundred zooms upwards to infinity. That isn't me bragging. That's the point that your arguments are incoherent, confused, bigoted and nonsensical. You're the socialist who supports Farage, Trump and Theresa May (you told us you were voting for her, remember?), the socialist who hates gay people and who would discriminate against them, the socialist xenophobe. And you expect people to try to engage in reasonable argument with you. You're the bloke in the session that finds himself playing on his own (I had to refrain from saying playing with yourself) because everyone else has sneaked off to a different pub without telling him.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:33 AM

Many other members of all political persuasions find what I have to say interesting Steve, I cannot be held responsible for your lack of comprehension.
You are certainly too abusive and personal to make much impact on any debate or discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:43 AM

"Our resources are finite"

Never get a mathematician started on the difference between finite and limited. :)

I agree there are always choices to be made. But very often people are unaware of when they are making the choice. For example staying on this example I invite people to reflect on the links between student fees and the building industries. So do your best to understand the choices and then make them. The God of the Balance Sheet is not always the best guide.



Let me give an example of where we have fallen into the habit of not thinking about student fees. We see it as either the tax payer pays or the student pays and the crux of the argument is who pays what share.

But if you go back to the Browne report that led to the introduction of fees it discussed three funders, not two. It is a long time since I read it but I vaguely remember it being section 7.4.something. It pointed out that businesses are significant beneficiaries so need to pay a share. Admittedly it then said they do this though salaries so there is no need to discuss it further. But that is entirely a *political* decision, not an economic one. People could argue whether it is right or wrong but through laziness many have forgotten it is even a question.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:47 AM

Ake says:

"Yes I understand that "D", but our finances are finite..."

That is at best arguable, and at worst clearly untrue, in a country with its own currency. Our resources are finite, but our finances are not. Look up Modern Monetary Theory. Ok, it has its detractors, including Krugman as well as some Austrian school economists, but is quite clear that the size of the money supply is a political decision, not a hard limit.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 06:48 AM

Name these multitudinous allies of yours, akenaton. I haven't detected a single one so far who I'd let buy me a pint.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:07 AM

Well David, I have never agreed with the workings of the Capitalist economic system especially the practice of "quantitative easing", so perhaps we have different perspectives here.
The point I was making to "D" that although long term thinking and planning are important in the construction of political policies, they do not fit in well with the requirements of the capitalist economic system or democracy as we have come to understand it.
What I refer to as the "good cop" "bad cop" political mentality requires quick changes in political policies, regardless of their affordability or effectiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:08 AM

I suppose that the received wisdom about tuition fees is that free higher education became unsustainable once it underwent a pretty explosive expansion. Well I don't agree with that. If investing in our young people is a worthwhile thing then the country should pay.

I have mixed feelings about the funding of care for the elderly. I've never thought it right that some lucky buggers can inherit fortunes while others get nowt, nothing to do with merit. So does that mean that your assets should indeed be used to fund your care? All of 'em? Some, and, if some, what proportion? Is it fair that someone who's unfortunate enough to suffer many years of dementia should use up their assets to pay for care whereas it doesn't cost you a penny if you suddenly drop dead? What about the families bearing the burden of their relative suffering long-term illness - should that be recognised when considering the extent of protection of assets? Should we all pay extra tax, based on ability to pay, into a compulsory fund that pays for all care for the elderly? The socialist bit of me thinks that that would be fair. I don't envy politicians who have to grapple with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:08 AM

the situation in UK politics at the moment is not funny

It is actually, aken. That doesn't mean it's not also very worrying and serious. It's black humour, but extremely funny.

As the saying goes - "If you don't laugh you'd cry".    We make jokes about "Keep Calm and Carry On", but that's what you have to do in troubled times. Making jokes about it is part of doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:18 AM

You make a good point Mr McGrath, but Steve's quip had little to do with the political situation and more about being snide and abusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:22 AM

Another hurdle which must arise with DUP negotiations is actually understanding what the hell they are saying!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:26 AM

Things get even weirder:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/09/ruth-davidson-planning-scottish-tory-breakaway-challenges-theresa/

Scottish Tory leader (openly lesbian) wins substantial gains for her party by disregarding the instructions of the UK party's leader, while the UK leader's strategy sends her party down the toilet to such an extent that there would be no possibility of it holding power without those Scottish gains.

So, the UK party goes into a coalition with a bunch of gun-toting fundie fascists who want to ban gay marriage. (Davidson isn't married yet but expects to be in the near future).

Scottish Tories (whose election platform was largely about opposing independence) then contemplate splitting their party off to become a separate organization...

In Jerry Springer's position I'd offer to host the next Tory Party conference.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:41 AM

One thing is, there's no way the Zombie May Administration will be able to bring back legal fox hunting.

And there's a good few other things that she would find it hard for her to hold on to. The bedroom tax perhaps. Or the regime of vicious "sanctions" on people on benefits.   A motion to reverse those could have a very good chance of succeeding in Parliament? I suspect in fact she might make out she wanted to get rid of those all along, and even preempt any such motion by doing it herself.

And her ability to go too far along the road of slashing our human rights should be shackled considerably.

I'm pretty certain there'll be a fresh election soon, very likely before Christmas. And maybe next time the Labour Party won't be tearing itself to bits in the run-up. I don't see much mileage in carrying on with the Corbyn-must-go campaign now. Reselecting MPa who persisted in that would now I suspect be seen as common sense rather than as extremism.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 07:49 AM

The only problem with your proposition jack, is that many of the new Tory constituencies in Scotland are pro Brexit......the vote was not down to Miss Davidson's charisma, but rather a wish to see Brexit carried through successfully. In the same manner as I a lifelong socialist voted Conservative for the first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:24 AM

THeresa May has been served with an ultimatum by her party that if she does not sack her two advisors b the end of the week-end she will face a leadership challenge
They are being held totally responsible for the cock-up and also for creating a "toxic and devisive atmosphere within Number Ten
While they appear to be the party's main sacrificial lambs, 'May or May Not' has been accused by her MPs of refusing to accept any blame whatever
Moderate Consevatives are drawing a line under how far they are prepared to go with U.D.P. dinosaurs regarding their archaic attitudes on Same-Sex marriage and pregnancy termination
Lovely cartoon comment in the Irish Times this morning - one disembodied voice asks "What will you get out of it?" (the deal) and another replies "They'll start teaching Creationism in English Schools"
Must start selling the tickets to this circus!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:25 AM

Are you sure of that, ake? You can get all the EU referendum results as a CSV download and, picking Angus as just an example because it had high profile, there were 32747 voted to remain and 26511 to leave. Hardly pro-Brexit.   Similarly Stirling had 33112
to remain and 15787 to leave. I haven't looked at any others.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 08:45 AM

You may be right "D"....I was just thinking of the fishing and farming communities without checking the stats, though I'm sure it wasn't Miss Davidson's charisma. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 10:24 AM

If Theresa May had the least shred of tactics or strategy, she'd have set aside the notion of cosying up to the DUP, and putting the while peace settlement at risk, and invited Jeremy Corbyn to talk about some kind of arrangement for the time being.

Even if he refused, that would have strengthened her by reinforcing her claim to be a one-nation Tory. If he accepted that would have meant she could make a play of having been sincere in that, by actually following through on it. Then they could talk about which bits of her ambitions could be ditched, and whether there were reforms they could actually agree on.

After all, she has indicated she admires Churchill, and he has indicated he greatly respects Attlee, and they did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 11:25 AM

An excellent idea Mr McGrath, but unfortunately too dangerous for both I think.

The "liberals would knife Jeremy immediately...they are just waiting their chance.
Theresa(note the spelling)would never survive consorting with "terrorist sympathisers"...the right wing would go bananas.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 11:36 AM

Some good points here from Craig Murray, about strategy for the SNP.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/06/snp-must-sell-radical-vision-not-just-managerial-competence/

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 17 - 11:37 AM

"The "liberals would knife Jeremy immediately."
If you are referring to the left as yo u usually are, all the attacks on Crbyn have come from the Blairite right and from those opposing BDS
The liberasls (aka Left) helped put Corbyn where he is and supported him against the barrage of smears by the right - those same "liberals" (left) have just justified his being there in Thursdays election
Accusing the "liberals" left) of wanting to knife him is beneath contempt -   that is the desire of extremist righties like yourself
Jim Carroll