BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:50 AM

I fear that statement just shows that you are not nearly as clever as you think you are. Most of the misleading statements made in every election must go right over your pretty little head.

More personal nastiness eh, Keith?

Diffe...

Oh, you know how it goes.

I think you will find however that I have never claimed to be any more clever than anyone else. In fact I have always made a point of saying that I know very little and the older I get the more I realise how little I know. Maybe I was stupid to not believe that all the money saved by Brexit would go to the NHS or that it would be of great benefit to everyone. Only time will tell and by then it will be too late.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:39 AM

Dave,
I have never come across an election where as many misleading statements were made as in the referendum campaign so you are not comparing like with like.

Really!
I fear that statement just shows that you are not nearly as clever as you think you are. Most of the misleading statements made in every election must go right over your pretty little head.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:23 AM

Good article in The New European

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:31 AM

Yes please, Keith! Stop having any more referendums as soon as possible :-) I have never come across an election where as many misleading statements were made as in the referendum campaign so you are not comparing like with like.

You carry on taking Kevin's remark literally, Teribus, and I will carry on treating it as I am sure it was intended.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:41 AM

Dave,
So, you believe the campaign on both sides was nothing but truthful

Another referendum or election campaign would be just the same, so we had better stop having them and just let clever people like you choose how we are governed.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:38 AM

Tell me Gnome what does "customary" mean in your universe? I know what it means in plain simple English. And "Best out of three" is not, and never has been, used to decide any election, referendum or plebiscite issue in history so the following statement is patently idiotic and a complete and utter load of bollocks to boot:

"Best of three is the customary way to settle things like that" - McGrath of Harlow - 19 Jun 17 - 06:02 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:24 AM

Do you really think that only you are clever enough to cope with an adversarial system

Of course not. Just like I do not think that I have never been mugged because I am clever enough to avoid it. You are blaming the victims while I am blaming the muggers.

You really are elitist.

Now who is getting personal and nasty? :-)

Teribus - It is blatantly obvious to anyone else that Kevin's 'best out of three' was not intended to be a solution to the current argument.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:59 AM

Dave,
So, you believe the campaign on both sides was nothing but truthful and that the media did not try to sway the result the way their foreign owners wanted them to?
Unbelievable.

You are!
Every election campaign and every jury trial is like that.

Each side has the opportunity to challenge the claims of the other side, and the electorate are quite capable of weighing the claims and counter claims.

Do you really think that only you are clever enough to cope with an adversarial system, and us ordinary poor dears are just hopelessly gullible and confused.
You really are elitist.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:46 AM

OK Kevin here is the full exchange:

1: What Akenaton said:
akenaton - 19 Jun 17 - 04:42 PM

How many referendums do you want Mr McGrath...to suggest that we keep holding them until the result that you want turns up is undemocratic in the extreme and a serious case of political manipulation.

2: Here is what YOU said in reply:
McGrath of Harlow - 19 Jun 17 - 06:02 PM

Best of three is the customary way to settle things like that, aken. Seems a reasonable way to go.

Customary: usual · traditional · normal · conventional · familiar · accepted · prevailing · routine · fixed · set · established · confirmed · everyday · ordinary · common · stock · well worn · time-honoured.

3: You were then asked by me:
Teribus - 19 Jun 17 - 06:41 PM

"Best of three is the customary way to settle things like that"

Really Kevin? Where and when has that happened then?? An actual real life example would be good start, after all we have only held three nation wide referendums - in all we only got one crack at it.

By the way Kevin in the cases you mentioned in Denmark and in Ireland - their Governments were bullied into holding the second referendums by the EU Commission and the only thing that changed was the question asked on the ballot paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:42 AM

Especially as the referendum was skewed in favour of a permanent exit (no matter what Teribus says - any reapplication to join, extremely unlikely in any case, would result in our enduring far worse terms than now and would take donkeys' years to bring about) as opposed to what would have been a thoroughly reversible (you bet!) remain decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 10:14 PM

Best of three hasn't been tried in regard to referendums, and I didn't actually say it had been. In both cases where there was a repeat referendum on EU membership, in Ireland and Denmark (in both cases after further negotiation had produced responses aimed at meeting some of the reasons people were deemed to have voted against), the second vote went the other way, and there was no third vote.

Given the strength of feeling shown by Brexiters I think it would be reasonable, in the event that a second vote went for staying in the EU, to allow a third vote to decide. In the event that the second vote was for leaving, it would be reasonable to accept that. And the same would apply to Brexiters if the third vote went against them.

But of course this isn't going to happen, and I haven't been arguing for it to happen. But the fact that it is not going to happen does not indicate a respect of democratic process, but in some ways an evasion of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 06:18 PM

Reread your own post of 6.41 pm on 19 June, Teribus. It contains a clear-as-a-bell misunderstanding of what Kevin said. We are all capable of misunderstanding, but you compounded your error by calling Kevin's quite factual statement "idiotic." You've done a fair bit of blustering ever since, intended to cover up your error, but you have failed to recant, which is what you clearly should have done. And no, I won't let it drop. Not until you stop attacking reasonable people on the back of a stupid error on your part.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:24 PM

DARK MONEY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:19 PM

I do not believe the electorate to be ill informed and manipulated.

So, you believe the campaign on both sides was nothing but truthful and that the media did not try to sway the result the way their foreign owners wanted them to?

Unbelievable.

I will just start and you can fill in the rest

Dif...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 01:42 PM

Ehmmm Shaw I didn't misread anything - no get it into your thick head once and for all - Votes that are not cast DO NOT COUNT They are irrelevant - So to draw ones attention to the fact that 12.9 million of the electorate didn't vote and that there was only a 1.27 million more votes for leaving rather than remaining is rather idiotic.

By the way Kevin where are the examples of the norm being "best out of three" that you mentioned?? He's gone awfully quiet on that - Shaw as our "serial gobshite" have you anything to say on the veracity of that statement of MGOH's - you seem to have something to say everything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 12:49 PM

Of course they can change their mind Steve, or we would always have the same government.

But, what has changed about the EU?
Has it become a better or more successful organisation since last year?
I think it has got even worse, and polls suggest that more want to leave now than they did last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 12:43 PM

Er, Teribus, your 03.05 am post and your subsequent ironic one calling for us to cut the spin, both aggressively stated as ever, were attempts to deflect from the uncomfortable fact that you misread Kevin's post about the majority being far smaller than the number of non-voters. I don't care what you incorrectly think about those millions of non-voters (we've been there and I'm not going over that again), but I do care about your bad habit of missing the point, failing to acknowledge it then getting insulting about it. There was nothing idiotic in what he said, nothing. Maybe just something you didn't happen agree with.   

And Keith:

"That is your opinion of the British voter.
Presumably they can not be left to choose their own government either.
Democracy must go.
Only people like you should have a say."

Yes they can choose their government. They can also change their mind about the government they choose. What part of this business about democracy allowing you to change your mind are you not understanding, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 11:08 AM

Yes I did. But I do not blame the victims, I blame the perpetrators. Who do you blame?

I do not believe the electorate to be ill informed and manipulated.
Not even if I get outvoted by them, like you have been.
So, no blame from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 08:48 AM

It is very easy to appreciate why those who agree with vote are opposed to a further vote. That would have applied whichever way the vote went. In both cases that would have been a political decision, and I imagine it might have been claimed that a further vote would be a rejection of democracy.

And in both cases that claim would have been unsustainable. An essential aspect of democracy is the principle that people have a right to change their minds.

And could I urge anybody posting in his thread to cut out the insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 07:52 AM

Your stated opinion was the voters are ill informed and manipulated.

Yes I did. But I do not blame the victims, I blame the perpetrators. Who do you blame?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 07:43 AM

" The only reason the "professional politicians" wanted to remain was so that they would have access to a far better gravy-train to wedge their snouts in to round off their glorious careers - The Kinnocks are a prime example."......~:0)    Hee hee!

Absolutely 100% correct Teribus, couldn't of put it better meself!

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 07:17 AM

"crisis, what crisis?"
Same thing Keith
If the press consistently slants the news to suit its proprietors as it invariably does, we end up being ill informed and manipulated.
If we decide to take the tiny handful of newpapes (Guardian and Indi being reasonable examples - the leftie press according to you and yours) twots like you acccuse us of being "ill informed and manipulated."
Catch 22 writ large
A feer press is a distant dream reserved for a truly democratic future
HOW the MANIPULATED MEDIA WORKS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 06:46 AM

No it isn't. It is my opinion of the shitty media and the misleading claims of politicians.

No it wasn't.
Your stated opinion was the voters are ill informed and manipulated.

I think that you are being elitist and undemocratic.
I think that you are ill informed and manipulated.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 06:44 AM

If the politicians sought to mislead Gnome then they shouldn't be trusted to do anything. Just the fact that our "professional politicians" (i.e. professional in as much as they have never held down a real job in their lives) were largely for staying in the EU was a good enough indication that the right course of action was to Leave. Especially as the only reason the "professional politicians" wanted to remain was so that they would have access to a far better gravy-train to wedge their snouts in to round off their glorious careers - The Kinnocks are a prime example.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 06:09 AM

That is your opinion of the British voter.

No it isn't. It is my opinion of the shitty media and the misleading claims of politicians.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 05:56 AM

Cut away all the spin - you have a referendum - you either vote or you don't - only the votes cast are the ones that matter and affect what decision is made. The views of those who do not vote have no relevance - their choice to disenfranchise themselves, nobody physically prevented them from voting. The margin of the victory in a democracy is also irrelevant a majority is a majority in this particular case it was roughly 52% voted leave 48% voted remain - stop moaning, live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 05:43 AM

I try not to get dragged into specious arguments so will just say

(a) I am well aware of your first point
(b) I understand perfectly well we do not know how those who didn't vote would have voted if it was compulsary, for example
(c) neither of those points have the slightest bearing on what McGrath said.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 05:38 AM

As Steve said, what I said was that the margin of victory was much smaller than the number of non-voters. That is a factual statement. I believe it is also relevant, and that it reinforces the view that a second vote would be reasonable.

While I disagree with those who oppose such a vote, I would never call that "idiotic". It is perfectly reasonable. What does seem unreasonable is the claim that it would be undemocratic to have such a vote, and to present that as a matter of principle rather than as a political decision, in the same way that a decision to have a second vote would have been a political decision.

I believe that Ireland and Denmark, where that political decision was made the other way, have as least as much right to be seen as democratic countries as the United Kingdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:57 AM

I think there may be a case for a minimum educational level to qualify.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:29 AM

The vast majority, on both sides, were ill informed and cynically manipulated.

That is your opinion of the British voter.
Presumably they can not be left to choose their own government either.
Democracy must go.
Only people like you should have a say.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 03:05 AM

Ehmmm DMcG & Shaw the germane points made in that post of mine that you quoted

1: "the ONLY votes that count in any election or referendum are the ones that are cast."

2: Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%) - Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%)

If you wish to drag the members of the electorate who for whatever reason did not vote into the equation - please remember that with equal validity those numbers can be used by both sides:

You claim that only 37.4% of the total electorate voted to leave and that 62.6% did not.

Equally true is the fact that 34.8% of the total electorate voted to remain and 65.2% did not.

I'll stand by what I said the point being made by MGOH is irrelevant and idiotic (Doubt that then red point 1: above AGAIN)

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:36 AM

The number who didn't vote far exceeded the slim majority. That was the point Kevin was making. Do read what people say before you jerk your knee, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 02:09 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus - PM 
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:41 PM 

"The fact that the margin of difference was relatively narrow, and that it was dwarfed by the number of people who had not voted, would have justified that, especially in face of the fact that this was a vote with major constitutional impact, depriving all British citizens of significant rights."

THE EU REFERENDUM: (In a nutshell)

Number of local areas declared: 382/382
Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%)
Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%)
Total Electorate: 46,500,001
***Turnout: 72.2%****
Rejected Ballots: 25,359

With a voter turnout of 72.2% Kevin that means that 27.8% of the electorate did not cast their votes or exercise their right to vote - their choice - the ONLY votes that count in any election or referendum are the ones that are cast.

Now then Kevin:
37.42% of the total electorate voted Leave
27.2% of the total electorate did not vote at all

Would you care to revise your rather idiotic claim: it was dwarfed by the number of people who had not voted

MvGrath can defend himself but he made no such claim. Calling things 'idiotic claims- which werent made is unwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 12:15 AM

Doesn't work Mr McGrath, Steve reckons we need a 60% majority to remain in order to reverse the result?
Additionally after "best of three" it would become "best of five", Seven, Nine.   A referendum is what it says on the tin...a one off for better or worse.
When it came down to the wire, the UK public voted out and out we must go.    A bit of unity in negotiation and less carping by the remainers would assist our cause, anyone would think you people actually want the country to fail?
Get behind the Brexit team and get the best deal possible....if that turns out to be impossible through EU intransigence, we can do it easily on our own.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:41 PM

"The fact that the margin of difference was relatively narrow, and that it was dwarfed by the number of people who had not voted, would have justified that, especially in face of the fact that this was a vote with major constitutional impact, depriving all British citizens of significant rights."

THE EU REFERENDUM: (In a nutshell)

Number of local areas declared: 382/382
Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%)
Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%)
Total Electorate: 46,500,001
***Turnout: 72.2%****
Rejected Ballots: 25,359

With a voter turnout of 72.2% Kevin that means that 27.8% of the electorate did not cast their votes or exercise their right to vote - their choice - the ONLY votes that count in any election or referendum are the ones that are cast.

Now then Kevin:
37.42% of the total electorate voted Leave
27.2% of the total electorate did not vote at all

Would you care to revise your rather idiotic claim: it was dwarfed by the number of people who had not voted

"Best of three is the customary way to settle things like that"

Really Kevin? Where and when has that happened then?? An actual real life example would be good start, after all we have only held three nation wide referendums - in all we only got one crack at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:02 PM

Best of three is the customary way to settle things like that, aken. Seems a reasonable way to go.

As I pointed out, in pretty every other aspect of our lives where it is physically possible, we ensure that we've a chance to change our minds.

And once again I'm not actually calling for a second vote, because it's not going to happen. But I saying that this has to be recognised as a political decision, and that this nonsense about there would be something anti-democratic in having another referendum, or that people calling for it are being undemocratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 05:48 PM

People are allowed to change their minds every five years about the rather fundamental issue of who governs us. In the case of Blunderwoman, at even shorter intervals, at her misguided behest. Democracy is predicated on the ability of people to change their minds. What are you worried about, akenaton? Here's the problem for you brexiteers. You know that you won by a very slim margin. You know that you won on a low turnout of fewer than three-quarters of the electorate. You know that the non-voters far exceeded in numbers your slim majority. You know that the arguments, the posturings and the balance of power have all shifted significantly since the vote to leave. You are scared of losing another vote so you resort to specious claims that we are undemocratic. If there were to be another vote, and remain won, that would be rock solid democratic. Wouldn't it? One more thing. We've already had a second referendum and I didn't hear you complaining. It was held on 23 June last year. The first referendum was held in 1975 and we overwhelmingly voted to stay in. Sure, things changed between 1975 and 2016. But I'd say that things have changed at least as much in the last twelve months. We're supposed to be negotiating but our politicians haven't a bloody clue what they're supposed to be negotiating about. The party in power, who didn't expect to be negotiating at all, are in serious left-right disarray. The EU is hardening against us rapidly, having seen the weakness bestowed on us by the utterly feckless Theresa May. If you can't see that the call for a radical rethink is utterly democratic, then I don't know what I should be calling you. Whatever is, it won't be nice and you'll deserve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 05:05 PM

How many referendums do you want on Scottish independence, ake? Or have you now given up all pretense of being anything but a right wing nut job?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 04:42 PM

How many referendums do you want Mr McGrath...to suggest that we keep holding them until the result that you want turns up is undemocratic in the extreme and a serious case of political manipulation.
what would happen if the same result immerged from the ballot? Or an even closer result?

You seem to have lost your usual grasp of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 01:41 PM

Absolutely spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 01:37 PM

You miss my point. I'm not talking about the decision to hold the referendum.

I'm talking about the decision to present it as undemocratic to hold another referendum to give people a chance to change their minds if they wished, or to confirm their decision.

The fact that the margin of difference was relatively narrow, and that it was dwarfed by the number of people who had not voted, would have justified that, especially in face of the fact that this was a vote with major constitutional impact, depriving all British citizens of significant rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 01:09 PM

The vast majority of those who voted were NOT even members of any political party, they merely stated THEIR personal preference.

The vast majority, on both sides, were ill informed and cynically manipulated. This resulted in a rise in hate crime and the death of a young woman. Pig sticker general should have done what he was paid to do and govern the country rather than gambling that the referendum would have resulted in a remain vote. It is clear that most people were voting against the establishment rather than against the EU.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 12:25 PM

MGOH - I am not in the least bit interested in how you care to dress it up. The following are the facts of the matter.

Gordon Brown - Labour Prime Minister promised the British electorate a referendum on EU membership when the EU Commissioners tried to push through the Treaty of Lisbon that France, The Netherlands and Ireland rejected - it was later introduced in a drastically amended format via the back door, using technicalities that meant it did not have to be unanimously accepted by the Council of Ministers.

This caused unrest and unease in the UK's political parties and press. So in the 2010 General Election David Cameron promised the British electorate a referendum on EU membership. The Conservatives did not win a majority and their Coalition Government partners, the Lib-Dems insisted that the promised referendum was dropped, this caused further division and discontent, the electorate of the UK felt that they had been cheated.

After winning the 2015 General Election David Cameron made good on his promise of a referendum on EU Membership and the Electorate of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland were asked whether they wished to remain in the EU or whether they wanted to leave it - plain and simple - THEY chose to LEAVE.

And those who voted leave Kevin could not have cared a toss about "cynical political decision taken in order to patch up splits in the main parties" - The vast majority of those who voted were NOT even members of any political party, they merely stated THEIR personal preference.

As far as limiting democratic choice goes Kevin, nothing but nothing is more limiting than rule by diktat by the unelected EU Commission.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 11:46 AM

But that is based on a cynical political decision taken in order to patch up splits in the main parties,

If one offered a referendum they all had too because people wanted it.
It did not seem to matter because they were all sure the people would vote to stay.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:30 AM

We will indeed leave, Teribus. But that is based on a cynical political decision taken in order to patch up splits in the main parties, not on a principled committment to democracy. Rather than representing that it represents a choice to limit democratic choice.

Which of course won't stop it going ahead. But be honest about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:24 AM

"The EU provides fantastic benefits for UK citizens. Horizon2020, Erasmus, Single Market, Free Movement. And it provides links to other countries such as France, Germany, Italy, Spain, from which we can learn much." - David Carter(UK)

Correction to the above:

1: Under it's rules Horizon 2020 and Erasmus only provides benefits to some UK Citizens - not all.

2: As far as the single market goes we buy more from them than they do from us so on balance of trade it works out negatively for the UK. This is exacerbated by the restrictions it applies to our trade with the rest of the world - a much larger market than the EU

3: Free Movement that too has it's pros and cons - more EU citizens work in the UK than UK citizens work in the EU.

4: So "France, Germany, Italy, Spain" are the only countries we have something to learn from? What is it they have to teach us? The world has even more to teach us don't you think?

The EU is corrupt, unaccountable, protectionist and introverted. We as a nation are far better off trading with the rest of the world after all we did that quite successfully for a few centuries before we became part of that great con sold to us as a trading partnership - "The Common Market".

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:27 AM

The EU provides fantastic benefits for UK citizens. Horizon2020, Erasmus, Single Market, Free Movement. And it provides links to other countries such as France, Germany, Italy, Spain, from which we can learn much.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 03:56 AM

"live with it."
We also have to live with the fact that Blunderwoman is in the process of making a pact with a party that has
TERRORIST LINKS and creationism, anti abortion and homophobia on their agenda - A great leap forward for mankind
Certainly puts Corbyn's supposed links with the IRA on the shelf
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 03:31 PM

The decision to Leave has been made - live with it.

As for your exclusive club Mr Carter - It certainly is and always has been - a club run for the exclusive benefit of France and Germany - we are better off out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time to choose on June 8th-UK Elections
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 17 - 01:57 PM

We could indeed, and in time I suspect we may well.

It would be a lot easier to give us a chance before we go to decide whether we still wanted to leave or not. We won't, but as I said, that's a political decision based on the need to patch up differences within the parties. My point was, this has nothing to do with the dishonest nonsense about a second vote being in some way anti-democratic.