BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:21 PM

yes you're right there. i'm not popular - not even in our house.

how about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 12:59 PM

Jim,
Not too difficult if you take the statements of his family and friends into consideration.
They put it down to the racist killing of his friend

Please give details, because no UK news agency has carried such a story.

I could only find this, and it was nearly a month old.
"A source close to Abedi's family told AFP on Friday (5/26/2017) that Abedi's Libyan friend was killed after being stabbed by a group of British youths in Manchester in May 2016. The identity of Abedi's friends was not mentioned further."

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:25 PM

This Guardian piece delves deeply into his radicalisation.
It briefly mentions the death of a gang member friend, but no suggestion that it was race related or that it was in any way connected to what he did.
a href="https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/28/salman-abedi-manchester-arena-bomber-radicalisation">https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/28/salman-abedi-manchester-arena-bomber-radicalisation

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:28 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/28/salman-abedi-manchester-arena-bomber-radicalisation

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:30 PM

"Please give details, because no UK news agency has carried such a story."
I have done Keith, with actual quotes - in response to Teribus's claim that the motivation was in response to the defeat of Isis
Please don't direct any questions directly to me again -I really am not interested in your campaign, especially as you are refusing to the salient points of this argument
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 17 - 01:43 PM

Jim,
I have done Keith, with actual quotes

Not true. Please provide now.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 07:15 AM

WHAT THE HELL - MORE FOR YOU TO IGNORE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 07:33 AM

Well then someone should inform the 100 plus Imams and Muslim community leaders who gathered on London Bridge to condemn the terrorists and extremists and pledged to 'root out' the 'menace' of extremism as they launched an action plan to tackle radicalisation within their communities that they have got it all wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 09:39 AM

"that they have got it all wrong."
Nobody has suggested they are - of course terrorists will hide in their own communities
It's the fictionalised claims that the Muslim Communities are riddled with terrorists is what is being challenged.
The aim should be to win the communities to root out the terrorists, bnot make them the enemy within to suit your own agenda
It's somewhat amuning to find you supporting a religious group you have expressed nothing but hatred for in the past
People like you are the problem of what is happening today - the real enemies within
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 11:27 AM

"It's somewhat amuning (amusing??) to find you supporting a religious group you have expressed nothing but hatred for in the past" - Says Jom

Now where and when did bobad express hatred for the religious group you are referring to Jom? Or is this just another one of your careless, throw away, baseless accusations - more Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit".

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 11:42 AM

you really expect JIm to trawl through all of B's posts to prove to you that he hasn't much good to say about muslims.

Teribus - you are too profligate of other people's time. i don't agree with quite a lot of what Jim says on this forum - but he doesn't deserve abuse like that last post.

try to play nice...

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 11:49 AM

Perhaps someone with a more realistic view of the world than bobad would like to apprise us of the meaning of "Muslim community leader."

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 11:58 AM

"you really expect JIm to trawl through all of B's posts to prove to you that he hasn't much good to say about muslims"
No need Al
Bobad put up the largest cut-'n- paste this forum has ever experienced - dredged from some of the most extremist sites on the internet, all setting out to prove what a degenerate religion Islam is.
His "examples" went back as far as Biblical times.
Take no notice - this is just Teribus's way of trying to get his revenge for having been given yet another sound thrashing
All in a day's entertainment
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 01:11 PM

Jim, I do not regard the Daily Mail as a reputable news agency.
It is dated 26th May. That suggestion made a brief appearance but did not stand up to scrutiny.
It is not now regarded by anyone as relevant to the atrocity.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 01:15 PM

The suggestion was only made by his sister, who described the monster as "kind and loving."

His friends death was gang related not racist.
He did not take his revenge on the rival gang, but on mostly mothers and children whose faces he saw as he pressed his trigger.
It was all a lie to excuse his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 01:31 PM

I see that Carroll is still being eaten up by the fact he was caught out in full "Made-Up-Shit" mode by the list I put up to challenge his assertion that there have been more terrorist attacks perpetrated in the name of Christianity than in that of Islam. I challenged him to put up an equal list of terror attacks perpetrated by Christians, but having been caught out once again, he assumed his usual defense of name calling and personal attack. Every time he brings it up gives me a good deal of satisfaction to see that he is still trying to save face over it after all this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 03:35 PM

His friends death was gang related not racist.

And you know all about Manchester gangs do you Keith? You have not realised that turf wars are generally speaking all about gangs from specific areas and specific ethnicities trespassing on another? There are exceptions but the black gangs do not have many white people in them. The White gangs generally do not tolerate anyone from another race and, yes, there are Asian gangs from predominately Asian areas. You really do live in a different world don't you.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:09 PM

how did Manchester ever get that big?

When I was a kid it was just a town you went to after Stockport on the way to St Helens?

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 04:18 PM

Turn your back for one minute and it just happens, Al :-) I never recall it being just a town like that though. Even in my teens back in the late 60s and early 70s it was a city buzzing with life and always contended with Birmingham for second city status. In the late 70s and 80s when I used to see a lot more live music, we used to go all over the place and the most interesting was the Irish sessions in Moss Side. The drug gangs were in evidence then and all sorts of shit used to go on in the street but places like the Ducie Arms behind the University and the Claremont were sacrosanct. We often got a few of the gang members in for a listen and one became a good banjo player!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 06:30 PM

Ken Dodd, the funniest bugger on the planet:

"I told a joke in Liverpool and the audience laughed their heads off, but no-one laughed in Manchester.

That's because they couldn't hear it in Manchester."

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 07:30 PM

actually when i'm thinking of, the mid fifties - you actually went right through the centre.

somehow it seemed quicker than nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 07:32 PM

and it was Lancashire in those days.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 17 - 07:54 PM

It was. I went to school in Radcliffe and all the exercise books had Lancashire Education Committee printed on them, with a load of guff about rods, poles and perches printed on the back cover. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 03:39 AM

Dave,
And you know all about Manchester gangs do you Keith?

No.
I know nothing about them. So what?

Did I get anything wrong?
Are you actually challenging anything I said?

If so, let's have it.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 04:22 AM

"Jim, I do not regard the Daily Mail as a reputable news agency."
Course you don't Keith - when it doesn't firt your own personal agenda
The story appears elsewhere - I chose the Daily Mail as the newspaper least likely to invent a story that contradicts the establishment line
The killer's family and friends are far more likely to understand his motivation that that of outsiders who, if your claims are correct, underfunded and reduced (no comment on that yet) security forces dealing with thousands of "suspects".   
That the death of his mate might of been "gang related" (no evidence of that) is immaterial - the reason given was that he thought it was racist
You carefully tip-toe around that the slaughter that is going on in Syria was also mentioned - too close to home or an apologist of Assad's atrocities.
That slaughter is not in any way an excuse for the Manchester slaughter, but it does help to put the whole terrorism issue into context
It is Britain and the West's participation in and inaction that has led to the rise of Isis and it is long overdue that was recognised and dealt with - until it is, these attacks will be given an excuse to continue.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 04:31 AM

By the way
You accused me of making the story up - I didn't
You neither withdrew your accusation, nor apologised for making it
Your little Jimminy Cricket, Bobad continues with it "I see that Carroll is still being eaten up by the fact he was caught out in full "Made-Up-Shit""
I don't know where Bobad is from as he operates from the safety of anonymity, a true web-creeper, but as far as your own badly brought up, loutish behaviour is concerned the practice of apologising for mistakes or withdrawing accusations doesn't seem to have reached Hertford yet and, if you are anything to go on, I doubt if it ever will   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 06:34 AM

yeh Dave thinks i've got something against the Poles, actually its the furlongs that really piss me off.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 06:51 AM

"actually its the furlongs that really piss me off."
Old Joke (Liverpool)
Do you know what the Poles are doing in Manchester?
Holding up the telephone wires
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 07:47 AM

Bloody kids of today. Ask 'em how many chains in a furlong and they wouldn't have a clue. Tsk.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:07 AM

Did I get anything wrong?
Are you actually challenging anything I said?

If so, let's have it.

Yes, Keith. You did. You said

His friends death was gang related not racist.

I was pointing out that if it was gang related in Manchester it could well have been racist as well.

Al, I don't think you have anything against Poles which is why I was puzzled as to why you said that east Europeans bring lawlessness in towns where they settle. I have also said that I am happy to put it down to a mistake but as long as you keep bringing it up, I am happy to quote the exact phrase again. Do you want me to?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:32 AM

another one with the statistics to prove he's right....

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 08:51 AM

I have, Al. All official sources I have seen say that East Europeans do not increase the crime rat.

What do you have to justify your phrase People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.?

I have asked for any proof of such increased lawlessness before and I am still waiting.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 10:31 AM

okay chapter and verse once again.
a friend of mine had a quid shop on the green at boston.
we were standing outside chatting to the shopkeeper - a man i had gone to school with some forty odd years previously - my wife and i.
a gang of oddly dressed men ran into the shop, helped themselves. ran out again -   arms full of loot.
i said to the shop owner why don't you call the police.
i didn't know they were eastern europeans - my wife has since told me that the shopkeeper told us this was the case.
the shopkeeper also told us - there was no point in notifying the police as the situation was out of control.
i would also point out the boston website, where remarks and complaints are now banned, because they would make up the bulk of posting - and no one is interested.

my observation has pissed you off and i sorry about that. however if people have stopped bothering reporting the crimes, because nothing ever gets done. it does offer an explanation as to why the statistics don't bear out my story,

whereas i do tend to think the brexit referendum figures for boston, my hometown do suggest i am not a dishonest racist or given to dishonest racist remarks - which seems to be the argument of insidious intent.

i can assure you that when my dad was a cop policing boston - it was not the general way of things.

sorry if my attempt at humour upset you. won't do it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 10:35 AM

Dave, I have been reading about Manchester gangs, and it appears that their activities are purely criminal and not racial.
Again I challenge you to identify any errors in my post.
It is clear that you know much less about this than you pretend.

Here the killing of Abdi's friend is described.
"A feud between two south Manchester gangs is behind the outbreak of violence in Moss Side which has resulted in two murders since December, police believe. Tensions between teenage members of the Moss Side Bloods - an offshoot of the infamous Doddington crew - and the Rusholme Crips have erupted over the last few months, according to a senior police source. "

"However, two murders and one attempted murder which took place in Moss Side since December are being linked to the feud. Abdul Wahab Hafidah, 18, was run over by a Vauxhall Corsa on Moss Lane East during the evening rush-hour before the occupants stabbed him in his neck and abdomen on May 12."
http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2016-05-25/gang-feud-behind-outbreak-of-violence-in-manchester/

Wiki,
"Analysts trace the high rates of gun crime in south Manchester, England, to acute social deprivation in an inner city area south of Manchester city centre stretching from Hulme through Moss Side to Longsight.[1] Whilst by the 1990s, the trade in illegal narcotics and firearms had given rise to Manchester's nickname of "Gunchester", by the late 2000s levels of gang related gun crime had greatly reduced in the area as a whole.[1][2]
The reasons for this transformation are not entirely clear but the heavy sentencing of main offenders, prohibiting the availability of firearms, community working and co-operation in tackling this kind of crime may have all played a role"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_crime_in_south_Manchester

More reading,
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britains-worst-gang-war-sparked-6922214

http://www.mancunianmatters.co.uk/content/190272635-manchesters-gangs-exposed-dj-dave-haslam-asks-uncomfortable-questions

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 10:52 AM

Keith, I have sat in pubs with gangs members. They were criminal and racist. Needless to say I didn't stay long. Everything is binary to you, either one thing or another. Things can be both you know. Is that so difficult to understand?

You have not responded to what you think was nasty BTW.

Al, you didn't upset me. I am just puzzled as to why you keep bringing it up.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 11:05 AM

Dave, apart from your anecdote is there any evidence the gangs are not just criminal but racist.

Why did all those experts and many more forget to mention it?

Perhaps, possibly, you actually know less than all these published authorities on the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 11:11 AM

Manchester Evening News, a long and detailed piece, mostly quoted from a book on the subject.
Nothing about racism though.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/guns-and-gangs-in-manchester-victims-of-a-sad-1214320

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 11:37 AM

"Nothing about racism though."
Nothing to indicate this was the murder in question either
A rhetorical question - do I get an apology for your accusation that I made this up now you have reached the stage of accepting it and denying it's racist implication (as you inevitably do)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 11:55 AM

Forgot to add
There was a 42% rise in racist attacks following Brexit - Manchester and the North West included
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 01:15 PM

The intent of the gangs is not racist in the main. The are involved in criminal activities to make money. To insist the gangs have any sort of character of their own is pretty stupid. They comprise of individual criminals, quite often with no regard for human life. Do you think for one minute that they would stop at a racially aggravated crime?

I may not know as much as some authorities but I know a damn site more than those who have only read about it and pontificate fro rural idyls.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 01:30 PM

"pontificate fro rural idyls"
I've lived and worked in these places Dave - Mosside and Toxteth included for a time.
I'm not questioning the existence of gangs, just the rush to judgement that this particular incident wasn't racist.
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 01:39 PM

Jim, I did not accuse you of making anything up.
Nothing to indicate this was the murder in question either

Rubbish! You have clearly not read the articles about it that you linked to and cross referenced with the report I quoted. It is the same death described and on the same date.

Dave, your attack on my post was purely personal, and not based on anything I actually said or on any fact, knowledge or evidence.
You have still not challenged or questioned anything I said in it.
Just personal.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 02:12 PM

Keith. I questioned that the attack was not racist. Nothing you have said changes that. And you have not come up with anything to justify calling it nasty either. Guess you must have just seen something I didn't write. Different language? :-)

Not sure on your point, Jim. I lived the first 60 years of my life in urban Salford and agree with you.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 17 - 07:59 PM

"Jim, I did not accuse you of making anything up."
Liar
"Please give details, because no UK news agency has carried such a story."
There you go I said it was in the press, you denied it, therefore I made it up
Somebody should introduce to to telling the truth occaionally = you seem a total stranger to it
" It is the same death described and on the same date."
Nowhere does it mention the Bomber in the reports and given the massive rise in racist attacks following Brexit, it cannot even be considered a coincidence
It was simple manipulative journalism which happens all the time - put two articles up at the same time in the same paper and your readers will make the link - you need to read The Times to see how they do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 02:49 AM

I think you have made a mistake and should apologise PFR...your outburst is completely out of character....or I have you figured wrongly.

Iains was discussing the legal aspect, not denigrating the victims, and Mr Corbyn, though I support much of what he says, is not above making political points over tragedies.....in common with most politicians.
Hope you accept this without rancour, as there is none intended. We should be able to discuss any subject here, as most of us know one another as well as family members.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 02:53 AM

Sorry wrong thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 03:06 AM

Having gone through the links supplied related to Manchester gangs and gun crime - the gangs are obviously criminal in nature not "racist", I mean in those links on gun crime there isn't a single mention of a starting pistol being used (Thought you might like like that Al)

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 03:10 AM

Jim,
"Jim, I did not accuse you of making anything up."
Liar

If I lied, QUOTE ME!!

"Please give details, because no UK news agency has carried such a story."
There you go I said it was in the press, you denied it, therefore I made it up

I myself found the French News agency story. You gave no link. The Mail just lifted that story which has now been dropped by everyone.

It was not a racist killing.
His friend was a gang member killed in a feud with a rival gang.
The killing was not racial and does not make Abedi a victim worthy of any sympathy.
He was a Jihadi killing entirely innocent people and children for his cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 03:15 AM

"Having gone through the links supplied related to Manchester gangs and gun crime - the gangs are obviously criminal in nature not "racist""
Ah well - that's it then - the word from the top of the Mountain
Mr T says it so it must be true - who needs more than that?
Unbelievable!!!
This has been concentrated on by those who do not wish to discuss Britain's culpability in the terrorism that is getting a toe-hold in modern society and need not have had the wealthy West played a part in helping the poorer people rid themselves of despots instead of arming anf supporting them for our own purposes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 17 - 03:42 AM

I thought I already said the gangs were criminal? Can criminals not be racists or something? What peculiar logic.

DtG