BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 02:56 PM

"But it was not a racist killing, and all Mancunians knew that."
Nobody knows that, and certainly not you in your leafy cocoon
You deliberately missed th killing of children in Syria, as is you wont
"reported the killer's sister's statement that he was motivated by the killing of his friend and the killing of children in Syria,"
What are you on - lying tablets, as well as 'protect the racists' pills?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 03:31 PM

"But it was not a racist killing, and all Mancunians knew that."
Nobody knows that,

The police know that, and Dave knew they did but kept quiet about it.

And it was not both Dave, unless you think that a white member of that gang caught on the rival gang's turf would have been treated differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 04:14 PM

No they would not have been treated differently. I have been on that turf and had to answer some rather intimidating questions. Yes, they were criminal. Racist? Probably. I was lucky enough to be part of the known Irish scene in the area or I suspect my treatment would have become more physical.

Stop speculating about things you can never understand.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 04:01 AM

I am not speculating.
The police are adamant that there was no racist component. That is a fact.

Do you claim the police are incapable of understanding too?

The police say it.
The DPP agree.
You and Jim do not.

Why should we listen to you two just because you somehow imagine you know more about it than they do?

(Different planet!)

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 07:32 AM

Still flying the flag for racism, I see Keith
A bit self-interested on our part

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 07:47 AM

Raggy doesn't seem to thing the motive was "racial".

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 08:18 AM

"Raggy doesn't seem to thing the motive was "racial"."
So what?
The killer believed the attack on his mate was racial - he coupled his belief with the slaughter that was happening in Syria and carried out his attack - that is the indisputable fact that Keith denied for reasons best known to himself
Whather the killer's beliefs were correct is immaterial - his actions were inhuman
For some strange reason, Keith has used this horrific event to mount a campaign on racism
He has first denied the facts - the sister's statement being an example, then he systematically invented a non existent scenarion, ninking the original murder to a feud between two Afro-Carribean gangs
Since then he has busted his balls absolving racism from the killing, despite the fact that it was a turf war event between two ethnic groups, Afro Caribbean and Muslim
This is a totally unacceptable defence of racism
Indigenous terrorism is rising at an alarming rate in Britain.
In the wake of Brexit, the arrest of white terrorists rose by 66% So far this year, far-right terrorist incidents up to March accounted for 37% of all terrorist arrests, compared with 26% in the previous year.Keith's manic defence of an incident which might or might not have been racist only fuels this rise
"But it was not a racist killing, and all Mancunians knew that."
For Christ sake, what kind of madman could make such a hysterically insane statement - how the **** could "all Mancunians" know such a thing, and if they did, who has ever asked them?
Nurse - the screens, th screens!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 10:44 AM

You are a utter liar professor. I have made no reference to the killing AT ALL.

You are once again clutching at straws.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 11:03 AM

Jim,
Still flying the flag for racism, I see Keith

Same lying shit every time you lose Jim.
If I have flown the flag for racism, QUOTE ME, LIAR!

The killer believed the attack on his mate was racial

No he did not.
The Greater Manchester Police reassured Mancunians immediately that it was NOT racial.

Can you produce any single scrap of evidence that anyone in Manchester believed it was racial?
No.
Just made up shit Jim.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 11:34 AM

Rag, your last post was complete and utter bollocks, just like all your other posts.

If I am "a liar," QUOTE ME!

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 12:32 PM

"If I have flown the flag for racism, QUOTE ME, LIAR!"
You don't really want me to dig up your "implanted" Pakistanis do you - or your attack on brainwashed children o the "lave-owning Travelling community?
Do not call me a liar unless you really want examples repeated to you
"The Greater Manchester Police reassured Mancunians"
Do you believe everything A BOBBY tells you?
To repeat, this killing was the result of a conflict with two racial groups, which lays it open to the possibility of it being racist.
No facts, other than police denials have proved that not to be the case and your efforts to claim otherwise without proof become more and more bizarre
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 12:56 PM

Do you believe everything A BOBBY tells you?

I believe that the Greater Manchester Police know a lot more about this crime than you and Dave do Jim!

I think you have both got it all wrong as usual, because the GMP are adamant it was not a racist crime and there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE THAT IT WAS!

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 12:57 PM

BTW,
Still flying the flag for racism, I see Keith

If I have been "flying the flag for racism," QUOTE ME, LIAR!

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 01:41 PM

"QUOTE ME, LIAR!"
I just have done
Can we just clear up this claim of yours that the police wrote this off as not being racist
Following the attack they did so in order to calm things down - very laudable
Since then they have described the murder as a gang dispute, with no comment whatever of the cultural make-up of the warring gangs - it is conceivable that this was a racist attack and a gang killing - the two are not exclusive.
If the fact that these gangs are Muslim and Afro Caribbean have no bearing on the attack, that needs to be stated clearly and perhaps THE BRITISH POLICE are the least qualified to make such a statement
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:20 AM

"QUOTE ME, LIAR!"
I just have done

Another lie.
If it is true, QUOTE YOURSELF LIAR!

Now you accuse the GMP of lying about the crime to the people of Manchester.
Do you think the local media and people of Manchester would accept that?
Of course not.
The GMP knew it to be a gang feud. The gangsters would have killed the rival gangster on their turf whatever his ethnicity.

Can you name any single person or news agency who claims any racist component to the crime, or is it just you and Dave for your own political agendas?

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:33 AM

The GMP know that it is easier to get a conviction based on gang membership that it is to get a race hate crime conviction. They extensively use joint enterprise provisions to secure convictions that could otherwise be unsafe. Do you think they are stupid enough to proceed with a prosecution for race hate when they are almost guaranteed a conviction by using the gang card?

And, yes, I could name a number of people who know that there are racist components in gang crimes but as they are serving police officers I will not do so.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:50 AM

"If the fact that these gangs are Muslim and Afro Caribbean have no bearing on the attack" - Jim Carroll

And here we have Raggy:

"let me assure you that gang were not just located in South Manchester, nor were they exclusive to any one group of people. Salford and Cheetham Hill were particular areas "controlled" by gangs and trust me on this one they were not of Afro-Caribbean or Asian descent." - Raggy

So it would seem that the gangs are NOT Muslim and Afro-Caribbean and that Jom has his "facts" wrong (Not unusual) and that the GMP were correct in describing the motive for this murder as being criminal gang related as borne out by the evidence - i.e. a large group on gang members from one gang deliberately pursued a person known to be a member of a rival gang ran him over and then stabbed him in the neck and killed him. The reason he was pursued and killed was because he was a member of a rival gang. It had nothing to do with his religion or race.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:02 AM

"Now you accuse the GMP of lying about the crime to the people of Manchester."
The state has always lied when it suits them to do so "being economical with the truth" has become an accepted stock phrase.
You have been given the situation with the police, you must know that so long after the Stephen Lawrence killing, the Police authorities still accept that it has not moved on from the institutional racism it found itself guilty of all those years ago.
I told you why I believed they described the killing as not being racist at the time (and described it as laudable)
Th local (and national) media invariably side with the authorities in matters such as this - pioneering journalism is the domain of the "leftie" press and the killing of one young man is so commonplace nowadays that it doesn't merit such what with what else is happening in the world today
You choose to ignore it and continue with your defence of racism
Your hysteria on this matter is becoming disturbing so I'll leave you defending your racism
You will not respond to what Dave has just written just as you have not responded to anything I have
You're on your own again Keith - King of the Castle - you musut have "won"!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:26 AM

The reason he was pursued and killed was because he was a member of a rival gang. It had nothing to do with his religion or race.

The reason he was in a that particular gang was because of his religion or race.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 05:51 AM

The GMP know that it is easier to get a conviction based on gang membership that it is to get a race hate crime conviction

That is shite Dave. To get a conviction they have to prove that the accused did it, not his motivation.
Gang membership is not even a crime.

Joint enterprise requires them to be present and involved during the murder. Gang membership is irrelevant.

And, yes, I could name a number of people who know that there are racist components in gang crimes but as they are serving police officers I will not do so.

Bollocks. They would leak it to the media if that was true.

Your whole case is that GMP is lying and the DPP and the whole media have failed to notice!
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:04 AM

Really scraping the barrel now, Keith

"You lose"

Is that the best you can do? :-)

Not quite as bad as

"That is shite Dave. To get a conviction they have to prove that the accused did it, not his motivation.
Gang membership is not even a crime.

Joint enterprise requires them to be present and involved during the murder. Gang membership is irrelevant."

Do a google search for a well researched academic paper on the subject. Maybe using the phrase

More than three-quarters of the black and minority ethnic prisoners reported that the prosecution claimed that they were members of a 'gang', compared to only 39 percent of white prisoners. This apparent 'gang' affiliation' is used to secure convictions, under joint enterprise provisions, for offences they have not committed.

Enjoy your research.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:20 AM

Dave if your whole case is that the GMP is lying to the people of Manchester but you and Jim know the truth, then you have indeed lost the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:25 AM

Joint Enterprise is not even being used in the trials anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:28 AM

Dave if your whole case is that the GMP is lying to the people of Manchester

It is not. It is that GMP are not stupid enough to pursue a race related crime that could be lost when they can pursue a gang related crime that they will almost certainly win.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:36 AM

...and JE is not being used in the trials eh? Seeing as you don't seem to have found the paper I alluded to I suppose I had better give another clue.

This point also extends to JE sentences, which to date are not captured and reported.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 07:18 AM

"The reason he was in a that particular gang was because of his religion or race."

Not according to Raggy.

"let me assure you that gang were not just located in South Manchester, nor were they exclusive to any one group of people. Salford and Cheetham Hill were particular areas "controlled" by gangs and trust me on this one they were not of Afro-Caribbean or Asian descent." - Raggy

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 07:21 AM

"gangs" being the operative word
We are discussing two - one exclusively Afro-Caribbean, the other Muslin (mainly Moroccan
Jim Carroll)

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 07:56 AM

I am happy to let Raggy explain to you that gangs not being of Afro-Caribbean or Asian descent means that they were predominately white European as the Salford gangs are.

You say neither and I say neither...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 11:47 AM

Dave, Google gave a couple of hits for that quote, but how is it relevant here?

It is that GMP are not stupid enough to pursue a race related crime that could be lost when they can pursue a gang related crime that they will almost certainly win.

The GMP are neither lying nor stupid.
The accused are being tried for murder, not hate crime, gang membership or feuding.

Manchester needed to be reassured that people are not being killed for their race, but saying more would jeopardise the trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 11:49 AM

Dave if your whole case is that the GMP is lying to the people of Manchester
It is not.

Yes it is.
What else have you got?
Have you found anyone else in the world who believes what you do?

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 12:59 PM

Yes it is.

I have just told you that it isn't and what I actually believe. If you want to get into a pantomime of 'Oh yes it is. Oh no it isn't' I suggest you go to the theatre.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 01:03 PM

My mistake professor it was terikins who thinks me can read my thoughts, in my defence you and he are two sides of the same coin.

Terikins I refered specifically to gangs in North and North West Manchester, areas that I knew well when growing up there. I made no reference to gangs in South and South West Manchester although I was aware of such gangs in my time there.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 01:08 PM

"Have you found anyone else in the world who believes what you do?"
Moved on from "all Mancunians" to world wide support - interplanetary intervention next stop
Mad as a bag of ferrets!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 01:34 PM

Examples of Earthlings who claim the police are not trustworthy
The Telelgraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10383342/If-the-police-are-allowed-to-lie-and-cheat-we-are-heading-for-anarchy.html
THE SPECTATOR
NEW STATESMAN
RACISM
BRUTALITY
CAN THE POLICE BE TRUSTED - PROBABLY NOT
Best send for Mr Spock
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 01:38 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 01:41 PM

NOT FORGETTING MANCHESTER
AND MORE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:01 PM

"Have you found anyone else in the world who believes what you do?"
Moved on from "all Mancunians" to world wide support - interplanetary intervention next stop
Mad as a bag of ferrets!!!

Answer then.
Can you name anyone from Manchester, or the world, or anywhere else who believes that shit?
No.
Manchester Police are not lying. It was not a racist killing.
Your entire case is based on your utterly groundless assertion that the police are lying about this murder.
You have no case.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:37 PM

No comment on the the statistics of who trusts the police then Keith
Thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:40 PM

"Can you name anyone from Manchester, or the world"
You have had the publications who belive it
Could reel of a few dozen Mancunians who do (from personal bitter experience)
Tell us who you know from Manchester and lets see if they are included
Stupid boy!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 02:44 PM

See the lap dog has been kicked back into the traces then. Good doggy.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:10 PM

"All time low"
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/black-lives-matter-police-violence-attacking-officers-uk-us-fight-discrimination-a7178511.html

ACADEMIC STUDY
PLEBGATE

What planet are you on Keith,
What planet are you on!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:16 PM

Manchester Police are not lying. It was not a racist killing.
Your entire case is based on your utterly groundless assertion that the police are lying about this murder.

Jim has, quite rightly, pointed out that the police,including the GMP, are not entirely innocent of wrong doing at times. But even if that were not the case no one has said that they are lying over this case. Just that they chose the easier and more certain option when they prosecuted. Once again, these criminals can be and often are racist.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 03:48 PM

I find it highly amusing that someone who doffs his cap at the merest sign of authority, someone who obeys his "betters" at every occasion should refer to me as a lapdog. Unlike you terikins I am quite capable of rational independent thought.

I did notice there was no actually response to my mention off your inaccuracys.

Quelle surprise!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:34 PM

"I am quite capable of rational independent thought." - says Raggy

Very pleased to hear that Raggy - got any examples of you ever having actually done that though?

Inaccuracies Raggy? You were directly quoted as follows:

"let me assure you that gang were not just located in South Manchester, nor were they exclusive to any one group of people. Salford and Cheetham Hill were particular areas "controlled" by gangs and trust me on this one they were not of Afro-Caribbean or Asian descent." - Raggy

Now then Raggy which one was "THAT GANG"? Up until this point in the thread we had only been discussing two at the most the one that had one of it's members run down and killed and the one whose members did the killing.

Also Raggy, rationally and independently using this thought process that you boast of can you explain the following apparent contradiction in your statements:

"I refered specifically to gangs in North and North West Manchester, areas that I knew well when growing up there. I made no reference to gangs in South and South West Manchester" - Raggytash - 21 Jun 17 - 01:03 PM

The following are the contradictions Raggy:

let me assure you that gang were not just located in South Manchester - Yet you say later that you made no reference to gangs in South and South West Manchester - Ooh Raggy you lying little Tw@t.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:45 PM

In my original post I made no reference to gangs in South Manchester except to say that gangs are not just located in that area. You may try and assume what you will, but just for once try reading a post before putting your knee jerk reaction in process.

As Dave is wont to say "different language"

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 04:42 AM

"you lying little Tw@t."
When at a loss, talk down to and insult
Never works as you know from past experience
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 08:32 AM

Jim,
"Can you name anyone from Manchester, or the world"
You have had the publications who belive it

We have not Jim.
If you mean the Mail article, it specifically says it does not.

Here are some facts.

Fact 1. Abdul Wahab Hafidah was a member of a criminal gang that was feuding with a gang from Moss Side.
Deny that?

Fact 2. Neither gang targets ethnic groups, but they do target each other.
Deny that?

Fact 3. There had been a number of murders and attempted murders in the feud.
Deny that?

Fact 4. Hafidah was caught and killed on the other gang's turf.
Deny that?

Fact 5. It follows that GMP were NOT LYING when they said that he was not killed for his ethnicity.
You two are.

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 08:35 AM

Jim,
You have had the publications who belive it

If that is not a lie, QUOTE YOURSELF, LIAR!

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 09:07 AM

You two are.

Just who are 'you two'. Your diatribe appears to be addressed to Jim only. Assuming I am the other one, I have never said that GMP are lying. Just that they chose the better of two options when they prosecuted.

If I amy I will address one of your points though.

Neither gang targets ethnic groups, but they do target each other.

The individual gangs generally stick to the same ethnic groups. So by targeting another gang, they cannot help but target an ethnic group. Your statement is like saying that Abedi targeted concert goers so he did not target anyone else. Can you just not comprehend that it is not as simple as only targeting one group?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Lone nutter did Manchester bombing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 09:09 AM

200!