BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.

Subject: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 04:34 AM

Another terrorist attack, this time on worshippers leaving the mosque at Finsbury Park. The crowd stopped the terrorist, pinned him down and handed him over to police. He was lucky he didn't get a good hiding, and all credit to those who stopped this happening, that took some courage.

It seems like a madness is gripping the nation at present.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 04:46 AM

One reported death
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 05:32 AM

another casualty of that bloody referendum, that they apparently had no reason for or realistic possibility of fulfilling peoples wishes when it comes to leaving the EU.

brexit's dead in the water, a hostage of the unionist lot - it was all for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:15 AM

Brexit?
What is the connection?
A Right Wing extremist more like, and more likely inspired by recent similar attacks than EU issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:26 AM

Big Al.

I really struggle to understand your conclusion that this tragedy was caused by the "bloody referendum".

Believe me, I hated the referendum and it's result as much as anyone. Early reports (although they may of course be wrong) suggest that he may have had mental health issues.

One thing I would say, I found it a little rich that an Islam leader was saying on Breakfast TV that Islamic Mosques now require special protection. So are those people going to gigs in Manchester, or out for a drink in London not as special?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:39 AM

It's entirely reasonable that mosques might require some sort of protective measures - better CCTV might be appropriate. They are far more likely to be attacked than any other kind of building in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 06:53 AM

I really struggle to stay cool today!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:04 AM

[Mosques] are far more likely to be attacked than any other kind of building in the UK.

I doubt you have any stats to back that up, but if you do please share. I fully accept that when I lived in Sheffield, the mosque down the road from me often suffered broken windows, but there was not murder and misconstrues the point I was trying to make.

Allegedly done in the name of Islam

Manchester - 22 May 2017: 22 dead
London - 3 June 2017: 8 dead

Allegedly done as anti Islam

London - 19 June 2017: 1 dead

I'm not suggesting for a moment that mosques shouldn't be better defended, it just irked me that he assumed they were a special case.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:05 AM

"So are those people going to gigs in Manchester, or out for a drink in London not as special?"

Eh up, t'Daily Mail has arrived.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:19 AM

Wow, Stu!

You obviously don't know me, but I think you deserve a prize for making the greatest misrepresentation of me that I ever read!

I clearly haven't expressed myself well enough, or maybe your verbal reasoning skills are lacking?

Whatever, you are WAY, WAY off the mark, I can assure you.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:21 AM

well i voted out.

but as very few politicians were in favour, i was pessimistic about the result. after Gove did the dirty on Boris - i thought then - it'll never happen. And i think i was proved right.

lots of people said that racial tension grew because of the EDL and the referendum.

so as its turned out - like so much else all these bodies are the product of a silly pointless squabble in the tory party.

that's my logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:36 AM

"...or maybe your verbal reasoning skills are lacking?"

That must be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:51 AM

"Brexit?"
Go count the accelerated racist attacks following the result and put them against Farrago's poster of invading immigrants
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:55 AM

Well Stu, one of the problems with this type of communication is that you never know if someone is being genuine or ironic.

In this case, I strongly suspect the later!

Anyway my main point was that all people should be treated equally. Off to pick up my Daily Mail now....

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 07:59 AM

I doubt if it's a coincidence that this happened on the anniversary of the murder of Jo Cox by a "Britain First" fanatic, in the run up to the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 08:48 AM

See also:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/19/muslim-girl-17-killed-on-way-home-from-virginia-mosque

Thanks, Trump!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 09:25 AM

"one of the problems with this type of communication is that you never know if someone is being genuine or ironic."

Very true, and if I've misunderstood then I apologise. Some of the types on here would have said that without a hint of irony...

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 10:20 AM

May is onto a winner then stating a need to erradicate hate speach.. when so much of it emenates from right wing libertarian 'tory supporting / Corbyn hating' blog sites..

[the sort of daily 'news' sites popular with some folks embedded in mudcat]

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 10:39 AM

One can only hope this latest tragedy/attack will unite us all in solidarity and mutual support rather than fuel acts of hate and vengeance on all sides. The country seems to be a tinderbox (in more senses than one) at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 10:47 AM

Sen - sadly there will always be escalations in tit for tat retaliations
because fanatical extremists by their nature are too mentally deranged to know how to behave otherwise
in a civilised peace aspiring society...

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 11:38 AM

I think the tit-for-tat retaliators know what they are about. I think that's generally the case - there's a kind of cooperation between the extremists, who share the goal of trying to drive people apart.

I suppose in some kinds of situation a reprisal might be seen as an attempt to deter the other side, but that never seems to work. Far more commonly such things are an effort to drive the conflict, and make it worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 11:57 AM

In that case Kevin all these "co-operating" extremists must be very poor students of history and on a very shallow learning curve because their track record to date is that they have not succeeded in driving anybody apart yet - in fact quite the reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 12:06 PM

It's been my 'educated opinion' since my degree and post grad studies back in the 80s
that mental health issues are fundamental to the make up of most forms of fanaticism and extremism...

Which is a very bleak prospect for any rational dialogues for reconcilliation....??????

But mainstream right wing media has it's own distorted agenda for reporting what's 'real evil terrorism' and merely 'nutjob terrorist acts'...

Already the hints in news reports are that this alleged 'white terrorist' has a history of mental illness............
ie.. be reasured.. he's just a lone individual, 'one of ours' who's always been a bit wrong in the head...

My gut feeling.. he's probably of the same ilk as Jo Cox's murderer,
and even if he is not linked to any organised right wing hate groups,
has had his mind warped by all the same hateful drip drip propaganda....

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 12:17 PM

It's quite easy to tell if someone is a loner with mental health issues or a terrorist with the backing of an evil worldwide organisation. Just check their ethnicity and their religion.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 12:30 PM

You bet! White Christians - look out for THOSE fuckers!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 12:42 PM

By all means Greg F. you do just that

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 12:59 PM

Leaders and press should stop using the word 'terrorist.' If attackers were labelled something belittling, such as

irrational
extreme
impaired
substance abuser
unmotivated

they wouldn't be strutting around saying "I'm somebody. I'm a terrorist."

(The same applies to serial killers, who should just be given numbers, not tags such as 'Son of Sam' or 'BTK'.)

I watched footage of the attack near the mosque. When the suspect was loaded into a van, he waved cheerfully at the camera. Obviously he relished the publicity. He is almost certainly a few bricks shy of a load.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: pdq
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 01:01 PM

From another website. Obviously, not Mudcat:



As a reminder, this ******* is for civil discussion.

Do not call other users trolls, morons, children, or anything else clever you may think of. Personal attacks, whether explicit or implicit, are not permitted.

Do not accuse other users of being shills. If you believe that a user is a shill, the proper conduct is to report the user or send us a modmail.

In general, don't be a jerk. Don't bait people, don't use hate speech, etc. ATTACK IDEAS, not users.

Do not downvote comments because you disagree with them, and be willing to upvote quality comments whether you agree with the opinions held or not.

Incivility will result in a permanent ban from the ********. If you see uncivil comments, please report them and do not reply with incivility of your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 01:45 PM

the proper conduct is to report the user or send us a modmail.

I would agree entirely if that worked on Mudcat but that is not the way things are done here. Moderation is purposely hands off. This does not reflect in anyway on the quality of the moderatora. In fact they do a stalwart job in very trying conditions at times. It is just the nature of Mudcat.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 01:51 PM

I am sincerely resigned to accepting that there exists a hardcore of malevolent lunatics of various political/religious extremes,
who would relish our UK being destabilised to the extent
that our cities & towns become reduced to the grim burnt decaying rubble of war torn Syria,
Ukraine, and other perpetually out of control civil war hot spots...



.. but on the bright side, got some nice ice lollys in the fridge during this heat wave....

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 01:52 PM

In that case Kevin all these "co-operating" extremists must be very poor students of history and on a very shallow learning curve because their track record to date is that they have not succeeded in driving anybody apart yet - in fact quite the reverse.

Possibly not in the island of Great Britain, so far. But sadly there are only too many examples demonstrating the reverse. You don't have to go too far to see how it happens, in the recent history of Ireland. Then there are the states of former Yugoslavia, the Holy Land... too many examples of this process to enumerate.

And no, I'm not suggesting the extremists sit down and work it out in advance. But often they might as well have.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 02:20 PM

Apparently the chap who did this is a Welshman aged 47, with four children. Neighbours describe him as 'shouty'. He recently insulted two of his Muslim neighbours' children, calling them 'inbred'. Very strange. The Imam at the mosque intervened and prevented the congregation exiting the mosque from lynching him.

Mental assessments will be done as a matter of course.

I had to look up the word 'shill' pdq. Most interesting!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 02:35 PM

England has been a fount of political and religious ferment for hundreds if not over a thousand years. Think 'Levelers' think 'Puritans' think 'Luddites' (OK, so economical ferment as well). England is not about to come apart any more than usual (It's the whole rest of the world we've got to worry about).

This shameful incident appears to be a one-off. Apparently some of the would-be victims were able to capture the perpetrator and prevent him injury for a substantial amount of time until he could be taken into custody. So in the midst of this violence, the public will to organize and summon proper authority was not extinguished.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 02:49 PM

"(It's the whole rest of the world we've got to worry about)
Iceberg, what iceberg?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 17 - 03:52 PM

crisis, what crisis?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 06:49 AM

Sixty years ago kids in America were taught that the US was a melting pot for all races creeds and religions to live together Still racism was rampant and WASPS resented Jews.

Today it is bad. It is worse. It is really bad with kids being taught violence is a given when dealing with immigrants. Parents, coaches and Republican on TV all give the kids a less than tacit approval to attack and kill.

It feels to me that there is a social sickness. It is Bad. From my 1950's POV it is really bad.
It may even get worse. Maybe this is how Rome defeated itself from within with home schooled hate. Candle light (Bic) vigils for the murdered are innumerable. Guns and baseball bats re on the rise.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 07:09 AM

"crisis, what crisis?"
THIS ONE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Jun 17 - 08:52 AM

Apparently the death was the guy they were helping before the car crashed into them.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 04:04 AM

This person drove all the way from Cardiff to London to commit the attack. That suggests planning and a certain amount of mental competence. It seems he was a very unstable, confrontational and aggressive character.
He actually drove over the legs of the unwell gentleman on the ground, who had collapsed at a nearby bus-stop. (He had heart problems apparently)
The trouble is that any disgruntled, ostracised, marginalised or resentful idiot may nowadays regard 'The Muslims' as a suitable target for their ire. It's what I call the 'Kick-The-Cat Syndrome'.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 06:39 AM

Maybe it isn't coincidence that a Russian service is one of the main networking tools of the violent far right?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/finsbury-park-attack-muslims-islam-right-wing-extremists-response-uk-a7799901.html

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 17 - 12:10 PM

And just to show Scotland won't be left out:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-40353435

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 02:15 PM

Update on the man who was killed:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40366127

I don't understand why the driver has not been charged with murder. He intended to kill people, and he did kill one. What more does it take?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Jun 17 - 03:05 PM

As the victim had already collapsed, I imagine that the CPS need to ascertain first that the poor man who died did so as a result of the attack and not from, say, natural causes due to a heart problem or some such. Once the post mortem has been conducted and cause of death determined, they can proceed with a charge of murder or stick with attempted murder.

They'll also need to determine the mental state of the accused. I should think he'll be given a full psychiatric assessment and a history of his mental health will be obtained. He sounds very deranged to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 10:12 AM

His family and friends who were with him say he collapsed from a leg problem and was alive when the van hit him.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 11:14 AM

Professor: [quote] Once the post mortem has been conducted and cause of death determined, they can proceed with a charge of murder or stick with attempted murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 12:40 PM

Apparently the Police applied for and received permission to detain him for four days, expiring tomorrow lunchtime. I imagine this is to give them time to assess his mental health and make a decision on the charges they mean to bring. Terrorism, murder and attempted murder were mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 12:46 PM

It should be taken as given that any terrorist is mentally ill,
but that should not be a mitigating factor.
Criminal charges should still brought.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 01:15 PM

Greg, what is your point?
the testimony of friends and family who were with him at the time has been published.
Am I not allowed to share it?

Are you poised to pounce whenever I post?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 01:48 PM

Are you poised to pounce whenever I post?

No, there aren't enough hours in the day...........

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 02:48 PM

Keith is quite correct, Greg. The family have stated that the man was alive before the attack. However, it's actual cause of death that needs to be verified. For example, despite talking beforehand, he could have subsequently died of delayed shock, a coronary infarction, or some other ailment not connected to the terrorist's actions. I admit, these other scenarios are highly unlikely, but for the case to proceed successfully, these details are vital, and constitute the difference between 'attempted murder' and 'murder'.

With regard to mental capacity, in UK, if a person is considered to be mentally incapable of self-restraint, or psychotic in some way, he/she can be detained indefinitely in a high security hospital (eg Broadmoor) but not sent to one of HM Prisons. The difference lies in the Court's assessment of the psychiatrist's report.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 03:15 PM

He has been charged with "terrorism-related murder and attempted murder". See https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/23/darren-osborne-charged-with-terrorism-related-murder-over-finsbury-park-van-attack

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 06:32 PM

However, it's actual cause of death that needs to be verified.

Which was, and is, my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 03:31 PM

Osborne is said to have been motivated by the BBC docu-drama about the Rotherham child grooming case.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 05:30 PM

Said by?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:47 AM

It was said in court by the prosecution.
Search Google News for "Darren Osborne " "Rochdale" "three girls"
Plenty of hits.
Did you not think of that Greg?

Example,
"Finsbury Park terror suspect 'developed hatred of Muslims after watching hit BBC grooming drama Three Girls'"
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/finsbury-park-terror-suspect-developed-10680150

I am away for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:52 AM

People who want to work themselves into a frenzy of hate will pick up any material that promises to feed that.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 07:53 AM

People who want to work themselves into a frenzy of hate will pick up any material that promises to feed that.

The only people I've seen do that here are those who have a hate for Israel. They are readily identified by the reams of material posted from and links to Israel hate sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 10:24 AM

Same old Boo-Shit. Boring.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 10:33 AM

Same old Greg shit.....vacuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 11:27 AM

Same old same old shit.... tedious

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorist attack on mosque, London.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 01:53 PM

Ignore him (or her) punk. Otherwise another thread spirals down the plughole.
....................
On the news there's a story about a bunch of Eid celebrators in Newcastle hit by a car.

But apparently it turns out not to be a terrorist attack, but a woman who'd been at the celebration who lost control of her car. Which shows how important it is not to jump to conclusions too quickly.