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BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support

akenaton 14 Jul 17 - 04:13 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 03:35 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 03:19 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 03:11 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 03:00 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 02:22 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 11:50 AM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 11:35 AM
akenaton 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM
akenaton 14 Jul 17 - 10:52 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 10:48 AM
Jeri 14 Jul 17 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 10:18 AM
bobad 14 Jul 17 - 10:17 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 09:12 AM
Raggytash 14 Jul 17 - 09:01 AM
bobad 14 Jul 17 - 08:52 AM
Greg F. 14 Jul 17 - 08:50 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jul 17 - 05:57 AM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 03:43 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jul 17 - 03:25 AM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 17 - 12:37 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM
Greg F. 13 Jul 17 - 06:53 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 05:31 PM
Jeri 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM
Greg F. 13 Jul 17 - 04:43 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 03:52 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 17 - 11:41 AM
Greg F. 13 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM
Vashta Nerada 13 Jul 17 - 10:37 AM
Jeri 13 Jul 17 - 09:47 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jul 17 - 04:17 AM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 17 - 12:56 AM
robomatic 12 Jul 17 - 10:40 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jul 17 - 09:29 AM
Iains 11 Jul 17 - 09:16 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jul 17 - 06:37 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 17 - 06:13 AM
Iains 11 Jul 17 - 05:51 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jul 17 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jul 17 - 03:56 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 04:13 PM

When I was an apprentice or slightly after, an old labourer worked with me, he was an ex-railwayman LNER and a Communist Party member, spent about forty years on the railway and ended up Fireman on the "Flying Scotsman" he had lived in London for most of these years, although born and bred in Perth. It was he that got me interested in Socialism.

Anyway he lived through the era of Oswald Mosley and British Fascism, was involved in the Anti Fascist street fighting at that time, Cable Street etc....he told me that the fights were solely between the Fascists and the Communists, well organised battles in which the two sides were pretty evenly matched.......he was amazed at the apparent apathy of the ordinary uncommitted Londoners, "They used to just stand around and watch" he said


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:35 PM

" and bobad picked up on it."
er - no actually
Nobody has eer called my a Jew hater in my life - I would have been kicked out of home on my arse has someone even hinted I was - taht's how serious I take it
Paople have hited that I am an antisemitism occasionally - but "Jew Hater is all Bobad's own work
I suggest he be asked to desist and if he continues he be kicked out on his arse
Stalin and Spain
I've already put a bit of it up but I'm happy to continue
Soviet Russia was one of those participants that insisted that it should be a fight against fascism and not a revolution - the argument was one of the reasons why Trotsky ended up wearing an ice-pick for a hat
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:19 PM

OK, I guess I have to admit that bobad does seem to be an intentional troll. The "jew hater" thing was something you guys had been fussing about long before bobad got involved, and bobad picked up on it. He set the bait, and you guys bit the hook.
If you guys could just stick with rational discussion....
Maybe not. I tried that in the Easter Rising thread last year, and still got burned by bobad. That's when I realized he was evil.
So, about Stalin and the Spanish Civil War?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:11 PM

Sorry Joe - missed a couple
Without bothering to trace "antisemite" - this is Bobad's input to that thread

Isn't that rich coming from a Jew hater.

This perfectly illustrates the persistence and obsessiveness of Jew hating ideologues.

And they try to make everyone believe that they are not Jew haters.....lol.

I don't need anonymity to call proven Jew haters what they are.

Well Shaw, you've been shown to be a proven liar, a bigot, a hypocrite and a Jew hater. Is that succinct enough for you?

For the first time in history, an indigenous people regained self determination on ancestral land they had been exiled from and the Jew haters can't get over it.

That's an example of the typical rhetoric of Jew haters.

By people who know a fuck of a lot more about warfare than a couple of Jew haters on a folk music forum.

Lying and fabricating are the stock-in-trade of Jew haters.


Most people argue on these threads - the "bickering and bad feeling comes in response to tthis abuse - which is the tip of the iceberg for this individual
It may be "silly" to you - not sure the six million would have agreed with you had they not ended up exterminated
I was brought up to respect all races and cultures and when little jobbies like this individual starts slinging his obscenities about it's about time he was stopped
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:00 PM

OK, Jim, you got me. I was bored silly by the bickering in the first Labour thread, so I hadn't bothered with the second. It appears the term "Jew Hater" is used 37 times in the thread, distributed fairly equally between the two sides of the "debate." I think perhaps the term has been thrown back and forth so often, that it's no longer picked up by our search engines.

Still, the "Jew Hater" stuff all seems rather silly to me, and even more inane to bring it over into this thread.
Sheer pettiness, and then some.

So, about the International Brigades....does anybody have anything to say about the International Brigades? Where does Hemingway fit into the story? To what extent was Stalin's USSR involved in supporting the fight against Franco?


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 02:22 PM

" and I rarely find the term used by anyone who has been accused of calling the others such."
Try Labout Party 2 Joe
Bobad uses it at lest half a dozen times there - that took me less than five minutes
Will happily spend a half hour at it and come up with another dozen or so
He also uses "antisemite" regularly - haven't got time to count tham just now - I have an appointment next Thursday
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM

I dunno. I searched and searched under "jew-hater" and "jew hater," and I rarely find the term used by anyone who has been accused of calling the others such. The term is used dozens of times by those who accuse others of using the term. So, what am I to conclude? Maybe if the term were dropped altogether, the problems would mostly go away. Or, if there is something said that might imply that someone is antisemitic, perhaps it would be appropriate to respond to the matter rationally at the time the implication is made, rather than repeating it endlessly out of context?

And try as I might to encourage people to actually talk about the Spanish Civil war in this thread, few of the "usual suspects" seem to be able to carry on a reasonable discussion of the matter, and they almost immediately go back to their usual squabbling - now tied to an allegation that I know nothing about Spain and Portugal, and thus am not qualified to participate in the discussion.

So, what was it about the Franco regime that drew both Republican and Democratic American governments to support it for such a long time?

What amount of support did France and the UK offer to Franco and Salazar?

Was the US support due to the fact that Franco and Salazar offered the US military bases?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 01:56 PM

"WHICH feller? Joey, Boobs or Ake?"
I think two of those are deliberately attempting to fuck up thread that are not confortable with
Don't let them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 01:38 PM

WHICH feller? Joey, Boobs or Ake?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM

C'mon lads - don't let this feller drive another thread into the ground - that's what they do best
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:50 AM

There's quite a difference between using a term and mentioning a term that someone else has used. Calling me a "primary user" of a term that I only ever mention in reaction to its being used as a defamatory term of abuse towards a couple of us is a bit ridiculous really.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:35 AM

More Ake news. Sad.

Does Joey wear boots?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM

I agree with Joe on this one, but his post is probably one of the most provocative on the thread.
Why was it not deleted......geese and ganders come to mind!   Oh better re-phrase that for Mudcat consumption. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 11:10 AM

" real liberal."
For "liberal" read "fascist"
Perhaps another subject for a warning
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:52 AM

Joe is one of a rare breed ....a real liberal.
Read what he says and learn.....most of you are not fit to lace his boots.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:48 AM

Perhaps we can move on from this toxic idiocy and continue the subject with a modicum of decency
I posted this earlier - it mysteriously disappeared -one more time
My father went to Spain as a practicing Catholic appalled at what was happening to the Jewish people both in Europe and on the streets of Britain - any politicisation came later
He was wounded and captured, at first he was tended in a hospital run bu Nuns - no problem - he received humane and careful treatment for his wounds
When he was moved to San Sebastian Prison, he began to question his former loyalty to the church.
The priests there has merged themslves into the fascist regime and all idea that the Republican prisoners should be treated as human beings quickly disappeared
One of the favourite spots of the guards was to irregularly but frequently select a prisoner, take him out to the yard , where the priest would administer the last rites, the guards would line up and take aim - then the 'firing squad' and the priest would fall about laughing as the prisoner was led back to his cell, usually soaked in his own piss
This happened at least half a dozen times to my father (I learned this fairy recently from a historian researching the role of Liverpudlians in Spain - my dad never spoke of it).
The only time I ever saw him weep was when he related the story of a 14 year old Spanish boy who had been suspected of being a runner for the Republican forces.
The somewhat laid-back Italian commandant over the prison decided that the boy was not a great threat, so he ordeered him to be detained with the rest
Unfortunately, a priest recogised the lad as being from his home village and requested that he be executed (for fear that we war would turn out differently than it did) - the boy was shot immediately
Franco's Spain existed far longer than any other fascist state, and at its height, its crimes were similar to those of the Assad regime - like Syria, it continued to exist with the full support of the "decent democratic countries"
The church continued to be an enthusiastic supporter throughout that time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:34 AM

Jojo is honing his trolling skills. I'd say he's fair game now.

Live by the sword, get poked in the bum by the sword...


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:18 AM

" which BTW can be easily backed up by evidence, "
This becomes intolerable
There are no "Jew Haters" or antisemites on Mudcat - there never have been; they would have been hunted out and removed long ago.
Joe accuses Steve of using the term but the serial culprit is allowed to continue unchecked
"Antisemitism" has now become a stock defence of Israeli state terrorism - a form of suppression of all criticism of that subject
Unless Bobad comes up with his evidence that anybody on this forum has embarked on a campaign of hate against the Jewish people, I sugest he be formally asked to desist and if he refuses, be expelled
One of the conditions of joining this forum is that we do not insult each other - about time this was applied to at least the serial offenders
Some of us here take antisemitism seriously enough to object to it being used to pursue personal agendas
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 10:17 AM

you used the term on anyone who you THINK criticises the Jewish state.

Not true, there is legitimate criticism then there is using lies in order to demonize.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:12 AM

Oh, just leave him to prattle on. Notable that even Keith and Teribus don't support him. I expect they have to do that uncomfortable buttock-shuffle thing every time he thinks he's posting "on their side." Perhaps he could get akenaton on board...


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 09:01 AM

The difference being Boobad you used the term on anyone who you THINK criticises the Jewish state.

In fact if anyone mentions Israeli in less than glowing terms you rise up and accuse them of being Jew Haters irrespective of the content of their post.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 08:52 AM

In the face of all this weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth over the term "Jew hater", which BTW can be easily backed up by evidence, if you look up usage of terms like "Nazis", "storm trooper", "jack booter", "Islamophobe", "bigot", "racist" etc. you will detect a strong odour of hypocrisy emanating from the two prominent whiners.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 08:50 AM

"Greggie"? "Stevie"- Gee, Joey - didn't I get a bollocking from you for "calling people names" a while back??

instead of bringing up Trump again?

"Bringing up Trump" was only an example to show up your sophomiric and silly "provoke discussion" scenario.

"If you know something about the Spanish Civil War, why not talk about it

As you obviously know nothing about the Spanish Civil War why not shut the hell up about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 05:57 AM

Accusing me of "using" the term Jew-hater is tremendously unfair of you, Joe. I have only ever referred to the term in posts critical of the main employer of the term on this forum and have never used it to describe anyone else. Many such instances of his use of the term to defame other members of the forum have been allowed to stand, to the eternal disgrace of this forum. That is one brush you should not tar Jim and me with. As I said in a now-deleted post (no complaints on that score, by the way), there are times when you need to cast aside the fact that you may not care much for the two of us. But fair's fair, eh, and we are grown-ups after all. That was an exceptionally careless and unthinking criticism.

Fátima is one of the most egregious examples of Catholic hocus-pocus. I'm amazed that you give it any credence at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:43 AM

I think the Catholic Church has a lot to be embarrassed about in Spain and Portugal, Jim, going back to Ferdinand and Isabella and the Borgias in the 15th Century - and the expulsion of the Moors and Jews, and the Spanish Inquisition.

Fatima in Portugal is an interesting phenomenon, the reported appearance of the Virgin Mary in 1917, with a strong anti-communist message. To this day, a military honor guard is part of the nightly procession at the shrine, led by a uniformed soldier carrying a neon cross like a flag. I do relish the irony of a Catholic shrine with a Muslim name (Fatíma).

There is a militarism to the Catholic faith in Spain and Portugal, that makes me very nervous. I think it's safe to say the militarism pervades the culture, not just the religion. Salazar and Franco have not been forgotten, and I'm wondering why their memory remains so attractive.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 03:25 AM

"Jew-hater" is used almost exclusively by those Mudcatters that most people think to be liberal."
I've no idea where this acme from Joe
The only individual who uses this as a term of invective is Bobad - the rest of us quote it in response to his insulting and personal behaviour which had continued unchecked for years now
Bobad lashes out with his accusation of "antisemite" and "Jew hater" whenever any of us deem to criticise his favourite terrorist state - those of us at the brunt of his insults quote his having done so - he is the only one to use it as a serious accusation.
I'll be extremely surprised if you can come up with another example.
The fact that Bobad's trollish behaviour has gone unchecked (publicly, that is) unstopped for as long as it has, is as big a mystery to me as are The Marie Celeste and the Bronze Age Forts that scatter The Burren.
I've just put up a statement about your church's involvement in the Spanish Civil War, largely based on my father's experiences at their hands while a prisoner there - I find this morning that that message hes been removed.
It personally attacked nobody - it was straightforward fact - yet it is no longer there.
That shows a somewhat uneven-handed approach in my opinion
WE all lose ouyr rag occasionally during these arguments - it happens with subjects you regard important (especially when those subjects effect you personally)
Only two posters consistently set out to insult and talk down other members of this forum - one a veteran, and one a newbie who has lifted his insulting behaviour wholesale and hasn't the experience nor the imagination to make it his own - neither of these could be described as "liberals"
Even the persistent misuse of the term "liberal" has become an insult in the postings of one rather odd individual - when pressed, he defines it as "fascist"
I enjoy debating with people on this forum - whether they share my views or not - it is a way of re-questioning your own opinions and, at best, sharing information.
Unfortunately, for some it is a game of "winning and losing" at all costs - when that happens, the value is flushed down the jacks, and all too often, the culprit/s complain of "too much information - too many facts".
We all need to clear up out acts - some of us tried with what you described as "childish name-calling" yet one individual persists defiantly (probably because he has little else going for him)
Nuff said
I will re-post my Church/Franco message later and see what happens
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 17 - 12:37 AM

Well, gee, Stevie. I tried searching, and found that the term ":Jew-hater" is used almost exclusively by those Mudcatters that most people think to be liberal. You're one of the primary users of the term.
The fact of the matter is, that it's the so-called liberals who continually act like ants whose anthill got stepped on.
So, how about discussing facts, rather than name-calling?

Same for you, Greggy. If you know something about the Spanish Civil War, why not talk about it instead of bringing up Trump again? Thne Spanish Civil War is a fascinating subject, so there should be no need for you cads to resort to your usual petty squabbling. Where did/does the Spanish monarchy fit into all of this?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM

You have this arse about face, Joe. Combative behaviour here is in itself not objectionable. What is objectionable is when the combative behaviour is peppered with personal insults, misrepresentations and obsessively tedious repetitions. On the other hand, the very definition of trolling requires behaviour deliberately intended to provoke. Look it up. Of course, good rough-and-tumble debate requires some provocation, otherwise it would be repressively dull. But the provocation objected to here by some of us "liberals" (your word, most emphatically not mine) is all too often motivated by bigotry. Calling someone a Jew-hater is both extremely provocative and is born of bigotry on the part of the provocateur. It's trolling, in other words. I'm sorry that you can't see it for what it is (well, unless of course you really believe that the likes of Jim and me are truly Jew-haters). And that sentence is intended to be provocative. But not trolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 06:53 PM

So, Greggy, we're talking about the Spanish Civil War here. Do you know anything about it?

So Joey, re-read 13 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM

And then piss off.

PS: Why was it that the Americans were so friendly to Hitler for so long?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:31 PM

The Spanish Civil War generated a good number of Songs of the Spanish Civil War threads. I think we have a lot to learn on the subject. Many of the songs were hopelessly idealistic, as were the soldiers who came from all over the world to fight on behelf of the Spanish Republic. Maybe it's time for a realistic reassessment.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 PM

"Put the blame on those who do combat, Jeri; not on those who simply express disagreeable ideas."

Duh

Done playing with trolls.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:02 PM

So, Greggy, we're talking about the Spanish Civil War here. Do you know anything about it? Your friend Trump most likely knows nothing about it, so leave him out of it. It took place 1936-39. Many Americans fought on the side of the Republicans, but they lost to the Fascists under Franco. Anti-Franco Americans were considered suspect in the United States, and the U.S. Government played footsie with Franco for decades.
Why was it that the Americans were so friendly to Franco for so long?

Like I say, your friend Trump wouldn't know, even though he calls himself a Republican.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 04:43 PM

The conservatives serve the function of provoking discussion.

So Drumph's and other "conservatives'" serial lies, misinformation, white supremacy & misogyny simply "provoke discussion"?

Unh-hunh. You bet, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 03:52 PM

I think, Jeri, that you may be confused. As far as I know, Mudcat has never had a policy of prohibiting provocative statements. We do, however, attempt to prohibit or at least control combative conduct. There is no doubt in my mind that robomatic and akenation and a few others who express the right-wing perspective, post statements that are frequently and intentionally provocative. And predictably, we have a few from the dominant liberal perspective who respond like an anthill underfoot. Their indignation would almost be precious, if it were not so predictable.
If they wished, the liberals could use the provocation to respond in a rational and informative manner. Jim Carroll responded just now with a link that was very informative: http://www.lse.ac.uk/europeanInstitute/research/canadaBlanch/pdf/press2012/16Apr12WalesArtsReview.pdf. Others responded with their usual tizzy of indignation.
If we suppressed the conservative provocateurs to satisfy the indignant majority, then the liberals could sit around smugly and admire each other for a while. And within a short time, they'd get bored and infighting would begin, and combat here at Mudcat would be worse than it is now.
So, yeah, I usually find the provocative statements of the conservatives to be disagreeable - but they are very rarely combative. With the way certain liberal Mudcatters get in a tizzy about things, that conservatives have no need to be combative.
Put the blame on those who do combat, Jeri; not on those who simply express disagreeable ideas. The liberals need to learn how to respond with logic and information, not with a frenzy of indignation. The conservatives serve the function of provoking discussion. I don't see that as something that should be suppressed.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 12:46 PM

http://www.lse.ac.uk/europeanInstitute/research/canadaBlanch/pdf/press2012/16Apr12WalesArtsReview.pdf
THIS MIGHT HELP MAKE UP A FEW MINDS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 11:41 AM

I think it's pretty clear too, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM

I don't think it's clear that there was a right side and a wrong side in the Spanish Civil War.

Really Joe? Franco was an OK guy? Guernica was a morally neutral act? My grandfather (from Bilbao) lost a brother at Guernica and two others killed by the Fascists.

Think again.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 10:37 AM

Into the hopper it goes:

I'm an American rabbi. Israel no longer recognizes my religious authority. Washington Post.


And because I know that the rabbis on the list with me aren't actually the only rabbis blacklisted. The blacklist really encompasses all rabbis who don't subscribe to the exclusionary worldview of the Rabbanut. Most of all, I feel sad because it is not really just rabbis who are blacklisted: All progressive-minded Jews have been blacklisted. The Rabbanut has shunned all of us who welcome open questioning, diversity, pluralism and many paths to God and to holiness within our people, and in the world.

I feel sad for all the Jewish people, for the ultra-Orthodox contempt for other Jews who are not like them. I grieve for the way they undermine Jewish unity in the interest of their political power in Israel. This lethal mixture of politics and religion is tearing apart the Jewish world through this list and similar exclusionary tactics ? most notably, the recent agreement between ultra-Orthodox Jews and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to revoke an earlier deal that would have officially sanctioned pluralistic prayer services at the Western Wall.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 09:47 AM

I would ask Joe to be a little less willing to appease trolls.
Don't work so hard at making Mudcat a relatively safe place to verbally beat the shit out of opponents, and pretty much say the same thing, over and over, mainly because of WHO is posting.

OP:
Early Day Motion 126 , tabled in the UK parliament on 04.07.2017 is designed to commemorate the effort made eighty years ago by members of the International Brigades in support of the Spanish Republic's fight against fascism . It also expresses the desire to draw strength from their example in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism. Here is a link to the text of the Early Day motion and a list of current parliamentary supporters. It might help to swell their number if Mudcatters emailed MPs to urge them to add their support. http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2017-19/126


If you want to protect them, maybe you should just give the brawlers a Permathread? for Jewish/anti, so any thread that comes close to mentioning (or implying) Jews doesn't get usurped by obsessives?


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 05:04 AM

I don't agree with you, Joe. The thread was started in good faith by a man who has a very long-running music thread on the Spanish Civil War who asked us to consider contacting our MPs about a possible upcoming motion in Parliament. He did not ask for a bunch of right-wing trolls to take over the thread and destroy its sentiment. A number of the deleted posts were highly and gratuitously offensive. The trolls are generally identifiable by the arrogant manner in which they complain about post deletions. There is ample scope here for anyone who wants to to start a Spanish Civil War thread to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 04:17 AM

"YOU LIKE YOUR 'JEWS' SILENT!"
I'm not the one who invented the term "self-hating Jews" to support policies that the civilised people of thew world find obnoxious and inhuman
My father went to Spain because of what was happening to the Jewish people in Germany - I met several Israeli freedom fighters, one of whom shared a cell with him in San Sebastian Prison
My grandmother was arrested for throwing a stone at Mosely at an Anti-Jewish Rally (the family story that the stone hit its mark was confirmed by a member of this forum)
I dated the daughter of a Holocaust survivor - we fell out because I was shocked when her mother when she compared the Israeli regime to the Nazis - I didn't know any better in those days.
I'm sick and tired of being called "a Jew Hater" by an Anti Semite on this thread because I, along with Jews throughout the world, are critical of what has happened to Israel in the hands of right wing regime after right wing regime, despite the clause in the accepted definition that states clearly that "it is antisemitic to hold Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
I have never accused The Jewish People collectively responsible" for anything and have offered a generous donation to any charity named by anybody who can show I have - no takers so far.
To accuse critics of Israel of being antisemitic is antisemitic by definition - Bobad does that, Robo is now beginning to do that - my offer still stands.
My Jews are not their Jews - I stand with the 'Jews for Justice, and the Rabbis for Justice' nd the Holocaust Survivors who compared the behaviour of Israel in Gaza to that of the Nazis, and Mordachai Venunu, who spent 18 years under house arrest, 11 of those in solitary confinement, for telling the world what it needed to know, that an unstable extremist right wing state had nuclear weapons - they are my Jews.   
Israel has become an antisemitic state because it bases its entire defence of its behaviour on accusations that its opponents are antisemitic for condemning its behaviour in Gaza - the civilised world condemns its behaviour in Gaza.
Israel has recently confirmed it's antsemitic position through its u-turn over events in Hungary - a lift from another thread
"The ultra-right there issued an antisemitic poster attacking Jewish billionaire George Soros
Human rights Watch compared the poster to Nazi propaganda, Yossi Amrani, Israel's ambassador agreed and demanded a ban on the poster   
His bosses in Israel endorsed the call, but U-turned when they found that Soros gave money to charities which are critical of Netanyahu - they are now defending the poster.
So the Israeli regime has finally come out publicly declaring their own well-being to be more important than that of the Jewish People
That's from today's Times, by the way"

I had no intention of bringing this argument to this thread - Robo has done it and I feel the need to respond
My father went to Spain because of what was happening to the Jews - my grandmother was arrested because of the antisemitism that was showing its evil face on the streets of Liverpool - Jewish friends and fellow travellers have been part of my life for most of my life - I believe they came to my parents wedding and my Christening, I met two Israeli freedom fighters who fought for the news State of Israel at my father's funeral
When members of this thread who, contrary to the European definition, can't tell the difference between the actions of the Israeli regime and the interests of the Jewish People as a whole, accuse me of antisemitism I will respond
There's and end to it, as far as I'm concerned.
I've just returned refreshed from seeing the wonderful new Joe Heaney film, 'Song of Granite'
So if anybody wants to take up the argument about the Spanish Civil War, perhaps we can do so without trying to talk down to people (if the cap fits....)
By the way Robo "YOU LIKE YOUR 'JEWS' SILENT!"
Far from it - my Jews are the ones who are branded "self hating" because they refuse to be silent about the crimes of the people who refer to them as "self haters" and "self loathers" - this includes the Holocaust survivors who signed the petition, Albert Einstein and his friends who warned abut the rise of Zionist fascism, the ex heads of Mossad who compared the present regime the behaviour of the present Israeli regime to that of the Nazis..... and every brave Jew who has risked being branded antisemitic because they are appalled at what has happened to the State of Israel - they are "my Jews" - hardly "silent"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 12:56 AM

I'm thinking maybe the moderators have been too active in this thread. I don't think it's clear that there was a right side and a wrong side in the Spanish Civil War. There's still a lot of room for debate. Some of the deletions in this thread are justifiable, but I would ask the moderators to be a little more moderate in their moderation.
A lot of important folk music stems from the Spanish Civil War, so I think it's right for me to speak up on this.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jul 17 - 10:40 PM

When the trolls and goose-steppers on this forum accuse me of being a "Jew hater" and an "Anglophobe" I remember that their England isn't mine and their Jews are not my Jews.

Given the multiple messages that have been eliminated from this thread without cause, it becomes clear that YOU LIKE YOUR 'JEWS' SILENT!


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 09:29 AM

I started going there in 1969.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 09:16 AM

Steve you went to the prospect more than 10 years after my visits.
When I was there the swanky eatery was upstairs and downstairs on a friday saturday night a hawaian group played, fenced in by scaffold poles. They played along to the rugby songs being sung in a jam packed bar. It would take 20mins to reach the bar and a further 20 to get served. The secret was to arrive early and get sufficient crates to last the evening.

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=119297


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 06:37 AM

Try harder.

I drank in the Prospect many times. We held our Lancastrians' Association (of the University of London) meetings there. I was the treasurer. We once treated Thora Hird and her husband to dinner as our special guests. I sat next to Thora all evening. She was great company, solid Lancashire with just a touch of posh. She complained about the cheese being overripe! The trouble with that pub was the 96 steps up to the street from the platform at Wapping tube station. We also drank at the Mayflower in Rotherhithe, washing crusty white bread and finest cheddar and chutney down with real ale (best meal on the planet when you're a bit peckish) and I remember sitting by the river at The Angel supping icy pints of lager after work on those extremely hot 1976 evenings. It just had to be cold, hence lager.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 06:13 AM

What consensus Iains?
Nobody was ever asked to vote on the appeasement of fascism, or is there a gap in my knowledge of the history of the period?
I prefer the views of the British people ispired by the actual events at the time they were happening rather than those generated by an agenda driven press trying to defend the crimes of past administrations who were happy to let the Jews go to their deaths in millions rather than disturb the political and economic status quo and the finer feelings of 'Herr Hitler'
The end result was yet another war ? after our politicians had promeised us that the last bloodbath was "the war to end all wars"
You people really do put your weight behing the 'right people' what with your fire refugees sleeping in the parks rather than allowing them the use of empty buildings, and your poor misjudged Assad accused falsely of mass murder and torture
Give us a break, will you
The Spanish Civil War was sold out by the democracies (sic) because, right up to five-to-midnight, they still considered the Nazis "the bulwark against Bolshevism"
Jim Carroll
Would that Sian Phillips the one who gave that wonderful performance as the evil Livia in 'I Claudius'


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 05:51 AM

Jim Unlike you I try to look at the various points of view and see where the consensus lies. The paper I quoted may be unknown to you but it is the content that is critical. It agrees with the premise that Britain was not prepared to be drawn into a regional war that would end in defeat. You can call it appeasement if you wish. The objective was to keep out of it entirely and prepare for an inevitable war.It is also critical to appreciate the extent to which the great depression and isolationism of the US impacted on military preparedness. You keep stressing appeasement as some sort of dirty word, the reality is that it was the only practical option available. The British government could hardly declare "time out" while they prepared for the inevitable.
Another view.
http://www.internationalschooltoulouse.net/ibhistory/spain/phillips_ex_essay.htm

I preferred the Prospect of Whitby on Wapping Wall, although the ankle deep glass on the floor at the end of the evening was a bit of a challenge.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 05:39 AM

I vaguely remember that pub, Jim, as it one of the pubs we'd start our last-day-of-term pissups back in the day, probably coming to a staggering finish at the Hollands. One of those Whitechapel pubs had amazing Victorian gents toilets, more sculptured porcelain and polished brass than in the rest of London put together, but I can't remember if it was that one. Mine was actually the Exmouth Arms, popularly known as the Hollands after the Victorian family and their descendants who ran it, just off Commercial Road on Exmouth Street, the other side of the road from Cable Street. I think it officially changed its name to the Hollands in the seventies as no-one ever called it anything else! Sadly gone now. Not quite as notorious as the Blind Beggar which has dined out on the fact that Ronnie murdered a rival in cold blood in the saloon bar. It wasn't entirely sensible to go into those pubs in the early seventies shooting your mouth off about the Krays, just as you wouldn't go into a bar in Palermo rattling on about the Mafia!

Thanks for the great post by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 03:56 AM

"my favourite pub, alas a pub no more, was a habitat of the Krays too"
I assume you are referring to 'The Blind Beggar' on Whitechapel Road - we recorded many Travellers on a piece of waste ground on a road running parallel to the main road and drank with them a few doors down from 'The Beggar' (which shares its name with one of the oldest songs still in currency among Irish Travellers in the 70s - we used the 'Blind man and dog' woodcut to illustrate our first album of Traveller songs, 'Early in the Month of Spring')
The East End of London had a proud record of anti-fascist activity in the Thirties - we used to go to an Irish music session in a pub named (ironically) The Britannia, opposite Cable Street - that street proudly boasts a blue plaque commemorating THE BATTLE of CABLE STREET when ordinary British people, dockers, costermongers, shopworkers...... ordinary British people, political and non-political, took to the streets in their thousands to oppose marching fascists and baton-wielding mounted police protecting them.
That's the militant Britain I am proud to be part of and remember - not the nodding dog ceremonies commemorating the leaders who sat back in the comfort and safety of their bases, fighting among themselves and sending the wrong shells and information to the front, condemning an entire generation of young men to their deaths in the mud of Europe.
My first landlord in London, a doctor named Hugh Faulkner, a man you would never fail to recognise as being Jewish, quietly volunteered to infiltrate The Blackshirts and attend their meetings in order to report where their marches were to take place in advance so they could be opposed
When the trolls and goose-steppers on this forum accuse me of being a "Jew hater" and an "Anglophobe" I remember that their England isn't mine and their Jews are not my Jews.
My Jews are Hugh Faulkner and the Les Parrington (who fled South African Apartheid Regime in order to escape an arrest warrant for opposing that regime) - or all the holocaust survivors I met in Manchester - their Jews are the regime that drugged and kidnapped my personal hero, Mordechai Vanunu and imprisoned him for seventeen years, eleven of those in solitary confinement, for telling the world what it desperately needed to know.
My England is that of the dock workers I befriended when I was an apprentice - those who worked in foul, health-destroying conditions and fought to change those conditions, turning being a docker from the old "pen system" where workers were selected on a daily basis like animals being picked for slaughter, to a dignified and respected occupation where they went home with a living wage at the end of the week (until the docks were finally closed as wealth producers for Britain and sources of employment for Liverpool people, and eventually turned into museums and homes for the wealth by Thatcher and her predecessors)
Now I'm getting on in years, hardly a week goes past when I don't think with pride of the sacrifice made by my old man and his mates to try and stop fascism getting a hold in the world
You may stick your accusations of "Jew hater" and "Anglophobe" up until it knocks your hat off - they remind me of the different values held in the two Britains that have been created so that those who already more than enough have, can accumulate even more
Have a good day y'all - off to Galway to see the new Joe Heaney film
Jim Carroll


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