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BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:23 AM "I haven't called anyone a name in this set of exchanges " Sorry Steve- that should have been Greg L a heat-of-the-moment attempt so stop this degenerating into a melee - my apologies Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: sapper82 Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:52 AM But what did the International Brigades actually achieve? First, the achieved the prolongation of a nasty, brutal war. Second, by that first achievement they ensured the deepening of an intense enmity that still lasts to this day. Third, They provided a training ground for the German National Socialists to home their battle plans, including the use of air power. Fourth, they ensured that a rival socialist group, the Marxist/Stalinist communists, would become defined as the de facto opposition to National Socialism. Fifth, they created a situation where the Moscow inspired Commissars were, effectively, given a free hand to kill off anyone who appeared to offer a threat to the supremacy of Moscow. It is said that the Commissars in Spain killed more Italian Communists than Mussolini himself. I do not say the above to denigrate the undoubted courage, bravery and determination of those men and women who made up the International Brigades, but merely to suggest that, by naively interfering in a foreign war, they may have made matters worse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Jul 17 - 07:14 AM Well if some or all of what you say is partly or wholly true you are talking about unintended consequences that had been unpredictable, which applies to all conflicts when you think about it, and I think "naive" is a bit strong. Whatever bad things were unintentionally exacerbated by the International Brigades, they have left us an enduring legacy, as with the Cable Street anti-Mosley protest, of ordinary working people showing that they are not prepared to tolerate fascism. A pretty big positive, I'd say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 17 - 08:29 AM "But what did the International Brigades actually achieve?" If people did nothing on the basis of what they might or might not achieve the bad guys would win every time They tried and failed - better than not trying I know where my respect goes. This "foreign war" bit really gets me The matter only arises when we as a nation has nothing to gain from getting involved As far as the people who participated were concerned, it was a war against fascism - whether that particular fight was won or lost once and for all can be judged by what's happping on the streets of the US and Britain today Maybe it's time to turn and look the other way again http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-vote-hate-crime-rise-100-per-cent-england-wales-police-figures-new-racism-eu-a7580516.html Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Greg F. Date: 16 Jul 17 - 09:05 AM I really don't mean to cause offense Well then, Joey, YOU LOSE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 17 - 09:40 AM Perhaps if Sapper 82 clarified his position we might cut to the case Can we assume that if Germany had stuck to Czechoslovakia, Poland and the Jews that could still have been regarded as "a foreign war" we need not have bothered and stayed at home safe in our beds- do I have that riht? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: punkfolkrocker Date: 16 Jul 17 - 11:04 AM I'd planned on watching a war movie* last night, but this thread was far too entertaining... [* "There Be Dragons" (2011) Director: Roland Joffé Arising out of the horror of the Spanish Civil War, a candidate for canonization is investigated by a journalist who discovers his own estranged father had a deep, dark and devastating connection to the saint's life. mixed reviews - possibly a boring plodder of a film - 2 versions, one a shorter re-edited USA re-release.. This thread put me in mind to find it again before it goes off Amazon Prime streaming.. Oh well.. maybe next weekend....] |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 17 - 12:14 PM A wonderful movie Chanel I just discovered (Talking Pictures) has The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp (a must for our flag-waggers) and The Front Page later this week Things is lookin' up Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: punkfolkrocker Date: 16 Jul 17 - 12:47 PM I watched a 1980s re run of Blimp at an Arts cinema in my 20s and thought it was brilliant.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Greg F. Date: 16 Jul 17 - 12:59 PM "Do what I say, not what I do, it seems" -Jim Carroll Absolutely, Jim that's Joe in a nutshell: complaining when others do the exact same thing he gets away with. If you recall, he's the one that initiated the current bout of name-calling. And his rationale: "Just how SHOULD I respond, Jim?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:08 PM ""Just how SHOULD I respond, Jim?"" I think you've made your point excellently I do love the silences when you ask a question - don't you Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Greg F. Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:12 PM I do love the silences when you ask a question - don't you Perhaps I should repeatedly taunt him with "Why don't you answer the question??" |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: GeoffLawes Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:19 PM Early Day Motion 126 , tabled in the UK parliament on 04.07.2017 is designed to commemorate the effort made eighty years ago by members of the International Brigades in support of the Spanish Republic's fight against fascism . It also expresses the desire to draw strength from their example in the continued fight against fascism, racism, xenophobia and totalitarianism. Here is a link to the text of the Early Day motion and a list of current parliamentary supporters. It might help to swell their number if Mudcatters emailed MPs to urge them to add their support. http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2017-19/126 only 25 MPs have signed so far |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Greg F. Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:38 PM You got one helluva nerve, Geoff, trying to get this thread back on track like that. Maybe Joe won't stick his two cents' worth in and derail it again- one can only hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: robomatic Date: 16 Jul 17 - 02:02 PM Jim: You have trotted out the following on many occasions in multiple threads like it has some meaning: I have made this offer to all the posters and I now make it to you (I never believed I would ever have to If you can provide one single shred of evidence of my hating Jews - ever - I will make a generous donation to any named charity - even Opus Dei, if that is your choice Bobad, Akenaton, Robo - and now Joe Offer 1) I have confined my comments to your posts. I am not a mind reader. And I have not called you a 'hater' and my thoughts on the matter are printed in my longish post above, which I doubt you read through. As I've mentioned in another forum, you don't respond to my posts so much as repeat yourself in a thrown-spaghetti-against-the-wall fashion. 2) Your post is reminiscent of the holocaust deniers who offered a large sum of money to anyone who could 'prove' that Jews were gassed at Auschwitz. I am not calling you a Holocaust denier, I'm just sayin'... 3) I do not hate you and my emotional response to you is not conditioned on whether or not I am Jewish. You're just this name I know in this restricted agora of digital technology. You appear to have a sense of humor which is a plus. But this is not an example of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: robomatic Date: 16 Jul 17 - 02:11 PM Steve Shaw you writted: I haven't called anyone a name in this set of exchanges I don't think, Jim, I have to go by my memory here, you wrote a short piece in this thread where you combined my moniker with someone else's in a sort of humorous manner. You proposed using it as a substitute for my forum name (I took it as a compliment, BTW). But then the anonymous mod took out your post and some of mine. Cheer up, you've got all day! |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: bobad Date: 16 Jul 17 - 02:31 PM In my lexicon "Jew hater" and "anti-Semite" are synonymous" and applies to anyone making anti-Semitic statements, examples of which can be found in the commonly accepted Working Definition of Antisemitism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:04 PM And the last itmen thyere is that you don't blame the Jewish people for the actions of the Israeli government] You do this constantly by accusing every single critic i Israel of antisemitism Until you stop this you have no grounds for accusing anyboy of antisemitism The fact that it as an automatic nknee jerk response to criticism of their policy makes any definition workable - if Israel can't play by the rules why should anybody else Even their Minister of Justice has declared that it is antisemitic to criticise Israel - that makes her an antisemite. "And I have not called you a 'hater' " #No Robo - you haven't had tha balls to - but you have oersistently made it clear by your remarks that you belive I am. But your ****** money where your mouth is, and if you prove your point I'm happy to make good my promise This promise ahs been running for several years now - just as you and your type have been every time you are challenged to produce an honest answer How long do you want me to hold my breath? All it takes is one single sentence - one example of my denigrating the Jewish people Clock's ticking.........!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: robomatic Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:35 PM Jim writted: - - - - - - - - - - - - "And I have not called you a 'hater' " #No Robo - you haven't had tha balls to - but you have oersistently made it clear by your remarks that you belive I am. But your ****** money where your mouth is, and if you prove your point I'm happy to make good my promise This promise ahs been running for several years now - just as you and your type have been every time you are challenged to produce an honest answer How long do you want me to hold my breath? - - - - - - - - - - - - "By their works you shall know them." (Time to go back to using spell check my brother) |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: robomatic Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:59 PM bobad: Your link to the above document defining anti-semitism is a new one for me. I believe you quoted from it in the 'Anti-Semitism' thread of a couple months back. But I don't recall a link to the document itself. Looks like a good study item for me. For me there is a difference between "Jew-hater" and "Anti-semite". "Jew-hater" is emotional and in your face. "Anti-semite" can be theoretical. It can be a tasteless joke. I go back to when I was a student moving into a hispanic dorm. One of my new friends told me how if someone made a comment he didn't like about chicanos he checked to see if that person was smiling or not (neither of us were aware of the almost identical observation in The Virginian: "When you call me that, smile!" "Anti-semite" can be genteel, suitable to a gentleman's club, spoken of with an aperitif in hand. "Jew-hater" is street. I think "Jew-baiter" is more appropriate to some of the folks in these threads. It's a technique to get your goat. The same folks are going not-so-subtly anti-Catholic on Joe for the same reason. In the meantime they beat their breasts about being called on their own proclivities. They can't help themselves. The source of their arguments are tired ideologies. And, in the case of this thread, finding relevance by piggy-backing onto AN EIGHTY YEAR OLD cause. What is that old English expression that is getting bruited about nowadays? "Keep calm and carry on!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 17 - 05:14 PM A quick show of hands should settle who is the"Jew Hater" here Israel's leader has just changed his mind and ordered his ambassador to support Hungary's extreme right in its distribution of an anti-Semitic poster – Israel's policy is now openly anti-Semitic Bobad supports them in this – do you condmn them Robo? Yes or no will do nicely Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Jul 17 - 05:43 PM Robomatic is nobbut a skittish gadfly-type, Jim, with no understanding of the issues he's posting about. He has a touch of the balletic prima donna about him and he's a troll to boot. Ignore. By the way, boobs, no definition, working, defunct or otherwise, has ever referred to the term Jew hater. That is entirely your term. And no-one else's. It's a shame how you can't see that it isolates you, even from your alleged allies, who are sensible enough to clench their buttocks and shut their mouths whenever you are stupid enough to use the term. You're on your own, aren't you. But you're just a bit too thick to notice. Hope this helps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: bobad Date: 16 Jul 17 - 05:44 PM Bobad supports them in this Fuck off arsehole! |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: bobad Date: 16 Jul 17 - 05:46 PM Carroll supports neo-Nazi Jew haters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Jul 17 - 05:54 PM Two exceptionally profound posts from boobs. Should suit the meretricious robocop down to the ground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Greg F. Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:07 PM Oy! Lads! This thread has bugger-all to do with Jews/Jew-Haters/Nazis et. al. I know Joe and BuBo are hopeless, but can't the rest of youse put a sock in it??? And now, back to actual subect of the thread..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: robomatic Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:17 PM Bobad supports them in this – do you condmn them Robo? Yes or no will do nicely Jim Carroll In other words: "Hop to it, Jew!" Do you even read your posts before you hit send? |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Greg F. Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:23 PM fucking hopeless.................. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:30 PM You are a prime contender for the award of prize of vacuous empty-headed twat of the year, robowhatevvah. Why don't you look stuff up before you post? Have you got Joe Offer syndrome? |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: punkfolkrocker Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:37 PM I think it's kinda cool me being 1/4 jew... The 4 quarters of my body can take it in turns in hating on each other, or being self hating... 😜 .. oh yeah.. the spanish civil war.. If I'd been a young idealistic intellectual leftie back then, I'd probably have liked to have volunteered... ...except for my flat feet... and I don't travel too well with my irritable bowels.. but nice idea though.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:44 PM You didn't get irritable bowels in those days. Irritable bowels is caused by weak beer, fish fingers and turkey twizzlers. And by not drinking enough builders' tea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: bobad Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:48 PM Two exceptionally profound posts from boobs. Of course Shaw has no comment on the "Made-Up-Shit" lying post from his pal Carroll whose intent is to smear and Jew bait - two peas in a pod. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: robomatic Date: 16 Jul 17 - 07:23 PM precisely, bobad. And once more into the breach. . . "MARY MCGREGOR!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Jul 17 - 07:47 PM Don't mess with their tutus... |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 17 - 07:48 PM I've asked you peole a question All your infantile name calling does not change one iota the fat that this is what you people are supporting The Times Tuesday, July 11th ISRAEL BACKS HUNGARY'S 'ANTISEMITIC' POSTER AGAINST SOROS AFTER U-TURN ISRAEL Gregg Carlstrom Tel Aviv Binyamin Netanyahu has overruled his ambassador and backed the right-wing Hungarian government's campaign against the Jewish billionaire George Soros. Official posters denouncing Mr Soros have been described by Hungary's main Jewish organisation as antisemitic. Yossi Amrani, Israel's ambassador in Budapest, urged Viktor Orban, the prime minister, to remove them. "Beyond political criticism of a certain person, the campaign not only evokes sad memories but al¬so sows hatred and fear," Mr Amrani said in a statement. His bosses in Israel initially en¬dorsed the call, but later issued a clarification, saying that the Hungarian-born financier threatened democracy by funding charities critical of Mr Netanyahu. Mr Orban's government has repeatedly attacked Mr Soros and is trying to close down a liberal university that he set up and funded. It has accused him of trying to flood Europe with immigrants. It has paid for billboards across the country denouncing Mr Soros as a threat to national security. "Let's not allow Soros to have the last laugh," reads one, next to a photo of the smiling banker. The head of Hungary's Jewish community said that the billboards were antisemitic, while Human Rights Watch compared them to Nazi propaganda, which often featured "the laughing Jew". Mr Orban wrote a letter to Jewish leaders last week saying: "My duty is to defend our homeland and citizens." Israel is normally quick to condemn antisemitism, but this time the government distanced itself from the ambassador's comments. "In no way was the statement meant to delegitimise criticism of George Soros, who continuously undermines Israel's democratically elected govern¬ments by funding organisations that defame the Jewish state," Emmanuel Nachson, a spokesman for the foreign ministry, said. Mr Netanyahu has not appointed a foreign minister and holds the post himself. He is scheduled to meet Mr Orban in Hungary next week. Israel and Hungary have both passed legislation that seeks to limit the influence of liberal charities such as those Mr Soros funds. Last month Mr Orban praised Miklos Horthy, a Second World War-era Hungarian leader, as an "exceptional statesman". Admiral Horthy was a Nazi ally who passed a series of anti-Jewish laws. Again, Mr Amrani protested, this time on Hungarian television, and several leading Israeli politicians urged Mr Netanyahu to cancel his visit. But the foreign ministry said it was satisfied with Hungary's clarification—that Mr Orban was only praising the "positive periods" in his predecessor's history, not the "negative periods". Israel used to follow local Jewish communities in deciding whether to meet parties with dubious pasts. It kept its distance from the National Front in France because Jewish leaders shunned the group. But Mr Netanyahu and his government have sought to build ties with far-right factions across Europe, viewing them as useful diplomatic allies. Last year, the head of Austria's Freedom Party spent a week in Israel on an official visit. The Israeli foreign ministry officially boycotts the party, which was founded in 1956 by former Nazis. You scumbags have no interest in the Jewish people - your concern is to protect the Israeli regime and their "neo-Nazi Jew hater" friends Game, set and match, I think I do hope you are following all this Joe and I trust you are gong to apologise - or not, as the case may be Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: robomatic Date: 16 Jul 17 - 08:47 PM Acts of State may be debatable, controversial, or even wrong: Eamon De Valera pays condolence call on German legation 1945 But as for JCarroll: the abuse tirade goes on: I consider: "You scumbags have no interest in the Jewish people" to be demonstrably false. |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Jul 17 - 09:50 PM Golly, gee. I took a day off to go to Mass and a song circle, and look at all the responses I got. I even got a song written about me by some cowardly anonymous idiot who's afraid to give his/her name. Here's Jim Carroll, proving that he actually may be a Jew-hater after all:
Yes it is Joe - that's why the reasonable members of this planet are organising a boycott to stop what is happening to the Palestinian people It is like saying that is impossible to have a reasonable attitude that is acceptable to both sides when Nazism was on the rise in Germany I don't wish to appease both sides i I want tne killing and the ethnic cleansing in this genocidal war to stop You people have reduced this conflict to the Israeli regime and their victims - not the mass of humanity of whatever religious persuasion or ethnic make up who occupy the area - the Israeli and the Palestinian people. Like all wars, it's the politicians who send the troops into battle and the people who die - you judge the conflict on its ethical merits. You may not have meant to cause offence , but by Christ, you most certainly have You opened up by blamming the "liberals" for slinging the term "Jew Hater " about You went on to say you could find no other examples When they were listed for you, you shrugged and minimised the term into silliness or some such phrase and absolved the main culprit by sayin he only picked up the term from someone else Nowhere do I see an apology for your behaviour or a withdrawal od your claims You have joined the troll choir and added that I can't be fair You don't hide your light under a bushel - do you To say I am disappointed would eb to understate my feelings My offer stands to you as it does to all the others Name your charity I really have had a bellyful of the dishonesty that has become a permanent part of these discussions Jim Carroll Note how he compares the Israelis to Nazis. To compare Israel to Nazi Germany is well at the top of the scale of being egregiously offensive. It's just not something that civilized people do, Jim. Am I right in thinking that sort of anti-semitism could be considered a criminal offense in some countries? But still, I don't actually believe Jim to be a Jew-hater. I just think he is so certain that there is no possibility that BOTH sides can be right, and BOTH sides need to compromise to accommodate their conflicting needs. Note, however, Jim's annoying and simplistic habit of considering nations and churches and other entities as monolithic - completely ignoring the diversity of opinion and action that exists within every group. That monolithic viewpoint is the foundation of bigotry. Jim's a good guy and I think he should be smart enough to see beyond that. In Israel, the nation's dealings with the Palestinian people is a very controversial issue that has not been resolved in the 70 years of the nation's history. A great many Israelis are very sympathetic to Palestinian concerns, but Jim's perspective allows them no voice. Jim apparently has a dualistic mind that allows him to see only black and white, good and evil. That sort of dualism leads to trouble, since it does not allow for compromise, or for respect of opponents. I hope some day that Jim can develop a broader, more tolerant vision. I'm a moderate, and I have a nasty habit of seeing many sides to almost every issue. That makes me insufferably wishiy-washy, like my patron saint Charlie Brown. And I have another fault - I fail to take Internet discussions very seriously, because they are invariably dominated by the bigoted bullies with the loudest mouths and the least amount of intelligence. So, I see so much of what they say as just plain silly. My saying that makes them crazy, of course, as you can see above. And so, I rely on my other patron saint, Alfred E. Neuman of Mad Magazine, whose slogan is "What? ME worry?" I see some accusations above that I'm "trolling" this thread. I don't think that's true. I'm just daring to question the bullies who dominate almost every political thread here. -Joe Offer- So, Jim, since you proved the "Jew-hater" allegations to have credence, you should be the one to make a contribution to the charity of your choice. I'd suggest ADL - the Jewish Defense League. I consider your suggestion of the ultraconservative Catholic Opus Dei organization to be offensive - yet another proof of your monolithic, bigoted point of view. And you used the same bigoted viewpoint to condemn current-day Americans for what happened in Spain in 1936. You're some piece of work, Jim. Try thinking of being a bit open-minded for a change.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: INTERNATIONAL BRIGADES Urge MP support From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Jul 17 - 04:40 AM I would like to say that I am very, very sorry for having posted the message just above. I took advantage of an opportunity to play "gotcha," and I got carried away. I did not understand how hurtful this "jew-hater" label was to Jim, and how it would affect him. I have known Jim here at Mudcat for many years, and I have always thought the world of him. He is an excellent folk music researcher and a great source of information - and he is generous and helpful to a fault. But on top of that, he is a man of integrity and a man with a big, big heart. I don't always agree with him on political issues, but I admire his passion and his honesty. And no, I do not believe that Jim Carroll is a Jew Hater, or that he would ever be a "hater" of anyone. He's too good a man. I'm very sorry that I hurt you, Jim. I hope you'll forgive me. -Joe Offer- And now I'm going to close this thread, to put the hurtful comments to rest. -Joe- |