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BS: Clerical Abuse of Children

Raggytash 08 Aug 17 - 02:22 PM
mg 08 Aug 17 - 02:18 PM
Joe Offer 08 Aug 17 - 01:32 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 17 - 08:07 AM
akenaton 08 Aug 17 - 06:13 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 17 - 06:00 AM
Joe Offer 08 Aug 17 - 05:44 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 17 - 04:34 AM
Joe Offer 08 Aug 17 - 03:36 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 17 - 03:27 AM
Joe Offer 08 Aug 17 - 01:47 AM
mg 08 Aug 17 - 12:13 AM
Joe Offer 07 Aug 17 - 09:22 PM
Greg F. 07 Aug 17 - 05:53 PM
akenaton 07 Aug 17 - 04:34 PM
Kenny B 07 Aug 17 - 03:46 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 17 - 03:09 PM
Kenny B 07 Aug 17 - 02:43 PM
Iains 07 Aug 17 - 01:09 PM
akenaton 07 Aug 17 - 12:39 PM
Greg F. 07 Aug 17 - 11:43 AM
Jeri 07 Aug 17 - 10:31 AM
Greg F. 07 Aug 17 - 09:44 AM
Kenny B 07 Aug 17 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 17 - 07:11 AM
Iains 07 Aug 17 - 05:28 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 17 - 05:08 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Aug 17 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 17 - 04:05 AM
Iains 07 Aug 17 - 03:29 AM
Joe Offer 07 Aug 17 - 01:31 AM
Donuel 06 Aug 17 - 05:23 PM
Greg F. 06 Aug 17 - 04:02 PM
mg 06 Aug 17 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 17 - 02:02 PM
akenaton 06 Aug 17 - 01:17 PM
Greg F. 06 Aug 17 - 11:34 AM
Kenny B 06 Aug 17 - 10:46 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 17 - 08:00 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 17 - 07:53 AM
akenaton 06 Aug 17 - 07:46 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 17 - 07:39 AM
akenaton 06 Aug 17 - 07:33 AM
Joe Offer 06 Aug 17 - 07:18 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 17 - 04:52 AM
mg 06 Aug 17 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 17 - 03:37 AM
robomatic 05 Aug 17 - 11:50 PM
Joe Offer 05 Aug 17 - 10:12 PM
robomatic 05 Aug 17 - 09:41 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 02:22 PM

There is a huge difference Joe, in the case you cited the perpetrator has been punished for his crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: mg
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 02:18 PM

Yes. It is absolutely necessary for them to open these wounds if it helps them or others. Do you read abuse tracker? I do first thing every morning. Every day new stories from new people...not the same people each time. Torture is sometimes involved. Do we want the truth or not? It is horribly inconvenient and hard to process or to believe nice father otoole did that but if he did his victims have an absolute right to speak up. The financial aspect is an unfortunate consequence of this. I wish it was not a factor but it is. It is a very very sick church..not the only one to be sure. I want the church to go way back to before constantine and look for true roots in england especially..seems they had a nice church led by joseph of arimathea as far as i know. Mary magdalene perhaps in france.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 01:32 PM

Certainly, Jim, the primary concern in all this should be for the victim. But does it do the victims any good to keep reopening these wounds on a regular cycle, year after year?

And can you really say that there is no validity to my contention that it is near-impossible to conduct a trial that is fair to anyone, 50 years after the crime took place?

There's a woman in my local parish whose sister was killed by a boyfriend over twenty-five years ago. The boyfriend had never committed a crime before. He spent 25 years in prison, and then was recommended for parole. The victim's sister organized a "victim's rights" group, and the prison guard union backed it up with a lot of money. This group appears at every parole hearing in the state, fighting against all paroles because they are a violation of victim rights.

Is that what "victim rights" are, Jim - eternal vengeance? The woman I know has fed her anger for over a quarter century. Has it done her any good? Since I've worked the last five years for improvement of conditions for people in jail, I am very careful around this angry woman. So far, I have been able to keep a cordial relationship with her - but I'm careful.

There has to be a place of balance in all of this, Jim. Prolonging the anger forever, does not bring peace to anyone.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 08:07 AM

One again, the complicity is being ignored by the usual suspects
The victims apparently are the figments of somebody's imagination
End of story as far as this particular branch of Christianity is concerned
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 06:13 AM

Setting aside The Statute of Limitations, on which I agree with Joe, the Crimes were not committed BY the Church, but by adult males who happened to be employees OF the Church.

Should the law enforcement agencies be held responsible for the actions of every bent or sexually abusive policeman?
The Church can only be faulted on improper vetting of priests(they should have spotted the time bomb within their organisation) and a limited and desperate attempt at damage limitation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 06:00 AM

"Well, no, it's simply an opinion that's different from yours. "
Cop-out again Joe
I am tired of asking you to respond to the rights of the victims - you refuse to do so
That also is beneath contempt
You have put the rights of dirty old men over their rights
Enjoy your Christianity Joe - I'm relieved never to have been tainted by it, those I have been privileged to witness its effects
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 05:44 AM

Jim sez: To support that situation by seeking to hide behind the law is beneath contempt

Well, no, it's simply an opinion that's different from yours. And, of course, to disagree with Jim Carroll is "beneath contempt"....

In the U.S., setting a deadline for claims served as motivation for people to step forward and tell the truth about how they had been molested as children. The dioceses got a lot more claims than they expected. Without a deadline, many claims never get filed, and the damage done lies festering for years. Better for all to be done with it. Fairly, but done with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 04:34 AM

"Do you have any understanding of the concept of statutes of limitations? "
Yes I have Joe - and I also have an understanding that crimes have been committed, victims lives have been ruined and the perpetrators have never been brought to justice
To support that situation by seeking to hide behind the law is beneath contempt
We are talking about an incredibly wealthy and influential institution here - we know the part they played, we know their refusal to co-operate in contemporary investigations, we know of their refusal to meet up with the obligations put on them by law - and we know they seek to cling on to the power that brought about this brutal period of our history.
I suppose you hold groups like those who sought out justice for the Holocaust in the same contempt
I ask again - where do the victims stand in all this - have they no right to acknowledgement?
You have offered none
Should they forget the crimes committed against them - they won't because they can't - nobody ever could
"Ollaimh's" accusations ring louder and louder each time you post
I ask again, where is the juystice for the victims in all this - is their right to justice any less than that of the perpetrators"
Fair trial - my arse
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 03:36 AM

So, Jim, instead of just pronouncing that my statement is inhuman, can you address my reasoning behind my statement? Do you have any understanding of the concept of statutes of limitations? Is it practical to prosecute fifty-year-old crimes, and can a prosecutor conduct a fair trial of a fifty-year-old crime?
I don't know how I could stand trial for something I did fifty years ago. I just can't remember much from then very clearly.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 03:27 AM

"I do think that the books should be closed on the crimes sooner or later."
In these circumstances, that is one of the most inhuman statements you have made to date Joe
These crimes have only come to light comparatively recently - their extent continues to be an almost daily revelation.
Summing them up overall, they are the rape and abuse of children and young people - serious crimes of the type that have torn Britain in two racially to the extent of ruining Britain's economy and bringing about a sharp rise in racist incidents in the wake of Brexit largely when it was generated on the actions of a tiny handful of Asian criminals in areas of England - there it was underage girls, here it was schoolchildren, unmarried mothers, altar-boys - anybody that priests could get their hands on
And they should be forgiven and forgotten?   
Come on Joe - what kind of human being would ever consider such a thing?
Many - most of the victims are still living - they have lived with the consequences of the crimes committed against them, lives have been ruined - even ended, by the damage that was done.
The crimes were committed locally - really?
What about the covering up, what about the continuing refusal of access to information, what about the refusal by the church to acknowledge their part in these assaults - similar to your own refusal to accept that the church has tainted itself to the point of destruction for its part.
Very few prosecutions have taken place- Smythe was the worst, so society leapt on him as a sacrificial lamb, despite the fact that that same society colluded to allow him to continue to abuse - in Ireland and in the United States.
I reckon that, given your forgive and forget attitude, the Hillsborough disaster would have just made it thorough your statute of limitations.
I ask again What about the victims in all this - are they not desrving of closure, having aleardy suffered lifetimes of misery for what happened to them at the hand of the church?
You continue to stone-wall on the part played by the church - you refuse to acknowledge that they refuse to co-operate or admit their guilt.
You refuse to discuss the effect that this has had and is continuing to have on thousands of lives - even though your church is dying here because of what took place.
I take no satisfaction in that - you apparently don't care
This affair will run and run throughout the rest of my lifetime - the State may forget it, the church may continue to refuse to accept responsibility, but the people of Ireland won't
I occasionally find my self at odds with Ollaimh's habit of overstatement, but here I go all the way, there is a great deal of hypocritical apologism connected to this subject, and you reflect a considerable amount of it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 01:47 AM

I don't think your perception is correct, mg. Some auxilliary bishops may be in thrall to the Vatican. Indeed, they may have been placed in a diocese by the Vatican to keep an eye on the local ordinary. But for the most part, local ordinaries are an independent lot. They know they're not beholden to the Vatican, and they generally aren't afraid to express that independence. They tend to have the attitudes of corporate executives, and often can be a bit low on ability as spiritual leaders and "people skills."

And they are rarely "stupid." Still, I tend to take a cynical view of bishops because so many of them seem overly concerned with the material needs of the structure of their dioceses, to the disadvantage of the spiritual needs of Catholics and their communities.

Sean Cardinal Brady was an organization man. He liked things to run smoothly. But he served the structure of the Catholic Church of Ireland, not the Vatican. He resigned in 2014, at the standard retirement age of 75.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: mg
Date: 08 Aug 17 - 12:13 AM

and those irish bishops..some of whom were stupid beyond belief, like brady, were in thrall to the vatican...they were owned lock stock and barrel by the vatican. they were told when to jump and how high. they were ordered, presumably under pain of mortal sin, to defend the church against scandal...it was absolutely the vatican. s..t rolls downhill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 09:22 PM

Steve Shaw says: I hope you're not saying that the book should be closed on crimes because they happened decades ago.

Well, Steve, I do think that the books should be closed on the crimes sooner or later. I think there is wisdom behind enacting statutes of limitations. As time passes, it becomes harder and harder to conduct a fair trial. More and more, it becomes a "he say, she says" proposition - and memories of witnesses fade as the decades pass.

In the U.S., the turning point was 2002. It was handled in different ways in different places, but it was handled decisively. Because of the huge number of crimes by priests discovered, the state legislature here in California enacted a temporary extension of the statute of limitations on crimes against children, and a window was set for claims to be filed. That window has now closed, although some settlements are still being negotiated. I think that a temporary extension was a good way to handle things. It cost us Catholics a lot, but it settled things quite well and gave us some safety from an endless chain of future claims for older and older crimes. It also forced us to develop procedures for both preventing and compensating future crimes. Without that security, it was hard to plan for the future - or to collect money from donors. Current priorities for the Catholic Church in California and immigrants and the homeless, and these are important issues in this Age of Trump. I'm relieved that we have been able to put the child molestation scandal behind us here in the Catholic Church of California. I wish some other state legislatures had acted so decisively.

In another of his solemn condemnations that Jim denies making, he says that I disgracefully, attempt to make this "Irish" rather than the International scandal it has become.

No, Jim, that's not my point. My point is that the crimes were committed locally, and need to be prosecuted and compensated locally. In Ireland, the crimes were committed by Irish priests and some nuns, not by priests from the Vatican or from the U.S. And those criminals were supervised by Irish bishops or religious superiors. The answer to the sex abuse scandal in Ireland is in Ireland, not in the Vatican or in the U.S. The power to stop these crimes was in Ireland, not somewhere else.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 05:53 PM

and now for a Musical Interlude


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 04:34 PM

Anyone who has done any reading on the subject, will know that Pederasty has been rooted in homosexuality since the time of Ancient Greece.

Some much needed information will be found here WIKI

"Some modern observers restrict the age of the younger partner to "generally between twelve and seventeen",[6] though historically the spread was somewhat greater. The younger partner must, in some sense, not be fully mature; this could include young men in their late teens or early twenties.[7]

While relationships in ancient Greece involved boys from 12 to about 17 or 18,[8] in Renaissance Italy they typically involved boys between 14 and 19,[9] and in Japan the younger member ranged in age from 11 to about 19.[10]


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Kenny B
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 03:46 PM

Jim
How About "Ignorance is bliss" tae coin a phrase


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 03:09 PM

Can I suggest that, rather than pander to an obsessive hate merchant, we ignore Ake's attempts to turn this discussion into another of his "queer-bashing" expeditions
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Kenny B
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 02:43 PM

Irish Law Reform Consultation

Very complicated. Appendix A at the end of chapter 5 Makes the whole dilemma more readable

best to skip to :
CHAPTER FIVE: SUMMARY OF PROVISIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS
89
Part I: Preliminary Issues
89
Provisional nature of recommendations
89
The need for a special regime
89
Differing regimes for sexual and non-sexual child abuse
89
The elimination of periods of limitation
89
Part II: Options for Reform
89
Option One: Test of "disability" Statute of Limitations (Amendment) Act, 2000
89
Option Two: Test of "discoverability" Statute of Limitations (Amendment) Act, 1991
89
Option Three: Presumption of incapability; the Ontario model
90
Option Four: Fixed period of time
90
Part III: Scope and Operation of the Test
90
Definition of "non-sexual abuse"
90
Mixed cases
91
The cause of action
91
Relationship of trust and dependency between the plaintiff and the defendant
91
Vicarious liability and liability of supervisory authorities
91
Retrospective effect of statutes of limitation
91
APPENDIX A: TABLE OF THE LAW OF LIMITATIONS OF OTHER JURISDICTIONS

APPENDIX B: LIST OF LAW REFORM COMMISSION'S PUBLICATIONS

The other 2 papers seem to echo and illustrate Business Insiders article ..... all worth a read


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 01:09 PM

My apologies for adding further complications to what is already a sore subject.
I had no idea the a statute of limitations would apply in child abuse cases. I stand corrected. . In the US it appears a unique case in every state and worldwide the time period varies, and the definitions become increasingly complex. In the case of sexual child abuse a statute of limitations may occur or may not, depending on where the crime occurred.
The link below is a CONSULTATION PAPER ON THE IRISH LAW OF LIMITATION OF ACTIONS ARISING FROM NON-SEXUAL ABUSE OF CHILDREN and contains comparisons worldwide.


http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/consultation%20papers/cpNonSexAbuse.htm

(You probably need to be a lawyer to truly understand what it is stating)

http://www.catholicwhistleblowers.com/whistleblower-essays/statutes-of-limitations-regarding-clergy-sexual-abuse-of-minors

In places there is a clear distinction between Child abuse and child sexual abuse and can lead to very different outcomes.

http://angelroar.com/foradults/c-child-abuse-resources-adults/childabusestatuteoflimitationsbystate


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 12:39 PM

From Joe......"We call it child abuse, or child molestation, or sexual abuse of children. But yes, most of the victims are age 11 or older - but normal homosexuals do not rape 14-year-old boys."

I think the correct term is sexual assault of minors, but whatever, the crimes are committed by adult males upon young males, that is homosexual assault. You deny that it has anything to do with sexual preference, yet almost all the assaults are committed against young males, not young females......please explain this anomaly.

It is irrefutable that there is a huge over representation of homosexuals in the priesthood (approx. 30% against 1.5% in the general population).....please explain this anomaly.

Why do these rates of assault not manifest themselves in other religious denominations.?

The Church is not to blame for the assaults, only for clumsy attempts to cover up and a mad Celibacy rule. They are now between a rock and a hard place, easy meat for the haters of religion who are hugely over represented in this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 11:43 AM

I wonder what THAT signifies...

A minor personality disorder, perhaps? ;>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 10:31 AM

What's the definition of insanity again?
Of course, you don't expect a different outcome, you just want the same old non-reaction over and over.
I wonder what THAT signifies...


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 09:44 AM

Well, both Ake and Greg_F now have broken records in their players.

Well, Joe, since Ake keeps spouting the same BS over and over and over, I can save a great deal of time and effort by re-posting the same reply.

Its simply a matter of efficient use of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Kenny B
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 08:06 AM

This article attempts to explain the scale of and ins and outs of reparations Busines insider aticle on Reparations

Just for Iains t I c
I'm sure the "Via Maria" film would put peoples minds at rest regarding the Inquisitors, they were bunch of naughty but nice old guys


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 07:11 AM

"Reparations punish the organization as priests are probably men of straw."
Reparations are paid for misdoing, mismanagement, injustices.... of the overseers, as well as those responsible
Once more, the actions of the Church are being ignored
They active participated in the activities by covering them up and allowing them to go on.
They need to answer for that fact as well as there being measures put into place to ensure they can's happen again
The victims/survivors appear to have been forgotten in all this - do they not need closure - do the crimes against them not need to be answered for
Would the parents of a child killed by an unpunished drunken driver be told to forgive and forget if they saw that driver driving around as if nothing had happened?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 05:28 AM

Seems to me a little semantic confusion is creeping in. Where is evidence of a statute of limitations being applied to past cases of child abuse? There seems a conflation of crime, punishment,individuals, organizations.
An individual is responsible for the crime and as an individual must suffer the punishment. Reparations punish the organization as priests are probably men of straw.
       How far back in time should the failings of the organization be pursued and punished? Do the descendants of the spanish inquisition deserve reparations?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 05:08 AM

"I hope you're not saying that the book should be closed on crimes because they happened decades ago. "
Perhaps those taking this line should state clearly what statute of limitations should be applied to such crimes - and to what other crimes they should be applied (or should they apply only to those committed by clerics)?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 04:55 AM

I'm not sure I'm hearing you correctly here, Joe. I hope you're not saying that the book should be closed on crimes because they happened decades ago. Recently, a man in his late 70s living locally, well known to most people in our town, was sent to prison for 15 years for sexually abusing underage boys in the late 1950s. He had lived a lie for decades, becoming a highly-respected man in the community and occupying public positions. The sense of betrayal we all felt when he was finally exposed was palpable, which, of course, is nothing when set alongside with the lives he ruined. This is one category of crime that time can never diminish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 04:05 AM

"You insist on blaming the child abuse scandal on "The Church," "
No I don't Joe - I say that the Church played a part in those abuses
I have consistently listed the part it played - ignoring the abuses, even though they were common knowledge, passing on the culprits to places where they were unknown so they could continue their abusing and finally shipping them abroad where their abuses were (presumably) perpetrated on people who didn't matter
That is full complicity and it is what I am accusing the Church, as a body, of doing.
The Vatican hid and continues to to hide the details of those abuses and has yet to admit its part in what happened and apologise for it
It is a "half truth" to claim the victims have been fully compensated - the Irish taxpayer has been given the responsibility of the donkey's share of the bill, the church is still prevaricating.
You and others have suggested that this situation must go on in order for the Church to hold onto its vast wealth.
You refuse even to respond to the facts of the Church's involvement other than to express outrage and make accusations of "half truths and anachronisms"and, disgracefully, attempt to make this "Irish" rather than the International scandal it has become.
The Church I am speaking didn't "die long ago" - modern social development has forced it to make compromises - extremely reluctantly, and these revelations have all but totally undermined its authority - that is not the enlightened change that needs to happen
Atheist that I am, I have no wish to see the destruction of the church - I have far too much respect for the believers I count as friends.
The Church, as a body must no longer be in the position to influence the running of countries in important matters, as it still does.
It has proved itself untrustworthy with children, yet in Ireland, it controls over 90% of our primary schools - many schools are demanding baptismal certificates for entry in places where they are the only alternative - here, we would have to ship a child over forty miles to find a non or multi-denominational school
Unless the activities of the church are confined to the VOLUNTARY spiritual guidance of those who seek it, the Church will implode, leaving a massive gap in the lives genuine believers.
You say my anger concerns something that happened "long ago" - I assume you are claiming the same for all those who have walked away from the churches here, leaving them virtually empty and in the crisis that are now facing
You speak with the smug ignorance of someone far detached from the reality of what is happening
It all seems very different 'Up in Wisconsin' (as Don Lange put it in his song).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 03:29 AM

Joe:"If a person in my employ commits a crime, how much can be taken from me?"

That really neatly summarizes the morality/justice of reparations.
Does the guilt belong to the individual or the organisation?
The only guilt the organisation has is that by association and perhaps lax controls. The modern world is very different from that of one or two generations ago and the glare of publicity shines in places never dreamed of 20,40,60 years ago.
How can the standards of today be applied to events that occurred in a time of totally different mores?
Even if by convoluted logic guilt can be assessed in shekels to be taken from the organisation-is it fitting in view of the fact that such a cost may destroy it?
   My own view is that the horse bolted way back and that trying to destroy the church of today for the errant behaviour of a small minority active in the past is both totally wrong and repugnant.
I say that a lapsed Jesuit educated catholic that has not crosses the door of a church in over 50 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 01:31 AM

Well, both Ake and Greg_F now have broken records in their players.
Ake, with all due disrespect, most of us don't use the word paedophilia. It's a clinical term. Nonetheless, most of us are appalled at the thought of a priest raping a 14-year-old boy, and believe the priest should be sent to prison. We call it child abuse, or child molestation, or sexual abuse of children. But yes, most of the victims are age 11 or older - but normal homosexuals do not rape 14-year-old boys.
So, shut up already.


Jim says: Might surprise you to learn that many Church of Ireland (Prod) churches are being used as music or cultural centres

Doesn't surprise me at all, Jim. I've known that for years. But such churches are still white elephants that cost a lot to maintain, and they sell for very low prices or are given away. In Chicago, the archdiocese has had many beautiful old churches that they can't give to anybody - and the city won't let these landmark buildings be torn down.

The point I've been trying to make, Jim, is that you speak in half-truths and anachronisms. You insist on blaming the child abuse scandal on "The Church," and fail to acknowledge that the vast majority of the people who committed these crimes are dead or extremely aged. In sticking to your "The Church" abstraction, you also fail to acknowledge that the people and actions have changed over the years since the crimes took place. Reparations are going to be paid out of funds that would otherwise be used to support aged nuns and priests who did not commit the crimes in question. It's certainly fair that reparations should be paid - but if the priest and nuns agree to pay a certain amount and then that amount is tripled, is that fair?

The criminals should be prosecuted, and reasonable reparations should be made. But opening up the same stories over and over and over agan - twenty or thirty years after they ended - what good does that do anybody?

"The Church" that you speak of died long ago. Catholics don't do things that way anymore. Strict controls have been put in place to prevent future child abuse. No doubt, the controls will fail from time to time, but I think the lesson was learned years ago.

But go ahead, you wallow in your anger about long-ago events for as long as you like. What good does that do you?

And mg, you also speak in anachronisms. Get over it. For the two of you, it's like these decades-old crimes are being committed over and over again, every day. Your outrage is getting moldy.

MG, that archbishop you call "creepy-creep" is Timothy Cardinal Dolan, who used to be Archbishop of Milwaukee. Your name for him fits pretty well. Luckily, Pope Francis doesn't seem to be appointing people of his ilk - but no doubt, Dolan has his job in New York permanently. I once saw a priest do a great imitation of Dolan as a bobblehead doll. Apparently, he nods and grins at people as he walks along. He's quite the glad-hander - one of the darlings of the conservatives. Still, St. Patrick's is a landmark with historical and cultural value and it gets constant heavy use - you won't get a lot of support for selling it. Same with St. Peter's in Rome. What right does anyone have to take it away? If a person in my employ commits a crime, how much can be taken from me?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 05:23 PM

And while we are at it, just who are these children abusing Catholics?

If I have that wrong it seems all children in Catholic Sunday schools admit to some degree of abuse even if it is just losing their Sundays.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 04:02 PM

Ake, can you PLEASE take your homophobic bullshit somewhere else?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: mg
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 02:40 PM

I am fine if they are all gay but no pedophiles, gay or non. I do not assume that gay people can not be pedophiles. Of course they can. Until proven otherwise i would assume same percentage as non. There are easy tests to measure attraction and yes, studies show there are definite preferences as to sex or gender or whatever it is. I think we will all be taking them at some point.   Also think we will find that we are all omnisexual and that some people are able to channel better.

As for selling churches..think developers dont want some of them in high cost areas? Look at st. Patricks..creepy creep is running it and would not even put bathrooms in it.

And today they they took up a collection to put mosaics on the dome of basilica in dc. I have never seen a collection for survivors. Those are our priorities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 02:02 PM

"If so, your stance is idiotic or you are dismissing the evidence."
There is no "evidence"
You know this as you refuse to back up your claim
How can there possibly be any "evidence" if identities of the vast majority of the culprits has been kept secret?
If here was evidence, you would link us to it
This is yet more of your latent homosexual homophobia
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 01:17 PM

Greg, are you seriously suggesting that the sexual abuse of 11 to 17 year old males by adult priests has nothing to do with homosexuality?

If so, your stance is idiotic or you are dismissing the evidence.

I don't particularly care whether you or anyone else thinks I am homophobic, this is a discussion forum and all are entitled to their opinion, but I do care about the dismissal of clear evidence.

If we are going to ignore certain relevant issues in any discussion because they do not fit into our ideology, we might as well pack up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 11:34 AM

Ake, can you PLEASE take your homophobic bullshit somewhere else?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Kenny B
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 10:46 AM

Buddhist saying "The problem with closed minded people is that their mouth is always open"


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 08:00 AM

"I have stopped contributing to this thread, "
No true
Your nastiness and trolling doesn't merit the description "contribution" - just trolling - and you most recent posting is an indication that you haven't "stopped posting"
You can't possibly know that "Most of the abusers who have been found guilty of these crimes have had previous homosexual contact."
There has been no survey of who are what they are, the names of most of them lie under lock and key in the Vatican - that has been stated over and over again - perhaps you should try paying a little more attention to what people say if you can't be arsed to look up the facts for yourself.
Please stop miking things up - your not even good at THAT!
"They'd soon find that nobody wants to buy them"
Might surprise you to learn that many Church of Ireland (Prod) churches are being used as music or cultural centres - there are two within ten mils of here Joe - one in the next but one town of Ennistimon, north of here, and one which has been into a magnificent community centre in Kilrush
Over in East Clare, one is being used for a Museum
Comhaltas has dozens of them all over Ireland
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:53 AM

That's a pretty stupid remark, even for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:46 AM

I couldn't possibly comment on your sexual past Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:39 AM

I wonder exactly how many lusty, red-blooded, thorough-going heterosexual males have ever had "previous homosexual contact.." 😂.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:33 AM

I have stopped contributing to this thread, as All of you appear to have buried your heads in the sand for various reasons.
However I must point out that there was almost no paedophilia involved in any of the cases which have been revealed most of the abuse has been between adult males and post pubescent minors, between 11 and 17. Most of the abusers who have been found guilty of these crimes have had previous homosexual contact.

Perhaps any future discussion on this subject will take these facts into account when forming opinions.
mg thinks it would be fine if 100% of priests were homosexual, how would these men have the necessary qualifications to teach family values to their flock?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:18 AM

Jim and mg should go into business selling old churches. They'd soon find that nobody wants to buy them - and nobody wants to allow them to be torn down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 04:52 AM

"we can meet in the denny's parking "
One of our finest singers and dear friend, Tom Lenihan, lost his son when he was bitten by a rat around the farm - John was infected with Weill's disease and dies within weeks
Tom and his wife Margaret - then in their 80s were devastated
They both were deeply religious - "simple genuine Christians" as Tom Munnelly described them, but they never attended his Church funeral in Miltown, they watched the hearse depart from their front door and viewed its progress into town down the hill from there
When we asked why, we are told, "John was born in this house and this is where he spent most of his life - we don't need a church service to remember him - this house holds all our memories of him"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: mg
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 04:35 AM

the vatican..what can i say about it..it harbors criminals. there is a policy still standing called crimen...something..a book by an australian named kieran tiepsal??? out that is very good at explaining it. bishops are ordered to keep things secret. pope has told bishops currently they only now have to report if countries command it. they have the priests in a bind...they object and they will lose their position, their retirement, their housing, whatever. it is a filthy filthy system. there is blackmail going on most likely...if you out me for being a pedophile i will out you for being gay..and if 100 percent of the priests are gay itis fine with me.

i am sympathetic to the pedophiles...they have a neurological condition somehow..could be from birth or could be developed by various circumstances...no one would wish this curse on them...but they must be locked up in either a jail or a monastery with large screen tvs or whatever...or if society and the perps would allow it, brain surgery...you can't count on drugs to be taken...you need something permanent...

as far as churches go...we make them too big and in the past way too ornate. now they are often quite ugly. just rent a room from the unitarians or have simple new england style churches for a smaller congregation. we need to review the history of these huge cathedrals..some have to do with knights templar and all sorts of mysteries. god is probably just fine with a smaller simpler building ... and we can't afford to keep some of them...maintenance, heating, etc.

the bishops and cardinals need to be really really looked at as to their involvement in coverups. the majority were said to be coveruppers at least a while ago. they will still do what they can get away with...and this is partly to do with a sense of fiscal responsibility...they fail to coverup and they lose the church buildings...

we can meet in the denny's parking lot if we need to. under a tarp on a baseball field..but we can not have a church based on abusing..often raping..children..right on the altar all too often.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 03:37 AM

"It isn't "The Church" that commits crime. "
It was and continues to be the Church that covered up the crim - from the top to the bottom - from the fellow priests who knew about their colleagues' "little weaknesses" to the Vatican, who locked away the details and still keeps them locked up
"The Church" is the body that makes this affair a unit - it sets it aside from all other similar cases of abuse
I have yet to get a response to the fact that, if this had happened within any other section of society it would have been handled very differently - not with mere retrospective exposures and a few sackings, but with mass legal actions against the perpetrators and their accomplices
The church, as a body, can be said to be complicit in these crimes - the knowledge of what was happening became a way of life within the church as a whole - something accepted and allowed to continue for the sake of self-survival.
I really don't believe that Joe and those who share his views really understand the enormity and the seriousness of what happened.
The issue of compensation is for the surviving victims to decide, not outsiders like us, but it is really a side-issue
I'm reminded of the twenty seven year farce following the Hillsborough Disaster when I listen to some of these arguments - the denials of blame, the blaming of the victims, the official cover-ups - above all, the denial of responsibility by those who could have done something different and didn't.
I was in Liverpool on the day that the enquiry finally laid the blame where it should have been 27 years earlier
The overall impression I was left with wasn't one of vengeance or demands for compensation, but one of relief by the families that, at long last, the truth had emerged
I have no interest in football whatever, (I hate the game) but I sat and watched those speeches from relatives with tears streaming down my face.
THat has yet to begin in this affair, yet there are those demanding that it should be forgotten and "we should be allowed to move on" - let bygones be bygones.
If the Irish Church is anything to go by, that just ain't gonna happen.
The question of compensation will be easily solved by the revenue brought in from the sale of unused churches.
Just a point about who has footed the bill so far.
"Irish taxpayers are to fund most of what is likely to be the largest payout from public funds to child abuse victims anywhere in the world. Organisations representing clerical abuse victims and members of the Dail claim the final compensation bill will be around ?1.3 billion (£780 million)."........" the Catholic Church will only pay ?128m towards the bill."
The rest comes out of ours - the taxpayer's pocket
And the church still prevaricates and refuses to cough up.
NOT ACCEPTABLE.
The least that can happen must be that the church - as a body - puts its hands up and admits its guilt fully and supplies all information necessary to bring closure.
The best that can happen is already happening arbitrarily
The church, as a body, must never occupy positions in our society where these crimes, or similar, can ever happen again.
The Church's role in Education is now a big issue here in Ireland
It's say in the nation's health is being challenged - the proposed turning over of Ireland's main maternity hospital has collapsed.
The referendum on same sex marriage was passed with ease, despite the church's intervention (we now have a gay Taoiseach - beautifully unbelievable).
It remains to be seen what will happen in future referendums on pregnancy termination - let's see if the Church threatens excommunication to those politicians who vote "yess", as they did last time.
At long last, the toxic mix of religion and politics is being washed down the drain - not before time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 11:50 PM

Tiny hands by Michelangelo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 10:12 PM

Now I can't erase the image of a naked Sistine Trump from my mind....


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 09:41 PM

Following up on a sale of church property to the Current Occuant: I immediately went to whether Trump would want to have himself painted over the portion of the Sistine Chapel showing God giving life to Adam. The immediate followup was whether he would want to be depicted as God or the first man?

I could only imagine him wanting to be BOTH.


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