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BS: Clerical Abuse of Children

Kenny B 21 Aug 17 - 09:03 AM
Joe Offer 21 Aug 17 - 12:59 PM
Jack Campin 10 Sep 17 - 11:56 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 17 - 12:05 PM
Raggytash 11 Sep 17 - 12:53 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 17 - 03:13 PM
Raggytash 11 Sep 17 - 04:06 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 03:39 AM
Joe Offer 13 Sep 17 - 12:27 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 03:21 AM
Iains 13 Sep 17 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 04:26 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 04:49 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 17 - 05:05 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 17 - 05:19 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 05:31 AM
Jack Campin 13 Sep 17 - 07:28 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 08:21 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 08:26 AM
Iains 13 Sep 17 - 09:22 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 09:39 AM
Iains 13 Sep 17 - 09:51 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 10:22 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 17 - 10:42 AM
Jack Campin 13 Sep 17 - 11:22 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 11:40 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 17 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 11:43 AM
akenaton 13 Sep 17 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 12:18 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 12:22 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Sep 17 - 07:36 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 03:29 AM
Raggytash 14 Sep 17 - 09:08 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 09:41 AM
Raggytash 14 Sep 17 - 10:46 AM
Joe Offer 14 Sep 17 - 12:32 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 01:39 PM
Iains 14 Sep 17 - 05:15 PM
Joe Offer 14 Sep 17 - 05:55 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 07:31 PM
Joe Offer 15 Sep 17 - 03:00 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 17 - 03:28 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 17 - 03:48 AM
Joe Offer 15 Sep 17 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 17 - 05:13 AM
Jack Campin 16 Sep 17 - 12:03 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Sep 17 - 02:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Sep 17 - 10:36 AM
Jack Campin 17 Sep 17 - 10:43 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Kenny B
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 09:03 AM

Thaks Raggytash .... that's a gem


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 12:59 PM

Good one, Raggytash. That story has been told in many different ways over the years. Here's how it was told on the West Wing television series: I wonder how "Dr." Laura Schlesinger reacted.

Here's a page on a West Wing fansite: http://westwing.bewarne.com/second/25letter.html

There's a rather lame born-again response (can't say I agree with it):


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 11:56 AM

Latest horror story, this time from Scotland:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bodies-hundreds-children-buried-mass-grave-lanarkshire-smyllum-park-catholic-orphanage-a7938716.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 12:05 PM

I see very litle interest in this discovery, particularly from the believers - I put it up in the Rees Mogg thread - no takers there either
With ongoing discoveries like these and the ethnic cleansing that is now taking place in Burma it seems the world needs to be following Ireland's example and asking exactly what power and influence religion should have in society
So far, it's won the homosexuals the right to be treated as human beings at long last
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 12:53 PM

Jim, please start another thread. I would like this one to remain as it is.

Thanks for the link Jack, I read the report yesterday but am operating on a android so putting links up is difficult. (well to me at least)


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:13 PM

So far it has remained totally statice Raggy - that's why I hung on for as long as I did.
The two subjects aRe joined at the hip, but I will hang on until I see if anybody else bites
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:06 PM

Jim, the point I was, hopefully, trying to make was that although the situation for homosexuals and events in Burma are of grave concern, they are not pertinent to the abuse of children by representatives of the organised religions, be they of whatever faith they maintain they belong to.

And before anyone wades in I know it is just not catholics and just not christians, although they do seem to get a lot of press.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:39 AM

Fair enough Raggy
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:27 AM

Jim Carroll wanted a response from "believers." My response: there's not enough information to make a comment.
I didn't see enough information in the Lanarkshire article to know it it was indeed another "horror story." Over the 120 years the institution was in operation, 400 children died and were buried in what was called a "mass grave." I don't know that burial in a mass grave is necessarily an abuse, and I don't know that a death rate of 3 or 4 a year is unusual. Yes, there were incidents of child abuse, but I suppose that a few such incidents might be expected in an institution that housed over 11,000 children over 120 years.
I was hit on the head with a golf club when I was 10 years old. I suffered a fairly serious injury, but I'm convinced the kid who hit me did it by accident.
Was it a "horror story"? I don't know. But I do feel sadness for those who died and those who suffered abuse, whether they were many or few. It's bad that any child has to grow up in an institution.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:21 AM

"I don't know that burial in a mass grave is necessarily an abuse,"
I agree Joe, but of the secret burial of so many children without public acknowledgement of their deaths and without identifying them isn't, it should be.
The finding of such graveyards in Ireland is now a common occurrence and, with the exception of Tuam, is still not being acted on.
Several years ago in Cork (I think), while an old convent was being demolished to make room for new development a mass grave containing many bodies of children and young people was discovered - there has been nothing in our newspapers since
If you don't have enough information on these things Joe, it is because it is being suppressed
It is quite likely that the Lanarkshire one will be followed up because it is in the U.K., but it's not happening in Ireland to the extent is should be.
I believe that all this is not unlinked to the present battle that is raging here by the church to retain the elevated position it has always held, a way of retaining credibility.
We now know that children and young people - even young "sinning" women were not treated well by the church right into the middle of the 20th century and beyond - from selling children, to physical abuse, virtual slavery, constant humiliation and degradation - to rape and sexual abuse on a wide scale.
This is not because your religion is evil, far from it - it is because those promoting it abused their positions.
Because of the Church's negatively aggressive reaction to being found out, it is your religion that has suffered and we now have a new generation of victims - the true believers who are turning away from the Church in droves, disillusioned.
I believe that all this happened because the church was given (or seized) power way beyond their qualifications and demanded a say in aspects of our lives that they had no understanding of - they became part of the toxic mix of politics and religion.
I hope, for the sake of all my Catholic friends and family, that it is not too late to sort this out without too much more damage to those people, but it's going to take an enormous effort on your part.
I've recently been involved in an argument where I discovered that one of your Popes nrecently compared homosexuality with "the destruction of the rainforests" - a wilfully vicious statement about a natural condition existence for a large minority of human beings.
In two issues current in Ireland at present, single-sex marriage and pregnancy termination, the church has issued threats of excommunication to those who supported them
It really doesn't auger well for the future - it is time to clean out your own augean stable and stop presenting yourselves as victims
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 03:59 AM

As this thread refuses to die a death I think it is time the title was changed. It is not only incorrect but insulting to an entire religion.

Can you imagine the outcry in Britain if the same approach was adopted for a thread discussing the Moslem abuse of children in northern England, where it is obvious it is only a small minority guilty of any offense?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:26 AM

"It is not only incorrect but insulting to an entire religion.It is not only incorrect but insulting to an entire religion.It is not only incorrect but insulting to an entire religion."
I don't believe it is insulting a religion that is guilty of what it is accused of Iains, but I agree that it is limiting to be only one form of religious abuse
On the other hand, Catholic abuse is the closest to home for us at the present time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:49 AM

Whatever the merits or otherwise of the thread title, it's fine to focus on a narrow issue for the simple reason that it is a current issue. Far too many threads have been spoiled by attempts at exoneration of misdeeds via the schoolyard argument that he does it too, Miss. We know that. But we ARE free to discuss it - somewhere else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 05:05 AM

More sensationalised stuff from Jim, the burials dated from 1860 till the orphanage was closed in around 1980, during that time infant mortality was rife amongst the whole population; there were several catastrophic flu epidemics, pneumonia was a common cause of infant death, the crowded dormitories would have been an effective breeding ground for infection...there was the scourge of TB right up until the 1960's

What are you trying to say Jim? that the children were deliberately killed by the nuns and thrown in a hole?

I have seen photo graphs of the interior of the orphanage filled with hundreds of children all looked well fed, well dressed and cared for.
As a mason, I have worked in old graveyards here in Scotland and the old stones of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries contain the names of whole families who died in infancy.

You are a nasty piece of work on these matters Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 05:19 AM

Orphanage pictures in this
article


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 05:31 AM

"You are a nasty piece of work on these matters Jim."
Telling the truth is only "nasty" to people trying to hide the truth
How about pointing out where I have actually distorted orr told lies about something instead of your usual cowardly personal attacks Ake
Where have I or has anybody said that the children were deliberately killed?
Why do you insist on making everything a personal vendetta (a rhetorical question - I know why)
A general request - will people pleasew not allow this toxic troll to spoil yet another thread by responding to his vitriol
Why is there never an adjudicator around when needed?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:28 AM

Having all the children's bodies dumped in an unmarked pit while the staff all got well-tended gravestones with their names on says it all about who they valued. If they regarded the children as a garbage disposal problem you can safely assume that had consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:21 AM

I suggest that all who haven't seen the film Philomena, do so
In that case, the whereabouts of the sold child was deliberately withheld to prevent the mother, from whom the child was stolen from tracing his whwrebouts - when she finally did, he had died
An astronomical amount was demanded by the convert to put up a memorial in his memory
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:26 AM

"I don't know that burial in a mass grave is necessarily an abuse"

Well I'm certain that it's abuse. It is thoroughly disrespectful and it reveals that the children were regarded as being without value. Right, you can't groom a dead child or cause it emotional damage any more, but that lack of respect and that lack of valuing are both solid hallmarks of all child abusers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 09:22 AM

"I don't know that burial in a mass grave is necessarily an abuse"

"Well I'm certain that it's abuse"

What about the plague pits in England, or the burial pits of Skibbereen?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 09:39 AM

The plague pits happened because the country was overwhelmed by infectious corpses, brought about by an "act of God" that was not preventable. The children buried in mass graves did not all die at once and could each have been accorded decent, simple funerals. This is about why they were not. The circumstances in the other cases were not the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 09:51 AM

We can only judge what you mean by what you say. You should qualify broad brush statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:22 AM

My "broad brush statement" was my opinion, which I respectfully set alongside Joe Offer's. Oh, and I qualified it. Perhaps your computer has gone all dicky on you and truncated my post. So here it is again, with my qualification in bold:


"Well I'm certain that it's abuse. It is thoroughly disrespectful and it reveals that the children were regarded as being without value. Right, you can't groom a dead child or cause it emotional damage any more, but that lack of respect and that lack of valuing are both solid hallmarks of all child abusers."

Glad to clear that up for you. Alternatively, I suggest that, if you have nothing constructive to say, just keep quiet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 10:42 AM

Again I go back to the times in question. The majority of people at that time had no headstones, only the well off could afford them.
In Scottish Churchyards often you see a rough stone without inscription that was the resting place of the poor infant, the rough stone being wrought by the hands of the father.
My own family have no markers, three generations Lie buried in local churchyard and even I could not take you to the exact spot.

We forget so quickly....that's life........and times change!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:22 AM

The place closed in 1981.

The Church could well afford headstones then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:40 AM

LITANY of UNREGISTERED DEATHS of CHILDREN IN CARE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:42 AM

The children did not die all in one go. To suggest that the Church couldn't afford a humble funeral in an individual grave, identifiable as such and with a record of the death and the location of the grave, is obscene, frankly. No one's asking for a mausoleum every time. We've seen enough mass graves at death camps, in Srebrenica, in Iraq, in Chechnya and elsewhere, to revolt even the most insensitive soul. Or so I thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:43 AM

BABY BLACK MARKET
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 11:50 AM

In the Scottish orphanage all deaths were registered. The lack of a memorial stone is more a sign of the times these children lived through than "abuse".

As I have said before I and my classmates were regularly "belted" in the late 50's......do you think we should all start suing the education authorities.......get a bloody grip, shit happens, life goes on.

I really don't think you lot give a shit whether the kids got a headstone or not........its just another chance to kick Joe and religion in general!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:18 PM

You have the figures Ake - its not about headstones just persistent rape, violent abuse and secret burials
Neither is it about religiopn - believers were the victims
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 12:22 PM

BELTS OVER THE EAR
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 07:36 PM

Didn't work - try this
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:29 AM

One more try
"get a bloody grip, "
BEING "BELTED IN CATHOLIC INSTITUTIONS
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/brutality-and-dire-conditions-in-climate-of-fear-1.766959
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:08 AM

The thread was so titled because of the opening post which referred to a specific example of catholic abuse.

Sadly that one example is one of many for that particular religion.

If you care to read other posts other religions are mentioned as the topic has broadened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:41 AM

It's a valid topic in its own right. We shouldn't feel we have to bring other religions into this particular thread unless we want to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 10:46 AM

I don't have any problem with the topic being widened to include abuse of any religious group.

The "leaders" of such groups tell the rest of us that such abuse is sinful.

If their colleagues then indulge in such abuse they should face the full weight of their fellow clergy and the full face of the law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:32 PM

Raggytash says: "If their colleagues then indulge in such abuse they should face the full weight of their fellow clergy and the full face of the law."

Agreed, but I think that only the offenders should be punished, and not the entire group. Crime tends to drive people to hysteria and bigotry. I continue to believe that most people, including most Catholics and most Catholic clergy, are pretty good folks and are not guilty of any criminal offense merely by their membership in a particular group.

There is a very vocal group in my town that is outraged by crime that happens in the community. They seem to be convinced that most crime is committed by homeless people, and so the town must rid itself of all homeless people.

I think it is important that we respond to crime in a very rational manner, being careful to stick the the facts. The original post by raggytash in this thread says, "The report I read on the BBC News suggested a figure of 49 members of the clergy." The actual report from the BBC (quoted in full above) says this:
    At least 547 young members of the Regensburger Domspatzen boys choir in Germany were subjected to physical and in some instances sexual abuse over a period of 60 years, a new report says.
    The report accuses 49 members of the Catholic Church of carrying out the abuse between 1945 and the early 1990s.


It seems probable to me that most of those "49 members of the Catholic Church" were NOT clergy. I really do think that precise information is necessary when we are passing judgment in such matters. We humans tend to react to crime in irrational ways, making it far worse than it actually is.

Same with the "mass grave" issue. Early reports of the Tuam institution said that bodies of children were dumped into a refuse pit, but later reports showed that to be untrue. Residents of institutions are often buried without headstones when they die. There used to be a tuberculosis sanatorium next door to my home, and there's a graveyard there for patients who died. Most were buried in unmarked graves, usually identified only by a number. That's how they did it in those days.

Some clergy commit crimes. Some Jews commit crimes, Some Muslims commit crimes. Some homeless people commit crimes. But not all of them, and no individuals should feel obligated to apologize for crimes committed by other members of their group. That's a troublesome trend that has arisen lately, people demanding that Muslims speak out against acts of terrorism committed by other Muslims. If I didn't commit the crime, I should not be expected to atone for it.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:39 PM

"Agreed, but I think that only the offenders should be punished, and not the entire group"
The church was aware this was going on and did nothing and in many cases actively covered it up so they are all "offenders" in this respect
Smythe's Bishop actually humiliated the parents of his victims when tey raised the issue
Two years ago, when an abusive high level clergyman gave a sermon and a victim raised his voice in protest at him being allowed to do so, he was physically thrown out of the building
I won't repeat the story of the Nuns who described their victims as "the sweepings of the street"
Some of your church have learned nothing, atoned for nothing, and refuse to acknowledge that their behaviour was evil
To scapegoat a few seems not enough to me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:15 PM

"To scapegoat a few seems not enough to me"
It would make more sense to differentiate between the offenders and offended in my opinion. To Punish the guilty and help the victims is a far more rational approach than hunting around for a bunch of scapegoats.
After all what is a scapegoat? a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings, mistakes, or faults of others, especially for reasons of expediency. Why would you want to find scapegoats anyway? It would be a total waste of time, resources and money and achieve zilch, apart from perverting the course of justice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:55 PM

Jim Carroll says: The church was aware this was going on and did nothing and in many cases actively covered it up so they are all "offenders" in this respect

But that's not true, Jim. I know that from personal experience, and from discussions I've had with Irish-born priests and nuns.

When I was in the seminary in Milwaukee in 1967-68, we were subjected to rigorous psychological testing, and 9 of my classmates were removed because they were thought to be a bad risk. So, back in 1967, my diocese recognized that sexual abuse was a problem in the Catholic clergy, and they took serious steps to combat the problem. In the 1970s, the U.S. bishops built state-of-the-art residential centers for treatment of priests who had problems with addictions and sexual misconduct. Neither of these responses completely solved the problem, but they were honest, rigorous responses.

In the 1980s, I moved to the Sacramento diocese, at the time when that diocese was developing a system for responding to sexual abuse complaints that offered counseling and financial compensation with no questions asked, along with referral of offending priests to law enforcement for prosecution.

Dioceses all over the world have been trying all sorts of approaches to the sexual abuse problem since at least the 1960s. Yes, there were far too many bishops who buried their heads in the sand and denied and covered up this scandal, but the wrongdoers were NOT in the majority. Trouble is, the good efforts of people rarely get good news coverage.

So, yes, Jim, I think there needs to be a balanced, realistic, honest approach to this scandal that is targeted at the actual wrongdoers. I also think that positive efforts to prevent future abuse, are far more important than are efforts to recycle attacks on 50-yr-old crimes over and over again.

The physical and sexual abuse of children is still a serious problem in churches and in most facets of our society. Scapegoating past misconduct in churches serves to ignore the current problem which is still widespread throughout society.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:31 PM

It isn't really scapegoating though, is it, Joe. I don't doubt for a second that plenty of priests and bishops of good intent were trying to address the problem of sexual abuse as and when it reared its head. But this is about something far deeper than those day-to-day vicissitudes. It's about widespread institutional cover-ups. It's about the Church hierarchy denying the issue then covering it up by quietly shifting miscreants around. It's about allowing the perpetuation of the wrongdoing by dint of that kind of behaviour, priests being quietly moved to another location where they could carry on with the abuse. All done in the cause of preventing embarrassment for the Church and with very little to do with helping the victims of the abuse. That is what jars in the eyes of outsiders who see an institution which is supposed to follow the teachings of Christ seemingly doing the precise opposite. I was a member of the Church for decades and many of my family still are, and I hate to see this institution utterly failing - as an institution. Dealing with the issue so ineptly and so lacking in courage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 03:00 AM

Steve Shaw says: It's about the Church hierarchy denying the issue then covering it up by quietly shifting miscreants around. It's about allowing the perpetuation of the wrongdoing by dint of that kind of behaviour, priests being quietly moved to another location where they could carry on with the abuse.

Yes, those things happened, and they are truly reason for outrage. And since a bishop is the sole authority in a diocese, one corrupt bishop can destroy an entire diocese. But it didn't happen everywhere, not even close to everywhere. But the crimes were so scandalous that when they happened, it appeared that they were happening everywhere.

And as I've said, people often get this impression of crime - that it is happening everywhere and constantly.

-Joe-















b


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 03:28 AM

"But it didn't happen everywhere"
This seems a bit of a concession on your part Joe, for which I am grateful
At one time it was "a few bad apples"
It happened often enough to have brought the Church to its knees here - not from outside attacks but from believers walking away and leaving empty churches - in my parent's time that would have been an unbelievably concept for Holy Ireland - I can remember as a young teenager being taken to mass in an Irish church by relatives and having to stand in the rain as there was no room inside.
No more
THe church needs to stand up to the consequences of its guilt - not just the behaviour of abusive priests and nuns, but the collusion that took place.
Some honest and humane Churchmen have - but those at the top of the tree have not
And all the time new revelations such as Scotland keep popping up and will continue too do so
Your friendly Irish priests can deny till they are blue in the face, but documentaries like Mea Maxima Culpa and the background of films like Philomena, Spotlight, Ballad of a Raggy Boy, The Magdalene Girls and many, many others tell a totally different story
This abuse was common, it was widely known about and hidden, and is was international
The real "rotten apples" in your church are the hierarch who continue to dismiss it and refuse to meet up to the consequences
So far, the Irish taxpayer has footed the financial bill for this offence - the Church has yet to pay its agreed share
One of the possible consequences of this is likely to be that those victims who decided to put all this behind them and not come forward will become tired of having their noses rubbed into what happened to them and demand reparation
Your Church will then have to start holding jumble-sales to pay for its very existence
You have never responded to this, but if this had happened in the, say, health service or the education system the entire structure of these organisations would have been tured on their heads to shake out the rats.
Your Church still refuses to even acknowledge the responsibility of itss action (or inaction)
Thast really doesn't auger well for the genuine Christians amongst you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 03:48 AM

These arguments are beginning to remind me of the old childrens' rhyme

"Ladybird, Ladybird, fly away home
Your house is on fire, your children are flown

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 04:01 AM

Not paid, Jim? The payments made by the Catholic Church have been in the hundreds of millions, bankrupting many dioceses.
The settlements and judgments have not yet been paid completely, Jim; but the amount paid already is mind-boggling. And the two most recent popes, Francis and Benedict, have acknowledged and publicly apologized for this abuse over and over again.
In the midst of your rhetoric, you lost track of the facts.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 05:13 AM

"The settlements and judgments have not yet been paid completely,"
My point exactly Joe - the world's weathiesy church refuses to meet its comminttments
Parished should never have been asked to donate - that's another way the hierarchy have dodged their resposibility
You acknowledged this long ago when you talked about the Vatican having to sell its paintings - now it's parishes going bust
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 12:03 PM

And another "Beam me up, Scotty" from a pervert in trouble with the law:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/vatican-recall-priest-child-sexual-abuse-images-us-state-department-a7949871.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 02:52 AM

From Jack's Post
"But instead he was withdrawn from the US and the Pope's investigators have now launched their own probe, seeking evidence from the US."
This reads suspiciously like exactly what happened to so many abusive priests when their behaviour became too obvious to ignore - it is the direct collusion of the hierarchy of the church in sexuual abuse
As far as I am concerned, it shows clearly that, far from acknowledging its sings and atoning for them the church continues to cover up and protect abuse by the clergy
How far does the church have to self-destruct before this insanity stops?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 10:36 AM

These were not "secret burials."
All the deaths were registered in the normal way.

The children's home would have had a limited budget and it was probably considered preferable to spend it on the living than on memorials for the dead.
No doubt they were buried with respect and tears in that communal grave.

Is there any evidence of malpractice here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 10:43 AM

They DID spend money on memorials - when the memorials were for the nuns.


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