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Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?

punkfolkrocker 27 Jul 17 - 02:53 PM
The Sandman 27 Jul 17 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,kenny 27 Jul 17 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,kenny 27 Jul 17 - 04:14 PM
Tattie Bogle 27 Jul 17 - 04:46 PM
Brian Peters 27 Jul 17 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 28 Jul 17 - 12:55 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Jul 17 - 03:26 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jul 17 - 03:36 PM
Tattie Bogle 28 Jul 17 - 04:34 PM
Guran 02 Aug 17 - 11:40 AM
The Sandman 02 Aug 17 - 12:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Aug 17 - 01:09 PM
Richard Mellish 02 Aug 17 - 05:00 PM
Steve Gardham 02 Aug 17 - 05:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Aug 17 - 07:47 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Aug 17 - 09:50 AM
Howard Jones 03 Aug 17 - 10:49 AM
Steve Gardham 03 Aug 17 - 11:08 AM
Guran 03 Aug 17 - 12:46 PM
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Subject: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 02:53 PM

concertinas, accordions, etc...

What's prevailing opinion about close micing..?

Accept bellows creaks as integral to the authentic sound of the instrument,
or try to filter out the noise...???

If so - how...???

Or is close micing impossible, and mic needs to be much further away...???


Yeah..ok... I've got some cheap Chinese kiddies accordions for making drones...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 03:29 PM

What happens when you throw an accodion and a concertina down a well, which one hits the bottm first, answer.. who cares


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 03:53 PM

Have a listen to the new-ish CD by Cormac Begley, in particular, the first track.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 04:14 PM

https://youtu.be/R0rjZJ4OdsA


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 04:46 PM

Not aware of much bellows noise on either of those tunes, but maybe that's what the foot is for? For buttonboxes, you're more likely to get a bit of clack from the buttons.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 05:49 PM

Yes, like Tattie Bogle says, you mike the ends, not the bellows. Never had much problem with a concertina, but melodeon buttons can be noisy.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 28 Jul 17 - 12:55 PM

and clacky buttons part of the essence of the melodeon- must we smooth out everything?
   Reminds me of the musician who objected to the breathy sounds of a famous flute player- bit difficult to play that instrument without breathing, methinks?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Jul 17 - 03:26 PM

Many instruments have some sort of extraneous sound, guitars in particular. I don't think these are intrusive. They are part of the mechanics of the instrument.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 17 - 03:36 PM

Cheers for replies.. keep them coming mudcat mates...

I've some cheap kiddies accordions that are reasonably in tune and don't sound too crap.
Except for brand new stiff creaking bellows.

Plan is to record multitracked layered drones, but the creaks dubbed upon creaks might end up be a bit too creaky...

This could be a good learning opportunity for mic technique...???


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Jul 17 - 04:34 PM

Not really objecting, Jim. just saying it's a part of what you might expect to hear! As for guitars, is there not some stuff you can put on the strings to stop/reduce that big slidey noise? (Tho' to some tha is all part of the performance :-) )


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: Guran
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 11:40 AM

Steve Gardham:"Many instruments have some sort of extraneous sound, guitars in particular. I don't think these are intrusive. They are part of the mechanics of the instrument".

Might be so, but is it not a good idea trying various means to reduce them?? With guitar playing some ( acoustic guitar) players create very much noise by scratching nails at the strings or tapping them at the instrument body. That hardly adds anything to the musical enjoyment and quite a few guitarists avoid this almost completely. I definitely think that is preferable.
Same with concertinas. Noise from bellows, buttons,mechanism,pads MAY be completely eliminated by taking good care of the instrument and using good playing technique. Why not do it??
Concerning miking some of these noises which are high frequency ones can be reduced by miking at a distance. Depending IF you prefer the somewhat harsh concertina tone( or free reed tone generally speaking) which is caused by the numerous high and irregular overtones, you mike ( and listen to) the instrument at close distance and IF you like a mellower tone, again set the mike at a distance, and as a listener stay at some distance too.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 12:58 PM

"Same with concertinas. Noise from bellows, buttons,mechanism,pads MAY be completely eliminated by taking good care of the instrument and using good playing technique. Why not do it??"
because its a matter of taste, Jim and many others like the clack of the buttons, so there miking prefernces would be different from yours


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 01:09 PM

Dick - but what about the loud creaking of stiff new bellows...???


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 05:00 PM

I think there is no one right answer for all situations; but for punkfolkrocker's specific application the creaking of bellows does seem undesirable. Simply placing the mics in line with the ends should help to emphasise the desired sounds from the reeds over the undesired sounds from the bellows. For greater suppression, might it be worth deliberately recording the bellows sound with another mic on a separate track and then doing some subtraction in the sound editing?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 05:27 PM

If the bellows are leather which they should be if it's a decent instrument lightly oiling them with leather oil should reduce any creaking. I have a miniature and a bass as well as my Special and I've never noticed any creaking after being played a few times.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 07:47 PM

Cheap Chinese kiddies accordions..

"bellows are combination of kraft paper, cloth and leather... for excellent tearing strength.. will have a long service life"


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 09:50 AM

These cheap versions made of paper, cloth and leather do indeed have a long shelf life if looked after. Flutinas have lasted well for 150 years and I have cheap German and Chinese anglos that are still going after a century. Conversely some lower end leather Lachenals I have the bellows all need replacing. Probably from overuse or drying out I hasten to add.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 10:49 AM

If the bellows are leather which they should be if it's a decent instrument lightly oiling them with leather oil should reduce any creaking.

There are some discussions about this on concertina.net. The advice from makers and repairers is to be very cautious about applying oil or any other treatment to bellows as it can affect the glue. Some instruments will be absolutely fine, but you don't want to find that yours is not.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 11:08 AM

Perhaps I should have capitalised 'LIGHTLY'.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Recording concertinas - bellows noise ?
From: Guran
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 12:46 PM

I also used to give the bellows a yearly treatment with leather oil or shoecream but mostly just the leather parts which got the most strain and wear - that is the outer corners and edges and the deep folds. When doing the later it is advisable to have one finger inside the bellows meeting the one from outside...or doing it with a brush and finishing lightly with a cloth afterwards.

Again, I can impossibly understand that "Jim and many others like the clack of th buttons"...since it IS after all a symptom that the buttons are not fit properly. You don't expect any of that to be present with a new instrument or one in good condition...
Of course if you get it with an old instrument that you for orthodox reasons do not wish to change by reconditioning it you may believe that you perform on "an original instrument" which of course is a delution since originally the instrument likely was NOT in that shape....


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