Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Richie
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 11:36 AM

Hi,

I'm through for now with the Spanish Lady--the headnotes: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8e-the-spanish-lady.aspx

The texts versions are here. the UK:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/british--other-versions-8e-spanish-lady.aspx I only listed one standard UK version from the 1960s-- "Spanish Lady" an Irish street song as sung by Dominic Behan of Dublin on his 1959 Topic LP "Down by the Liffeyside." This uses Campbell's text with Hughes chorus.

the US: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-8e-spanish-lady.aspx

My painting is there online however I don't have a good photo of it.

There are two more appendices of Madam which are both short.

I'll post these soon,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Richie
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 10:42 PM

Hi,

Here are the notes for 8F. Come My Little Roving Sailor on my site: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8f-come-my-little-roving-sailor-roving-sailor.aspx They are short so I've included them below:

* * * *

"Come My Little Roving Sailor" (hereafter "Roving Sailor") is a play-party song and fiddle tune that has, at least in Virginia, become composite with stanzas of 8. "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" (hearafter "Madam"). The song is identified by the following stanza[1]:

Come, my little roving sailor,
Come, my little roving bee,
Come, my little roving sailor,
Come, sailor boy, won't you marry me?

Variants of this play-party stanza has been collected in western Maryland and Pennsylvania. In an area of Virginia along the Blue Ridge foothills (Franklin County and Rappahannock County) Cecil Sharp collected three versions of "Come my Little Roving Sailor" which, after the first stanza, where made up of stanzas of "Madam I Have Come to Court You." This was the text sung by Mr. Jacob Sowder at Callaway, Franklin Co., Va., August 14th 1918:

COME MY LITTLE ROVING SAILOR

Come my little roving sailor,
Come my little roving bee,
Come my little roving sailor,
Roving sailor, will you marry me?

Madam, I have gold and silver,
Madam, I have house and land,
Madam, I have a world of pleasure,
All shall be at your command.

What cares I for your gold and silver?
What cares I for you house and land?
What cares I for a world of pleasure?
All I wants is a handsome man.

Madam, do not stand on beauty,
Beauty is a fading flower;
The best rose in yonders garden
Fade away in one half an hour.

First they'll hug you and then they'll kiss you,
Then they'll call you honey, my dear.
They'll tell you more in half an hour
Than you'll find true in seven long years.

The last stanza is from the "Inconstant Lover" songs and is not part of "Madam." Sharp provided two complete texts and one first stanza which were later published in the second edition of Sharp's "English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians" (1932 edition, Karpeles editor). The other complete text collected by Sharp follows:

Come my Little Roving Sailor- sung by Mrs I.T. (Lucy) Cannady at Endicott, Virginia on August 22nd. 1918.

Come my little roving sailor,
Come my little roving bee
Come my little roving sailor,
Come sailor boy, won't you marry me?

Madam, I have gold and silver,
Madam, I have house and land,
Madam, I have a world of pleasure,
All shall be at your command.

What cares I for your gold and silver?
What cares I for your house and land?
What cares I for your world of pleasure?
All I want is a handsome man.

Madam, do not stand on beauty,
Beauty is a fading flower;
For the reddest rose in yonders garden
Will fade away in one half hour.

Two other versions of the identifying stanza have been collected in the US. Neither of the two versions has stanzas from "Madam" but both may be considered variants of the song. Florence Warnick in her JAF article, "Play-Party Songs in Western Maryland" (The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 54, No. 213/214 (Jul. - Dec., 1941), pp. 162-166) gives the following account of the Maryland version:

The play-party songs given below were used in Garrett Co., Maryland. Members of Protestant churches were not allowed to dance, but there was no bar to their playing swinging games, some of which were not very different from square dances. In the small backwoods community where the writer was reared, we often had no musical instruments, and almost everyone made an effort to sing the songs which we danced or played. All the verses that the writer and those whom she has consulted can recall are given.

II. COME, MY LITTLE ROVING SAILOR

Come, my little roving sailor,
Come, my little roving bee,
Come, my little roving sailor,
Won't you ring around with me?

Come, my little roving sailor,
Come, my little roving bee,
Come, my little roving sailor,
Won't you be right and left with me?

Come, my little roving sailor,
Come, my little roving bee,
Come, my little roving sailor,
Won't you change partners with me?

Come, my little roving sailor,
Come, my little roving bee,
Come, my little roving sailor,
Won't you promenade with me?


Very little variety is provided in this text and it's uncertain if the songs collected by Sharp are the same. The other identifying stanza with generic choruses was collected by Bayard from Levi Hall of Fayette County, Pennsylvania in 1944:

Come My Little Roving Sailor

Come, my little roving sailor,
Come, my little roving bee,
Come, my little roving sailor,
Won't you ring around with me?

Chorus: Granny will your dog bite?
No, child, no, child,
Granny will your dog bite?
No, child, no.

Alternative Chorus: Little Betty Martin,
Tiptoe, tiptoe,
Little Betty Martin,
Tiptoe fine.

Clearly the identifying stanza is the same as the one reported from western Maryland. Andrew Kuntz reports[2]: "The tune is used more for songs than dancing, states Bayard (1981), and in Ireland is joined to the ballad "William Taylor." In Pennsylvania it was a song and play-party tune, and was used as a dance tune by fiddlers."

The southwestern Pennsylvania tune is Dorian and resembles some of the archaic "Died for Love" tunes. Two of the Sharp versions are sung in minor keys: Cannady's tune is A pentatonic minor while Snowden's is in a hexatonic major key (A major). All of Sharp's tunes are in 3/2 time, have similar contours and seem to be from a similar source. Both the western Maryland tune and the southwestern Pennsylvania tune are reels in common time and seem to be possibly related.

There are several other tunes titled "Roving Sailor" without text which may or may not be related to the identifying stanza. Number 444. "The Roving Sailor" (G major, 4/4, tune only) from Dr. Brown of Mayo was published by Joyce in his "Old Irish Folk Music and Songs, The Forde Collection: Dublin, 1909 p. 250.

Kuntz reports[3] a fiddle reel titled "Roving Sailor" that was taken from "the 1938 typewritten manuscript of New Hampshire fiddler John Taggart (1854-1943), entitled "Recollections of a Busy Life" (New Hampshire Historical Society, Concord, N.H.). Taggart wrote in his ms. that the tunes "were all taught me during my boyhood days in Sharon (N.H.), by the various fiddlers in that vicinity" [Miller]. Miller points out that Sharon is in "the heart of the Monadnock Region of southwestern New Hampshire, where fiddlers and contra dances abound to this day" (Miller, Fiddler's Throne, 2004; No. 255, pg. 207).

The possibility exists that these reels are related to Bayard's tune with text however they should be considered different tunes and are listed as so by Kuntz. Only the three Virginia tunes with texts that were collected by Sharp can be considered related to "Madam."

[R. Matteson 2017]

_____________________________

Footnotes:

1. Sharp A as sung by Mrs I.T. (Lucy) Cannady at Endicott, Virginia on August 22nd. 1918.
2. From The Fiddler's Companion (www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/) A Descriptive Index of North American, British Isles and Irish Music for the Folk Violin and other Instruments by Andrew Kuntz.
3. Ibid. Kuntz reports three different versions titled "Roving Sailor" (Joyce, Bayard and Taggart versions) but does not mention the western Maryland version or the three versions collected by Sharp.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Richie
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 11:57 AM

Hi,

I'm working on 8G. Madam, I Have Gold and Silver (the Folk Plays).

In Plough Plays in the East Midlands by M. W. Barley (Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 7, No. 2 (Dec., 1953), pp. 82:

In addition to the usual song,

Behold the lady bright and gay
Good fortune and sweet charms,
So scornfully I've been thrown away
Right out of my true lover's arms;
He swears if I don't wed with him
As you will understand,
Hie'll go and list for a soldier
And go to some foreign land

the texts from Lusby, Branston and from the Bassingham group of villages also have the dialogue which has survived unchanged from the early nineteenth century, in which the wooer offers, unavailingly at first, gold and silver, house and land, rings and jewels.

The dialogue mentioned by Barley obviously refers to the gold and silver stanzas from Madam, however I find no record of these stanzas in a play from the early 1800s and the stanzas are not in the 1823 Bassingham play.

Anyone know when the stanza,

    Sergeant: Madam, I've got gold and silver
       Madam I've got house and land
       Madam I've got world and treasure,
       Everything at thy command.

first appeared in a folk play? What is the title of Lusby folk play?

Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Richie
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 12:34 PM

Hi,

The earliest version in the UK I've found so far is the Lincolnshire version collected by Carpenter from E. Andrew-Elsham-Brigg that dates to circa 1880 although it was collected c. 1934:

[LADY]: I am a lady bright and fair,
Me fortunes is me charms,
I was thrown away so scornfully
All from me lover's arms.
He promised for to marry me,
Which you will understand,
He listed for a soldier
And went to some foreign land.

SERGEANT: Madam, I've got gold and silver,
Madam, I've got house and land,
Madam, I've got worlds of treasure,
They are all at thy command (All will be at thy command)

LADY: What care I for thee gold or silver,
What care I for thee house and land,
What care I for thee worldly riches,
All I want is a nice young man.

FOOL: That's me, my dear!

LADY: Old man you are deceitful
As any of the rest.
But I shall have the young man
Which I do love the best.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Richie
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 01:15 PM

Hi,

I have a rough draft of 8G. Madam, I Have Gold and Silver (the Folk Plays)-- which I consider incomplete here:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8g-madam-i-have-gold-and-silver-folk-plays-.aspx

Hopefully I'll get more information about early folk plays that use the "gold and silver" stanzas.

It seems likely that the children's game songs were derived from the folk plays sometime in the mid-1800s.

Your comments and information are welcome,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Richie
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 12:26 PM

Hi,

Happy New Year to all. I have finished for now my study of "Madam" and its appendices.

I've proofed Madam again (it needed it): http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8-madam-i-have-come-to-court-you-.aspx

The last appendix (folk plays) is roughed in and has the following plays with stanzas of Madam:

    A. "Plough Monday Play" recreated from tradition about 1860 by Uncle Joe and Aunt Mary of Craney Creek, Kentucky. Collected by about 1930 Marie Campbell and published in JAF, 1938.
    B. "Plough Jags," taken from Elsham-Brigg of Lincoln learned about 1880. From James Madison Carpenter and the Mummers' Play by Steve Roud and Paul Smith (Folk Music Journal, Vol. 7, No. 4, Special Issue on the James Madison Carpenter Collection (1998), pp. 496-513).
    C. "Brattleby, Lincolnshire Mummers' Play" from Mrs E.H.Rudkin Collection. The words were noted by Alice Wright while the mummers still played about 1894. They were preserved In a Family Scrap Album.
    D. "Kirmington Plough-Jags Play," from Kirmington, Lincolnshire as published in R.J.E. Tiddy's "The Mummers' Play" Oxford, University Press, 1923, pp. 254-257. According to Greig: "This particular play seems to have been added to Tiddy's collection by Rupert Thomson, who edited the book for publication after the author was killed in action on August 10th, 1916."
    E. "Carlton-Le-Moorland Ploughboys," dated 1934; from Lincolnshire Plough Plays by E. H. Rudkin from Folklore, Vol. 50, No. 1 (Mar., 1939), pp. 88-97.
    F. "Barrow-on-Humber Plough Play," from a MS in M. W. Barley Collection, University of Nottingham Library. Performed at the Festival of Britain Pageant at Barrow-on-Humber, Lincolnshire, 1951.
    G. "Coleby Plough-Jag," recreated from an earlier tradition in 1974 by M.C. Ogg of Coleby, Lincolnshire from information by Mr. Roly Redhead of Burton on Stather and Mr. Arthur Gelder of Alkboro' Lane.

There may be others but theses are the ones that I found so far. The rough draft of the folk plays is here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8g-madam-i-have-gold-and-silver-folk-plays-.aspx

I've proofed the other appendices which are:

8A. "Oh No, John," "No Sir" and "she answered No."

8B. The Courting Case (Courting Cage); "O Miss, I Have A Very Fine Farm,"

8C. On a Mountain Stands a Lady (Children's game songs)

8D. The Quaker's Courtship, or, Quaker's Wooing

8E. The Spanish Lady ("Dublin City," "Madam, I'm a Darling," or "Chester City," "Galway City," "Ettrick Lady") All Spanish Lady variants (Five basic types).

8F. Come My Little Roving Sailor ("Roving Sailor")

8G. Madam I have Gold and Silver (Folk Plays)

Hopefully this study will shed some light on these songs,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 02:40 PM

Nice one, Richie!

Happy New Year!

Whither away now?

Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 02:56 AM

It may be heresy, but I think this is a cute song. Here's a cute recording by Oscar Brand with the Simon Sisters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD82pOhdrgI

I think the best-known U.S. recording of this song is the one by Paul Robeson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyweSQqquV4. Good, but not cute....