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Subject: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 31 Jul 17 - 01:15 PM Hi, After work on Died for Love, there were several stanzas related to the Died for Love songs that also appeared in Madam I've Come to Court You songs; the Ripest Apple stanza and Wheel of Fortune stanza. This study will try and get to the bottom of these humorous courting songs. There are many already in the DT and several good threads, however, the origin and relationships between the different versions have not been adequately studied. So this is my attempt. What I need first are any old print versions, antecedents and broadsides- as well as traditional versions from the 1800s or earlier. Here are some titles: "Madam, I Am/Have Come to Court You" (Come a-courtin') NA/UK "No, Sir" Eddy/Tolman "O No John" sharp/Somerset "Ripest Apples" UK "Twenty Eighteen" Broadwood/UK "The Spanish Merchant's Daughter" Stoneman "The Spanish Captain" UK "Spanish Lady" US/UK "Yonder Sits a Spanish Lady" UK "Yonder Sits a Pretty Creature" Williams "In Yonder Grove" Sharp/ also Baring Gould "Tarry Trousers" Irish/ Sam Henry "Wheel of Fortune" Irish/UK "Dublin City" Irish/UK "Ettrick Lady" Scottish/UK "The Quaker's Courtship" New England "Quaker's Wooing" Barry/New England "The (Lincolnshire) Handsome Woman" Boston/Roxburge "Vandy Vandy" Manley from NC "A Sport Song" Cazden "Sober Quaker" Dorson/ Eddy "The Lovely Creature" 1760 Broadside "Madam, I'm a Darling" Frank Harte/Scotland "She Always answers No" Peggy Seeger US These are a few of the main titles. There are two Roud numbers: 146 and 542. The texts are mixed but Roud 142 is for "Spanish Merchant's Daughter"/"Oh No John"/"No Sir" even though the texts are mixed. I assume "Spanish Merchant's Daughter" was adapted from an archaic "she answers no" version. There are several older versions with different text with the "No" answer. The concept is that the suitor asks questions that will advance his desire to seduce the lady-- even when she answers "no." A number of versions have this theme while others mix the "Madam" stanzas from the 1700s or just use the "Madam" stanzas. Any old broadsides or print versions from the 1600s, 1700s and 1800s are welcome- then we can get into various versions. TY Richie
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: ADD: The Lovely Creature From: Richie Date: 31 Jul 17 - 01:24 PM Hi, I'll start by posting one of the fundamental broadsides. This one, forwarded by Steve Gardham, is from item 11, The Tom Tit Part 1, of 17 songs and this is the 4th song, titled "The Lovely Creature." It is also titles after the first line "Yonder Sits a Lovely Creature." Here is the text: THE LOVELY CREATURE Yonder sits a lovely creature, Who is she? I do not know, I'll go court her for her features, Whether her answer be "Ay" or "no." "Madam, I am come to court you, If your favor I can gain, Madam if you kindly use me, May be I may call again." Well done," said she, "Thou art a brave fellow, If your face I'll ne'er see more, I must and I will have a handsome young fellow, Altho' it keep me mean and poor. "Madam I have rings and diamonds, Madam I have got houses and lands Madam I've got a world of treasure, All shall be at your command." What care I for rings and diamonds? What care I for houses and lands? What care I for worlds of treasure? So I have but a handsome man." Madam, you talk much of beauty, Beauty it will fade away, The prettiest flower that grows in summer, Will decay and fall away. First spring cowslips then spring daisies, First comes night love, then comes day, First comes an old love then comes a new one, So we pass the time away. A number of traditional versions have used a similar title including Butterworth's c. 1907 version with Mrs. Cranstone's text titled "Yonder Stands a Lovely Creature." Richie |
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Subject: ADD: No Sir! From: Richie Date: 31 Jul 17 - 04:27 PM Hi, Here's a print version of "No Sir" from: Songs and Ballads: 96 Songs - Words and Music W.F. Shaw, New York, c. 1881, dated 1882. It's also found in Shaw's "Gems of Minstrel Song" also dated 1882 and later in Delaney's Song book (New York). Shaw's version with music is "Sung by the leading Minstrels": NO SIR! "Spanish Ballad" Words and Music Arr. by A. M. Wakefield 1. Tell me one thing, tell me truly, Tell me why you scorn me so? Tell me why when asked a question, You will always answer no? CHORUS: No sir! No sir! No sir! No-- sir! No sir! No sir! No sir! No. 2. My father was a Spanish merchant And before he went to sea, He told me to be sure and answer No! To all you said to me. CHORUS 3. If I was walking in the garden, plucking flow'rs all wet with dew, Tell me will you be offended, If I walk and talk with you? CHORUS 4. If when walking in the garden, I should ask you to be mine, and should tell you that I loved you, would you then my heart decline? CHORUS This is a print version of the song also known as "Spanish Merchant's Daughter" or "Spanish Lady" that was sung in the US and UK in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The suitor asks questions expecting a "No" answer so he can win his love even with a "No" response. Several UK traditional versions titled "Oh No John" have a "garter" stanza and are racier (See Sharp's MS of Woolsey). It is not related in particular to "Madam" songs, although some version have mixed texts. The Roud number is 146. A.M. Wakefield, the arranger was from Kendal, UK. Here's a brief online bio: Mary Wakefield was born in 1853 at the Old House, Kendal, the daughter of a local banker, and lived later at Sedgwick House, near Kendal. From her earliest years, she was a talented singer who, after training with notable London teachers, gave many charity concerts, sang at the Gloucester Festival and was acclaimed by many eminent critics. Barred by the conventions of the day from pursuing a career as a professional singer, she poured her love of music into a desire to make music more available to rural communities. She founded and trained a number of choirs in the villages around Kendal and brought them together for the first time in 1885 to take part in a “Singing Competition” to raise money for Crosscrake Church. The idea took hold and within a few years a large choir could be assembled to sing larger works. Several of the choirs founded by Mary Wakefield still thrive and still support the Festival for which they were created. Mary Wakefield died in 1910 but her name and her Festival live on, still supported by the Wakefield family, along with many other local individuals and organizations, who all value her unique contribution to the musical life of this area." Several early versions from the 1600s have been given by Bruce Olson as possible antecedents. Any early print versions? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 31 Jul 17 - 04:31 PM I wouldn't call them antecedents, Richie. There are plenty of ballads that use the same trick but they needn't be related. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 01 Aug 17 - 11:50 AM Hi Steve, I quote Bruce Olson: "Consent at Last" in Scarce Songs 1 on my website. I take it to be the original of "No, John, No/ Spanish Merchant's Daughter". I understand your point that "No Sir" (posted above) is a modern adaptation of the 'No' response quite different than "Consent at Last.". It's also clear that the "Oh No John" or "No Sir" songs are different songs (Roud 146) that sometimes share the same stanzas as "Madam." That's why "Oh No John" or, "No Sir" songs need to be studied here. Sharp's "Oh No John" has the same first stanza as c. 1760 "The Lovely Creature" (see above). Another early 1600s broadside "The Dumb Lady; Or, NO, no, not I; Ile Answer" has the same formula or "trick" as you called it. Those versions which are antecedents of the "No" formula or trick but with entirely different texts should be explored. I'll post four, the first and last are missing the bulk of the stanzas. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 01 Aug 17 - 12:15 PM Hi, Here are four early versions with the "No" response to the suitor's inquiries. The first is given by Bruce Olson from "a manuscript version of about 1635-40, in Bodleian MS Ashmole 38 (a collection of single sheets from various sources bound together), is so badly waterstained that most of it is unreadable. The first of seven verses goes: Lady why doth love torment you May not I your grief remove? Have I nothing will content you With the sweet delights of Love. Oh, no, no, alas, no" I can't find it in the Bodleian. If anyone has a link or more information about this version, please post it here. * * * * The second version appears in Pills to Purge Melancholy, commencing in 1700; (III, p. 82, 1719), with a tune, and it goes as follows: Consent at Last. Ladys, why doth Love torment you? Cannot I your Grief remove? Is there none that can content you With the sweet delights of Love O No, no, no, no, no: O, No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Beauty in a perfect Measure, Hath the Love and wish of all: Dear, then shall I wait the Pleasure, That commands my Heart and all: O No, &c. If I grieve, and you can ease me, With you be so fiercely bent, Having wherewithal to please me, Must I still be Discontent? O No, &c. If I am your faithful Servant, And my Love does still remain; Will you think it ill deserved, To be favour'd for my pain? O No, &c. If I should then crave a Favour, Which your Lips invite me to, Will you think it ill Behaviour, Thus to steal a Kiss or two? O No, &c. All Amazing Beauty's Wonder, May I presume your Breast to touch? Or to feel a little under, Will you think I do too much? O No, &c. Once more fairest, let me try ye [.. only let me love you Now my wish is fully sped, [For my lippes...] If all Night, I would lye by ye, Shall I be refus'd your Bed? O No, &c. In this version the suitor has quickly figured out how to have his way even with a "No" answer. The third version is a broadside in the British Library- Roxburghe 2.111 as it was printed for P. Brooksy at the Golden-Ball in Pye-Corner between 1672-84: The Dumb Lady; Or, NO, no, not I; Ile Answer. To the Tune of, the Doubtful Virgin, or the new Borey; or Will you be a Man of Fashion. Underneath a little Mountain where I us'd my self to walk, By a pretty pleasant Fountain there I heard two Lovers talk Hah! said he my only Jewel, would you have your Lover dye, Can you be so fare and cruel no indeed quoth she not I, Why my dear my pretty Nancy, will you then torment my mind? If poor Willy you can fancy shew your self to him more kind. Or if you design my Ruine, I am willing for to dye But be short in my undoing Still she answered no not I. Why then pray will you torment me and take pleasure in my smart, When a kind look will content me will you frown to break my Heart, If it be my Nannys Pleasure on my Sword Ile freely die, Give the word my only Treasure Still she answered no not I. Bid me live and ile endeavour, every way to gain your Love If this be to great a Favor bid me from your eyes remove Deal with me as with a Creature as you please shall live or die Are you Mistress of ill Nature, Still she answered no not I. This indeed was more contenting, than what ere before she gave Tho it was not full consenting it encouragd her Flame. Should I tempt to kiss my fair one would you say dispair and die, Say my Love my only dear one Still she answered no not I. Then he laid his Arms, about her she the Posture did Approve, He resolvd no more to doubt her and by progress of his Love Gaind such conquest streight upon her that at last they swain cry Will you yield the Fort of Honour Still she answered no not I. But their was so little distance and so yielding a defence That he found all her resistance was but only complesence, Now said he you must surrender if I force you will cry? All she said so: to defend her Was indeed my dear not I. Hard it was at the first Sally for to say which side would beat, Tho poor Willey oft did Rally he as often did retreat: But what most deservd my wonder Willey he for all his Art, Tho he kept poor Nanny under was the first desird to part. Notice that the word "mountain" is used in the opening, where it's usually "hillside." Of the fourth and last version dated 1770s, I've only one stanza. It's titled "No! No! Sung by Mrs. Wrighten, at Vauxhall" (eighteenth-century slip, Harvard College, 25242.3, fol. 132). It begins:
That I might not be plagu'd with the nonsense of men, |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 01 Aug 17 - 12:54 PM Hi, I finally found the text to "No, No" sung by Mrs. Wrighten at Vauxhall. It's printed as a song in "The Choice Spirit's Chaplet: Or, a Poesy from Parnassus" by George Alexander Stevens, 1771.
[No! No!] SONG 144. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:33 PM Hi Richie, My comment on the use of the word 'antecedent' is only a personal preference really. In its widest sense it simply means something that has gone before but in the context of ballad evolution I prefer to use it as meaning a definite/likely variant of the later ballad, rather than just a motif or plot in common. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:55 PM Hi Steve, They are different texts with the same "No" response. The UK versions from the early 1900s have a "garter" stanza and Sharp's sanitized version like the one sung by Mrs. Wighten in the 1770s has a "marriage/church" stanza at the end. For now, we will shift back to the origin topic, leaving the "Oh No John/No Sir" versions. Here's a second early print version (dated c.1776) of "Madam/Lovely Creature" given to me by Steve from "British Library, item 1346 m 7, Broadsides 1 to 42, this being item 29, 3 songs of which this is the third." It's two stanzas longer than the first: A New Song ("Yonder Sits a Handsome Creature") dated c. 1776. Yonder sits a handsome creature, What she is I do not know, But I'll go court her for her feature, If her answer be not, "no." "Madam, I am come a wooing, If I can your favor gain, And if you make me kindly welcome, I perhaps will come again." "Set down you're kindly welcome, If I never see you more, But I must and I will have a handsome husband, Whether he be rich or poor." "Madam I've got gold and treasure, Madam I've got house and land Madam I've got rings and jewels, And all will be at your command." What care I for gold and treasure, What care I for house and land What care I for rings and jewels, If I had but a handsome man." Madam you have much of beauty, Which is a thing that soon will fade, For the brightest flower in the summer, Is the flower that soonest fades. After cowslips there comes roses, After night there comes day, After a false love there comes a true one, And so we pass the times away. Ripest apples are the soonest rotten Hottest love is the soonest cold Young men's love is soonest forgotten Maids take care be not too bold. He that has my heart a-keeping, O that he had my body too, For I shall spoil my eyes with weeping, Crying, "Alas! what shall I do?" The ending of "A New Song" is reminiscent of Died for Love: A maid falls in love with a false love and after they become lovers he abandons her and she is no longer a maid. He has her heart and had her body too-- but he is gone. The warning to all maids is taken from the first extant appearance of the Ripest Apple stanza: Young men's love is soonest forgotten Maids take care be not too bold. This message and the ending is delivered by a third party with a moral equivalent of the Died for Love ballads and songs. There is a disconnect between the message delivered by the rejected older suitor and the ending which, although similar, has shifted from the aged suitor to the third person or a narrator. The lack of a cohesive story line makes this courting song seem like a song that is simply about the rejection of the old unappealing suitor by a young beautiful woman who wants not money and possessions but a handsome man. Although her craving for beauty is shallow, her rejection of material wealth is not. It shows a confidence is her expressed desires. At the end when the rejected suitor tries to convince her of the temporary value of beauty it seems his argument has fallen on deaf ears-- the maid will have none of it. His argument is in itself contradictory for he desires the very thing which is transient- the maid's beauty (her features). The shift to third person or a narrator at the end proves that not only is the aged suitor rejected but the maid's handsome man has rejected her as well- an ironic twist. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 01 Aug 17 - 02:17 PM Hi, The significance of the "Ripest Apple" stanza and the "Wheel of Fortune" identifying stanzas associated with Died for Love is apparent in these next two traditional versions which date back to the 1800s in England and Ireland. A new counting chorus has been added and the title is sometimes "Twenty, Eighteen" and also "Ripest Apple." The first version sung by S. C. of Boston, Mass., a native of County Tyrone, Ireland was published with music in the article "Irish Folk-Song" by Phillips Barry in Journal of American Folklore, Volume 24, page 342. Barry relates: To Irish folk-singers, at least in the Northern States, we owe the presence of a large part of the folk-song current in this country. ... Yet very few Irish songs have become Americanized, — due doubtless to the exile's love of his native country. Two, however, are notable exceptions. Of these, one [is] a song of the camp, entitled "The Unfortunate Rake".... The other song is as follows: [Madam, I Have Come to Court Ye] 1. "Madam, I have come to court ye, If your favor I could gain. If you highly entertain me, I will surely call again. CHORUS: With my 20, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, and 1, With my 19, 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 3, and 1. 2. "Madam, I have gold and silver. Madam, I have house and land. Madam, I have worldly treasures, . . . . . . . . . . ." 3. "What care I for your gold and silver? What care I for your house or land? What care I for your ships on the ocean? All I want's a nice young man." 4. "Round about the wheel of fortune, It goes round and wearies me. Young men's ways are so uncertain, Sad experience teaches me!" Barry's Irish version has the Wheel of Fortune identifying stanza as the last stanza. A new chorus has appeared and this is the "Twenty, Eighteen" chorus that was known as well in the UK in the later 1800s. Barry's second chorus line is usually "12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, and none," to have the correct count and rhyme. About the same time Barry published "Madam" a similar version was printed from Norfolk, England in English County Songs edited by Lucy Etheldred Broadwood and John Alexander Fuller-Maitland, 1908. TWENTY, EIGHTEEN. 1 "Ho! yonder stands a charming creature, Who she is I do not know; I'll go and court her for her beauty, Until she do say yes or no." CHORUS: Twenty, eighteen, sixteen, fourteen, Twelve, ten, eight, six, four, two, nought; Nineteen, seventeen, fifteen, thirteen, Eleven, nine and seven, five, three, and one. 2 "Ho! Madam, I am come for to court you, If your favour I may gain; And if you will entertain me Perhaps I may come this way again,' Twenty, eighteen, &c. 3 "Ho 1 Madam I have rings and jewels, Madam, I have house and land, Madam, I have wealth of treasures, Ail shall be at your command." Twenty, eighteen, &c. 4 "Ho! what care I for your rings and jewels? What care I for your house and land? What care I for your wealth of treasures? All I want is a handsome man." Twenty, eighteen, &c. 5 "Ho! first come cowslips and then come daisies. First comes night and then comes day; First comes the new love, and then comes the old one, And so we pass our time away." Twenty, eighteen, &c. 6 "Ho! the ripest apple is the soonest rotten, The hottest love is the soonest cold; Lover's vows are soon forgotten, So I pray, young man, be not too bold." Twenty, eighteen, &c. The following final verse is given in Shropshire Folk Lore, pp. 552, 652: "But fare you well, my dearest creature, Since I have no more to say;" "O turn again, young man, I'll have you,'' But his answer was "Nay, nay!" Both versions from the UK in the late 1800s have music. Barry's version published in 1908 was learned by the informant, S.C. in Ireland in the 1800s. Broadwood's words and tune were taken from Besthorpe, near Attleborough, as quoted in the Musical Herald for September, 1891. An additional note found in "The Espérance Morris Book" by Mary Neal, Clive Carey, Geoffrey Toye, 1910 about the same version states: Sung by a carpenter at Besthorpe, Norfolk, to the Rev. J. T. Howard, and collected by John Graham for The Musical Herald, September, 1891. An old settler in Massachusetts fifty years ago used to sing at the end of the refrain, "I've done," instead of "And one." This suggests that the "Charming creature" had to say "Yes" or "No" by the time the figures were counted. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 01 Aug 17 - 06:37 PM Hi, The version quoted by Broadwood in the last post was from Shropshire Folk-lore, a Sheaf of Gleanings - Part 2, page 552, by Charlotte Sophia Burne, Georgina Frederica Jackson, 1885. Burne's principal Shropshire singers were Jane Butler, Harriet Dowley, and Sally Withington. Here's the text with the Burne/Jackson notes: "The Disdainful Lady" Sung by Harriet Dowley, of Edgmond, who knew no title to it. I have not met with it in any collection, but the first stanza slightly resembles a game-rhyme given ante (p. 509), and one in Folio Lore Journal, Vol. I. p. 387. Yonder stands a comely creature With her breast as white as snow, I'll go court her for her feature, Though her answer'll perhaps be no. "Madam, I am com'n a-courting, If your favour I can gain, And if you will entertain me, Perhaps that I may come again." "Sit you down, young man, you're welcome, If your face I see no more, For I will have a handsome young man, Whether he be rich or poor." "Madam, I've got gold and silver, Madam, I've got house and land, Madam, I've got great stores of riches, They all shall be at your command." "What care I for gold and silver What care I for your house and land, What care I for your your treasures, If I can have but a handsome man?" "Madam, you talk much of beauty, It's a flower that soon decays, The finest flower in the summer, It doth soonest fade away. The ripest apple's soonest rotten, The hottest love is soonest cold, A young man's word is soon forgotten, So, pretty maid, don't be so bold. "But fare you well, my dearest creature, Since I have no more to say." "O turn again, young man, I'll have you!" But his answer was, "Nay, nay." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 01 Aug 17 - 10:15 PM Hi, I'm posting two other old "She answered, No" versions. The first "A Warning for Maides" is attributed to Richard Crimsal and was "printed at London for John Wright, the younger, dwelling at the upper end of the Old- Bayley." It's dated circa 1636. It's taken from The Roxburghe Ballads, Volume 3, edited by William Chappell, 1880, p. 41. Original spelling kept. "A Warning for Maides, Or, The False Dissembling, Cogging, Cunning, Cozening Young Man, who Long Did Try and Use His Skill, to Woo a Coy Young Maid to His Will and when He Had Obtain'd Her Love, to Her He Very False Did Prove" by Richard Crimsal (Climsall- Roxburghe). To A DAINTY New TUNE, CALLED No, no, not I. All in a May morning, in the merry month of May, Into the green meddowes I did take my way; There I heard a young man to his love make reply; But she answered him scornfully, "No, no, not I." "Sweet heart," quoth this young man, "my love is intire, My heart is inflamèd with Cupid's hot fire: Your love I intreat, why should you deny ?" But she answered him scornfully, "'No, no, not I." "O sweet, 'tis thy love that I doe so much crave, And I will maintain you still gallant and brave; Faire mistresse, for your love I certain shall die." Quoth she, "Away! foolish man, I care not, I." "Will you seeke to wrong a man in such a case? If I die for love, it will be your disgrace; I hope you will yeeld me some other reply." But she answered him scornfully, "No, no, not I." "Sweet, have you no more regard of a young man, I will strive to doe thee all the good [that] I can ; Methinks you should yeeld unto me by and by." But she answered him scornfully, "No no, not I." "And if that all maids should be of your mind, Then what would or should become of us mankind Sweet, let you and I now try our destiny." But she answered him scornfully, "No, no, not I." "Pray, what is the reason, I am young and faire; Besides you doe know I am my father's heire: Sweet, let me intreat your love and courtesie." But she answered him scornfully, "No, no, not I." "For vaulting or leaping, or such exercises, For dancing or skipping, I still win the prizes; Come, grant me thy favour, my pretty pigsnie." But she answered him scornfully, "No, no, not I." "I am in all parts most compleat like a man, And I can do as much as any [man] can: Then, prethee, sweet heart, doe not my love deny." Now she answered him kindly, "Sweet love, not I." "If gold will content thee, why gold thou shalt have, Or any thing else that thou canst wish or crave: 'Tis onely on thy love that I doe rely." Now she had forgot to say, "No, no, not I." Finis * * * * The second "she answered, No" song "The Denying Lady" was printed by and for A. Milbourn, at the Stationers- Arms in Green-Arbor about 1684. The Denying Lady, Or, A Travellers Frolick with a Woman that Reply'd No to All Questions and Discourses Put to Her. Tune of, I marry and thank you too. Licensed according to Order. 1. AS I was upon the way, a Lady by me did go; I asked her what time of day, her answer to me was no. 2. Concluding she did not hear, I ask'd her how far to Bow; Instead of saying far or near, her answer to me was no. 3. Her humour methought was strange I wou'd not be baffled so; Madam will you a Kiss exchange? her answer it still was no. 4. She smil'd as she spoke to me, or else my Cake had been Dough; Will you said I, then angry be, her answer it still was no. 5. Encourag'd by this Reply, I on with my Tail did go; Won't you refuse my Company? her answer it still was no. 6. Thus I discover'd the way; her humour better to know; Will you Loves precepts disobey? her answer it still was no. 7. I offer'd her thewn my hand, she took it with pleasing show; Will you a Lovers wish withstand? her answer it still was no. 8. If I shou'd a Favour crave, you wou'd not offended grow; Or shall I not your Anger have, her answer it still was no. 9. Won't you be averse that we, together shou'd walk to Bow; Or sit a while beneath yon Tree? her answer it still was no. 10. The Tree was nearest by much, and thither we chose to go; Will you your sweet embraces grutch her answer to me was no. 11. I tumbl'd her gently down, and pleas'd her fancy I trow; For she gave me full twenty pou, her answer no more was no. 12. I rally'd my Forces then, and bravely attacqu'd my Froe; She swore I was the best of men, her answer no more was no. 13. I askt her House and Name, which no Body here shall know; She frankly did declare the same, her answer no more was no. 14. We oft repeated our sport, we were not Idle or slow; What e're I beg'd of her in short, her answer no more was no. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 02 Aug 17 - 12:12 AM Hi, In the US and Canada the "Madam I Have Come To Court You" line is also known in the "Quaker's Courtship" or "Quaker's Wooing" where it appears Madam, I am come a-courting." These different but related versions were popular in New England and especially well known in New York. Apparently "Quaker's Courtship" was written down by the 1850s, although the first extant sheet music was printed in New York in 1878. Most of the New England and Canadian versions feature a line, chorus, line chorus format: (HE) "Madam, I am come a-courting? Hum, hum, heigh-o hum! 'Tis for pleasure, not for sporting? Hum, hum, heigh-o hum! [W.W. Newell, 1883] While the female's answer features a different chorus: (She) "Sir, it suits me to retire, Teedle link turn, teedle turn a tee; You may sit and court the fire, Teedle link turn, teedle turn a lee." [W.W. Newell, 1883] This form is significantly different than the early English broadsides of c. 1760. The "Quaker" title is derived from the following stanza found in many New England versions: She) Yes I know you are flatterer Fall liddle li dum diddle lalla da But I never will marry a quaker Fal liddle li dum diddle lalla da. [Sheet music George Kanski, NY, 1878] This humorous courting song is not taken from the Quakers themselves but rather is a stereotypical image associated with the old suitor. Since the "Quaker" stanza is not found in the UK (see for a possible exception Baring-Gould children's song) it's assume that it is strictly a New England adaptation of "Madam" from the early 1800s. The print version of 10 stanzas (also written as 5 double stanzas) is very similar to the version published by Thompson of a Douglass MS which predates the first extant print version of 1878. The natural assumption would be that the Douglass version was based on an earlier unknown pre1850s print version. Here's the Douglass MS version with minor corrections dated c. 1850 (between 1841-1860): The Quaker's Wooing 1. He) Madam I have come a courting Hum hum hi ho hum More for pleasure than for sporting Hum hum hi ho hum 2. she) I'll go away 'tis my desire Fal liddle li dum diddle lalla da For you may sit and court the fire Fal liddle li dun diddle lalla da 3. He) I've a ring worth forty shillings Hum hum hi ho hum; Thou shalt have it if thou art willing Hum hum hi ho hum. 4. She) What care I for gold or money Fal liddle li dum diddle lalla da I'll have a man that will call me honey Fal liddle li dum diddle lalla da. 5. He) Madam I know thou art tall and slender Hum hum hi ho hum And I know thy heart is tender Hum hum hi ho hum. 6. She) Yes I know you are flatterer Fall liddle li dum diddle lalla da But I never will marry a quaker Fal liddle li dum diddle lalla da. 7. He) Must I give up my religion? Oh dear oh dear me; Must I be a Presbyterian? Oh dear oh dear me. 8. She) Cheer up cheer up my loving brother Fal liddle li dum diddle lalla da If you can't catch one fish catch another, Fal liddle li dum diddle lalla da. 9. He) Must I leave without a token Oh dear oh dear me Must I leave with my heart broken, Oh dear oh dear me. 10. She) Run right home and tell your daddy Fal liddle li dum diddle lalla da That I never will you marry Fal liddle li dum diddle lalla da. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 02 Aug 17 - 04:59 PM Hi, The Quaker's were a sect founded in England by George Fox about 1650. Members of the sect were called Quakers because they were said to "quake at the name of the Lord." Their belief was not based on any previous organized religion but they believed in pure Christian principles and on developing the spiritual inner light that "lighteneth every man that cometh into the world." As Jesus called his followers "friends" the Quakers sect became known as the Religious Society of Friends. Fox himself came to America several times and despite early persecution the Quakers were firmly established in Jersey, Rhode Island and by Quaker William Penn in Pennsylvania by the later part of the 1600s. In the early years of the movement "Quaker" was a term used by outsiders to convey contempt. It appears that this is the stereotypical image portrayed in the "Madam, I have Come to Court You" songs of early America. The Quaker in the song is a older man doting on a young attractive maid. This is the only extant printed "Quaker" version titled "The Quaker's Courtship." It was arranged by George Kanski and published in 1878 in New York by William A. Pond Co. It also has the full 10 stanzas although the stanzas are doubled here: "The Quaker's Courtship." 1. (He) Daddy sent me here a courting Oh! Oh! Oh! I'm in earnest, I'm not sporting Oh! Oh! Oh! (She) You sit there and court the fire, Teedling tee, tee, teedling ti, To be let alone is my desire, Teedling tee, tee, teedling ti. 2. (He) I've a ring worth twenty shilling Oh! Oh! Oh! Thou can'st have it if thou'st willing, Oh! Oh! Oh! (She) I want none of your rings and money Teedling tee, tee, teedling ti, I want a man to call me honey, Teedling tee, tee, teedling ti. 3. (He) Lady thou art tall and slender, Oh! Oh! Oh! And I know thy heart is tender Oh! Oh! Oh! (She) Sir, I think you are a flatt'rer, Teedling tee, tee, teedling ti, And I cannot marry a Quaker, Teedling tee, tee, teedling ti. 4. (He) Must I give up my religion, Oh! Oh! Oh! Must I become a Presbyterian? Oh! Oh! Oh! (She) Cheer up, cheer up, darling brother Teedling tee, tee, teedling ti, If you can't catch one fish go catch another, Teedling tee, tee, teedling ti. 5. Must I leave without one token, Oh! Oh! Oh! Must I leave with my heart broken? Oh! Oh! Oh! (She) You go home and tell your daddy, Teedling tee, tee, teedling ti, That you could not get me ready, Teedling tee, tee, teedling ti. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 02 Aug 17 - 05:30 PM Great stuff, RIchie. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 02 Aug 17 - 05:32 PM I have a theory that 'Madam, Madam' is one of those rare beasts that did not first appear in print. It is typical of the dialogues that were performed on village stages in costume in rural England and this could have been its origin, like a few others of similar type, some dating back several centuries. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 02 Aug 17 - 06:42 PM Hi, This version from Michigan in 1860 introduces a different form where the suitor offers a farm and farm animals. After he is rejected he hopes she'll freeze. This is usually called "The Courting Case" but Randolph called it, "The Courting Cage." A number of versions have been collected in the US where it is also found in the Appalachians. "The Wooing" was sung in 1934 by Mr. E. W. Harns, Greenville, who learned the song in Kalamazoo County, Michigan, about 1860. From Ballads & Songs of Southern Michigan, 1939, version A. 1 "Madam, I have come to marry you And settle in this town; My whole estate is worth Ten thousand pounds. Which I will will to you, If you will be my bride." 2 "O that's enough for me, I don't desire you." 3 "O madam, I have a very fine house, All neat and rectified, Which you may have at your command If you'll but be my bride." 4 "I know you have a very fine house Besides a clever barn, But you're too old to think to hold A bird with a single yarn." 5 "O madam, I have a very fine horse, Whose face is like the tide, Which you may have at your command If you'll but be my bride." 6 "I know you have a very fine horse, Which you keep in yonders barn, But his master likes a glass of wine For fear his horse might learn." 7 "O madam, I have a very fine field, Full fifty acres wide, Which you may have at your command If you'll but be my bride." 8 "I know you have a very fine field And a pasture at the foot, And if I had you, I'd turn you in, For I'm sure a hog would root." 9 "O madam, you are a scornful dame And very hard to please, And when you get old and pinched with cold, I swear I hope you'll freeze." 10 "And when I get old and pinched with cold, 'Twon't be you'll keep me warm; I'll be single and be free And stay as I was born." * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 02 Aug 17 - 07:46 PM Thanks Martin, Steve-- I think I just read about it being used in Mummers plays. I know that there are plays with the children's variant, "On the Mountain Stands a Lady" too. The latter versions are known as skipping games in the UK. The same title is used for children's games in Canada and of course the "Quaker's Wooing" versions was collected as a children's game in Connecticut and published in 1883 by W.W. Newell. I was just listening to several Scottish versions, which are usually titled "Ower Yon Hill there Lives a Lassie." I'll post one more version of Quaker's Wooing which I would imagine is from the early 1800s in Medfield near Boston. It is from the Allen family manuscripts which trace back through the family perhaps to the 1600s although their family songbook is dated 1899. I'm not suggesting that his version dates any earlier than the late 1700s, nor can I prove that it's even that old. Boston did not accept the Quaker religion at first. Here's a bit from Wiki: The Boston martyrs is the name given in Quaker tradition to the three English members of the Society of Friends, Marmaduke Stephenson, William Robinson and Mary Dyer, and to the Friend William Leddra of Barbados, who were condemned to death and executed by public hanging for their religious beliefs under the legislature of the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1659, 1660 and 1661. Several other Friends lay under sentence of death at Boston in the same period, but had their punishments commuted to that of being whipped out of the colony from town to town. "The hanging of Mary Dyer on the Boston gallows in 1660 marked the beginning of the end of the Puritan theocracy and New England independence from English rule. In 1661 King Charles II explicitly forbade Massachusetts from executing anyone for professing Quakerism. In 1684 England revoked the Massachusetts charter, sent over a royal governor to enforce English laws in 1686, and in 1689 passed a broad Toleration act."[Wiki] From "Some Traditional Songs," by Phillips Barry, 1905 JAF. As taken from a family MS collection entitled "Family Songs, compiled by Rosa S. Allen. Music arranged by Joseph A. Allen. As sung by the Allens at the Homestead, Castle Hill, Medfield, Massachusetts, 1899." The Quaker's Wooing. 1. "Madam, I have come to woo thee, O, hum, oh! Madam, I have come to court thee, Oh, hum, oh dear me!" "Get you gone, you saucy Quaker, Hi a dink a dady oh! I'll have none of your Quakerish actions, Kutty ka dink a dady oh!" 2 "I've a ring cost forty shilling, Oh, hum, oh, Thou shalt have it if thee art willing, Oh, hum, oh dear me!" "I'll have none of your rings or money, Hi a dink a dady oh! I'll have a man that calls me 'Honey,' Kutty ka dink a dady oh!" 3 "Must I then change my religion, Oh, hum, oh! And become a Presbyterian? Oh, hum, oh dear me!" "You must learn to lie and flatter, Hi a dink a dady oh, Else you never can come at her, Kutty ka dink a dady, oh!" * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 02 Aug 17 - 10:59 PM Hi, There are a few Scottish versions. This is the version of the Stewarts of Blairgowrie. The woman answers only in the last stanza. Ower Yon Hill There Lives a Lassie- sung by Belle Stewart (1906-1997) of Blairgowrie, Perthshire in 1955. Learned from her older brother, who got it from an uncle in Perth. Ower yon hill there lives a lassie But her name I do not know. And this nicht I will go an' see her, Whether she be high or low. Lassie I hae come to see thee, Bur perhaps it is in vain, But if you will kindly entertain me, Sure maybe I'll call back again. Oh Lassie I have got gold and silver, Lassie I have got diamond stone Lassie I have got the ships on the ocean, And they'll be yours love if you'll be mine. What care I for your gold and silver? What care I for your diamond stone? What care I for your ships on the ocean? Sure all I want is a good young man. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 03 Aug 17 - 10:39 AM Hi, Here's another Scottish version similar to the above but with the UK counting chorus combined with the identifying The Wheel of Fortune stanza. It was learned from 'twenty different folk' who sang it without the chorus much as Belle Stewart sang it (see above). "The Wheels of Fortune." Sung by Alexander Harley of Cupar, Fife who was a retired farm servant, born at Lucklaw Farm, Leuchars in 1908. Recorded by Hamish Henderson in 1981. This version was covered by Natalie Merchant & Michael Stipe. Ower yon hill there lives a lassie What is her name I do not know. Some fine nicht I'm going and see her, Whether she be rich or no. CHORUS: It's 19, 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, and a 5, 3, 1 20, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, none. 'Round and 'round goes the wheels of fortune; 'Round and 'round till they wearie me Young women's hearts are so uncertain, Sad experience teaches me. Oh Lassie I hae gold and silver, Lassie I hae houses and land Lassie I hae ships on the ocean, All to come at your command. CHORUS: Oh what care I for your gold and silver? What care I for your houses and land? What care I for your ships on the ocean? When all I wants is a good young man. CHORUS: * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 03 Aug 17 - 11:33 AM Hi, The only extant UK version of Quaker's Courtship comes from Sabine Baring-Gould: "A Book of Nursery Songs and Rhymes," p. 35, 1895, Methuen and Co. London. It was "collected from a Devonshire nurse." Whether this was brought to the UK from the US is unknown. The Quaker Song O dear me! I've lost my lover! Hum-hum-hum-hum-hum! How shall I his loss recover? Hum-hum-hum-hum-hum! 'Seek him dearest, thou shalt find him, Fa-la-la-la-la-li-gee-wo. Seek him when the spirit moves you, Fa-la-la-la-la-li-gee-wo. O but how he does disdain me! Hum-hum-hum, etc. His cruel looks have almost slain me! Mum-hum-hum, etc. As for looks they need not matter, Fa-la-la, etc. You must learn to fawn and flatter, Fa-la-la, etc. 'But that dreadful sin of lying, Hum-hum-hum, etc. A guilty conscience when I'm dying, Hum-hum-hum, etc. 'Love and conscience ne'er went courting, Fa-la-la, etc. Youth and death is ill consorting, Fa-la-la, etc. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 03 Aug 17 - 06:14 PM Hi, Even with two Roud numbers and dividing "No Sir/oh No John" and "Madam, I am Come a-Courting," many versions are a composite of the two. This example is from Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/9/2813). There is a "she answered No" chorus but then it stops after the second stanza. it's assumed that she still answers No. No Sir- sung by Lucy Garrison of Manchester, Kentucky on 11 August, 1917 as collected by Cecil J. Sharp. 1. Yonder stands a pretty fair maiden With her hands as white as snow, I'll go and court her for her beauty, Till she answers Yes or No, Yes or no, yes or no, Till she answers Yes or No. 2. "Madam, I am come a-courting, If your favor I do gain, And [if] you'll kindly entertain me, Then perhaps I'll come again." Aha no, no, sir no, Every Answer to me was No. 3. "Madam I have gold and silver, Madam I have house and land, Madam I have a ship on ocean, It may be at your command." 4. "I don't want any of your gold and silver I don't want any of your house and land, I don't want any of your ship on the ocean All I want is a handsome man." 5. Tell me one thing tell me truly, Tell me why you scorn me so, Tell me why when I ask a question You will always answer, No. 6. My father was a Spanish sailor And before he went to sea, Told me to be sure to answer, No Sir, To everything you said to me. 7. If you're walking in your garden Plucking flowers all wet with dew, Tell me would you be offended, If I walked and talked with you? 8. If when walking in your garden I should ask you to be mine, If I tell you that I love you Would you then my heart decline? 9. If you were sitting in your parlour, Well content as you'd wish to be, Would it be a misbehaviour For me to come and sit with thee? 10. There we sat and there we courted, Till the chickens began to crow. All in the world I had to ask her, [If she would] open her arms and let me go. The first 4 stanzas are "Madam" whilst the last are Spanish Sailor/No Sir" stanzas. This version was found in Kentucky in 1917 and surely dates back to the 1800s. Even though it has stanzas from the printed No Sir versions of the late 1800s -- it would seem to pre-date those. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Aug 17 - 02:41 AM Here's a performance of "No John No" by Oscar Brand with the Simon Sisters (Carly and Lucy). I think people need to see it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD82pOhdrgI |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 04 Aug 17 - 11:33 AM TY Joe, Here's Michael Stipe of REM fame and Natalie Merchant singing an ad lib duet of "The Counting Song" at a live performance in 1989. How they got Alexander Harley's version of "The Wheels of Fortune" (see lyrics three post back) I don't know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2id_GPZBGc Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 04 Aug 17 - 11:39 PM Hi, "No Sir" was very popular in US (see text above) and widely printed there in the late 1800s. The first extant printed version of "No Sir" was W. F. Shaw's version with music arranged by Miss A. M. Wakefield that calls the song a "Spanish Ballad" which was "Sung by the leading Minstrels." According to Cecil Sharp her arrangement was very popular. He reports a quote from her in Somerset Folk Songs, "I first heard something like this from an American Governess. . . neither words or music were at all complete. I wrote it down and it got a good deal altered. I never regarded it as a folk song." [quote from Mary Wakefield, a talented singer from Kendal, b. 1853] The print version of "No Sir" was reprinted a number of times and was "very popular." It entered tradition and versions have been titled "Spanish Merchant's Daughter" or "Spanish Captain" and also "Spanish Lady." It was was sung in the US and UK in the early 1900s sometimes mixed with stanzas of "Madam." Since the printed "minstrel" version of "No Sir" was adapted from tradition, the stanzas are from pre1881 tradition. Any version with the exact same order and the "No Sir" chorus is obviously from print. The 1916 version in the Wolford book "The Play-Party in Indiana" is exactly like the 1881 print. Even though "Oh No John" is very similar and has the "Spanish captain" stanza there are differences. In both versions the suitor asks questions expecting a "No" answer so he can win his love even with a "No" response. When the core stanzas of "No Sir" and "Oh No John"are compared, only have the Spanish Captain stanza is held in common. There are a number of composites and separating the two would be difficult but the print version of No Sir is different. The fundamental "Oh John version was collected by Cecil Sharp in 1907 from William Wooley of Bincombe, Over Stowey, but heavily revised. Sharp compares the melody to Billy Taylor and relates that the theme is similar to Keys of Heaven, another courting song. Oh No John (first two stanzas from William Wooley of Bincombe in 1907, composite of 4 versions) On yonder hill there stands a creature, Who she is I do not know. I'll go and court her for her beauty; She must answer Yes or No. O No John! No John! No John! No! My father was a Spanish captain - Went to sea a month ago, First he kissed me, then he left me - Bid me always answer No. O No John! No John! No John! No! O Madam in your face is beauty, On your lips red roses grow, Will you take me for your lover? Madam, answer Yes or No. O No John! No John! No John! No! 0 Madam, I will give you jewels, I will make you rich and free, 1 will give you silken dresses; Madam, will you marry me? Oh No, John! No John! No, John! No! O Madam since you are so cruel, And that you do scorn me so, If I may not be your lover, Madam, will you let me go? O No John! No John! No John! No! O hark! I hear the church bells ringing, Will you come to be my wife? Or dear Madam, have you settled To live single all your life? O No John! No John! No John! No! Woolsey's original version has a "garter" stanza and is much racier which is why Sharp changed it. Here's Woolsey's original text from Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/9/1285): Oh No John On yonder hill there stands a creature, Who she is I do not know. I'll go and court her for her beauty; She must answer Yes or No. O No John! No John! No John! No! On her bosom were bunches of posies, On her breast where flowers grow, If I've a chance to touch that posy She must answer Yes or No. O No John! No John! No John! No! My father was a Spanish captain - Went to sea but a month ago, And the very last time we kissed and parted, He always bid me answer No. O No John! No John! No John! No! "Madam, shall I tie your garter? Tie it a little above your knee, If my hand should slip a little farther Would you think it amiss of me?" O No John! No John! No John! No! One night they went to bed we together There they lay till cocks did crow Then they sport till the daylight was breaking Now it's time for us to go. O No John! No John! No John! No! **** Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 05 Aug 17 - 12:32 PM Hi, Another variant from the 1800s are the children's games versions usually appearing as these two titles: "On a Mountain Stands a Lady" and "Lady on Yonder Hill." I have not been able to trace them earlier to the 1700s-- anyone that has any old versions please post or provide info. Clearly they are related to "Madam, I am come to Court You" which is used for the first stanza. The following is from "Dictionary of British Folk-lore, Volume 1" edited by G. Laurence Gomme, 1894: I. There stands a lady on the mountain, Who she is I do not know; All she wants is gold and silver, All she wants is a nice young man. Choose one, choose two, choose the fairest one of the two. The fairest one that I can see, Is pretty, walk with me. —Barnes, Surrey (A. B. Gomme). II. There lives a lady on the mountain, Who she is I do not know; All she wants is gold and silver, All she wants is a nice young man. Choose one, choose two, Choose the fairest of the few. Now you're married I wish you joy, Father and mother you must obey; Love one another like sister and brother, And pray, young couple, come kiss one another. —Colchester (Miss G. M. Frances). III. Here stands a lady on a mountain, Who she is I do not know; All she wants is gold and silver, All she wants is a nice young man. Choose you east, and choose you west, Choose you the one as you love best. Now Sally's got married we wish her good joy, First a girl and then a boy; Twelve months a'ter a son and da'ter, Pray young couple, kiss together. —Berrington (Shropshire Folk-lore, pp. 509, 510). IV. Stands a lady on the mountain, Who she is I do not know; All she wants is gold and silver, All she wants is a nice young beau. Take her by the lily-white hand, Lead her across the water; Give her kisses, one, two, three, For she is her mother's daughter. —Shipley, Horsham (Notes and Queries, 8th series, i. 210, Miss Husk). V. There stands a lady on a mountain, Who she is I do not know; All she wants is gold and silver, All she wants is a nice young man. Now she's married I wish her joy, First a girl and then a boy; Seven years after son and daughter, Pray young couple kiss together. Kiss her once, kiss her twice, Kiss her three times three. —Wrotham, Kent (Miss D. Kimball). VI. There stands a lady on the ocean [mountain], Who she is I do not know her; All she wants is gold or silver, All she wants is a nice young man. Choose once, choose twice, Choose three times over. Now you're married I wish you joy, First a girl and then a boy; Seven years old a son and daughter, Play and cuddle and kiss together. Kiss her once, kiss her twice, Kiss her three times over. —Deptford (Miss Chase). VII. There stands a lady on the mountain, Who she is I do not know: Oh! she wants such gold and silver! Oh! she wants such a nice young man! Now you're married I wish you joy, First a girl and then a boy; Seven years after a son and a daughter, Kiss your bride and come out of the ring. —Berkshire (Miss Thoyts, Antiquary, xxvii. 254). (V) A ring is formed, one child in the centre. The ring sing the first verse, and then the centre child chooses one from the ring. The chosen pair kiss when the ring has sung the second. The first child then joins the ring, and the game begins again. In the Barnes version the centre child calls one to her from the ring by singing the second verse and naming the child she chooses. (c) A version from Lady C. Gurdon's Suffolk County Folklore (p. 62) is the same as previous versions, except that it ends— Now you're married you must be good, Make your husband chop the wood; Chop it fine and bring it in, Give three kisses in the ring. Other versions are much the same as the examples given. (d) This game has probably had its origin in a ballad. Miss Burne draws attention to its resemblance to the " Disdainful Lady" (Shropshire Folk-lore, p. 561), and H alii well mentions a nursery rhyme (No. cccclxxix.) which is very similar. Mr. Newell (Games, p. 55) prints words and tune of a song which is very similar to that ballad, and he mentions the fact that he has seen it played as a round by the "Arabs of the street." He considers it to be an old English song which has been fitted for a ring game by the addition of a verse. See "Lady on Yonder Hill." Lady on Yonder Hill I. Yonder stands a lovely lady, Whom she be I do not know; I'll go court her for my beauty, Whether she say me yea or nay. Madam, to thee I humbly bow and bend. Sir, I take thee not to be my friend. Oh, if the good fairy doesn't come I shall die. —Derbyshire (Folk-lore Journal, i. 387). 11. There stands a lady on yonder hill, Who she is I cannot tell; I'll go and court her for her beauty, Whether she answers me yes or no. Madam, I bow vounce to thee. Sir, have I done thee any harm? Coxconian! Coxconian is not my name; 'tis Hers and Kers, and Willis and Cave. Stab me, ha! ha! little I fear. Over the waters there are but nine, I'll meet you a man alive. Over the waters there are but ten, I'll meet you there five thousand. Rise up, rise up, my pretty fair maid, You're only in a trance; Rise up, rise up, my pretty fair maid, And we will have a dance. —Lady C. Gurdon's Suffolk County Folk-lore, p. 65. (b) In the Suffolk game the children form a ring, a boy and girl being in the centre. The boy is called a gentleman and the girl a lady. The gentleman commences by singing the first verse. Then they say alternately the questions and answers. When the gentleman says the lines commencing, "Stab me," he pretends to stab the lady, who falls on the ground. Then he walks round the lady and sings the last verse, "Rise up," and lifts up the lady. In the Derbyshire game only three children play, the lover, lady, and fairy. The girl stands a little distance oft". The lover says the first four lines, then approaches the lady, falls on one knee, and says the next line. The lady replies, and retires further away. The lover then falls on the ground and says the next line. As this is said the good fairy appears, touches the fallen lover with her hand, and he is immediately well again. (c) This is a curious game, and is perhaps derived from a ballad which had been popular from some more or less local circumstance, or more probably it may be a portion of an old play acted in booths at fair times by strolling players. It is not, as far as I can find out, played in any other counties. The lines—• Over the water at the hour of ten, I'll meet you with five thousand men; Over the water at the hour of five, I'll meet you there if I'm alive, are portions of a dialogue familiar to Mr. Emslie, and also occur in some mumming plays. It may also be noted that the curing of illness or death from a stab is an incident in these plays, as is also the method of playing. The first lines are similar to those of "Lady on the Mountain," which see. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 05 Aug 17 - 03:49 PM Hi, "The Roving Sailor" or "Come my Little Roving Sailor" is an Irish and also American variant related to the melody of "Oh No John" (Billy Taylor). It's known as a play-party or dance song. Here's one text from Sharp's EFSSA: THE ROVING SAILOR Sung by Mr. Jacob Sowder at Callaway, Franklin Co., Va., August 14th 1918. Come my little roving sailor, Come my little roving bee, Come my little roving sailor, Roving sailor, will you marry me? Madam, I have gold and silver, Madam, I have house and land, Madam, I have a world of pleasure, All shall be at your command. What cares I for your gold and silver? What cares I for you house and land? What cares I for a world of pleasure? All I wants is a handsome man. Madam, do not stand on beauty, Beauty is a fading flower; The best rose in yonders garden Fade away in one half an hour. First they'll hug you and then they'll kiss you, Then they'll call you honey, my dear. They'll tell you more in half an hour Than you'll find true in seven long years. If anyone knows any Irish or UK variants, please post them, TY Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 06 Aug 17 - 04:43 PM Hi, "Madam" is also known as a children's song in North America-- the following examples correspond to the time of the UK versions by Gomme, published 1894. From Lippincott's Monthly Magazine, Volume 37, 1886. Song Games and Myth Dramas at Washington, by W. H. Babcock There are other ring—games in which love does not divide the interest with death, but forms the sole subject-matter. In one of these what must have been originally a dialogue is blended into a continuous song, in which all join: Here she stands, a lovely creature; Who she is I do not know. Madam, I have gold and silver, Madam, I have ships on the ocean, Madam, I have house and land. What care I for your gold and silver? What care I for ships on the ocean? What care I for house and land? All I want is a fine young man. Then a member of the ring is selected by the one in the middle to take his or her place. * * * * Journal of American Folklore, Volume 31, 1917. "Canadian Folk-Lore from Ontario" by F.W. Waugh Play Rhymes A Cornwall informant quotes (Dec. 11, 1909) a version formerly heard at Colborne, Ont., which he supposes to be Irish. "Here sits a Spanish lady, Who she is I do not know. Come and court her for her beauty, Whether she say yes or no." The next verse began, – "Madam, I have come a-courting, Your kind favor to obtain." The young man set forth his qualifications: — "Madam, I have gold and silver, Madam, I have houses and land; Madam, I have ships on the ocean, And they're all at your command." The lady then scornfully remarked, "What care I for your gold and silver? What care I for your houses and land? What care I for ships on the ocean? All I want is a nice young man." The young man then returned, – "Madam, I have gold, etc., And, besides, I'm a nice young man," — after which they both lived happily. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 08 Aug 17 - 10:37 PM Hi, I'm wondering about he source of the Irish song, "The Spanish Lady." Here's a standard set of text: Spanish Lady As I went down to Dublin city, at the hour of twelve at night, Who should I see but a Spanish lady, washing her feet by candlelight. First she washed them, then she dried them over a fire of amber coal, In all my life I ne'er did see a maid so sweet about the soul CHORUS: Whack fol the toora, toora laddy Whack fol the foora loora lay As I came back through Dublin city at the hour of half past eight Who should I spy but the Spanish lady brushing her hair in the broad daylight. First she tossed it, then she brushed it, on her lap was a silver comb In all my life I ne'er did see a maid so fair since I did roam. CHORUS As I went back through Dublin city as the sun began to set Who should I spy but the Spanish lady catching a moth in a golden net. When she saw me then she fled me lifting her petticoat over her knee In all my life I ne'er did see a maid so shy as the Spanish lady. CHORUS I've wandered north and I've wandered south through Stonybatter and Patrick's Close Up and around the Gloucester Diamond and back by Napper Tandy's house. Old age has laid her hand on me cold as a fire of ashy coals In all my life I ne'er did see a maid so sweet as the Spanish lady. CHORUS I can't see any relationship with this and the courting song, "Madam" or the "No Sir" or "Oh No" versions that have Spanish Captain stanza. Is there any relationship? Obviously the "counting chorus" or "Twenty, Eighteen" has been added (see Frank Harte's version) and sometimes the Wheel of Fortune stanza is added after (see the Scottish "Wheel of Fortune" above) to extend the chorus. In this Scottish version the beginning of the Irish "Spanish Lady" is used: Spanish Lady - sung by Mary Cruickshank of Aberdeenshire; collectd Greig, published in 1910. As I went up thro' Edinburgh city, half-past twelve o'clock at night, There I spied a Spanish lady dressing herself with candle light. She had a basin full of water and a towel into her hand. Five gold rings on every finger, like an angel she did stand. Oh she was a charming creature, what she is I do not know. But I'll go court her for her beauty, whether she be high or low. "Madam, I am come to court you, if your favour I could gain. If you gently entertain me maybe I'll come back again." "Sit ye doon, ye're harty welcome, whether ye come back or no. All I want is a handsome young man whether he be high or low." "Madam, ye talk much of beauty, that's a flower will soon decay. The fairest flower in all the summer, when winter comes it doth fade away." * * * * Joseph Campbell included two stanzas of The Spanish Lady that he took down in Donegal in 1911 in his play: Judgment: A Play in Two Acts By Joseph Campbell, 1912 The Stranger breaks into a verse of a song. As I walked down thro' Dublin City At the hour of twelve in the night, Who should I see but a Spanish lady Washing her feet by candlelight. First she washed them, and then she dried them Over a fire of amber coal: Never in all my life did I see A maid. . . John (endeavouring to talk the song down). When'll the coffin be here, Owen? Stranger. Can't you listen? It's a good song. Never in all my life did I see A maid so neat about the sole! * * * * So what is the earliest source of this Irish "Spanish Lady" text? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 09 Aug 17 - 07:06 PM Hi, I have some info supplied by Steve Gardham. The two stanzas of Campbell's poem (above) are from tradition. The rest was recreated by Campbell and has become the Irish song "The Spanish Lady." The two traditional stanzas are: As I walked down thro' Dublin City At the hour of twelve in the night, Who should I see but a Spanish lady Washing her feet by candlelight. First she washed them, and then she dried them Over a fire of amber coal: Never in all my life did I see A maid so neat about the sole! An intermediate arrangement such as the one Campbell collected was also used in the Scottish versions of the Spanish Lady (see Grieg's version in last post). An antecedent of the two stanzas collected by Campbell is found in the erotic folksong collection of the late 18th century, "The Frisky Songster." The 1776 edition is found online in the Jack Horntip Collection. It was first printed circa 1770 in London, or Dublin. Reprint copies include (1776) Bodleian, Harding Collection; (1802), Kinsey-ISR Library. Here are the first stanzas which compare to Campbell's version and to the Scottish versions: SONG LXXXIII. AS I went through London city, Twas at twelve o'clock at night, There I saw a damsel pretty, Washing her joke by candle-light. When she wash'd it then she dr'd it, The hair was black as coal upon it In all my lif I never saw, A girl who had so fine a c--t. The remainder of the bawdy song is not applicable to the evolution of the stanzas which become The Spanish Lady. The song was reprinted in "The Merry Muses: A Choice Collection of Favourite Songs Gathered by Robert Burns" in 1827 as "The Ride in London" with the same text: https://books.google.com/books?id=XZVkAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA115&dq=%22AS+I+went+through+London+city%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3u-K_1MzV Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 10 Aug 17 - 09:05 AM Hi, "Spanish Lady" by Joseph Campbell (1879-1944) As I went out through Dublin City, At the hour of twelve o´clock at night, Who should I see but a Spanish lady, Washing her feet by candle light. First she washed them and then she dried them, Over a fire of ambery coal, In all my life I never did see, A maid so neat about the sole. I stopped to peep but the watchman passed, And says, "Young fellow, the night is late, Get home to bed or I'll wrastle you, At a double trot through the Bridewell gate! So I waved a kiss to the Spanish lady Hot as the fire of cramsey coals I've seen dark maids though never one So white and neat about the sole. Oh she´s too rich for a poddle swaddy With her tortoise comb and her mantle fine A hellfire buck would fit her better, Drinking brandy and claret wine. I'm just a decent college sizar, Poor as a sod of smouldering coal, And how would I dress the Spanish lady, And she so neat about the sole? O, she'd make a mott for the Provost Marshal, Or a wife for the Mayor in his coach so high, Or a queen of Andalusia, Kicking her heel in the Cardinal's eye. I'm as blue as cockles, brown as herrings, Over a grid of glimmery coal, And all because of the Spanish lady, So mortial neat about the sole. I wandered north and I wandered south, By Golden Lane and Patrick's Close, The Coombe, Smithfield and Stoneybatter, Back by Napper Tandy's house. Old age has laid its hand upon me Cold as a fire of ashy coal And where is the lovely Spanish lady The maid so neat about the sole? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 10 Aug 17 - 03:15 PM "Poddle" rather than "Poodle", methinks - it's a Dublin river. To me, "swaddy" should be "squaddy" - but I've a vague memory of another argument? Regards |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 10 Aug 17 - 03:29 PM Hi, TY Martin- it is poddle (my typo) and I'll fix that. It's also "swaddy" and tho it could be "squaddy" it's not the way Campbell's original text appears, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Reinhard Date: 10 Aug 17 - 04:03 PM Pete Coe explains in the liner notes of his recent CD The Man in the Red Van: A 'Poddle swaddy' is a local working class lad [from Poddle, a small river in Dublin], a 'mott' is a girl friend or mistress and a 'sizar' is a poor scholarship student at Trinity College. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 11 Aug 17 - 11:03 PM Hi, The name, "Spanish Lady" is found in several variants: 1) Scottish (Grieg-Duncan) and Irish traditional versions presented above from the late 1800s and early 1900s. These versions suggest an intermediary antecedent rewritten from the bawdy print version of the late 1700s. 2) Campbell's poem and subsequent versions based on Campbell's poem. 3) Some versions of "Oh No John." 4) The Mary Wakefield version of "No Sir" as well as subsequent version based on it. 5) Traditional versions of "No Sir." 6) Versions of "Madam" with Spanish Lady replacing "Lovely Creature" (see for example, Cox's "Spanish Lady" in Folk Songs from the South, dated 1916 but years earlier). Although we don't know when Spanish Lady replaced the "pretty maid" of the bawdy songs, it must have happened by the early 1800s to have been distributed to remote areas of America, Ireland and Scotland. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 13 Aug 17 - 08:39 AM Hi, Scotland and Ireland were not the only source of the "Spanish Lady" opening stanza. Here's is a version from Five English Folk Songs taken from Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 1, No. 3 (Dec., 1934), pp. 130-137: TWENTY, EIGHTEEN [MADAM, I HAVE COME TO COURT YOU.] Sung by FRED YELDHAM, July 12th, 1911, and on Oct. 5th, 1911 by Mrs. Hollingsworth, Thaxted. Noted by CLIVE CAREY. 1. As I walked through London city After twelve o'clock at night, There I saw a Spanish lady Washing and ironing by candle light. CHORUS: Fal the ral the riddle al the ray-do, Fal the ral the rid-dle all the day, Fal the ral the rid-dle all the ray-do, Fal lal la the rid-dle all the day. Twenty, eighteen, sixteen, fourteen, twelve, ten, eight, six, four, two, none; Nine-teen, seventeen, fifteen, thirteen, eleven, nine, seven, five, three, and one. 2. Madam I have come to court you If your favour I should win; If you make me kindly welcome Then perhaps I'll come again. Chorus, etc. 3. Madam I've got rings and jewels, Madam I've got house and land, Madam I've the world of treasure, If you'll be at my command. Chorus, etc. 4. What care I for your rings and jewels, What care I for your house and land, What care I for your world of treasure, All I want is a handsome man. Chorus, etc. 5. Madam you trust much in beauty, Beauty dies and fades away. The finest flower in the garden growing, Summer goes it fades away. Chorus, etc. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 14 Aug 17 - 09:45 PM Hi, The original (c.1760s) broadsides of "Madam" must have been popular in England by the 1850s. In his 1846 book, "The Nursery Rhymes of England, obtained principally from oral tradition," Halliwell gives this English version: "MADAM, I am come to court you, If your favour I can gain." "Ah, ah!" said she, "you are a bold fellow, If I e'er see your face again!" "Madam, I have rings and diamonds, Madam, I have houses and land, Madam, I have a world of treasure, All shall be at your command." "I care not for rings and diamonds, I care not for houses and lands, I care not for a world of treasure, So that I have but a handsome man." "Madam, you think much of beauty, Beauty hasteneth to decay, For the fairest of flowers that grow in summer Will decay and fade away. Although missing the opening stanza, this short version has many of the core stanzas. It was published in several of editions of Nursery songs in 1846 and reprinted many times. In 1911 a version of "Madam" was titled after the Ripest Apple stanza. It was collected from Hampshire gypsies by Alice Gillington and published in her 1911 book of gypsy songs titled, "Songs of the Open Road": Ripe is the Apple Love Ripe is the apple love, that soon will be rotten, love, Hot is the love that will soon be cold, Young man's beauty will soon be forgotten, Maids take care be not too bold. "O madam, O madam, I have gold and silver, Madam, O madam, I have houses and land; Madam, O madam, I've a world of treasure, And to be at your command!" What care I for the world of treasure, What care I for the houses and land? What care I for rings and silver, So all I gain is a handsome man? Handsome men are out of fashion! Young women's beauty will not stay! like the fairest flower in the midst of summer It will die and fade away. Subsequently other songs with the Ripest Apple stanza were sometimes titled "Ripest Apple." According to Steve Gardham the Roud master title for "Madam" is "Ripest Apple" although it is at best a secondary stanza. An example of a version from the 1960s follows. Here is a version correctly titled Ripest Apples that was collected from Copper family: Ripest Apples Ripest apples soon gets rotten, Hottest love it soon gets cold. Young man's love is soon forgotten. Since the girls have been so bold. Twenty, eighteen, sixteen, fourteen. Twelve, ten, eight, six, four, two, none. Nineteen, seventeen, fifteen, thirteen. Eleven, nine, seven, five, three and one. Though I never went to college, but I heard the poet say: Twenty, eighteen, sixteen, fourteen, twelve, ten, eight, six, four, two, none. The notes for Veteran Recording VT115 say: In 'The Copper Family Song Book - A Living Tradition' (1995) Bob Copper, while relating to his family's version of this song, says that this was the shortest song Jim (Copper) knew and he had developed a terrific speed in the chorus ' … Twenty, eighteen, etc.', and thereby frequently qualified for the free pint of beer offered by the landlord of the local inn to be first man to sing a song." Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:28 AM Hi, The fact that "Madam" was sung in Virginia c. 1780 shows that the two English broadsides of c. 1760s were probably not the earliest prints. There are a number of significant versions of "Madam" from North America as well as a traditional stanza from "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" which dates this song to the late 1700s in the US. In 1822 Virginia Congressman and Senator John Randolph (1773-1833) born in Cawsons, Virginia, wrote his niece and asked if she had heard a ballad with the following verse that he had heard as a child: What care I for your golden treasures? What care I for your house and land? What care I for your costly pleasures? So as I get but a handsome man. This dates the song to c.1780 in Virginia. To reach America "Madam" would have to first be tradition in England and then have been brought to Virginia-- events that took time in the 1700s. The first full US version, "Yonder Stands a Handsome Lady" was collected from the journal of the Diana, a ship harbored in New York under Captain Hay in 1819. Here's the text from Hungtington's "Songs the Whalemen Sang": Yonder stands a handsome lady Who she is I do not know Shall I yon and court her for her beauty What says you madam yes or no. Madam I have gold and silver Madam I have house and land Madam I have a world of treasures And all shall be at your command What care I for your gold and silver What care I for your house and land What care I for your world of treasures All I want is a handsome man Madam do not count on beauty Beauty is a flower that will soon decay The brightest flower in the midst of summer In the fall it will fade away. The sweetest apple soon is rotten The hottest love now soon is cold A young man's word is soon forgotten The coffin is the end of young and old. A man may drink and not be drunken A man may fight and not be slain A man may court a handsome lady, And be welcome there again. The verses are standard except the last verse which is similarly found in Barnyards of Delgaty. This version also was probably known in the 1700s in America. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Aug 17 - 11:00 AM Richie, even in the 18th century songs could cross the Atlantic in weeks. Printed versions could easily have been taken across by migrants and they do spread rapidly. Many migrants headed west to make their fortunes. It may well have been that your Virginia congressman's family brought a printed copy over. Example, early 19th century German ballad translated into French and enters oral tradition, next turns up in Portugal, In the late 19th century is collected in oral tradition alive and well in Brasil. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 15 Aug 17 - 09:51 PM Hi Steve, The Randolph stanza from c.1780 seemed like it's much older since it was sung to him then by a "mulatto servant girl of my Cousin Patsy Banister, called Patience. . ." Since Randolph was born in Virginia, he didn't bring it over. Here's the complete excerpt from "John Randolph of Roanoke, 1773-1833: A Biography. . ." by William Cabell Bruce - 1922: A peculiar intimacy existed between John and one of the younger Banisters, and, in a letter to his niece, Elizabeth Tucker Coalter, dated Feb. 20, 1822, he furnishes us with some interesting evidence of his familiar footing, when a boy, with his Banister kin. "Do you know," he asks her, "a ballad that used to be sung to me, when I was a child, by a mulatto servant girl of my Cousin Patsy Banister, called Patience, about a rich suitor offering 'his lands so broad' and his golden store to a girl of spirit whose reply was somehow thus? What care I for your golden treasures? What care I for your house and land? What care I for your costly pleasures? So as I get but a handsome man. Perhaps, old Aggy, who was my dear and honored mother's hand-maiden in 1769, when my father led her a spotless and blushing virgin to the altar, can remember it. I pry' thee get me that ballad. I can give you the tune." What could be more, to use one of Randolph's own phrases, a la Virginienne than the figures which this delightful scrap of retrospection brings before us; the "sassy" yellow girl disdainfully tossing her head, and yet but partly smothering the amorous glow behind her half-closed lids as she sings, the aged retainer, of whom we shall hear more anon, handed down from mother to daughter, and from daughter to granddaughter, and cherished not only for the sake of her own dog-like fidelity and simple virtues, but for the sake of the sacred dead, whose tire-woman she first was, and the old slave-holder, for even at forty-eight John Randolph was an old man in everything but years, still carrying in his memory, the words, and in his heart, the melody, of the bye-gone plantation ditty, unheard by his material ear, except perhaps when hummed by himself, for upwards of forty winters. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 16 Aug 17 - 05:25 PM Whilst there is is every possibility that the song is older than 1760 there is also equally every possibility that the song came over, either in print or orally, in about 1760 with English migrants and the servant girl had picked it up from one of them. Until further evidence presents itself the Aldermary Churchyard version at about 1760 is the oldest we can date it. >>>seemed like it's much older<<< Is this a genuine feeling or just wishful thinking? Remember the 'Billy and Sally' incident which turned out to be a double hoax? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 16 Aug 17 - 08:02 PM Hi Steve, Patsy (Bland) Banister was born in Virginia in 1739 and died about the time her cousin John Randolph learned the stanza of "Madam." Her husband John Banister, was Delegate to Continental Congress and it was her servant, called Patience, that knew the ballad. I doubt the date when Patience learned the ballad that Randolph heard about 1780 will ever be known. Randolph, however, thought that it would have been known by the older servants indicating that at least he thought it to be older and local. Since he was there and he heard the ballad sung, I defer to his assessment that Elizabeth Coalter might find the ballad sung by Old Aggy, his mother's handmaiden in 1769. Randolph thought the ballad to be older and passed down by the servants. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 16 Aug 17 - 09:22 PM Hi, This version of the Spanish Lady" is found in "Folk Songs of Middle Tennessee: The George Boswell Collection" edited by Charles K. Wolfe- 1997; also in "Bulletin - Volumes 42" - Page 140, 1974. "Carbon City" is found in the US but it resembles Frank Harte's "Chester City." Here's a rare version from North America: "The Spanish Lady" sung by Nancy McCuddy Stevenson of Clarksville, TN on Dec. 5, 1953, learned from her father. (Compare the ending with Clancy Brothers version) 1. I went down to Carbon City, Twelve or one o'clock at night, There I saw a Spanish lady, Dressing by the candlelight. CHORUS: Larry a-ma-lowdin, liden, looden, Larry a-ma-1owdin liden lay. 2. With a vessel of cold water And a mirror in her hand, With her hair down over her shoulders, Like an angel she did stand. Chorus: 3. I can drink and not get drowsy, I can fight and not get slain. I can court a Spanish lady And be welcome back again Chorus: 4. Did you ever see a pewter vessel, Mended with a copper pan? Did you ever see a Spanish lady, Married to an Irishman? Chorus: * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 17 Aug 17 - 10:56 AM Hi, The other important arrangement of Spanish Lady (Spanish Lady V) was made by Irish composer Herbert Hughes (May 16, 1882– May 1, 1937). The Spanish Lady. "Old Song." Adapted and arranged by H. Hughes. Dedicated to Hugh Campbell Stracathro. Publisher: London and New York : Boosey & Co, 1930. The 1930 recording with Hughes playing piano and McCafferty singing can be heard here: https://www.itma.ie/digital-library/sound/cid-230911 I walked down thro' Dublin city At the hour of twelve at night, who should I spy but a Spanish lady Washing her feet by candlelight. First she washed them and then she dried them, Over a fire of ambery coal, In all my life I ne'er did see, A maid so neat about the sole. CHORUS: Whack for the toora, loora lady Whack for the toora loora lee. Whack for the toora, loora lady Whack for the toora loora lee. As I came back thro' Dublin city At the hour of half past eight Who should I spy but a Spanish lady Brushing her hair in broad daylight. First she tossed it, then she brushed it, On her lap was a silver comb In all my life I ne'er did see So fair a maid since I did roam. CHORUS: As I went down thro' Dublin city, When the sun began to set, Who should I see but the Spanish lady Catching a moth in a golden net. When she saw me, then she fled me Lifting her petticoat over the knee In all my life I ne'er did spy A maid so blithe as the Spanish lady! CHORUS: Hughes text has also entered tradition. There are five specific variants of the Spanish Lady, some used in the courting songs: Spanish Lady I: Derived from the 1776 bawdy song which has been reworked. The first two stanzas are found in tradition with Spanish Lady instead of "pretty maid" and are followed by stanzas of "Madam" sometimes with the "Twenty-Eighteen" chorus and/or other choruses. Spanish Lady II: The Spanish Lady as found in "No Sir" and "Oh No, John." She is the daughter of a Spanish merchant or Spanish sailor or captain. Spanish Lady III: The Spanish Lady found as the poem of the same title by Irish poet Joseph Campbell based off the first two stanzas he collected of Spanish Lady I. Campbell's poem is sung and has entered tradition and is sometime sung with the "Twenty-Eighteen" chorus and/or other choruses. Spanish Lady IV: The name "Spanish Lady" is found replacing "lovely creature" in a number of versions including children's game songs. "Here sits a Spanish lady" [JAF, Ontario, 1909 children's song]; See also Cox, Folk Songs of the South, 1925. Spanish Lady V: An arrangement with new text of Spanish Lady for piano and voice by Irish composer Herbert Hughes. It was based on the first two stanzas (1911) supplied by Joseph Campbell from tradition. Hughes text also has entered tradition. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Aug 17 - 11:05 AM Some of these Campbells (if not all) should be 'Joseph'. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 17 Aug 17 - 11:24 AM Hi, TY Steve, will make that correction, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 18 Aug 17 - 11:24 AM Hi, Making sense of the many variations of Spanish Lady is not easy. The Dubliners and also the Clancy Brothers (with Tommy Makem) both have similar arrangements that combine both Campbell's poem and Hughes arrangement. Here's my transcription of Clancy Brothers: Spanish Lady- Tommy Makem and the Clancy Brothers from "Irish Pub Songs." [instrumental, fiddle] As I came into Dublin city, At the hour of twelve at night, Who should I spy but a Spanish lady, Washing her feet by candlelight. First she washed them, then she dried them Over a fire of ambery coal, In all my life I ne'er did see A maid so sweet about the sole. CHORUS: Whack fol the toora, toora laddy Whack fol the foora loora lay (2x) As I came back through Dublin city At the hour of half past eight Who should I spy but the Spanish lady Brushing her hair in the broad daylight. First she brushed it, then she tossed it, On her lap was a silver comb In all my life I ne'er did see A maid so sweet since I did roam. CHORUS As [yet again] I came back through Dublin city As the sun began to set Who should I spy but the Spanish lady Catching a moth in a golden net. When she saw me then she fled me Lifting her petticoat o'er her knee In all my life I ne'er did see A maid so fair as the Spanish lady. CHORUS I've wandered north and I've wandered south Through Stonybatter and Patrick's Close Up and around the Gloucester Diamond Back by Napper Tandy's house. But old age has laid her hand on me [tempo slows] Cold as a fire of ashy coal But where is the lovely Spanish lady Neat and sweet about the sole. CHORUS 2X [original tempo] * * * * A second version, "Galway City" with stanzas of "Madam" was recorded by the Clancy Brothers with Tommy Makem in New York in 1965 and appears on their 1966, "Isn't It Grand Boys" album. Tommy Makem got it from: "Sean O'Boyle, the well-known folk collector and Gaelic scholar" [born June 14, 1946 in Armagh, Ireland]. Galway City- Clancy Brothers from Sean O'Boyle of Armahg (He:) As I walked out through Galway City At the hour of twelve at night, Whom should I spy but a handsome damsel, Combing her hair by candlelight. Lassie, I have come a-courting, Your kind favors for to win, And if you'd but smile upon me, Next Sunday night I'll call again. Chorus: Raddy at a toodum, toodum, toodum, Raddy at a toodum, toodum day. Raddy at a toodum, toodum, toodum, Raddy at a toodum, toodum day. (She:) So to me you came a-courting, My kind favors for to win, But 'twould give me the greatest pleasure If you never did call again. What would I do, when I go walking, Walking out in the morning dew? What would I do when I go walking, Walking out with a lad like you? Chorus. (He:) Lassie, I have gold and silver, Lassie, I have houses and land. Lassie, I have ships on the ocean, They'll be all at your command. (She:) What do I care with your ships on the ocean? What do I care with your houses and land? What do I care with your gold and silver? All's I want is a handsome man. Chorus (He:) Did you ever see the grass in the morning, All bedecked with jewels rare? Did you ever see a handsome lassie, Diamonds sparkling in her hair? (She:) Did you ever see a copper kettle, Mended with an old tin can? Did you ever see a handsome lassie Married off to an ugly man? Note the last stanza is similar to the one collected in Tennessee in 1953 (see above). Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 18 Aug 17 - 12:47 PM Hi, Here are two versions of "Madam, I'm a Darling," also known as "Chester City" (see DT link). The "Madam, I'm a Darling" title is named after the chorus which, in turn, is ironically similar to the words "Madam I'm come a courting." It was recorded in 1975 and is on the "Frank Harte: . . . and Listen To My Song" LP. Here are his notes: MADAM I'M A DARLING — This is another version of the type of song similar to the Spanish Lady. I have no idea of its origin or of the reference in the first line to "Chester City". I heard the song at a session in Kerry where it is Rabelaisian humour was much to the delight of the locals. I am sure that if this song had been collected in Victorian times it would have been stripped of its honest humour to suit the taste of the drawing room, as has been done with the Spanish Lady and so many of the English and Scottish ballads. I give it to you as I heard and enjoyed it. Another version called "As I strayed Through Dublin City" is very similar to this song. Madam, I'm a Darling (Chester City)- sung by Frank Harte, 1975 As I came down to Chester City, In the dark hour late at night Who should I meet but a fair young maiden Washing her clothes by the broad moon light Chorus: Madam I'm a darling a-di-ro-didero Madam I'm a darling a-di-ro-dee First she washed them, then she squeezed them Then she hung them up to dry Then she folded up her arms Saying what a nice young girl am I! Going to the well for a pail of water Bringing it home for to make the tea She fell over, I fell under All the game was above the knee Madam I will tie your garter, I'll tie it above the knee If you like, I'll tie it up farther Madam I'm a darling a di-ro-dee Madam you have gold and silver Madam, you have tracts of land Madam you ships on the ocean All you need is a nice young man! It also appears in "Songs of Dublin" edited by Frank Harte in 1978. * * * * A second version can be heard here: http://www.dublincity.ie/songs-murder-madams-and-mayhem/madam-im-darling They've changed the city to Dublin City. Madam, I'm a Darling." Performed by Anne and Niamh Buckley As I rode out through Dublin city It being the dark hour twelve at night Who should I see but a fair young maiden Washing her clothes in the pale moon light Chorus (after each verse): Madam, I'm a darling, a di ro, a dither o Madam, I'm a darling, a di ro dae First she washed them, then she squeezed them And then she hung them out to dry Then she folded up her arms Saying what a nice, young girl am I. Going to the well for a pale of water Fetching it home for to make some tae [tea] She fell over, I fell under All the game was above her knee Madam, I will tie your garter I will tie it above your knee And if you like I'll tie it up further Madam, I'm a darling, a di ro de Madam, I'm a darling, a di ro de Have you ever heard of cups and saucers Rattlin' around in an auld tin can? Have you ever heard of a fair, young maiden Married to an ugly, gray old man? And blue it is a lovely colour Until it gets the second dip Well that's the way with the old man courting You never know till he gets those fits Madam, you have gold and silver And madam, you have tracks of land Madam you have ships on the ocean All you need is a fine, young man. There is an additional stanza associated with Spanish Lady/Madam that begins: "And blue it is a lovely colour" See a similar stanza in the several of versions of the "Madam" family ("Madam, Madam, You Came Courting" sung by William Gilkie, Sambro, NS, September, 1950). The "Madam, I will tie your garter" stanza is common to the "Oh No John" songs. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 18 Aug 17 - 05:56 PM Hi, Another "Spanish Lady" variant is "Ettrick Lady" recorded by the Scottish folk group the Corries in 1975. This version is a re-write of "Galway City," a variant of "Madam" that Tommy Makem got from Irishman Sean O'Boyle (see original above). Ettrick Lady- sung by The Corries from the Album: Live from Scotland Volume 2; 1975 [Mando solo] As I gang doon the Ettrick Highway At the hour o' twelve at night; What should I spy but a handsome lassie, Combin' her hair by candlelight. Lassie, I have come a-courtin', Your kind favors for to win; And if you but smile upon me, Next Sunday night I'll call again. CHORUS: Falla-talla ru-dum, ru-dum, ru-u-dum; Falla-talla ru-dum, ru-dum-day! (2X) So to me you came a-courtin', My kind favors for to win; But 'twould give me the greatest pleasure If you never would call again! What would I do, when I go walking, Walking out in the Ettrick view; What would I do when I go walking, Walkin' oot wi' a laddie like you? - Chorus - Lassie, I have gold and silver, Lassie I have houses and land Lassie, I have ships on the ocean, They'll be all at your command. What do I care for your ships on the ocean? What do I care for your houses and land? What do I care for your gold and silver? When all I want is a handsome man! - Chorus - [mando solo] Did you ever see the grass in the mornin', All bedecked with jewels rare? Did you ever see a handsome lassie, Diamonds sparkling in her hair? Did you ever see a copper kettle, Mended wi' an auld tin can? Did you ever see a handsome lassie Married up tae an ugly man? - Chorus- (2x) * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:31 PM Hi, Frank Harte sang The Spanish Lady in 1973 on his Topic LP "Through Dublin City." Harte said in the album liner notes: For too long this fine old Dublin song has been sung mainly by choral groups and concert sopranos. I remember the song from childhood and it has grown as I heard verses of it year after year. In some versions the last verse ends— She had 20 18 16 14 12 10 8 6 4 2 none She had 19 17 15 13 11 9 7 5 3 and 1, meaning "she had the odds and the evens of it"—- in other words she had everything. The Spanish Lady- sung by Frank Harte at The Trinity Inn on June 12, 1998. Listen: https://www.itma.ie/goilin/song/spanish_lady_frank_harte As I was a-walking through Dublin City About the hour of twelve at night, It was there I saw a fair pretty female Washing her feet by candlelight. First she washed them and then she dried them Around her shoulder she pegged a towel, And in all me life I never did see A maid so neat about the sole. CHORUS: She had 20 18 16 14, 12 10 8 6 4 2 none, She had 19 17 15 13, 11 9 7 5 3 and 1. Well I stopped to look but the watchman passed "Say, young fellow, the night is late Along with you home or I will wrassle you Straightway though the Bridewell Gate." I got a look from the Spanish lady Hot as the fire of ambry coals And in all my life I never did see A maid so neat about the sole. CHORUS: As I walked back through Dublin City As the dawn of day was o'er Oh, who should I spy but the Spanish lady When I was weary and footsore. She had a heart so filled with loving And her love she longed to share, And in all my life I never did meet with A maid who had so much to spare. CHORUS Well, I've wandered north and I've wandered south By Stoney Batter and Patrick's Close; And up and around by the Gloucester Diamond Back by Napper Tandy's house. But old age has laid her hands upon me Cold as a fire of ashy coals But gone is the lovely Spanish lady Neat and sweet about her sole. CHORUS 2ND CHORUS: And round and round goes the Wheel of fortune, Where it rests it wearies me, Young maid's hearts are so uncertain, Sad experience teaches me. CHORUS Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 18 Aug 17 - 11:40 PM Hi, The first published version similar to Frank Harte's version with the two choruses was in 1948. It was titled "Dublin City" and was collected about 1944 [my date, Ives was back in NYC Dec. 1943] by a once Illinois farm-boy living in New York City from an Irish bartender on Third Avenue. This singer included it on his first album in 1945, "A Collection of Ballads and Folk Songs" (Personality Series. Album No. A-407. New York: Decca Records). Did Frank Harte get part of his version from Burl Ives, an itinerant Illinois farm boy? Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. Here's the story behind the 1945 recording and the song, "Dublin City" which was published in "Wayfaring Stranger: An Autobiography" by BURL IVES. (Whittlesey House, 1948. McGraw-Hill Book Company, Inc. New York: It was lunchtime and I began to feel hungry. The aroma of beer drifted past my nostrils, my head turned toward it, and I followed my nose into a little bar-restaurant on Third Avenue. The bar stretched along one wall; opposite was a row of tables covered with red-and-white checked cloths. A man and woman were seated at a table eatinsf boiled beef and white potatoes. An old man sat sipping a glass of beer at the end of the bar, his back toward the street. Further along the bar a grocery clerk sat in a white apron and coat and a hard-brimmed straw hat. I took a bar stool and ordered a beer and a salami sandwich. Above the bar were two Irish thorn canes crossed like swords. When the bartender spoke, my guess that he would be an Irishman was confirmed. He had the Irish kind of face that all good Irish bartenders have. He called my order to the kitchen. "Coming up," the cook called back. The bartender mopped up the bar and served me a beer. Nobody spoke except the couple at the table and they spoke in quiet tones. An elevated train roared by every minute or two, trucks and taxicabs made gross music as they stopped, started and tooted their horns. The bartender took a clean cloth and started to polish the glasses stacked before the mirror behind the bar. As he twisted the white cloth in and out and around the glasses he hummed a melody in a minor key over and over. His song was interrupted by the cook who handed him a plate with my sandwich. He mopped the bar in front of me, and his cloth absorbed the rings of wet beer made by my glass. "What was that tune you were humming?" I asked. He looked at me, surprised and embarrassed. "And was I hummin' a tune?" "Yes, you were, and a very nice tune." He shook his head, "If my life depended on it, I couldn't repeat it." I started to eat. He served a beer to the old man and began to polish the glasses again. Soon he was humming the tune. I took a pencil from my pocket, drew a musical staff on my paper napkin, and jotted down the notes of the melody. I called him for another beer, and when he stood before me I said, "What is the name of this song?" I sang his tune back to him. "Why, that's a song I sang as a young man in Dublin. Where did you hear it?" I told him it was his melody, and he was much impressed and looked at the notes on the paper napkin. "What do you think about that now?" was all his amazement could utter. I asked him if he could recall the words. "I think so," he said, and quietly he sang as only an Irishman can sing his own songs: As 1 was a walkin through Dublin City About the hour of twelve at night, It was there I spied a fair, pretty maid, Washing her feet in candle light. First she washed them, and then she dried them, Around her shoulders she pegged a towel, And in all me life I ne'er did see, Such a fine young girl, upon my soul. She had 20, 18, 16, 14; 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, none; She had 19, 17, 15, 13; 11, 9, 7, 5, 8 and one: Round round, the wheel of fortune Where it stops wearies me. Fair maids they are so deceivin' Sad experience teaches me, She had 20, 18, 16, 14; 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, none. She had 19, 17, 15, 13; 11, 9, 7, 5, 3 and one. When I had learned the song and put a guitar accompaniment to it, I made an acetate record at a little voice-reproduction shop and brought it to my friend the bartender. When I saw him a few weeks later he told me that he had gathered all his friends together to listen to it. He said it was his most prized possession. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Reinhard Date: 19 Aug 17 - 03:14 AM There is a reference to Burl Ives in the notes to the two-verse fragment of Dublin City on the 1961 Caedmon album Songs of Seduction which was sung by Seamus Ennis to Alan Lomax in Dublin in 1951: "Burl Ives used to sing another version of this song, which begins: A I walked out in Dublin city About the hour of twelve at night, I spied a fair young maiden Washing her feet by candlelight, In the refrain, she appears to be counting, but in reverse series, running from twenty to nothing and from nineteen to one. If one combines this refrain with the second stanza of the present version, perhaps the song may make sense as a picture of a market girl or a prostitute summing up her day's receipt of coins. On the other hand, perhaps, the first stanza here is another of the many instances in Irish folk song of an encounter with a feminine symbol of the spirit of depressed Ireland—in this case a revolutionary one. Now it appears that Seamus Ennis has collected a version with an number of stanzas linking the song with No, John, No or Keys of Heaven (see text). My guess is that these stanzas are an addict and an afterthought, but what the song really concerns, no one can be sure. Perhaps Robert Graves could offer on of his reasonable, supernatural explanations." Seamus Ennis sings: As I walked through Dublin City at the hour of twelve at night, Who should I see but a maiden beauty, combing her hair with a four-pronged pike? Chorus (after each verse): Turry-idle-ido-dido-dido, Turry-idle-ido-dido-day. As I walked again through Dublin, on the same or another night, Who should I see but the same fair maiden, counting her cash by the candlelight? This is extended by verses sung by Matt Linehan, Kerry that were collected by Seamus Ennis: I says, "Fair maid I come you a-courting, your fine features for to win, If you'll kindly entertain me some dark night I'll call again." She says, "Kind sir, you've come me a-courting, my fine features for to win, And if I kindly entertain you, you may never call again." She sent me very tight all over, including the crown of my old hat, I pulled out my "pouse" revolver and let fly a terror shot. When I heard the answer that she made me, I called her a bloody bean, "Don't you know to whom you're talking? I am Linnehan from Lisheen. "I have gold and I have money, I have cattle and I have land, I have ships upon the ocean ready to sail at my command." "I don't want your gold or money, I don't want your cattle and land, I don't want your ships from the ocean; all I want is a fine young man." Courtin' women is foolish folly and marryin' women is just the same. Courtin' women when they're not willin' is like throwin' water against the stream. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 19 Aug 17 - 11:37 AM Hi, TY for that post Reinhard. Curiously, Lomax wrote the notes for Ives 1945 Decca album "A Collection of Ballads and Folk Songs." I couldn't find those notes online. Anyone? Since the version Ives collected has this line "Around her shoulders she pegged a towel" plus the "Wheel of Fortune" refrain which are also found in Frank Harte's version, it seems possible that Harte used part of Ives recording for his arrangement. Ives account of how he learned Dublin City from an Irish bartender in NYC would seem to contradict the account of him singing the song to his mother-- as if he learned it at an early age in Illinois. An additional note about Norfolk version of "Twenty Eighteen" found in "The Espérance Morris Book" (1910) by Mary Neal, Clive Carey, Geoffrey Toye, states: An old settler in Massachusetts fifty years ago used to sing at the end of the refrain, "I've done," instead of "And one." This suggests that the "Charming creature" had to say "Yes" or "No" by the time the figures were counted. The use of the "Twenty, Eighteen" chorus was also found in "The Queen's Health" given with music in "Songs Collected from Sussex" by Ralph Vaughan Williams, Cecil J. Sharp, G. S. K. Butterworth, Frank Kidson, A. G. Gilchrist and Lucy E. Broadwood (Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Vol. 4, No. 17 (Jan., 1913), pp. 279-324). Broadwood traced the tune for this and "Madam" to scarce ballad-opera of "Achilles" (1733). Her notes follow: 7.-THE QUEEN'S HEALTH. SUNG BY G. KNIGHT, AIR Noted by George Butterworth. HORSHAM, APRIL, 1907. 1. See and view this glass of liquor, How inviting it does look, It makes the lawyer prattle quicker, And a scholar burn his book. CHORUS Twenty, eighteen, sixteen, fourteen, twelve, ten, eight, six, four, two, none, Nineteen, seventeen, fifteen, thirteen, 'leven, nine, seven, five, three and on. 2. It makes a dead horse try to caper, And a dumb man try to sing, It makes a coward draw his baton, So here's a health to our Good Queen. Twenty, eighteen, etc. Opinion is divided as to whether this is a Dorian tune or an "everlasting" tune in the Ionian (or major) mode. This is surely a favourite old Irish tune. Wedded to new words about "Sheela of the Silver Eye" it became extremely popular again in one form, a few years ago, owing to the singing of Mr. Plunket Greene. The earliest printed version that I know is in the scarce ballad-opera of "Achilles" (1733). It is worth comparing with the traditional " health," which probably was sung before Queen Victoria's accession seeing that "sing" should rhyme with " king." - L. E. B. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 20 Aug 17 - 02:40 PM Hi, The version below by Findlater (below) introduces the "tarry trousers" found in several other versions of Spanish Lady/Madam. I have the version from Sam Henry. Does anyone have The Tarry Trousers, "Yonder stands a pretty little maiden" from O Lochlainn, More Irish Street Ballads (1965) p.243 ? Oh, Dear Oh (Spanish Lady)- Sung by Ethel Findlater of Orkney. Learned about 1914 from her cousin Bella who sang a chorus after every two verses, though Ethel thinks even that is too often. Listen: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/64119/3 1 Walking up Edinburgh city, At the back of twelve o'clock at night, There I spied a Spanish lady Dressing herself with candlelight. 2 "Madam I have come to court you, What you are I do not know; Madam I have come to court you, If your answer should be No." (chorus) Oh, dear Oh, if I had a sailor, Oh, dear Oh, if I had but one; Oh, dear Oh, if I had a sailor, With his tarry trousers on. 3 "Come sit down your hearty welcome, Wither you call again or no; Come sit down your hearty welcome, If my should be no." 4 "Madam, I have gold and silver; Madam, I have houses and land; Madam, I have men and maidens, And they all shall be at your command. 5 What care I for your gold and silver? What care I for your houses and land? What care I for your men and maidens, All I want a handsome young man." . (chorus) Oh, dear Oh, if I had a sailor, Oh, dear Oh, if I had but one; Oh, dear Oh, if I had a sailor, With his tarry trousers on. 7. Madam you talk much of beauty It is a flower that will soon decay; For the fairest flower that blooms in summer, When winter comes it fades away." (chorus) 8 "Don't you see yon lugger coming, With the long boat at the stern; It's him that's got my heart a-keeping, I wish he had my body too." (chorus) 9 "My two eyes are dim with weeping, Oh, dear O, what shall I do; It's him that's got my heart a-keeping, I wish he had my body too." Chorus (2x) * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 20 Aug 17 - 03:24 PM Hi, Another version with Tarry Trousers is taken from Sam Henry's Songs of the People. Most versions titled "Tarry Trousers/Trowsers" are a different song of a mother-daughter conversation about marrying a sailor. According to one online site (Contemplator): "Tarry trousers" refers to the sailor's practice of waterproofing their trousers with tar. This may be among the reasons sailors were referred to as "tars," a term used since 1676. Between 1857 and 1891 sailors also wore black 'tarpaulin' hats (boater-shaped with ribbon around the crown). The term "Jack Tar" has been in use since the 1780s. Tarry Trousers- from Sam Henry, published in North Ireland on Feb. 10, 1934 Yonder stands a pretty maiden, Who she is I do not know, I'll go court her for her beauty, Let her answer yes or no. 'Pretty maid, I've come to court you, If your favour I do gain And you make me hearty welcome, I will call this way again.' 'Sit you down, you're heart'ly welcome, Sit you down and chat a while, Sit you down, you're heart'ly welcome, Suppose you do not call again?' 'Pretty little maid, I've gold and riches, Pretty little maid, I've houses and lands, Pretty little maid, I've worldly treasures. And all will be at your command.' 'What do I care for your worldly treasures? What do I care for your houses and lands? What do I care for your gold and riches? All that I want is a nice young man.' 'Why do you dive so deep in beauty? It is a flower will soon decay, It's like the rose that blooms in summer When winter comes, it fades away.' 'My love wears the tarry trousers, My love wears the jacket blue, My love ploughs the deep blue ocean, So, young man, be off with you.' * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 22 Aug 17 - 03:23 PM Hi, "Spanish Lady," sung by Mrs. Longhill Dunbar of Crimond, Aberdeenshire also has a "tarry trousers" stanza. Longhill was born in 1855 then married John Dunbar-- her version is dated about 1908 and was collected by Greig, version A from Greig-Duncan Collection. 7 Some court maidens for their money, Bring to me their heart's delight, He that wears the tarry trousers Shines to me like diamonds bright. Anyone know Eddie Butcher's version (1966) of Tarry Trousers held at Ulster Folk & Transport Museum collection? Can't find it there? I've started writing the headnotes to "Madam" here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/8-madam-i-have-come-to-court-you-.aspx Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 23 Aug 17 - 12:05 PM Hi, Here's a Scottish composite version of "Spanish Lady" and "lady answered No" sung by Bell Robertson of New Pitsligo (b.1841) which may, through her mother and maternal grandmother of Strichen, date back to the 1700s or early 1800s. It was collected by Grieg about 1907 and is version I from Greig-Duncan Collection, vol. 4. 1. Walking down through London city, Between twelve and one at night, There I saw a Spanish lady Wash herself by candle light. CHORUS: She said Aye, no, no, no, She said Aye, no, no, no, She said Aye, no, no, no, Still the lady answered No. 2 Wi' a basin full of water And a towel in her hand. And a candle on the table, Like an angel she did stand. CHORUS 3 Madam, I am come to court you, If I could your favour gain. And gin ye mak me kindly welcome Maybe I come back again. CHORUS 4. My father he's a wealthy merchant He has lately gone from home He left me strict directions Never to say Aye to none. CHORUS 5. Saw ye ever a copper kettle, Marriet with a brazen pan, Saw ye ever a Spanish Lady, Would refuse an Englishman? CHORUS The Scottish versions of Spanish Lady have the opening stanzas of the bawdy 1776 song rewritten as found Bell's stanza 1 and 2. They are followed by stanzas of "Madam" and in Bell's version there is only one. The Spanish merchant stanza is standard in "Oh No John" and "No Sir," while the last stanza is found in "Galway City" and some other versions of Spanish Lady. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 25 Aug 17 - 09:01 PM Hi, This is an unusual version of "Madam": "I Admire a Black Eyed Man," vocal performance by Lena Bourne Fish at East Jaffrey (New Hampshire). Dated 08-26-1943. Recorded by Helen Flanders. Listen: https://archive.org/details/HHFBC_tapes_D20B [starts about 21:30] Corrections? Madam I have come a-courting And your favor I hope to gain, If you'll kindly entertain me, Maybe I will come again. CHORUS: Ladies go you hair up, Hair up, hair up, Ladies go you hair up, Prim and fine. Madam I am bold and handsome, I have money houses and land, If you'll be my wife, my darling, All of this is at your command. CHORUS I do not want your gold and silver, Nor your fortune, houses and land, Your fine features do not lure me For I admire a black-eyed man. CHORUS A black-eyed man I do admire, Raven locks I do adore, A black-eyed man I'll surely marry, whether he is rich or poor. CHORUS So your gold and silver tinkling All your fortune houses and land But I speaks of fiery whiskers, I will choose a black-eyed man. CHORUS Gold would buy me silks and satins, I could dress like a lady grand, But I prefer to this a [ ] With a charming black-eyed man. CHORUS: * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 25 Aug 17 - 09:46 PM Hi, There are several versions the "she answers No" chorus with are versions of Madam. This short version is one example. "Madam I Have Come A-Courting" - voice performance by Jonathan Moses at Orford (New Hampshire); recorded by Helen Flanders on 08-24-1951. Learned in North Haven, Maine. Listen, Track 01: https://archive.org/details/HHFBC_tapes_T07A Madam, I have come a-courting Your perfection for to win, If you'll kindly entertain me, Perhaps I may return again. CHORUS: No, no, no no no sir, All of her answers to me was No. Oh madam I have gold and silver, Madam I have houses and lands, Oh madam I have ships on anchor All to be at your command. CHORUS Don't want some[1] of your gold or silver Don't want some of your houses and lands, Don't want some of your ships on anchor All's I want's a handsome man. CHORUS A handsome man that I admire, A handsome man that I adore, A handsome man that I will have, Whether he is rich or poor. CHORUS 1. Sings: "I want some of" which makes no sense-- this stanza is from Moses 1933 recording with a different chorus. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 26 Aug 17 - 10:11 AM Hi, Here's another "she answered No" song made of primarily from stanzas of Madam: "Oh No, No Sir, No!" Collected from Mrs. Mary Brown by Bayard in 1929 in Greene County, Pennsylvania. 1. Yonder sits a lovelye creature, Who she is I do not know; I'll step up and court her favor, Let her answer Yes or No. CHORUS: Oh, no, no, sir, no! Always to answer the young men no. 2. Madam, I have come a-courting, And if your favor I can gain, And if you'll highly entertain me, Then perhaps I'll come again. CHORUS: 3. Madam, I have gold and silver, Madam, I have house and land; Madam, I have this world's pleasures, And all shall be at your command. CHORUS: 4. What care I for gold and silver, What care I for house and land? What care I for this world's pleasures? All I want is a handsome man. CHORUS: 5. My father was a Spanish merchant, Where he is I do not know; Before he left me, he made me promise To always answer the young men No. CHORUS: 6. Madam, if you were to live single, Say, perhaps, one year or two, Madam, would you be offended If I should offer my hand to you? CHORUS (emphatically) 7. As we sit together talking, The north wind began to blow; I saw the rising sun approaching And I said, "Dear madam, I must go." CHORUS: * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 26 Aug 17 - 07:32 PM Hi, I'm starting to organize "Madam." I've created the following appendices for versions that are related but lacking the core stanzas or that are related but have different text: 8A. "Oh No, John," or, "No Sir" 8B. The Courting Case 8C. On a Mountain Stands a Lady (children's game songs/skipping songs) 8D. The Quaker's Courtship, or, Quaker's Wooing 8E. The Spanish Lady II, III, IV 8F. Come My Little Roving Sailor (Roving Sailor) Here's what I have so far for "Madam"- the requirement is the version must have approximately 50% or more of the core stanzas of Madam (all the versions have not been added yet): 8. Madam, I Have Come to Court You (Madam, I Am Come to Court You); Roud 542 (Madam, I have Gold and Silver; The Lovely Creature; Yonder Stands a Lovely Creature; Spanish Lady I; Ripe is the Apple Love; Twenty-Eighteen; Ripest Apple;) A. Madam I Am/Have Come to Court You ("Yonder sits/stands a Lovely Creature," "Twenty-Eighteen," "Ripe is the Apple Love," "Ripest Apple" ) a. "The Lovely Creature" ("Yonder sits a Lovely Creature"), broadside printed at Aldermary Churchyard by one of the Dicey/Marshall dynasty and is probably about 1760. It comes from British Library 11621 e 6, items 1 to 26. b. "A New Song" ("Yonder Sits a Handsome Creature") broadside dated c. 1776. From British Library, item 1346 m 7, Broadsides 1 to 42, this being item 29, 3 songs of which this is the third. c. "What care I for your golden treasures?" a single stanza learned c.1780 by John Randolph of Virginia. Taken from a letter written by John Randolph in 1822. Published in "John Randolph of Roanoke, 1773-1833: A Biography. . ." by William Cabell Bruce- 1922. d. "Yonder Stands a Handsome Lady" was collected from the journal of the Diana, a ship harbored in New York under Captain Hay in 1819. The text is given in Hungtington's "Songs the Whalemen Sang." e. "Madam I Am Come to Court You," from Halliwell's 1846 book, "The Nursery Rhymes of England, obtained principally from oral tradition." f. "There She Stands, a Lovely Creature" from New York Games and songs of American children, collected and compared by W.W. Newell by American children, 1883. g. "The Disdainful Lady" Sung by Harriet Dowley, of Edgmond, who knew no title to it. From Shropshire Folk-lore, a Sheaf of Gleanings - Part 2, page 552, by Charlotte Sophia Burne, Georgina Frederica Jackson, 1885. h. "In Yonder Grove," Taken down from George Cole, quarryman, aged 76, Rundlestone, Dartmoor, 1890. Baring-Gould Ms. Ref. PC 1. 194. i. "Twenty, Eighteen" - Sung by a carpenter at Besthorpe, Norfolk, to the Rev. J. T. Howard, and collected by John Graham for The Musical Herald, September, 1891. Reprinted in English County Songs edited by Lucy Etheldred Broadwood and John Alexander Fuller-Maitland, 1908. j. "Here she stands, a lovely creature," sung by Washington children. From Lippincott's Monthly Magazine, Volume 37, 1886; " Song Games and Myth Dramas at Washington," by W. H. Babcock. k. "The (Lincolnshire) Handsome Woman" from an unknown singer in Lincolnshire reported as a footnote to another song by Ebsworth, Roxburghe, 1899. It was taken orally by Colonel F. G. Baylay, R.A.(Royal Artillery; Woolwich), and communicated to the Editor by his friend Hubert Roberts, of Boston. l. "Madam I have gold and silver," Michigan. "Quite unexpectedly the bride's mother sang to me two verses of a courting song her mother had used to sing to her, about 1902, in the lumber woods." From Hoosier Folklore - Volumes 5-6 - Page 13, 1946. l. "Madam I am Come For to Court You," sung by William Smith of Twyford, Hampshire in June, 1905. Collected by G.B. Gardiner; George Gardiner Manuscript Collection (GG/1/2/62) m. "Madam, Madam, I Come a Courting," sung by Mrs. Fortey of Walton Dorset in May 1906; Henry Hammond Manuscript Collection (HAM/3/16/10). n. "Madam I am Come a-Courting," sung by John Greening of Cuckolds' Corner, North Bridport, Dorset in May 1906. Collector: H.E.D. Hammond, Henry Hammond Manuscript Collection (HAM/3/17/18) o. "Madam, Madam, I Come a-Courting" sung by Mrs. Elizabeth Simms, Uploders, Dorset in May 1906. Henry Hammond Manuscript Collection (HAM/3/19/5) p. "Ripest Apples," sung by William Davis of Porlock Weir, Somerset on 7 September 1906. Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/9/1125). q. "Yonder Stands a Lovely Creature"-- sung by Mrs. Cranstone of Billingshurst, Sussex about 1907, collected and transcribed by George Butterworth Manuscript Collection (GB/4/23). r. "A Spanish Lady." A Cornwall informant quotes (Dec. 11, 1909) a version formerly heard at Colborne, Ont., which he supposes to be Irish. From Journal of American Folklore, Volume 31, 1917; "Canadian Folk-Lore from Ontario" by F.W. Waugh. s. "Ripe is the Apple Love" collected from a Hampshire gypsy by Alice Gillington in her book of gypsy songs titled, "Songs of the Open Road," which was published 1911. t. "Madam I have Gold and Silver," communicated in 1911 by G. C. Broadhead of Columbia, Missouri was published in Belden's "Ballads & Songs" pp. 506-507. u. "Madam, I have come to court ye" sung by S. C. of Boston, Mass., a native of County Tyrone, Ireland was published with music in the article "Irish Folk-Song" by Phillips Barry in Journal of American Folklore, Volume 24, page 342. v. "Spanish Lady." Communicated by Miss Violet Noland, Davis, Tucker County, 1916; obtained from Mr. John Raese, who heard it sung when he was a boy. From Cox; "Folk songs of the South," 1925. w. "March Away," sung by David Sawyer of Ogbourne St. Andrew in County Wiltshire published Wilts and Gloucestershire Standard, 22nd January, 1916, p 2, Part 15, No. 2. Collected by Alfred Williams. x. "Yonder sits a pretty little creature" sung by Charles Tanner in County Oxfordshire published Wilts and Gloucestershire Standard, 22nd January, 1916, p 2, Part 15, No. 3. Collected by Alfred Williams. y. "Madam, I Have Gold and Silver," c. 1919. From Henry "Dutch" Gerlach who taught it before he died, during the World War I influenza epidemic, to Mr. Siemsen. 1963 Folkways Records "New York State Songs and Ballads." z. "Kind Miss" sung by Ann Riddell Anderson of the University of Kentucky, from The American Songbag- Carl Sandburg 1927. aa. "Yonder Hill There Is a Widow" sung by Mrs. Alma Kidder of Townshend, Vermont on August 23, 1930 from Vermont Folk-Songs and Ballads by Flanders, Brown, pp. 154-155. bb."The Spanish Maiden," sung in 1931 by Mr. Clarence C. Chickering, Belding.Ballads & Songs of Southern Michigan by Emelyn-Elizabeth Gardner and Geraldine Jencks Chickering, 1939. cc. "Spanish Lady" sung by Mrs. S. T. Topper, Ashland, Ohio, 1939; from Ballads and Songs from Ohio by Mary Olive Eddy, p. 222. dd. "I Admire a Black-Eyed Man," vocal performance by Lena Bourne Fish at East Jaffrey (New Hampshire). Dated 08-26-1943. Recorded by Helen Flanders. ee. "Madam, Madam, You Came Courting" sung by William Gilkie, Sambro, NS, September, 1950; from Maritime Folk Songs by Flanders. B. "Spanish Lady I" (Galway City also Ettrick Lady) first two stanzas rewritten from "SONG LXXXIII" in "The Frisky Songster," 1776 edition. Also titled "The Ride in London" in "The Merry Muses: A Choice Collection of Favourite Songs Gathered by Robert Burns" 1827. Two Irish arrangements without stanzas of "Madam" using the early text rewritten are Joseph Campbell's poem "Spanish Lady" c. 1915 and Herbert Hughes musical arrangement "Spanish Lady," 1930. See appendix 8E for these versions. Versions with "Madam" stanzas text date to later half of the 1800s in Greig-Duncan collection. a. "As I Walked Up Through London City," sung by Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (1841-1910) of Glasgow, sister of Rev. Duncan about 1906; collected Duncan, version B from Greig-Duncan Collection. b. "Edinburgh City," sung by William Wallace of Leochel-Cushnie collected by Greig about 1907, version D from Greig-Duncan Collection 4. c. "London City," sung by John Johnstone of New Deer collected by Greig about 1907 (As I went up thro' London City) Greig-Duncan Collection 4 pp.66-71 (version E). Mistitled, with music and the text for Grieg version F. d. "Spanish Lady." sung by Belle Robertson of New Pitsligo (b.1841), got her songs from her mother and maternal grandmother. This is also variant of "she answered No." Collected Grieg about 1907, version I from Greig-Duncan Collection 4. e. "Spanish Lady," sung by Mrs. Longhill Dunbar of Crimond, Aberdeenshire about 1908; b. 1855 married John Dunbar collected by Greig, version A from Greig-Duncan Collection 4. f. "Dublin City"- sung by Miss Georgina Reid of Collyford, New Deer, married name Mrs Ironside of Tarriff ; collected by Greig about 1908; version F from Greig-Duncan Collection 4. g. "Spanish Lady," sung by Mary Cruickshank of Aberdeenshire; collected by Greig about 1908, published in 1910 in Greig's weekly folk song column. version C from Greig-Duncan Collection 4. h. "Twenty-Eighteen." Sung by Fred Yeldam, July 12th, 1911, and on Oct. 5th, 1911 by Mrs. Hollingsworth, Thaxted. Noted by Clive Carey. From Five English Folk Songs taken from Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 1, No. 3 (Dec., 1934), pp. 130-137. i. "Oh, Dear Oh (Spanish Lady)." Sung by Ethel Findlater of Orkney. Learned about 1914 from her cousin Bella who sang a chorus after every two verses, though Ethel thinks even that is too often. From two recordings at Collection - School of Scottish Studies, 1969. C. "She answered No" songs; versions with stanzas primarily of "Madam" with the "No" chorus. a. "No Sir, No" (Yonder is a comely flower) c. 1919 from "Kentucky Mountain Songs" by Wyman and Brockway. b. "Oh No, No Sir, No" sung by Mrs. Mary Brown of Greene County, PA. Collected by Bayard in 1929; from Pennsylvania Songs and Legends, Korson. c. "Madam I Have Come A-Courting" vocal performance by Jonathan Moses at Orford (New Hampshire); recorded by Helen Flanders on 08-24-1951. Learned in North Haven, Maine. D. "Roving Sailor." ("Come my little roving sailor"). The opening stanza is Roving Sailor, a play-party, fiddle tune; the rest is Madam. a. "Come my little Roving Sailor," sung by Mrs I.T. (Lucy) Cannady at Endicott, Virginia on August 22nd. 1918. From Sharp's "English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians" 1932 edition, edited Karpeles. Sharp A b. "Roving Sailor." Sung by Mr. Jacob Sowder at Callaway, Franklin Co., Va., August 14th 1918. From Sharp's "English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians" 1932 edition, edited Karpeles. Sharp C. E. Composite songs, "Vandy, Vandy" and all. a. "Seven Long Years." c. 1897. Reported by Mrs. R. D. Blacknall of Durham, with the note: "Sung by a Negro servant, Maria McCauley, presumably ex-slave of the Chapel Hill McCauleys. Heard forty-five years ago." Brown Collection volume 3, 1952. b1. "O Hatty Bell." Sung by Mrs. Godfrey of Marion, NC on September 3, 1918 from Sharp MS b2 "Hattie Bell" Greer MS http://omeka.library.appstate.edu/items/show/19554; no date c. 1918. c1. "Yankee Boys." Recorded from Able Shepherd, Bryson City, N. C about 1923. From: Some Songs and Ballads from Tennessee and North Carolina by Isabel Gordon Carter; The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 46, No. 179 (Jan.- Mar., 1933), pp. 22-50. c2. "All of her answers to me were No," recording by Peggy Seeger, Folk Songs of Courting & complaint; Folkways 1955. d. "Annie Girl." From Mrs. G. V. Easley of Mississippi, who says that it was one of the most popular songs in her girlhood in Calhoun County. This is a compound of three songs, "The Drowsy Sleeper," "The Spanish Lady" ("No, Sir, No"), and "The Sailor's Return" ("The Broken Token"). From Hudson, Ballads and Songs from Mississippi, JAFL 1926. e. "Kind Miss" sung by Ann Riddell Anderson of the University of Kentucky, from The American Songbag- Carl Sandburg 1927. Composite of Drowsy Sleep and Madam. f. "Vandy Vandy" collected by Manly Wade Wellman in Moore County, North Carolina, published in 1953; arranged Bob Coltman. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 31 Aug 17 - 09:31 PM Hi, Here's a version of Spanish Lady IV (name is used only) from: Wehman's Universal Songster Volume 39. Published in NY about 1893. The last stanza is from "The Johnson Boys." THE SPANISH LADY. Yonder sits a Spanish lady, Who she is I do not know; I'll go court her for her beauty, Let her answer be yea or no. Chorus. Nedy um a do to dod dum da, Nedy um a do to du dum da. Madam, I have come a-courting, Though your name I do not know; I will court you for your beauty, Let your answer be yes or no.- Chorus. Sir, if you have come a-courting Some kind pleasure for to win, I will kindly entertain you If you will never come again.- Chorus. Madam, I have gold and silver, Madam, I have house and land; Madam, I have a world of treasure, All to be at your command.- Chorus. What care I for your gold and silver, What care I for your house and land; What care I for your world of treasure, All I want is a handsome man.- Chorus. Blue is a pretty color When it gets a second dip, Young men when they go a-courting Very often get the slip.- Chorus. Ripest apples soonest rotten, Hottest love soonest cold; Young men's vows are soon forgotten, Pray, pretty maids, don't be so bold.- Chorus Iowa boys are the boys of honor, To court pretty maids they're not afraid. Hug them, kiss them, call them honey; That's the way, boys; don't be afraid. -Chorus. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 02 Sep 17 - 10:25 AM Hi, In May of 1906 H.E. Hammond collected at least four versions in Dorset. This version (Henry Hammond Manuscript Collection; HAM/3/19/5) starts with the a first line resembling Broken Token/Sweetheart in the Army/Fair Maid in the Garden. The last stanza (False Young Man) is found in the Roxburghe version of Madam titled "The Handsom' Woman." See also "As I Walkèd Forth In The Pride Of The Season" where the maid wears the green willow. Cf. John Greening version. "A Pretty Maiden" sung by Mrs. Elizabeth Simms of Uploders, Dorset in May, 1906. Collected by Henry Hammond. A pretty fair maid walking in her garden, But her name I do not know, I'll go and court her for her beauty, Let her answer be "Yes" or No." Madam, Madam, I'm come a-courting, That my favor I may gain, Sit you down you're kindly welcome, Then perhaps you may call again. "Madam I have gold and silver, Madam I have house and land Madam I have a world of pleasure, I leave it all at your command." Don't tell me of your gold and treasure, Don't tell me of your house and land Don't tell me of your world of pleasure, All I want is a handsome man. Handsome men are out of fashion, Maiden's beauties soon decay. You pick a flower of a summer's morning, Before the evening it will fade away. First comes the oxslip and then the cruel[1], Then the pink and then the may, Then comes a new love, then comes a truelove And so we pass our time away. Once I lay on a young man's pillow, Which I thought it was my own, Now I do so lie under the willow, All for the sake of a false young man. 1. a smaller form of cowslip * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 04 Sep 17 - 01:03 PM Hi, Here's a nice version from Florida. "Yonder Sits a Humble Creature." Sung by Mrs. Matilda Keene of Newberry, Fla., recorded by Alton C. Morris, 1937. (AFS979B2) Listen: https://www.floridamemory.com/audio/folk.php Yonder sits a humble creature, Lily-white brow as white as snow, I'll go court her for her beauty, Make her answer Yes or No. CHORUS: La la, la la la la, La la, la la la. "Madam I will court you for your beauty, If you'll only entertain, Please sit down and I'll treat you handsome If you never come again. CHORUS Madam I have gold and silver, Madam I have house and land, Madam I have a world of pleasure You may have at your command. CHORUS What cares I for your gold and silver? What cares I for you house and land? Nothing cares I for your world of pleasure, All's I want is a handsome man. CHORUS Madam why do you brag on beauty? Beauty's a flower that will decay, Pull a red rose in the morning, By the noon it will fade away. CHORUS The ripest apple is the soonest rotten, The warmest love['s] the soonest cold, Young man's dreams are so uncertain, Pray young miss, don't you be so bold. CHORUS * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 05 Sep 17 - 08:50 PM Here are two versions from Canada from Fowke's informants: The first is from Fowke, "Ring Around the Moon" pp. 122-123. The last stanza is from The Courting Case. Madam I Have Come A-Courting- sung by Mrs. Arlington Fraser of Lancaster, Ontario, 1961. Collected by Edith Fowke. 1. Madam, I have come a-courting, If your favor I might gain, If you'll freely entertain me Oh, perhaps I'll call again. CHORUS: Da-di-dum, a-derry, a-derry, a-derry, Da-di-dum a-derry, a-derry, a-day, 2. Blue is a handsome colour, Till it gets a second dip, Like young men when they go a-courting Very often make a slip. CHORUS: Madam, I have gold and silver, Madam, I have houses and land; Madam, I have a worldly treasure, All to be at your command. CHORUS: What care I for your gold or silver? What care I for your house and land? What care I for your worldly treasure? All I want is a handsome young man. CHORUS: The biggest apple soon grow rotten, The hottest love soon grows cold; Young men's words are soon forgotten, Pretty fair maid, don't speak so bold. CHORUS: A handsome man I do admire A handsome man I do adore A handsome man I mean to marry Be him rich or be him poor. CHORUS: Madam you are very saucy Madam you are hard to please Madam you are very saucy-- I hope to the Lord that you will freeze. CHORUS: * * * * The 2nd is from A Family Heritage: The Story and Songs of LaRena Clark by Edith Fowke, Jay Rahn, LaRena LeBarr Clark. There are only two secondary stanzas of Madam in this unusual version. Rattle on the Stovepipe- sung by LaRena Clark (ON) c.1960 Fowke CHORUS 1: Rattle on the stovepipe, bootjack, Jew's harp Rattle on the stovepipe, bootjack, Joe! Rattle on the stovepipe, bootjack, Jew's harp, Rattle on the stovepipe, bootjack, Joe! 1. She was kissing; I was wishing Didn't know what she was about, Robbed me of my gold and silver, Then she kicked me threw me out. CHORUS 2: Rattle on the stovepipe, bootjack, Jew's harp Rattle on the stovepipe, bootjack, Joe! 2. Blue is a pretty colour, Before it get a second dip, Young boys when they go a-courting Very often get the slip. CHORUS 2: Rattle on the stovepipe, bootjack, Jew's harp Rattle on the stovepipe, bootjack, Joe! 3. Ripest apples soon grow rotten, Hottest love will soon grow cold. Pretty maids are soon forgotten; I pray young men don't be so bold. CHORUS 2: Rattle on the stovepipe, bootjack, Jew's harp Rattle on the stovepipe, bootjack, Joe! 4. Deepest water running swiftly Birds a-flying through the air, Kiss the young men, go a courting, Kind sir, I don't have a care Chorus 1 * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 06 Sep 17 - 06:49 PM Hi, This is an archaic version from Canada from Carrie Grover's "Heritage of Songs," p.18 (Grover a singer and fiddler was born in 1879 in Black River, Nova Scotia moved to Maine when she was young and later in life to Pennsylvania). Julie Mainstone who sent this to me writes: Both of these songs however, appear in the "Mother's Songs" section so they were either handed down through her Scotch grandparents/great-grandparents, or learned within the small Nova Scotian community where Grover was raised in the late 1800s. "There She Stands" was learned by Grover's mother, Eliza Spinney, (born 1840) when she herself was a young girl living in the same area where Carrie (Grover) was born/raised. There she stands a lovely creature- as sung by Mrs. Carrie Grover, learned from her mother c. 1887. There she stands a lovely creature Who she is I do not know I will court her for her beauty she can only answer, "no". Madam, I have gold and silver, Madam, I have houses and land. Madam, I have ships on the ocean. All will be at your command. What care I for gold and silver? What care I for houses and land? What care I for ships on the ocean? All I want is a handsome man. Handsome man is out of the question, Handsome man you can not find. Handsome man is out of the question, Can not be at your command. Madam, do not stand on beauty; Youth and beauty fade away Like a rose that blooms in the morning And in the evening dies away. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 13 Sep 17 - 04:23 PM Hi, Made it through Hurricane Irma and my power is on!! There are some good things about living in South Florida but hurricanes aren't one of them. I've finished for now 8. Madam, I Have Come to Court You. Below are the list of versions that are made up primarily of 50% of stanzas of Madam. Here is a rough draft of the headnotes: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/8-madam-i-have-come-to-court-you-.aspx I'll be working on Appendices next after I finish the US/Canada headnotes and the British headnotes. Here is a list of the texts, I've left off some single stanzas texts but they are on the website: 8. Madam, I Have Come to Court You (Madam, I Am Come to Court You); Roud 542 (Madam, I have Gold and Silver; The Lovely Creature; Yonder Stands a Lovely Creature; Spanish Lady I; Ripe is the Apple Love; Twenty-Eighteen; Ripest Apple; The Disdainful Lady; March Away; I Admire a Black-Eyed Man; As I Walked Up Through London City; Ower Yon Hill There Lives a Lassie; Galway City; Ettrick City; Ower Yon Hill There Lives a Lassie) A. Madam I Am/Have Come to Court You ("Yonder sits/stands a Lovely Creature," "Twenty-Eighteen," "Ripe is the Apple Love," "Rioest Apple" "Spanish Lady IV") a. "The Lovely Creature" ("Yonder sits a Lovely Creature"), broadside printed at Aldermary Churchyard by one of the Dicey/Marshall dynasty and is probably about 1760. It comes from British Library 11621 e 6, items 1 to 26. b. "A New Song" ("Yonder Sits a Handsome Creature") broadside dated c. 1776. From British Library, item 1346 m 7, Broadsides 1 to 42, this being item 29, 3 songs of which this is the third. c. "What care I for your golden treasures?" a single stanza learned c.1780 by John Randolph of Virginia. Taken from a letter written by John Randolph in 1822. Published in "John Randolph of Roanoke, 1773-1833: A Biography. . ." by William Cabell Bruce- 1922. d. "Yonder Stands a Handsome Lady" was collected from the journal of the Diana, a ship harbored in New York under Captain Hay in 1819. The text is given in Hungtington's "Songs the Whalemen Sang." e. "Madam I Am Come to Court You," from Halliwell's 1846 book, "The Nursery Rhymes of England, obtained principally from oral tradition." f. "Twenty, Eighteen" - Sung by a carpenter at Besthorpe, Norfolk, to the Rev. J. T. Howard who learned in in 1871, and it was collected by John Graham for The Musical Herald, September, 1891. Reprinted in English County Songs edited by Lucy Etheldred Broadwood and John Alexander Fuller-Maitland, 1908. g. "There She Stands, a Lovely Creature" from New York Games and songs of American children, collected and compared by W.W. Newell by American children, 1883. h. "The Disdainful Lady" Sung by Harriet Dowley, of Edgmond, who knew no title to it. From Shropshire Folk-lore, a Sheaf of Gleanings - Part 2, page 552, by Charlotte Sophia Burne, Georgina Frederica Jackson, 1885. i. "In Yonder Grove," Taken down from George Cole, quarryman, aged 76, Rundlestone, Dartmoor, 1890. Baring-Gould Ms. Ref. PC 1. 194. j. "Here she stands, a lovely creature," sung by Washington children. From Lippincott's Monthly Magazine, Volume 37, 1886; " Song Games and Myth Dramas at Washington," by W. H. Babcock. k. "There she stands a lovely creature-," sung by Mrs. Carrie Grover, learned c. 1887 from her mother Eliza Spinney, (born 1840) when she herself was a young girl living in Black River, Nova Scotia. From Carrie Grover's "Heritage of Songs," p.18. l. "The Spanish Lady" Wehman Universal Songster, Volume 39 published in New York circa 1893. m. "The (Lincolnshire) Handsome Woman" from an unknown singer in Lincolnshire reported as a footnote to another song by Ebsworth, Roxburghe, 1899. It was taken orally by Colonel F. G. Baylay, R.A.(Royal Artillery; Woolwich), and communicated to the Editor by his friend Hubert Roberts, of Boston. n. "Madam I have gold and silver," Michigan. "Quite unexpectedly the bride's mother sang to me two verses of a courting song her mother had used to sing to her, about 1902, in the lumber woods." From Hoosier Folklore - Volumes 5-6 - Page 13, 1946. o. "Madam I am Come For to Court You," sung by William Smith of Twyford, Hampshire in June, 1905. Collected by G.B. Gardiner; George Gardiner Manuscript Collection (GG/1/2/62) p. "Madam, Madam, I Come a Courting," sung by Mrs. Fortey of Walton Dorset in May 1906; Henry Hammond Manuscript Collection (HAM/3/16/10). q. "Madam I am Come a-Courting," sung by John Greening of Cuckolds' Corner, North Bridport, Dorset in May 1906. Collector: H.E.D. Hammond, Henry Hammond Manuscript Collection (HAM/3/17/18) r. "Madam, Madam, I Come a-Courting" sung by Mrs. Elizabeth Simms, Uploders, Dorset in May 1906. Henry Hammond Manuscript Collection (HAM/3/19/5) s. "Ripest Apples," sung by William Davis of Porlock Weir, Somerset on 7 September 1906. Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/9/1125). t. "Yonder Stands a Lovely Creature"-- sung by Mrs. Cranstone of Billingshurst, Sussex about 1907, collected and transcribed by George Butterworth Manuscript Collection (GB/4/23). u. "Yonder Sits a Spanish Lady," sung by William Shepherd of Winchcombe, Gloucestershire on 8 April, 1909. My title. From Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/9/2015). v. "A Spanish Lady." A Cornwall informant quotes (Dec. 11, 1909) a version formerly heard at Colborne, Ont., which he supposes to be Irish. From Journal of American Folklore, Volume 31, 1917; "Canadian Folk-Lore from Ontario" by F.W. Waugh. w. "Ripe is the Apple Love" collected from a Hampshire gypsy by Alice Gillington in her book of gypsy songs titled, "Songs of the Open Road," which was published 1911. x. "Madam I have Gold and Silver," communicated in 1911 by G. C. Broadhead of Columbia, Missouri was published in Belden's "Ballads & Songs" pp. 506-507. y. "Madam, I have come to court ye" sung by S. C. of Boston, Mass., a native of County Tyrone, Ireland was published with music in the 1912 article "Irish Folk-Song" by Phillips Barry in Journal of American Folklore, Volume 24, page 342. z. "Madam I have come to court you" Suffolk version (Colchester) sent to Sharp by Miss Harma, May 1914, incorrectly titled Keys of Heaven. From: Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/10/2939). aa. "Spanish Lady." Communicated by Miss Violet Noland, Davis, Tucker County, 1916; obtained from Mr. John Raese, who heard it sung when he was a boy. From Cox; "Folk songs of the South," 1925. bb. "March Away," sung by David Sawyer of Ogbourne St. Andrew in County Wiltshire published Wilts and Gloucestershire Standard, 22nd January, 1916, p 2, Part 15, No. 2. Collected by Alfred Williams. cc. "Yonder sits a pretty little creature" sung by Charles Tanner in County Oxfordshire published Wilts and Gloucestershire Standard, 22nd January, 1916, p 2, Part 15, No. 3. Collected by Alfred Williams. dd. "Madam, I Have Gold and Silver," c. 1919. From Henry "Dutch" Gerlach who taught it before he died, during the World War I influenza epidemic, to Mr. Siemsen. 1963 Folkways Records "New York State Songs and Ballads." ee. "Kind Miss" sung by Ann Riddell Anderson of the University of Kentucky, from The American Songbag- Carl Sandburg 1927. This is a composite and is listed under composites. ff. "Yonder Hill There Is a Widow," sung by Mrs. Alma Kidder of Townshend, Vermont on August 23, 1930 from Vermont Folk-Songs and Ballads by Flanders, Brown, pp. 154-155. gg."The Spanish Maiden," sung in 1931 by Mr. Clarence C. Chickering of Belding, Michigan. From: Ballads & Songs of Southern Michigan by Emelyn-Elizabeth Gardner and Geraldine Jencks Chickering, 1939. hh. "Yonder Comes a Heavenly Creature" sung by O. B. Campbell of Medford, Grant County, Oklahoma, 1934. he University Studies - Volumes 32-37 - pages 356-77; 1934. Also as "Madam I Have Gold and Silver" in the Max Hunter Collection Cat. #1177 (MFH #470) as sung by O.B. Campbell, Vinita, Oklahoma on August 9, 1971. ii. "Yonder Sits a Humble Creature." Sung by Mrs. Matilda Keene of Newberry, Fla., recorded by Alton C. Morris, 1937. (AFS979B2) From WPA field recordings in Alachua County (1936-1937 recording expedition) (S 1576, reel T86-220) jj. "Spanish Lady" sung by Mrs. S. T. Topper, Ashland, Ohio, 1939; from Ballads and Songs from Ohio by Mary Olive Eddy, p. 222. kk. "I Admire a Black-Eyed Man," vocal performance by Lena Bourne Fish at East Jaffrey (New Hampshire). Dated 08-26-1943. Recorded by Helen Flanders. ll. "I Come You a-Courting" sung by Matt Linehan of Kerry about 1948 collected by Seamus Ennis. My date, title. Text from Mainly Norfolk. mm. "Madam, Madam, You Came Courting" sung by William Gilkie, Sambro, NS, September, 1950; from Maritime Folk Songs by Flanders. nn. "Ower Yon Hill There Lives a Lassie," sung by Belle Stewart (1906-1997) of Blairgowrie , Perthsire in 1955. Learned from her older brother, who got it from an uncle in Perth. From: Recording Collection at School of Scottish Studies; Track ID - 60117; Original Tape ID - SA1955.036. oo. "Twenty, Eighteen," as sung by George Townsend, Lewes, Sussex, in 1960; recorded by Brian Matthews. From: Musical Traditions MT CD 304: Come Hand to me the Glass. pp. "Rattle on the Stovepipe," sung by LaRena Clark of Ontario c.1960; collected by Edith Fowke. From: A Family Heritage: The Story and Songs of LaRena Clark by Edith Fowke, Jay Rahn, LaRena LeBarr Clark. qq. "Madam, I Have Come A-Courting," sung by Mrs. Arlington Fraser of Lancaster, Ontario, 1961. Collected by Edith Fowke. From Fowke's "Ring Around the Moon" pp. 122-123. rr. "Ripest Apples," sung by Joe Jones of St Mary Cray, Kent between 1972-75. Recorded by Mike Yates. From: Musical Traditions anthology of Gypsy songs and music from South-East England, Here's Luck to a Man, 2003. ss. "Ripest Apples" sung by Joe Cooper of Biggin Hill, Kent collected by Stephen Sedley in 1966 and Mike Yates in 1970. From: English Dance and Song - Volumes 36-37 - Page 15, 1974 by Yates. Also Stephen Sedley Sound Collection (Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, London) 17 CDA Tape Collection. tt. "Ripest Apples," as recorded by Mabs Hall of Billingshurst, Sussex in 1987. From: VT107 Ripest Apples and on VT115CD, As I went down to Horsham. Recorded by Mike Yates. B. "Spanish Lady" ("Spanish Lady I" also "Galway City" and "Ettrick Lady") first two stanzas rewritten from "SONG LXXXIII" in "The Frisky Songster," 1776 edition. Also titled "The Ride in London" in "The Merry Muses: A Choice Collection of Favourite Songs Gathered by Robert Burns" 1827. Two Irish arrangements without stanzas of "Madam" using the early text rewritten are Joseph Campbell's poem "Spanish Lady" c. 1915 (Spanish Lady II) and Herbert Hughes musical arrangement "Spanish Lady," 1930 (Spanish Lady V). See appendix 8E for these versions. Versions with "Madam" stanzas text date to later half of the 1800s in Greig-Duncan collection. a. "As I Walked Up Through London City," sung by Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (1841-1910) of Glasgow, sister of Rev. Duncan about 1906; collected Duncan, version B from Greig-Duncan Collection. b. "Edinburgh City," sung by William Wallace of Leochel-Cushnie collected by Greig about 1907, version D from Greig-Duncan Collection 4. c. "London City," sung by John Johnstone of New Deer collected by Greig about 1907 (As I went up thro' London City) Greig-Duncan Collection 4 pp.66-71, version E. Mistitled, with music for version F. d. "Spanish Lady." sung by Belle Robertson of New Pitsligo (b.1841), got her songs from her mother and maternal grandmother. This is also variant of "she answered No." Collected Grieg about 1907, version I from Greig-Duncan Collection 4. e. "Spanish Lady," sung by Mrs. Longhill Dunbar of Crimond, Aberdeenshire about 1908; b. 1855 married John Dunbar collected by Greig, version A from Greig-Duncan Collection 4. f. "Dublin City"- sung by Miss Georgina Reid of Collyford, New Deer, married name Mrs Ironside of Tarriff ; collected by Greig about 1908; version F from Greig-Duncan Collection 4. g. "Spanish Lady," sung by Mary Cruickshank of Aberdeenshire; collected by Greig about 1908, published in 1910 in Greig's weekly folk song column. version C from Greig-Duncan Collection 4. h. "Twenty-Eighteen." Sung by Fred Yeldam, July 12th, 1911, and on Oct. 5th, 1911 by Mrs. Hollingsworth, Thaxted. Noted by Clive Carey. From Five English Folk Songs taken from Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 1, No. 3 (Dec., 1934), pp. 130-137. i. "Oh, Dear Oh (Spanish Lady)." Sung by Ethel Findlater of Orkney. Learned about 1914 from her cousin Bella who sang a chorus after every two verses, though Ethel thinks even that is too often. From two recordings at Collection - School of Scottish Studies, 1969. j. "Galway City" as sung by Clancy Brothers. Recorded in 1965 and released 1966 on their "Isn't It Grand Boys" album. Tommy Makem got this from Sean O'Boyle of Armahg. k. "Ettrick Lady," sung by The Corries from the Album: Live from Scotland Volume 2; 1975. Based on, or similar to, "Galway City" from Sean O'Boyle. C. "She answered No" songs; versions with stanzas primarily of "Madam" with the "No" chorus. a. "No Sir, No" (Yonder is a comely flower) c. 1919 from "Kentucky Mountain Songs" by Wyman and Brockway. b. "Oh No, No Sir, No" sung by Mrs. Mary Brown of Greene County, PA. Collected by Bayard in 1929; from Pennsylvania Songs and Legends, Korson. c. "Yonder Comes a Heavenly Creature" sung by O.B. Campbvell Medford, OK 1934 d. "Madam I Have Come A-Courting" vocal performance by Jonathan Moses at Orford (New Hampshire); recorded by Helen Flanders on 08-24-1951. Learned in North Haven, Maine. e1. Uh, uh No- sung by Lannis Sutton of Doxy Oklahoma, collected by Sam Esking about 1949. From Lomax, Folk-Songs of North America, 1960. e2. "All of her answers to me were No," recording by Peggy Seeger, Folk Songs of Courting & complaint; Folkways 1955. D. Composite songs, "Vandy, Vandy" and all. a. "Seven Long Years." c. 1897. Reported by Mrs. R. D. Blacknall of Durham, with the note: "Sung by a Negro servant, Maria McCauley, presumably ex-slave of the Chapel Hill McCauleys. Heard forty-five years ago." Brown Collection volume 3, 1952. b1. "O Hatty Bell." Sung by Mrs. Godfrey of Marion, NC on September 3, 1918 from Sharp MS b2 "Hattie Bell" Greer MS http://omeka.library.appstate.edu/items/show/19554; no date c. 1918. c. "Yonder Stands a Handsome Creature," sung by Jake Sowder of Callaway, Virginia on August 14, 1918. My title. Composite from Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/9/3136). d. "Yankee Boys." Recorded from Able Shepherd, Bryson City, N. C about 1923. From: Some Songs and Ballads from Tennessee and North Carolina by Isabel Gordon Carter; The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 46, No. 179 (Jan.- Mar., 1933), pp. 22-50. e. "Annie Girl." From Mrs. G. V. Easley of Mississippi, who says that it was one of the most popular songs in her girlhood in Calhoun County. This is a compound of three songs, "The Drowsy Sleeper," "The Spanish Lady" ("No, Sir, No"), and "The Sailor's Return" ("The Broken Token"). From Hudson, Ballads and Songs from Mississippi, JAFL 1926. f. "Kind Miss" sung by Ann Riddell Anderson of the University of Kentucky, from The American Songbag- Carl Sandburg 1927. Composite of Drowsy Sleep and Madam. g. "Vandy Vandy" collected by Manly Wade Wellman c. 1946 in Moore County, North Carolina, published in 1953; arranged Bob Coltman. E. English Traditional- Variants from Tristan da Cunha a. "Yonder stands a handsome creature," sung by Henry Green of Tristan da Cunha about 1938. From: Munch, "Song Tradition of Tristan da Cunha (1970) pp.90-93 (version A). b. "Yonder sits a handsome lady," sung by Frances Repetto of Tristan da Cunha about 1938. From: Munch, Song Tradition of Tristan da Cunha (1970) pp.90-93 (version B). * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Sep 17 - 05:04 PM Great stuff, Richie. As an addendum have you considered including all of those songs that use the 'oh, no, no' motif? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 13 Sep 17 - 05:38 PM Hi Steve, In order to separate the various versions based on, or similar to, "Madam" which are clearly different, a number of appendices have been created: 8A. "Oh No, John," "No Sir" and the "she answered No" songs. 8B. The Courting Case (Courting Cage); "O Miss, I Have A Very Fine Farm," etc. 8C. On a Mountain Stands a Lady (Children's game songs, Plough Plays; Skipping songs) 8D. The Quaker's Courtship, or, Quaker's Wooing 8E. The Spanish Lady ("Dublin City" "Madam, I'm a Darling" or "Chester City,") All Spanish Lady variants (Five basic types). 8F. Come My Little Roving Sailor ("Roving Sailor") Play-party song found in the US. There are a few (see last post) versions of "she answered No" which are primarily stanzas of Madam-- most are not and are Roud 126. However, many of the "she answered No" songs are different from each other but I've grouped then under 8A. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 15 Sep 17 - 12:03 PM Hi, The US/Canada versions of Madam are here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-8-madam-i-have-come.aspx The British and Other versions of Madam are here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-versions-8-madam-i-havetwenty-eighteen.aspx Both headnotes in rough form are finished. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 19 Sep 17 - 09:04 PM Hi, I've started 8A. "Oh No, John," "No Sir," "Spanish Merchant's Daughter," "She answered No." The headnotes (15 pages so far) are here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/8a-oh-no-john-or-no-sir-.aspx Anyone with additional versions please post them. Here's a sketch of opening text so far: ["Oh No, John," "No Sir," "Spanish Merchant's Daughter" and the "she answered No" songs are a series of songs[1] where the maid, confronted by a wooer, answers "No" to his advances. The "trick" to the "No" songs is that the wooer eventually asks questions expecting a "No" answer so that he wins over the maid. The humorous "No" courting songs evolved out of a broadsides and print versions from the 1600s and 1700s which eventually became, by the mid-to-late 1800s, the well-known songs "Oh No, John," and "No Sir." No attempt has been made to include every version[2] of every song or ballad where the maid answers "No." Both Baskervill and Kittredge have provided some older analogs and variants-- but there are more. A number of additional "she answered No" songs are found in the Supplemental Versions Section at the end of these headnotes. A-H are all versions where the maid answers "No" but none are close antecedents of "No Sir," or "Oh No, John." Both A, "Consent at Last[3]" and G, "No, No" sung by Mrs. Wrighten at Vauxhall in the 1770s, are closer to "No Sir," and "Oh No, John" than some of the other "she answered No" songs. The purpose of this study is to show some of the underlying older versions and provide some guidance to differentiate between the more modern versions of the late 1800s and 1900s. That guidance is lacking in Roud 146 which lumps a number of versions of "Madam" with the "No" songs-- a problem complicated in part by past collectors titles[4] and the interchangeability of the choruses. Another important resource, the Traditional Ballad Index, like Roud, does not differentiate between "Oh No John" and "No Sir" and gives no background on the development of the "she answered No" songs. The Brown Collection versions are almost all from recent print, yet no mention of print versions is made in the Brown notes. So into the darkness we go without a torch. Although listed as an appendix to 8. Madam I Have Come to Court You (Yonder Sits a Lovely Creature), versions of songs where the maid answers "No" to her wooer clearly predate known print versions of "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" which were rooted in the mid-1700s[5]. The end of the first stanza of the earliest version of "Madam" (c.1760), which is titled "Lovely Creature," expects a response of "No" or at least an answer to his intention to court her[6]: Yonder sits a lovely creature, Who is she? I do not know, I'll go court her for her features, Whether her answer be "Ay" or "no." There a number early versions from the 1600s with the "No" response to the suitor's inquiries. The first, my Aa, is given by Bruce Olson from "a manuscript version of about 1635-40, in Bodleian MS Ashmole 38 (a collection of single sheets from various sources bound together), is so badly waterstained that most of it is unreadable. Only the first stanza of seven is legible: "Lady why doth love torment you May not I your grief remove? Have I nothing will content you With the sweet delights of Love." "Oh, no, no, alas, no." The lady's answer as a repeated chorus is "Oh, no, no, alas, no." This c.1635 MS is the antecedent of my Ab, "Consent at Last," which appears in Pills to Purge Melancholy, a series commencing in 1700 in Volume III, p. 82, dated 1719, with a tune. It goes as follows (original text): Consent at Last. Ladys, why doth Love torment you? Cannot I your Grief remove? Is there none that can content you With the sweet delights of Love O No, no, no, no, no: O, No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Beauty in a perfect Measure, Hath the Love and wish of all: Dear, then shall I wait the Pleasure, That commands my Heart and all: O No, &c. If I grieve, and you can ease me, With you be so fiercely bent, Having wherewithal to please me, Must I still be Discontent? O No, &c. If I am your faithful Servant, And my Love does still remain; Will you think it ill deserved, To be favour'd for my pain? O No, &c. If I should then crave a Favour, Which your Lips invite me to, Will you think it ill Behaviour, Thus to steal a Kiss or two? O No, &c. All Amazing Beauty's Wonder, May I presume your Breast to touch? Or to feel a little under, Will you think I do too much? O No, &c. Once more fairest, let me try ye[6] Now my wish is fully sped, If all Night, I would lye by ye, Shall I be refus'd your Bed? O No, &c. In this version the suitor has adeptly figured out how to have his way with the lass even with a "No" answer. "Consent at Last" was called the original of the "she answered No" songs by early music authority Bruce Olson[7]. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 19 Sep 17 - 09:13 PM Hi, Here are the versions of 8A. "Oh No, John," "No Sir," "Spanish Merchant's Daughter," "She answered No" listed so far: Aa. "Lady why doth love torment you" from "a manuscript version of about 1635-40, in Bodleian MS Ashmole 38 (a collection of single sheets from various sources bound together)." ref. Bruce Olson. b. "Consent at Last" from Pills to Purge Melancholy, commencing in 1700; (III, p. 82, 1719), with a tune. c. "To a Lady" Jack Horntip Collection, no date given, no chorus. See in Supplemental versions below. B. "A Warning for Maides," attributed to Richard Crimsal and "printed at London for John Wright, the younger, dwelling at the upper end of the Old-Bayley," dated circa 1636. C. "The Dumb Lady; Or, NO, no, not I; Ile Answer," a broadside in the British Library- Roxburghe 2.111. It was printed for P. Brooksy at the Golden-Ball in Pye-Corner between 1672-84. D. "The Denying Lady," a broadside printed by A. Milbourn, at the Stationers-Arms in Green-Arbor about 1684. E. "Shall I? Shall I? No No," a broadside by Tobias Bowne printed by Phillip Brooksby, London c. 1684. Fa. Song 1154. [Tom and Dolly] published in "The Aviary: Or, Magazine of British Melody. Consisting of a Collection of one thousand three hundred and forty-four songs," London, 1745. b. "Tom and Dolly" from a Dublin songbook; "A collection of songs: With some originals," 1769. G. "No, No" sung by Mrs. Wrighten at Vauxhall in the 1770s. It's printed in "The Choice Spirit's Chaplet: Or, a Poesy from Parnassus" by George Alexander Stevens, 1771 as Song 144. H. "No! No! The celebrated duet" which was "sung by Mr. Sinclair and Mrs. Rowbotham." It was published in a variety of music collections in the 1830s including "The American Minstrel: A Choice Collection of the Most Popular Songs, Glees, Choruses, Extravaganzas, &c." 1837. I. Songs with the "No Sir" chorus. a1. "No Sir." Words and Music Arr. by A. M. Wakefield, from: "Songs and Ballads: 96 Songs - words and music, W. F. Shaw," c. 1881, dated 1882. It's also found in Shaw's "Gems of Minstrel Song" also dated 1882 and later in Delaney's Song Book (New York). a2. "No Sir" from The play-party in Indiana by Leah Jackson Wolford, 1916. a3. "No, Sir." From the manuscript songbook of Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Alleghany county, lent to Dr. Brown in 1936 (Brown Collection Vol. III); the entries in the book were probably made some twenty or more years earlier. b. "No Sir" sung by Lucy White and Louie Hooper of Hambridge on Dec. 23, 1903; collected by Cecil J. Sharp. c. "No Sir" sung by Lucy Garrison of Manchester, Kentucky on 11 August, 1917 as collected by Cecil J. Sharp. d. "The Spanish Merchant's Daughter" performed by The Stoneman Family. "Vocal duet by Hattie and Ernest Stoneman with harmonica, violin, guitar." Recorded in Bristol, Tennessee on October 31, 1928. Original issue Victor V-40206. J. Songs with the "Oh No John" chorus/text a. "Oh No John" sung by William Wooley of Bincombe in 1907, collected Sharp b. "No John No" sung by James Beale of Warehome, Kent on September 23, 1908. Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/9/1777). c1. "Oh No John" composite arranged by Sharp, published in 1911. c2. "O No, John." From the manuscripts of Obadiah Johnson of Crossnore. Avery county, NC about 1939; Brown Collection III. Cover of Sharp composite. c3. "Oh No John." As sung by the Fuller Sisters, 1928; from "More Pious Friends and Drunken Companions: Songs and Ballads of Conviviality" by Frank Shay. K. Songs with the "she answered No" chorus. L. Songs with stanzas of "Madam" and the "she answered No" chorus a. "No Sir, No" (Yonder is a comely flower) c. 1919 from "Kentucky Mountain Songs" by Wyman and Brockway. b. "Oh No, No Sir, No" sung by Mrs. Mary Brown of Greene County, PA. Collected by Bayard in 1929; from Pennsylvania Songs and Legends, Korson. c. "Yonder Comes a Heavenly Creature" sung by O.B. Campbell Medford, OK 1934 d. "Madam I Have Come A-Courting" vocal performance by Jonathan Moses at Orford (New Hampshire); recorded by Helen Flanders on 08-24-1951. Learned in North Haven, Maine. e1. "Uh, uh No," sung by Lannis Sutton of Doxy, Oklahoma, collected by Sam Eskin in 1951. From Lomax, Folk-Songs of North America, 1960. e2. "All of her answers to me were No," recording by Peggy Seeger, Folk Songs of Courting & complaint; Folkways 1955. Similar to "Uh, uh No," sung by Lannis Sutton of Doxy, Oklahoma. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 23 Sep 17 - 10:42 PM Hi, Here's more on 8A. "Oh No, John," "No Sir," "Spanish Merchant's Daughter," "She answered No" songs. Below are several excerpts and one conclusion. The "Spanish Merchant's Daughter" by the Stonemans is a variant of No Sir. Here's a general conclusion: The inevitable blending of "Madam, I Am Come to Court You" and "Spanish Lady" variants with the "she answered No" songs has caused confusion and made classification difficult. Since the choruses have been somewhat interchangeable it should be noted that the texts of both "Oh No John" and "No Sir" have certain characteristics and are represented by stanzas usually unique to each. They share in common the Spanish merchant stanza and have blended in later versions. * * * * Here are four basic types of chorus in US: 1. The "No Sir" type: No sir! No sir! No sir! No-- sir! No sir! No sir! No sir! No. 2) The "Oh No John" type: Oh, no, John, no, John, no, John, no. 3) The "Spanish Lady" type: Rattle O ding, ding dom, ding dom, Rattle O ding, dom da. 4) The "her answers were no" type: Uh-uh, no, no sir no, All of her answers to me were no. The last Type (her answers were No) usually has "No Sir" in the opening and is often titled "No Sir." The first type is from the Wakefield print version of 1881 which was widely printed and well known both here and abroad. The third type sung to a West Virginia version (see: Cox, 1916) with Spanish Lady replacing "lovely creature" is similarly found in Gypsy Davy. The Spanish Lady versions that are not closely related to Madam sometimes have a "No Sir" chorus (see Bell Roberston's version above). In this rare US version of Spanish Lady (No Sir) by Andrew Hawes at Pittsburg, NH in 1943 he sang the type 4 chorus "her answer it was No"; As I rode out to McCloud city At twelve o'clock the other night Twas there I spied a Spanish lady Washing her scarves in pale moonlight. CHORUS: She said No, no sir no Still her answer it was No. The first type may be used to identify the Wakefield print versions. Since the Wakefield version is from American tradition it makes categorization difficult since Wakefield's version entered tradition and her text also appears with type 4 chorus. * * * * The "No Sir" songs were English then American-- see also the version from Tristan de Cuna, originally a British colony[]. "No Sir" has a wider degree of variety and is closer to the "she answered No" songs. There's is occasional borrowing from "Oh No John" (see Copper version) but in general is associated with the two garden stanzas found similarly in the print version: 3. If I was walking in the garden, Plucking flow'rs all wet with dew, Tell me will you be offended, If I walk and talk with you? CHORUS 4. If when walking in the garden, I should ask you to be mine, and should tell you that I loved you, would you then my heart decline? There are also two basic types of versions of "No Sir." Type A is the popular print version, "No Sir," which was arranged from an American governess by Mary Wakefield and published in 1881, entered tradition and has been collected both here and abroad. Type B are the traditional versions from whence Type A was born. Examples of this older tradition can be seen above in both the Bell Robertson version and the MS version collected by Sharp in Kentucky in 1917. The conclusion is "No Sir" usually has these characteristics: 1. has the two "garden" stanzas 2. has a wider variety of chorus variations and is sometimes mixed with "she answered No" choruses. 3. has the "tell me truly/why you scorn me" stanza usually before the Spanish captain stanza. 4. has the Spanish merchant/Captain stanza in common with Oh No John. 5. has "chickens crowed for day" or "We lay there till the cocks did crow" ending stanza found in the US and UK. Some rare versions of "Madam" use the "No Sir" or "she answered No" choruses. * * * * "Oh No John" is English and has two specific types. The best known, Type A, is the composite by Sharp. The other variants are Type B, made up of the traditional versions. Both types sometimes use the opening first and possibly second stanzas of Madam. Type B has variants of these three stanzas as found in Woolsey's original text: On her bosom were bunches of posies, On her breast where flowers grow, If I've a chance to touch that posy She must answer Yes or No. O No John! No John! No John! No! "Madam, shall I tie your garter? Tie it a little above your knee, If my hand should slip a little farther Would you think it amiss of me?" O No John! No John! No John! No! One night they went to bed we together There they lay till cocks did crow Then they sport till the daylight was breaking Now it's time for us to go. O No John! No John! No John! No! Clearly The White and Hopper version is "Oh No John" with a "No sir" Chorus. Stanza 2 of the White version is another bawdy type stanza that belongs to the "Oh No John" ur-ballad[]. The conclusion is "Oh No John" usually has these characteristics: 1. evolved from a bawdy English "she answered No" song. 2. used the opening stanza or stanzas from "Madam, I Have Come to Court You." Does not have the "Madam I have gold and Silver" stanzas or other stanzas of "Madam." 3. was sanitized by Sharp to become the popular "Oh No John" type A. 4. was not widely known outside of England and was not brought to America. 5. does not usually have the "garden" stanzas found in print and traditional versions of No Sir. 6. has the Spanish merchant/sailor/Captain stanza which also is found in No Sir. Oh No John was not widely known and few traditional versions were collected. Cecil Sharp collected four but the total of original traditional versions is less than a dozen with most just fragments. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 03 Oct 17 - 11:34 AM Hi, Here are my current updated versions of the "she answered No," songs: 8A. "Oh No, John," "No Sir," "Spanish Merchant's Daughter," and the "She answered No" songs. Roud 146 ("Spanish Captain," "Spanish Lady," "Scottish Merchant's Daughter") Aa. "Lady why doth love torment you" from "a manuscript version of about 1635-40, in Bodleian MS Ashmole 38 (a collection of single sheets from various sources bound together)." ref. Bruce Olson. b. "Consent at Last" from Pills to Purge Melancholy, commencing in 1700; (III, p. 82, 1719), with a tune. c. "To a Lady" Janck Horntip Collection, no date given, no chorus. See in Supplemental versions below. B. "A Warning for Maides," attributed to Richard Crimsal and "printed at London for John Wright, the younger, dwelling at the upper end of the Old-Bayley," dated circa 1636. C. "The Dumb Lady; Or, NO, no, not I; Ile Answer," a broadside in the British Library- Roxburghe 2.111. It was printed for P. Brooksy at the Golden-Ball in Pye-Corner between 1672-84. D. "The Denying Lady," a broadside printed by A. Milbourn, at the Stationers-Arms in Green-Arbor about 1684. E. "Shall I? Shall I? No No," a broadside by Tobias Bowne printed by Phillip Brooksby, London c. 1684. Fa. "Tom and Doll; or, the Modest Maid's Delight" written by Tom D'Urfey, printed among his 'Choice Songs,' p. 16, in 1684. Reprinted with music not only in the ' 180 Loyal Songs' of 1685 and 1694, p. 252, but aleo in the second volume of 'Pills to Purge Melancholy,' 1719 edition, p. 27. b. Song 1154. [Tom and Dolly] published in "The Aviary: Or, Magazine of British Melody. Consisting of a Collection of one thousand three hundred and forty-four songs," London, 1745. c. "Tom and Dolly" from a Dublin songbook; "A collection of songs: With some originals," 1769. d. "No Tom No" from Gardham's broadside collection M85738- single sheet, no imprint, mid-1800s G. "No, No" sung by Mrs. Wrighten at Vauxhall in the 1770s. It's printed in "The Choice Spirit's Chaplet: Or, a Poesy from Parnassus" by George Alexander Stevens, 1771 as Song 144. H. "No! No! The celebrated duet" which was "sung by Mr. Sinclair and Mrs. Rowbotham." It was published in a variety of music collections in the 1830s including "The American Minstrel: A Choice Collection of the Most Popular Songs, Glees, Choruses, Extravaganzas, &c." 1837. I. Songs with the "No Sir" chorus. The UK versions in general are stanzas of "Oh No John" with a "No Sir chorus. a1. "No Sir." Words and Music Arr. by A. M. Wakefield, from: "The Peterson magazine," Volumes 79-80, Philadelphia, 1881. Also "Songs and Ballads: 96 Songs - words and music, W. F. Shaw," 1882 and Shaw's "Gems of Minstrel Song" dated 1882 and later in Delaney's Song Book (New York). Arranged from American tradition by Englishwoman Mary Wakefield. a2. "No Sir," sung by Mrs. Holmes' mother who learned the song about 1900 in Barren County, Kentucky. From: Roberts & Agey, In the Pine (1978) pp.217-218. Recorded in 1958. Cf. 1881 version arranged by A. M. Wakefield. a3. "No Sir" from Mrs. T. N. Underwood of Correct, Ind. printed in The play-party in Indiana by Leah Jackson Wolford, 1916. a4. "No, Sir." From the manuscript songbook of Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Alleghany county, lent to Dr. Brown in 1936. (Brown Collection Vol. III); the entries in the book were probably made some twenty or more years earlier. a5. "No, Sir, No" sung by Mrs. Louisa Moses of Kentucky by 1930. From Harvey Fuson, Ballads of the Kentucky Highlands (1930) p. 81. a6. Scottish Merchant's Daughter- sung by Susie Evans Daley, of Tulsa (OK) c.1935. From Ethel & Chauncey Moore's "Ballads and Folk Songs of the Southwest," Univ. of Okla, Bk (1964). a7. "No Sir, No" contributed by Belle Plains High Scool as sung by Oren bewck sometimes of Belle Plains. Stout, Folklore from Iowa, 1936. a8. "My Father Was a Spanish Merchant," sung by Jennie Devlin (1865-1952), who worked and lived along the New York-Pennsylvania border. Collected Newman about 1937. From Never without a Song: The Years and Songs of Jennie Devlin, 1865-1952, by Katharine D. Newman. a9. "No, Sir, No" sung by Mrs. Grace Longino of Huntsville, Texas, May 13, 1939. From John and Ruby Lomax 1939 Southern States Recording Trip (AFC 1939/001). a10. "No Sir, No Sir." Sung by Mrs. Maggie Morgan of Springdale, Arkansas on Feb. 9, 1942. From: Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, Volume III, 1946. This is the text from Wakefield's 1881 arrangement. a11. "No Sir, No Sir" sung by Beryl Walker and Peter Diprose October 16, 1942 at Temora, a town in the north-east of the Riverina area of New South Wales, 418 kilometres south-west of the state capital, Sydney, Australia. a12. "Yes Sir, No Sir" sung by by Perkins Flint at Braintree Vermont, dated 11-20-1944. From: D41A - archival cassette dub, Track 06b; the Helen Hartness Flanders Ballad Collection at Middlebury College a13. "No Sir, No Sir." Sung by Mrs. Robert Weare and Mary Jo Davis at DeValls Bluff, Arkansas on June 15, 1954. Ozark Folksong Collection Reel 195 Item 3. Collected by Mary Jo Davis for M.C. Parler. This is Wakefield's 1881 text. a14. "No Sir." Sung by Oleavia Houser of Fayetteville, Arkansas on December 7, 1958. From Ozark Folksong Collection, Reel 278, Item 9. Collected by Merlyn B. Page and James R. Hayes. This is Wakefield's 1881 text. a15. "No, Sir." Sung by Bessie Atchley of Green Forest, on Arkansas July 7, 1960. Ozark Folksong Collection Reel 388, Item 3. Collected by M.C. Parler. Transcribed by Bessie Atchley. This is Wakefield's 1881 text. a16. "No Sir," sung by Jean Ritchie of Viper, Kentucky in 1961 who learned from her sister Edna Ritchie who in turn got it from a friend at Lothair Kentucky. From the Folkways Recording: "Precious Memories." b. "No Sir" sung by Lucy White and Louie Hooper of Hambridge on Dec. 23, 1903; collected by Cecil J. Sharp. Has stanzas of "Oh No John" with "No Sir" chorus. c. "No Sir, No," composite with first two stanzas from John Greening of Cuckold's Corner, Dorset in May 1906, verse 3 is from "Madam." The chorus, tune and 4-7 verses are from Mrs. Bowring of Cerne Abbas, Dorset in December 1907. Greening from Hammond Collection. d. "No, Sir! No" sung by Mrs. Bowring of Cerne Abbas, Dorset in Sept 1907. From Henry Hammond Manuscript Collection (HAM/5/35/15). Primarily stanzas of "Oh No John" with "No Sir" chorus. e. "No Sir!" Sung by Alfred Emery, Othery, Somerset on 6 April, 1908. From: Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/10/1604). Two versions of "Oh No John" text taken down by Cecil Sharp on the same day- three stanzas. f. "No Sir No," sung by Joseph Read of Trowbridge Workhouse, Wiltshire on 19 August, 1909. Single stanza with music from George Gardiner Manuscript Collection (GG/1/21/1427). g. "No Sir" sung by Lucy Garrison of Manchester, Kentucky on 11 August, 1917 as collected by Cecil J. Sharp. Stanzas of Madam and then "No Sir." h. "The Spanish Merchant's Daughter" performed by The Stoneman Family. "Vocal duet by Hattie and Ernest Stoneman with harmonica, violin, guitar." Recorded in Bristol, Tennessee on October 31, 1928. Original issue Victor V-40206. i. "No Sir, No," was sung by Mrs. W. V. Henderson of Fayetteville, Arkansas on February 23, 1950. From Ozark Folksong Collection; Reel 20 Item 6. Collected by Merlin Mitchell and transcribed by Kyle Perrin. j. No Sir- sung by Emily Bishop of Bromsberrow Heath, Gloucestershire, 1952. From Kennedy, Folksongs of Britain & Ireland (1975) p. 315 by Peter Kennedy. The text begins similarly to Wakefield's print version but has the extra stanza at the end from tradition. k. "No Sir." Sung by Mrs. W.N. Osborne. Recorded in Cord, AR, 8/21/57. Recorded by John Quincy Wolf, Jr. for The John Quincy Wolf Folklore Collection. l. "No Sir, No Sir," sung by Sam Larner, The Norfolk fisherman Sam Larner; recorded by Ewan McColl and Peggy Seeger about 1958. From "Now is the Time for Fishing", Topic TSCD511 and Smithsonian Folkways, 1961. Larner's version uses the somewhat bawdy "Oh No John" text with a No Sir Chorus. J. Songs with the "Oh No John" chorus/text a. "Oh No John" sung by William Wooley of Bincombe in 1907, collected Sharp b. "No John No" sung by James Beale of Warehome, Kent on September 23, 1908. Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/9/1777). c1. "Oh No John" composite arranged by Sharp, published in 1911. Also One Hundred English Folksongs (1916) pp.154-155 with a new end stanza. c2. "Oh No John." From "Song Ballads & Other Songs of the Pine Mountain Settlement School," Kentucky, 1923; Sharp's text with one additional penultimate stanza from 1916 version. c3. "Oh No John." As sung by the Fuller Sisters, 1928; from "More Pious Friends and Drunken Companions: Songs and Ballads of Conviviality" by Frank Shay. Cover of Sharp's composite with extra stanza from the 1916 version. c4. "O No, John." From the manuscripts of Obadiah Johnson of Crossnore. Avery county, NC about 1939; Brown Collection III. Cover of Sharp's composite. c5. "Oh No John" sung by Paul Robeson; Recorded c. 1953. Cover of Sharp's composite. c6. "No John, No." As sung by the Archer Goode of Cheltenham, Gloucestershire on January 6, 1975. From: Gwilym Davies Collection, sent to me by Gwilym, attributed to Sam Bennett but this is a cover of Sharp's composite text. d. "No Sir, John." Sung by Mrs. Hezeltine of Cambone, Cornwall on May 12, 1913. Collected by Cecil Sharp. Composite with music from Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/10/2848). This is a composite of three songs, the first is Madam with the "No Sir" chorus. e. "No, John No," as sung by Bob and Ron Copper of Rottingdean, Sussex, known before 1950. Recording: The Folk Songs of Britain Volume 1; Caedmon 1961; Topic 1968-- Bob and Ron Copper sang No, John, No, recording by Peter Kennedy. Also on "Songs of Courtship" Topic Records 12T157 and Copper Family's Leader album A Song for Every Season. Printed in Early to rise: a Sussex boyhood by Bob Copper/Heinemann, 1976. K. Songs with the "she answered No" chorus. a. "Haselbury Girl" fragment sung by Mrs. Balsh of Ubley Somerset on 23 April 1906. Collector: Cecil J.Sharp. b1. "Uh, uh No," sung by Lannis Sutton of Doxy, Oklahoma, collected by Sam Eskin in 1951. From Lomax, Folk-Songs of North America, 1960. b2. "All of her answers to me were No," recording by Peggy Seeger, Folk Songs of Courting & complaint; Folkways 1955. Similar to "Uh, uh No," sung by Lannis Sutton of Doxy, Oklahoma. L. Songs with stanzas primarily of "Madam" and the "No Sir" or "she answered No" chorus a1. "No Sir, No" (Yonder is a comely flower) c. 1919 from "Kentucky Mountain Songs" by Wyman and Brockway. a2. "No Sir, No" (Yonder is a comely flower) 1928 Bradley Kincaid, "My Favorite Mountain Ballads and Songs" with stanzas from Wakefield. b. "Oh No, No Sir, No" sung by Mrs. Mary Brown of Greene County, PA. Collected by Bayard in 1929; from Pennsylvania Songs and Legends, Korson. c. "Yonder Comes a Heavenly Creature" sung by O.B. Campbell of Medford, OK, 1934. Recorded later by Max Hunter. d. "Madam I Have Come A-Courting" vocal performance by Jonathan Moses at Orford (New Hampshire); recorded by Helen Flanders on 08-24-1951. Learned in North Haven, Maine. M. Songs with primarily Spanish Lady text and the "she answered No" chorus a. "Spanish Lady' sung by Bell Robertson of Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire; colelcted about 1906 by Gavin Greg; Greig Duncan I. b. "Spanish Lady" sung by Andrew Hawes of Pittsburg, New Hampshire June 18, 1943. Collected by Helen Hartness Flanders. N. Version of "No Sir" from Tristan de Cuna a. "No Sir" sung by Frances Repetto of Tristan da Cunha in 1938. From Peter Munch, "Song Tradition of Tristan da Cunha" (1970) pp. 90-93 (version C). After studying the modern versions it's clear that there are two types, The 1881 Wakefield arrangement and those that are obviously different. Some stanzas have floated to the UK and are mixed with Oh No John. In the UK "No Sir" is used for a chorus interchangeably with O No John. I still consider "O No John" and "No Sir" to be different songs possibly form a similar unknown antecedent --since they both have the Spanish merchant stanza. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: GUEST,Stevebury Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:19 PM (1) Roud lists "The Quqker's Wooing" or "the Quaker's Courtship" under Roud # 716 (in addition to the listings cited under R # 146 and R # 542). I don't know whether this adds to the already impressive accumulations of versions in this thread. (2) Let me add one correction, and some background, to the August 2nd post about the Allen family "Family Songs". This collection of twelve songs is not a manuscript, but a published booklet with twelve songs (with tunes!) from the Allen family. It was privately published by the family in 1899. At family reunions, the older members of the family knew and sang the traditional family songs. But, as explained in the introduction, "it is to be regretted that the later generations do not know them as well; and on that account, the compiler has undertaken this little book." The collection was reprinted in 1976 by the Newton [MA] Bicentennial Committee, The Jackson Homestead [which owns a copy], and the Newton Recreation Department, with an introduction and notes by Tony Saletan. I am working with Historic Newton on issuing a new reprint of this collection. Stevebury |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 03 Oct 17 - 07:58 PM Hi, TY Stevebury, I'll use that information for Quaker's Courting which I'll be working on soon. Here are the links for versions of 8A. Oh No John; No Sir; Spanish Merchant: Main Meadnotes http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/8a-oh-no-john-or-no-sir-.aspx British Versions: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british-versions-8a-oh-no-john---no-sir.aspx US and Canada Versions: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-8a-oh-no-john-no-sir.aspx Now it's on to the "Courting Cage"-- the question is: What is a "courting cage"? Madam I have a courtin' cage It stands in yonder town, And my estate I'll give to you, If it be ten thousand pounds, If it be ten thousand pounds. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:46 PM Hi, I'm nearly through with "Courting Case" although I've not carefully examined all the versions. Several words and phrases (measurements of money in "pounds" and "grog shop," a place where the wooer drinks, "rectified" etc.) indicated either an early America origin or a British origin. So far no British versions or antecedents have been found. It's origin is a mystery much as the two main titles, "Courting Case" and "Courting Cage" are mondegreens for unknown words from the original missing print. Here are the two versions: THE COURTING CASE. Sung by Mrs. Fanny Coffery at White Rock, Nelso Co., Va., May 8th 1918. O madam, I am a courting case, For you I've lain in woon, For you I'd give up all my store, If it was ten thousand pounds. (bis) O yes, you are a courting case Like many I have seen, But if you think you're courting me, I think you're very green. O madam, I've a very fine farm, Full sixty acres wide, And it shall be at your command If you will be my bride. O yes, you have a very fine farm And a piece of woods to boot, But when I get in that fine farm I'll hang you on a root. O madam, I've a very fine house And it's plastered white inside, And it shall be at your command If you will be my bride. O yes, you have a very fine house And it's plastered white inside, But when I get in that fine house I'll soon shut you outside. O madam, you're a silly jade And very hard to please; When you get old and the weather gets cold I hope to God you'll freeze. While I am young with a flattering tongue I keep myself from harm. When I get old and the weather gets cold My clothes will keep me warm. * * * * The other title is Randolph's "The Courting Cage" which he collected in Missouri in 1928 but was learned about 1865. Here's the text: Madam I have a courtin' cage It stands in yonder town, And my estate I'll give to you, If it be ten thousand pounds, If it be ten thousand pounds. I know you have a courtin' cage It stands in yonder town, And your estate I do not want, If it be ten thousand pounds, If it be ten thousand pounds. O madam, I've a very fine house Just newly erectified, And you shall have it at your command Whenever you'll be my bride Whenever you'll be my bride. I know you have a very fine house Likewise a fine yard, But who would stay at home with me, When you're out playing cards When you're out playing cards. Madam, I do not do that way, I do not think it right. If you'll consent to marry me I'll stay home every night I'll stay home every night. Madam, I have a very fine horse, He paces like the tide, An' you may have him at your command, Whenever you'll be my bride, Whenever you'll be my bride. I know you have a very fine horse, He stands in yonder barn, His master likes a glass of wine, I fear the horse might learn, I fear the horse might learn. Madam, I have a very fine farm, Full sixty acres wide, An' you may have it at your command, Whenever you'll be my bride, Whenever you'll be my bride. I know you have a very fine farm, A pasture at the foot, If you'll get me you'll turn me out, I know a hog will root, I know a hog will root. Madam, I think you're a silly jade Perhaps too hard to please; When you git old an' chill with cold, I swear I hope you'll freeze, I swear I hope you'll freeze. Your sassy wishes I disregard, You caint do me no harm When I git old an' chill with cold, It won't be you that'll keep me warm, It won't be you that'll keep me warm! Randolph, of course, knew of Sharp's versions titled "Courting Case" published in the 1932 edition of EFSSA. His version was first printed by Scarborough in 1938. It's important to note that these two versions are the exception and that "Courting Case" and "Courting Cage" are not normally found in the standard versions. * * * * Anyone that can find a British antecedent or version will be the first person to do so. Any suggestions about what "Courting Case" and "Courting Cage" are? I think this is from an early (about late 1700s) print that is missing. Can anyone speculate about its origin or date? TY Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 08 Oct 17 - 09:21 PM Hi, The most unusual version of "Courting Case" is this modern analogue from Douglas Gilbert in "Lost Chords: The Diverting Story of American Popular Songs" published by Doubleday, Doran and Company, Incorporated, 1942. No information was provided about this song which appears in the chapter on "The Hearth — and the Tavern": "The Girl Who Never Would Wed" I courted a round-bottomed lass one spring The birds were mating free, The sheep and the goats Were feeling their oats— But she would have none of me. When summer came and fields were filled With scent of new mown hay, The weather was hot, but she was not, For still she said me nay, For still she said me nay. The summer went and autumn came, And when the nights were chill, We sat beside the fire in Her house behind the hill. 'Twas then I said, Two in a bed Could warm and cozy be. I pinched her rump, but up she jumped— Says she, young man you're too free, Says she, young man you're too free. When winter came said I, why do You choose to sleep alone; And in single bed Lay like one dead As cold as any stone? I offered her my house and lands And all my worldly self With arms so strong to keep her warm- Says she, keep your arms to yourself. For years and years I roamed about And when I had my fill, I found this girl a woman grown, But she refused me still. So when you are old and gray, And shattery in the knees, When the wintry blast wintry blast rolls round your rump, I hope by Jesus you freeze, I hope by Jesus you freeze. * * * * This modern recreation, clearly based on Courting Cage, may have been penned by the author, Douglas Gilbert. Unfortunately I have no information of its pedigree. Anyone know about this version? The book is online at Internet Archive. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 09 Oct 17 - 03:37 PM I have no record of 'Courting case/cage' in Britain. It seems closest in style to 'The Keys of Heaven' Roud 573. I have come across unrelated songs 'The Courting Coat', 'The Courting Gate'. It may relate to the custom of bundling, which amongst poor families was a method of letting a couple sleep together before marriage but wrapped up in a blanket. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 14 Oct 17 - 12:29 PM Hi, TY Steve. I find no record of it in the UK either. I've finished for now Courting Case/Cage. The study is here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/8b-the-courting-case.aspx Here are the primary versions and some of the study: 8B. The Courting Case (The Courting Cage); Roud 361; "The Drunkard's Courtship" (Chappell/Foss); "The Gambling Suitor" (Shifflett from Clayton & Ritchie); "Kind Sir, I See You've Come Again"; "Kind Miss" "O Miss, I Have A Very Fine Farm," "If You Will Only Be My Bride," "The Wooing," "Gordonsville" A. "The Wooing" sung in 1934 by Mr. E. W. Harns, Greenville, who learned the song in Kalamazoo County, Michigan, about 1860. From Ballads & Songs of Southern Michigan, 1939, version A. B. "The Courting Cage" sung Mrs. Judy Jane Whitaker of Anderson, Missouri learned from her mother about 1865. From Randolph, Ozark Folk Songs, (1946) collected May 10, 1928. C. "Madam, I Have a Very Fine Cow." My date. No informant or place named. From I.G. Greer Folksong Collection; Lyric Variant 01(handwritten) and 02 (typed). D. "Courting Case." Sung by Mrs. Fanny Coffey at White Rock, Nelson Co., Va., May 8th, 1918. E. "Gordonville." Sung by Mrs. Lawson Gray, of Montvale, VA on June 6, 1918. F. "I See You Come Again." Sung by Mary Gibson, of Marion, North Carolina on Sept. 9, 1918. G. "If You Will Only Be My Bride." Contributed by J. B. Midgett of Wanchese, Roanoke Island, probably in 1920. With the tune. From Brown Collection vol. III, 1952, version B. H. "Gordonsville" unknown singer published November 16, 1922 in the The Union Republican from Winston-Salem, North Carolina. I. "Kind Sir, I See You've Come Again." Taken from Miss Jewel Robhins of Pekin, Montgomery County, in 1922. From Brown Collection vol. III, 1952, version A. J. "Kind Sir" Mr. Austen (VA) before 1931 from Dorothy Scarborough "A Song Catcher" 1938. K. "Bachelor's Song." Duet sung by Jamie Williams and Emmaline Gullett of Ashland, Kentucky, 1933. Collector: Jean Thomas. From: Thomas & Leeder, Singin' Gatherin' pp. 4-5, 1939. L. "Madam, I Have a Very Fine Field," voice performance by A R Blake at White River Jun (Vt.). recorded 1935. Two stanza fragment. From a digitized archival cassette in the Helen Hartness Flanders Ballad Collection at Middlebury College Special Collections. M. "O Madam, I Have a Fine Little Horse" sung by Mrs. Flora Stafford Swetnam of Vaiden, MS before 1936. From Hudson Folksongs of Mississippi. N. "Madam, I Have a Very Fine Horse." From copy of Mr. W. S. Harrison, Fayette, MS who obtained it from the singing of Mr. T. D. Clark, Louisville. From Hudson, "Folksongs of Mississippi," 1936. O. "Madam, I Have A Very Fine Farm" sung by by Theophilus G.Hoskins, from Leslie Co., Hyden, Kentucky. LOC, publication date 10-03-1937; as recorded by Alan Lomax. P. "Madam, I Have a Very Fine Farm," sung by Vernon "Shorty" Allen at Shafter (California) FSA Camp, August 4, 1940. From Voices from the Dust Bowl: The Charles L. Todd and Robert Sonkin Migrant Worker Collection, 1940 to 1941 (533). Q. "Kind Sir, I see you've come Again," sung by Texas Gladden of Salem, Virginia 1941. Recorded by Alan Lomax. R. "The Drunkard's Courtship." Sung by Mrs. Zona Baker of Zack, Arkansas, in July, 1942. From The Native American Influence in Folk Songs of North Arkansas, by Theodore Garrison; The Arkansas Historical Quarterly, Vol. 6, No. 2 (Summer, 1947), pp. 165-179. S. "I'll Have No Drunkard to Please," sung by Mrs. Myrtle Love Hester of Florence, Alabama on 8 June, 1947. Collector: Byron Arnold. From: Halli, An Alabama Songbook (2004) pp.128-129. T. "Kind Madam." Sung Mrs. Frances Oxford of Spring Valley, Arkansas on March 9, 1951. Ozark Folk Song Collection; Reel 100, Item 3. Collected by Irene Carlisle and Mrs. Rachel Henry. Transcribed by Mary C. Parler. U. "The Gambling Suitor." Sung by Miss Ella Shifflett who lives on a mountain in Greene County, VA. No date given. From Richard Chase, "American Folk Tales and Songs," 1956; recorded on Tradition, TLP 1011 by Jean Ritchie & Paul Clayton. V. "Sir, I See You Comin' Again" from the singing of Marybird McAllister, Brown's Cove, Virginia, 11-5-58. Collected by Roger Abrahams, and George Foss. From Anglo-American Folksong Style. W. "Courting Song" sung by Otis Williams, Wesley, Arkansas in 1958. From Max Hunter Folk Song Collection, no date given. Cat. #1429 (MFH #473). X. "O Miss, I Have a Very Fine Farm," sung by Mrs. Lizzie Maguire, Fayettville, Arkansas on June 23, 1959. From Max Hunter Folk Song Collection; Cat. #0360 (MFH #473). Y. "The Lovers' Quarrel." Collected by Cansler in Dallas County from a man known since childhood. Adapted and arranged by Loman D. Cansler; recorded in 1959. From the recording Missouri Folk Songs by Cansler on Smithsonian Folkways PH5324. Z. "Courtin' Song" vocal duet sung by Pleaz & Olive Mobley of Clay County, KY about 1960 released on Folkways FA 2358 of 'American Folk Song Festival' performance. AA. "Drunkard's Courtship." Recorded from Horton Barker of Virginia for Folkways in Beech Creek, North Carolina, by Sandy Paton, 1962. BB. "Miss, I Have a Very Fine Horse," from the singing of Deana Crumpler and Susan Harriet Snyder of Columbia, South Carolina on May 14, 1963. Collected by Mrs. Robert Snyder; published by McNeil, "Southern Folk Ballads," 1987, Volume 1, page 12. CC. "Madam, I Have Come to Court," sung by LaRena Clark of Toronto, Ontario in 1964 (Aug). Collected by Edith Fowke and published in her "Ring around the Moon," 1977 p. 120-121. DD. "The Courting Case," sung by Lena Armstrong and Etta Jones on Beech Mountain Vol II, 1965. From: The Traditional Music of Beech Mountain, recording. EE. "Courtin' Song." Sung by Margaret and Harold Winters, October 1966; from Folksongs I, Burton & Manning, 1967. * * * * ["The Courting Case" also "The Courting Cage" is a courting song that begins similarly to "Madam I Have Come to Court You" and seems to be based on "Madam" but the suitor offers instead of "gold and silver"-- a farm and farm animals. In the ensuing dialogue the lady reveals that she knows the suitor is a ne'er-do-well man who gambles and drinks. After the suitor fails to win over the lady he responds bitterly[1]: When you get old and the weather gets cold I hope to God you'll freeze [as sung by Fanny Coffey, Virginia, 1918]. This humorous song has many titles but is generally known by two: "The Courting Case" by Sharp, while Randolph and Brown call it, "The Courting Cage." Both "Courting Case" and "Courting Cage" are mondegreens[2]. Several suggestions as to the meaning have been offered with no satisfactory solution[3]. In my opinion it could be a mishearing of "a-courting come." However, in Randolph's version[4], the "cage" is a physical object: Madam I have a courtin' cage It stands in yonder town, And my estate I'll give to you, If it be ten thousand pounds, If it be ten thousand pounds. Sharp's master title is taken from an 1918 version by Fanny Coffey[5] with a similar stanza: O madam, I am a courting case, For you I've lain in woon[6], For you I'd give up all my store, If it was ten thousand pounds. The use of the denomination of currency as "pounds" in these two versions and others is evidence of the songs British or early American origin. Yet so far, no British antecedent or similar version has been found. Lacking evidence of the ballad's pedigree, "The Courting Case" is currently categorized as "early American origin" even though its suspected British roots may someday be revealed. The unique variants with the words "Courting Case" and "Courting Cage" have been only found in Virginia and Missouri suggesting these titles are an aberration, not the norm. Since the texts from Canada to New England, to Michigan, to the Appalachians are remarkably consistent, it implies an earlier origin from print. This missing print version would have been influenced by "Madam, I Have Come To Court You" and published either in the UK or the US before or by the early 1800s. No print version, however, has been found. The mystery of the origin combined with the enigmatic titles, "the courting cage" and "courting case" have piqued an interest in this little ballad. Vance Randolph, for one, vainly searched for the meaning of "courting cage" and even enlisted the aid of fellow collector Dorothy Scarborough who published Randolph's version in her "A Songcatcher"-- published posthumously in 1938. The Traditional Ballad Index has speculated that lyric was a "courting cake" while Randolph[7] writes that a Professor Almack of Stanford University says it's "a court engaged." The truth may never be learned until an antecedent is discovered either in the US or UK which discloses the original text. It's interesting to note that at least two versions refer to the wooed lady as a "hard case" in one of the latter stanzas: "Miss I find you a very hard case, Perhaps too hard to please, [McNeil, 1963] "NOW, madam, you're a hard old case, And just a little too hard to please; [Horton Barker, VA 1962] The possible implication being the "case" was somehow transferred or similarly used in the opening stanza. Courting "case" would be some archaic use of the noun, "case" where case= wooer. One version[8] by Pleaz Mobley of Kentucky has "I am a courtin' man" in which "man" replaces "case." A number of versions with different titles have been collected in the North America where it is also found in Canada, Michigan, the Midwest, Southwest, the Appalachians and even New England and California. Other titles include: "The Drunkard's Courtship," "The Gamboling Suitor," "Courting Cage," "Oh, Miss, I Have a Very Fine Farm," "Root, Poor Hoggie," "Kind Miss" and "The Wooing." A version from Ontario[9] has the "Madam" opening line and is titled "Madam I Have Come to Court." Lomax says in the note to "The Gambling Suitor" that it was "From the singing of Jean Ritchie and Paul Clayton, as published in American Folk Tales and [Folk] Songs, compiled by Richard Chase..." (The Folk Songs of North America, p. 104). Chase, however, writes of the source as: "This song came from Miss Ella Shiflett, who lived on a mountain in Greene County, Virginia" (p. 146). Here's the text to "Courting case," a version collected by Cecil Sharp in his Virginia collecting jaunt of 1918: THE COURTING CASE. Sung by Mrs. Fanny Coffey at White Rock, Nelson Co., Va., May 8th, 1918. O madam, I am a courting case, For you I've lain in woon, For you I'd give up all my store, If it was ten thousand pounds. (bis) O yes, you are a courting case Like many I have seen, But if you think you're courting me, I think you're very green. O madam, I've a very fine farm, Full sixty acres wide, And it shall be at your command If you will be my bride. O yes, you have a very fine farm And a piece of woods to boot, But when I get in that fine farm I'll hang you on a root. O madam, I've a very fine house And it's plastered white inside, And it shall be at your command If you will be my bride. O yes, you have a very fine house And it's plastered white inside, But when I get in that fine house I'll soon shut you outside. O madam, you're a silly jade And very hard to please; When you get old and the weather gets cold I hope to God you'll freeze. While I am young with a flattering tongue I keep myself from harm. When I get old and the weather gets cold My clothes will keep me warm. From this version Sharp created a master title of Courting Case and named all the versions he collected, Courting Case, even though the words "courting case" did not appear in them. The earliest extant version, "The Wooing," was sung in 1934 by Mr. E. W. Harns, Greenville, who learned the song in Kalamazoo County, Michigan, about 1860. Here's the text from Ballads & Songs of Southern Michigan, 1939, version A[10]: 1 "Madam, I have come to marry you And settle in this town; My whole estate is worth Ten thousand pounds. Which I will will to you, If you will be my bride." 2 "O that's enough for me, I don't desire you." 3 "O madam, I have a very fine house, All neat and rectified, Which you may have at your command If you'll but be my bride." 4 "I know you have a very fine house Besides a clever barn, But you're too old to think to hold A bird with a single yarn." 5 "O madam, I have a very fine horse, Whose face is like the tide, Which you may have at your command If you'll but be my bride." 6 "I know you have a very fine horse, Which you keep in yonders barn, But his master likes a glass of wine For fear his horse might learn." 7 "O madam, I have a very fine field, Full fifty acres wide, Which you may have at your command If you'll but be my bride." 8 "I know you have a very fine field And a pasture at the foot, And if I had you, I'd turn you in, For I'm sure a hog would root." 9 "O madam, you are a scornful dame And very hard to please, And when you get old and pinched with cold, I swear I hope you'll freeze." 10 "And when I get old and pinched with cold, 'Twon't be you'll keep me warm; I'll be single and be free And stay as I was born." Stanza 4 of this early version is unique. It shows the wooer to be an older man who's courting a young maid. This echoes the theme of "Madam, I am Come to Court You" as well as the other American courting relative "Quaker's Wooing." The other early version of Courting Case is Randolph's "The Courting Cage" which he collected in Missouri in 1928 but was learned about 1865: "The Courting Cage" Madam I have a courtin' cage It stands in yonder town, And my estate I'll give to you, If it be ten thousand pounds, If it be ten thousand pounds. I know you have a courtin' cage It stands in yonder town, And your estate I do not want, If it be ten thousand pounds, If it be ten thousand pounds. O madam, I've a very fine house Just newly erectified, And you shall have it at your command Whenever you'll be my bride Whenever you'll be my bride. I know you have a very fine house Likewise a fine yard, But who would stay at home with me, When you're out playing cards When you're out playing cards. Madam, I do not do that way, I do not think it right. If you'll consent to marry me I'll stay home every night I'll stay home every night. Madam, I have a very fine horse, He paces like the tide, An' you may have him at your command, Whenever you'll be my bride, Whenever you'll be my bride. I know you have a very fine horse, He stands in yonder barn, His master likes a glass of wine, I fear the horse might learn, I fear the horse might learn. Madam, I have a very fine farm, Full sixty acres wide, An' you may have it at your command, Whenever you'll be my bride, Whenever you'll be my bride. I know you have a very fine farm, A pasture at the foot, If you'll get me you'll turn me out, I know a hog will root, I know a hog will root. Madam, I think you're a silly jade Perhaps too hard to please; When you git old an' chill with cold, I swear I hope you'll freeze, I swear I hope you'll freeze. Your sassy wishes I disregard, You caint do me no harm When I git old an' chill with cold, It won't be you that'll keep me warm, It won't be you that'll keep me warm! Randolph, of course, knew of Sharp's versions titled "Courting Case" published in the 1932 edition of EFSSA. His version was first printed by Scarborough in 1938. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:05 PM Hi, I'm on 8C. On a Mountain Stands a Lady (Children's game song variants) Roud 2649; "There Stands a Lady" (Sharp); "Yonder Stands a Lovely Lady;" "There She Stands a Lovely Creature;" "Lady on the Mountain" (Opie); This is one fundamental stanza from Berrington (Shropshire Folk-lore, pp. 509, 510): Here stands a lady on a mountain, Who she is I do not know; All she wants is gold and silver, All she wants is a nice young man. I was wondering if these late 1800s game and play songs can be compared to the Plough Plays found in UK and US. Anyone think that the children's songs evolved from the similar Plough Plays? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:59 PM More likely the village shows where dialogues of this sort were common, performed in rustic costume. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:37 PM Hi, Clearly the standard opening stanza (above) published in Gomme's children's game versions (late 1800s) is a reworking of text of "Madam." This excerpt sung by the Sergeant, a character in a Plough play for Lincolnshire in 1923, is directly taken from "Madam" except in the lady's response "handsome man" has been changed to "nice young man." The "Plough Jacks’" Play from Kirmington, Lincs. - R.J.E.Tiddy (1923) pp.254-257 (excerpt). {Sergeant's Song.} Sergeant Madam, I've got gold and silver Madam I've got house and land Madam I've got world and treasure, Everything at thy command-- Lady What care I for your gold and silver What care I for your house and land What care I for your world and treasure All I want is a nice young man. Among the cast of characters in this "wooing play" are the Fool (Bold Tom/Tom Fool), Sergeant or Recruiting Sergeant, the Lady (Lady Bright and Gay). In his "Mummers' Wooing Plays in England," Charles Read Baskervill presents a number of related antecedents from the early 1800s, which in theme are similar to Madam and the wooing or plough plays. Common text, as above, is not found. The common theme is: A maid is wooed by an older man (sometimes the leader of the play) who offers her a variety of gifts. She rejects his advances. In "The Scornful Maid" upon her continued refusal he breaks out: "Then fare you well, thou scornful Dame." This is reminiscent of "Madam" and also 8b. "Courting Case." Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:21 PM Like the songs these plays were constantly evolving and being brought up-to-date so the inclusion of a few well-known songs would not be surprising. Just like the song 'Drink Old England Dry' which is part of the Haxey Hood Game (N. Lincolnshire) which has been updated several times to suit a succession of wars. Even the characters in the plays evolve St George becomes King George etc. The term 'antecedents' can be quite misleading; just because 2 items are on the same theme, in song terms, we wouldn't categorise them together unless we were only looking at themes. It is very likely the mummers plays were inspired by earlier more sophisticated pieces but otherwise it is difficult to show relationship between them. The St George play was very likely inspired by The Seven Champions of Christendom but not directly based on it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 16 Oct 17 - 09:53 AM TY Steve, I agree that the print versions supplied by Baskervill are not antecedents but rather are examples of the rejected suitor. I'm contacting Peter Millington about the Plough Plays (Wooing Plays) to see if perchance there are earlier examples of "Madam" in these plays. The obvious connection with the children's songs has been pointed out by Baekervill and others. The differences are significant enough that a separate study of "Madam" as found in plough plays should be made. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 21 Oct 17 - 12:42 PM Hi, Here is my study of 8C. On a Mountain Stands a Lady (Children's game song variants) Roud 2603 online: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/8c-on-a-mountain-stands-a-lady.aspx The versions of children's songs with text from "Madam, I Have Come to court You" may be thus categorized as: 1) nursery songs; see those by Haliwell and Newell which are shortened versions of "Madam." 2) ring game songs; see those by Babcock and Waugh which are also shortened versions of "Madam." They include game instructions. 3) ring game songs which use the standard opening: "On the mountain stands a lady/Who she is I do not know/All she wants is gold and silver/All she wants is a nice young man," which is a composite of two stanza of Madam with changes (mountain- nice young man). 4) ring game songs which use the "On the mountain stands a lady" standard opening but have additional dialogue and characters resembling "wooing" folk plays. 5) ring game songs which use the "On the mountain stands a lady" standard opening combined with "Madam will you walk" chorus (Keys of Heaven/Keys of Canterbury; see Sharp's 1911 version) and additional stanzas offering various gifts in exchange for marriage (Keys of Heaven). The ending has stanzas about going to the church and eating various meals. 6) skipping or jump rope versions which consist of the "On the mountain stands a lady" standard opening followed by invitations for new participants to enter and leave the game. 7) skipping or jump rope versions which consist of the "On the mountain stands a lady" standard opening combined with stanzas of other songs. Here is an rough draft excerpt of my headnotes so far: 8C. On a Mountain Stands a Lady (Children's game song variants) Roud 2603. "There Stands a Lady" (Sharp); Yonder Stands a Lovely Lady; 'There She Stands a Lovely Creature; Lady on the Mountain (Opie); Lady on Yonder Hill [Some lines and stanzas of the text of "Madam, I Am Come To Court You" has been adapted as nursery songs and children's game songs[1] in a variety of ways in both North America and the UK. Published versions of game songs began cropping up in the latter part of the 1800s. The North American versions appear to be closer to the original broadside texts but shortened while the UK texts use a modified opening stanza wed to other children's lyrics. The theory that children's game song texts are similar to, or based on, courting texts associated with Mummer's plays and Plough plays found in The East Midland has been suggested by Baskervill and others who have written about the English wooing plays of the East Midlands[2]. Baskervill mentions "Lady on Yonder Hill," published by Mrs. Gomme [Traditional Games, I, 323-24]. The two "Madam, I have gold and silver" stanzas found in the plough plays bear the brunt of this association while the opening stanzas of "Madam" common in the UK children's games are not usually found in the Plough Play dialogues. According to Baskervill[3], "Two versions of a children's game which are apparently mummers' wooing plays in the last stages of decay were naturally not taken into account, though they at least suggest the former currency of the type in other parts of England, since one came from Derbyshire and one from Suffolk." In a footnote to the above paragraph Baskervill adds,"In the Derbyshire version, with an opening "Yonder stands a lovely lady," like a line in the Bassingham plays printed below, the rebuffed wooer falls on the ground and is revived by the Good Fairy. In the Suffolk version the Gentleman stabs the Lady and then revives her, calling her out of her trance with lines similar to the corresponding lines in the Bassingham, Cropwell, and Axholme plays." The original Mummer's plays, now called "Quack Doctor Plays" by Peter Millington are much older[4] but evidence of the use of "Madam" text with its identifying "Madam I have gold and silver" stanza has been wanting until the later part of the 1800s and early 1900s. Millington also suggests the plays text was "added to pre-existing house-visiting customs, and that this took place sometime during the early to mid 18th century, as an extension of the entertainments that these customs already possessed." This would mean that the "gold and silver" stanzas of Madam found in the plays would be in circulation in that area at the time of the plays creation. The children's games would also have been created during the same general time period, mid-1800s and adapted from local versions of "Madam." These games would be developed from, and along with, the nursery rhymes sung by children during that period. The first two lines of the first stanza of "Madam" has been used as the first two lines of the standard children's game identifying stanza by modifying the first line. It appears in a variety of ways: There stands a lady on the mountain, Who she is I do not know: Oh! she wants such gold and silver! Oh! she wants such a nice young man! or, There stands a lady on a mountain, Who she is I do not know; All she wants is gold and silver, All she wants is a nice young man. It also appears with the text reversed: "On a mountain stands a lady." The image of a lady on a "mountain" or "hillside" makes the stanza easily identified. It's derived from the first two lines of the opening stanza of "Madam[5]": Yonder sits a lovely creature, Who is she? I do not know, I'll go court her for her features, Whether her answer be "Ay" or "no." The source of "mountain" is unknown and only one reference is given to a mountain in the related "Madam" songs (see: The Dumb Lady-- 1672). The two lines are combined with a two-line variation of the last "gold and silver" stanza of "Madam" (the woman's response): What care I for gold and silver, What care I for house and land What care I for rings and jewels, If I had but a handsome man." In the text used for the children's game song based on "Madam," a "handsome man" is now a "nice young man" and the young lady who eschewed the "gold and silver" for a "handsome man" now wants "gold and silver." The two "gold and silver" stanzas from "Madam" are substantially the only text borrowed from "Madam" in the various wooing plays. The date these ring games and children's songs appeared in the UK is unknown but the empirical evidence points to the later half of the 1800s although they could have appeared shortly after the printed broadsides (c.1760). The nursery rhymes and children's game songs are not the same texts-- in general the nursery rhymes are shortened texts of "Madam" with little variation. The first evidence that "Madam" was used as a nursery rhyme was a version published by Halliwell-Phillips in a number of books[6] of nursery rhymes including the 1846 book, "The Nursery Rhymes of England, obtained principally from oral tradition." Halliwell gives this English version: ?MADAM, I am come to court you, If your favour I can gain.? ?Ah, ah!? said she, ?you are a bold fellow, If I e'er see your face again!" ?Madam, I have rings and diamonds, Madam, I have houses and land, Madam, I have a world of treasure, All shall be at your command.? ?I care not for rings and diamonds, I care not for houses and lands, I care not for a world of treasure, So that I have but a handsome man.? ?Madam, you think much of beauty, Beauty hasteneth to decay, For the fairest of flowers that grow in summer Will decay and fade away Haliwell gives no source of the nursery rhyme although the book notes claim it was taken from tradition. Despite missing the opening stanza usually associated with the game/skipping songs, this short version has the core "gold and silver" stanzas. It's an indication that the broadside stanzas were known in tradition at that time (see 8. Madam, I Have Come to Court You for the mid-1700s texts). In his 1875 book, "Around the Tea-table," Thomas De Witt Talmage says: After tea the parlour is full of romp. The children are playing ' Ugly Mug,' and 'Mrs Wiggins,' and 'Stage Coach/ and 'Bear/ and 'Tag/ and 'Yonder stands a lovely creature.' Clearly the nursery rhymes published by Halliwell and others were not just sung but were also children's games. Although Talmage does not describe the game, variants of "Madam" were used a singing game in a variety of ways in both North America and the UK. An article by W. H. Babcock was published in Lippincott's Monthly Magazine, Volume 37, 1886 titled, "Song games and Myth Dramas at Washington." Part of the first stanzas and two other core stanzas were included along with a description of the game: There are other ring?games in which love does not divide the interest with death, but forms the sole subject-matter. In one of these what must have been originally a dialogue is blended into a continuous song, in which all join: Here she stands, a lovely creature; Who she is I do not know. Madam, I have gold and silver, Madam, I have ships on the ocean, Madam, I have house and land. What care I for your gold and silver? What care I for ships on the ocean? What care I for house and land? All I want is a fine young man. Then a member of the ring is selected by the one in the middle to take his or her place. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Oct 17 - 12:52 PM Though one may derive from the other, obviously nursery rhymes are not the same thing as children's singing games and there need not be any overlap. They could easily have derived separately from adult versions. Unless there is definite evidence of overlap I would keep the 2 separate. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 21 Oct 17 - 01:11 PM Hi, TY Steve. The nursery rhymes are also used as singing games in multiple examples. Clearly the nursery rhymes are shortened versions of Madam with game instructions and are different than the standard children's games and skipping games which is the focus of the study. The standard identifying stanza for types 3-7 is: On the mountain stands a lady, Who she is I do not know; All she wants is gold and silver, And a nice young man. The study is too long to put here (I posted the first page or two)-- and it's not completed until I put the individual versions on. I realize in general the two are different/separate, so thank you-- I'll try and make that clear. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 22 Oct 17 - 12:03 AM Steve, If you look at the seven types of children's songs that use text from "Madam" in my post before last-- it's clear that the nursery songs and the nursery ring-game songs are different than the "On the Mountain" game songs of Roud 2603 which are the focus of the study. As far as I know there are only two type 1 versions-- nursery songs by Halliwell and Newell. Type 1 are shortened versions of Madam. All the other children's songs with the nursery song texts have ring-game instructions and there are at least four of these. Type 2 are also shortened versions of Madam. The other five types 3-7 are variants of the "On the Mountain" game songs of Roud 2603. I think it's clear that they are different. I just thought it prudent to include all the children's songs in the study. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 17 Nov 17 - 08:49 PM Hi, Long time, no post :) Here is the finished study of "On the Mountain Stands a Lady": http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8c-on-a-mountain-stands-a-lady.aspx I've rewritten it. These are the versions and how they are organized: 8C. On a Mountain Stands a Lady (Children's game song variants) Roud 2603; "There Stands a Lady" (Sharp); "There Stands a Lady on the Mountain;" "Yonder Stands a Lovely Lady;" "There She Stands a Lovely Creature;" "Lady on the Mountain" (Opie); "Lady on Yonder Hill;" A. Nursery songs (stanzas of "Madam" sung by children) a. "Madam I Am Come to Court You," published by Halliwell-Phillips in a number of books of nursery rhymes including the 1846 book, "The Nursery Rhymes of England, obtained principally from oral tradition." b. "There She Stands, a Lovely Creature" from New York Games and songs of American children, collected and compared by W.W. Newell by American children, 1883. B. Nursery songs texts (stanzas of "Madam" with game instructions) a. "Here she stands, a lovely creature," sung by Washington children. From Lippincott's Monthly Magazine, Volume 37, 1886; "Song Games and Myth Dramas at Washington," by W. H. Babcock. b. "Here Stands a Lovely Creature," from "Singing games," a 1890 book of children's game songs, by Josephine Pollard (1834-1892) and Ferdinand Schuyler Matthews (1854-1938). Published in New York by McLoughlin Bros. c. "A Spanish Lady." A Cornwall informant quotes (Dec. 11, 1909) a version formerly heard at Colborne, Ont., which he supposes to be Irish. From Journal of American Folklore, Volume 31, 1917; "Canadian Folk-Lore from Ontario" by F. W. Waugh. d. "Here Stands a Lovely Creature" hybrid collected in Australia before 1972 by Ian Turne- see Cinderella Dressed in Yella, New York, 1972; reprinted in The Bulletin of Sydney (December, 1998). C. Children's game songs with standard "Here Stands a Lady" opening a. "Yonder stands a lovely lady" (my title) collected by Robert Charles Hope from a Derbyshire servant-girl. From: The Folk-lore Journal, Volume 1 - Page 387, 1883 by Folklore Society (Great Britain). b. "Here Stands a Lady," from Burne, "Shropshire Folk-Lore II" (1885) p.509 (see also Gomme III) c. "Stands a lady" from Miss R. L. Husk, "Notes and Queries" 1892, collected in Shipley, Horsham (see also Gomme IV) d. "The Lady On The Mountain" From "Old Berkshire School Games" by Emma Elizabeth Thofts published in The Antiquary: A Magazine Devoted to the Study of the Past, Volume 27; edited by Edward Walford, George Latimer Apperson, 1893. Reprinted in Gomme as VII. e. "There's a Lady on the Mountain." From Children's Games communicated by Miss Nina Layard of Ipswich in Suffolk Folk-lore, Issue 37, Part 2 edited by Lady Eveline Camilla Gurdon, 1893. f. "There Lives a Lady" collected by Miss G. M. Frances of Colchester, Essex, Gomme B. From Dictionary of British Folk-lore, Volume 1, edited by G. Laurence Gomme, 1894. g. "There Stands a Lady" collected by Miss D. Kimball of Wrotham, Kent, Gomme E. From Dictionary of British Folk-lore, Volume 1, edited by G. Laurence Gomme, 1894. h. "Lady on the Ocean," collected by(from) Miss Chase of Deptford, Gomme F, from Dictionary of British Folk-lore, Volume 1; edited by G. Laurence Gomme, 1894. i. "There Stands a Lady." From "Children's Singing-Games"published in the Monthly Packet edited by Colreidge and Innes (London)- page 345, 1897 dated circa May 1896 from a paper compiled by Lucy Finch on the games played at Wing, Rutlandshire. Reprinted in Hinkson's "Victorian Singing Games" (1991) p.37. j. "There Stands a Lady on the Mountain." Collected by Judge Udal in Dorset, published in Folk-Lore Journal Vol. 7, 1897. See also reprint in "Dorset Children's Doggerel Rhymes" by Herbert Pentin, 1918 Proceedings- Dorset Natural History and Archaeological Society. k. "There Stands a Lady. " From the chapter "Courting Songs" in "The Study of Man" by Alfred Cort Haddon of Inisfail, Cambridge; 1898. l. "There's a Lady Over Yonder" sung by Miss Jeannie Brown, c. 1907, Greig-Duncan 8 p.143. D. Children's game songs with standard "Here Stands a Lady" opening which are similar to folk (Mummers) plays a. "Lady on Yonder Hill" sung by Suffolk children. Gomme's title. From "Children's Games communicated by Miss Nina Layard Ipswich" in Suffolk Folk-lore, Issue 37, Part 2 edited by Lady Eveline Camilla Gurdon, 1893. Reprinted by Gomme in her book, Dictionary of British Folk-lore, Volume 1 as one of two versions of the game song, "Lady on Yonder Hill." b. "Yonder Stands a Lovely Lady," collected by Robert Charles Hope from a Derbyshire servant-girl. From: The Folk-lore Journal, Volume 1 - Page 387, 1883 by Folklore Society (Great Britain). E. Children's game songs with standard "Here Stands a Lady" opening that are composites of "Madam Will you Walk (Keys of Heaven)." a. "There Stands A Lady" (Keys of Heaven) from John Barnett of Bridgwater, Somerset on 12 April, 1906. From: Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection (at Clare College, Cambridge) (CJS2/10/874) (Singing Game) b. "There Stands a Lady" (The Keys of Heaven) from Gillington's " Old Surrey Singing Games and Skipping Rope Rhymes" 1909. c. "There Stands a Lady," collected from girls at Littleport Town Girls' School by Cecil Sharp. 8 Sept 1911 at Littleport, Cambridgeshire. d. "There Stands a Lady." From Norman Douglas, "London Street Games" (1st edition, 1916) pp. 85-87. e. "There Stands a Lady." from the TV sitcom series "Liver Birds" set in Liverpool that aired from 1969 to 1979. F. Children's skipping or jump rope game versions with "On the mountain stands a lady" standard opening followed by invitations for new participants to enter and leave the game. a. "On a Mountain Stands a Lady," John Hornby, "The Joyous Book of Singing Games." Collected and Arranged with Pianoforte Accompaniments, New York: The Macmillan Co., 1914. b. "Lady on the Mountain," dated c.1916. From "Clog Clatters in Old Sutton" by Frank Bamber, 1995. Recollection of a childhood spent in Sutton in borough of St. Helens, Merseyside in Lancashire. c. "On a Hillside Stands a Lady" dated c.1940. From: Southern California Jump-Rope Rhymes: A Study in Variants by Ray B. Browne from Western Folklore, Vol. 14, No. 1 (Jan., 1955), pp. 3-22. d. "On The Mountain Stands a Lady," c.1945. From: "Childhood Memories of Huyton." Huyton is a borough of Knowsley in Merseyside, Liverpoool. e. "On the Mountain Stands a Lady," recalled from Cribbs School, Michigan about 1945. From Recollecting the Forties - page 60 by Carol L. Stone, 2000. f. "On a Mountain Stands a Lady" sung by London girls c. 1948. From Mudcat Discussion Forum as posted by by Desideratum1731 on 23 April, 2011. "We girls sang it when skipping in the 40s and 50s in London." g. "On a Hill There Lives a Lady," collected by Sue Shanks from Lola Kennedy of Monongalia County, West Virginia before 1948. From: Musick: Hoosier Folklore 7:1 (1948) pp. 11-12. h. "On the Mountain." From a film of children singing in 1950 at Norton Park School in Edinburgh, Scotland (released 1951). From the short film, "The Singing Street," made in 1950 at Norton Park School in Edinburgh, Scotland by by Nigel McIsaac, Raymond Townsend andf James T. Ritchie. i. "On the Corner Stands a Lady," c.1950 Roud A. No informant named from Hamphire, 1950s. Taken from Roud's "The Lore of the Playground: One hundred years of children's games" 2010. j. "On a Mountain Stands a Lady" sung by school children from Edinburgh recorded August, 1954 by Hamlish Henderson; from School of Scottish Studies; SA1954.103. k. "On a Mountain" from East York Children (Toronto, Ontario) 1959 as collected by Edith Fowke. From Canadian folklore - page 85 by Edith Fowke - 1988 see also "Sally Go Round the Sun: Three Hundred Children's Songs, Rhymes and Games," by Edith Fowke - 1969. l. "On the Mountain Stands a Lady" No location or date collected given. From Growth Through Play by Albert M. Farina published by Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, N.J., 1959. m. "On a Mountain Stands a Lad," sung by Lucy Stewart of Old Deer, Aberdeenshire, recorded June, 1960 by Prof. Kenneth Goldstein; From School of Scottish Studies; SA1960.171. n. "On a Mountain Stands a Lady" sung by Pete Elliot and family of Co. Durham, Birtley. Recorded by MacColl and Seeger. From "The Elliots of Birtley" a 1962 Folkways recording. o. "On a Mountain Stands a Lady," c.1965 from Mudcat Discussion Forum, 2010 from Guest from Canada. p. "On a Mountain Stands a Lady," 1968 Callow A, From The James T. Callow Folklore Archive of Detroit Michigan. q. "On a Mountain," collected in Grand Rapids, Michigan in September, 196, Callow B. From The James T. Callow Folklore Archive. r. "Jump-Rope Rhyme," Callow C. From The James T. Callow Folklore Archive, collected in Detroit, Michigan in September, 10-15, 1969. s. "On the Mountain Stands a Lady," dated 1971 Opie B. From Children's games with things: marbles, fivestones, throwing and Catching, Gambling, Hopscotch, Chucking and Pitching, Ball-Bouncing, Skipping, Tops and Tipcat by Iona Archibald Opie and Peter Opie - 1997. t. "On the Mountain Stands a Castle," from Scotland, 1974 Opie C. From "Children's games with things: marbles, fivestones, throwing and Catching, Gambling, Hopscotch, Chucking and Pitching, Ball-Bouncing, Skipping, Tops and Tipcat" by Iona Archibald Opie, Peter Opie - 1997. u. "There's a Lady On the Mountain," from Norfolk 1975 Opie D. From Children's games with things: marbles, fivestones, throwing and Catching, Gambling, Hopscotch, Chucking and Pitching, Ball-Bouncing, Skipping, Tops and Tipcat by Iona Archibald Opie, Peter Opie - 1997. v. "On a Mountain," from Paddy resident of Liverpool, 2008. Posted by Paddy on Skipping songs from the past - YO! Liverpool. G. Children's skipping or jump rope versions with the "On the mountain stands a lady" standard opening combined with stanzas of other songs (see also C). a. "Happy Hooligan" Unknown informant. From The New Yorker: Nov 13, 1937. Reprinted in A Treasury Of American Folklore, Botkin- page 801, 1944. b. "On the Mountain Stands a Lady," collected from children by Andrew D. Miller in Edinburgh, Scotland. From "Golden City: Scottish Children's Street Games & Songs" page 165, by James T. R. Ritchie- 1965. c. "On a Mountain Stands a Lady," sung by children of S. London in 1974, Roud B. From "The Lore of the Playground: One hundred years of children's games, by Steve Roud - 2010. d. "On a Hillside Stands a Lady," recording as schoolgirls from Huish Episcopi, Somerset, continue to demonstrate and perform playground games and songs for Iona Opie. The tape was recorded in August, 1978. From Opie collection of children's games & songs C898-76-02. e. "On the Hillside," girls from Belfast, 2000. From Mudcat Discussion Forum, 2000 posted by Jimmy C. This version is nearly identical to the Liverpool version in Hope Place by Michael Wynne. f. "On the Mountain." Posted by Jean from SW Scotland in 2004 on TalkingScot discussion board. g. "On a Hillside Stands a Lady" from Newry, County Down. From anon post in "Newry Journal History and Reminiesence" from Newry, Ireland (no. 20); February 1, 2006 Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 17 Nov 17 - 09:00 PM Hi, British (Aussie) versions are here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/british-versions-8c-on-a-mountain-stands-a-lady.aspx The US/ Canada versions are here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-vers-8c-on-a-mountain-stands-a-lady.aspx The article, "The Lady on the Mountain: A Century of Play Rhyme Tradition" by Nigel G.N. Kelsey (1985) is on my Recordings & Info page, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:32 PM Great stuff, Richie! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 24 Nov 17 - 07:53 PM Hi, I'm starting on 8D. Quaker's Wooing/Courtship and have one important addition to the standard repertoire that is from an Autograph Album once owned by John Niblo of New York which was reprinted in "Early Cayuga Days: Folk lore and local history of a New York county" by Dorothy E. Snow in 1940. No title (I'm using "Quaker's Wooing") was provided and the original spelling kept. This version from Cayuga County, New York is the earliest extant version and brings the date closer to the 1700s. The penultimate stanza is similar to Henneberry's stanza from Devil's Island, NS. The unusual "c-m" chorus is presumably used to simulate a "hmm" or "hum" sound which in this case would be "sim." Dorothy E. Snow reports: "In the back pages of an Autograph Album once owned by John Niblo, Poplar Ridge, and dated 1835. I found these lilting lines, obviously copied in the penmanship of owner Niblo:" Madam I have come a courting O deary O - O deary me Madam I have come a wooing c-m c-m c-m c-m c-m Get you gone you ugly Quaker Tal lal laddy O I'll have none your Quaker actions Cuddy mading a daddy O. O here is a ring cost forty bright shillings, O deary O - O deary me Thou shalt have it if thou art willing c-m c-m c-m c-m c-m O I wants none your rings nor money Tal lal laddy O I'll have a husband call me honey Cuddy mading a daddy O O must I be a presbytterian[1], O deary O - O deary me Or must I be of no religion c-m c-m c-m c-m c-m O you must learn to lie and flatter Tal lal laddy O Or else you never can come at her Cuddy mading a daddy O O going to bed I do not chose[2] it O deary O - O deary me Going to bed I do refuse it c-m c-m c-m c-m c-m If sitting up is your desire Tal lal laddy O - O you may sit up by the fire Cuddy mading a daddy O 1. Presbyterian 2. choose These are a few of the early listings: A. "Quaker's Wooing." My title, from an Autograph Album once owned by John Niblo of Poplar Ridge and dated 1835; reprinted in "Early Cayuga Days: Folk lore and local history of a New York county" by Dorothy E. Snow - 1940. Her notes follow. B. "Quaker's Wooing." From: "A Pioneer Songster: Texts from the Stevens-Douglass Manuscript of Western New York; 1841-1856" by Harold W. Thompson, ?Edith E. Cutting. (10 stanzas) C. "The Quaker's Song," sung in 1931 by Mrs. Rachel Post, Belding, who learned the song at school, about 1868. From Ballads and Songs of Southern Michigan- by Emelyn- Elizabeth Gardner and Geraldine Jencks Chickering, Ann Arbor: The University of Michigan Press London: Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press: 1939. D. "The Quaker's Courtship." Sung in 1934 by Mrs. Charles Muchler, Kalkaska, who learned the song when she was a child, about 1872. From Ballads and Songs of Southern Michigan- by Emelyn- Elizabeth Gardner and Geraldine Jencks Chickering, Ann Arbor: The University of Michigan Press London: Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press: 1939. E. "Quaker's Courtship" arranged by George Kanski and published in 1878 in New York by William A. Pond Co. (10 stanzas) F. "Quaker Courtship." From "Games and songs of American children, collected and compared" by W.W. Newell; 1883. This was taken from children in Hartford, Connecticut. (8 stanzas) G. "The Old Quaker." From the Rowell manuscript, c. 1883. From Ballads and Songs of Southern Michigan- by Emelyn- Elizabeth Gardner and Geraldine Jencks Chickering, Ann Arbor: The University of Michigan Press London: Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press: 1939. H. "The Quaker Song." From "A Book of Nursery Songs and Rhymes," p. 35, S. Baring-Gould, Editor, published in 1895 by Methuen and Co. London. The song notes report it was "collected from a Devonshire nurse." The song is attributed to Mary Langworthy in Sabine Baring-Gould Manuscript Collection (SBG/3/12/6B). See text below. I. "Quaker's Wooing." dated 1899. From "Some Traditional Songs" by Phillips Barry, 1905. Taken from The Allen Family Songs booklet which was "compiled by Rosa S. Allen; music arranged by Joseph A. Allen. As sung by the Aliens at the Homestead, Castle Hill, Medfield, Massachusetts, 1899." J. "Quaker's Courtship," about 1901, from Mrs. Carl Hubbell of Woodstock who learned the song when she was a very young girl from a summer visitor to the Catskills at the turn of the century. From the Album FH5311 (Folksongs of the Catskills) dated 1963 by Folkways Records by Moncure and Siemsen. Sung by Barbara Moncure. K. "Quaker's Wooing." Anon informant, from Fall River, Mass. published in "Some Traditional Songs" by Phillips Barry, 1905. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 24 Nov 17 - 08:11 PM Hi, The Quaker's Wooing/Courtship has repeatedly been categorized as a British ballad, yet there is no evidence of any tradition in the UK and only one related UK version: "The Quaker Song." From "A Book of Nursery Songs and Rhymes," p. 35, S. Baring-Gould, Editor, published in 1895 by Methuen and Co. London. Like the Courting Case, the Quaker's Wooing is of mysterious origin and appears to be based on a print from the late 1700s which has disappeared. Whether it's British or American is conjecture but there are valid arguments for either origin. I'm hoping to wrap this ballad up in a few more days. Anyone with early versions before 1920 or opinions about the origin please post, TY Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Hollowfox Date: 27 Nov 17 - 07:53 PM I wish you well on this quest! I was a bit surprised to see Vandy, Vandy in the list at the beginning of the post (I think you've gone beyond your base question of humorous songs *g*), and nothing I have is as old as you'd wish, but I can perhaps help with the "Manley from NC" entry. "Vandy, Vandy" is a short story by Manley Wade Wellman, first published in the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, then anthologized in the collection Who Fears the Devil, published by Arkham House in 1963, then in paperback by Ballantine in 1967 or thereabouts. The song is probably traditional, but no citations were given anywhere that I've seen so far. Bob Coltman put it on his 1973 album "Lonesome Robin", and may have made the tune. He guests on Mudcat, and I imagine there are other social media ways to ask him. Robin and Linda Williams put it on their 1978 album "Welcome Table" with the same tune as Bob. I hope this helps. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Nov 17 - 03:22 PM Hi Richie, I'm sure you'll have the Nova Scotia versions. Regarding the Devonshire version there are at least 2 possible Devonshire links to American songs. During the War of Independence many American prisoners were housed in the area and after the War some probably stayed. Also some of the singers in the area were known to have mixed with American fishermen on the Grand Banks off Newfoundland. There is a song 'The Quaker's Courtship' printed on a Newcastle garland c1800, with 2 stanzas, but it is not related. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 01 Dec 17 - 07:50 AM Hi, Thanks for your replies. I do have some info on Vandy Vandy and have included that on my site with the text. It's here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/1vandy-vandy--manly-wade-wellman-nc-c1946.aspx Thanks Steve. I was think along the same line-- that the source of the Devonshire version may be America. The Quaker's Courtship rough draft is finished and may be found here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8d-the-quakers-courtship-or-quakers-wooing.aspx The 50 versions are found under the US/Canada page: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-8d-quakers-courtship.aspx I'm working on Spanish Lady, one of the most complex appendixes of Madam. I'm also going to do a painting of the ballad. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 01 Dec 17 - 02:59 PM Hi, Here's a rare version from Appalchia of Quaker's Courtship I just found in in my grandfather's collection (Maurice Matteson Collection). The date of 1935 is crossed out in MS. Cleo Franklyn was born in 1909 in North Carolina and moved to Virginia where he married Elizabeth and had several children. Madam, I've Come A-Courting- sung by Cleo Franklyn of Smyth Co. Virginia about 1935. 1. Madam, I've come a-courting, Oh, dear me, I've come a-courting, not a-sporting, Oh, dear me. Well, if that is your intention[1], Fa da la dinktum, fa da la day You can sit and court the fire Fa da la dinktum, fa da la day. I have a ring worth many a shilling, Oh, dear me, You can wear it if you're willing, Oh, dear me. Don't want your ring, don't want your money, Fa da la dinktum, fa da la day[2] Don't want any man to call me honey Fa da la dinktum, fa da la day. They've called their dogs and set them on me, Oh, dear me, Oh my, oh my, how they did run me, Oh, dear me. You'd better run for I don't like you Fa da la dinktum, fa da la day[2] If they catch you they will bite you, Fa da la dinktum, fa da la day. 1. usually "desire" to rhyme 2. Originally, the Quaker's chorus is sung here (Oh, dear me), I've changed it to the woman's chorus. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 08 Dec 17 - 08:30 PM Hi, I started my painting of The Spanish Lady-- the rough painting is here: http://mattesonart.com/the-spanish-lady.aspx It's a bit intimidating to create an image as in Campbell's poem, Old age has laid its hand upon me Cold as a fire of ashy coal And where is the lovely Spanish lady The maid so neat about the sole? that he remembers her so many years later. I was unable to reconcile the image of her washing her feet so I returned to the original image of the 1700s which may have been relevant to Campbell's "Spanish Lady" also. She is bathing herself with a sponge by candlelight and moonlight. I included the two traditional stanzas on the left hand column they read: As I went out through Dublin City, At the hour of twelve o´clock at night, Who should I see but a Spanish lady, Washing her feet by candle light. First she washed them and then she dried them, Over a fire of ambery coal, In all my life I never did see, A maid so neat about the sole. I will finish the painting soon and hope to get the other three song paintings done that I've put off for several years. Painting has become too difficult. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 14 Dec 17 - 02:58 PM Hi, As far as I can tell there are only four extant US/Canada version with the standard traditional Spanish Lady opening stanzas used by Campbell for his poem. The first reported version with the archaic opening stanzas was learned by Richard Dyer-Bennet in NYC about 1942: “The Spanish Lady in Dublin City” sung by Richard Dyer-Bennet. Learned in NYC about 1942. As I walked out in Dublin city, At the hour of twelve in the night, Who should I see but the Spanish lady, Washing her hair by the pale moonlight. First she washed it, then she dried it Over a fire of amber coal, Ne'er did I see such a lovely lady Taking such care upon my soul. As I walked out in Dublin city, At the hour of twelve in the noon, Who should I see but the Spanish lady, Combing her hair with a golden comb, First she combed it, then she curled, Then into a a black and glossy row. Ne'er did I see such a lovely lady Taking such care upon my soul. Richard Dyer-Bennet version is a corrupt adaptation of Hughes' 1930 arrangement that Dyer-Bennet recorded in 1957. He learned the version in NYC and from his notes had no idea of the pedigree of his song. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 18 Dec 17 - 11:36 AM Hi, I'm through for now with the Spanish Lady--the headnotes: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8e-the-spanish-lady.aspx The texts versions are here. the UK: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/british--other-versions-8e-spanish-lady.aspx I only listed one standard UK version from the 1960s-- "Spanish Lady" an Irish street song as sung by Dominic Behan of Dublin on his 1959 Topic LP "Down by the Liffeyside." This uses Campbell's text with Hughes chorus. the US: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-8e-spanish-lady.aspx My painting is there online however I don't have a good photo of it. There are two more appendices of Madam which are both short. I'll post these soon, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 18 Dec 17 - 10:42 PM Hi, Here are the notes for 8F. Come My Little Roving Sailor on my site: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8f-come-my-little-roving-sailor-roving-sailor.aspx They are short so I've included them below: * * * * "Come My Little Roving Sailor" (hereafter "Roving Sailor") is a play-party song and fiddle tune that has, at least in Virginia, become composite with stanzas of 8. "Madam, I Have Come to Court You" (hearafter "Madam"). The song is identified by the following stanza[1]: Come, my little roving sailor, Come, my little roving bee, Come, my little roving sailor, Come, sailor boy, won't you marry me? Variants of this play-party stanza has been collected in western Maryland and Pennsylvania. In an area of Virginia along the Blue Ridge foothills (Franklin County and Rappahannock County) Cecil Sharp collected three versions of "Come my Little Roving Sailor" which, after the first stanza, where made up of stanzas of "Madam I Have Come to Court You." This was the text sung by Mr. Jacob Sowder at Callaway, Franklin Co., Va., August 14th 1918: COME MY LITTLE ROVING SAILOR Come my little roving sailor, Come my little roving bee, Come my little roving sailor, Roving sailor, will you marry me? Madam, I have gold and silver, Madam, I have house and land, Madam, I have a world of pleasure, All shall be at your command. What cares I for your gold and silver? What cares I for you house and land? What cares I for a world of pleasure? All I wants is a handsome man. Madam, do not stand on beauty, Beauty is a fading flower; The best rose in yonders garden Fade away in one half an hour. First they'll hug you and then they'll kiss you, Then they'll call you honey, my dear. They'll tell you more in half an hour Than you'll find true in seven long years. The last stanza is from the "Inconstant Lover" songs and is not part of "Madam." Sharp provided two complete texts and one first stanza which were later published in the second edition of Sharp's "English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians" (1932 edition, Karpeles editor). The other complete text collected by Sharp follows: Come my Little Roving Sailor- sung by Mrs I.T. (Lucy) Cannady at Endicott, Virginia on August 22nd. 1918. Come my little roving sailor, Come my little roving bee Come my little roving sailor, Come sailor boy, won't you marry me? Madam, I have gold and silver, Madam, I have house and land, Madam, I have a world of pleasure, All shall be at your command. What cares I for your gold and silver? What cares I for your house and land? What cares I for your world of pleasure? All I want is a handsome man. Madam, do not stand on beauty, Beauty is a fading flower; For the reddest rose in yonders garden Will fade away in one half hour. Two other versions of the identifying stanza have been collected in the US. Neither of the two versions has stanzas from "Madam" but both may be considered variants of the song. Florence Warnick in her JAF article, "Play-Party Songs in Western Maryland" (The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 54, No. 213/214 (Jul. - Dec., 1941), pp. 162-166) gives the following account of the Maryland version: The play-party songs given below were used in Garrett Co., Maryland. Members of Protestant churches were not allowed to dance, but there was no bar to their playing swinging games, some of which were not very different from square dances. In the small backwoods community where the writer was reared, we often had no musical instruments, and almost everyone made an effort to sing the songs which we danced or played. All the verses that the writer and those whom she has consulted can recall are given. II. COME, MY LITTLE ROVING SAILOR Come, my little roving sailor, Come, my little roving bee, Come, my little roving sailor, Won't you ring around with me? Come, my little roving sailor, Come, my little roving bee, Come, my little roving sailor, Won't you be right and left with me? Come, my little roving sailor, Come, my little roving bee, Come, my little roving sailor, Won't you change partners with me? Come, my little roving sailor, Come, my little roving bee, Come, my little roving sailor, Won't you promenade with me? Very little variety is provided in this text and it's uncertain if the songs collected by Sharp are the same. The other identifying stanza with generic choruses was collected by Bayard from Levi Hall of Fayette County, Pennsylvania in 1944: Come My Little Roving Sailor Come, my little roving sailor, Come, my little roving bee, Come, my little roving sailor, Won't you ring around with me? Chorus: Granny will your dog bite? No, child, no, child, Granny will your dog bite? No, child, no. Alternative Chorus: Little Betty Martin, Tiptoe, tiptoe, Little Betty Martin, Tiptoe fine. Clearly the identifying stanza is the same as the one reported from western Maryland. Andrew Kuntz reports[2]: "The tune is used more for songs than dancing, states Bayard (1981), and in Ireland is joined to the ballad "William Taylor." In Pennsylvania it was a song and play-party tune, and was used as a dance tune by fiddlers." The southwestern Pennsylvania tune is Dorian and resembles some of the archaic "Died for Love" tunes. Two of the Sharp versions are sung in minor keys: Cannady's tune is A pentatonic minor while Snowden's is in a hexatonic major key (A major). All of Sharp's tunes are in 3/2 time, have similar contours and seem to be from a similar source. Both the western Maryland tune and the southwestern Pennsylvania tune are reels in common time and seem to be possibly related. There are several other tunes titled "Roving Sailor" without text which may or may not be related to the identifying stanza. Number 444. "The Roving Sailor" (G major, 4/4, tune only) from Dr. Brown of Mayo was published by Joyce in his "Old Irish Folk Music and Songs, The Forde Collection: Dublin, 1909 p. 250. Kuntz reports[3] a fiddle reel titled "Roving Sailor" that was taken from "the 1938 typewritten manuscript of New Hampshire fiddler John Taggart (1854-1943), entitled "Recollections of a Busy Life" (New Hampshire Historical Society, Concord, N.H.). Taggart wrote in his ms. that the tunes "were all taught me during my boyhood days in Sharon (N.H.), by the various fiddlers in that vicinity" [Miller]. Miller points out that Sharon is in "the heart of the Monadnock Region of southwestern New Hampshire, where fiddlers and contra dances abound to this day" (Miller, Fiddler's Throne, 2004; No. 255, pg. 207). The possibility exists that these reels are related to Bayard's tune with text however they should be considered different tunes and are listed as so by Kuntz. Only the three Virginia tunes with texts that were collected by Sharp can be considered related to "Madam." [R. Matteson 2017] _____________________________ Footnotes: 1. Sharp A as sung by Mrs I.T. (Lucy) Cannady at Endicott, Virginia on August 22nd. 1918. 2. From The Fiddler's Companion (www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/) A Descriptive Index of North American, British Isles and Irish Music for the Folk Violin and other Instruments by Andrew Kuntz. 3. Ibid. Kuntz reports three different versions titled "Roving Sailor" (Joyce, Bayard and Taggart versions) but does not mention the western Maryland version or the three versions collected by Sharp. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 20 Dec 17 - 11:57 AM Hi, I'm working on 8G. Madam, I Have Gold and Silver (the Folk Plays). In Plough Plays in the East Midlands by M. W. Barley (Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 7, No. 2 (Dec., 1953), pp. 82: In addition to the usual song, Behold the lady bright and gay Good fortune and sweet charms, So scornfully I've been thrown away Right out of my true lover's arms; He swears if I don't wed with him As you will understand, Hie'll go and list for a soldier And go to some foreign land the texts from Lusby, Branston and from the Bassingham group of villages also have the dialogue which has survived unchanged from the early nineteenth century, in which the wooer offers, unavailingly at first, gold and silver, house and land, rings and jewels. The dialogue mentioned by Barley obviously refers to the gold and silver stanzas from Madam, however I find no record of these stanzas in a play from the early 1800s and the stanzas are not in the 1823 Bassingham play. Anyone know when the stanza, Sergeant: Madam, I've got gold and silver Madam I've got house and land Madam I've got world and treasure, Everything at thy command. first appeared in a folk play? What is the title of Lusby folk play? Anyone? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 20 Dec 17 - 12:34 PM Hi, The earliest version in the UK I've found so far is the Lincolnshire version collected by Carpenter from E. Andrew-Elsham-Brigg that dates to circa 1880 although it was collected c. 1934: [LADY]: I am a lady bright and fair, Me fortunes is me charms, I was thrown away so scornfully All from me lover's arms. He promised for to marry me, Which you will understand, He listed for a soldier And went to some foreign land. SERGEANT: Madam, I've got gold and silver, Madam, I've got house and land, Madam, I've got worlds of treasure, They are all at thy command (All will be at thy command) LADY: What care I for thee gold or silver, What care I for thee house and land, What care I for thee worldly riches, All I want is a nice young man. FOOL: That's me, my dear! LADY: Old man you are deceitful As any of the rest. But I shall have the young man Which I do love the best. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 20 Dec 17 - 01:15 PM Hi, I have a rough draft of 8G. Madam, I Have Gold and Silver (the Folk Plays)-- which I consider incomplete here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8g-madam-i-have-gold-and-silver-folk-plays-.aspx Hopefully I'll get more information about early folk plays that use the "gold and silver" stanzas. It seems likely that the children's game songs were derived from the folk plays sometime in the mid-1800s. Your comments and information are welcome, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Richie Date: 31 Dec 17 - 12:26 PM Hi, Happy New Year to all. I have finished for now my study of "Madam" and its appendices. I've proofed Madam again (it needed it): http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8-madam-i-have-come-to-court-you-.aspx The last appendix (folk plays) is roughed in and has the following plays with stanzas of Madam: A. "Plough Monday Play" recreated from tradition about 1860 by Uncle Joe and Aunt Mary of Craney Creek, Kentucky. Collected by about 1930 Marie Campbell and published in JAF, 1938. B. "Plough Jags," taken from Elsham-Brigg of Lincoln learned about 1880. From James Madison Carpenter and the Mummers' Play by Steve Roud and Paul Smith (Folk Music Journal, Vol. 7, No. 4, Special Issue on the James Madison Carpenter Collection (1998), pp. 496-513). C. "Brattleby, Lincolnshire Mummers' Play" from Mrs E.H.Rudkin Collection. The words were noted by Alice Wright while the mummers still played about 1894. They were preserved In a Family Scrap Album. D. "Kirmington Plough-Jags Play," from Kirmington, Lincolnshire as published in R.J.E. Tiddy's "The Mummers' Play" Oxford, University Press, 1923, pp. 254-257. According to Greig: "This particular play seems to have been added to Tiddy's collection by Rupert Thomson, who edited the book for publication after the author was killed in action on August 10th, 1916." E. "Carlton-Le-Moorland Ploughboys," dated 1934; from Lincolnshire Plough Plays by E. H. Rudkin from Folklore, Vol. 50, No. 1 (Mar., 1939), pp. 88-97. F. "Barrow-on-Humber Plough Play," from a MS in M. W. Barley Collection, University of Nottingham Library. Performed at the Festival of Britain Pageant at Barrow-on-Humber, Lincolnshire, 1951. G. "Coleby Plough-Jag," recreated from an earlier tradition in 1974 by M.C. Ogg of Coleby, Lincolnshire from information by Mr. Roly Redhead of Burton on Stather and Mr. Arthur Gelder of Alkboro' Lane. There may be others but theses are the ones that I found so far. The rough draft of the folk plays is here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/8g-madam-i-have-gold-and-silver-folk-plays-.aspx I've proofed the other appendices which are: 8A. "Oh No, John," "No Sir" and "she answered No." 8B. The Courting Case (Courting Cage); "O Miss, I Have A Very Fine Farm," 8C. On a Mountain Stands a Lady (Children's game songs) 8D. The Quaker's Courtship, or, Quaker's Wooing 8E. The Spanish Lady ("Dublin City," "Madam, I'm a Darling," or "Chester City," "Galway City," "Ettrick Lady") All Spanish Lady variants (Five basic types). 8F. Come My Little Roving Sailor ("Roving Sailor") 8G. Madam I have Gold and Silver (Folk Plays) Hopefully this study will shed some light on these songs, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Jan 18 - 02:40 PM Nice one, Richie! Happy New Year! Whither away now? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Madam, I Have Come To Court You From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Jan 18 - 02:56 AM It may be heresy, but I think this is a cute song. Here's a cute recording by Oscar Brand with the Simon Sisters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD82pOhdrgI I think the best-known U.S. recording of this song is the one by Paul Robeson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyweSQqquV4. Good, but not cute.... |
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