BS: G.B. and N.I.?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 02:12 PM

You lose.

Teresa May in case you had forgotten is the leader of the British Government !

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 02:46 PM

"Prime Minister Theresa May has said there should not be a hard border after Brexit"
Would that be the same Theresa May who took Britain into a General Election in order to give her party a firm majority in the Brexit negotiation - failed miserably and did a deal with a sectarian party with terrorist links and paid them a £billion bung for their support.
A woman to be trusted, no doubt - with your lives even!!!!!
Apart from the fuck-up in British living standards which, according to the Bank of England, will last at least a decade, Brexit not only risks the break-up of the British Union, but also has set back the Irish PEACE PROCESS back decades
"Prime Minister Theresa May has said......" - you cannot be serious!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:53 PM

i thought the plan was that the catholics were going to copulate like mad and the resultant kids would vote for a united reland.

you can't help but wish they'd shift their arses and get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:12 AM

Jim, May was just reiterating Britain's stated position on the post Brexit border. Britain does not require or want any change.

Teresa May in case you had forgotten is the leader of the British Government
Yes, but Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan is not.

If no-one wants a change to the border there will not be one, and this is not an issue.
The problem is that EU wants to make things difficult, and Dublin has to toe their line.

EU wants there to be a problem with the border and will make it an issue, and Dublin will have to choose which side it is on.

(One obvious solution would be for Ireland to join us in leaving EU.)

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:19 AM

""UK does not want a hard border Jim, just DUBLIN and the EU"

We know what the UK's position is professor but you stated above that Dublin and the EU wanted a hard border.

I asked what evidence you had to support the assertion that DUBLIN wanted a hard border.

You have not given any ................... You Lose !!!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:26 AM

You have not given any ................... You Lose !!!

I gave you what Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan said.
I also reminded you that Ireland is remaining in the EU which seems to want to create difficulties for us, including on the border situation.

If that means I have lost something, I can live with it thanks Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

You haven't said what Charlie Flanaghan is alleged to have said though have you.

I very much doubt if you will find him seeking a hard border.

You lose .............. (I must stop saying that it's boring.)

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Kampervan
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:38 AM

I don't believe that either Ireland or the UK WANT to harden the border; the problem is that anything that crosses from the north into Ireland can then move freely to anywhere else in the EU.

The EU wants to see a system that ensures that anything that does cross into Ireland is compliant.

If we can come up with the means of doing this then a hard border will not be necessary.

But it will be interesting to see how they approach this given that in many places there are farms that straddle the border and so moving say a load of potatoes from one end of a barn to another effectively takes them from outside to inside the EU

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 06:44 AM

"May was just reiterating Britain's stated position on the post Brexit border."
No she was repeating a promise they are not in a position to make
She fucked up her majority - why on earth should anybody trust here on anything (especially when many of her own party regard her an embarrassment)?
And why should any right thinking person believe someone who consorts with a party linked to terrorism?
You'd think all your birthdays had come at once of Corbyn bunged a million to such a party
Your party is corrupt, now has indirect links with terrorists and is incompetent
And it stands to have racist Boris Johnson as a leader should Mayfly fly away
You couldn't make them up if you were a scriptwriter for 'Yes Minister'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 08:04 AM

It is amazing that the same party that warned that should an independent Scotland not be in the EU then there would be border posts at the crossing into England now assures the people of Northern Ireland that there is no need for a border on an island where part is in the EU and part not!!!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 11:58 AM

No she was repeating a promise they are not in a position to make

No, she was stating a fact that Britain does not want or need to change the border.
Obviously it can be imposed on us from the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 12:14 PM

if it does provide a backdoor for EU people/goods getting into England, house prices in NI will sky rocket. it will become a place of enormous economic strategic importance.

the celtic tiger will be on the loose once again.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:23 PM

it takes two sides to create a border. Insisting the person on the other side does what you want when they disagree is just as much you creating the border as them.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:33 PM

No. One side can set up border controls without the other.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:40 PM

I'll tell you what, good people. Keith is very, very frustrated about his precious Labour thread being shut down, he spent a week hardly being able to get his oar in at all (wasn't it wonderful), and now he's decided to try absolutely anything he can to resume his attritional, vexatious nonsense games. He's at it here and he's at it now in the Glorious Twelfth thread. It's solid trolling. Let's ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:46 PM

I do not think I am posting more or less than I ever have.
You seem to be engaged in a deranged vendetta Steve.

It is a pity that we can not discuss the sacking of Ms Champion from the Shadow Cabinet though.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:55 PM

'it takes two sides to create a border. Insisting the person on the other side does what you want when they disagree is just as much you creating the border as them.'

i think all the countries annexed by Russia after the war would probably give you an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:56 PM

Oh, isn't it just. Go and discuss it with your mirror.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 06:12 PM

That was to Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 03:23 AM

I understand that point, Al, and I also understand that things like the Berlin wall and - if it happens - the Mexican wall are built by one side. But the actual border is the distinction between two sides, whether trade, nationality, taxation, religion, ethos or whatever. The walls and checkpoints are just a means of strengthening and enforcing the border. Annexation is when one side regards itself as so powerful that it can ignore the border, so once again, the requirement both sides agree on the border to maintain it applies.


Anyway, that's my two pennyworth. Other people are perfectly entitled to their opinion. As usual I will stick to my "state-explain-shut up" approach to threads.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 03:36 AM

The Border in the case of Ireland is a line drawn by politicians in order to divide one country into two halves - the secret lies in the name "Ireland'
Whiile it remains, we will still be filling body bags, as has happned wheever a country has bee divided artificially
to suit one side or the other.
Brexit has risked the progress that has been made to remove that barrier.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 04:00 AM

So you think that the people of NI should subsumed into the Republic against their will?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 04:21 AM

Do I belive that the residents of Chipping Sodbury should be allowed to secede from Britain because they decide that their life is better than that of the rest of the country - what an incredibly stupid idea
To divide a nation artificially - whether it be six counties, or The Southern States, or Cyprus, or Korea, or Viet-Nam, or India and Pakistan... is a recipe for filling body bags for generations to come - go count the dead of Ireland or the million who died in the India-Pakistan dispute.... or wherever.
The politicians made the decisions, not the people - all the latter want is to be allowed to get on with their lives in peace, without political'religious self-interested interference.
The Irish are a very self-aware people as far as their culture is concerned - spend time moving about the diffrent part s and you would become very aware of that fact
For a little England British nationalist, you show very little knowledge for the cultural awareness of others
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 04:29 AM

The politicians made the decisions, not the people

Not true. The people have spoken enough times on this. The majority do not want to be ruled from Dublin and would resist it.
You would force them at gun point if you could.

The majority is dwindling, so be patient.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 06:00 AM

i don't bloody care whether they want to be ruled from Dublin. they obviously want to still be in the EU. THey can't do that and be in the UK. THey could work out something with Dublin if they had the will to.

It would be a good time for them to sod off. Scotland too.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 06:09 AM

"You would force them at gun point if you could."

Brainless.

By the way, how was the "Conservative Party at prayer" this morning? Good turnout? Hope you all sat on the right-hand side of the church where you belong!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 06:21 AM

"Not true. The people have spoken enough times on this.
No they haven't Keith - how could anybody possibly vote to be British rather than Irish
They have voted for peace and quiet
The Idea that politicians could make a country British died with the Empire
When Catholics demonstrated for equal rights in the late sixties, the police guided them through stone throwing loyalist mobs.
The Six Counties have ben held by force of arms and a repression imposed on them by repression by a sectarian administration set up by Britain - that is not choice
In a few years there will be a Catholic majority in the North East - we can only hope they don't treat the population in the same way your lot did.
Your support for Unionist bigotry is no less disgusting than is your support for the Slave States
The last thing Ireland needs now is the bigoted views of an ignorant and antagonistic Englishman - please don't try to tell me that someone who describes Irish children as "brainwashed to hate Britain" isn't a raving bigot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 08:22 AM

Fascinating development has just been announced in the Six Counties
The three opposing parties on Brexit, all of whom wish to retain links with Europe, now have a clear majority
The D.U.P., having done a deal with Tessa the Tossa in order to get her through the negotiations, are now in the minority.
Shape of things to come??
Incidentally Keith, the Tory spokesman has said that no deal can be done on the border unless two other conditions are met first - that's how genuine your/Two-Gun Tessie's promises of an open border are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 09:07 AM

You resort to lying about me again Jim.
Your support for Unionist bigotry is no less disgusting than is your support for the Slave States

I never have and never would support either, liar.
Why don't you quote me, liar?
Because it is just more of the lies you resort to telling when you have no reply to what I actually say, liar.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 09:10 AM

Childish in the extreme, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 09:14 AM

It is not childish to object to lies being told against you.

I do think it wrong to mock someone's faith instead of discussing the actual issues.

Your behaviour drives decent folk away from this forum, but it is completely wasted on me.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 09:17 AM

Steve,
"You would force them at gun point if you could."
Brainless.

Not brainless, but the actual truth.
Jim has argued more than once that the British Army should have taken on the Unionists instead of partitioning Ireland.
(The Army refused to do it.)

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 09:22 AM

Ah, but your point wasn't about "the unionists," was it?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 09:32 AM

You have always supported Orange bigotry (sectarian marches="pleasant days out) - now you are equating the Amertican Civil war with heroic struggle and suggesting that English counties leaving the UK would be permissable
No lies there Keith
You are lying when you say I have not replied to you - you choose to ignore what has been said, that doesn't mean it hasn't been said
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 12:43 PM

'In a few years there will be a Catholic majority in the North East - we can only hope they don't treat the population in the same way your lot did.'

And let's hope Dublin treats its new citizens better than it treated their own citizens. Denying them basic human rights like birth control and divorce, putting education into the the hands of a paedophile sect.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 01:09 PM

"Denying them basic human rights like birth control and divorce, putting education into the the hands of a paedophile sect."
Peadophils operate throughout the Church - north and south Al - and both sides of the border
It now transpires that it is not just a "Catholic" problem but one common to all denominations - only the North has not got around to looking into theirs yet.
As for family matters, the North refuses to recognise pregnancy termination or same sex marriage
Not an excuse, but plebe don't confuse church matters with the politics that has created an unequal society for Catholics - voting, property ownership, work boycotts - for nigh on a century, which is what I was referring to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 01:24 PM

Steve,
Ah, but your point wasn't about "the unionists," was it?

Ah, but it was.

Jim,
You have always supported Orange bigotry

I never have. You should not equate the parades with bigotry. When they are an excuse for it I join you in condemnation, but overwhelmingly they are not.

now you are equating the Amertican Civil war with heroic struggle

There was much heroism by the soldiers of both sides Jim.

suggesting that English counties leaving the UK would be permissable

Unrealistic, but permissible. It only arises where there is a distinct and different culture.
N.I., Scotland, Wales and Cornwall are such places, and a majority of 1% is all that is needed.

Your support for Unionist bigotry is no less disgusting than is your support for the Slave States

Blatant lies. I never have and never would support either.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 01:41 PM

You can't lie to me, Keith. When will you ever learn. You said:

"Not true. The people have spoken enough times on this. The majority do not want to be ruled from Dublin and would resist it.
You would force them at gun point if you could."

The people, Keith, is what you said. Not a dickie bird about "unionists." When the people of Northern Ireland "speak," they don't need to have qualified as unionists first. You speak carelessly then you deny it. Very Wheatcroftesque of you. I find your approach to be vulgar (it was a silly thing to say anyway) and fraudulent (because you lied).

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 02:52 PM

"I never have. You should not equate the parades with bigotry."
What!!!!!!!
"When they are an excuse for it I join you in condemnation, "
On the contrary - you excused them as I just described
You have never at any toime condemned them - and now you are excusing them further saying thay are not about bigotry
I grew up with the sound of "fuck the Pope" and "Eee ay - Paddy is a bastard" ringing in my ears from those bigots - and dodging the bottles
"Unrealistic, but permissible"
Insane gibberish - there wouldn't be a definable country on the planet if it was possible to vote bits of it away
Maybe on the Planet Zog, where you apparently reside
"N.I., Scotland, Wales and Cornwall are such places, and a majority of 1% is all that is needed.
"
You have argued this before and have nevet made this stapulation
The last time, it was in response to my putting up the Southern Counties - now of which, with the possible exception of Carnwall
You described the Southern States as heroes fighting for freedom and you defend the statutes commemorating a war to maintain slavery - 'nuff for me
Mad as a bag of rats
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 06:03 AM

Steve, I do not lie.
The people, Keith, is what you said. Not a dickie bird about "unionists

The Unionists are the majority in NI.
They are called that because they overwhelmingly demand to remain part of the Union.

So my statement, " The people have spoken enough times on this. The majority do not want to be ruled from Dublin and would resist it." was totally accurate.

Jim has argued that they be forced to join the Republic by armed force.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 06:12 AM

Wrong again professor.




Demographics of Northern Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 06:14 AM

Jim, here is a BBC report on the 2014 Orangefest.
No problems then or since.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28266902

"Tens of thousands of Orangemen and women have taken part in 12 July celebrations across Northern Ireland."

"Thousands of people have also attended flagship parades in Markethill, Larne and Limavady.

Chief Constable George Hamilton said: "I am pleased that today's Twelfth parades have passed off largely successfully and that those taking part were able to enjoy their day."

2016 BBC
"'Celebration'
First Minister Arlene Foster attended the demonstration in Maguiresbridge and watched her children parade.
"This really is about celebration, it's about doing things in a way that we've done so for generations," she said.
"I always think of the Twelfth when I used to get two sandwiches in a plastic bag and a bun and that is still going on today but it is good fun and we really enjoy ourselves every year." "

Wiki,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parades_in_Northern_Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 06:16 AM

Rag, please quote anything in your link that says I am wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 06:17 AM

Read it yourself, that's what I posted it for.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 06:18 AM

true enough Jim. But you can always try to do something about your own faults. Its more problematic getting the other bloke to see he's got faults and he needs to do something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 06:30 AM

"The Unionists are the majority in NI. "
No longer Keith - the Unionist POLITICIANS have he an overall majority since independence - that is no longer the case
The actual Unionists - who actively subscribe to Unionist Parties are, and have always been a small minority of the people as a whole
" The majority do not want to be ruled from Dublin and would resist it."
There has never been a referendum as to whether people would "resist" unification if it ever came about
Do you have any proof of this statement?
The necessity of a change by referendum was only introduced in the late 1980s, in fact there have only been 2 referendums on Unity - in 1973 and 1998, the first gave a 98% majority, the second, nearly 20 yeas ago reduced that majority to 71%
Given the shift in population proportions, Brexit and political corruption by the DUP, it is possible that any present referendum would give a majority to leave.   
Some actual Unionists may resist, but nobody else would
And - as I said - the DUP is now a minority party and could be voted out of office by the three combined parties tht oppose leaving Europe - perhaps it should bung the UK £billion for its support !!
Now - where did this "resistance" come from, or is it yet another of your makkie-ups?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 06:31 AM

"would give a majority to leave."
Should read -"unite" of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 06:55 AM

Jim, I said the majority was dwindling and in recent months may have gone.
There is still no majority for a United Ireland in either the North or the South.

Wiki,
"In demographic terms, the six counties of Northern Ireland taken as a whole contain a majority of Ulster Protestants[5] who almost all favour continued union with Great Britain."
"Surveys identify a significant number of Catholics who favour the continuation of the union without identifying themselves as Unionists or British.[8]"

"Opinion polls of the Northern Ireland population have consistently shown majorities opposed to a United Ireland and in support of Northern Ireland remaining part of the United Kingdom. For example, in a November 2015 survey RTÉ and the BBC, 30% of the population expressed support for a United Ireland in their lifetime"
"The 2013 annual Northern Ireland Life and Times survey conducted by the Queen's University Belfast and Ulster University found that a united Ireland was the favoured long term option of 15% of the population while remaining part of the United Kingdom was the favoured long term option of 66% of the population.[38] When the same survey was carried out in 2015, support was 22%"

"A 2011 survey by Northern Ireland Life and Times found that 52% of Northern Irish Catholic respondents favoured union with Great Britain over a united Ireland."

"In October 2015 an opinion poll commissioned by RTÉ and the BBC and carried out by Behaviour & Attitudes asked those in the Republic of Ireland" 36% wanted United Ireland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#Public_opinion

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 07:32 AM

"There is still no majority for a United Ireland in either the North or the South."
So what Keith?
Apart from the two referenda, all votes in Northern Ireland have been economic ones - The Northern Counties were wealthier and employment was not a major problem - until now
In the South, a poll carried out over a year ago indicated that 65% of the population would vote for a United Ireland
Given the changing circumstances since then, the effects that Brexit is already having on the Republic, the detrimental effects that it has brought to Irish people living in Britain, and the likelihood of a hard border, there is little doubt that there would be a landslide victory for a United Ireland
Add to this, the pride shown by the Irish people in the 1916 commemorations and the forthcoming anniversaries of the War of Independence, the fight against the Tans and the treaty, it will be surprising if a United Ireland does not become a major issue in its own right, economics aside.
Partition has always been a grotesque British solution to the problems of Imperialism - in Ireland, it has filled body bags since it was introduced
It really is time it was ended before we end up with a hard border, a maimed economy like Britain's and yet more bloodshed
Ireland is Ireland and the Irish people have always recognised that fact
It is only the self-interested religious nutters who have ever claimed otherwise
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 07:45 AM

FOR REUNIFICATION
WHAT THE POLITICIANS SAID
STALEMATE
Jim Carroll