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New Book: Folk Song in England

Steve Gardham 23 Jul 18 - 10:39 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jul 18 - 08:28 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jul 18 - 08:07 AM
Steve Gardham 22 Jul 18 - 11:17 AM
Steve Gardham 22 Jul 18 - 11:15 AM
Steve Gardham 22 Jul 18 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 22 Jul 18 - 07:20 AM
Joe Offer 21 Jul 18 - 10:11 PM
Jeri 21 Jul 18 - 09:24 AM
Jack Campin 21 Jul 18 - 07:56 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Jul 18 - 07:14 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Jul 18 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,Mike Yates 20 Jul 18 - 12:39 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 12:26 PM
Jack Campin 20 Jul 18 - 12:23 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Jul 18 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Jul 18 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 08:55 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Jul 18 - 08:45 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Jul 18 - 08:27 AM
Brian Peters 20 Jul 18 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Jul 18 - 07:40 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 20 Jul 18 - 07:29 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 04:49 AM
The Sandman 20 Jul 18 - 04:40 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 03:08 AM
The Sandman 20 Jul 18 - 01:40 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 18 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Jul 18 - 06:49 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 06:27 PM
Jack Campin 19 Jul 18 - 05:18 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 03:31 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 03:10 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 18 - 02:54 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 02:39 PM
Jack Campin 19 Jul 18 - 02:27 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 02:09 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 18 - 01:17 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 01:13 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 12:58 PM
Richard Mellish 19 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 18 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Jul 18 - 10:29 AM
Vic Smith 19 Jul 18 - 09:05 AM
Vic Smith 19 Jul 18 - 09:01 AM
Vic Smith 19 Jul 18 - 08:58 AM
Steve Gardham 19 Jul 18 - 08:55 AM
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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:39 AM

Tzu
Now the thread is being closely monitored it would be a good time to discuss any points you want to raise about the book.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 09:56 AM

I have just come back from the Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend (just north of Sheffield, ) a really enjoyable weekend of song and tune sessions and some fine presentations. The finest and most interesting as far as I was concerned was The Fragrance of Country Melody - Irene Shettle's presentation, the result of exhaustive research into the life and work of Lucy Broadwood.
My ears really pricked up when she quote from a letter of Lucy's saying that of the 420 songs that she knew to be in the repertoire of the great Henry Burstow of Horsham - her major informant - that 75% of them could not be regarded as folk songs by her strict definition.
Irene has promided to sent me a copy of her script an when I receive it, I will post the actual words that Lucy wrote.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:28 AM

I would agree with you if you didn't describe past arguments as grievances" Vic
I don't think anybody on either side has raised them (beyond this subject, I don't believe anybody even has them)
Past arguments are a different matter - when they are ignored they are bound to be "re-hashed"
I decided to stay clear of this to allow others to have their say, but I fully intend to go over old ground until I am satisfied it has been dealt with satisfactory - it would be a betrayal of everything I believe to do otherwise
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:07 AM

For this post to be closed permanently because of a few barbed and personal comments would be a travesty. Please can we discuss matters in a reasonable way without lowering the standards of the debate. We can oppose one another with reasoned argument and by backing our comments with evidence without recourse to denigrating others or the constant re-hashing of supposed past grievances.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 11:17 AM

BTW I'm about halfway through Gerould and have found very little to argue with so far. Thanks for the reminder, Tzu.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 11:15 AM

1500 at second time of asking. must be a record!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 11:15 AM

Tzu,
I'm very relieved to see you here! New contributors of your calibre are very welcome. I also welcome the yellow card and will endeavour not to be drawn.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 07:20 AM

Just to point out, if I may, that a set of posts on this thread that finally led to my walking away seems to have been deleted. The moderator comments sum up the character of these deleted posts well IMO. This is not, by any means, a complaint about the deletion. I just wanted to clarify events for anyone reading the thread later. I didn't leave immediately after Steve Gardham's sensible post of 4.54, and I wouldn't want people thinking that particular post was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Tzu


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 10:11 PM

Jeri closed this thread for the day to let things cool down. I'll reopen it, but please remember that there is a yellow card on this thread. We're watching it. There's a lot of good discussion here and I'm learning a lot - but there's also a lot here that is bothersome.
Keep the animosity down, please.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 09:24 AM

How people can argue for nearly a year, because someone announced a book was published probably just lets folks know what sort of a place this is. IMO, there HAVE been good points raised, but mostly not about the book.

When you get to the point where you completely drop the subject, in favor of going after other posters, you're going to get the thread closed.

As this is about music, I'd rather that didn't happen.
I'm closing this for a day or so in the hopes that the people who need to make personal or meta comments think about it, and find something positive to post somewhere.
Sorry, Brian.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 07:56 AM

Tzu/Pseudonymous - please try again. You have something to say, and most Mudcat threads don't get eaten by obsessional grumps in the way this one has been.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 07:14 AM

Goodbye. All this has put me off. Maybe back some time. Maybe not.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:54 PM

Let's lay this to rest please. It cannot be denied that Bert was very knowledgeable on a wide range of subjects. From a very early age he spent many hours in libraries reading about history, literature and politics and for a while took part in whaling and the Australian outback.
He was also a respected journalist working with the BBC and Picture Post before they decided they didn't like his political stance.

The only quibble that we have with Bert's scholarship is that he didn't make clear the boundaries between his creative abilities and his scholarship, and when it comes to folk music this casts doubts on his scholarship. The ultimate effect of this is that whenever we come across a song that has passed through Bert's hands or a pronouncement he makes on the history of folksong we have to go back and find more reliable sources to verify what he has written.

Exactly the same principle applies to the published works of Percy, Scott, Pinkerton, Jamieson, Buchan, etc., yes, and even the highly acclaimed Motherwell.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 12:39 PM

"I don't believe Bert was a 'fine scholar'" - No? Clearly spoken by somebody who never heard Bert talk about Bartok or Eastern folk music in general, as I often did. Then there was his ballad lecture at the first Loughborough Festival in the '60's. Yes, Bert did mix up song texts (when he was wearing his singer hat) and probably made up a few tunes when he could not find one, but he was probably the most knowledgeable person during that period. For once I find myself fully agreeing with Jim when he says "Which is why I find all this smugness of hindsight as sickening as I do".


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 12:26 PM

I don't believe Bert was a 'fine scholar'
He was a pioneer whose energies and generosity gave the British revival a kick-start, along with a handful of other talented and generous people - MacColl and Seeger included (also the target of much abuse)
Bert was limited by his inexperience and the fact tha all these people were treading new ground
Without the likes of them, we wouldn't be talking to each other and many of us wouldn't have spent a lifetime of enjoyment and interest in these songs
Which is why I find all this smugness of hindsight as sickening as I do
Lloyd and his ilk did more for British folk song than any who followed them, including the present generation of knockers.
As a young lady once told me when I found myself 'batting out of my league' with her, "Come back when you have hair on your chest"   

"Carroll"
Why do you people have to degenerate this to a demeaning level when you can't get your way
Neither an admirable nor a particularly adult trait "Johnson'
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 12:23 PM

Second hand prices for Fakesong are a bit less than that but not by much. Use this URL to track it:

http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/RefineRare.fcgi?id=180720092205915297


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 12:10 PM

"Keep digging, Jim."
I'm not digging Steve, I don't have to - you have done that far better than I ever could
If I have misjudged your part in the book I apologies to both of you - not a nice mistake to make
You have not produced a singe instance of my misrepresenting you, not have you responded to my points about your denigrating other researchers
Your silence in an adequate confirmation

"Jim actually do some research yourself and actually check it out"
Check what out Theresa?
I've spent over 50 years being actively involved in folk song, first as a listener and singer, then as a collector and researcher, mainly interviewing the people who gave us these songs (that latter has accounted for thirty odd years of my life so far)
I've written articles, sleeve notes and reviews and my wife and I have given around forty talks on the subject (to date)
We now have around a dozen radio programmes on our work under our belt THIS THREE PART SERIES is porobaly the on we are most proud of.

Our work is to be found on around a dozen albums, and is housed in the British Library. The Irish Traditional Music Archive and The Irish Folklore Association and several hundred of our field recordings are publicly accessible on the CLARE COUNTY LIBRARY WEBSITE
I'm now involved in preparing a book of Irish Travellers songs, stories and interviews and an introduction pack for enthusiast new to Irish Child Ballads (see Child Ballads in Ireland thread)
The big work at present is to prepare our collection and a large international archive of traditional recordings to be deposited in Limerick University where our library will be bequeathed for research purposes (embarrassingly under the title 'The Carroll/Mackenzie Library'

IS THAT ENOUGH RESEARCH FOR YOU?

Sorry 'bout that, couldn't resist
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 11:32 AM

2nd hand Harker now over a hundred quid :( Interlibrary loan, then.

From a review (unfavourable overall) of Boyce and Harker by E David Gregory. Like *Roud*, Gregory finds bit of Harker less objectionable than others. It may be one can reasonably view Harker as an "excellent scholar" without rubbishing his whole oeuvre including Fakesong. I don't know enough of course to judge but people I would respect (including Gammon) appear to have taken this approach. And others I respect not of course. I quote:

"Let us begin by giving Dave Harker his due. .
?an important and innovative book that provides useful insights into the history and business of music publishing. Harker correctly pointed out that folksong and ballad collecting was a task undertaken mainly by middle-class intellectuals. His claim that vernacular song collecting has usually involved a relationship between different classes of society is unassailable. Moreover, some song collectors were avaricious, others were fraudulent, and I would by no means attempt to defend every single one of them from his charges.

For example, we should recognise that Tom D'Urfey's motive in assembling Pills to Purge Melancholy was primarily financial, and he seems to have readily "borrowed" songs from any source he could. Much the same could be said about A Collection of Old Ballads and its anonymous author. Thomas Percy undoubtedly created quite a few fakesongs when in the first edition of his Reliques he published his own rewrites of ballads as if they were the texts to be found in the famous folio manuscript. Frederick Sheldon seems to have shared Percy's perspective on the legitimacy of "polishing" texts and then still claiming them to be authentic "originals.” Several of the Scottish Romantics (including, at least initially, Sir Walter Scott) did the same, with Pinkerton the worst offender. As a result, a small number of ballads that were wholly or largely the creations of enthusiastic imitators were passed off as authentic creations of the "folk", although these were usually exposed sooner or later."

* Trying to keep on topic however vaguely*

Noting that Percy was much relied upon by Child {this being one of the firts things u learn as a beginner, in addition to how to survive under online crossfire :) }.

There was a good joke about Keats on another thread here. Colonel tells Sargeant Major to get troops together for a lecture on Keats. SM says to troops 'Now, you orrible lot. It has been brought to the Colonel's attention that some of you don't know what a Keats is'.


Just tring to lighten the tone before we get another yellow card.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 10:39 AM

Duly admonished I intend to read Harker, though I repeat while Roud does 'rubbish' him, he does several times refer to/rely on his scholarship. So not a wholesale dismissal of absolutel everything about Harker.

I note that Vic Gammon somewhere did express some sympathy with aspects of what Harker says.

Here's an interesting review (found while googling for cheap 2nd hand copies).

Review of Harker


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 08:55 AM

"Come on now gents, does a light-hearted (and actually rather interesting) remark about Child's horticultural hobby really need to fuel further confrontation?"
Not on its own but in the context of attitude to past scholars and that scholarship being used as ninepins it gives the lighthearted remark' a bit of context

Regarding my comments about Harkerism - I was referring on that occasion to Steve Gardham whose scholarly corpses are piling up by the minute, but if we are to take Roud's re-definition seriously, the same applies to him
The old crowd worked on the basis of perceived truths regarding the origins and uniqueness of folk song - Roud's book turns that on its head, in effect, undermining most of what has been written and acted on over the last century or so
Not as clumsily open as Steve Gardham, but in essence ending up in the same place

It has become apparent that much of Roud's book is based on Steve Gardham's work
Gardam recommends Harker as an excellent scholar
It seems to my that if they wish to be considered seperately, one of them needs a very long spoon

All this stands to throw folk scholarship into the same sort of chaos as the abandoning of folk song identification did the club scene
Some of our best thinkers came from the revival - Bert, Ewan, Bob Thomson, Roy Palmer, Tom Munnelly, Peter Hall, Vic Gammon... the eyes moisten when
I think of the debt I and many others owe to their input into our lives
They helped us drag together the enjoyment as singers and listeners and the understanding of the art form we were involved in
I honestly can't see that continuing to happen for those who follow is - I am seriously beginning to wonder if anybody will
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 08:45 AM

>>>>>Giving what Child did and where and when he was - I'll take my chances with him if it's OK with you<<<<<


Or you could actually do some research yourself and actually check it out!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 08:27 AM

The main problem with 'Fakesong' was that Dave rather went over the top, particularly with his political approach, BUT a lot of what he suggested makes sense. Nothing is ever so black and white as one person here seems to think.

As I have stated many many times on these threads my admiration for Child is almost boundless. I don't need to say any more than that. Those who know me know that is true. The problem with the romantic approach is that people like Child are treated as gods and they can do no wrong, a stupid approach to any historical research.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:44 AM

Come on now gents, does a light-hearted (and actually rather interesting) remark about Child's horticultural hobby really need to fuel further confrontation?

Harkerism gone mad

I can't let that one go. Harker attempted to tear down everything, particularly the work of all the collectors. Roud is building on their work and pointing out its shortcomings where necessary - and as we've discussed he is dismissive of Harker.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:40 AM

AAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!

Of course I meant 'far left'. Chees what a typo :(


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:37 AM

"To me 'New Age' maybe means not factual, not based on reason or logic,"
Not necessarily - certainly not in this case
It means a break with the old scholarship

If harker had confined his attacks to MacColl and Lloyd he would have been among many - it was his attack on the whole basis of folk scholarship, taking out all the collectors one by one, that caused the animosity
He even refused to speak in public because of the response he got

He seems to be a new-found Messiah with some people
If you haven't read 'Fakelore', I suggest you do
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:29 AM

I quite enjoyed the hyperbolic 'as old as time itself' (19th Jul: 2.54).

On the ghost of Hamlet's father: I pricked up my ears at this point remembering a Melvyn Bragg In Our Time radio programme about Shakespeare's Hamlet I listened to on the BBC iPlayer ap. So I went to Wiki to check what I remembered.

Shakespeare's play sees especially relevant as it was based on a Danish story about Amleth. This was set down in writing by a medieval Danish character called Saxo Grammaticus (c1160 - 1220), who was secretary to the Archbishop of Lund, Denmark's church being Latin at this time. Saxo seems to have well educated. This was a period of Danish expansion and also a time when 'Wends', a historical name for Slavic people living within or near Germanic settlement areas. (I believe that the term Wend crops up in Child?)

Saxo wrote "Gesta Danorum", an early history of the Danes. Saxo said it was modelled on Virgil, though wiki suggests others may have influenced Saxo incuding Geoffrey of Monmouth.

A sixteenth century French scholar retold/translated the story, which is believed to be how it came to Shakespeare. Shakespeare is also believed to have written an earlier version of Hamlet.

I mention this because it is an interesting example of how stories or legends from Denmark got themselves into English culture. In this case it seems reasonable to believe that translation by highly literate middle classes was responsible. And as we know, people of all ranks went to the Elizabethan theatre.

To me 'New Age' maybe means not factual, not based on reason or logic, which isn't what people reading 20th century works on folksong are about. It's about medicine made from herbs, and from mainly water with untraceably diluted bits of stuff in them, and not from properly trialled medicines. But maybe it means 'postmodern' in the sense of not involved with or following 'grand narratives' such as the ones that are told about/invoke folklore?

For me, it seems reasonable to disagree with some of what Harker said while accepting that other aspects of his work were good: this seems to be the approach of Roud, as I said last time we went round this circle.

I am guessing that Harker may have been less that respectful of MacColl and Lloyd, seeing them as old 'Stalisists' or some such, and that this is partly why he is so disliked in some quarters, though it won't be the only reason as Roud's comments show. Roud seems at one point to lump all the far right together.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:49 AM

" I am aware of your interpretation because of your aggressive response to Steve."
Just as I am aware of Steve's aggressive remarks to Child - a fellow researcher - and not the first
New Age Scholarship appears to be based on destroying much of what has gone before - not a thing I would wish to be associated with, even if I agreed with it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:40 AM

I do not need your blessing to see a remark as less than hostile, I am aware of your interpretation because of your aggressive response to Steve.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 03:08 AM

"my impression is that it was a throwaway remark"
Not my interpretation Dick but feel free to believe that if you wish
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 01:40 AM

"After his family his first love was cultivating roses."
So now he knew more about gardening and washing up than he did about ballads./'
Jim, that is your interpretation of what steve is saying ,at no point did he say that ,my impression is that it was a throwaway remark which gave us a little information about his other interests. you chose to take a defensive attitude and iterpret it as a hostile attack on his knowledge of ballads


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 08:07 PM

"If Child got everything right he'd be St Francis of Boston by now!"
The same applies to you Steve
Giving what Child did and where and when he was - I'll take my chances with him if it's OK with you
You have just said - hand on heart, that you are referring to songs of the latter half of the 19th century yet there you go laying the law down about a well established 18th century full of folklore to be found in both songs and tales throughout the world and predating Hamlet's father's Ghost, at the very least
'Lip service' seems to have it about right
One of the most disturbing things about your New Age theories is that they can only be accepted if we forget everything we know (or thought we knew)
This is little more than cultural bookburning- Harkerism gone mad - no wonder you described him as a great scholar

"After his family his first love was cultivating roses."
So now he knew more about gardening and washing up than he did about ballads
Betterer and betterer
This is really "Top of the world ma" stuff Steve - I assume your friend take the same attitude as you do - you once offered me a list of references - please do - I'll need to look out for them
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 06:49 PM

Nothing in fact is more obvious than many of the ballads of the now most refined nations had their origin in that class whose acts and furtunes they depict - the upper class - though the growth of civilisation has driven them from the memory of the highly polished and instructed,and has left them as an exclusive possession to the uneducated.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 06:27 PM

Thanks, Jack
Found it. I actually contributed to the thread. The theme is the same but there the similarities end. One would need a lot more to conclude that the 2 pieces were even remotely related.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 05:18 PM

Steve - this comes from my iPhone on a bus, searching is difficult - googling "cruel mother Iceland" with site mudcat.org should find you what I posted.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 03:31 PM

After his family his first love was cultivating roses.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 03:10 PM

Tut tut! OTT responses again! If Child got everything right he'd be St Francis of Boston by now!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:54 PM

"Can you put any meat on the bones of this one, Jim? Child 20 is an English broadside of the 17th century. "
Sigh
It was a song that appeared on an English broadside in th 17th century, do you mean
The motifs of murdered people returning to extract vengeance or announce retribution are as old as time itself - in folklore and oral narrative tradition.
Same goes for abandoned children   
I won't bother to ask if you have evidence of there being no oral versions befre the broadside

I told the story as I remember having experienced - we had not tape recorder but one of the people who conducted us did
Sandra chose the song from her own experience and the translator related the plot
Surely, if all foreign input is due to literary influences it might be on line somewhere!

THere is a definitivness about your statements which suggest that it would take a ton of Semtex to shift you from your position
I did enjoy the back-heeling of Child (again) though
I wonder why he wasted all that time - he should have stuck to songwriting - his effort on Civil War politics suggested that he was quite good at that!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:39 PM

Any details on this, Jack? How old it is. Is it related to 20 or 21 or both? Is it derived from British versions?


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:27 PM

I posted a link to an Icelandic version a couple of years ago.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:09 PM

We appear to have hit baseline again so here's a little diversion.

>>>>>>I remember Sandra asking her (through a translator) if she knew "the one about the woman who murdered her two babies" - she sang us a haunting Hungarian 'Cruel Mother'<<<<<<19th July 4.11 AM

Can you put any meat on the bones of this one, Jim? Child 20 is an English broadside of the 17th century. Child's headnotes on this one are completely to pot (IMO). There are no known analogies in other countries that are not based on the English ballad. If you have discovered a Hungarian variant that is earth-shattering. I will have to consult Andy Rouse who is a scholar of Hungarian ballads. Child didn't know about the broadside until after he published Part 1, and his headnotes are based on the 'penance' stanzas tagged on the end of Scottish versions which actually belong to Child 21 'The Maid and the Palmer'.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 01:17 PM

Richard
And still people leap to their feet (you included) and dispute the idea that the folk probably didn't make their songs - you are not alone of course
Someone put up proudly a rave review of Roud's book which took pleasure in stating that the folk didn't make folk songs'
The damage hads been done, inside and outside the folk circle

Child was working in the middle of the 19th century yet his conclusions have been called into question - so much for the latter half of the 19th century
There has been a great deal of admitting that working people WERE CAPABLE OF MAKING SONGS but 90%= claims make them litle more than lip service
Basing folk creation on its death throes of a tradition is like estimating the skills of a top athlete after having his legs removed - totally meaningless

"Not again, again, again, again...…………..!"
'Fraid so Steve - this will run and run - longer than Mousetrap until me move away from "workers too busy earning a living to make songs" and start proving that they didn't make the songs they were singing - even within your timeline
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 01:13 PM

We occasionally come across versions in print (street lit and sheet music) that have obviously come from oral tradition or have been influenced by oral tradition, but these are not common.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:58 PM

Not again, again, again, again...…………..!

Absolutely, the 90% includes many examples from an earlier period than the early 19thc. We've given plenty on this very thread. The broadside still remains the earliest extant example even in these cases.

This must have now been said numerous times by many on this thread and others similar. NO-ONE has claimed at any point that country people were incapable of making their own songs or indeed that they didn't make their own songs. On the contrary I have given you plenty of examples from my own experiences. All we have said is that not having easy access to the printers their efforts by and large were not widespread around the country and stayed in their own backyard. Simple logic can tell you this. This is why relatively few of their productions made it into the national corpus.

Your last statement no-one can argue with. Most of the evidence is circumstantial and your opinion is perfectly valid, based upon little research into the other printed material however.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 11:58 AM

Jim >You should have made that clear from day one instead of adapting it only when you were challenged <

Steve > I have always endeavoured to make clear exactly which corpus I was writing about. If I did not do that in the very first thread we crossed swords on I apologise once again, but on numerous threads since then where you have criticised our stance we have made this very clear and will continue to do so. <

Hear hear!


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 10:36 AM

"but your constant misquoting and gross exaggeration make this very difficult."
I've asked you to provide examples of this several times Steve
So far nothing has been offered
"I have always endeavoured to make clear exactly which corpus I was writing about. "
This is a prime example
Am I mistaken in believing what it was following my quoting MacColl's 'Song Carriers' summing up that you made you "starry eyed - and "for money" dismissive statement?
Your present claims adaptation followed.

Even that don't make real sense anyway - many of the songs collected in that period were made far earlier than the 19th century so I have presumed that your 90% + includes them
If it does, you are casting doubts on the idea that country people ever made songs to a significant degree

Back to the old truism I'm afraid - we don't know who made our folk songs for certain and until you can produce unchallengeable evidence that there were no oral versions of the printed songs we never will
Jim


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 10:29 AM

Jim: thanks for the info about MacColl's Radio Ballads. I am just beginning to 'understand' various debates about MacColl. I assume 'Freud' is a typo for 'Roud'?

I'm not clear, sorry, what you are referring back to in your comment:

"Child's ability to distinguish between his work on formal poetry and traditional ballads is a new one on me".


As far as I know, Child's work on Chaucer was, in line with 'English' as mostly taught at that time, relating to the language eg verb forms, plurals, whether a word was considered 'vulgar' or was higher in rank, perhaps with some consideration of metre. He didn't seem to have been much interested in Chaucer's social criticism, his poetic techniques, etc. I might have missed some other work on these areas, not sure. I have found him referred to as very influential in Chaucer studies but neither of the books I have on Canterbury Tales mentions him at all. He published an edition of some 16thc plays. He seems to have spent a lot of time teaching composition and marking student essays.

I don't mind a bit of hyperbole now and again.

Steve: on defining the corpus, I quoted Roud on this in an attempt to suggest that Roud was clear about this, which I think he was.

Mr Sandman: This was an interesting post. It might, I think, illustrate that thinking about what counted as 'folk' or apt for study was not as monolithic as one might imagine. I checked and found that Roud cites two books by Alfred Williams. (attempting to bring thread back to its supposed topic).


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 09:05 AM

Fascinating important stuff and the sort of thing that we are trying to provide for our county through the database at Sussex Traditions but whilst ours is being achieved by volunteers like Tina and myself, it really should come underthe cultural remit of our two county councils. just as is happening in Wiltshire.


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 09:01 AM

Whoops - pressed Submit message too soon :-
https://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/community/folk_search.php


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 08:58 AM

Dick,
This is a fascinating and useful addition to the thread, but when you are taking a huge extract from a website, you really need to give the details of (and preferably, a link to) the source - so I will do this for you. :-
http://www.alfredwilliams.org.uk/folkhero.html

Also the final line says Click here to go to the beginning of the list. and it is very frustrating that there is no link, so again, I will provide this -


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Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 08:55 AM

>>>>>You should have made that clear from day one instead of adapting it only when you were challenged<<<<<

I have always endeavoured to make clear exactly which corpus I was writing about. If I did not do that in the very first thread we crossed swords on I apologise once again, but on numerous threads since then where you have criticised our stance we have made this very clear and will continue to do so.

There never was and never will be a SWEEPING condemnation of MacColl's writing from me. I have great respect for his work and Bert's. I was specifically referring to MacColl's suggestion that the songs were written by ploughboys and milkmaids. In my OPINION a very romantic way of approaching the material.

>>>a moribund tradition<<<< Those are your words, certainly not mine. Were all of Walter's songs then part of a moribund tradition?

>>>>>>but the whole history of folk song scholarship had become a target for dismissal and mistrust<<<<<

This is a gross exaggeration and I very much doubt you would get anyone to agree with you on this.


Jim, I/we would love to engage with you and discuss our researches in more detail, but your constant misquoting and gross exaggeration make this very difficult.


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