New Book: Folk Song in England

Subject: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:02 AM

On Thursday I attended the British Library launch for the new book 'Folk Song in England', by Steve Roud and Julia Bishop, which has just been published by Faber. It runs to 764 pages, and is the nearest thing we're ever likely to get to a definitive study. I must confess I've nowhere near finished it yet, but I dipped in to several sections on the train back to Stockport, and it's certainly fascinating and well-researched, and should be of interest to a lot of people on here. In the light of some fairly familiar arguments that have just resurfaced on the current 'EFDSS' thread, I should mention that the introductory chapter, 'Is there such a thing as folk song, anyway?' includes a pretty firm endorsement of our old friend, the 1954 definition. And that comes from a scholar who has looked at all the evidence, not just taken Cecil Sharp's word for it.

I don't think the choice of title is an accident. What we have here is solid research that supersedes the romantic fantasies of Bert Lloyd - although to be fair, Bert's book does get a fair hearing. I also have to say that the 'Fakesong' school gets pretty short shrift. You should read this!

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 10:35 AM

A must-read and a great companion to "The New Penguin Book of English Folksongs." Or any other!

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: JHW
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 04:40 PM

Must have one. Faber shop

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 07:02 PM

Oh, gee. Another book I can't do without. Good thing I just got a huge bookcase for my birthday this week. I got my copy at amazon.mudcat.org for $29.95 U.S. U.S. release date isn't until Sept 5, but they gave me a Kindle advance copy of the first chapter or so.
Thanks for the tip, Brian.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 04:28 AM

Introductions read. Very accessible from the man who knows most what it's all about. More anon. Brilliant so far!!!!!

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 07:57 AM

Just ordered min from The Book Depository at a pretty good discount price - and post free (important for books of this size)
Thought I'd pass that on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 08:25 AM

That should be "mine" not "min" - who was, of course, a character in The Goon Show!
Have I missed something - are there any of the Hammond Gardner collections available yet?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 08:38 AM

Jim, all of Purslow's selections from Hammond & Gardiner are now available. 'Marrow Bones' and 'The Wanton Seed' came out some time ago, and the final two volumes have just been republished as
Southern Harvest, with a lot of additional information thanks to Steve Gardham.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 17 - 08:57 AM

Thanks Brian
Damn - just too late for my birthday
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Elmore
Date: 21 Aug 17 - 03:39 PM

Was going to order it on Kindle, but changed my mind. I may want it for reference and Kindle wouldn't be useful in that case. Thanks to Brian for making us aware of this book which sounds both interesting and useful.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Anglo
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 12:04 AM

Patiently waiting for the US release (pre-ordered). Maybe you'll have your copy with you at TradMad, Brian. In any event, I look forward to seeing you there - there wouldn't be time to read it, anyway !

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 01:57 AM

Okay ! Spill the beans!

Bert Lloyd proved wrong! Shock horror!

Do you ever feel like your part of the Tooting Popular Front?

Composite 4 Subsection 3a! I move!

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 09:41 AM

Hi Anglo: I would have brought my copy to the US for reading material on the plane, but it was too big to fit in my hand luggage. Seriously.

Al, you'll just have to read it to find out. But I can safely say that the notion folk songs were composed by disconsolate ploughboys who sang their newly-minted laments for lost love to their mates in the pub, who then proceeded to spread them through the countryside, is one casualty of Steve Roud's evidence-based approach. Perhaps when I've read it all I'll attempt a precis on here.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 10:19 AM

Have just started reading the book. It certainly looks impressive. One thing that I note, though, is that there is no discography. Some readers, I suspect, who read names such as Harry Cox, Sam Larner or Walter Pardon and don't know that these great artists can be heard on CDs, would have been helped with some listings. But , at 764 fact-filled pages, I suppose that there just wasn't room!

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 04:20 PM

folksingers needed - only well adjusted ploughboys need apply

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 05:29 PM

Only just saw this thread, though I was at the launch and am now about a third of the way through the book. I wish Brian luck in trying to precis it: there's so much information of all kinds and I'm not yet perceiving a clear overview.

One point that Steve made at the launch is that the essential difference between his book and Bert's is that his is based on firm evidence. The chapters that I have read so far mostly set out the evidence rather than draw conclusions, but maybe those come later.

One point that Steve doesn't make explicitly in what I've read so far, though perhaps later, is that the songs that were being sung at any given time were of various ages but a lot of them fairly recent, at least in their current forms. Of all the songs that are being sung at date X, by a later date Y some will have fallen by the wayside and a some new ones will have entered circulation. Some have lasted for several centuries, but not really very many.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 04:19 AM

Oh wow, can I wait till Christmas? My daughters never know what to get me ....

Thanks for the heads-up, Brian.

Marje

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 08:23 AM

I wish they wouldn't keep repeating false info in books on English folk music.
For example, William Bolton was never a shantyman ( he was in the Royal Navy not the merchant navy ).

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 09:05 AM

Mike, re discography
I can't imagine anyone buying FSE who hasn't already got a copy of New Penguin which has a perfectly good discography.

Despite the length of this weighty tome in almost every chapter Steve goes to great pains to stress that evidence is very thin for previous centuries as you would expect with a subject that deals with the history of the common people. However he has obviously searched diligently for what evidence does exist and personally I can't see this amount of evidence ever being greatly added to or contradicted.

The evidence is clearly stated and leaves us largely to draw our own conclusions.

Re Bert Lloyd, I'm absolutely certain Steve wasn't motivated to write his book by Bert's fairy tales. There can't be many people left on the scene who don't take anything Bert wrote with a pinch of salt. This is not Bert bashing time. He was wonderfully gifted and left us a wealth of well-crafted material.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 03:19 AM

I'm about a third of the way through and, although I don't agree with everything here, you can't fault the research and scholarship.

What can be faulted is Faber giving us this paperback masquerading as a hardback. No wonder it's so cheap to buy; every corner has been cut in its production.

This is a serious contribution to knowledge and should be published as a proper hardback book: sewn sections; acid-free paper; and properly bound.

I fear it will fall apart if used frequently.

Harry

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 04:07 AM

My copy was £25 and certainly feels like a hard back.

I can't imagine criticising a publisher for putting out such a well presented book on a niche subject. How many of these will actually be sold? Into four figures, perhaps, if they are lucky.

Tell you what, Harry, you should contact Faber and tell them you'd like to do a "proper hardback" edition. See how many thousands upon thousands you'll lose.

I'm Too early in the reading to comment on the writing other than to say, all good so far.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 04:18 AM

"This is not Bert bashing time."
Then why do it Steve - whatever Bert's motives for working the way he did, I'm sure he didn't set out to write "fairy tales"
I only got 'Folk Song in England' when we returned home on Monday, so I haven't had time to start it yet, but I did look up some of the subjects I am familiar with - I was rather disturbed to read the inaccurate speculation on MacColl's name change and the tiresome revival gossip about his Scots 'reinvention'.
I was also disappointed to see no reference to 'The Song Carriers' surely the first and best intelligent attempt to discuss the British singing tradition intelligently - 14 half-hour programmes made in 1965 attempting to examine the singing styles of these islands seems a bit of an oversight to me - but that's me!
It seems to me that, while the serious side of the revival made a number of mistakes in how they presented the music they thought important enough to devote their lives to, their work is often severely misjudged because of the back-biting and petty rivalries that were part of the early revival.
This may be prejudging a book I have not yet read - we'll see!
Our own failure to get Walter Pardon's interviews out to a larger audience was underlined when I saw the only reference to him being his name on a list of other source singers that caught the wider attention of the folk scene.
One of the greatest holes in our knowledge of folk song is a total failure to ask our informants (in depth) what they thought about their songs
Walter had a great deal to say about what was and was not a folk song - and why - often in detail.
It's often struck me that discussing folk song without taking the view of our source singers into consideration is somewhat like putting a patient onto the operating table without asking them what's wrong with him/her
It's when I see people like Sharp and MacColl and Lloyd being pilloried for not getting it right first time around that I realise that folk song scholarship is still in its infancy as a serious art form study - pioneers make mistakes and their work needs to be regarded,font color=red>dispassionately and in full in context of their time and what they were setting out to achieve.
As it is, it is a virtual minefield to attempt to discuss MacColl (beyond the "Jimmy Miller - 'finger-in-ear stage), and as for "what is a folk song?".... !!!!
Unbelievable on a forum purporting to be devoted to folk song!
Can't wait to see how the authors have dealt with 'the broadside origin of folk song'
Jim Carroll
I wonder if anybody can throw any light on the reference to MacColl's name change to 'James Henry' as stated in F S in England?
I know his mother's name was 'Hendry' but I've never come across it and writings.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 06:51 AM

This may be prejudging a book I have not yet read - we'll see.
Do you think it possible that your prejudiced comments might carry more weight if you had waited until after you had read it before making them?
Would you consider that people reading this might be of the opinion that you come to come to the subject of English Folk Song with pre-formed, blinkered views rather than approaching it with an open mind?
Those of us who have had the opportunity of working extensively with Steve Roud are in awe of his extensive knowledge of the English tradition which he seems to have at his finger tips. He is also open minded and fair in his discussions and willing to give credence to the experience and opinions of others. He avoids speculation and bases his claiams only when he has well-researched backing for his statements.

I can think of no better qualified person to write a book on this subject. However, I will not venture an opinion on something that I have not read.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 07:14 AM

"Do you think it possible that your prejudiced comments might carry more weight if you had waited until after you had read it before making them?"
No - I most certainly hope not
I read in full all the subjects I mentioned and found some of them inaccurate
My doing so was prompted by a comment earlier which I responded to
Yes - Of course I do come to English Folk Song with preformed views - fifty years worth of research and collecting and involvement as a singer.
I have no argument with Steve - I am grateful for his work in numbering many of our own collection - his numbering system has simplified our own work enormously.
I have far too much respect for him to sychophantically accepting everything he has to say withoutt comment when I disagree with it - I believe him to be a far better individual than to expect that of anybody
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 09:15 AM

i suppose Jim's bound to look up the bits that interest him. its a human thing , we all do that.

and i guess if we find stuff that doesn't gel with our knowledge...we're bound to state our misgivings.

the important thing is that we maintain respect for each other, and not call each other predjudiced.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 11:48 AM

quite a lot of my friends call themselves shantymen and they have never been aboard any ship - royal navy, merchant navy, isle of wight ferry, nothing....

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 11:54 AM

I really look forward to reading this. Going to go order my copy . . .

Our own failure to get Walter Pardon's interviews out to a larger audience was underlined when I saw the only reference to him being his name on a list of other source singers that caught the wider attention of the folk scene.

Walter had a great deal to say about what was and was not a folk song - and why - often in detail.

Jim, are these available anywhere?

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 12:51 PM

The cheapest that I found it on offer was via Amazon UK £13.20
+ £2.80 UK delivery from BOOKS etc https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0571309712/ref=tmm_hrd_new_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=new&qid=&sr=

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Elmore
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 02:45 PM

Planned to buy this book, but Jim threw cold water on my enthusiasm. I may buy it anyway.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 03:23 PM

"Jim, are these available anywhere?"
Some of it is deposited in The British Library and has been since the 1980s, but they've never got around to putting it up on line
We live in hope!
If we can find a home for our Singers Workshop archive (a lot of it) our own collection will go with it
I've quoted some of it oftwn enough on Muccat
We contributed an article on Walter entitled 'A Simple Countryman!" (note the exclamation) to a Festschrift in honour of our friend, the late Tom Munnelly
If anybody would like a copy e-mail me - I'm sure Joe Offer will pass on our address to non-members
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 04:07 PM

GuestCJ,

Take hold of your copy of "Folksong in England" in two hands and open the book - BUT, not too far. You should find the spine opens up and you have a hollow. Look down the hollow and you will see a thin layer of white glue. This is all that is holding the pages of your book together.

You might want to get a paperback and compare the two. There is more to a hardback book than the stiffness of the boards.

Has anyone ever bought a Victorian gutta percha- or caoutchouc-bound book?

Now, modern glues are very good and much better than their Victorian equivalents, but, before long, if you fully open your new book more than a few times, and certainly if you open it flat on a desk, the spine will break and the pages will start to fall out. This will not happen with a properly bound book.

How do I know this? I've been selling out-of-print books for 35 years and bookbinding for almost 30.

It could be argued (although I wouldn't) that this kind of cheap book production is fine for popular, ephemeral fiction when most books are read once or twice then consigned to the shelf before being donated to the local charity shop.

But a real book, a proper book, is a way of preserving knowledge not a disposable commodity. They should be made to last.

Well done to Steve Roud for getting it published; I know it isn't easy! I just wish one of the university presses had recognised its importance to the corpus.

Best wishes CJ,

Harry

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 06:08 PM

you can get it for ten quid on kindle, no delivery cost and no worries about it falling to bits.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 06:09 PM

I want one.

What would be VERY valuable however would be yes - a DISCOGRAPHY.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:32 AM

Big Al,

A few worries about being able to read it though when you wake to find Bezos has deleted it from your machine while you weren't looking; or your battery is flat.

A real book can be yours forever, until you lend it to your best friend.

Harry

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:14 AM

if you hold the on/off switch for a minute, the kindle automatically reloads with all your stuff.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 06:11 AM

Not if Amazon choose to delete your books, as they did with two of George Orwell's in 2009(?).

Amazon will always have control of your library stored on Kindle and can, essentially, delete anything they choose without notice.

At least they'd have to get a warrant to enter my library and take my books.

Anyway, thread drift . . . . my final words: the 'hardback' produced by Faber is crap; the book written by Roud is bloody marvellous. My opinion and I'm keeping it.

Harry

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 06:41 AM

" a DISCOGRAPHY."
One of the most useful books I have for our researches is the fairly rare ' Irish Emigration Ballads and Songs' by Robert L Wight; absolutely indispensable if you are interested in the subject, but with probably the worst index of any serious book I have ever encountered
When I inherited my copy from the late Tom Munnelly, in desperation, I set about indexing it for my own use.
It should not be beyond the realms of possibility to share the task with friends and create a usable discography.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 06:47 AM

also you can make the writing very big so you don't need reading glasses.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 07:28 AM

"Re Bert Lloyd, I'm absolutely certain Steve wasn't motivated to write his book by Bert's fairy tales. There can't be many people left on the scene who don't take anything Bert wrote with a pinch of salt. This is not Bert bashing time. He was wonderfully gifted and left us a wealth of well-crafted material."

On that note, I do think it's a shame that it has the identical title as Bert Lloyd's book. I've no doubt that Steve wasn't motivated to write his book by Bert's book – to write a big book like that, your prime motivation will be overwhelming love for your subject – but giving it the same title will inevitably make it seem like it is 'Bert bashing'.

It's been many years since I read Bert's Folk Song in England, but I don't remember it being as naive as some as the adumbrations/caricatures described in this thread. I remember a strain of romanticism, sometimes a quite unpalatable one (when it came to dealings with women and sex, in particular). But for the most part I remember it being an inspirational, magical, poetical book. I enjoyed Bert's book for very similar reasons that I enjoyed Ciaron Carson's 'Last Night Fun'.

More importantly, I don't remember the speculative parts of it being presented as anything other than speculation. Perhaps this is a false memory: perhaps if I were to re-read it now I would indeed find that Bert Lloyd presents it all as unequivocal FACT and incontrovertible scholarship. But I doubt it; it wasn't that sort of book. I think criticisms of Bert Lloyd's writing are often unfair, because they seem to be criticising it for what is is NOT, rather than what it IS.

I'm looking forward to reading the Roud book - I've read about 20 pages – but I'm expecting it to be satisfying in a very different way.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 07:33 AM

A part of me wants to submit a book proposal to Faber for a new book called 'Folk Song in England'

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 09:04 PM

Faber have been publishing books with wonderful content, terrific design, typesetting and printing, first-rate paper, and shitty glue holding it all together since the 1960s. The second-hand market is littered with Fabers falling apart.

The only publisher I know of who beat them at that combination was Allen and Unwin - theirs were usually splitting apart within a year, try to find a copy of Arthur Waley's "170 Chinese Poems" in one piece.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:28 PM

"On that note, I do think it's a shame that it has the identical title as Bert Lloyd's book. I've no doubt that Steve wasn't motivated to write his book by Bert's book – to write a big book like that, your prime motivation will be overwhelming love for your subject – but giving it the same title will inevitably make it seem like it is 'Bert bashing'."

I certainly wasn't suggesting in my previous comments that Steve Roud's prime motive was to discredit Bert Lloyd, but neither do I believe that the choice of title was an accident. Other potential titles are available.

Lloyd's book is indeed inspirational, and it inspired me for many years until I began to look a bit more closely at some of the details. It was, however, a general interest book so, although folk song specialists may have known exactly how big a pinch of salt to take with it, much of its readership would not have done. What we have now is something much more evidence-based - although I suspect it still won't put an end to the arguments.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:52 PM

Not into Bert or Ewan bashing. Bert's book is eminently readable and his rolling prose has influenced me no end. Take a look at my intro to Southern Harvest and you'll see what I mean. I have issues with Mcoll but the song carriers turned me into a much better singer. Mcoll was an exemplary teacher. I believe the Song Carriers are available on CD
Is the new Folk song in England as readable and well written as Bert's? It's on my to buy list.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 06:28 PM

Readable and well written, yes, but some readers might want to skip chapters that don't fall within their interest band. I read all of it but found some of the music stuff by Julia above my head. My loss! It certainly pointed me at some other books I haven't yet read and desire to.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Jerome Clark
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 07:58 PM

I've got it on order and can hardly wait to read it. (It comes out next week on this side of the pond.) After his New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs I put Roud on my list of interesting persons with whom I'd like to down a beer or two or three.

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 07:43 AM

Message for Tunesmith, 27 August.
William Bolton was in both the Royal Navy and the merchant navy, and he certainly sang shanties to Anne Gilchrist.
Derek

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 08:10 AM

It's fair to say that "Folk Song in England" was not Steve's choice of title, it was the publisher's decision.
And sorry to disappoint Jerome Clark .... Steve is teetotal!
Derek

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 11:04 AM

"I believe the Song Carriers are available on CD"
If they still exist, nobody seems to know where the key is - that goes for some of the best programmes on folksong from the Golden Age of Radio
I went to the showing of an un-shown ilm made by Phillip Donnellon earlier this year and was horrified to learn what had happened to his work - even while he was living
" Bert's book is eminently readable "
I agree absolutely - of-its-time as it may be.
I look on such works as introductions to something that still interests and entertains me after half a century of involvement
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 11:25 AM

If they still exist...

You can download mp3s of 'The Song Carriers' programmes from a link posted in an earlier Mudcat thread:

Ewan MacColl - The Song Carriers

Subject: RE: New Book: Folk Song in England
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 02:44 PM

Bob Blair was selling CDr copies of the MacColl The Song Carriers radio programmes at Whitby Folk Week some years ago and I bought a complete set from him; not for what Ewan had to say but because of the opportunity to hear recordings of many of Britain's finest traditional singers. Generally these were not available at that time.
When I started to tell other people about the purchases, I was questioned about whether Bob was entitled to make and sell these and I didn't (and still don't) have the answer.