BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?

Subject: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 12:10 PM

a pity the hunting thread was closed. i think it was about to be revealed....

the humble farmer or the noble savage....

i wouldn't trust either of them.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 12:19 PM

And who killed the short-nosed bear?

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 12:31 PM

Cannot fathom why the "hunting" thread was closed - ours not to reason why. Pretty soon we will soon run out of interesting topics to discuss.
Perhaps they should put up a list or permitted subjects and permitted points of view - it would make things so much simpler.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 12:32 PM

I think that's the WOOLlY mammoth. But the hairy one's likely dead, too. Unless he's wherever Elvis is.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 01:06 PM

Humans, climate change, impact events, or a combination of factors.
The short answer is that nobody knows for certain. Lots of theory and peer reviewed papers but no absolute certainties. Most died out 10,000 years ago, but one tiny population lasted on Wrangel Island until 1650 BCE
   Researchers have analyzed the stomach contents of well preserved carcasses of mammoths, woolly rhinos and ancient horses, as well as preserved feces. Those contained a similar variety of plants to the ones in the permafrost – mostly forbs. Previously their presence had been downplayed because they do not register significantly in the pollen record. However analysis of ice cores(200) from Alaska and the yukon revealed DNA of these plants. The DNA analysis also showed that the vegetation changed dramatically around 10,000 years ago, when the Arctic grew warmer and wetter, giving rise to the tundra we know today, dominated by grasses and woody plants.
"Most of the evidence suggests these large mammals disappear almost at the same time these vegetation changes were taking place,"
Let battle commence!

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 01:11 PM

Cannot fathom why the "hunting" thread was closed

That's on one of the main reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 01:12 PM

It wasn't me!

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 01:18 PM

An interesting alternative view. Although I have no idea how mainstream the conclusions are. The dates present a bit of a conundrum.

http://www.pnas.org/content/104/41/16016.full

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 01:19 PM

If I recall, there's a plaque on a building in Ilford where they dug one up..

What happened to the Essex mammoths...????

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: olddude
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 02:13 PM

Me, I admit it bbq mammoth steak on the grill with my weatherby 300 mag

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 02:17 PM

Was it this one?

http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/oth/aveley.html

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 02:47 PM

Another unsubstantiated rumour is that a big boy did it and ran away , so there

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 05:08 PM

OK, so I admit it. It was me after all. Mea Culpa. In my defense, he was a complete bastard.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 05:59 PM

you see Iains sorted it.

THey ate the the wrong kind of heather.

Same thing could easily happen to the grouse (or grice). but luckily we have posh gits who want to shoot it, and keep it safe from the fate of the hairy mammoth.

theres a lesson for us all there.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 08:00 PM

So the plaque I remember has been nicked in the 17 years since I left East London to move back to south west scrumpyshire..

But now there's a new one...

http://www.ilfordrecorder.co.uk/news/heritage/where-mammoths-roamed-plaque-unveiled-to-mark-the-site-of-ilford-prehistoric-finds


No joke... googling "Ilford mammoth plaque" reveals that...

"Ilford is one of the world's foremost sites for fossils"...!!!!!


So were Essex mammoths blonde and draped in bling...???

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 08:05 PM

buggeration, the link doesn't work with blue clicky,
but it's near the top of google results for "ilford mammoth plaque"...

btw..

Barking History Society...

"The Ilford brick pits, mammoths of Ilford, TQ43718609

Notes compiled by Gerald Lucy for Essex Field Club website


Recent research has revealed that the mammoths of Ilford (at least from Uphall Pit) are not, as was thought, an early form of the familiar woolly mammoth, Mammuthus primigenius , but a late and slightly smaller form of the 'steppe mammoth' Mammuthus trogontherii. This conclusion has been reached by studying the molar teeth which have fewer enamel 'plates' and are therefore more 'primitive' - something that did not go unnoticed by Antonio Brady. It is thought that this particular form of steppe mammoth, now often referred to as the 'Ilford' mammoth, was unique to this interglacial stage (the MIS 7 interglacial) and may have been the only type of mammoth living in Britain at this time; the more specialised woolly mammoth, with teeth adapted to cope with abrasive grasses common in colder climates, not arriving in Britain until later.

Ilford is one of the world's foremost sites for fossils but, apart from the plaque in Ilford Lane and the items in Redbridge Museum, there is nothing here to commemorate this. An initiative known as 'The Ilford Mammoth Project' is aiming to change this by erecting a life-size bronze sculpture of a mammoth on the Eastern Roundabout (Griggs Approach). The project is supported by several prominent names in the world of palaeontology and a team of enthusiasts is currently engaged in raising the funds and obtaining the necessary permission. Further information can be found at www.theimponline.com.
"

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: olddude
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 08:05 PM

Next it is that Bigfoot bastard.. Oh he will be mine oh yes he will be mine.. Bigfoot bbq my place

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 08:08 PM

Is it true that frozen mammoths have on occasion been thawed out, cooked, and eaten...???

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 04:22 AM

There are mammoths that have been found to have evidence of cut marks on the bones. Human predation too. So the mammoths had a double whammy going on.

But did they put one in the freezer?

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 04:24 AM

Old

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/11/141124074841.htm

and new

http://mentalfloss.com/article/57100/time-250000-year-old-mammoth-was-served-dinner

I think I might have declineed the main course, had I been there.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 04:37 AM

Big Al. "THey ate the the wrong kind of heather."

No, that answer is just too easy.

I only just learnt this myself in t'other thread that hit a roadblock.

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/geography/research/projects/ice_age_ecosystems_and_the_story_of_the_megafauna.page


It looks a convincing argument, but is it the truth? Anyway a bit more on the mini mammoths of Wrengel Island

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/25/us/dwarf-mammoths-may-have-put-off-demise.html

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 04:57 AM

Isn't some work being done to clone Wooly Mammoths from DNA found in frozen samples.

They may be back on the menu at some point in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 05:36 AM

Woolly Mammoth Resurrection

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 05:42 AM

One possible reason for the demise is that they simply had a bad hair day.

Silky Hair

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 05:46 AM

so sad - wouldn't it be lovely if we had woolly mammoths and hairy mammoths and dwarf mammoths running round, visiting you in the back garden, having a shit on the lawn?

when you backed out of the drive, you'd have to check the mirror for mammoths.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 05:52 AM

this idea of shagging an elephant with mammoth DNA...i do hope they don't close down this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:14 AM

What your friendly neighbourhood mammoth scoffed.


https://evolve.community.uaf.edu/2016/04/26/dna-helps-piece-together-ancient-ice-age-vegetation/

Recent research tends to suggest that relying purely on pollen analysis for reconstructing past vegetation patterns gives a skewed result."While the data agree on a biome shift from dry steppe to wet tundra, the environmental DNA and pollen data were butting heads on the dominant plant type"
(I wonder if raising the above point closes this thread also?)

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Stu
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:34 AM

Climate change.

Also, dwarf mammoths only died out around 4,000 years ago, no evidence it was hunted by humans either, but managed to hold on in the island due to adaptive changes to the Holocene environment and a relict tundra-steppe flora perhaps surviving there. Paper here: Holocene dwarf mammoths from Wrangel Island in the Siberian Arctic

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 02:01 PM

Big Al. If you really want them in your back garden you are probably better off with the diddy ones. I wonder if they would do the same number on the grass in winter as wild boar?


https://jellereumer.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/2007-cfs-259-mammoth-extinction.pdf
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/gigantism-and-dwarfism-islands.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385739/

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 02:24 PM

Pocket sized / tabletop mammoths would be great...
right size for a hamster cage, or more elaborate climate controlled eco vivarium...

I'm actually being serious...
My mrs would love that.....

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 02:51 PM

a bonsai mammoth!

damn clever these Japanese!

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 11:30 AM

With apologies to those "magnificant men and their flying machines"
"they grow up tiddly up up, they grow down tiddly down down"


https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/apr/06/from-giant-rats-to-dwarf-elephants-island-living-changes-mammals

Maybe there are super rats in the London sewers. Anyone fancy a safari down them?

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 11:59 AM

Hardcore brexiteers read Iains latest link and take note...

" In mammals, one of the most dramatic responses to an insular environment is a change in body size. First noted in 1964, this pattern of body size changes in insular mammals became known as the "Island Rule". Although it is not a true rule, it describes a trend in which small mammals increase in size (insular gigantism), whereas large mammals will become smaller (insular dwarfism)....
Island species respond to this ecological release by losing adaptations that were necessary on the mainland, and evolve new ones by adaption to their new island home, which can result in a cascade of changes in behaviour, reproduction, population dynamics and anatomy."

Too many indigenous British are already pudgy past-faced stunty specimens at best...
We need the healthy genes of much more attractive foreign races to prevent us devolving even further down the uglyometric scale... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 12:03 PM

Correction: pasty-faced [definition: complexion like a a typical ukip member]

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 12:53 PM

I wonder if my bank balance will suffer from dwarfisn or gigantism after Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 01:05 PM

we had a mammoth in Nottinghamshire at Creswell Crags.
I'm not sure if it was hairy or woolly.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 08:30 AM

Just read that Mammoths were closer relative to Asian ELephants than African Elephants are

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 09:07 AM

wonder what they doing in a cave near Clowne in Derbyshire?

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 11:22 AM

..what you think maybe they were up to no good...???
That sort of thing still goes on in the sand dunes behind the golf course down this way....

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 05:15 AM

"until 1650 BCE" - what on earth does that mean??

It's either BC or AD.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 05:33 AM

Not any longer Bonzo. Why should non christians, the majority of the whole global population, use christian terminology as a base for calculating the age of anything.

BCE, Before Common Era, replaces potentially divisive language.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 05:40 AM

I understand the BC/BCE in a way, but the same argument applies to AD. While CE exists as a term, it is less common in my experience. Maybe AD is so familar CE sounds too forced. Or maybe Latin is less offensive *smile*

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Ernest
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 05:55 AM

"Before common time" suggests that OUR time is common while that of other cultures is ...ehm...uncommon. Neglecting for instance that the Chinese people outnumber Europeans by far.

Doesn`t sound much better to me.

Looks like politcal correctness has miserably failed.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:10 AM

"B.C.E./C.E. …do not presuppose faith in Christ and hence are more appropriate for interfaith dialog than the conventional B.C./A.D."

Common Era notation is used in many schools and academic settings.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:21 AM

I don't really go along with that argument. Choosing a point in time as an origin and naming it in some way does not necessitate believe the person it was named after existed. And that is a heck of a long way from having a specific faith. It is a name that encodes something of our history, just as the days of the week do. I can call a day Thursday without having faith in Thor.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:28 AM

Do people in France call the day Thursday, do people in China call the day Thursday ............

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:40 AM

when you're a hairy mammoth you can call it Thursday, and few will disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:42 AM

The claim was that calling the date BC/AD necitated a faith in Christ. That is what i diasagree with. Whether everyone calls it BC/AD, BCE/ce or just - and + doesn't both me. It is important scientifically we have an agreed point and if calling it by one name disturbs some people I am content to call it something else. The name is not the thing itself.

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:43 AM

Too true Al :-)

Subject: RE: BS: who killed the hairy mammoth?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:49 AM

Acknowledging a person's date of birth is not the same as accepting their set of beliefs. But it is acknowledging that they existed and that their beliefs are a part of the lives of a lot of people.

Another example of attempted historical revisionism.