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BS: brexit matters

Iains 11 Sep 17 - 01:57 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Sep 17 - 02:00 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 17 - 02:04 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Sep 17 - 02:14 PM
Iains 11 Sep 17 - 02:37 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Sep 17 - 02:41 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 17 - 03:34 PM
Iains 11 Sep 17 - 03:41 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Sep 17 - 04:29 PM
Teribus 11 Sep 17 - 05:33 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 17 - 05:36 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 17 - 05:40 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Sep 17 - 05:53 PM
Iains 11 Sep 17 - 05:55 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 17 - 06:05 PM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Sep 17 - 06:16 PM
Iains 11 Sep 17 - 06:46 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 17 - 08:00 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Sep 17 - 08:28 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 17 - 08:57 PM
Teribus 12 Sep 17 - 01:44 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 17 - 01:49 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 17 - 02:05 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 17 - 02:25 AM
David Carter (UK) 12 Sep 17 - 02:52 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 03:32 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 04:02 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 17 - 04:06 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 04:31 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 04:34 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 05:20 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 05:26 AM
Teribus 12 Sep 17 - 06:32 AM
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Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 06:46 AM
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Iains 12 Sep 17 - 07:43 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 07:49 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 17 - 07:56 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 08:22 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Sep 17 - 08:33 AM
Iains 12 Sep 17 - 08:53 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 01:57 PM

Tootler.Of 168 polls carried out since the EU referendum wording was decided last September(2015), fewer than a third (55 in all) predicted a leave vote.

The actual result on the night came in at 51.9% leave, 48.1% remain. Just 16 of 168 individual polls predicted a 52:48 split in favour of leave.

Polls did give a sense of the swing to leave in the first weeks of June, but edged back to favour remain in the final days before the vote. Just two of six polls released the day before the referendum ? those carried out by TNS and Opinium ? gave leave the edge.

Just goes to show that no politician should take things for granted.
Plan A was shambolic, plan B was not even contemplated. The present is the result.
It is a shame many others cannot post in your measured fashion.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:00 PM

The government is a minority, not a majority - that's the reason it had to spend one-and-a-half billion pounds of taxpayers' money to bribe the DUP to enter into a Confidence and Supply Agreement. The C&SA is not the same thing as a Coalition, and does not make the DUP a part of the government.

The Tories are a minority government, and it is completely undemocratic of them to expect to hold a majority on Parliamentary committees (thereby enabling them to railroad through amendments to EU Laws, and other subsequent Law-making, which otherwise may be defeated at the committee stage).

Confidence & Supply v. Coalition


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:04 PM

The only good thing to come out of Brexit is the display of idiocy by the Tory Party which lost them their majority and undermined their credibility
It has also exposed how thin their take on democracy is their joining league with a Party with terrorist links and bunging then a billion of taxpayers money- you couldn't make it up
Long may they reign
Other than that it has been an utter disaster so far and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:14 PM

Iain's - there are plenty of Brexiteers who post very aggressively. Your friend Terriblyboring is a prime example - rudeness and name-calling from the outset, naysaying without providing any kind of evidence for his claims.

I have personally been told on numerous occasions, on other forums, that I'm a 'traitor' because I voted Remain, and that I should either be deported, or arrested and shot. I've also been frequently told that I have no right to oppose Brexit, and that I'm denied that right 'because we voted for democracy', so I must 'shut up and get behind my country or suffer the consequences'.

I have never made death threats against Brexit supporters, I've never told them to shut up or suffer the consequences.

Democracy involves discussion and constant review of issues and decisions made, and it provides for changes of heart, and changes to decisions, in the light of changing circumstances. Democracy encourages open discussion, it does not stifle it.

Think about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:37 PM

Nothing wrong with discussion, it can continue up to the wire. It is what democracy thrives on. It all goes pear-shaped when opposing sides turn their differing points of view into an insulting hate fest.
Perhaps some use this as a ploy to have threads closed when the ayes seem to have it. Possibly we should have the tune from Deliverance
softly playing in the background as we compose our responses, it may temper them.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:41 PM

"I have never made death threats against Brexit supporters,"
Bet you didn't ask non-British residents when they were going home on the day after the referendum either - or were part of the rapid rise in racist incidents following the result
This vote succeeded in what it achieved - it made scapegoats of immigrants for a government no longer to control the economy and serve the people it was elected to represent.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:34 PM

The insulting hate-fest is your stock-in-trade, Iains, as you've been reminded of many times. By far the worst offender by a country mile is your chief ally Teribus, whom I have never ONCE heard you criticise. It behoves you to keep quiet about insults, etc., at least until you have been free of the habit for a goodly while. It seems that you share the Teribus school of thought, which dictates that you think it's right and proper to insult, ridicule and abuse the names of people simply because you think you're right and they're wrong. It's even worse than that, actually. You KNOW you're right, so you think. I'm not exactly innocent myself (I'm trying harder), so I tend to avoid diversions of this kind, so please just cut the sanctimonious bullshit. It really doesn't suit you, literally. Amen.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:41 PM

Jimmy and Shaw I could do a Father Christmas Ho Ho Ho after reading your respective posts. Just too funny for words. When do you start your comedy duo?


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:29 PM

the other side is calling names - so i'm going to call names. i'm going to out-stupid the stupidest bastards in the world.

i'm not saying we will recreate jerusalem in england's green and pleasant land.

what i am saying is that our parents lived through periods of mass unemployment, and they taught most of us there was an intrinsic value in being someone that was useful enough to society to have gainful employment.

it wasn't going to be fulfilling, a dream come true - but it was going to feel better than being superfluous to society and living on what the rich allowed to trickle down.

membership of the commonmarket has entailed losing those jobs. we couldn't control it. the way we sustained fullish employment was subsidy. according to eu rules - that is unfair competition - despite the fact that all our eu friends are in deadly competition with us, and practice many forms of protectionism on the sly.

calling me names won't alter those facts. the out vote was a reaction from all those areas of our country where the commonmarket has caused mass unemployment with all its social problems.

now give us some tdea of how we would call self interested other countries to account - should we stay in the EU, which is what you and most uk politicians want......or you could just go back to name calling.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:33 PM

"That dirty fucker's farted again! For fuck's sake open the windows! If he does it again, chuck his bedding out of the billet and let it get soaked in the rain! That'll teach the cunt." - Backwoodsman

And he's the TWAT complaining about - "rudeness and name-calling" - Priceless.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:36 PM

Er, what "mass unemployment," Al? That is not what we're being told, is it? We certainly had mass unemployment under Maggie. Would you care to explain how that was linked to our EU membership? You're not making a lot of sense to me...


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:40 PM

Cast out the plank, Billyboy, cast out the plank...😂


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:53 PM

You started it, Terriblyboring:-

11 Sep 17 - 03:24 AM

"This from Backwardsman:"
Same post: "Hate to point this out to you Numbnuts"

You've got a very short memory. Or you're a cunt. I'd like to think it's the former, but I've got a strong feeling it's the latter. You've got that reputation.

When people give me shit, they get it back. Start behaving like a civilised human being, and you'll get the same in return. Your choice, I don't give a damn.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:55 PM

"This vote succeeded in what it achieved - it made scapegoats of immigrants for a government no longer to control the economy and serve the people it was elected to represent."
That I am afraid is a unique Jimmy interpretation of the referendum result. In reality it was a vote to indicate whether we should stay or leave the EU. Why people voted the way they did may or may not be demonstrated by subsequent polls. Recently the accuracy of all polls has been shown to be questionable,

To say " our parents lived through periods of mass unemployment" is perfectly true-as the economy crashes so do job opportunities. For the same reason employment in heavy industry and mining declined steadily post WW2 in the UK. Structural changes and globalism forced change.
Production will go to the location where the costs of production are lowest. Why mine coal in the UK when it can be shipped in at less cost? Why make steel when China can provide it for less cost?
It is an extremely naive view to think it is deliberate government policy to destroy any industry just to spite the unions. It is purely an economic decision, although when pip squeak union leaders think they can dictate to government I am sure the government of the day does not mind a slight investment to poke them in the eye and demonstrate who is boss. Government does not create the changed economic realities, all it can do is react to them. It is the type of reaction from government that requires censure.
A typical example is the aircraft industry through the fifties. A total clusterf*****k of companies, projects, wasted investments....
The list goes on. The industry should have been rationalised and shrunk long before events forced the changes. Market leaders in the late 40's


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 06:05 PM

You didn't give us a list.

Very Thatcherite of you. The trouble is that you are are crediting, in sentiment if not expressly, that Tory harpy with vision. The same vision that destroyed our industrial base, let loose the city spivs with virtually no regulation (that eventually led to the crash in 2008), put millions on tbe scrapheap for ideological reasons, destroyed whole communities and virtually had her making love to a murderous fascist. My word, what vision. And it's one that you share.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 06:16 PM

Do you really believe that racsim had no influence on the vote in the referendum? Do you really believe that those who voted to leave were not influence whatsoever on the leave campaigns promises? Do you really believe that the assurances by the leave campaign that there would be serious discussions about UK being part of EAA or EFTA were nothing but a pack of lies? Do you really believe that those who voted leave did so on that basis of reliquishing European democracy to the rights of havngfacism impoosed by the UK government.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 06:46 PM

Well Shaw you clearly demonstrate your grasp of how the real world operates is sadly lacking. Less time in the classroom and more time experiencing reality would have probably helped you. Sadly not a vision Shaw but economic reality.If you cannot compete with challengers overseas on cost, where are you going to sell all this excess steel, ships and whatever else heavy engineering used to provide for export. Do you think sticking a union jack on the item suddenly makes it sell? You live in a dreamworld of little pink socialists, where everyday is sunshine and roses.

SPB-Cooperator. was not "do you really believe" a former hit by the Spice Girls? Interesting change of lyrics. Is that some sort of political statement?


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:00 PM

He's on late-night booze mode again, SPB. Worry not. An analyst would be able to write a whole thesis on his hysterical insecurities. Your post is spot on. Unfortunately, no leaver will admit that they voted leave on racist grounds now that they have had quite a long time to rationalise their "decision" to us.

Here's what's happened so far.

EU citizens are either leaving in droves or deciding not to come here at all. Why? Because they have heard about the hate crimes and the hostility towards "outsiders." If they come here they will endure severe job insecurity from now on, if they can get a job at all, not to speak of vilification from brainless xenophobes. They'd be mad to come here/stay here! But no worries! There are LOADS of trained-up skilled BRITS who can step into the breach! British jobs for British workers, old boy! The Empire strikes back!


NOT!!

The CBI are shitting themselves and the FTSE companies won't sign Theresa's letter. They know that they can't make it without those EU workers. Theresa can't make it without undemocratic Henry VIII laws, a dirty deal with a bunch of near-fascists and an unconstitutional attempt to stuff Commons committees with Tories. Meanwhile, the EU bigwigs, who have come to realise that, by the day of brexit, the UK will be an economic basket case (we're more than half way there already by every measure), they'll be a damn sight better off with us out, are laughing at the absolute buffoon who we've put in charge of brexit. Fifteen months on, less than eighteen to go, progress? Nil or backwards!

We're half-way down the skyscraper in freefall, but why look at the tarmac below when the little puffy clouds look so nice!


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:28 PM

you don't get it. industries aren't like maggie thatcher said, a shopping basket and if theres threepence off you buy from someone else.

they are interdependant. when you lost the coal. you lost the steel.. you lost the mining equipment manufacturing - we were world leaders in that. you lost huge swathes of transport. huge reasons for running trains.

of course our competitors could sell better things cheaper - try and buy a cheap car now though. of course you always tell your competitor that his product is no good, and the thing to do is go out of business. and if you've got the newspapers on your side and a hatred of the unions, some daft bastards will believe you.

membership of the eu just means more stagnation and diminution of our industries. go for it if thats what you want for your kids and grandkids. of course there lots of new jobs Steve. fries with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:57 PM

Yeah, plenty of new jobs, Al. A million on zero hours. Five million self-employed, largely bogus (aka your employer no longer pays sick pay, holiday pay, maternity pay, your stamp...). Hundreds of thousands on fake apprenticeships on half the minimum wage. Loads more working for wankers like Mike Ashley who docks your pay if the bus was five minutes late and who has people to check on how many times you've been for a piss. Loads more on short hours. I know couples who are both in full-time work who can hardly afford to rent a modest two-bed house on an estate here in Cornwall, the poorest area of England. We didn't lose those industries, Al. They were deliberately thrown away by Thatcher so that she could establish her yuppie spiv economy with no-one keeping an eye on what the spivs were up to. And just look where that got us in 2008.

A really serious question or two, Al. If there are so many spiffin' new jobs, can you explain why our economic growth is less than half of that of the eurozone and the worst of the G7? Can you explain why the productivity of this country refuses to take off?


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 01:44 AM

"When people give me shit, they get it back. Start behaving like a civilised human being, and you'll get the same in return."

Take a good long look a long way back I tried what you suggest above and with those on this forum it did not seem to make the slightest bit of difference, so I adopted the stance that you yourself outline in your first sentence above. As you go on to say - "I don't give a damn."

When people come out with complete and utter crap - such as bills being passed through Parliament without "scrutiny" or "approval" and expect others to swallow it I will challenge them and pull them up on their ill-informed and incorrect statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 01:49 AM

By the way Numbnuts this was your first post to this thread:

Backwoodsman - 09 Sep 17 - 09:54 AM

There's a live feed on FB at the moment from the anti-BrexShit demo in London. A great many of the 'comments' rolling up on it are from Pro-BrexShitters, and a considerable number of those proclaim that they 'voted for democracy', and that anyone who disagrees with them is a 'traitor' who should be forced to leave the UK,

Oh, the delicious irony! Sadly, those thick dipshits don't even get it.


So in this thread, in any exchange between me and thee chum it would appear that it was YOU who started the name calling. Mind you maybe the above IS YOU treating others with respect - wouldn't surprise me for one second.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:05 AM

SPB-Cooperator during the recent EU \referendum Campaign, as far as my vote went, the Leave side of it did not have to say a word. At any point from about 1982 onwards my vote would have been LEAVE - Don't think I am alone in that. The EU is a totally corrupt organisation who cannot even follow the rules and guidelines they themselves lay down.

If your mined coal is costing £250 per ton and you are relying on that to provide power to your industries because no-one else will buy it then everything you produce must absorb that cost which in turn means that your products are priced too high then your industries are going to go out of business irrespective of what Government is in power, especially if the country is part of a trading block (EU) that clearly states that government subsidies are illegal.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:25 AM

2008 financial crisis Shaw has S.F.A. to do with a British Prime Minister who had been out of office for 17 years before it happened.

The person who caused the 2008 world financial crash was a President of the United States of America and his administration. The President's name was William Jefferson Clinton and he did the damage in 1998 when he told the two largest mortgage brokers in the US to ensure loans were arranged for people who should never have been lent a penny. He did this and those mortgage brokers complied on the inferred promise by Clinton and his administration that these loans would be guaranteed by the Federal Reserve Bank. Only problem was the Fed knew absolutely nothing about it. That sub-prime debt was sold all over the world based on that lie and when the bubble burst the world caught a cold. Very early on in the crisis GWB asked Congress for $731 million to cover the crisis and the request was refused - Obama and the Democrats wanted to be seen as riding in to the rescues, which they did the February after he took up office. Unfortunately it was far too late, confidence had been lost and the $840 million he had to spend could not stop the run - GWB of course should have been given the money when it could have done some good. So Shaw, nothing whatsoever to do with Thatcher, and in the years that our banks made enormous profits I didn't hear a squeak of protest or any objection from Labour who were in power.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 02:52 AM

I hate to (at least partially) agree with Teribus, but the whole financial crisis was a result of irresponsible lending by financial institutions on both side of the Atlantic. I think though it goes back further than Clinton. Neither GWB nor Obama should have been given the money to bail out the banks, and though I think Vince Cable is right on brexit, he was an early advocate of bailing out banks in the UK which should never have happened. The banks should have been allowed to go bust, and depositors compensated up to the FSA limit.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:26 AM

"Mind you maybe the above IS YOU treating others with respect - wouldn't surprise me for one second."

"Hate to burst the bubbles of all the usual moaners "
"Clear as crystal to everybody else Shaw: "
Cases Shaw? what ones would you like to discuss? "
"So tell us Shaw how"
"Well then Shaw "
"That is a joke right? "
"or is that a bit of a problem to understand? "
"A toon for the Remoaners! "
"is a damned sight more relevant than your gas "
"By the way I thought you and the other remoaners on this forum"
"For someone who claims to be as widely travelled as yourself Shaw, I would have thought that by now you would have discovered what the bidet in the bathroom was for - enjoy your ants, skidmarks and view while ye may. "
"When will the remoaners start blaming the weather on Brexit? They appear to have the same knowledge of reality as they do of english grammar and spelling. " "One word sums them all up-PATHETIC!!!!! "
"This from Backwardsman: "
"Hate to point this out to you Numbnuts"
"By the way give my regards to the Musktwats. "
Not quite Backwards, I did take the trouble to correct one of probably many misconceived notions "
"Got it?? "
"How's that countdown of yours goin' Backwards? "

There you go Jom, Backwards, who has a posting style remarkably similar to that of Musktwat, "
"Care to tell us your version of how something becomes Law in the UK " "Backwardsman - I could do with a good laugh. "
"Oh dear someone having a hissyfit. Perhaps a kind forum fairy will delete him! or are some allowed to post what others cannot? "
"Thanks Shaw that was a good laugh. "
"What a remarkably stupid, divisive statement. "
"Not only stupid but inaccurate. "
" What an imagination the boy has- he is totally batshit crazy of course! "
"Backwardsman - more final appearances than Frank Sinatra"
"Go on then Arsefirst - Do it your way. "
"Try RUBBISH! "
"Backwardsman"
"And he's the TWAT complaining about - "rudeness and name-calling" - Priceless."
"Such a polite little fellow. The brexit controversy is becoming a little too taxing for him. "
"Jimmy and Shaw I could do a Father Christmas Ho Ho Ho after reading your respective posts. Just too funny for words. When do you start your comedy duo?"
"That I am afraid is a unique Jimmy interpretation of the referendum result. "
"When people come out with complete and utter crap"
"By the way Numbnuts this was your first post to this thread: "
"Oh, the delicious irony! Sadly, those thick dipshits don't even get it. "

This is a list of ill-mannered and personally insulting postings from just two people on this single thread alone ? there are hundreds of others on other threads, mainly closed down by such behaviour
Yet another interesting thread has just been closed as a direct result of the same behaviour of one of these people
There are a tiny number of other bad-tempered postings, invariably in direct response to insults by this pair.
If this behaviour is allowed to continue, this thread also will cease to exist, and so will this forum
Perhaps that's the purpose of peple who find themselves out of their depth and substitute bullying, sneering and personal insulting as a substitute for intelligent argument
I suggest that, if they are unable to control themselves, somebody in authority should take the situation in hand
We really cannot carry on decent, intelligent debates in the face of aggression such as this
The fact that there are only two main, persistent culprits should make it easy enough to deal with
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:32 AM

I've just opened Dave the Gnome's "You're not welcome on this thread"
Maybe it should be a permathread 'romper-room' for those who find themselves incapable of of behaving respectfully and intelligently, and let the rest of us get on with it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:02 AM

A dose of reality-nothing to do with Maggie.
The first from the Guardian, so it must be correct!

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/29/crisis-british-steel-tata-40-years-making

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/nostalgia/way-were-cotton-king-manchester-6085736

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

Very easy to generate the links for any industry and check the statistics yourselves. There is no point in singling out Thatcher for blame, she became premier with an inherited situation. Guilt can be shared in all directions. The major problem with government is that it only recognised the severity of the problem with hindsight. Consequently solutions offered were too little, too late. Sticking plasters do nothing to aid a corpse.
DEREGULATION was the mantra of Reaganomics and was adopted indiscriminately.
de regulation
Some would argue it was the best thing since sliced bread, others that it created an uncontrollable economic nemesis. All depends where you are coming from.
To blame the underlying structural changes of British Industry on a sinle politician is patently absurd and naive in the extreme. Socialists need to learn basic economics and history.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:06 AM

The rot started when the Thatcher regime lifted almost all regulation from financial institutions. True, Labour did not restore it. But that was the seed in this country. Blaming Clinton for banking irresponsibility in this country is ludicrous. You love to preach to us about taking personal responsibility, remember?

"The EU is a totally corrupt organisation who cannot even follow the rules and guidelines they themselves lay down."

Utter nonsense. That's the second time within a week and I'm still waiting to hear from you and Keith about this plethora of examples of the EU not following its own rules, etc. So far, you've given us one which I've disproved. Get to work, Bill (just trying to keep him quiet for a few hours, you understand...)


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:31 AM

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-ticking-euro-bomb-how-the-euro-zone-ignored-its-own-rules-a-790333.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11207721/Why-do-France-and-Germany-keep-breaking-EU-rules.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:34 AM

Decline of Manufacturing not just a British problem

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/economic-policy-papers/competition-and-the-decline-of-the-rust-belt


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 05:20 AM

"The rot started when the Thatcher regime lifted almost all regulation from financial institutions"

London, the capital city of the United Kingdom, is the world's leading financial centre for ... London generates approximately 22 per cent of the UK's GDP
London generates 30% of UK taxes


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 05:26 AM

Even Labour's PM Wilson saw a structural problem with British Industry in the early 60's.

white heat of technology speech


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:32 AM

Jom - Shaw's name is ..... well Shaw? What is wrong with using it?

Jom is the name you yourself once signed off on - during one of your interminable, incoherent rants and I rather liked it so it stuck.

In most of your "examples" Jom put them in context and you will discover they were written in response to comments made by others.

Now then Shaw? EU cannot abide by the rules it lays down - Go and take a look at the supposed rules for the ECB - they say what the bank can and cannot do - compare that to what the ECB is currently doing and has been doing for some time now under Mario Draghi on the orders of the EU Commission.

London is the largest and greatest financial hub in the world - it will continue to be so. WHY? Because it is independent of political interference unlike any bank in the Eurozone, if you doubt that ask the Greeks, the Cypriots, the Italians, the Spanish and the Irish. The world of international finance just simple will not trust the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:40 AM

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 08:28 PM
you don't get it. industries aren't like maggie thatcher said, a shopping basket and if theres threepence off you buy from someone else.
they are interdependant. when you lost the coal. you lost the steel.. you lost the mining equipment manufacturing - we were world leaders in that. you lost huge swathes of transport. huge reasons for running trains.


Yes, and rather than just blaming Maggie, look at the actual history.
Callaghan & Wilson closed more pits than Thatcher.
But they were the labour party, so presumably that's Ok.

Even when Maggie did close them, some had already had a year of non-production due to strikes (or maybe walk-outs). The strikes were also endorsed by the Labour Party.

Let's put the blame where it belongs.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:46 AM

Iains
"How the Euro Zone Ignored Its Own Rules" - was written in 2011 when Britain was a full member of the EU was a member and had ever4y chance to complain if it found that to be true - in fact, if it is, Britain was as guilty as any and is pert off that "ignoring"
To complain about it now is somewhat ingenuous
"Making its own rules" is a somewhat stupidly meaningless term - the EU is an organic organisation whose job it is to adapt to changing circumstances by "making its own rules" - whose job is it to do so if not the EU itself?
Comparing what happens in the EU is equally as meaningless - all that it means is that the entire system we live under is in the clarts, not just Britain, which as far as I am concerned is the point.
Britain cannot "stand on its own feet" without an industrial base
Our industrial base was destroyed long ago so, unless it is replaced, we have no feet to stand on.
It is immaterial who destroyed industry - it was killed off for profit for the investors, not for the benefit of the British people as a whole
We are now reliant on imports, largely from the labour of workers working in slave-like conditions, which, apart from the moral issue, which creates another massive problem for us in that those wishing to seek a better life turn to Britain as a haven from the hell we have helped create an are perpetuating with our trade.
Our demand for oil and our support for the most despotic regimes has led to a flood of refugees seeking safety from wars we have helped create.
This is not just about economics - it involves the well-being and future of the whole planet
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 06:57 AM

"Jom - Shaw's name is ..... well Shaw? What is wrong with using it?"
I don'tt know if it is his real name, it could be a pseudonym - but his chosen name is "Steve Shaw" - "Saw is an attempt to talk down to him (if he is a him" - a deliberate ploy on your part to foulf the atmoshere and in doing so to gain some sort of an advantage
"Jom is the name you yourself once signed off on"
It was a typo and you have been tod that numerous times - it repleced your equally unimaginative "Christmas"
What I said abou "Shaw" goes equally for this an attempt fo establish some sort uf upper ground by talking down to people
Both were a minute part of a massive list of insults, not just on this thread but on dozens of others
Far from from being a response to others (aka "he hit me first sir", they have been part of your bullying behaviour from the beginning
Some time ago, Joe Offer, in his reasonable way, suggested that we stop behaving like name-calling schoolchildren
Most of us did, you you persist - maybe because you have little else to offer
I up to you to prove that is not the case by behaving like an adult
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:30 AM

Just got back, who closed the JRM thread...and why?

I told you to calm down Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:41 AM

There was a lot of interesting responses and more posts in a day than any other.......this thread is full of cursing and obscenities by Backwoodsman, but its still open.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:43 AM

Jim you need to be put in a case and displayed alongside T REX in a museum unless you can argue from the 21st century, not the timewarp of nonsensical argument you are trapped in. No doubt you would argue we need apprenticeships for fletchers and bowmen.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:49 AM

"I told you to calm down Jim."
Read what has gobe before Ake - you insulting rolling is as much a part of the state of this forum
I was sixty miles away from my computer when the Mogg thread was closed down - Teribus and Iians posted six times between them after my last posting
- they included three personal insults or attempts to 'talk down' , which I reckon was the reason the thread got coles down
It's about time you cleaned up your act too
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:56 AM

Steve Shaw is my one and only name and I'm a big hairy bloke, Jim. Woodcock here, aka Teribus, was the first to call me Shaw, and his little puppydog Iains came along and copied him like a sheep. Everybody in the world who knows me calls me Steve except for those two. Well, Mrs Steve has been known to be slightly less complimentary....


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:58 AM

""How the Euro Zone Ignored Its Own Rules" - was written in 2011"
and??????????????????????

Here is a view of reality: It has it's upsides and downsides.

https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/west-economy-misbalanced-services-manufacturing.html

If you want to argue a service economy is not ideal I can understand your view.
If you want to argue our economy is too dependent on financial service and therefore potentially vulnerable I would agree with you.
Much of what you trot out is just a tired old mantra with no supporting statistics.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:22 AM

"""How the Euro Zone Ignored Its Own Rules" - was written in 2011""
You aare putting it up as how it affects Britain after Brexit
Britsin was part of ignoring its own rules if the complaints are accurate - a culprit, not a victim
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:33 AM

Continue..
You are ignoring what I wrote about Britain being incapable of "stonding on its own feet" without an industrial base
Also, the implications, both morally and practically of Britain dealing with despots and importing goods being produced by slave labour
Inevitably, Brexit will make Britain even more dependent on such tainted goods
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:53 AM

"Britain being incapable of "standing on its own feet" without an industrial base"
and what does the emerald isle have as an industrial base- peat and cow s**t perhaps?
For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison and I do not mean the union.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 08:58 AM

"and what does the emerald isle have as an industrial base- peat and cow s**t perhaps?"
No it does not thanks to Britain developing industry in the North East, giving the best land to settlers than hanging on to that bit after independence
Immaterial anyway - Ireland is remaining in the EU
"For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison"
The isolationist nature of Brexit rules that one out then?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

Sould have added - under British Rule, all the major industry was centred in the North East - the bit that still remains under British rule
The Republic has never recovered by the massive loss of population by death and forced emigrations of the mid nineteenth century, the aftershocks of which are still very much a part of Irish life today
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

"For the rest- in a global market change can only occur when all act in unison"
The isolationist nature of Brexit rules that one out then?
Jim Carroll


In what strange example of a dictionary can you equate 'Global' with the UK membership of the EU?
Brexit allows us to deal on our own terms with the rest of the world (i.e. 'Globally'). This includes allowing us to deal with the EU.
Brexit is not an isolationist policy, it is a globalist policy. We do not wish our trade with other nations to be restricted by some of the silly rules originated within the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:09 AM

250


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