BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:52 AM

He's holding up the hoops again lads!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:48 AM

Jim,
The school which believes that homosexuality is a mortal sin Keith

Which one is that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:46 AM


Let's be clear, Keith. The Catholic Church has an extremely intolerant official line on homosexuality,

No it does not. The position is the same for heterosexual relationships outside marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:45 AM

The fact that he has the full vocal support of Farrago says everything that neds to be said about Mogg
Two clowns in the same circus

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:43 AM

"What school of thought is that then Jim?. "
The school which believes that homosexuality is a mortal sin Keith - go read what he has to say - don't take my words for it
Mogg is a fundamentalist on both Gays and pregnancy termination - hence the Times cartoon of him being strangled by his own umbilical cord

"The Tory backbencher, who's been widely tipped to replace Theresa May as Conservative leader, possibly Prime Minister, stressed that he "supports the teaching of the Catholic church," suggesting that same-sex weddings are a sin.
He also insisted that he doesn't support abortion under any circumstance, including rape.
"Plenty of Catholics believe in gay marriage," Susanna Reid fumed.
Mogg elaborated: "But marriage is a sacrament and a sacrament lies with the church and not with parliament."
http://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/850555/Jacob-Rees-Mogg-abortion-gay-marriage-Good-Morning-Britain-Piers-Morgan-Susanna-Reid
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:41 AM

Let's be clear, Keith. The Catholic Church has an extremely intolerant official line on homosexuality, thus:

Homosexuality is addressed in Catholic moral theology under two forms: homosexual orientation is considered an "objective disorder" because Catholicism views it as being "ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil", but not sinful unless acted upon. Homosexual sexual activity, by contrast, is viewed as a "moral disorder" and "homosexual acts" are viewed as "contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity."

The Catholic Church teaches that marriage can be made only between a man and a woman, and opposes introduction of both civil and religious same-sex marriage.The Church holds that same-sex unions are an unfavorable environment for children and that the legalization of such unions is harmful to society. [wiki]

In essence, that's as bad as it gets in any religion. How Catholicism actually responds to homosexuality may be a different matter, especially in some western countries. But I don't disecern much scope for softening in that official doctrine, and, as Jim says, as a Catholic believer you are going to hell if you act on your homosexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:31 AM

Good God, a rogue apostrophe in the other thread, now "you're." Arrgh.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:31 AM

Mogg comes from a school of thought that believes homosexuality to be punishable by eternal fire and damnation

What school of thought is that then Jim?.
Gay folk are welcome in church, and neither Catholic nor CofE Churches proscribe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:19 AM

"I do not believe that things have got to that state yet with regard to Jacob Rees-Mogg."
Mogg comes from a school of thought that believes homosexuality to be punishable by eternal fire and damnation - far worse than any temporal punishment to a believer - eternal, pain-filled revenge.
His school also condemns the use of contraception and believes women unfit to hold church office
He is an anachronism - a regular guest on 'Have I got News for You' for his 'ridicule' value
He represents everything the Tory party stands for, privilege, inequality and the rest of us knowing our place
BRING HIM ON - PLEASE!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:56 AM

You're Muslim example is a poke in the eye for akenaton, Teribus, negating his opening post nicely. Well done!

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:49 AM

Also Teribus, having an Irish born grandparent really does entitle you to Irish citizenship. I checked this out after the brexit vote, sadly my Irish ancestry is two generations further back.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:46 AM

Teribus, in some countries nationality is conferred automatically at birth, and the holder has to explicitly renounce that nationality in order not to hold it. This is what some Australian politicians have fallen foul of. I think Britain is one such country, it certainly used to be. So actually did Australia.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:16 AM

As a bit of an aside, I was thinking about this of the latest royal conception (I know, I know, but bear with me.) We often say that XYZ is nth in line to the throne. When child is a year old that same person is (n+1)th in line. So when does it change? When the pregnancy is announced? When the birth takes place? So is Harry currently 5th or 6th in line?

I don't care a jot, actually, apart from that it a quirk of the system...

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 04:06 AM

He sees the anomaly in a 24 week old foetus having the "right to life", yet a 23 week old does not.

Leaving the specific issue aside, he knows full well that every law introduces such anomalies. Why is someone of sixteen allowed things that a sixteen-year-old-less-1hr is not? Or 18 years olds allowed to vote, but 17-and-11 months can't? Or women of a certain age can retire as 65 but those born a day later they have to wait to 67? Laws introduce boundaries, and the exact point of that boundary is a balance of many competing interests; it is a consensus not, in most case, a matter of anything specifically logical about the choice. So pleading this specific law as anomalous is mendacious, in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 03:40 AM

Ake. Being able to discuss tolerance within the context of any religion
is probably generations into the future. Expecting any rational discussion of such a topic on this forum is a step too far.
Even the weather cannot be discussed without the idiots insisting on their pedantic two penn'orth.
For some, discussion of semantics covers an inability to pursue or even discuss the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 03:32 AM

The most apt "Muslim" example on record would appear to be the current Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, who voted for Gay Marriage and supports abortion - he received death threats for doing so from fellow Muslims. I do not believe that things have got to that state yet with regard to Jacob Rees-Mogg.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 03:25 AM

Jeff, what YOU refer to as "trolling", I see as stimulation of discussion.

If you dislike discussion of controversial subjects, just remain above it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 03:20 AM

JRM

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 03:01 AM

This issue has caused a bit of a furore in the UK....current affairs.
It was instigated by the mainstream media as a political bear trap and Mr RM's response has dealt with it pretty well.
His beliefs are "based on the teaching of the Catholic Church"

The issue regarding the views on homosexuality and abortion held by devout Muslims is never discussed....... why the double standards?

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 08:14 PM

Yeah, well, Jeff, the last time you posted to BS was a response to an Ake post and you typed twice as much as you've done here. Thing is, the odds are that someone would have brought up Moggie sometime around now in any case. The fact that troll-face did it first is, well, a tad irrelevant, and his follow-up posts on this thread have demonstrated just how irrelevant he is. So forget akenaton and yak on about Jake. Or just forget it and play a tune. We have choices!

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: JeffB
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 07:44 PM

Well, here you all go again, dancing to ake's tune while he's laughing up his sleeve at you. You lot never learn. He posts something provocative, everyone jumps in, then you start arguing amongst yourselves, then it turns into a vicious slanging match, and once in a while he posts again to stir things up. Why do you bother to even reply to his posts and play his infantile game? Do you really think you can change his mind? Do you think he is remotely interested in your opinions? He's just a troll. He enjoys winding you up. He doesn't think in a rational way; he has merely a visceral hatred of liberal opinion which he cannot articulate because he chooses not to think rationally. What he believes to be his considered opinions are nothing but a kind of frustrated emotion fuelled by aggressive discontent, like all the other bigoted trolls which infest the internet.

I have asked him a couple of times to say exactly what aspects of liberal political philosophy he disagrees with, and why, and he refuses to reply. Because he can't. Because thought, of an impartial analytical rational sort, is beyond him. What he can do though, and what he delights in, is getting "liberals" in a lather. It proves to him that he is better than you.

Best thing to do is to stop posting to this thread, and ignore him in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 07:18 PM

You're not wrong, Gallus Moll. It gets me every time. Should I say nothing though?

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 06:59 PM

I guess this stuff passes for tossing red meat to starving conservative crowd.

In the US we call this stuff the never ending culture war.

Jeez this stuff is for tossers. A gay marriage abortion thread, what will they think of next?

How about a thread just on abortion? or marriage?

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 06:41 PM

Mildly interesting that all those discussing an event that only happens to women, and is the right of any woman to choose (or not) ---appear to be male? (I assume the pseudonyms are all male)

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Iains
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 06:15 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Jeremy_Corbyn

and you have the temerity to accuse the lucid, right honourable Mr. Rees Mogg of being mad as a bag of frogs??????

I trust you jest!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 06:01 PM

I heard you first time, Bill.

He does not invoke my ire. He's a joke who is no threat to any ideals I may subscribe to. Actually, considering that you're not interested in my opinions, it's somewhat amazing that you home in on me more than on anyone else bar Jim. I'm sure that someone who "can be arsed to look it up" could analyse that statistically. I suppose it emanates from your underlying insecurity, so often laid bare on this forum. Let's keep on having fun, Monsieur Woodcock.

I would imagine that most thinking Catholics, Joe included (who, sensibly, probably isn't reading this) would distance themselves from this chap's intolerant and bigoted outbursts. You don't have to be in favour of abortion to accept that it's the right of any woman to make those decisions for herself, even if you accept restrictions. You don't have to like the idea of gay marriage to accept that ordinary, decent human beings want to embrace that for themselves and that, when they do, it won't do you or anyone else one iota of harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:32 PM

Being eligible for dual or multi-nationality is one thing. Actually applying for it and holding it is another entirely. Does anyone KNOW that Jacob Rees-Mogg HOLDS either an Irish, or American Passport? I rather doubt that he does. I think that having had an Irish-American grandmother is a bit tenuous for claiming US Citizenship - might even be true for the Irish connection as well - can't really be arsed to look it up but I think it has got to be direct parent, and even with that there are qualifications.

By the bye Shaw I would rather have hoped by now that you would have realised that I am not in the least bit interested in your opinions on anything. Were that not the case, the fact that you seem to have such a particularly low opinion of the man would only recommend him to me better than a glowing reference from anyone else - If he has prompted your ire then he must be doing something right.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:32 PM

Being eligible for dual or multi-nationality is one thing. Actually applying for it and holding it is another entirely. Does anyone KNOW that Jacob Rees-Mogg HOLDS either an Irish, or American Passport? I rather doubt that he does. I think that having had an Irish-American grandmother is a bit tenuous for claiming US Citizenship - might even be true for the Irish connection as well - can't really be arsed to look it up but I think it has got to be direct parent, and even with that there are qualifications.

By the bye Shaw I would rather have hoped by now that you would have realised that I am not in the least bit interested in your opinions on anything. Were that not the case, the fact that you seem to have such a particularly low opinion of the man would only recommend him to me better than a glowing reference from anyone else - If he has prompted your ire then he must be doing something right.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:00 PM

Rees-Mogg's catholicism came from his Irish-American grandmother, the male line were protestant vicars and coal owners in north east Somerset. Members of that family both baptised some of my ancestors into the anglican church, and sent them to work down coal mines at the age of 11. Of course, not only did the catholicism come into the family by that route, so did the new money as the pits in Somerset were exhausted by the late 19th century. A bit like Churchills and Vanderbilts really. If he can be shown to be entitled to either an Irish or an American passport, then I would agree, in this one instance with Iains, that he should be banned from public office. In Australia, people seem to have been decreed to be ineligible for office as they have been found to have nationalities that they were entirely unaware of.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 04:50 PM

I would be very interested in a contribution from Joe who is a Catholic I believe.
Mr RM bases his views on Catholic teaching, I have no religious faith but find myself understanding his views and agreeing for the most part.

Jim's point regarding a pregnancy which put the mother's life at risk is interesting, how would Jacob deal with that quandary?
Would leaving it to God be a cop out? Should it be the mother's decision in that case?

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 04:49 PM

Despite all that, Teribus, thing is, he's a twat.


I don't think he should be banned from being Tory leader. I think he's the ideal candidate. The sooner the better! As for the indignant and Islamophobic nonsense of the opening post, the obstinate fact is that he can't be banned. However, he CAN be not selected by the Tories. They are the only people who can "ban" him. And they suck, so let 'em get on with it, say I.

In fact, despite all these claims about his alleged honesty, his antediluvian telly outburst about abortion and gay marriage was a coded message that he doesn't want to be Tory leader in a million years. As a matter of fact, he's always said that he loves being a back-bencher. Not so straightforward after all. Typical devious politico, in fact. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Iains
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 03:30 PM

I much prefer an honest politician, anachronism though the species may be. Could have done with more of his ilk when dodgy dossiers were being conjured up, and force fed to the unsuspecting electorate as holy writ.
Rather than bringing the desirability of religious affiliations into the equation, where again any proposals having a religious slant would need party support and parliamentary approval to make any headway, I would prefer to ban anyone holding dual nationality from holding any kind of public office.
What nationality would have the over riding loyalty?
Think Brexit and dual anglo-french, anglo-german nationality, or anglo-irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 03:13 PM

Seven...
Six...
Five...

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 03:11 PM

I could be arguing in my spare time.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 03:07 PM

I've told you once !

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 02:44 PM

Is this the 10 minute argument or the full half hour?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 02:27 PM

Anytime Rees-Mogg has appeared on Question Time he acquitted himself far, far better than his fellow panellists. Anytime he spoke to address a point EVERYONE fell silent to listen to what he had to say - Not always the case on that programme:

"Mr Rees–Mogg previously described the victory for the Leave campaign as "a wonderful liberation for the country", adding "no political event in my lifetime has been better or more exciting for the nation".

Following a particularly impassioned speech in the Commons earlier this year, Brexit secretary David Davis declared: "As ever, my right honourable friend speaks for England."

The question of a second referendum was raised and Mr Rees–Mogg calmly declared that democracy must be respected.

On Question Time he added: "This is characteristic of the EU, vote in a way that Brussels does not like and you have to vote again until they have done what they tell you. [Ask the electorate of Ireland that is precisely what has happened to them TWICE now]

"It seems to me that we had a referendum, we voted to leave and that must be implemented or we deny democracy."

As for this:

"Rees Mogg is an anachronism, his beliefs are archaic, outdated and serve no useful purpose in the 21st century, not even to the Tory party."

Well I will grant that he is honest and has integrity which does set him out as being liable to accusations of being "anachronistic" in comparison to our current crop of politicians. But greatly to his credit, he does not squat down in railway carriages and complain about there being no seats when there is documented video coverage of the fact that there were seats available.

As for "beliefs being outdated" - I do not believe that he would waste anytime attempting to restore the reputation of Leon Trotsky a-la Jeremy Corbyn. But I suppose to some on this forum that is real "finger-on-the-pulse" stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 02:18 PM

Time for the off button...

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 02:04 PM

The Tories also voted for that war.

"If one accepts the principle of the "right to life" one must oppose abortion."

Please just shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 01:28 PM

Ten...
Nine...
Eight...

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Iains
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 01:27 PM

I do not anticipate this thread lasting too much longer.

Rees Mogg is articulate and certainly not stupid. Any policies he may introduce depend on his party's backing. His personal thoughts and beliefs may or may not sway his party and/or the electorate.
He is apparently a politician able to give honest answers, even if controversial. The usual pack would obviously prefer to hear what they want to hear from a politician. maybe they even believe what they say!
Now what about bliar blair and weapons of mass destruction. Led us into an illegal war.

What is more important: having a personal belief in banning abortion?
                        Taking a country to war and having a
                        responsibility for the ensuing death toll

Squeals on a postcard please!

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 12:49 PM

"What do you know about dignity, you are a cheap ranter with nothing to contribute."
Very wel argued ake - I doubt if I could aspite to that level of discussion
"right to life"
The right to life, as advocated by the anti-choicers, doesn't apply to mothers who stand to die if their unborn children's life is at stake, or to the raped pre-teen children who have ben refused terminations when their lives were at risk.
A great deal of thought and discussion ahs taken place to decide time limits of when pregnancy termination is permissible and not and laws have been made on the basis of those discussions - only the medievalist fundamentalists like yourself still oppose them - based largely on the demands of superstition-ridden celibate old men who don't even regard women as important to hold office in their churches
You describe me as "out of date", but, as with homosexuality, you still plouter round in medieval darkness
You really are something else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 12:44 PM

Yes Nigel but would he be judged as harshly as Mr Rees Mogg on his social views or his adherence to his faith, by our "liberal" colleagues?

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 12:37 PM

What do you know about dignity, you are a cheap ranter with nothing to contribute.
Mr RM makes the point avoided by many "liberals", that human life begins at conception. He sees the anomaly in a 24 week old foetus having the "right to life", yet a 23 week old does not.
It has also been brought to my attention that a child at full term can be legally killed if the child is disabled...this may or may not be true perhaps someone on the thread knows?

If one accepts the principle of the "right to life" one must oppose abortion.
Nigel makes some good points, Had Mr RM lied or refused to answer, would he be a better person.....do we actually want politicians who habitually lie.
Mr RMis very well liked in political circles by people of all political persuasions, he has an excellent grasp of parliamentary procedure and uses reasoned argument at all times.....unlike most of the "contributors" here, but I have no doubt he will be hounded by jackals like Morgan and his sidekick from now onward.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 12:19 PM

Ake:
I see nothing that would debar a Muslim from serving in HM Government, unless it was un unwillingness to take the oath of office (which has in the past prevented some Irish MPs from attending)

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 11:56 AM

"have said anything of interest, "
Then again, you are not interested in facts - you certainly refuse to respond to them
Your postings become more and more like unqualified graffiti
"The Muslim faith teaches that homosexuality is a cardinal sin, punishable by death."
So does the Christian faith in many cases - punishable by eternal damnation - far worse for a believer
"But you all love the Muslim faith.....don't you?"
If I thought you would respond with actual evidence, I'd ask you to produce a single shred of proof of this statement - you won't so I will settle for failure to do so as evidence of it being pure invention on your part
Why do you do this Ake - it isn't even dignified, let alone logical
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 11:46 AM

Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 11:31 AM

Well, Only the usual "suspects" Iains, Nigel, and DmcG, have said anything of interest, or even addressed my question.

Nobody has commented on the issue regarding devout Muslims and their suitability for office.
The Muslim faith teaches that homosexuality is a cardinal sin, punishable by death.....Abortion is of course completely proscribed.
But you all love the Muslim faith.....don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 10:35 AM

I've seen worms with more charisma and character than this piece of shit.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Jacob Rees Mogg.
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 10:32 AM

Nasty piece of work parading as an amiable buffoon. Must be some sort of toffs trick as Boris employs the same subterfuge too, and Farage's public persona is a similar construct. Works on a fair wodge of us proles though, more's the pity.