Origins: Molly Malone

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: IanC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:46 AM

Mary...'s version looks about right. There's nothing in The Bodleian collection and (oddly) there's nothing in Levy, but The British Library catalogue has two entries for 19th Century versions.

"Cockles & Mussels" Song [begins: "Of all merry blades"] Geoghegan, Joseph B 1876.

"Cockles and Mussels" Comic Song. (Written and composed by J. Yorkston, arranged by E. Forman.) Yorkston. James 1884.

Style is much more 19th Century also.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM

Ah, marymarymary, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Right - so, who else here remembers Dublin without the Tart Or the Floozie?

Pete

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: marymarymary
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:28 AM

There is an interesting debunking of the Molly Malone story on this website. The song was apparently written and copyrighted by a man from Edinburgh in the late 1880's, and there are no references to *any* version of the song or the story before that time.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From:
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:51 AM

Thanks Martin, that would be wonderful.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 07:55 AM

There's an article in the current issue of Irish Music Magazine with some research background on this one. I'll add details later.

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 06:58 PM

If you're curious to see what the statue on Grafton Street looks like, here's a picture.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Molly Malone
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 04:40 PM

Did someone call???

Ok, I always thought cockles and mussels meant something else altogether! If you look at it from a Bawdy Balladeer's perspective, the songs quite different.

(Shakespeare would be so proud!)

Subject: RE: Help: Who wrote Molly Malone?
From:
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 10:42 AM

John, if you look at the other thread that someone has refreshed you will note the history located at

Irish Mysteries - Molly Malone

Also, that history refers to this link of the original words

Original Lyrics

Subject: Who wrote Molly Malone?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 08:05 AM

I have an old manuscript which attributes the composition of Cockles and Mussels to James Yorkston. I can verify the date of publication by Monday of next week. Can anyone shed any light on this please? Regards, John

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Seonaid
Date: 24 Dec 99 - 12:04 PM

This has been a great thread. I didn't realize Molly could be found in Gaelic -- great! Re Molly's moral reputation: There is a traditional association of fish and sex, based on olfactory considerations (if you don't understand, ask a sexually adventurous friend). Not much of a stretch to associate peddling a barrow full of actual marine creatures with the selling of something else entirely.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: diesel
Date: 24 Dec 99 - 11:32 AM

Quite agree on the location of the statue being on Grafton Street.A book I read some time ago now for the leaving cert. was "A charwomans daughter" which gave some wonderful descripions of the city and its people at the turn of the century, it also put me straight on the winding Grafton street stopping at the doors/gates to Trinity. Wonderful book - I'ld recommend it.

rgds

James

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: paddymac
Date: 24 Dec 99 - 12:32 AM

I don't think I would call Molly's statue "life-sized". Certainly not if you look at the paps of ana rubbed to such a lustrous sheen by thousands (at least) of tourists. Seems to me that one of Frank Harte's song books described her as an entirely mythological creature. A good wee bar bet is "Where is the statue?" I've had more than a few pints from folks who don't believe me when I tell them she stands on Grafton Street. Most tourists think Grafton Street is limited to the slope coming down from the green, but if you look closely at a good Dublin map you'll see that it extends 2 blocks northward from the foot of the slope, to include the location of the "Tart with the cart". Jeez, can't wait to get back.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 24 Dec 99 - 12:20 AM

Thanks Diesel. I think I have been very lucky to obtain what the others have given on Her. At least its a good start. I don't keep track of the Mudcat all the time and I miss so much. Wish I could spend more time here but work will not allow it.

I wish all a very happy, holy, & blessed holiday season and a New Year filled with love, joy, and good health.

Kat

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: diesel
Date: 23 Dec 99 - 10:09 AM

Kat I haven't forget ye, but I'm living here in Dublin and you think I can find out much about her - not a chance ! The corpo and various other groups have been asked - I'll keep digging but don't hold the breath waiting on this one ...........

Merry Christmas to all

Diesel

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: tipper
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 07:11 PM

Please forgive the spelling of right for wright and what ever else.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: tipper
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 07:03 PM

I had the good forturn to be in Frank Hart's class that in was giving at the week long gaelic roots festival held at Boston Collage,frank said 'the songs of the past are out there floating around and it takes someone to put a voice to it,to make it live on.Also 'those in power right the history, while those who suffer right the songs and Ireland has a lot of songs....any body else been to B.C. for gaelic roots

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 06:34 PM

LaMarca

Frank's version is great, alright!
That said, I'm still sceptical about the song's origins.Frank disclaimed all knowledge of them in the first edition of his "Songs of Dublin" - and I've never heard him say otherwise in recent years. I'll ask when next we meet.

And before anyone mutters darkly in their beer - I agree completely that the origins don't make a blind bit of difference to the quality of the song. I'm just curious!

Regards

p.s. George: The programme was probably in Pat Feely's series "The Song and the Story", of which I heard some but not all. Many were excellent - some were highly speculative, IMHO.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 06:20 PM

This has been a great thread! I have never known much about this song, that my Dad sang so often in my childhood, and that I have been singing also, for many years. I have played this song to a wide variety of audiences, and all respond to it ... all seem to know it, and many sing along - even in the Country bars. Thanks, all!

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: lamarca
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 02:06 PM

I had the good fortune to hear Frank Harte at the Washington Irish Festival 2 years ago. He did sets on several stages; I went to hear him in our pseudo-"Pub" stage. He did a fine set, and got Karen Casey and Mairead ni Mhaonaigh up to sing songs they had learned from him, too. He ended his set by getting his granddaughter up on stage with him. She sat on his lap, and they sang "Molly Malone" together - another generation of Dublin singers carrying on that grand song.

Frank said something about singing which I've taken to heart - that you should learn and sings songs for the songs' sake. He sometimes has people ask him why he learns these long a capella ballads or historical songs, when they don't necessarily make good pub sing alongs or performance pieces. His reply is that he sings the songs because he loves them, they're a part of the tradition and the people who passed them down over the generations also sang them because they loved them, not for an audience or performance.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: NSC
Date: 22 Dec 99 - 03:25 AM

Martin,

I heard the date reference on a trad programme on RTE but I cannot remeber which one. I was on my way to or from Ennistymon the year Frank gave his wonderful lecture and he sang this at the beginning.

The way he roars Cockles and Mussels definitely makes you see her shouting from behind the barrow. Her morrels are of no concern to me. I love her.

Yes I think this is the song Frank was referring to.

George

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 21 Dec 99 - 11:07 AM

NSC (Is that you in there George?!)

Any evidence for the 1697 date? BTW isn't this the one of which Frank Harte remaarked: "Don't judge a song by the company it keeps!" Or was that the "Spanish Lady"? --- and no chat about the latter's morals, either ...

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 21 Dec 99 - 09:37 AM

Thank U all so much for the information. It has been so much fun finding about one of Dublin's more famous characters. Lyle, I really enjoyed the Irish Historical Mysteries site. I suppose it is best that no real history has been written on her, this way we can create who she was as we would have had her be. ( I still think of her as a lily of the street people.)

Big Mick, thank U for springing to defend her. She is no doubt smiling on U for your chivalry. Thanks NSC, for your support of the singing of it in traditional circles. It is one of the most traditional ballads I know of. No party has ended that I have not been requested to sing it and it always brings the water up into the eyes of those listening. I love the melody and the tenderness of the words. It's a great song.

I wish you all a very happy, holy Christmas and a New Year filled with blessings, joy and good health. Remember the reason for the season, stay sober, please.

Love to all, God bless. Kat

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: NSC
Date: 21 Dec 99 - 03:54 AM

Incidentally she died in 1697 or thereabouts.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: NSC
Date: 21 Dec 99 - 03:53 AM

Frank Harte has made a recording of this fine traditional Dublin song which epitomises the only way it should be sung.

I recommend his singing to anyone and it should and must be sung in traditional circles. It is a traditional song.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Dec 99 - 03:38 AM

Nice one Áine
I notice though, that the word 'fever' is literally translated. That's fine, but as I sit and think about this song, and I have done for a few days now, the waters just get muddier.
It reminds me of the UFO sightings that you hear about, that are proven by a very shakey hand video recorder that's doing it's best to cast even further doubt on the claim.
Nice translation isn't it?
B.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Áine
Date: 20 Dec 99 - 09:08 AM

Big Mick or Brendy,

If you're interested, you can find the song in Irish here

Le meas, Áine

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Dec 99 - 01:01 AM

Micheál, Micheál, easy on the bold type there a chara.
That's not the way to resolve our differences in this englightened society of ours.
I'll tell you what. I'm a wee Northerner that does not have the same idea on Molly Malone as others particularly have. I have nothing against the song, I just don't love it.
I don't think it's place is in a session of traditional music. The outside world assosiate Irish music with the Dubliners, The Pogues. Well the outside world on this side of the pond anyway.
My heart has been nearly broken because of the song.
When I go back to Ireland, I need to. I need to sit and play the tunes with people who are sensitive to the music.
I need to discuss and sing songs other than those which define Irish music in my part of the world. I try to do this twice or three times a year. Because it is too important to my general well being and sanity. That's why I do it.
This is also, I suppose, why I joined the Mudcat. Here we have a place where even discussing WhiskEy in the Jar, Molly Malone and the likes can be fun, and not reduced to the "Play a good Irish song like Molly Malone" when I'm bustin my ass singing other, and better songs about the social conditions in all of Ireland, not just Dublin.
Take the fists down Mick, and you over there drop that ashtray. Lets write a song about it instead.
We could set up a Molly Malone commity to investigate allegations that she actually took payment for services rendered.
That she did this on several occasions.
They could also comfirm or deny doctors reports to whit Molly Malone, spinster, of address unknown, inner city Dublin, Ireland, did secumb after long illness of Cholera, Tuberculosis, Diptheria, Syphilis, or other agent unknown.
Having gathered all relevant documents, and after interviewing any surving eye-witnesses, we could form a sub-commity to write the report, submit it to your MP. or Congressman, who will propose the bill, which will make the law, which will come in force, which will forbid anyone to to challenge the fact.

Love to All.....B

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Dec 99 - 12:11 AM

Awwwwwrrrrriiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhhttttttteeeeeee then................all of youse bowsies what would impugn the reputation of the lovely Molly Malone, I want you all out behind the pub............now. Not one at a time, I want all of youse. My buddy, Paddy Reilly, he of Rathcoole, will be standing by to pour a drop of the holy water, run once troo the kidneys, on your sorry selfs for suggesting such a t'ing. Out we go..............

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Dec 99 - 11:41 PM

I think that was the point I was making, Kat.
A 'loose lady' is a term thought up by other people.
From my understanding, and don't get me wrong, I only know of the period history, not hers. But any woman who was 'freeer' in her relationships with men was termed a prostitute, and, after a long day a-trading her wares, what could be nicer except a couple of bottles of stout, a few gins, and a bit of company in the bed to stave off the lonliness: not a prostitute.
Interesting references Lyle. I had never turned much thought towards her, except to refuse to sing the song in traditional circles, but I will check them out later.

B.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 19 Dec 99 - 11:29 PM

Thanks heaps Lyle, I can't wait to go and check them out. I will write more after reading.

What U have given is a great deal more than I have ever been able to find.

I just can't believe that she was a 'loose' lady as the words of the song refer to her is such loving, tender terms. Nowhere do the lyrics degrade her in that manor.

Blessings Kat

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Lyle
Date: 19 Dec 99 - 11:09 PM

Don't know how much help these will be, but at least they are interesting!

Emmanuel Kehoe writes: "Cockles and Mussels" is a dirge for an 18th century fishmonger (almost certainly an historical figure) who died in one of the cholera epidemics that regularly swept the city of Dublin. Molly possibly was a part-time bawd and the song is alluded to with sexual innuendo by Leopold Bloom, the hero of James Joyce's Ulysses. The doleful ballad, invested with bizarre brio by football crowds, has become Dublin's anthem. A life-size bronze statue of Molly pushing a handcart and wearing a rather revealing dress stands across the road from Trinity College, Dublin. Dubliners, who have taken to giving their statues rhyming nick-names refer to it as "The Tart with The Cart".

Unfortunately, I have this with a copy of Moly Malone, and I didn't annotate where I got it from! Sorry.

But here are two other sites that are interesting, and someday I'll learn about that "blue clicky thing."

Irish Historical Mysteries has an interesting story, and can be found at:

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/index.htm

Irish Historical Mysteries: Molly Malone Take #2 also is interesting, and can be found at:

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/molly2.htm

Hope this helps a bit!

Lyle

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 19 Dec 99 - 07:39 AM

Thank U both, Big Mick and Brendan, but I would like to find some of her personal history, like birth date and place where she grew up. Anything that would put some electric to her life.

She was well known enough for someone to write the song, there must have been more to her than being a monger. I somehow cannot believe she was also a prostitute. I can just imagine all the work involved as a monger. Get up before dawn, go get fish from pier, walk it back to the market pushing a full cart, then sell and clean up afterward. No, she did not have the time or the energy for the 'street' work. I perfer to believe that our dear Molly was a hard-working, God fearing girl who just became very ill and passed on. But there was a bit of living beyone the fish cart. That's what I want to know about.

Blessings all and thanks again. Kat

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Dec 99 - 02:01 AM

No, apparently, she doubled as a prostitute. But of course that was a term used, and still is, by people who view a woman with 'looser morals' than themselves. Hence the 'tart with the cart'.
There is many an opinion, and many's the pint has been drunk debating this very question, but popular thinking has it that the 'fever' referred to as as the cause of her sad and untimely demise, incurable as it was, was non other than the dreaded 'pox' (syphilis).
As mortality rates of the time went, in working class Dublin, it was odds on that it was the 'pox'.

But then that's wat pints are for!!

Oh! barman........?

Breandán

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 10:38 AM

Bert, don't you even try to appropriate our lady of the bosoms to England................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I recall hearing, about the time of the Dublin Millenium celebration, that there was a raging debate over what Molly really died of. She was a real person and her death records exist. Some black hearted blaggard suggested that she was a prostitute and died of venereal disease. Those who staunchly defend the reputation of she of the wonderful cleavage believe it was probably of food poisoning from eating tainted oysters, as the beds had been polluted pretty badly in those days.

WEMBLEY AND HARROW, INDEED........HHHHHHHMMMMMMMMPPPPPPPHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 07:54 AM

Thanks Diesel, I sure can't find a thing. Such a lovely song must have a bit of history behind it.

Blessings Kat

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Diesel
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 07:06 AM

Don't know the history of Molly,but will try find out for you as I'm rather interested in it myself.

I do know that the term "tart with the cart" does not refer to Molly per se ! but however is a reflection on Dublin wit. Many the monument gets jibes in such satire-like prose. The Anna Livia fountain in O'Connell Street was known as "the flussi in the jacussi" or the now removed millenium clock from the liffey as "the time in the slime".Such is the humour !

Diesel - in Dublin

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Bert
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 04:00 PM

to think we used to sing

....and she wheels her wheelbarrow
though Wembley and Harrow....

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 03:55 PM

There's something on another thread, but I can't recall the title of it. There's a statue of her in Dublin, and Jack Campin (Edinburgh environs, has website on Scots tunes +) said it's recently known as that of 'the tart with the cart', but didn't cite any historical evidence that she was a prostitute, too.

Subject: RE: Help: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 03:52 PM

SORRY FOLKS, I meant to write history OF Molly Malone, not For. I really don't think she cares, but never the less, Tony and I need it, not poor, dead, Molly.

Thanks again Kat

Subject: History for Molly Malone please
From: Kat
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 03:47 PM

Does anyone know the story behind the song, Molly Malone? Is it based on fact or fiction, any other information? Friend needs to know and I am also curious.

Thanks and blessings. Kat