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BS: What defines the English

selby 15 Sep 17 - 01:49 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Sep 17 - 02:03 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Sep 17 - 02:59 PM
michaelr 15 Sep 17 - 03:19 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Sep 17 - 04:06 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Sep 17 - 05:11 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Sep 17 - 05:43 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Sep 17 - 06:23 PM
Mr Red 15 Sep 17 - 06:34 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Sep 17 - 06:56 PM
The Sandman 15 Sep 17 - 08:08 PM
DMcG 16 Sep 17 - 02:59 AM
Iains 16 Sep 17 - 03:14 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM
Mr Red 16 Sep 17 - 03:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Sep 17 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 17 - 04:25 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Sep 17 - 05:09 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Sep 17 - 05:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Sep 17 - 05:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Sep 17 - 05:37 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 17 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 17 - 06:10 AM
MikeL2 16 Sep 17 - 06:17 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Sep 17 - 07:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Sep 17 - 07:19 AM
Mr Red 16 Sep 17 - 07:44 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 17 - 08:22 AM
gillymor 16 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM
peteaberdeen 16 Sep 17 - 01:33 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 17 - 03:43 PM
Long Firm Freddie 16 Sep 17 - 05:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Sep 17 - 03:45 AM
Thompson 17 Sep 17 - 09:02 AM
Stilly River Sage 17 Sep 17 - 10:38 AM
Stu 17 Sep 17 - 02:45 PM
Thompson 17 Sep 17 - 06:46 PM
Thompson 17 Sep 17 - 06:59 PM
Nigel Parsons 17 Sep 17 - 07:59 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Sep 17 - 02:36 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Sep 17 - 02:43 AM
Mr Red 18 Sep 17 - 02:50 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Sep 17 - 02:54 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Sep 17 - 05:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Sep 17 - 05:44 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Sep 17 - 06:30 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Sep 17 - 07:32 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Sep 17 - 01:21 PM
Donuel 18 Sep 17 - 03:46 PM
Teribus 19 Sep 17 - 02:33 AM
Mr Red 19 Sep 17 - 04:01 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Sep 17 - 05:20 AM
David Carter (UK) 19 Sep 17 - 05:57 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Sep 17 - 06:44 AM
Teribus 19 Sep 17 - 06:45 AM
David Carter (UK) 19 Sep 17 - 06:57 AM
David Carter (UK) 19 Sep 17 - 07:01 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Sep 17 - 07:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Sep 17 - 07:50 AM
DMcG 19 Sep 17 - 08:05 AM
The Sandman 19 Sep 17 - 11:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Sep 17 - 01:03 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Sep 17 - 01:08 PM
Teribus 20 Sep 17 - 02:49 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 17 - 03:19 AM
David Carter (UK) 20 Sep 17 - 03:25 AM
Mr Red 20 Sep 17 - 03:25 AM
Teribus 20 Sep 17 - 03:50 AM
Teribus 20 Sep 17 - 04:07 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 17 - 04:27 AM
Teribus 20 Sep 17 - 05:05 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 17 - 05:20 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Sep 17 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 17 - 06:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Sep 17 - 06:23 AM
Teribus 20 Sep 17 - 07:02 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 17 - 07:05 AM
Teribus 20 Sep 17 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 17 - 08:19 AM
Teribus 20 Sep 17 - 08:43 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 17 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM
David Carter (UK) 20 Sep 17 - 09:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Sep 17 - 12:24 PM
selby 20 Sep 17 - 12:28 PM
Teribus 20 Sep 17 - 12:33 PM
Teribus 20 Sep 17 - 12:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Sep 17 - 12:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Sep 17 - 01:01 PM
David Carter (UK) 20 Sep 17 - 01:41 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 17 - 01:44 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 17 - 02:50 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Sep 17 - 03:42 PM
Teribus 20 Sep 17 - 03:44 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Sep 17 - 05:55 PM
Raggytash 20 Sep 17 - 06:30 PM
bobad 20 Sep 17 - 07:11 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 17 - 08:35 PM

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Subject: BS: What defines the English
From: selby
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 01:49 PM

Sat in Ludlow castle the other day watching the English flag flying, which in days gone by would have flown a flag to show everyone around who's loyalty the castle supported.

I started pondering what identifies the English if you think of most countries there is a identifier, for example :Scotland kilt bagpipes etc: Ireland Guiness Harps leprechauns etc

So can anyone tell me what identifies the English?

Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 02:03 PM

Dunno really. I was born in England but half my ancestry is Irish. I've lived in Cornwall for thirty years and in London and Essex for thirteen years before that but my Lancashire accent is completely intact. I love Italy and Spain and the people there and I go to both countries a lot. The stickers on my car are the flag of St Piran and the Indalo symbol of Andalucía. I much prefer Italian wine to English beer, though I was on the tasting panel for Doom Bar for several years. I'm a European at heart and bitterly regret the current disaster besetting us. Oh, the hard times of old England! So I suppose that one attribute of my Englishness is that I'm bloody confused.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 02:59 PM

There are many English people living in the West of Ireland, all unidentifiable until they open their mouths
The day of the patronising Englishman who insists on talking down to the natives is long gone; I haven't come across one for - at least a week!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 03:19 PM

Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 04:06 PM

our great cultural achievements....like breakfast


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 05:11 PM

As long as it's with black pudding but NOT baked beans. Who's bloody idea was it that baked beans should be part of the Full Works fer chrissake!


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 05:43 PM

I rather enjoy baked beans on a FE, it's those bloody revolting tinned tomatoes I can't bear. Grilled fresh tomato - yum! Tinned plum tomatoes - heeeeuuuwwweeeee!

And yes, black pudding is vital. And proper sausages - Lincolnshire sausages, preferably, none of that Walls' garbage.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 06:23 PM

I want bacon. I want fried eggs. I'll tolerate toast but I really want fried bread. I want a grilled tomato, top and bottom bits. I want properly seasoned decent mushrooms (not tinned button shite). I want black pudding. I want a decent banger. I want a large pot of builder's tea. Bugger off with your poxy little pot of baked beans. I'm English and I'm proud of it!


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 06:34 PM

a small voice suggests Morris

Football

Stiff upper lip

queuing

church bell ringing

the Rolling English Road (not just a load of Belloc's)

black pudding (yes but hold the onions!)



Now - what defines Staffordshire?


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 06:56 PM

I'll go along with all that with the caveat that the football refers to Anfield.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 08:08 PM

their love of queues, it is one thing they are really good at forming a queue


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 02:59 AM

The English Breakfast? Well, I have no idea who normalised it, but in hotels and similar I have certainly come across Scottish Breakfast, Irish Breakfast and American breakfast, which were all more or less the same thing. The main difference in the Scottish was that if you preferred you could pass on the lot and just have porridge instead. The Irish seemed to be exactly the same, apart from ensuring all the ingredients came from Ireland. The American contribution again seemed the same apart from - personal prejudice here - substituting that brittle greasy red-brown stuff they seem to think is bacon.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 03:14 AM

The contribution from over the water of pancakes and maple syrup cannot be surpassed.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 03:17 AM

There is no 'definition' of being English, in my opinion - it really depends on where you are and who you meet and mix with.
I've lived in three major cities and visited every county for a long or short period - each place may have had its own characteristic, but even that depends on who you meet and how you respond to them.
Probably, the nearest you get to 'Englishness' is when you meet a bunch of English strangers abroad - then you get a somewhat exaggerated version of what they feel they ought to be - pleasant sometimes but sometimes not (try Faliraki, or rather, don't try Faliraki)
Long live multiculturalism as far as I'm concerned - that's where you get humanity at its best, or will do when the English learn to embrace it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 03:30 AM

The proper way to spell defence, realise, favour - (feel free to add)

Discussing the weather.

I was once told by a Canadian from Vancouver that she realised why we talk about it, it changes every hour. In her city when there was snow, it was snow yesterday, snow tomorrow and who snows when!


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 04:19 AM

I'll just paraphrase my post from the 'Essence of England' thread.

Having an Italian coffee with an English bacon butty
Washing a lamb biryani down with a couple of pints of Black Sheep
Listening to ska in the local park while watching bowls

and add

Accepting everyone and incorporating their cultures.


DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 04:25 AM

"Accepting everyone and incorporating their cultures."
Drink to that Dave, probably with a Guinness
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:09 AM

Football??? Rubbish!!

RUGBY (both codes) and CRICKET!!


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:11 AM

"Accepting everyone and incorporating their cultures."
Drink to that Dave, probably with a Guinness
Jim Carroll

except down The Singers Club of yore....

(sorry - couldn't resist that!)


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:34 AM

No need to apologise, Al. You reminded me to add a good sense of humour to the list and the ability to laugh at ourselves :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:37 AM

Whoops - Ideas come in the wrong sequence and we end up with a sentence that is not English like wot should be spake. Just waiting for the grammar police...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:56 AM

I hate to say it but I prefer American spellings on the whole. They are in no way corruptions of British English. Both derive from a time before spellings in both countries were standardised* so neither can claim to be "correct" (it's usually we Brits who try that stunt). It's just that most American spellings were prescribed by Webster and most British spellings were prescribed by Johnson, two chaps with slightly different ideas. Before them, you can find both ways of spelling on both sides of the Atlantic.

*Standardized?


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 06:10 AM

"Football??? Rubbish!!"
Only when played outside Liverpool!
"except down The Singers Club of yore....
"Don't spoil this with Urban myths Al
I saw Ravi Shankar there, and Bruno Pianta and Sandra Mantovani, and The Batish Family and Kali Das Gupta and Eric Bogle and and dozens dozens Irish, Scots and American performers down the years - not many English clubs could make such a boast
I remember trying to sell a cassette of an Irish Traveller we recorded that had been issued by the Vaughan Williams Library at a London folk club and being told by a somewhat rotund man with mutton-chop whiskers and sporting a Union Jack tee shirt - "sorry we only go in for English songs here".
Maybe that's what defines being English
Sorry - couldn't resist that!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: MikeL2
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 06:17 AM

Hi

I lived in Scotland for a number of years.

Scottish breakfast where I was in the highlands was much the same as a Full English ( with beans) You could also have black pudding and/or white pudding if you preferred it.

My wife fell in love with Haggis for breakfast...not for me though.


My choice of memorable English fare is New Cheshire Potatoes straight from the field with fresh free range eggs, fresh bread (as dippers) washed down with a good draught beer. ( Dave I find it difficult to get Black Sheep on draught here so I drink Boddingtons.)

Like others here I have been around a bit and have a house in Spain, and have met several nationalities. I have found that most of them are great to get on with. I find the Dutch to be very interesting and humourous.

I find it difficult to define the typical Englishman these days as we become ever more Cosmomopolitan. I think that this males us more interesting.

Cheers

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 07:16 AM

well there is hat Basil Fawlty strain within us - no use in pretending otherwise....no riff raff!


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 07:19 AM

When I worked in Belgium I found that I had far more in common with the Dutch speakers than the French speakers. Not sure of the significance but I am sure there must be one :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 07:44 AM

Maybe you had a doppelganger............

Or would that be double vlaams?


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 08:22 AM

"no riff raff!"
Did you know "riff-raff" originates from the French?
Make sure you look under your bed every night - you never know whose crept in while you're not looking!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 09:48 AM

When I think of England I think of Flowery Twats. Or is it Fawlty Towers?


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 01:33 PM

are we talking about englishmen here or 'the english' - do we consider women at all on this site?
mostly we have good manners when driving
we (men)(is it the same down south?) love to take the piss out of each other - it's a sign of affection and acceptance
many older guys find it difficult to shake off our old empire arrogance and racist attitudes from 60s and 70s comedy. but some of us try and the rest complain about pc gone mad.
i like to think we were defined by the opening ceremony of the london olympics and despair of how that good feeling has become brexit nonsense and division.
sadly, i think a good many of us like war and having an enemy to despise. we can be self-righteous and pig-headed.
george orwell - we don't like pomposity and arrogance in others, we do like gardens. and small football clubs, and our wonderful pubs and beers, canals, steam engines, gossip and small talk
we like foreigners in ones and twos - but not the idea of them living here
we like to know our place and mistrust those in other places.
are there any women who contribute to mudcat? why is that? do we like women or merely the idea of women?
we bore easily......
that sounds a bit shit, really - some of us love our radical traditions, the music, the writing, the countryside, small unassuming birds. some of us are open to the world and the world of ideas - some of us closed up tight and living in a mythical past.
some of us miss joe strummer and others miss the empire. some like bridges and others like walls


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 03:43 PM

Good post, Pete.

Yeah, there are a few women. I think they are rarely the main antagonists in the more robust and argumentative threads and we could reflect on that. Who was it who said "Shall there be womanly times? Or shall we die?" Not Maggie Thatcher, for sure, or Theresa May. Maybe you stop being a woman when you start being a Tory...

I have terrible manners when I'm driving. It's bad enough when Mrs Steve is in the passenger seat, but when I'm on my own it's an opportunity to use every swearword and profanity in the book, and loud (windows safely up, natch). It doesn't half allow me to let off the steam that I have no real reason to need to let off...


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 05:24 PM

England: A Beginner's Guide (YouTube)

Funny but entirely accurate...

LFF


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 03:45 AM

I'm glad I'm not with you when you are on your own then Steve.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 09:02 AM

I read recently (it may be an urban myth?) that there are 28 countries in the world that the British (by which we normally mean the English, really) have not invaded.

As for the Universal Breakfast, any tomatoes in it should be grilled or fried till soft, and preferably caramelised a little, which can be done by adding a sprinkling of brown sugar on the top, then turning the half-tomato over.

It's a thing of constant cultural change; I recently had it in Goodenough College in London expressed as rashers, scrambled eggs, mushrooms, two kinds of sausages and hash browns. There were also tomatoes available but they looked unhappily half-raw, as well as poached eggs, fried eggs, baked beans (shudder) and other… things.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 10:38 AM

Friends who travel to England seem to delight in posting photos of their food when faced with the "English Breakfast." They always look like a full day's calories in one sitting, washed down with enough grease and salt to send one to the hospital. I'd question whether it's something you really want to brag about. It's like Amish cooking here - recipes are as robust as that, but in a world where they eschew technology and burn several thousand more calories a day than the typical Brit or American their metabolisms can process that much food and grease.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Stu
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 02:45 PM

Sets you up for the day, a decent full English. Don't need to eat until teatime then.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 06:46 PM

Have to say, my first day's breakfast in Goodenough College was the full fry; my second was granola followed by a fresh fruit salad and sour yogurt - it set me up equally if not better for the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 06:59 PM

There is of course a song about it though in this case it's about the economic effects of the Irish devotion to fried breakfasts compared to the leaner, meaner, continentaller version.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 07:59 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 03:43 PM
Good post, Pete.

Yeah, there are a few women. I think they are rarely the main antagonists in the more robust and argumentative threads and we could reflect on that. Who was it who said "Shall there be womanly times? Or shall we die?" Not Maggie Thatcher, for sure, or Theresa May. Maybe you stop being a woman when you start being a Tory...


Not really a valid comment. We could just as easily respond with "you stop using your reasoning facilities when you start voting Labour"

I'm not making that claim, but it is painting with just as broad a brush-stroke as Steve Shaw attempts.

Cheers
Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 02:36 AM

"Are there any women who contribute to Mudcat?"

There are, although many seem to have fled or passed away. Some of the most vitriolic and vituperative arguments I can recall on this forum have been between women - Lizzie Cornish, Ruth Archer, and the now departed Diane Easby (formerly Countess Richard) spring immediately to mind. And they tended to be 'Above The Line' too, rather than in the BS section. Their shenanigans would make the antics of our current crop of mutton-head Usual Suspects look like a Sunday-School tea-party.

Wonder what happened to LC and RA?


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 02:43 AM

"our current crop of mutton-head Usual Suspects "
Your pesistent sniding of members who take a serious part in arguments you choose not to tale part in is somewhat cowardly Baccy
Maybe that is an English trait
How about if people started talking about interfering neutrals?
Would make this forum a far more unpleasant and precarious place
"stay out of the kitchen" as the saying goes, and don't shout insults through the door either
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 02:50 AM

They always look like a full day's calories in one sitting
When I am at Sidmouth & IVFDF the days are for burning calories.

Porridge, as wonderfuel as it is, is not enough for such festivities.


but it is painting with just as broad a brush-stroke as
Quite! Politics are (sic) belief systems. Just like all the other religions.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 02:54 AM

Lizzie kept sending me messages about red indians being dead clever and knowing the earth's secrets.

Finally I said something which made her reach for her tomahawk. can't remember what.

She's probably still to be found in pow wow with the Sidmouth Mescaleros.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 05:06 AM

You don't have the Full English every day if you have any sense, Acme. As a matter of fact I never have one unless I'm staying in a cosy B&B somewhere, where I may indulge as a treat. About once a year I might have one in The Lounge in Truro, where you can have one at lunchtime. As Stu says, it lasts you right through the afternoon. Though I wouldn't make that a golden rule...

I'll commit heresy by declaring that I'd much sooner have streaky bacon than back. Far tastier. Though bacon is bacon and I'm not that bothered how it comes. Bacon butties in my house are always streaky. Why anyone would sully the taste of bacon in a well-buttered butty by slathering tomato ketchup on it is utterly beyond me.

You completely missed the sentiment of what I said, Nigel. Hardly surprising, as you Tories do love to crow about your being the only party to produce women prime ministers.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 05:44 AM

You completely missed the sentiment of what I said, Nigel. Hardly surprising, as you Tories do love to crow about your being the only party to produce women prime ministers.

No, I didn't miss the sentiment, I responded to your comment: Maybe you stop being a woman when you start being a Tory...

As for you Tories do love to crow about your being the only party to produce women prime ministers who brought that subject up?
Just the result of an inferiority complex because you're stuck with Corbyn? No, there again, if you're discussing Prime Ministers you also had Blair.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 06:30 AM

Silly, Nigel. Your response showed that you missed the sentiment. I actually joined the Labour Party because of Jeremy Corbyn, the next prime minister, I hope, so how that means I feel "stuck" with him is, well, beyond me. Do move swiftly on, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 07:32 AM

i bet Jeremy knocks up a pretty good meat free full English that would be acceptable to all minorities.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 01:21 PM

Thatcher/Blair
Two sides to of the ame coin
Thatcher was the fascist that climbed into bed with a mass murdering dictator and declared that those who whished to put him on trial for his crimes were "running a police state"
Blair narrowly escaped being convicted of war crimes for his lying role in Iraq
It isn'tt what you call yourself that defines you - it's your actions - both represent Right politics that give precedence to the wealthy rather than the people of Britain as a whole.
Hopefully Corbyn will live up to the socialist politics he espouses - few other leading Labour politicians have done so for many decades.
Time for a cange of policies rather than politicians
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 03:46 PM

Mr. Red nailed the ahem food but peteaberdeen has his finger on the pulse of England.

For arguments sake to reduce England to two words would start a fight.

Class entitlement

which the US has now surpassed with super capitalism oligarchy.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 02:33 AM

Acme - 17 Sep 17 - 10:38 AM

Friends who travel to England seem to delight in posting photos of their food when faced with the "English Breakfast." They always look like a full day's calories in one sitting, washed down with enough grease and salt to send one to the hospital. I'd question whether it's something you really want to brag about.


Very few people in the UK do eat what is called a full "English Breakfast" and way back in the day when like the Amish you talked of we burned more calories than we do today no-one ate a "Full English Breakfast" as their first meal of the day. Routine on a farm for the Horseman was to get up at around 4 o'clock in the morning and feed the heavy horses, he'd then go back and have a glass of small beer and eat some bread and cheese. Back to the horses to tack them up and lead them out (You could not work a horse immediately after feeding they had to stand for about an hour before they started work). The horses and farm hands would work for three or four hours then come in and have what is now called a "Full English Breakfast" - it becomes a different prospect after you have been at work for a few hours. Lunch back in the day for a farm labourer was a cold snack eaten outdoors and then a hot meal at the end of the working day after all the animals had been seen to and cared for. I would have thought that our Country Dweller would have known all that.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 04:01 AM

I'd much sooner have streaky bacon than back

make mine smokey..............


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 05:20 AM

What I do know, Bill Woodcock, is that you are harking back to that mythical golden age again. I'm surprised you didn't mention the lads leaning over the gate in their smocks, straw between what teeth they had left, saying ooo-arrr.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 05:57 AM

If a farm labourer had a hot meal at the end of the day then they were quite a well off farm labourer. And cheese seems at the luxury end too, I will give you bread and beer.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:44 AM

the only guy i ever knew who had the full english every day was a miner - his work was very hard so he never got fat. however eventually it caught up with him and he had a heart attack in his mid thirties.

anyway he's lying there in the hospital bed, and the doctor comes and asks him about his lifestyle. eventually they get to the breakfast. the doctor says, are you winding me up? this guy has been doing the whole thing - fried bread, fried egg, fried mushroom, fried sausage, fried tomatoes, fried bacon . buttered toast. fifteen or sixteen years - holidays as well.

the doctor said it was a wonder he'd lasted that long.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:45 AM

God heavens Shaw do you know Bill Woodcock? I somehow doubt it (Teribus does though).

But yes I was referring to bygone days and stated so clearly in my post, which oddly enough was agreeing in part with what you said about few people eating "Full English".

Odd thing about you and food Shaw, you are an expert and can state without equivocation where to buy the best pork sausages - yet you say you only eat them rarely as a treat - so where is the basis for comparison to say what is "best". Likewise, you are an expert on Cornish, or should that be Kernow, Pasties and can state similarly without equivocation who produces the "best" - yet you say you only eat three a year tops - so no basis for comparison there either.

David Carter(UK) you would be amazed at what foods were both cheap and common in those bygone days. Cheese most certainly was one of them - produced on damn near every single farm or toun in the country. What did you think they did with the milk produced? Sell it to the supermarket? Milk provided curds, whey, butter, cheese - Or did you think that "cottage cheese" and "ploughman's lunch" were modern day inventions by some celebrity chef?

"If a farm labourer had a hot meal at the end of the day then they were quite a well off farm labourer. And cheese seems at the luxury end too, I will give you bread and beer."

How much manual labour do you think you would get out of a man if all you fed him was bread and "small" beer (Note the "small" refers to type not size or quantity - very weak, the general population of England drank it before tea became common - more like flavoured water but at least it had been treated in the brewing process to kill off any bugs). Bet you are similarly of the mind that horses don't need feeding as they crop at grass. While the men were working the fields their womenfolk got fires going and cooked and baked and washed. First cooked meal of the day was a version of what we now call "a full English" - mainly because it was easy to do and provided what was needed for the rest of the day. Snack for lunch, the fires and later ranges were kept going during the day and the fuel would not be wasted so of course there was a hot meal in the evening it sustained and fortified but it was very simple, not talking three courses with fine wine here Mr. Carter, but a plate of thick soup or a broth, or a meat and vegetable stew. All very cheap all ingredients readily available.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 06:57 AM

Ploughmans Lunch is indeed a modern invention, dating back only to the 1950s.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 07:01 AM

What they would have of course was gruel made from wheat, provided that somebody had given then some wheat and milk. If you are talking about broth with meat, you are talking about much more recent times.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 07:03 AM

My opinions on Cornish pasties are my opinions. Try the pasties I recommend and you'll be glad you valued my opinions. Nowt else to say really. As for pork sausages, I eat them a lot and the remark I made about a rare treat was not to do with them at all. As a matter of fact we had them on Sunday evening. That literacy malarkey you're moaning about in another thread involves, among other things, careful reading. I recommend the practice. By the way, I heartily recommend the pork sausages made by my butcher, Moores of Kilkhampton and Bude. His lamb is to die for as well, reared as it is on his own farm. I've never eaten a decent supermarket sausage, though admittedly I haven't put myself through the pain of trying every available variety. The hallmark of a good butcher is his pork sausage. If he takes pride in that, the rest of his produce will be good. Apologies to lady butchers. I know there are some. There's a very good one at at a little farm shop outside Hatherleigh in Devon on the Holsworthy road, though it's a bit far for me to go for my sausages.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 07:50 AM

The sausages at New Laithe Farm butchers in Crosshills are wonderful. The pork sausage on its own is a work of culinary art and his seasonal specials are always worth a try. My favourite was last Christmas's 'Rudolph's Revenge'. Venison with a very pleasant but possibly painful dose of hot chili peppers. :-)

My lad in Manchester found an interesting sounding food the other day, 'Manchester egg'. Like a Scotch egg but a core of pickled egg surrounded by black pudding. I will see if he can bring me one on his next visit.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 08:05 AM

It is a bit tricky, the ploughman's lunch. It is certainly true that something was "packaged" in the 1970s and called a "Ploughman's lunch". However, that does not mean that various people including farm workers did not eat it beforehand. I dpnt have much fear in speculating that bread and cheese, for example, has been going as a lunch since bread and cheese were invented.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 11:32 AM

talking a lot of poppycock on internet threads such as this


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 01:03 PM

Not just on threads, Dick - We make it an art in pubs all over the country. The other Dave from Swinton that you know and I still have regular get togethers to 'talk bollocks' to each other after a few pints :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 01:08 PM

Waitrose make a decent Scotch egg with a black pudding surround. I don't want my bangers mucked about with by the addition of weird ingredients such as apple, leeks or chilli. It's a plain butcher's pork sausage for me, though I can countenance the occasional Cumberland jobbie without demur.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 02:49 AM

"What they would have of course was gruel made from wheat, provided that somebody had given then some wheat and milk. If you are talking about broth with meat, you are talking about much more recent times."

Why would anybody have to "give" them anything Mr. Carter? Farm Labourers and their families were provided cottages and, compared to todays standards, quite large plots of land, that they used for growing their own vegetables, keeping chickens, possibly a pig or even a cow.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:19 AM

"quite large plots of land, that they used for growing their own vegetables, keeping chickens, possibly a pig or even a cow."
There is a great deal of utter nonsense talked and written about idyllic rural life - especially among agricultural workers
Bothy labour as comparable to Bond Slavery – you signed on with a "master" for a set period and belonged to him until your term ran out
The hiring fairs were little more than those were animals were bought and sold – you were inspected and chosen or rejected as would be a work-horse
You were then herded together and accommodated in sheds – again like animals – usually a singly living space, men at one end, women at the other, often with only a blanket dividing them
Your work was comparable with that of a slave.
The bothy system, which also extended to northern Ireland and England, lasted right into the twentieth century, it virtually ceased to exist when a horrific bothy fire in Kirkintillough, outside Glasgow, killed ten Irish potato pickers in September, 1937.
Conditions in rural Scotland were little different in the rest of Britain, with rural workers having to fortify their meagre diets with game taken from common land or produce from 'gardens', little plots on the 'commons' where a few vegetables were grown.
The seizure of the Commons by the gentry led to widespread starvation and was marked by 'The Poaching Wars' which lasted for over a century and a half (1760-1914) and led to many thousands of rural dwellers being transported to Australia for the heinous crime of trying to feed their families
Far from the rosy picture of rural existence, still being painted right into the twentieth century, life in the countryside was as brutal and unfair as it was in industrial Britain
We recorded hours of descriptions of these conditions from East Anglican singer, Walter Pardon - men forced to go to sea by hunger, whole families driven into the workhouse – one remarkable account of a relative being forced to labour from dawn to dusk and, as he had no watch, having to judge knocking-off time by looking at the sky, covering one eye and, when you could see two stars with one eye, that as time to go home.   
Some of our finest literature, often deliberately neglected, covers this life – the writings of Joseph Arch and Samuel Bamford, or Cobbett' 'Rural Rides' being among the best
The two most comprehensive are E P Thomsons 'The Making of the English Working Class and Sir Howard Newby's 'The Deferential Worker'
A far cry from Roases 'round the cottage door and big breakfasts
Jim Carroll   

This description comes from David Kerr Cameron's 'The Ballad and the Plough' a remarkable work which sets bothy ballads in their social context
THE FARMTOUN CREW
The farmtouns bred hard men, and no wonder. They were forever moated with the kind of mud that sucked the boots off you and sank farm carts (coming home with their turnip-loads) up to the axle-trees. And such discomfort apart, there was a tyranny about the great farmtouns; their men were as firmly shackled by the cry of a hungry beast or a week of fine weather as any factory hand to the punch-clock at the plant gate.
The farmtoun day began before five o'clock when the bailie (the stockman) lifted his head from the cold pillow, and dragging on his trousers as he went, made blear-eyed for the byre, where his beasts were already bellowing to be fed. Indeed, on dairytouns with a milk herd the start was even earlier, with the dairy cattle¬man awake almost before some of the single men were in their bothy beds. In the summer he was up by four while the day was new-minted, stepping out of his cottar's house into that strangely- still world before sunrise, a world weird without movement. That time of the morning was like the dawn of creation or the last days of eternity. In winter he staggered into pitch darkness, swinging a stable lantern to light his feet through the mud of the farm road. A good bailie, like a good shepherd, was a loner. While he was pushing turnips by the barrowload from an adjoining shed to silence his hungry beasts or teasing fresh bedding straw under their hooves, the horsemen of the farmtoun slept on. They had an hour of sleep left, a half-hour at least. Then it was time to rise, to feed and groom their Clydesdales. The stable was warmer, anyway, from the horses' breath and grooming the beasts gave them an appetite before going to breakfast about a quarter to six. Appetite was a necessary aperitif, for whether he was married and cottared or single and bothy-housed, breakfast, like all the other meals of the day, had a quite predictable monotony: without fail, it would be brose, an instant-mix of oatmeal and hot water that could make cold porridge seem like haute cuisine.
The farmtouns did not encourage slow eaters, conversation or bouts of introspection between courses: the men would be back in the stable before six. There the grieve would already be waiting them, to give his orders. And even the dark of a winter morning that made it impossible for the ploughmen to see the gate of the field let alone the straight of the furrow, brought them no respite. Until such time as it came daylight the men would be sent to the barn to thresh and later to the corn loft to put a few quarters of oats through the fanner—the corn-dresser. Both were hard tasks that took their toll of a man's stamina and made him anxious to see the first streaks of dawn drawn across the corn-loft's skylight window. It was time then to yoke the plough and cold though that might be, with the frosty air cutting into his lungs, the horseman preferred it. There was a satisfaction at the plough, in good work, in watching the way the mouldboard flung the ribbon of the furrow unbroken on to its back; there was the steadying dialogue with his pair: encouragement as well as cursing reproach for at times they had him dancing almost between the plough stilts, doing a ballet in the bottom of the furrow.
At eleven it was time to unyoke, to return to the farmtoun and give his Clydesdales their feed before going for his own bite, oatmeal again, in a fresh disguise.
"Denner" was no more a lingering affair than breakfast but at least, back in the stable, there was time to take a seat on one of the cornkists—the large chests in which the horses' oats were stored —fill pipes and take stock of the world's affairs, or what little was known of them, for until the wireless spread its influence in the 1930s as a social integrator, news was late and often garbled by the time it reached the outlying farmtouns. It came piecemeal by the postman, who had it from the merchant, who had time to read newspapers.
The afternoon's shift—a "yoking" it was called in the North- East's Buchan area—was from one o'clock until six or, in winter, until darkness made work in the fields impossible. Then the ploughmen might return to the farmtoun without incurring the cutting edge of the grieve's tongue to stable their Clydesdales for the night. For their beasts it was the end of the day; not for the men. If there was an hour to spare before suppertime, the grieve could be counted on to see that they were not idle. They would have another hour of the barn-mill before they finished and the grieve's watch released them.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:25 AM

Well, Teribus, I have access to Overseers accounts and other poor law records concerning my family in the mid to late 18th century, and they certainly were given wheat at times. Whether its because they had to be or not I don't know, I doubt that they were just early benefit scroungers.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:25 AM

In Sidmouth one of the delicatessen type shops (I seem to remember a lot of cheese) has a sausage roll with a filling of black pudding, they insist there is no onion. Just my luck, I asked the day they had sold out.

Now I ask you what could be more English than a sausage roll, or black pudding than the two in one?

Now anyone know of a mail-order outfit that sell black pudding sans onion?


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:50 AM

Don't think anybody was ever stating that rural life was "idyllic". The subject under discussion was when "breakfast" was eaten.

Massive difference between the labour required to work the farm and the additional labour hired on to plant or to harvest. The latter were taken on at "Hiring Fairs". It was also common in those times that if you were drawing a wage you were fully expected to work for it - nobody was prepared to pay for idle hands, there was no intended cruelty in this, that was the work ethic of the day universally applied. Hiring was a means of obtaining a permanent position on a farm, those wishing to impress worked the hardest.

The landed gentry were not the ones to take over "common land" and enclose it - the section of rural society who were most guilty of that were the tenant farmers, who wanted land of their own so as not to be dependent on the good will of the land owner for their living.

"Forced to sea by hunger" - The choice was simple. You went where the work was otherwise you starved - fact of life back in those days in every country in the world, still is a fact of life in many countries today. Millions did precisely that and survived and prospered - had they not then the vast majority of us would not be here today.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 04:07 AM

Overseers? Poor Law Records? What on earth have they got to do with agricultural labour Mr. Carter? The post and the records you are describing relate to provisions for the poor and destitute who have already entered the workhouse.

The Overseers job was created in 1834 and his duties were as follows:

From 1834, administration of poor relief was transferred from the parish to the Poor Law Union. However, the collection of the poor rate within each parish continued to be performed by parish overseers.

Overseers performed a number of other local administrative duties relating to poor relief, education and health, often in conjunction with Union officials such as the Board of Guardians or the Relieving Officer.

The overseers' duties included such matters as compiling lists of those eligible for jury service, ensuring the maintenance of graveyards, providing and maintaining a fire engine, and protecting the village green from damage by cattle — in the latter case, they were empowered to sell any manure that was left behind!

The Local Government Act of 1894 transferred the civil functions of a parish to parish councils and parish meetings. However, the overseer's role as rate-collector continued until 1925 when a unified system of rating authorities was created.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 04:27 AM

" nobody was prepared to pay for idle hands,"
Yet workers were forced to endure conditions of near slavery to stay alive
It depends of which side you choose to support, I suppose
Rural life was brutal and those having to endure it were treated worse than valueed animals because they were replaceable
Your support for rural workers being forced to go to sea - underlines which side you have chosen
We left off being an itinerant people a thousand or so years ago - it's taken recent administrations to create a return to the good-old-days of life on the move
One of the least talked about aspects of life in 'the good old days' of rose covered cottages was the permanent rural unrest - with those seeking to better their lot being shipped off to Australia along with the poachers
As the land-grabbing enclosures began to bite, tied cottages became the order of the day which meant that the very roof over your head depended on total cap-doffing obedience.
In some parts of these islands the medieval practice of droit de seigneur put in a re-appearance, giving the owner of the land the right to 'first bite of the cherry' when one of his labourers married - Robert Clements, Lord Leitrim, leaned the dangers of that one when one of his victims drowned him in a roadside puddle for exercising his right to screw his wife on their wedding night.
"The landed gentry were not the ones to take over "common land" a"
What!!!!!
The landed gentry used their position as magistrates and their influences in Westminster to do exactly that - common land shrank to the few parks still in existence precisely because of that
Wealthy farmers cerainly were part of the land grabbing using the pretence of "improving rural economy", but the process was begun and carried in in the 12th century by the landed gentry - their role continued right into Industrial Revolution when the new Capitalist class - rural and urban, continued the practice with the active support of Parliament the particularly the House of Lords
It was the wealthy land owner, not the dependent tenant farmer who stole the land from under the people's feery and in doing so, also stole the food out of their mouths
You are not really attempting to blame the farmers for this centuries-old rape of Britain
In Scotland, land seizures, first to shoot game, later to graze sheep, led to enforced mass migrations of the rural working class to Canada - no unsimilar to what happened to famine-hit Ireland
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 05:05 AM

It is not a question of support. Merely stating what was normal and accepted as being the case in those times.

To somehow think that people should have acted according to present day mores and attitudes in bygone days is absolutely idiotic and totally pointless.

The rest of the post, another meaningless rant, is riddled with misinformation, misrepresentation and half truths. On Scottish clearances I would advise you to read a humourous, very tongue-in-cheek, piece by Robert Burns called "Address to Beelzebub" - It details what the Landowners wanted and what those cleared wished. It is a bit different to what you describe, but what would Burns know about it, he was only living and observing what was going on in real time.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 05:20 AM

"To somehow think that people should have acted according to present day mores and attitudes in bygone days is
Slave like conditions in rural Britain persisted long after slevery had been outlawed
To defend these conditions because they were "of their time" is "absolutely idiotic and totally pointless."
That would let hanging drawing and quatering, burninbg at the stake, witch drowning , the branque, the thumbscrew..... and every barbaric practice of Britain's past neatly off the hook
You seek to present a rosy picture of rural life where everybody is fed and treated fairly - it was long term inhumanity that lasted well into the twntieth centure and was only abandoned whan the workers won their own voice
We all know what you and your fellow Tories feel about the Trades Unions
It was never anything of the sort and it is a distortion of history to pretend otherwise
The present relevance to all this is that many of these practices - particularly enforced labour, are returning
We learn from our history - a little difficult through pink fog
Burns, by the way, was a radical who spent his life opposing these conditions
His own family were victims of land seizure when they were forced from their homes and their goods sold by 'roup'
I think this is all a bit pointless, don't you?
Address the facts that have been put up or accept that that is the way things were.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 05:48 AM

Grab yourself a copy of John Seymour's little paperback book Bring Me My Bow, Teribus. He had plenty of right-wing views that would be right up your alley, was a farmer all his life, he was fiercely self-sufficient and he hated the concept of a welfare state. But he railed against the industrialisation of the countryside and the baleful influence of the squire. To him, the true enemy of the people is the landlord. Now I shouldn't have told you that last bit, should I, because now you won't read it! Second-hand copies are dead cheap.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:00 AM

What all this, and virtually every injustice in history has its origins in greed - for power, for land, for wealthy and status
The can be no argument against the fact that it did bring progress - at a massive human cost pad by the poorest
But even the benefits are temporary when tied to profit
One of the great symblols of the enclosures is the hedgerows erected to divide off the seired land from the crude gaze of the hoi polloi"
THese bacame accepted as visually beautiful and a refuge for endangered wildlife
When rural capitalism in East Anglia went international, many hundreds of miles of these hedges were torn down to facilitate the giant machines used by the multinationals that now own most of the arable land
This has opened the land to the ravages of the east wind, which has stripped the topsoil away, leaving once rich farming lands virtual deserts - short-termism which is destroying Britain rapidly
The wealthy are not to be trusted with Britain's heritage, never mind the welfare of its people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:23 AM

and was only abandoned whan the workers won their own voice
We all know what you and your fellow Tories feel about the Trades Unions


The reforms were not achieved by "trades unions" Jim.
They were achieved by wealthy philanthropists and reformers, usually motivated by their Christian faith.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 07:02 AM

All of which has got what to do with when, what is now commonly referred to as, a "full English breakfast" was eaten?

As far as belonging to political parties goes, I'll leave that to ideologues such as yourselves. I have never been a member of a political party in my life and I do not believe I ever shall as I have never seen the need or advantage of being one. As for the recent crop of "professional politicians" I have scant respect for any of them, none of them have lived in the real world and they have never done an honest days work in their lives - they like you Shaw got paid attendance money totally divorced from actual effectiveness, or performance.

What Carroll seems to be permanently on the look out for is "pay-back" - in so doing he is onto a hiding to nothing - it does not exist and any attempt at it is doomed to failure as no "apology" for past deeds is ever accepted or deemed adequate. The following list:

" hanging drawing and quatering, burninbg at the stake, witch drowning , the branque, the thumbscrew..... and every barbaric practice of Britain's past neatly off the hook"

In what way let "off the hook"? Who is doing that? All I am saying is that they happened, at the time they occurred they were accepted as normal, legal punishments. None of them can be "undone" and I believe that these punishments were not restricted to Britain, "the branque", whatever that is, doesn't really sound all that British to me. Through the course of the history of the world I do not believe that barbaric practices were the sole domain of Britain - this I acknowledge, is a view far different from the ill-informed Anglophobe Carroll's.

"To defend these conditions because they were "of their time" is "absolutely idiotic and totally pointless."

Who is defending anything? Merely stating what was normal and accepted in times past. If you think I have "supported" anything, or "defended" anything on this thread then please provide a complete quotation of me doing so. If not, then please do not hold me accountable for things I have not done.

"You seek to present a rosy picture of rural life where everybody is fed and treated fairly"

Where? People obviously were fed, or they would have died out en-masse. You get no work out of starving people, therefore common sense and logic tell you that it would not be in the best self-interest of any farmer or land owner to starve those working for them. Would you care to tell me where and when I even mentioned "treatment" fair or otherwise? Tell me what was "fair treatment" in the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th & 20th centuries? Who gets to decide what "treatment" is fair and for whom? It clearly cannot be people from the future. So you look at the changes and what improvements and advances come with the passing of time, and I think we can all agree that in 2017 in any land you are far better off than you would have been living in 1317, 1417, etc, etc.

The practice of "enforced labour" is returning? Where? Are you saying that in the past those taken on a Hiring Fairs were subjected to "enforced labour"? They had a choice they either worked or they starved, that was the norm for the times they lived in. They went to the "Hiring Fair" actively seeking employment - nothing enforced about it. It provided the only opportunity open to those seeking a permanent position to get one.

"Burns, by the way, was a radical who spent his life opposing these conditions"

Don't know where you got that from. Burns commented on the events of his time and on the people he came across both good and bad. He applauded the aspirations of the French Revolution but abhorred the violence and hardship it inflicted on the French people.

"His own family were victims of land seizure when they were forced from their homes and their goods sold by 'roup'

Burns was a tenant farmer. What land of his, or his family was seized? The answer is of course none. Burns while he may have been a wonderful poet, a gifted and witty man, was also a very poor (As in incompetent) farmer. His attempts to make a living as a farmer consistently failed to the extent that in 18th century Scotland he could neither pay his rent to the landowner, or what he owed to his creditors. Burns and his family were not subject to land seizure they were subject to eviction. He was such a radical that he finally gained employment as a Customs Officer, who shortly after the outbreak of the French Revolutionary became a Officer in the Dumfries Militia (Great shame he did that, because it was through worry over a Taylor's bill for his uniform that he fell ill and died).

You didn't bother to read "Address to Beelzebub" did you?


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 07:05 AM

"The reforms were not achieved by "trades unions" Jim."
The reforms were achieved by men who were prepared to risk deportation and prison for the right to combine
They established the Trades Unions and your lote systematically destroyed them
Go look at the memorial in TOLPUDDLE , Dorset if you would dispute this
Or maybe you could look up Walter Pardon's description of his family's involvement with the re-establishment of George Edward's AWU after your "wealthy philanthropists" had destroyed it first time around
What planet are you on?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 08:02 AM

Glad you brought up Tolpuddle:

The Tolpuddle Martyrs were transported to Australia in 1834, for taking an oath that they would work to support each other and their families. The landowners were forcing them to work longer hours, reduced their wages, meaning starvation and deprivation for all. The oath was to hold back a portion of their produce, to enable them to feed their families, whilst reserving seed stock to grow their own food. Six men took this oath under a Yew tree in the village of Tolpuddle, Dorset. When the landlords learnt of this, they tried to charge the men with theft. The courts decided that as the men were starving, the landlords were the guilty ones, for not ensuring their wellbeing.

Just for David Carter (UK)'s edification, please note:

1: Hold back a portion of THEIR produce
2: Grow THEIR OWN food
3: Landlords responsible for the wellbeing of their tenants.

The charge was changed to a rigged one of blasphemy and treason that was quickly overturned but not before the men had been transported to Australia for a term of seven years. The men were pardoned in 1836, the pardon was granted on the grounds that the King, when Prince of Wales, became a Freemason, whose oaths did not include loyalty to the reigning monarch. As the King could not be transported, or seen to be guilty of treason against himself, the 'martyrs' had to be pardoned.

All but one returned to England, not that they stayed for very long all five crossed the Atlantic to eventually settle in Ontario in Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 08:19 AM

"People obviously were fed, or they would have died out en-masse. !
They died in their thousands - prematurely, their loives cut short by the appalling conditions that were forced on them
In 1835 the workhouse system was introduced where people were barely kept alive with what they wer fed and they had to work for that - they were paid with the meagre diets and a bed
Those workhouses remained into the twentieth century when Hammond and Gardinerand Frank Kidson visited them to collect folk songs
THis from J L and Barbara Hammonds @The village Labourer in the chapter, 'The last Labourers' Rvolt

The bands of men and boys who had given their rulers one moment of excitement and lively interest in the condition of the poor had made themselves liable to ferocious penalties. For the privileged classes had set up a code under which no labourer could take a single step for the improvement of the lot of his class without putting his life and liberties in a noose. It is true that the savage laws which had been passed against combination in 1799 and 1800 had been repealed in 1824, and that even under the less liberal Act of the following year, which rescinded the Act of 1824, it was no longer a penal offence to form a Trades Union. But it is easy to see that the labourers who tried to raise their wages were in fact on a shelving and most perilous slope. If they used threats or intimidation or molested or obstructed, either to get a labourer to join with them or to get an employer to make concessions, they were guilty of a misdemeanour punishable with three months' imprisonment. They were lucky if they ran no graver risk than this. Few of the prosecutions at the Special Commissions were under the Act of 1825. A body of men hold¬ing a meeting in a village where famine and unemployment were chronic, and where hardly any one had been taught to read or write, might very soon find themselves becoming what the Act of 1714 called a riotous assembly, and if a magis¬trate took alarm and read the Riot Act, and they did not disperse within one hour, every one of them might be punished as a felon. The hour's interval did not mean an hour's grace, for, as Mr. Justice Alderson told the court at Dorchester, within that hour ' all persons, even private individuals, may do anything, using force even to the last extremity to prevent the commission of a felony.'
There were at least three ways in which labourers meeting together to demonstrate for higher wages ran a risk of losing their lives, if any of their fellows got out of hand from of action which he had expected from it. The Governmes: are indisposed to take action, and Suffield, growing sicK arc impatient of their slow clocks, warns Melbourne in June tha; he cannot defend them. Melbourne replies that such a measure could not be maturely considered or passed during the agitation over the Reform Bill. Later in the monti there was a meeting between Suffield and Melbourne, of which unfortunately no record is preserved in the Memoir, with the result that Suffield declared in Parliament that the Government had a plan. In the autumn of 1831 an Act was placed ot the Statute Book which was the merest mockery of aE Suifield's hopes, empowering churchwardens or overseers to hire or lease, and under certain conditions to enclose, land up to a limit of fifty acres, for the employment of the poor. It is difficult to resist the belief that if the riots had lasted longer they might have forced the Government to accept the scheme, in the efficacy of which it had no faith, as the price of peace, and that the change in temperature recorded in Suffield's Diary after the middle of December marks the restoration of confidence at Whitehall…….

So perished the last hope of reform and reparation for the poor. The labourers' revolt was ended; and four hundred and fifty men had spent their freedom in vain. Of these exiles we have one final glimpse; it is in a letter from the Governor of Van Diemen's Land to Lord Goderich: ' If, my Lord, the evidence, or conduct, of particular individuals, can be relied on as proof of the efficiency or non-efficiency of transportation, I am sure that a strong case indeed could be made out in its favour. I might instance the rioters who arrived by the Eliza, several of whom died almost immediately from disease, induced apparently by despair. A great many of them went about dejected and stupefied with care and grief, and their situation after assignment was not for a long time much less unhappy.'

The situation of the Rural poor was made worse with the destruction of the cottage textile industries, when former home weavers were forced into dangerous factories and work in appalling conditions which cut their life expectancy by decades
For Burns - I suggest you read a decent biography and maybe listen to 'A Man's a Man For All that with an open mind
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 08:43 AM

People did die in their thousands - in some places on this earth they still do, for exactly the same reasons. But we are still here, as are the people in the countries where even now they are still dying in their thousands. The human race is NOT dying out, or in fear of extinction.

"If they used threats or intimidation or molested or obstructed, either to get a labourer to join with them or to get an employer to make concessions, they were guilty of a misdemeanour punishable with three months' imprisonment."

I would bloody well hope so to. Are you really trying to tell me that intimidation is right or justified? Are you saying that it is perfectly alright to molest people in order to force them to your will? Or obstruct them as they go about their peaceful daily lives? Is it alright to force someone to join an organisation against his or her will? Funny old freedom you seem to fighting for Carroll. That reads like a Bully-Boy's or a Thugs Charter.

As for Burns Carroll I apparently know a great deal more about him than you do - tell me again what land did he have seized?


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 09:02 AM

Go away Teribus - your attempts to defend this appalling system are pathetic, particularly when they resort to comparisons with the Third World
Burns father, William was in dispute with the landlord over improvements to the farm and he entered into a court case to decide the matter.
Due to landlord's demands and lack of funds, the family were evicted before the case could be settled the family were force off the land for non-payment of rent in 1784, William died later that year - not oly had the family lost their home but the strain of the case also killed the father
Ironically, eventually the courts ruled in favour of the family
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 09:07 AM

"Carroll. "
Do I take it that the return to this attempt as talking down is your white flag indicating yuo are unning out of steam?
When will you people grow up and behave like adults?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 09:13 AM

The post of overseer was created in 1598 by the Act for the Relief of the Poor. And they were responsible to the parish vestry.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 12:24 PM

the rich never change. there are still parts of the world where they have the opportunity to treat the poor as they were treated in the UK in the 18th, 19th and pre war 20th century, and they take that opportunity.

The relative affluence that we and our children have enjoyed is a relatively recent phenomenon historically. and it's more fragile than of middle class kids understand. i think many of them would be horrified to know how close we dance to the abyss.

though we have tried with'cradle to grave' caring policies = the consequences for people who don't have a role to play in our economy or don't fit in - leaves us with quite a few unhappy bunnies.

both my parents quite literally starved in the 1920's - suffered from deficiciency diseases from not having enough to eat.

i guess that's what many of us voted for with Brexit. i know JIm you have said 'now its payback time' the world is turning up on our doorstep and want their money back, the elgin marbles, the koh i noor diamond and Roger Casement's diaries.

the plain fact is that we can't undo everything perpetrated by the british empire, and furthermore most of our families were hardly beneficiaries of the said empire.

also few other countries opened their doors to immigrants in the way we did to commonwealth countries. remember Germany's gastarbeiter policy - and even that provoked race riots. FRance's policy to Algeria. our population was already very large for a small island.

I'm not saying we were great hosts. I remember schoolkids asking me why there no black footballers, or black people on TV in the 1970's. I tried to explain that we, Irish been through the immigrant thing in our time - and I knew it was frustrating


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: selby
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 12:28 PM

So apart from a breakfast and a good discussion what else defines the English


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 12:33 PM

"your attempts to defend this appalling system are pathetic"

What attempts to defend what system Jom?

Please give a quote where I have defended anything on this thread - all I have clearly stated was that such things happened. Now what has that got to do with when what is now known as a "full English breakfast" was eaten - my point was that it was not eaten immediately upon rising but after a period of hours of work during a rest break for the draft animals working the farm.

Ah so Jom it now changes from Robert Burns and HIS family to that of his father William Burns and HIS family. Even so I ask again what land was subject to seizure? That was your original contention wasn't it that ROBERT BURNS and HIS family was forced from their land by seizure. Not true was it? Call it what you like - you being ill-informed? - you deliberately misrepresenting the situation? - you lying?

By the way Jom, this is what you do in a discussion if some point you have made has been shown to be in error.

Perfectly correct David Carter (UK) my error and I apologise for it. The Parish Office of Overseer of the Poor was established in the 1597 Act For the Relief of the Poor. Fact still however remains that you are quoting the circumstances of the destitute, the poor and of vagrants and stating that they were the same as the circumstances and situations of those in employment permanent or temporary on a farm.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 12:55 PM

No idea Selby, I know what defines the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish in terms of nationality, the English, by their own hand, seem to have sunk from view decades ago - "kool Britannia" and all that.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 12:59 PM

Jim, the trades union movement arose following the wave of reforms in Victorian times, and as a result of them.
The reforms were driven by middle class philanthropists, mostly inspired by their Christian faith.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 01:01 PM

Maybe this helps to define the English. At least to other tribes :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 01:41 PM

If you voted for brexit Big Al, you voted for a lot more poverty.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 01:44 PM

"Jim, the trades union movement arose following the wave of reforms in Victorian times, and as a result of them."
The earliest form of Trades union was probably that instituted by Utopian Socialist Robert Owen in early 1800
The Chartist Movement (1838/48) embarked on the first formal attempt to institute them nationwide
Go read a book on the subject
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 02:50 PM

By the way -
"following the wave of reforms in Victorian times, "
Queen Victoria came to the throne in 1837 - 37 years after Owen's experiments in New Lanark slap in the middle of the Georgian period, a year before the Chartist movement got underway and three years after the Tolpuddle martyrs had been shipped of to Australia for trying to for a Trades Union
Her 'Victorian" style of rule did not evolve until at least ten years later
So much for your "Victorian philanthropists"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:42 PM

"...they like you Shaw got paid attendance money totally divorced from actual effectiveness, or performance."

Well, forum, he's referring again to my teaching career. We could ask him how he came to arrive at this negative interpretation of my effectiveness or performance when he doesn't know me, has never met me and, unless he can tell us differently, doesn't know who he can ask about my performance and effectiveness as a teacher.

You've been told off once today, Teribus. There something incredibly sad about you. I'm finding it quite hard to imagine how you could possibly be having a happy, carefree dotage. Life's too short, mate. You seriously need to calm yourself down and get off your high horse.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:44 PM

Owen's experiments all ended in failure.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 05:55 PM

i suppose it depends on how you define success. its like saying Brunel's projects were all failures - yet here we are still using his bridge.

maybe that's what defines us...an ability to see further than that the shopping basket costs threepence more this week.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 06:30 PM

If you can read this Thank a teacher.


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: bobad
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 07:11 PM

The practice of "enforced labour" is returning? Where?

The Global Slavery Index 2016


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Subject: RE: BS: What defines the English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 08:35 PM

"The practice of "enforced labour" is returning? Where?"
The British authorities have recently carried out a major swoop on suspected cases and has found there to be a serious problem of modern slavery, sex trafficking and domestic slavery being the most common
True to form, the media concentrated only on the criminal behaviour of a tiny handful (a single family) of Travellers and totally ignored the many hundreds of mainly indigenous others
Dell computers being sold to Britain have been found to have been producing using forced labour similar to that of the convicted Travellerss - hands up who has a Dell PC or laptop
British stores a crammed full of goods produced by workers who are dying due to the conditions they are forced to work in - who of you shops in Penneys?
The British unemployment benefit system now operates on a basis of 'take whatever menial task we offer you for whatever pittance that is paid, no matter whether you can support your family on it or not or we'll withdraw your benefit"
Virtual slave labour.
"Owen's experiments all ended in failure"
Of course they did - that's why he is referred to as "Utopian"
Others were more successful despite being imprisoned and deported for their efforts, yet the Right in Britain has gradually torn down what Tolpuddle and the like won and, as far as having a voice in the workplace and a survivable wage is concerned, have regressed the working people to the situation they were in in the first half on the nineteenth century.
Jim Carroll


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